PDA

View Full Version : It's too early to start trade season



IndyRealist
10-20-2019, 06:41 AM
https://sports.yahoo.com/domantas-sabonis-trade-rumors-know-210049329.html

The Indiana Pacers have started to explore the trade market for Domantas Sabonis. There are logical reasons for this: Sabonis is good (he was second in Sixth Man of the Year voting last season), yet he and the Pacers are nowhere near agreement on a contract extension, and the Pacers already paid big money for Myles Turner to be their center, how much do they want to pay Sabonis, too?

That’s sound logic if you’re in the Pacers’ front office.

If you’re Sabonis, it can feel like a slap in the face to a guy who put in a lot of sweat and passion for the franchise.


Domas on potentially being dealt:

"There’s not really much to talk about. I know exactly how the Pacers feel about me now, they know how I feel about that, and there’s not much more to say. Let my agents do the rest of it and we’ll see what happens.”

He has spoken to his dad.


There is likely to be a lot of interest in Sabonis on the market. However, because he’s a center (a position teams are careful not to overspend on in today’s market) and in the last year of his rookie deal — meaning he becomes a restricted free agent next summer and gets more expensive — teams are not going to overpay for him. Right now the Pacers are asking for too much and interested teams are lowballing their offers. The sides will meet in the middle.

IndyRealist
10-20-2019, 07:05 AM
Sabonis is naturally a center in today's NBA, but we've already paid Myles Turner to be the starting center. He's very good offensively around the basket, probably about as good as you can be as a post player these days, and an excellent rebounder and pivot passer. He had a remarkable offensive year at 63% TS (vs. 57.3% league avg for PF/C) and PPS of 1.49 (1.29 avg). Per 36 he's a 20/13 player. For people who care about those things his PER is 21.9, WS/48 1.97, BPM 3.7 (1.5/2.2 O/D), RPM 1.55 (15th among PF, 70th overall, not sure why he's listed at PF) behind Clint Capela and ahead of LaMarcus Aldridge.

However, he is not a rim protector. He's a strong, capable post defender, but isn't especially quick laterally and doesn't block shots. In Indiana, playing him next to Myles Turner is likely going to cause significant difficulties. Offensively they're ok, as Myles prefers to shoot from outside so Sabonis can dominate the paint, but defensively they overlap a lot and Myles is just the better choice on that end. This more than anything is probably why the Pacers are hesitant to pay him.

So, what's he worth? Who needs an offensive minded center? How much would you pay him?

hugepatsfan
10-20-2019, 08:57 AM
How often does he play with Oladipo and what are his numbers there? My concern on the offensive end is whether he would be able to assimilate his game to playing with other top performers. Some guys are better as the #1 option for a second unit than as a secondary scoring threat with the starters.

I’d really love him on Boston regardless. The obvious match would be someone like Jaylen Brown or Marcus Smart. I’d prefer to “overpay” in other assets though, some combination of:

Memphis 1st rounder
Romeo Langford
Robert Williams
Carson Edwards
Grant Williams
Our own 1sts

I think that’d be a win for IND on value if they got 3-5 pieces from that group but it lacks win now pieces like I imagine they’d want.

IndyRealist
10-20-2019, 10:01 AM
How often does he play with Oladipo and what are his numbers there? My concern on the offensive end is whether he would be able to assimilate his game to playing with other top performers. Some guys are better as the #1 option for a second unit than as a secondary scoring threat with the starters.

I’d really love him on Boston regardless. The obvious match would be someone like Jaylen Brown or Marcus Smart. I’d prefer to “overpay” in other assets though, some combination of:

Memphis 1st rounder
Romeo Langford
Robert Williams
Carson Edwards
Grant Williams
Our own 1sts

I think that’d be a win for IND on value if they got 3-5 pieces from that group but it lacks win now pieces like I imagine they’d want.

Oladipo/Sabonis was our 3rd best 2 man lineup over 200 mins played (454). +8.7 net rating.

He pretty much plays well next to everyone BUT Turner.

Tg11
10-20-2019, 11:13 AM
Sabonis I could see him fitting in on teams like my Celtics, Pelicans, Knicks, Heat or like his dad I could see him in Portland with Lillard, McCollum and those boys

hugepatsfan
10-20-2019, 11:57 AM
Oladipo/Sabonis was our 3rd best 2 man lineup over 200 mins played (454). +8.7 net rating.

He pretty much plays well next to everyone BUT Turner.

Where do you see him on the hierarchy of a great team. I imagine he was the #2 offensive player during that time on the court with Oladipo. The second best offensive player of NBA champions:

2019 TOR - Siakem
2018 GS - Curry
2017 GS - Curry
2016 CLE - Kyrie
2015 GS - Klay
2014 SA - Ginobli/Parker
2013 MIA - Wade
2012 MIA - Wade
2011 DAL - Terry
2010 LAL - Pau
2009 LAL - Pau
2008 BOS - one of Pierce/Ray/KG

So on and so forth. Terry and Siakem aren't but the rest of those guys are HOFers. So most likely Sabonis will have to be a lower option on a title team. Is his game something that would adjust well to that or is he someone who might not be able to do what he does best as he moves down the totem pole?

warfelg
10-20-2019, 12:02 PM
Oladipo/Sabonis was our 3rd best 2 man lineup over 200 mins played (454). +8.7 net rating.

He pretty much plays well next to everyone BUT Turner.

Ugh. Why move him then? Why not move Turner for better wing help? I’m not sure who you could get for him but Turner seems like a great fit for Zion.

IndyRealist
10-20-2019, 12:19 PM
Ugh. Why move him then? Why not move Turner for better wing help? I’m not sure who you could get for him but Turner seems like a great fit for Zion.

I imagine the thinking is that Turner makes their 3rd rated defense function, and at 4yr $72M he's a relative value. Sabonis is in a contract year and they are far apart on a number, so he's probably asking for significantly more than Turner.

IndyRealist
10-20-2019, 12:27 PM
Where do you see him on the hierarchy of a great team. I imagine he was the #2 offensive player during that time on the court with Oladipo. The second best offensive player of NBA champions:

2019 TOR - Siakem
2018 GS - Curry
2017 GS - Curry
2016 CLE - Kyrie
2015 GS - Klay
2014 SA - Ginobli/Parker
2013 MIA - Wade
2012 MIA - Wade
2011 DAL - Terry
2010 LAL - Pau
2009 LAL - Pau
2008 BOS - one of Pierce/Ray/KG

So on and so forth. Terry and Siakem aren't but the rest of those guys are HOFers. So most likely Sabonis will have to be a lower option on a title team. Is his game something that would adjust well to that or is he someone who might not be able to do what he does best as he moves down the totem pole?

He could be a 2nd option if a team committed to running post plays through him. I don't know that it's fair to compare him to those guys, as he's only been in the league 3 years. Most of those guys as 2nd options have a much larger body of work to look at. 3rd option of a big 3 is more likely given the slant of the league. He functions well as a clean up man and roll man, but really excels in the post up. You want to run plays for him, and definitely not spot him up in the corner

His main issue is that he's not a rim protector, and that's what most teams want if they're running one big.

Tg11
10-20-2019, 01:19 PM
Sabonis hell he would even be a good fit with the Spurs or even the Mavs if you pair him up with Doncic, Porzingis and those guys

Chronz
10-20-2019, 01:31 PM
Is he a better option than Zubac?

ewing
10-20-2019, 01:41 PM
Is he a better option than Zubac?

Yep


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Chronz
10-20-2019, 01:45 PM
Yep


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Im trying to see it. Do they need a scoring option or a rim protector? Is Sabonis an upgrade defensively is all that matters

PS Randle is another big time garbage bucket getter.

smith&wesson
10-20-2019, 06:17 PM
Mavs all over that.

Straight up swap orb Hardaway Jr and Sabonis could makes sense.

Tg11
10-20-2019, 07:07 PM
Sabonis, Porzingis and Doncic European connection I would love it in Dallas

IndyRealist
10-20-2019, 07:31 PM
Mavs all over that.

Straight up swap orb Hardaway Jr and Sabonis could makes sense.

Ignoring for a sec the quality of the players, Sabonis is on a rookie contract and Hardaway makes $20M. There's no reasonable way that trade happens.

The Pacers are asking a lot for Sabonis, which is why a deal hasn't happened yet. If the money in any deal starts approaching $20M+, they can just let Sabonis hit RFA and match, then trade him after they get a full year+ of use out of him.

TrueFan420
10-20-2019, 08:09 PM
Sabonis, Porzingis and Doncic European connection I would love it in Dallas

Sabonis and Porzingis are too slow footed to play next to each other.

smith&wesson
10-21-2019, 01:08 AM
Ignoring for a sec the quality of the players, Sabonis is on a rookie contract and Hardaway makes $20M. There's no reasonable way that trade happens.

The Pacers are asking a lot for Sabonis, which is why a deal hasn't happened yet. If the money in any deal starts approaching $20M+, they can just let Sabonis hit RFA and match, then trade him after they get a full year+ of use out of him.

Well what would be considered “a lot” if you have to match his 3.5 mill salary? McConnell and Mcdermott make salaries closer. I’m not sure if the pacers want to part with them though. Are the pacers able to absorb some salary in any trade scenario ? I guess they’re looking for picks then. Boston comes to mind.

IndyRealist
10-21-2019, 08:22 AM
Well what would be considered “a lot” if you have to match his 3.5 mill salary? McConnell and Mcdermott make salaries closer. I’m not sure if the pacers want to part with them though. Are the pacers able to absorb some salary in any trade scenario ? I guess they’re looking for picks then. Boston comes to mind.

I think they would move someone like McDermott but there isn't a lot of flexibility until Oladipo gets back. Due to matching requirements they can't take much more salary. Sabonis + McDermott is 10.8, so they can take back 13.5 for example. Given what we know about past trade demands around PG, I think it's very likely they want a high end guy on a rookie deal + picks.

hugepatsfan
10-21-2019, 11:26 AM
I think they would move someone like McDermott but there isn't a lot of flexibility until Oladipo gets back. Due to matching requirements they can't take much more salary. Sabonis + McDermott is 10.8, so they can take back 13.5 for example. Given what we know about past trade demands around PG, I think it's very likely they want a high end guy on a rookie deal + picks.

Paul George was an all NBA player. I don’t think Sabonis justifies a high end guy on a rookie deal with picks. A high end player on a rookie deal is basically what Sabonis is except he’s off that rookie deal next year. So what would the other team’s motivation be?

I feel like you guys could end up doing what MIL did with Brogden. You know he’s not in the long term budget but there’s a window to compete so you just hold onto him for the year. Pass up the long term value of the trade return for the short term value of having a very valuable role player.

smith&wesson
10-21-2019, 12:36 PM
I think they would move someone like McDermott but there isn't a lot of flexibility until Oladipo gets back. Due to matching requirements they can't take much more salary. Sabonis + McDermott is 10.8, so they can take back 13.5 for example. Given what we know about past trade demands around PG, I think it's very likely they want a high end guy on a rookie deal + picks.

Hardaway Jr makes 18.1 mill. If the pacers would be willing to trade Sabonis, Mcdermott, & Mconnell that brings them to 14.5 mill. Leaving them having to take back 3.6 mill.

Brogdon, Oladipo, Hardaway Jr, Warren, Turner, Lamb, Leaf, Holidays

That’s a pretty solid 8-9 man rotation. You would need to secure a back up C but other wise I think a perimeter player like Hardaway Jr could round out the roster nicely.

smith&wesson
10-21-2019, 12:41 PM
Paul George was an all NBA player. I don’t think Sabonis justifies a high end guy on a rookie deal with picks. A high end player on a rookie deal is basically what Sabonis is except he’s off that rookie deal next year. So what would the other team’s motivation be?

I feel like you guys could end up doing what MIL did with Brogden. You know he’s not in the long term budget but there’s a window to compete so you just hold onto him for the year. Pass up the long term value of the trade return for the short term value of having a very valuable role player.

I see what you’re saying. But imo they need perimeter players. With Oladipo still out for a while, beyond Lamb, they don’t have much depth on the perimeter. They can utilize Warren at the 3 and Brogdon at he 2 but that leaves them thin at the 1&4 spots. I think using Sabonis as a trade chip is the best way to add a perimeter player to adress that need.

smith&wesson
10-21-2019, 12:51 PM
I’d keep an eye on Boston.

-They need a big man.
-Their negotiations have stalled with Brown. Much like the Pacers have with Sabonis.
- Hayward is likely very much available (although harder to match his salary) making Brown the easier player to trade.
- Brown has one year left, Sabonis has one year left on their respective contracts.
- pacers are not in need for a big, celtics are not in need of a wing.
- each team has a bigger need for the other player.

A Sabonis for Brown swap could make sense for both teams.

IndyRealist
10-21-2019, 02:02 PM
Hardaway Jr makes 18.1 mill. If the pacers would be willing to trade Sabonis, Mcdermott, & Mconnell that brings them to 14.5 mill. Leaving them having to take back 3.6 mill.

Brogdon, Oladipo, Hardaway Jr, Warren, Turner, Lamb, Leaf, Holidays

That’s a pretty solid 8-9 man rotation. You would need to secure a back up C but other wise I think a perimeter player like Hardaway Jr could round out the roster nicely.

McConnell is backing up 1 and 2. Hardaway isn't a player I'd create more gaps in the team for.

IndyRealist
10-21-2019, 02:06 PM
I’d keep an eye on Boston.

-They need a big man.
-Their negotiations have stalled with Brown. Much like the Pacers have with Sabonis.
- Hayward is likely very much available (although harder to match his salary) making Brown the easier player to trade.
- Brown has one year left, Sabonis has one year left on their respective contracts.
- pacers are not in need for a big, celtics are not in need of a wing.
- each team has a bigger need for the other player.

A Sabonis for Brown swap could make sense for both teams.

This is the most likely deal I've seen. I don't like the money implications though, which is why we're shopping Sabonis in the first place.

I'd rather target Romeo Langford and Carsen Edwards if BOS were willing to do that. But the Pacers would orobably want picks too, bc they're greedy.

ewing
10-21-2019, 02:26 PM
This is the most likely deal I've seen. I don't like the money implications though, which is why we're shopping Sabonis in the first place.

I'd rather target Romeo Langford and Carsen Edwards if BOS were willing to do that. But the Pacers would orobably want picks too, bc they're greedy.

Do you think they should pay him or look to move him?

IndyRealist
10-21-2019, 05:02 PM
Do you think they should pay him or look to move him?

Moot point now. 4yr $74.9M extension. Incentives up to $85M

beasted86
10-21-2019, 07:11 PM
Sabonis is a decent player, but he's not worth more than say $14-16M a season to a small market team like Indy, especially since he's a questionable fit and is not a starter.

He should have signed a Jonas V type contract, but this is not a massive overpay.

IndyRealist
10-21-2019, 07:46 PM
Sabonis is a decent player, but he's not worth more than say $14-16M a season to a small market team like Indy, especially since he's a questionable fit and is not a starter.

He should have signed a Jonas V type contract, but this is not a massive overpay.

Jaylen Brown got $115M, Buddy Hield got $86M, $106M with incentives. Out of the 3, Sabonis so far isn't the least productive of them, though he probably has the lowest ceiling. I think it's a fair deal.

ewing
10-21-2019, 07:48 PM
Jaylen Brown got $115M, Buddy Hield got $86M, $106M with incentives. Out of the 3, Sabonis so far isn't the least productive of them, though he probably has the lowest ceiling. I think it's a fair deal.

He is definitely a better player then Brown and right there with Buddy


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

ewing
10-21-2019, 07:49 PM
Sabonis is a decent player, but he's not worth more than say $14-16M a season to a small market team like Indy, especially since he's a questionable fit and is not a starter.

He should have signed a Jonas V type contract, but this is not a massive overpay.

He’s not a starter bc of fit. I don’t know what I would’ve done if I was Indy but he definitely worth the contract


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

beasted86
10-21-2019, 08:24 PM
He is definitely a better player then Brown and right there with Buddy


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I guess you're a Sabonis homer or something.

Hield can basically fit next to anyone. Sabonis needs a very specific offense and defensive package you maximize his benefit. That alone makes a significant gap in their value and skills.

I agree on Brown. I've simply never been impressed.

beasted86
10-21-2019, 08:27 PM
Jaylen Brown got $115M, Buddy Hield got $86M, $106M with incentives. Out of the 3, Sabonis so far isn't the least productive of them, though he probably has the lowest ceiling. I think it's a fair deal.

Yes it's definitely fair. He could still improve and this would be an underpay. I just don't think it's likely. I think he remains a productive above average C with some limitations that keep him from ever being an all-star caliber player. Definitely fair deal overall.

Heediot
10-24-2019, 07:58 AM
Nice signing by the pacers. I'd take Sabonis and Hields deals over Jaylens. Not sure he's the greatest fit next to turner though, but he is a trad-able asset at worse.