OFFICIAL G.O.A.T Peak Rankings - #13

Generally when discussing the GOAT player it is important that you look at their career. MVPs / Rings / All-NBA Teams / etc. But this ranking throws all that out the window. 1 game. At their absolute best. Who you taking?

#1.) Michael Jordan
#2.) LeBron James
#3.) Shaquille O'Neal
#4.) Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
#5.) Wilt Chamberlain
#6.) Larry Bird
#7.) Hakeem Olajuwon
#8.) Magic Johnson
#9.) Tim Duncan
#10.) Moses Malone
#11.) Bill Russell
#12.) Kawhi Leonard
#13.)
#14.)
#15.)
#16.)
#17.)
#18.)
#19.)
#20.)
#21.)
#22.)
#23.)
#24.)
#25.)

After narrowly missing his shot at #12, does Kevin Durant snag #13?

Im leaning Kobe 09 or Wade 09, not sure.

Looking more into the Durant case, this is where the parameters of your game matter. As a secondary star, KD is among the goats by virtue of being a 7ft sniper and having a good enough floor game to kill you on closeouts other ways. Off the ball, why wouldn't you want KD? 1v1 hes unguardable individually, BUT if hes the guy actually doing the heavy lifting and carrying the offense as its fulcrom with the brunt of the defense focused on stopping him above all, hes not as special. Hes always been at his best when surrounded by multiple playmakers that keep his decision making to a minimum. I mean, the playoffs the Dubs ran through everyone he posted a ridiculous 68 TS%. His best non-Warriors year was 63%, unsurprisingly it was the year he made the Finals as the teams best player but with 2 HOF level playmakers in Harden and RWB (both would go on to lead the league in assists once granted a greater role).

That said, I think other stars can approximate that value as a secondary star in a spaced out offense but provide more as the hub of an offense, Curry included. And I dont even have Curry next.

Still focusing more on the Curry vs KD case, I checked out the on/off data again. Heres the raw per36 numbers for KD:

Year One
With Curry: 27.1PTS (66.5 TS%) - 5AST/2.2 t.o. (+16.2)
W/Out Curry: 26.9PTS (61.3 TS%) - 5.9AST/3.0 t.o. (+1.6)

Year Two (Thx to injuries, he spent roughly half his time with Curry)
With Curry: 26.1PTS (67.8 TS%) - 5.5AST/2.2 t.o (+9.9).
W/Out Curry: 29.6PTS (60.7 TS%) - 5.8AST/3.4 t.o. (+0.4)

Year Three (1866Mins with vs 835 without)
With Curry: 24.4PTS (65.4 TS%) - 5.8AST/2.7 t.o. (+12.7)
W/Out Curry: 32.8PTS (59.7 TS%) - 6.7AST/3.7 t.o. (0.0)

The loss in efficiency is for the reasons you would think, less layups, less corner 3's, more mid range jumpers and an increased playmaking load that naturally leads to more turnovers. Tho for him the playmaking uptick is hardly worth the trade off. That final year was when KD was reluctant to run the team offense full time and went more into iso mode. He kind of took away from teammates that year, its partly why the team was less effective and why his individual numbers take a bigger leap, but lets look at Curry now.



Year One (1114 minutes without KD)
With KD: 25.4PTS (64.0 TS%) - 6.9AST/3.0 t.o. (+16.2)
W/Out KD: 29.9PTS (60.6 TS%) - 7.5AST/3.6 t.o. (+10.6)

Year Two (404 Minutes without)
With KD: 26.3PTS (67.0 TS%) - 7.1AST/3.3 t.o (+9.9).
W/Out KD: 40.2PTS (68.6 TS%) - 6.1AST/3.7 t.o. (+13.1)

Year Three (only played 465 minutes without KD)
With KD: 27.7PTS (65.9 TS%) - 5.6AST/2.9 t.o. (+12.7)
W/Out KD: 34.4PTS (59.0 TS%) - 5.5AST/3.4 t.o. (+2.5)


Interesting trend, with regards to which player was holding back more of his own offense theres no question its the reigning MVP who just got done posting historic seasonal averages. Its open knowledge that Curry allowed KD to fit in like a glove by holding back. Its why when he was the guy leading the charge without the other, the team was playing at a superior level. This is more evident in games where either star is missing.

I could be off by a game or 2 but IIRC Curry has about a 70 win pace without KD and KD has a 50 win pace without Curry. I dont know the strength of schedule or margin of victory but thats a sizable gap regardless.

When Kobe and Shaq were together, the team contended so long as Shaq was around. I dont think those 2 examples are coincidences, they indicate a greater level of manipulation on a team impact level. For all his shooting skill, at the end of the day Curry is a floor general, he could turn a role player like Iggy into a FMVP, what did people think he could get out of a guy like KD? That they were on the same team, that they led several teams before that, that they went h2h should make this an easy debate.



And neither one sniffs Wade or Kobe imo.

Definitely Walton. He was a dominant defender, rebounder, passer, and scorer. Short prime but controlled the game more then anyone left


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Curry.

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Originally Posted by Chronz

Im leaning Kobe 09 or Wade 09, not sure.

Looking more into the Durant case, this is where the parameters of your game matter. As a secondary star, KD is among the goats by virtue of being a 7ft sniper and having a good enough floor game to kill you on closeouts other ways. Off the ball, why wouldn't you want KD? 1v1 hes unguardable individually, BUT if hes the guy actually doing the heavy lifting and carrying the offense as its fulcrom with the brunt of the defense focused on stopping him above all, hes not as special. Hes always been at his best when surrounded by multiple playmakers that keep his decision making to a minimum. I mean, the playoffs the Dubs ran through everyone he posted a ridiculous 68 TS%. His best non-Warriors year was 63%, unsurprisingly it was the year he made the Finals as the teams best player but with 2 HOF level playmakers in Harden and RWB (both would go on to lead the league in assists once granted a greater role).

That said, I think other stars can approximate that value as a secondary star in a spaced out offense but provide more as the hub of an offense, Curry included. And I dont even have Curry next.

Still focusing more on the Curry vs KD case, I checked out the on/off data again. Heres the raw per36 numbers for KD:

Year One
With Curry: 27.1PTS (66.5 TS%) - 5AST/2.2 t.o. (+16.2)
W/Out Curry: 26.9PTS (61.3 TS%) - 5.9AST/3.0 t.o. (+1.6)

Year Two (Thx to injuries, he spent roughly half his time with Curry)
With Curry: 26.1PTS (67.8 TS%) - 5.5AST/2.2 t.o (+9.9).
W/Out Curry: 29.6PTS (60.7 TS%) - 5.8AST/3.4 t.o. (+0.4)

Year Three (1866Mins with vs 835 without)
With Curry: 24.4PTS (65.4 TS%) - 5.8AST/2.7 t.o. (+12.7)
W/Out Curry: 32.8PTS (59.7 TS%) - 6.7AST/3.7 t.o. (0.0)

The loss in efficiency is for the reasons you would think, less layups, less corner 3's, more mid range jumpers and an increased playmaking load that naturally leads to more turnovers. Tho for him the playmaking uptick is hardly worth the trade off. That final year was when KD was reluctant to run the team offense full time and went more into iso mode. He kind of took away from teammates that year, its partly why the team was less effective and why his individual numbers take a bigger leap, but lets look at Curry now.



Year One (1114 minutes without KD)
With KD: 25.4PTS (64.0 TS%) - 6.9AST/3.0 t.o. (+16.2)
W/Out KD: 29.9PTS (60.6 TS%) - 7.5AST/3.6 t.o. (+10.6)

Year Two (404 Minutes without)
With KD: 26.3PTS (67.0 TS%) - 7.1AST/3.3 t.o (+9.9).
W/Out KD: 40.2PTS (68.6 TS%) - 6.1AST/3.7 t.o. (+13.1)

Year Three (only played 465 minutes without KD)
With KD: 27.7PTS (65.9 TS%) - 5.6AST/2.9 t.o. (+12.7)
W/Out KD: 34.4PTS (59.0 TS%) - 5.5AST/3.4 t.o. (+2.5)


Interesting trend, with regards to which player was holding back more of his own offense theres no question its the reigning MVP who just got done posting historic seasonal averages. Its open knowledge that Curry allowed KD to fit in like a glove by holding back. Its why when he was the guy leading the charge without the other, the team was playing at a superior level. This is more evident in games where either star is missing.

I could be off by a game or 2 but IIRC Curry has about a 70 win pace without KD and KD has a 50 win pace without Curry. I dont know the strength of schedule or margin of victory but thats a sizable gap regardless.

When Kobe and Shaq were together, the team contended so long as Shaq was around. I dont think those 2 examples are coincidences, they indicate a greater level of manipulation on a team impact level. For all his shooting skill, at the end of the day Curry is a floor general, he could turn a role player like Iggy into a FMVP, what did people think he could get out of a guy like KD? That they were on the same team, that they led several teams before that, that they went h2h should make this an easy debate.



And neither one sniffs Wade or Kobe imo.

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Honestly Curry in 15-16 had a top 3 dominant regular season. Dude sat out of so many 4th quarters because it was already a blowout that it was bananas. I'm going with him here.

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Originally Posted by ewing

Definitely Walton. He was a dominant defender, rebounder, passer, and scorer. Short prime but controlled the game more then anyone left


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I'm convinced Walton would be better than Russell in the modern game.

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Originally Posted by KnicksorBust

I'm convinced Walton would be better than Russell in the modern game.

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I don’t know how you could pick Curry based on his super efficiency while blowing out tankers in the regular season. How does that beat out Walton controlling the game on defense, offense, on the glass, in a championship role?


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Originally Posted by KnicksorBust

Honestly Curry in 15-16 had a top 3 dominant regular season. Dude sat out of so many 4th quarters because it was already a blowout that it was bananas. I'm going with him here.

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And then he had an epic choke in the finals so by your criteria of 1 game winner takes all how can you pick Curry knowing he’ll likely fold under that kind of pressure?

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Originally Posted by Chronz

Im leaning Kobe 09 or Wade 09, not sure.

Looking more into the Durant case, this is where the parameters of your game matter. As a secondary star, KD is among the goats by virtue of being a 7ft sniper and having a good enough floor game to kill you on closeouts other ways. Off the ball, why wouldn't you want KD? 1v1 hes unguardable individually, BUT if hes the guy actually doing the heavy lifting and carrying the offense as its fulcrom with the brunt of the defense focused on stopping him above all, hes not as special. Hes always been at his best when surrounded by multiple playmakers that keep his decision making to a minimum. I mean, the playoffs the Dubs ran through everyone he posted a ridiculous 68 TS%. His best non-Warriors year was 63%, unsurprisingly it was the year he made the Finals as the teams best player but with 2 HOF level playmakers in Harden and RWB (both would go on to lead the league in assists once granted a greater role).

That said, I think other stars can approximate that value as a secondary star in a spaced out offense but provide more as the hub of an offense, Curry included. And I dont even have Curry next.

Still focusing more on the Curry vs KD case, I checked out the on/off data again. Heres the raw per36 numbers for KD:

Year One
With Curry: 27.1PTS (66.5 TS%) - 5AST/2.2 t.o. (+16.2)
W/Out Curry: 26.9PTS (61.3 TS%) - 5.9AST/3.0 t.o. (+1.6)

Year Two (Thx to injuries, he spent roughly half his time with Curry)
With Curry: 26.1PTS (67.8 TS%) - 5.5AST/2.2 t.o (+9.9).
W/Out Curry: 29.6PTS (60.7 TS%) - 5.8AST/3.4 t.o. (+0.4)

Year Three (1866Mins with vs 835 without)
With Curry: 24.4PTS (65.4 TS%) - 5.8AST/2.7 t.o. (+12.7)
W/Out Curry: 32.8PTS (59.7 TS%) - 6.7AST/3.7 t.o. (0.0)

The loss in efficiency is for the reasons you would think, less layups, less corner 3's, more mid range jumpers and an increased playmaking load that naturally leads to more turnovers. Tho for him the playmaking uptick is hardly worth the trade off. That final year was when KD was reluctant to run the team offense full time and went more into iso mode. He kind of took away from teammates that year, its partly why the team was less effective and why his individual numbers take a bigger leap, but lets look at Curry now.



Year One (1114 minutes without KD)
With KD: 25.4PTS (64.0 TS%) - 6.9AST/3.0 t.o. (+16.2)
W/Out KD: 29.9PTS (60.6 TS%) - 7.5AST/3.6 t.o. (+10.6)

Year Two (404 Minutes without)
With KD: 26.3PTS (67.0 TS%) - 7.1AST/3.3 t.o (+9.9).
W/Out KD: 40.2PTS (68.6 TS%) - 6.1AST/3.7 t.o. (+13.1)

Year Three (only played 465 minutes without KD)
With KD: 27.7PTS (65.9 TS%) - 5.6AST/2.9 t.o. (+12.7)
W/Out KD: 34.4PTS (59.0 TS%) - 5.5AST/3.4 t.o. (+2.5)


Interesting trend, with regards to which player was holding back more of his own offense theres no question its the reigning MVP who just got done posting historic seasonal averages. Its open knowledge that Curry allowed KD to fit in like a glove by holding back. Its why when he was the guy leading the charge without the other, the team was playing at a superior level. This is more evident in games where either star is missing.

I could be off by a game or 2 but IIRC Curry has about a 70 win pace without KD and KD has a 50 win pace without Curry. I dont know the strength of schedule or margin of victory but thats a sizable gap regardless.

When Kobe and Shaq were together, the team contended so long as Shaq was around. I dont think those 2 examples are coincidences, they indicate a greater level of manipulation on a team impact level. For all his shooting skill, at the end of the day Curry is a floor general, he could turn a role player like Iggy into a FMVP, what did people think he could get out of a guy like KD? That they were on the same team, that they led several teams before that, that they went h2h should make this an easy debate.



And neither one sniffs Wade or Kobe imo.

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The right answer is Wade brother, Wade has multiple seasons better than Kobes best.

Still Wade. He has several legitimate cases, including the 2006 finals, the most dominant performance since the merger of the NBA and ABA; the 2010 playoffs, when he was putting up 33 points, 6.8 assists, 5.6 rebounds, 1.6 steals, 1.6 blocks and 40% from three on 7.4 a game; or his monstrous 2008-09 season.

What’s the score? Can’t see the votes.

Absolutely hilarious that Kawhi is already voted for. Completely ruins this. Dude hasn't even gotten an MVP.
Look how good the raptors still are without him.

He's great but he's been on stacked teams his entire career. Since he was a rookie.

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Originally Posted by blams

Absolutely hilarious that Kawhi is already voted for. Completely ruins this. Dude hasn't even gotten an MVP.
Look how good the raptors still are without him.

He's great but he's been on stacked teams his entire career. Since he was a rookie.

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It’s definitely laughable

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Originally Posted by KnicksorBust

After narrowly missing his shot at #12, does Kevin Durant snag #13?

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he def should but people are stupid tbh... they worry about his decision to leave but ignore the teams around jordan/magic/kobes and so on down the list.... hell if anything duncan should be the goat then... duncan won how many rings with parker and gino? imagine if he had pippen or kobe or so on down the list... jesus

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Originally Posted by mrblisterdundee

Still Wade. He has several legitimate cases, including the 2006 finals, the most dominant performance since the merger of the NBA and ABA; the 2010 playoffs, when he was putting up 33 points, 6.8 assists, 5.6 rebounds, 1.6 steals, 1.6 blocks and 40% from three on 7.4 a game; or his monstrous 2008-09 season.

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does wade have multiple or any seasons better than durants best?

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Originally Posted by More-Than-Most

he def should but people are stupid tbh... they worry about his decision to leave but ignore the teams around jordan/magic/kobes and so on down the list.... hell if anything duncan should be the goat then... duncan won how many rings with parker and gino? imagine if he had pippen or kobe or so on down the list... jesus

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I like how people get mad at KD going to the Warriors because it made them a “cheat code” but don’t give him the props at being one of the top 12 talents ever in a “one game takes all” list. Not like GS got Horford or Oladipo. With the exception of Lebron (who went #2), Durant was the only guy that would have pissed people off to that level.


He was a snake and **** him for that but in one game where his coach/teammates are random, I can’t think of anyone over him that still hasn’t been taken (and a few who have).

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Originally Posted by Saddletramp

I like how people get mad at KD going to the Warriors because it made them a “cheat code” but don’t give him the props at being one of the top 12 talents ever in a “one game takes all” list. Not like GS got Horford or Oladipo. With the exception of Lebron (who went #2), Durant was the only guy that would have pissed people off to that level.


He was a snake and **** him for that but in one game where his coach/teammates are random, I can’t think of anyone over him that still hasn’t been taken (and a few who have).

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durant is a ***** no doubt but i dont just ignore the talent and skill because he is a ***** like others... its amazing how people are about to vote wade over KD when KD is far better peak wise/skill wise/currently and will continue to be and will end up a top 10 player ever... do i agree with the move KD made? Nope... do i understand it? Your ****ing right I do... we are in a league where rings-----------> everything else with no questions asked... duncan had the goat coach... kobe had shaq.... jordan had everything and we are butthurt because durant couldnt win with a westy who by the way pg13 wanted out from and so very many more

the way we measure guys is hilariously awful and the butthurt we hold for certain guys is just as bad... durant peak is insanity and we are taking about wade over him? gtfo.

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Originally Posted by blams

Absolutely hilarious that Kawhi is already voted for. Completely ruins this. Dude hasn't even gotten an MVP.
Look how good the raptors still are without him.

He's great but he's been on stacked teams his entire career. Since he was a rookie.

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He’s won multiple MVPs when it mattered


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Originally Posted by More-Than-Most

he def should but people are stupid tbh... they worry about his decision to leave but ignore the teams around jordan/magic/kobes and so on down the list.... hell if anything duncan should be the goat then... duncan won how many rings with parker and gino? imagine if he had pippen or kobe or so on down the list... jesus

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I mean Duncan is a top 7 player or so for a reason lol

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Originally Posted by More-Than-Most

he def should but people are stupid tbh... they worry about his decision to leave but ignore the teams around jordan/magic/kobes and so on down the list.... hell if anything duncan should be the goat then... duncan won how many rings with parker and gino? imagine if he had pippen or kobe or so on down the list... jesus

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Please never compare those other players teams to the te KD joined. I know you love to love KD because it helps your narrative that Curry is a horrible player but this is ridiculous. Take Jordan, Kobe, Magic away from any team they were ever on and they win a total of zero rings and never do they win 60+ games much less 73. Unfortunately we will never know what a prime KD could do because during his prime he was either bowing out and blowing a 3-1 lead like a ***** or he was getting the same attention as TJ Warren.....***** please, this isn't a comparison man. KD should not be in the discussion yet.

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Originally Posted by Saddletramp

I like how people get mad at KD going to the Warriors because it made them a “cheat code” but don’t give him the props at being one of the top 12 talents ever in a “one game takes all” list. Not like GS got Horford or Oladipo. With the exception of Lebron (who went #2), Durant was the only guy that would have pissed people off to that level.


He was a snake and **** him for that but in one game where his coach/teammates are random, I can’t think of anyone over him that still hasn’t been taken (and a few who have).

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I don’t see how someone can think this when he’s never won a championship when the odds weren’t completely stacked in his favor and he choked away a 3-1 series lead.

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Originally Posted by More-Than-Most

does wade have multiple or any seasons better than durants best?

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What Wade did in 2006 as a whole ***** on anything KD ever did, prove me otherwise.

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Originally Posted by ewing

He’s won multiple MVPs when it mattered


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Both are pretty average though and the 1st should’ve went to Duncan.

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Originally Posted by KnicksorBust

I'm convinced Walton would be better than Russell in the modern game.

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Why do you adjust this comparison for the modern game?

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Originally Posted by Iggie

I don’t see how someone can think this when he’s never won a championship when the odds weren’t completely stacked in his favor and he choked away a 3-1 series lead.

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That Mavs in ‘06 weren’t some colossal juggernaut. I’d imagine you’d have Dirk higher because of him taking down your boy + the #2 guy on this list before you’d pick someone who bested the Mavs in ‘06.

BTW, are you still denying that you’re Wad3?

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Originally Posted by Saddletramp

That Mavs in ‘06 weren’t some colossal juggernaut. I’d imagine you’d have Dirk higher because of him taking down your boy + the #2 guy on this list before you’d pick someone who bested the Mavs in ‘06.

BTW, are you still denying that you’re Wad3?

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What point are you trying to make? KD has never won a championship when the odds weren’t stacked completely in his favor. No I wouldn’t because Wades performance was more impressive and Wade outplayed Dirk in 2011, he just couldn’t carry LeBrons dead body to close it out.

You’re obsessed with “Wad3” that is not who I am and this has actually already been discussed with the mods after giannis was saying this, more than most can vouch for that too. Idk what he did to you but I hope you all are able to kiss and make up one day.

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Originally Posted by blams

Absolutely hilarious that Kawhi is already voted for. Completely ruins this. Dude hasn't even gotten an MVP.
Look how good the raptors still are without him.

He's great but he's been on stacked teams his entire career. Since he was a rookie.

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Agreed. He walked into a perfect situation, can rest at will as "the man", his roster support is Larry/Magic level in that he continually has championship level support, and the dude has never been a guy I would pick as THE best player.

Not even sure how he was voted so high, but that is why voting is interesting..

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Originally Posted by Hawkeye15

Agreed. He walked into a perfect situation, can rest at will as "the man", his roster support is Larry/Magic level in that he continually has championship level support, and the dude has never been a guy I would pick as THE best player.

Not even sure how he was voted so high, but that is why voting is interesting..

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There's some confusion on what peak means, its mostly who you would take to win a game today. Peak Kawhi has the skill set to play with everyone, has few holes in his game and has consistently raised his level of play every post season.

His playoff production is elite, who goes ahead?

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Originally Posted by blams

Absolutely hilarious that Kawhi is already voted for. Completely ruins this. Dude hasn't even gotten an MVP.
Look how good the raptors still are without him.

He's great but he's been on stacked teams his entire career. Since he was a rookie.

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You're taking this player at his best, in a playoff level atmosphere. Regular season isn't as important so mvps are irrelevant. Its why wade has a case too, he's not exactly durable either.

Then you throw in the OP saying we're building a team and quite frankly, Kawhi can be a legendary go to guy or the greatest 3 and D guy of all time, put that guy on the warriors instead of kd and you would have seen true dominance and curry would've looked even better. Damn shame they didn't trade kd for kawhi that final year.

Raptors did have some guys continue to improve but the playoffs are where they will be measured most. In the loffs they needed Kawhi greatly, I'd argue they beat a superior team in philly and Milwaukee but its debatable

I mean, Dirk Nowitzki had Josh Howard as his sidekick in 2006 and Jason Terry in 2011... I'm not going to say Dirk didn't have ANY help, but compared to Durant and Wade, Dirk had hot garbage and was able to win a ship. He really should have 2x ships, taking the ship the refs gave Wade in 2006.

Let's not forget 2006 is arguably one of the most infamous NBA Finals, right there with the LA/Kings Finals. It later came out post 2006 that refs would bet on games. The ref who SERVED TIME for his misconduct even EXPLICITLY stated that the 2006 Finals were rigged. Wade's 2006 performance has a huge asterisk next to it. It's not his fault ref's cheated and gave them the trophy, but it doesn't mean he is worthy of the accolade either.

If we are talking raw numbers, then this is a very primitive vote. If we are taking CONTEXT into account as well as impact and raw figures, then Dirk should probably be the guy.

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Originally Posted by Redrum187

I mean, Dirk Nowitzki had Josh Howard as his sidekick in 2006 and Jason Terry in 2011... I'm not going to say Dirk didn't have ANY help, but compared to Durant and Wade, Dirk had hot garbage and was able to win a ship. He really should have 2x ships, taking the ship the refs gave Wade in 2006.

Let's not forget 2006 is arguably one of the most infamous NBA Finals, right there with the LA/Kings Finals. It later came out post 2006 that refs would bet on games. The ref who SERVED TIME for his misconduct even EXPLICITLY stated that the 2006 Finals were rigged. Wade's 2006 performance has a huge asterisk next to it. It's not his fault ref's cheated and gave them the trophy, but it doesn't mean he is worthy of the accolade either.

If we are talking raw numbers, then this is a very primitive vote. If we are taking CONTEXT into account as well as impact and raw figures, then Dirk should probably be the guy.

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Dirk choked multiple times.

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Originally Posted by Chronz

There's some confusion on what peak means, its mostly who you would take to win a game today. Peak Kawhi has the skill set to play with everyone, has few holes in his game and has consistently raised his level of play every post season.

His playoff production is elite, who goes ahead?

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Kawhi has never taken his game to the level Wade did in the 2006 nba finals though so that’s where my confusion comes from. We’re picking guys like Kawhi when there’s guys who have taken their game to a further level in the biggest moments.

@Wade/iggy

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/...-of-2006-title

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“Basically, Dallas was up in the series,” Donaghy said on the Forgotten Maverick Podcast. “With that being said, the way it was back then, was that the NBA would come in in order to extend a series, to go over plays that they felt should have went in Miami’s favor that didn’t and that went in Dallas’s favor that shouldn’t have and they started to program and training the referees to look for certain things.”

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"I think basically Dallas basically got screwed out of a championship in that situation because the NBA started to manipulate the series to make sure it was extended and Dallas could never recover from it,” Donaghy said.

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The dominant majority of non Heat fans and Mavericks fans tend to think the Lakers/Kings and Mavericks/Heat finals are the 2 most rigged Finals in history. I actually think peak Wade was superior to Kobe's peak. I don't hate Wade, though, 2006 has an asterisk by most people's standards, and rightfully so.

In conclusion, Wade needed LeBron and Chris Bosh to win a ship. In 2006 he needed the refs and an end-of-prime Shaq.

All Dirk needed was Jason Terry in 2011... add to that, he got revenge for the rigged 2006 Finals on Wade. Dirk gets the nod here.

Wade and Durant were on Finals teams that were expected to win over their opponents. Both lost to inferior teams. Dirk is the only one to go against the 2nd greatest player in NBA history as well as a top 25 NBA player in Wade and a top 15 player in the NBA at the time in Chris Bosh and come out victorious. Dirk's peak over such dominant players/teams has to give him the edge.

Or if we are going to pretend Wade is the 13th best peak, I can FACTUALLY state that Dirk, with Jason Terry as his sidekick, beat out 2x top 13 peak NBA players (LeBron James and D. Wade) along with a top 15 player in the NBA (Chris Bosh) in 2011.

Not only should this automatically exclude Wade from consideration, this should prop up Dirk's claim to #13.

Giannis/Redrum

So you didn’t read any of that? Did the refs make Dirk miss his free throws in the last seconds of game 3? Did they lock him and Terry up on the 4th quarter of games? Didn’t Dirk shoot the most free throws in playoff history that season? Must’ve rigged it for the Mavs to get there. The facts are in my post above, Mavs had every chance to win that series but they choked many different times.

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Originally Posted by Redrum187

Or if we are going to pretend Wade is the 13th best peak, I can FACTUALLY state that Dirk, with Jason Terry as his sidekick, beat out 2x top 13 peak NBA players (LeBron James and D. Wade) along with a top 15 player in the NBA (Chris Bosh) in 2011.

Not only should this automatically exclude Wade from consideration, this should prop up Dirk's claim to #13.

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That wasn’t Wade or LeBrons “peak” but good try. 2011 finals was rigged anyways and Wade outplayed Dirk

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Originally Posted by Iggie

Both are pretty average though and the 1st should’ve went to Duncan.

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He’s been a fantastic playoff performer, deserved both finals MVPs, and won the first one at 22! Dude is good


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Originally Posted by ewing

He’s been a fantastic playoff performer, deserved both finals MVPs, and won the first one at 22! Dude is good


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Absolutely an awesome playoff performer. I disagree on the 1st but definitely agree with the 2nd, neither were anything spectacular though.