Printable View
its tough... he has so much help to cover up for his weakness but he still hasnt had the support curry has had or hell even durant has had... its just something i cant argue in terms of peak... giannis regular season peak is insanity... i have 0 issues if you would take kobe/curry over him though... its just toughQuote:
Originally Posted by KnicksorBust
The fun thing about bringing Giannis into the conversation is we haven't even seen his best yet imo. He's going to have season where he finds a way to become a league average or better 3pt shooter and then it's like LeBron in Miami level of cheat code.Quote:
Originally Posted by More-Than-Most
Even if we look at him now though he does have a great case. Here is an MVP averaging an efficient 30-14-6 while making all-defensive 1st team on a top team. That's special.
Is his opinion valid when it matches yours?Quote:
Originally Posted by KnicksorBust
I like to think I'm pretty flexible. I'm down with MJ, KAJ, LeBron, Russell, Wilt, Shaq, Magic, Larry. I'd enjoy having a discussion about any one of those guys. Maybe even a few more names. But Elgin Baylor is a 0x MVP and a 0x NBA Champion. You ain't the GOAT with 0 MVPs and 0 rings.Quote:
Originally Posted by NYKalltheway
Why not? It's a a team sport. Why is it inconceivable that the best player may not be a part of the best team?Quote:
Originally Posted by KnicksorBust
Of course not. That happens all the time in every sport during individual seasons. However, in basketball an individual player has significantly more impact because there are only 5 players at a time and a basketball player can play an entire game. Therefore, to me, it is inconceivable that the greatest player of all-time would never be considered the league MVP or ever win a championship. Here is further proof that he had opportunities to prove his GOAT status and just choked:Quote:
Originally Posted by NYKalltheway
1962 NBA Finals Game 7
Baylor = 13 for 40 with 6 fouls in a 3pt loss
1963 NBA Finals Game 6
Baylor = 11 for 24 in a 3pt loss
1964 NBA 1st Round Game 6
Baylor = 11 for 32 in a season ending loss
1965 = injured
1966 NBA Finals Game 7
Baylor = 6 for 22 in a 2pt loss
1967 NBA 1st round
Baylor = shoots a combined 28 for 76 while being swept
1968 NBA Finals Game 5
Baylor = shoots 9 for 26 in a 3pt loss
1969 NBA Finals (horrendous performances
Game 3 = 4 for 18 from the field in a 6pt loss
Game 4 = 2 for 14 from the field in a 2pt loss
Game 5 = 4 for 13 from the field with 5 fouls
Game 6 = plays well
Game 7 = 8 for 22 from the field in a 2pt loss
This is the greatest player of all-time? If you are a superstar player for over 10 years... which Elgin Baylor definitely was in the 60s. Then that means you have had so many chances to win a title that to win 0 is a mark AGAINST your legacy. Especially when the playoffs was only 2 rounds instead of 4 rounds like it is now. Combine that with the most glaring fact that he never even won an MVP and it's absurd to say he is the GOAT.
I'm not a big fan of Baylor cuz of the clash with wilt but some of those aren't really chokes. Like did bron choke the year he pushed the champion celtics to 7 with his 47 win team or whatever they were, think they were win less without him that year.Quote:
Originally Posted by KnicksorBust
Outside that legendary duel in g7, bron shot 32% games 1 thru 6
I mean, the Kerr/Curry system brought out the best in KD too, didn't it? Once he abandoned the offense in his fed up year, yeah he could shine but the team suffered as a whole. When he went down they went right back to running their motion offense and tore up what was left of the West and snuck out 2 wins before bowing out in the Finals. Its alot easier to have a coach with a system than the player who can unlock it all to the highest degree. You really think KD could have led the same squad further despite never once displaying that ability before? Even in the RS it was obvious who made the team click. Iso KD had degraded the team cuz hes simply not a good enough playmakerQuote:
Originally Posted by Saddletramp
Besides, I think you guys overblow the situation, M.Jackson wasted possessions running post ups for Klay and Barnes alike but there were some obvious developments with Curry taking reigns of the offense from a scoring perspective. It was only a matter of time before Curry became the "sky ****er" as they say. KD had MVP caliber teammates with some great defensive support, and a solid bench most years. Lets not act like he was toiling away ala Tmac in Orlando. KD squared off and got beat. In fact, Curry had better post seasons like 3 or 4x before sending him to the Hamptons.
The year before that KD missed the loff's due to an injury plagued season that we wont hold against him but Curry won the Chip this year so the standard has been set.
In 2014 KD had his MVP season but arguably his least productive postseason outside of his failures before jumping ship. I swear a younger Curry without his alleged All-Star (David Lee at the time) put a bigger scare into those championship/finals Caliber Spurs that KD lost to. This year Curry lost in R.1 to my Clips but we through the kitchen sink at him and he was without Bogut at the time. The year prior he beat the Nuggets and scared the **** outta San Antonio so Im kind of looking at these 2 years in conjunction with each other. KD got locked down by the Grizz and held him to his worst series but its worth noting they had lost RWB to Pat Bevs knees. So lets not ignore how much RWB helped open up KD's game if we're mentioning the likes of Dray and Klay.
Rest of the list goes like so
09 Wade - Arguably better than some peak Bron years so we might've underrated him
09 Kobe - Kobe swore he played better in 2010 leading up to the Finals than he did the prior year, in terms of offensive efficiency, its crazy how consistent he was VS the West those 3 Finals trips.
08' 119 ORTG, 33.4 Usage%
09' 119 ORTG, 31.8 usg%
10' 119 ORTG, 31.4 usg%
Thats legit MJ territory, I remember vividly how he tortured the Suns, even slapping Gentry on the ***. The difference in his overall playoff lines usually came down to the Finals where the Celtics just overloaded his side of the floor, 98 ORTG in 08 and 108 in 2010. The Magic had the best defense in the league but they didn't really lockdown on star scorers so much as the support around them. The one team that did give Kobe alot of trouble was the uber athletic Thunder when they were starting to show signs of being a future power. Overall Im going with 2009 because I think he had more in the tank defensively (though how he played free saftey against the Celtics in 2010 deserves high praise) and was just fully honed in on making this 3bigman rotation work. He brought out the best in Pau.
Then its prolly Curry for me
Dirk, KG next in some order
Drob, KD, Malone and Chuck all have equally strong cases next.
I gotta fit West, Oscar and Tmac in these tiers somehow. I know you wouldn't worry about their fit today given their shooting prowess but what of West's inability to go left? They had far more stringient rules on palming back then, can we just assume everyone gets better handles in todays rules too?
Also, Pistol Pete may very well have been the first Curry but he played in the era without the 3pt line, that shot selection limited his efficiency compared to West who would attack from the midrange but in todays NBA, how much of that would be inverted? Does Piston become better than West or does West superior IQ translate to better shot selection even in todays NBA?
I thought this was a Peak thread. GIANNIS Peak is above Kobe’sQuote:
Originally Posted by KnicksorBust
Not if it doesn't translate into the post season, but it very well might this yearQuote:
Originally Posted by IKnowHoops
Cool. All I know is Durant is Durant no matter the cast and without knowing who else is on “my team”, I want the guy that flourishes no matter the situation. I’m not sure if Curry would be Curry with <insert random coach here> and <insert random players here>. I know Durant will blend better than about a dozen other guys at this point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronz
But you do you.
Not only is Elgin Baylor the GOAT, he wasn't even the best player on his own team...Quote:
Originally Posted by NYKalltheway
Rookie coach who never coached a NBA basketball game. Klay Thompson who had zero NBA awards. Draymond Green who never started a NBA game. Yet this is the team Curry had when the “2nd greatest peak player of all time” joined a 2014 MVP candidate and the 2014 all star MVP going into 2015. Yet Curry won a championship.
Basically Curry is beating every player ever not named Jordan with a rookie coach.