OFFICIAL G.O.A.T Peak Rankings - #13

Generally when discussing the GOAT player it is important that you look at their career. MVPs / Rings / All-NBA Teams / etc. But this ranking throws all that out the window. 1 game. At their absolute best. Who you taking?

#1.) Michael Jordan
#2.) LeBron James
#3.) Shaquille O'Neal
#4.) Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
#5.) Wilt Chamberlain
#6.) Larry Bird
#7.) Hakeem Olajuwon
#8.) Magic Johnson
#9.) Tim Duncan
#10.) Moses Malone
#11.) Bill Russell
#12.) Kawhi Leonard
#13.)
#14.)
#15.)
#16.)
#17.)
#18.)
#19.)
#20.)
#21.)
#22.)
#23.)
#24.)
#25.)

After narrowly missing his shot at #12, does Kevin Durant snag #13?

Im leaning Kobe 09 or Wade 09, not sure.

Looking more into the Durant case, this is where the parameters of your game matter. As a secondary star, KD is among the goats by virtue of being a 7ft sniper and having a good enough floor game to kill you on closeouts other ways. Off the ball, why wouldn't you want KD? 1v1 hes unguardable individually, BUT if hes the guy actually doing the heavy lifting and carrying the offense as its fulcrom with the brunt of the defense focused on stopping him above all, hes not as special. Hes always been at his best when surrounded by multiple playmakers that keep his decision making to a minimum. I mean, the playoffs the Dubs ran through everyone he posted a ridiculous 68 TS%. His best non-Warriors year was 63%, unsurprisingly it was the year he made the Finals as the teams best player but with 2 HOF level playmakers in Harden and RWB (both would go on to lead the league in assists once granted a greater role).

That said, I think other stars can approximate that value as a secondary star in a spaced out offense but provide more as the hub of an offense, Curry included. And I dont even have Curry next.

Still focusing more on the Curry vs KD case, I checked out the on/off data again. Heres the raw per36 numbers for KD:

Year One
With Curry: 27.1PTS (66.5 TS%) - 5AST/2.2 t.o. (+16.2)
W/Out Curry: 26.9PTS (61.3 TS%) - 5.9AST/3.0 t.o. (+1.6)

Year Two (Thx to injuries, he spent roughly half his time with Curry)
With Curry: 26.1PTS (67.8 TS%) - 5.5AST/2.2 t.o (+9.9).
W/Out Curry: 29.6PTS (60.7 TS%) - 5.8AST/3.4 t.o. (+0.4)

Year Three (1866Mins with vs 835 without)
With Curry: 24.4PTS (65.4 TS%) - 5.8AST/2.7 t.o. (+12.7)
W/Out Curry: 32.8PTS (59.7 TS%) - 6.7AST/3.7 t.o. (0.0)

The loss in efficiency is for the reasons you would think, less layups, less corner 3's, more mid range jumpers and an increased playmaking load that naturally leads to more turnovers. Tho for him the playmaking uptick is hardly worth the trade off. That final year was when KD was reluctant to run the team offense full time and went more into iso mode. He kind of took away from teammates that year, its partly why the team was less effective and why his individual numbers take a bigger leap, but lets look at Curry now.



Year One (1114 minutes without KD)
With KD: 25.4PTS (64.0 TS%) - 6.9AST/3.0 t.o. (+16.2)
W/Out KD: 29.9PTS (60.6 TS%) - 7.5AST/3.6 t.o. (+10.6)

Year Two (404 Minutes without)
With KD: 26.3PTS (67.0 TS%) - 7.1AST/3.3 t.o (+9.9).
W/Out KD: 40.2PTS (68.6 TS%) - 6.1AST/3.7 t.o. (+13.1)

Year Three (only played 465 minutes without KD)
With KD: 27.7PTS (65.9 TS%) - 5.6AST/2.9 t.o. (+12.7)
W/Out KD: 34.4PTS (59.0 TS%) - 5.5AST/3.4 t.o. (+2.5)


Interesting trend, with regards to which player was holding back more of his own offense theres no question its the reigning MVP who just got done posting historic seasonal averages. Its open knowledge that Curry allowed KD to fit in like a glove by holding back. Its why when he was the guy leading the charge without the other, the team was playing at a superior level. This is more evident in games where either star is missing.

I could be off by a game or 2 but IIRC Curry has about a 70 win pace without KD and KD has a 50 win pace without Curry. I dont know the strength of schedule or margin of victory but thats a sizable gap regardless.

When Kobe and Shaq were together, the team contended so long as Shaq was around. I dont think those 2 examples are coincidences, they indicate a greater level of manipulation on a team impact level. For all his shooting skill, at the end of the day Curry is a floor general, he could turn a role player like Iggy into a FMVP, what did people think he could get out of a guy like KD? That they were on the same team, that they led several teams before that, that they went h2h should make this an easy debate.



And neither one sniffs Wade or Kobe imo.

Definitely Walton. He was a dominant defender, rebounder, passer, and scorer. Short prime but controlled the game more then anyone left


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Curry.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chronz

Im leaning Kobe 09 or Wade 09, not sure.

Looking more into the Durant case, this is where the parameters of your game matter. As a secondary star, KD is among the goats by virtue of being a 7ft sniper and having a good enough floor game to kill you on closeouts other ways. Off the ball, why wouldn't you want KD? 1v1 hes unguardable individually, BUT if hes the guy actually doing the heavy lifting and carrying the offense as its fulcrom with the brunt of the defense focused on stopping him above all, hes not as special. Hes always been at his best when surrounded by multiple playmakers that keep his decision making to a minimum. I mean, the playoffs the Dubs ran through everyone he posted a ridiculous 68 TS%. His best non-Warriors year was 63%, unsurprisingly it was the year he made the Finals as the teams best player but with 2 HOF level playmakers in Harden and RWB (both would go on to lead the league in assists once granted a greater role).

That said, I think other stars can approximate that value as a secondary star in a spaced out offense but provide more as the hub of an offense, Curry included. And I dont even have Curry next.

Still focusing more on the Curry vs KD case, I checked out the on/off data again. Heres the raw per36 numbers for KD:

Year One
With Curry: 27.1PTS (66.5 TS%) - 5AST/2.2 t.o. (+16.2)
W/Out Curry: 26.9PTS (61.3 TS%) - 5.9AST/3.0 t.o. (+1.6)

Year Two (Thx to injuries, he spent roughly half his time with Curry)
With Curry: 26.1PTS (67.8 TS%) - 5.5AST/2.2 t.o (+9.9).
W/Out Curry: 29.6PTS (60.7 TS%) - 5.8AST/3.4 t.o. (+0.4)

Year Three (1866Mins with vs 835 without)
With Curry: 24.4PTS (65.4 TS%) - 5.8AST/2.7 t.o. (+12.7)
W/Out Curry: 32.8PTS (59.7 TS%) - 6.7AST/3.7 t.o. (0.0)

The loss in efficiency is for the reasons you would think, less layups, less corner 3's, more mid range jumpers and an increased playmaking load that naturally leads to more turnovers. Tho for him the playmaking uptick is hardly worth the trade off. That final year was when KD was reluctant to run the team offense full time and went more into iso mode. He kind of took away from teammates that year, its partly why the team was less effective and why his individual numbers take a bigger leap, but lets look at Curry now.



Year One (1114 minutes without KD)
With KD: 25.4PTS (64.0 TS%) - 6.9AST/3.0 t.o. (+16.2)
W/Out KD: 29.9PTS (60.6 TS%) - 7.5AST/3.6 t.o. (+10.6)

Year Two (404 Minutes without)
With KD: 26.3PTS (67.0 TS%) - 7.1AST/3.3 t.o (+9.9).
W/Out KD: 40.2PTS (68.6 TS%) - 6.1AST/3.7 t.o. (+13.1)

Year Three (only played 465 minutes without KD)
With KD: 27.7PTS (65.9 TS%) - 5.6AST/2.9 t.o. (+12.7)
W/Out KD: 34.4PTS (59.0 TS%) - 5.5AST/3.4 t.o. (+2.5)


Interesting trend, with regards to which player was holding back more of his own offense theres no question its the reigning MVP who just got done posting historic seasonal averages. Its open knowledge that Curry allowed KD to fit in like a glove by holding back. Its why when he was the guy leading the charge without the other, the team was playing at a superior level. This is more evident in games where either star is missing.

I could be off by a game or 2 but IIRC Curry has about a 70 win pace without KD and KD has a 50 win pace without Curry. I dont know the strength of schedule or margin of victory but thats a sizable gap regardless.

When Kobe and Shaq were together, the team contended so long as Shaq was around. I dont think those 2 examples are coincidences, they indicate a greater level of manipulation on a team impact level. For all his shooting skill, at the end of the day Curry is a floor general, he could turn a role player like Iggy into a FMVP, what did people think he could get out of a guy like KD? That they were on the same team, that they led several teams before that, that they went h2h should make this an easy debate.



And neither one sniffs Wade or Kobe imo.

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Honestly Curry in 15-16 had a top 3 dominant regular season. Dude sat out of so many 4th quarters because it was already a blowout that it was bananas. I'm going with him here.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ewing

Definitely Walton. He was a dominant defender, rebounder, passer, and scorer. Short prime but controlled the game more then anyone left


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I'm convinced Walton would be better than Russell in the modern game.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KnicksorBust

I'm convinced Walton would be better than Russell in the modern game.

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I don’t know how you could pick Curry based on his super efficiency while blowing out tankers in the regular season. How does that beat out Walton controlling the game on defense, offense, on the glass, in a championship role?


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by KnicksorBust

Honestly Curry in 15-16 had a top 3 dominant regular season. Dude sat out of so many 4th quarters because it was already a blowout that it was bananas. I'm going with him here.

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And then he had an epic choke in the finals so by your criteria of 1 game winner takes all how can you pick Curry knowing he’ll likely fold under that kind of pressure?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chronz

Im leaning Kobe 09 or Wade 09, not sure.

Looking more into the Durant case, this is where the parameters of your game matter. As a secondary star, KD is among the goats by virtue of being a 7ft sniper and having a good enough floor game to kill you on closeouts other ways. Off the ball, why wouldn't you want KD? 1v1 hes unguardable individually, BUT if hes the guy actually doing the heavy lifting and carrying the offense as its fulcrom with the brunt of the defense focused on stopping him above all, hes not as special. Hes always been at his best when surrounded by multiple playmakers that keep his decision making to a minimum. I mean, the playoffs the Dubs ran through everyone he posted a ridiculous 68 TS%. His best non-Warriors year was 63%, unsurprisingly it was the year he made the Finals as the teams best player but with 2 HOF level playmakers in Harden and RWB (both would go on to lead the league in assists once granted a greater role).

That said, I think other stars can approximate that value as a secondary star in a spaced out offense but provide more as the hub of an offense, Curry included. And I dont even have Curry next.

Still focusing more on the Curry vs KD case, I checked out the on/off data again. Heres the raw per36 numbers for KD:

Year One
With Curry: 27.1PTS (66.5 TS%) - 5AST/2.2 t.o. (+16.2)
W/Out Curry: 26.9PTS (61.3 TS%) - 5.9AST/3.0 t.o. (+1.6)

Year Two (Thx to injuries, he spent roughly half his time with Curry)
With Curry: 26.1PTS (67.8 TS%) - 5.5AST/2.2 t.o (+9.9).
W/Out Curry: 29.6PTS (60.7 TS%) - 5.8AST/3.4 t.o. (+0.4)

Year Three (1866Mins with vs 835 without)
With Curry: 24.4PTS (65.4 TS%) - 5.8AST/2.7 t.o. (+12.7)
W/Out Curry: 32.8PTS (59.7 TS%) - 6.7AST/3.7 t.o. (0.0)

The loss in efficiency is for the reasons you would think, less layups, less corner 3's, more mid range jumpers and an increased playmaking load that naturally leads to more turnovers. Tho for him the playmaking uptick is hardly worth the trade off. That final year was when KD was reluctant to run the team offense full time and went more into iso mode. He kind of took away from teammates that year, its partly why the team was less effective and why his individual numbers take a bigger leap, but lets look at Curry now.



Year One (1114 minutes without KD)
With KD: 25.4PTS (64.0 TS%) - 6.9AST/3.0 t.o. (+16.2)
W/Out KD: 29.9PTS (60.6 TS%) - 7.5AST/3.6 t.o. (+10.6)

Year Two (404 Minutes without)
With KD: 26.3PTS (67.0 TS%) - 7.1AST/3.3 t.o (+9.9).
W/Out KD: 40.2PTS (68.6 TS%) - 6.1AST/3.7 t.o. (+13.1)

Year Three (only played 465 minutes without KD)
With KD: 27.7PTS (65.9 TS%) - 5.6AST/2.9 t.o. (+12.7)
W/Out KD: 34.4PTS (59.0 TS%) - 5.5AST/3.4 t.o. (+2.5)


Interesting trend, with regards to which player was holding back more of his own offense theres no question its the reigning MVP who just got done posting historic seasonal averages. Its open knowledge that Curry allowed KD to fit in like a glove by holding back. Its why when he was the guy leading the charge without the other, the team was playing at a superior level. This is more evident in games where either star is missing.

I could be off by a game or 2 but IIRC Curry has about a 70 win pace without KD and KD has a 50 win pace without Curry. I dont know the strength of schedule or margin of victory but thats a sizable gap regardless.

When Kobe and Shaq were together, the team contended so long as Shaq was around. I dont think those 2 examples are coincidences, they indicate a greater level of manipulation on a team impact level. For all his shooting skill, at the end of the day Curry is a floor general, he could turn a role player like Iggy into a FMVP, what did people think he could get out of a guy like KD? That they were on the same team, that they led several teams before that, that they went h2h should make this an easy debate.



And neither one sniffs Wade or Kobe imo.

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The right answer is Wade brother, Wade has multiple seasons better than Kobes best.

Still Wade. He has several legitimate cases, including the 2006 finals, the most dominant performance since the merger of the NBA and ABA; the 2010 playoffs, when he was putting up 33 points, 6.8 assists, 5.6 rebounds, 1.6 steals, 1.6 blocks and 40% from three on 7.4 a game; or his monstrous 2008-09 season.

What’s the score? Can’t see the votes.

Absolutely hilarious that Kawhi is already voted for. Completely ruins this. Dude hasn't even gotten an MVP.
Look how good the raptors still are without him.

He's great but he's been on stacked teams his entire career. Since he was a rookie.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by blams

Absolutely hilarious that Kawhi is already voted for. Completely ruins this. Dude hasn't even gotten an MVP.
Look how good the raptors still are without him.

He's great but he's been on stacked teams his entire career. Since he was a rookie.

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It’s definitely laughable

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KnicksorBust

After narrowly missing his shot at #12, does Kevin Durant snag #13?

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he def should but people are stupid tbh... they worry about his decision to leave but ignore the teams around jordan/magic/kobes and so on down the list.... hell if anything duncan should be the goat then... duncan won how many rings with parker and gino? imagine if he had pippen or kobe or so on down the list... jesus