People hate on Amazon because they perfected the art of online shopping before anyone else did. That's innovation - not a monopoly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scoots
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People hate on Amazon because they perfected the art of online shopping before anyone else did. That's innovation - not a monopoly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scoots
Nah.Quote:
Originally Posted by FlashBolt
I do not “hate” Amazon (they are just doing business the good old American way), but by the same token I will not shop Amazon — and I urge others not to as well — because I believe that their general labor practices are negligent.
That’s not hate; that’s good, old American pushback.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/busin...=.77860cd13b5e
Yes, they did raise their minimum wage to $15 (thank you Bernie Sanders), but even that is a bit suspect, as reported here:
https://www.wired.com/story/why-amaz...-minimum-wage/
Amazon raising their minimum pay actually screws their competitors more than Amazon. Amazon can afford it no problem, their competitors can't afford it as easily. Calling it a political victory is just politics.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crovash
If competitors can’t afford to pay workers $15 an hr in this day and age, they have a faulty business model and shouldn’t be in business.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scoots
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I guess a lot of businesses have faulty business models.Quote:
Originally Posted by DeW-Star
Per pew research:Quote:
Originally Posted by Scoots
Adjusted for inflation, the federal minimum wage peaked in 1968 at $8.68 (in 2016 dollars). Since it was last raised in 2009, to the current $7.25 per hour, the federal minimum has lost about 9.6% of its purchasing power to inflation. Back in 2015, The Economist estimated that, given how rich the U.S. is and the pattern among other advanced economies in the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, “one would expect America … to pay a minimum wage around $12 an hour.”
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank...-minimum-wage/
So, they can go under. What’s the problem with that?Quote:
Originally Posted by Scoots
They can afford it. But that's not the only thing they are paying. You should know there are taxes and other costs that go into hiring people.Quote:
Originally Posted by DeW-Star
No it’s a fact.Quote:
Originally Posted by FlashBolt
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That, and the fact that $15/hour in New York, New York is equivalent to $32/hour in Huntsville, AL.Quote:
Originally Posted by FlashBolt
"Ocasio-Cortez, commonly referred to as "AOC," repeatedly criticized luxury real estate developers during her campaign, claiming that their buildings hiked up rent prices and pushed low-income residents out of their neighborhoods."
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/p...rtment-complex
Ahhh, it's a fact because you said so. Okay, it's a fact. You win.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sick Of It All
Brilliant. She goes off criticizing people who make a lot of money and then price out lower income residents and as soon as she gets her hands on a lot of money, she lives in an expensive condo building that does the exact same thing. Talk about being a hypocrite. Must be nice to work as a bartender and then a year later, you're serving as a "public" figure and earn $190k while ruining 25,000-40,000 jobs paying an average of $150,000 per person, per year. I figured it out... AOC wants everyone to be poor and equally miserable except herself! Only she can earn $190k!!Quote:
Originally Posted by dbroncsinmo
I don’t know if it is all that brilliant, but Ocasio-Cortez appears to be both enterprising and successful. Her path is hardly innovative though; she is building off of a time-honored and effective “business” model in America, and certazinly where politics is no exception: deceive others for personal gain.Quote:
Originally Posted by FlashBolt
I do wonder why it irks you so.
Jealousy, maybe?
That’s majorQuote:
Originally Posted by dbroncsinmo
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Oddly enough there were taxes and other costs that went into hiring people then as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by FlashBolt
And fortunately we also just had a YUGGGGEEE tax and jobs act passed that should easily allow for this type of re-investment in human capital. A rising tide, should lift all boats.
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A national minimum wage would obviously be the most applicable to those states such as Huntsville, Alabama. The ones that have seen the biggest degradations in purchasing power by the lack of minimum wage growth keeping up with inflation.Quote:
Originally Posted by dbroncsinmo
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and this is where I have issues with Ms Cortez. Honey, you live in NYC. **** is expensive. Stop fighting it. While I get expenses have become crazy, but where does she live (guessing its a snazzy building)? Who paid for her campaign?Quote:
Originally Posted by dbroncsinmo
I love her message, but I don't think she looks at things individually, instead just following a black/white blueprint that anyone/anything with a lot of money must die.
well, to be fair, anytime someone marches to the flag of, "fighting for the little guy", then takes on the big guy lifestyle and makes a ton of money, their message becomes conflicted.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crovash
Is rather them become rich and take care of the little guy then be consistent and become rich and screw over the little guy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkeye15
I know you aren’t saying otherwise, but this is a capitalist society and she still can look out for herself while looking out for the little guy. I don’t see the conflict there.
That’s just opposition messaging. If anything it’s selfless if they put forward legislation that would hurt them as well.
They try the same messaging with Bernie and the number of houses he has. Never mind it’s from his wife’s money and he’s not living nearly as extravagantly as they always try to lead you to believe for someone in his position.
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Oh I understand dude. I simply mean, when the message comes from someone making nearly 200k a year, and living in a beautiful home, it enters the world of double standard. It's a catch-22, because of course nobody would WANT to remain poor and struggling, if they had the opportunity to do better.Quote:
Originally Posted by DeW-Star
My point is, she will always get criticized from the right now, because she has such socialist/liberal ideals, and yet is now enjoying the fruits of the American Dream.
Think Al Gore on climate change. Dude was out there pioneering emissions and saving energy while living ina a mansion and pumping out 17 times the normal rate of energy of a typical resident of his state. Is he right in his message? Yes. Is Leo DiCaprio right in his support, while getting on a private jet to Cannes that will waste more fuel than I will ever use? Yes. But as a messenger, you now get judged by what YOU live as, not entirely about what your message is.
News Flash.
You may want to write this down.
Your wages have nothing to do with how much money you need to live on. Your wages have everything to do with how much money the job you are performing is worth to the employer. Raising minimum wage does not increase the value of the worker. It increases the cost of the worker.
Low end jobs (burger flippers, pizza deliverers, lawn people etc) are not worth $15 an hour.
Pass a law with unreasonable minimum wage and the following will happen…
People will lose jobs as management will deem those jobs too expensive to pay.
Prices will go up as management keeps some people on but at a higher cost.
People on the low end will be forced to work harder since there will be just as much work and less people to do that work.
Probably a combination of the concepts above but there will be less people working. Bet in it.
A Big Mac meal is about $7. Patrons will not pay much more than that. They will brown bag or find something else. If this happens, less jobs are needed.
Ownership will simply not make less money to pay low end people more money. This will never happen. Ownership will go with less people working much harder and will automate as much as possible. If ownership cannot get rid of low paying employees, they will automate out higher paid employees to compensate. Bottom line…there will be less jobs.
Ownership's profit margins will remain the same (might even go up with the tax advantages of purchasing additional equipment.)
$15 minimum wage is a terrible idea. It will hurt the people it is most intended to help.
Agreed, but I think the hypocrisy rings much more true when it comes to climate change for reasons like those you point out above.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkeye15
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like Rocky IIIQuote:
Originally Posted by Hawkeye15
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yeah but then Paulie lost all his money after he whupped the Russian, so he went back to identifiable.Quote:
Originally Posted by ewing
it's the old, "do as I say, not as I do" mentality. Tough for some to swallow.Quote:
Originally Posted by DeW-Star
My point was not to defend her by any stretch, but to point out that hypocrisy is rampant in politics (I could come up with countless “whatabouts” to compare with “fighting for the little guy”).Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkeye15
oh god dude, you would shut PSD down due to lack of space with that post.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crovash
Plenty of studies have shown otherwise. Including analysis on what was recently done in Seattle which had a very accelerated jump.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sluggo1
And the one report that came out bashing it, was severely trashed by fellow economists for its statistical method flaws. Flaws that their own authors eventually admitted to. Never mind there data wasn’t fully released.
I’d rather go for a UBI, but that seems to be a ways away in the States until the older generation dies off.
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Speaking of Seattle…Quote:
Originally Posted by DeW-Star
Couple on FOX News (Gasp!!!) recently owned two Subway Restaurants (hate it when the refer to Subway Sandwich shops as restaurants). One in Seattle, one outside the Seattle area.
Seattle started $15 minimum wages.
To compensate for the new wage, the Seattle Subway laid off employees, cut hours to reduce costs and raised the price of sandwiches. The owners said their clients were "price sensitive" and ordered less. The store is in danger of closing.
The store outside of Seattle continues to do fine.
You can come up with all the studies and statistics you want, I'll take reality. How many of these economists ever work a job like these? Not too many.
Related scenario…my employees all make in the $20 an hour range. If they have to work overtime, I am required to pay time and a half which makes their "minimum wage" for overtime $30. The job they do is not worth $30 an hour so it never gets paid. We haven't paid overtime in years. If overtime is needed, I do it or the the wife does it. I push them (gently) to get as much done as possible, get the various machines set up (automation) and I stay after hours or come in on a Saturday or Sunday and run the work. I doubt if scenarios like that show up on any study. This is common in small businesses.
Business owners, regardless of the size of the business, resent paying more than the job is worth.
Business owners, regardless of the size of the business, resent being forced to increase their expenses at the cost of their bottom line They will not do this. They will find a want to offset the expense.
Layoffs
Automation
Higher prices.
Thanks for giving me an example of one shop in all of Seattle.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sluggo1
I’ll take the studies and statistics that are, wait for it, reality. Not some BS one off narrative you can pick or choose.
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Then let's talk about reality. I live in Seattle and if you go there you will find PLENTY of Subways. Contrary to your beliefs, Seattle is not some barren wasteland of Subways because it's now too expensive to operate one there thanks to the minimum wage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sluggo1
If a single Subway in Seattle shuts down after the minimum wage increase, it's because that manager/owner sucks and not because of the minimum wage increase, because all the other Subways are still in business.
to counter your concerns (and I have them too), this will also cause businesses to operate at a more efficient clip, and find new methods of operations. At some point, taking a burger order and handing it to a customer was going to automation anyways, but I do get your point, even if some economists don't agree necessarily. Common sense tells us cost will rise of goods if you force the labor market to take on more cost. But there are plenty of other factors to consider.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sluggo1
In her defense, Ocasio-Cortez no longer qualifies for low-income housing, whether or not she wants it. That said, the prudent thing to have done would have been to find an apartment (if available) in a mixed income unit situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkeye15
Those that can’t compete, die. Law of the jungle.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sluggo1
Its stupid. Knowing that if everyone stop using products with palm oil would save the rain forest lands and amazing creatures doesn’t mean you can’t use the soap in a public bathroom. I’m sure she had realtor that showed her places that would suit her needs and she took one just like anyone else would. If she gets in bed with the people she spoke out against on the campaign trail as a politician then we have something to talk aboutQuote:
Originally Posted by Crovash
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Pretty ironic that a $15 min wage is seen as devastating to businesses and workers while tariffs on industries that reduce competition and raise prices are seen as good for businesses and workers.
And lol at fast food joints having to lay of workers because of a $15 min wage. The US is the fattest country in the world those places are always going to be making profit.
With all things being fair, there is some truth to this.
Being forced to pay more than something is worth (labor) is an unfair restriction.
If all this happens and business is forced to operate more efficiently…then comes the call for $20 minimum wage and Universal Basic Income because there are now less jobs and higher prices.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkeye15
And round and round we go.
As with all political debates. There is some truth to it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sluggo1
Paying too much for labor is bad, but paying too little is also bad. It would be just as bad for the economy to have no minimum wage and have a multitude of people working for $3.50 an hour as it would be if we made the minimum wage everywhere $33.50 an hour.