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Yeah I really don’t know about nyc, nor have I paid much attention to what’s going on with this. I do know that she didn’t do this herself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkeye15
Like I said before in this thread, she’s young, idealistic, and a bit overzealous. I was too when I was 28. She’ll moderate some with age and experience.
well she is new, and wants to save the world. I hope her enthusiasm doesn't die as she gains more experience and refinement, which she badly needs.Quote:
Originally Posted by benny01
good flickQuote:
Originally Posted by flips333
Also, congestion? Outside some cities, the US has a ton of room.
Yep same here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkeye15
Is it true that the Amazon location isn't even in her district? It would be really funny for everyone to attack her for this only to find out it won't affect her district.
I haven't been up there in a while and I didn't realize that the Second Avenue subway was open.Quote:
Originally Posted by flips333
How may stations are there and how far does it go?i
That's irrelevant here. She has a lot of pull because it's near her district. The attention she can bring still exists. Just because she is in the 14th district doesn't mean she isn't capable of pulling some strings. It's the 3rd district. Literally ten minutes away from where I live and a few minutes from her district.Quote:
Originally Posted by dbroncos78087
Is notQuote:
Originally Posted by dbroncos78087
But it covers Astoria and other parts of queens that surround LIC.
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I believe she majored in foreign affairs and minored in economics. I minored in economics as well and let me tell ya, it's incredibly easy to pass if you just remember some of the formulas and definitions. There's not much to it other than that. I'd reckon her curriculum was the same. As someone already mentioned, this is an office building where employees will be working at least 300 days of the year rather than a stadium that will be used for events only. It's simply not even remotely the same discussion. Arenas are designed to generate tourism. It works for some places and not for others. I don't want to pick on AOC because this still could go through without her input but she is out vocally making a case that this was a "win" for NYC. It's not. Her case that those jobs would increase rental prices and congest NYC is simply shortsighted because that area is already balloon'd up in terms of pricing. With or without Amazon's presence there, it's already too expensive. She said we could use the $3 billion to spend on roads, better transit, better schools, etc., but does not realize there is no $3 billion to be had. That money only exists if Amazon EARNS $3 billion. So instead of Amazon coming here, setting a precadent with high tech paying jobs (which NYC desperately needs considering it is heavily finance/business-related jobs that earn money here) and creating thousands of jobs/commercial activity, we get nothing. No $3 billion, same slow transit, and the rent prices still increase.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sluggo1
It's a few minutes from her district. She has input. This not being in her district is irrelevant. When I go to community boards designated from my area, there are other community board members from other districts that attend.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sick Of It All
To be clear, are you saying it’s not in her district?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sick Of It All
Been open for over two years now. It's the Q line that used to be express for the Astoria route. It now goes through upper East Manhattan. From what I know, it's much needed in that area.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sluggo1
The whole issue is the housing market.Quote:
Originally Posted by FlashBolt
NYC has a shortage of affordable housing, if you’re in the middle class and don’t get help you’re ****ed.
Studios in the pure boroughs are going 1200-1500, two bedrooms are 1800 now.
Brooklyn is basically like living in Manhattan, you have to be well off to be able to live in some parts there.
LIC is right across the bridge from Manhattan and will soon become just as expensive to live there as in Brooklyn. That Amazon deal would have raised the cost of rent around the area by a **** load and reach parts of her district as well, it all connects.
Like i said before LIC is one of the most heavily under construction areas in nyc right now.
I understand why they were against it, but at the same time they would of provided a lot of jobs.
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Ahhh, I don't disagree with your middle class getting screwed. That's always been the case here. Lower class gets government benefits (welfare), upper class are making too much to be affected, while middle class are stuck in between paying taxes and not getting enough benefits.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sick Of It All
Just to go over your points:
1) Studios actually go for much more.
https://www.apartments.com/long-island-city-ny/
I remember looking to purchase a studio or 1-bedroom in downtown Brookyln and it was over $1,000/sq foot. That was two years ago. It's around $1,200 in most areas now. Two bedrooms in east LIC and DUMBO is easily over $3,000.
2) Agreed. DUMBO is a booming area for lots of tech workers.
3) It would have raised rent but NYC has the largest amount of government housing. DeBlasio was working and is still working on expanding it. I'm not saying it would happen but the additional revenue would have helped everyone. It's already too expensive and rent prices have been increasing every year. Amazon being there wouldn't prevent it. NYC is just too damn expensive, period.
4) Ehh, most of the areas in LIC are residential. It was designated opportunity zoning because they need commercial activity. I drive around there to pick up some fantastic burgers around that area. Mostly condos being built and there are quite a lot that are not sold.
I get your point. It's very understandable and the rent increase would have been the biggest issue here. I just don't see how it overcomes the vast amount of tax revenue Amazon would have brought along with a growing commercial structure around that area.
YesQuote:
Originally Posted by dbroncos78087
It’s not in her district, but Astoria is right next to LIC and other areas are not far from it like Corona and College point, it would affect all those areas.
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https://streeteasy.com/for-sale/long-island-city
These prices are insane. The people around this area wouldn't have been able to afford these units anyways.
Google offered free high speed internet for everyone in SF. Literally all of the city as a free utility, including covering the city with free wifi internet access. People fought it so Google said okay and took their extra money home.
I've seen SF screw themselves out of things over and over with one hand while screwing their populace over with the other.
If NY doesn't want it it's not like it hurts Amazon. NY wanted Amazon for the jobs and the name and the prestige. Now it's not going to happen. So what?
You're making too much sense. These big companies don't need to fight through this much legislation and tantrum to get what they want. I can't stress this enough. I will admit, Amazon coming here likely pushes my home value up 5-10% depending on what else happens after. But that wasn't and isn't my concern. I don't work in the tech industry nor would apply to Amazon. This was simply a mistake and would have helped this neighborhood a lot. Too much focus on what Bezos is worth and not enough about how this could and would have helped thousands of people.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scoots
This would have only continued to bring more out of towners to NY, pushing rents up and pushing middle class workers to live further away from Manhattan. It would have continued the income inequality in NY where the top executives earn bigger profits while the middle class stays struggling from paycheck to paycheck, Amazon already has had a bad reputation for Employee rights. To top it off New yorkers would have been paying in taxes to subsidize the richest company in america to be here to create that havoc.
Yes, the 5% of property owners would have benefited from property value going up while everyone else gets a stick in their behind to have to deal with the commute, the overcrowding and the higher rents.
Other companies can come to NY if they have less demands and are less of a tax burden to the middle class
Bezos’ net worth is not so much at the heart of the issue, but rather the attitude of the company (though his worth probably influences this attitude). See your second sentence. It is for the most part accurate, and at the same time, it reflects an attitude in contemporary America that (to me) is at the very least, arrogant.Quote:
Originally Posted by FlashBolt
I am not going to argue that this move would not have a positive impact on “thousands of people.” It probably would. It would also potentially have a negative impact on thousands of people, and if Amazon does not have the desire to address those in good faith — and no, they are not just tantrums, they are people’s lives — then maybe there is a silver lining to this cloud after all.
In fact, it strikes me that it is Amazon that is having the tantrum.
But the problem of NY getting too expensive isn't an amazon issue is it?Quote:
Originally Posted by infernoscurse
If you can't afford to live in NY then move somewhere else. This is the nature of the world. Being wistful of the distant past when NY wasn't crazy expensive doesn't have any effect on the reality.
Part of the issue is that historical preservation societies and NIMBY and expensive permits and incredible restrictions on construction has meant that housing density in NY hasn't significantly increased in 30 years. The result of that in a successful area is ALWAYS increasing price.
That said, I have no issue with an area not wanting to give tax breaks to bring in business, but when a business looks at the cost and benefits of doing business in location A vs B it's certainly not evil for them to try to get location A to balance out some of the negatives (in NY that is ALL costs) with tax breaks.
Also the headache that mass transportation for that area would have created is crazy. The 7 line is one of the most used and then you adding a **** lot more riders?
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Is not an Amazon issue, gentrification is the biggest reason why, but Amazon would have just made it even worst.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scoots
I loved almost my whole life in the south Bronx. Right now is being gentrified and what used to be a ****** place to live in will become pretty expensive for many. I’ll take another decade to really clean out that area.
My uncle bought a house there for 60k back in the 90’s. Right now he can sell that house for about 500k at the lowest. In a couple of years it will be about 750k.
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Free stuff is never free. I absolutely guarantee that there were many incredibly sketchy things that Google wanted. They've long since abandon their "don't be evil" mantra.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scoots
It was without monetary expense to the consumers and to the city. They were absolutely going to scrape usage information. But still it would literally have saved the public billions by now.Quote:
Originally Posted by dbroncos78087
It's like with Facebook, if you don't pay for the service then you really aren't the customer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scoots
1) NY is in dire need of tech professionals in case you didn't know. It's not diverse enough in that sector. My brother works in the tech field and it's very limited here. Lots of NY'ers with computer science degrees could have benefited from this.Quote:
Originally Posted by infernoscurse
2) Problem in NY is the taxes.. Everything is expensive BECAUSE of taxes. Do your research. City+Local taxes are one of the highest. Everything is marked a premium because of taxes. Go farther away from the city and you'll see lower prices. Wonder why?
3) You're talking about warehouse workers. In that case, that's plausible but people have to understand that warehouse jobs aren't easy for any company. It's just Amazon is the biggest company in the world (or was for a short period of time) and they were easy targets. Their tech jobs reputation isn't as bad as you are making it out to be.
4) No, NY'ers aren't paying any taxes. You don't know what you're talking about. It's a tax INCENTIVE. Just like it's a tax incentive for me to purchase an electric over gas. The only money saved is my money. I don't qualify for the tax incentive if I don't purchase an electric vehicle.
5) The overcrowding and higher rents that will always exist because NY is a fabolous urban city? If Amazon isn't there, do you think it gets better? I don't. And it shouldn't. Times are changing so people have to adapt. If you can't stay in the city, move elsewhere. A lot of people have benefited from being in NY so let's not pretend that we aren't the MOST DIVERSE city for a reason.
MTA is inefficient. That's not Amazon's fault. It's the role of the government to stop handing them money and be more efficient. It cost us more than any other mass transit system to repair or create new tunnel lines. We hire more people to do the work that other countries can do with far less people. There is a massive amount of corruption and a lack of accountability. Not to mention our transit system is far too ancient so it's going to take a massive overhaul to truly fix these problems. If you want to know how corrupt MTA really is and how they work with government leaders, they recently just spent millions of dollars on the train platforms in Astoria. Service was shut-down for 7-9 months. What did we get from it? Artwork, new stairs, and a nice LED screen telling us when the next train was coming. This doesn't solve the congestion problem that many NY'ers have a problem with. It was a waste of taxpayer's money to a large extent. If we want to solve the congestion issue, it's not by disallowing companies from moving in. It's to have an overhaul of MTA and figure out why they're grossly mismanaging funds because they get billions in government subsidies every year. Billions that NYer's are paying for and every month, the service gets worse.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sick Of It All
Amazon would have brought in more jobs, more tax revenue, and more economic activity. I'm not sure why you think this is even the same as if Amazon went to some rural area. NYC is already one of the most expensive places. Everyone knows it will only get more expensive. The effect isn't as huge as some people think. How much do you want to bet, with or without Amazon, rents will increase in surrounding areas? How much do you wanna bet that five months from now, our trains will still be slow?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sick Of It All
For sure. Google wants user data. But why do people pretend this is a zero-sum game? Do people honestly think user data won't be taken if any other service were used? The point is, these big companies aren't looking to destroy a city. They're looking to grow their company. And it's foolish and ignorant to disregard their presence just because they are a huge company. They didn't start huge, remember that. Amazon was founded in a garage by initially selling books. They grew because they provided a service everyone could use. Everyone loves two-free day shipping and having the items they want without having to drive to get it. To assume Amazon doesn't benefit the lives of millions of people? Does AOC have Amazon prime? I bet she does.Quote:
Originally Posted by dbroncos78087
Ya but you can apply that to all parts of the country. Why aren't people in the Rust Belt not moving across country for jobs if there aren't anymore where they live? People have built lives and families in these places.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scoots
It's ironic though that as capital accumulates in urban centers, and more people move to them, that people who are already established in these centers are forced to leave because they can't afford to live there anymore as more jobs and people move to them.
I agree. It's unfair in most aspects but that's how life has always been. People moved from continents, countries, etc., on a larger scale. It's simply the product and there is always bad/good to it. But I think this is a good deal that would have helped NYC. Scratch that, I know this would have been good. We desperately need those jobs in these areas.Quote:
Originally Posted by statquo
I know things will get expensive regardless of Amazon, am saying in that area it would have happen faster.Quote:
Originally Posted by FlashBolt
And trains being slow is not a problem as malfunctions, but my point is the 7 line is one of the most crowded lines and it would have created a bigger issue to that line.
Their are pros and cons to that situation and I get it, but I think for the most part NYC will be alright with or without Amazon. I think other cities would be more affected positively by them getting them to locate there.
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Wait this is your argument? Yeah no **** they would, but another 25,000+ people won't be nowQuote:
Originally Posted by dbroncos78087
The other hilarious argument is "oh good now that 3 billion can go to the schools, police, firefighters, etc..."
No actually nobody gets anything now
I just hope you apply this to the Socialist agenda of "Free Tuition, and free that"....Quote:
Originally Posted by dbroncos78087
I wonder many people will mistakenly think I am a republican on here
But I thought the argument was that those people who got those jobs would be New Yorkers from the local area. Are the people that would benefit from the giveaway part of the existing community? Or are they going to be transplants to the community and price existing people out of the job and housing markets?Quote:
Originally Posted by papipapsmanny
Heh, you and I both know why the 7 train is exploding in terms of how crowded it is.. A large Hispanic population in that area. And no disrespect but my cousin lives in Jackson Heights and I know it sounds discriminatory but they are very rude on the trains and constantly shove. I can't imagine taking the 7 train. Good thing it is a ten minute drive from where I live.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sick Of It All
I used to live in Elmhurst and rode the 7 plenty. If you honestly tell the difference between subway rides around NYC you’re nuts. This is just a gross stereotype.Quote:
Originally Posted by FlashBolt
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So the truth is stereotype to you? My cousin takes that train ride every day to work and since it's the closest line to her home. Hispanic population in NYC is most dense in Queens. How is this stereotype? It's literally statistics. Throw every name or label you want at me. Notice you said "used to" and "rode." When was the last time you rode it? Do you want a picture next time of the racial demographics? I can have that sent to you on Monday, sir. And no, I don't keep a racial chart of who rides which train. It's just a common fact Hispanics are mainly in the Jackson Heights, Corona, etc., area, Asians are mainly in Flushing/Chinatown/Brooklyn, and Indians are next to Jackson Heights as well. What other names you got?Quote:
Originally Posted by GGGGG-Men
Your last paragraph is an important thing to note. Even though tax incentives aren’t taxes refunds in the sense the city is paying them the money. It is lost revenues that maybe other companies would come in and fill the void for.Quote:
Originally Posted by infernoscurse
For example if Amazon didn’t choose Virginia, google and other companies were vying to get in there as well. It turns out that google is still going to expand in Va. but you have to look at the other side of cost benefit of other companies mitigating these jobs by taking their space up.
That said, I’m excited for Amazon to come to crystal city, Va. But I hate corporate welfare and believe it should be outlawed. I can kind of see why NY backed out. Their subsidies were a high multitude greater than what Va gave them to come.
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Less revenue or no revenue. You tell me.Quote:
Originally Posted by DeW-Star
That’s not necessarily true. Other businesses can still step in. Businesses that would pay full taxes. There’s still cost benefit analysis to be done. But people saying it’s a tax incentive and not addressing that offset are being either disingenuous or ignorant as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by papipapsmanny
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