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Chronz
07-25-2019, 07:04 PM
The only truly All-Time level teams he faced he lost to, I guess the 50 win Pistons and the Kareem less Lakers come closest but they went out in a whimper. IDK if most would rank them above the 90's Knicks tbh.



So here are the top Squads;

91Pistons (50 Wins/3.08 SRS) HOF Backcourt and prime Rodman.
91 Lakers (58 WIns/6.73 SRS) Magic Johnson and injured Scott+Worthy
92 Blazers (57 WIns/6.94 SRS) Clyde Drexler and Terry Porter headline this squad....
93 Suns (62 Wins/6.27 SRS) Older Charles and Creepy KJ and a defenseless Suns squad
93 Knicks (60 Wins/5.87 SRS) These Knicks hit their peak level the following year when MJ retired. They had taken the Bulls to 7 the year prior, so either one works for me

96 Magic (60 Wins/5.40 SRS) Penny+Shaq with an injured Horace Grant
96 Sonics (64 Wins/7.40 SRS) Hobbled GP and peak Kemp
97 Jazz (64 Wins/7.97 SRS) Old man versions of Stockton and Malone



Rank em and ask yourself, do these teams hang tough with some of the contenders of the 2010's

IKnowHoops
07-26-2019, 12:20 AM
The only truly All-Time level teams he faced he lost to, I guess the 50 win Pistons and the Kareem less Lakers come closest but they went out in a whimper. IDK if most would rank them above the 90's Knicks tbh.



So here are the top Squads;

91Pistons (50 Wins/3.08 SRS) HOF Backcourt and prime Rodman.
91 Lakers (58 WIns/6.73 SRS) Magic Johnson and injured Scott+Worthy
92 Blazers (57 WIns/6.94 SRS) Clyde Drexler and Terry Porter headline this squad....
93 Suns (62 Wins/6.27 SRS) Older Charles and Creepy KJ and a defenseless Suns squad
93 Knicks (60 Wins/5.87 SRS) These Knicks hit their peak level the following year when MJ retired. They had taken the Bulls to 7 the year prior, so either one works for me

96 Magic (60 Wins/5.40 SRS) Penny+Shaq with an injured Horace Grant
96 Sonics (64 Wins/7.40 SRS) Hobbled GP and peak Kemp
97 Jazz (64 Wins/7.97 SRS) Old man versions of Stockton and Malone



Rank em and ask yourself, do these teams hang tough with some of the contenders of the 2010's

97 Jazz gave them there toughest test IMO, but probably because the Bulls were also aging.

I feel like the 92 Blazers were the best team they faced.

I watched all those series and remember them pretty well.

The suns were pretty stacked though. Even Dumas was a beast at the time when he got his opportunities.

Chronz
07-26-2019, 03:06 AM
we;re all in agreement, 90's comp sucked

More-Than-Most
07-26-2019, 03:12 AM
Jordan was an insane player and arguably the GOAT.... But he legit went up against such easy teams and had a warriors level stacked team and if you ever try to argue against the goat status its 6 rings... 6-0... uber clutch.

nastynice
07-26-2019, 03:33 AM
Jordan ran em man, y'all trippin. Blazers were nasty, suns and Sonics were, jazz were probably the best, I dunno. Knicks were a squad in the east, Pacers and magic had some good years. But the west was a savage, the west was stacked, every finals (except maybe Lakers, I dunno) was ****in certified and legit. If you came out the west you beat Barkley's suns, Robinson spurs, Hakeem clyde rockets, Kemp payton sonic, malone jazz, even that one year majerle Kevin Johnson, Barkley, they were stacked

Even blazers were hella nasty even tho they had mad turnover.

Bulls got 6 man, cant take nothing away from that. Goat team legacy. I doubt the warriors can run off 3 more.

****in bulls!

Chronz
07-26-2019, 03:54 AM
Jordan ran em man, y'all trippin. Blazers were nasty, suns and Sonics were, jazz were probably the best, I dunno. Knicks were a squad in the east, Pacers and magic had some good years. But the west was a savage, the west was stacked, every finals (except maybe Lakers, I dunno) was ****in certified and legit. If you came out the west you beat Barkley's suns, Robinson spurs, Hakeem clyde rockets, Kemp payton sonic, malone jazz, even that one year majerle Kevin Johnson, Barkley, they were stacked

Even blazers were hella nasty even tho they had mad turnover.

Bulls got 6 man, cant take nothing away from that. Goat team legacy. I doubt the warriors can run off 3 more.

****in bulls!

count the hof'ers on those squads. u still sure they were legit

Ahriman
07-26-2019, 04:37 AM
92 Blazers had Kersey as well, Porter was still elite, especially during this playoffs run
93 Suns had Majerle and Dumas on top of Barkley and KJ. Mind you that Barkley was 29 years old, so not "old Barkley" lmao
I don't recall 96 Sonics Payton being hobbled, and people gave him credit on his defense against MJ. Plus they had Schrempf and Hawk too

92 Cavs were legit too, Price Nance Daugherty were no slouchs

But the 92 and 93 Knicks were the best team they faced imo

What is the point of this thread? If it's saying "yeah MJ never had to face a team as good as GS", it's obvious, but painting those 90's team as garbo is plain ridiculous

Iron24th
07-26-2019, 05:18 AM
Poor jazz who got raped 2 times in a row...

I thought the 96's Sonics had a chance but well the 96's Bulls were something else.

valade16
07-26-2019, 09:40 AM
I think the fact all the teams lost certainly damages their historical perspective. If say the Jazz won both those, they'd be looked at as one of the better teams.

I think the Jazz, Sonics, Blazers and Suns were all very good. Obviously the Pistons were extremely good as well. He faced plenty of tough competition. I think I did the breakdown in the past, but although MJ hasn't won against teams as good as Bron has in the Finals, he never lost to a team as bad as LeBron has in the Finals.

WaDe03
07-26-2019, 09:48 AM
Iím not impressed at all to say the least.

smith&wesson
07-26-2019, 11:16 AM
The only truly All-Time level teams he faced he lost to, I guess the 50 win Pistons and the Kareem less Lakers come closest but they went out in a whimper. IDK if most would rank them above the 90's Knicks tbh.


So here are the top Squads;

91Pistons (50 Wins/3.08 SRS) HOF Backcourt and prime Rodman.
91 Lakers (58 WIns/6.73 SRS) Magic Johnson and injured Scott+Worthy
92 Blazers (57 WIns/6.94 SRS) Clyde Drexler and Terry Porter headline this squad....
93 Suns (62 Wins/6.27 SRS) Older Charles and Creepy KJ and a defenseless Suns squad
93 Knicks (60 Wins/5.87 SRS) These Knicks hit their peak level the following year when MJ retired. They had taken the Bulls to 7 the year prior, so either one works for me

96 Magic (60 Wins/5.40 SRS) Penny+Shaq with an injured Horace Grant
96 Sonics (64 Wins/7.40 SRS) Hobbled GP and peak Kemp
97 Jazz (64 Wins/7.97 SRS) Old man versions of Stockton and Malone



Rank em and ask yourself, do these teams hang tough with some of the contenders of the 2010's

Iím going with the 96 magic squad as the best because they beat the Jordan lead Bulls in the 1995 NBA Eastern Conference Semifinals. I think people forget the Bulls lost that series.

Prime penny & Shaq ❤️ Blue chips era

smith&wesson
07-26-2019, 11:20 AM
Iíve been meaning to ask you this Chronz, do you want my sig? I canít picture anyone who could be happier about Kawhi joining your Clippers.

Chronz
07-26-2019, 04:20 PM
92 Blazers had Kersey as well, Porter was still elite, especially during this playoffs run
93 Suns had Majerle and Dumas on top of Barkley and KJ. Mind you that Barkley was 29 years old, so not "old Barkley" lmao
I don't recall 96 Sonics Payton being hobbled, and people gave him credit on his defense against MJ. Plus they had Schrempf and Hawk too

92 Cavs were legit too, Price Nance Daugherty were no slouchs

But the 92 and 93 Knicks were the best team they faced imo

What is the point of this thread? If it's saying "yeah MJ never had to face a team as good as GS", it's obvious, but painting those 90's team as garbo is plain ridiculous

I like the cut of your jib. yes the point of my thread was to point out the garbo squads he faced in comparison to the super teams of today. could you honestly envision any of those teams hanging with even mild contenders of recent memory, not even talking about adjusting to an era but comparing their respective eras. I honestly believe some of these squads dont even make the Finals (ECF or otherwise) if they had to take on some of the teams of recent memory.

Seriously which of those teams stands out as a true barometer to judge MJ by...... GP was hobbled bro, the reason he was given credit was because it took G.Karl like 2 games to finally put his best defender on MJ, the reason he was hesitant to begin with was precisely because GP was hurt and he didn't want to put too much on him. It was stupid AF and another example of GK's conservative style biting him in the ***.

IDK why but it felt like Chuck was older than that, I know he won the MVP and was still a bad mfker but dude, Philly Chuck was an athletic marvel, MJ didn't face that beast when he was fully crewed up. Thats the basic theme here, MJ usually had the 2nd or 3rd best player in a series on his side.

Chronz
07-26-2019, 04:25 PM
Iíve been meaning to ask you this Chronz, do you want my sig? I canít picture anyone who could be happier about Kawhi joining your Clippers.
You have no idea what this city feels like now, at least if you're the type to talk to a **** ton of strangers. I met this dude the other day that looks exactly like Kyrie to the point where he stopped me before I could even ask.Twas wearing my Bird jersey and we talked ball for a good 20 minutes, got him a beer and went on my way but man, this city cant wait for the hallway series. I just hope Bron doesn't age before our eyes. Ill think of a good sig, been thinking about the 213 (DTLA original area code) being the theme. Basketball has returned to the mecca (yes, look up your history Yankees)

Heediot
07-26-2019, 04:33 PM
Yeah super teams were more rare back then. Teams were more balanced due to no max contracts and teams not being able to manipulate the system and load up on high end talent.

You could still try to create one via trade like the geezer rockets.

These old timers say they wouldn't team up but I don't fall for that bluff. The system made it harder to team up without sacrificing one's own pocket. Nowadays the system makes it far easier to team up due to the restrictions on how much a true superstar can make.

smith&wesson
07-26-2019, 07:36 PM
You have no idea what this city feels like now, at least if you're the type to talk to a **** ton of strangers. I met this dude the other day that looks exactly like Kyrie to the point where he stopped me before I could even ask.Twas wearing my Bird jersey and we talked ball for a good 20 minutes, got him a beer and went on my way but man, this city cant wait for the hallway series. I just hope Bron doesn't age before our eyes. Ill think of a good sig, been thinking about the 213 (DTLA original area code) being the theme. Basketball has returned to the mecca (yes, look up your history Yankees)

I was gonna pass that Klaw sign like a torch lol

I know what youíre saying, he lit Toronto up in way no one ever expected. Two million showed up for the paraid, there was a buzz in the city like I never felt in my life time.

I think Lebron has some gas left. He has Davis and a decent group around him, theyíll be able to compete. Itíll be a decent rivalry at least for a couple years

D-Leethal
07-27-2019, 09:59 AM
You have no idea what this city feels like now, at least if you're the type to talk to a **** ton of strangers. I met this dude the other day that looks exactly like Kyrie to the point where he stopped me before I could even ask.Twas wearing my Bird jersey and we talked ball for a good 20 minutes, got him a beer and went on my way but man, this city cant wait for the hallway series. I just hope Bron doesn't age before our eyes. Ill think of a good sig, been thinking about the 213 (DTLA original area code) being the theme. Basketball has returned to the mecca (yes, look up your history Yankees)

Your a grown man who walks around town wearing a Larry Bird jersey?

nastynice
07-27-2019, 12:13 PM
I be wearing jerseys..:shrug:

Pierzynski4Prez
07-27-2019, 02:08 PM
98 pacers were maybe the toughest challenge for them during the 2nd 3peat. Only ones to take them 7 during those seasons.


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IKnowHoops
07-27-2019, 03:37 PM
Jordan ran em man, y'all trippin. Blazers were nasty, suns and Sonics were, jazz were probably the best, I dunno. Knicks were a squad in the east, Pacers and magic had some good years. But the west was a savage, the west was stacked, every finals (except maybe Lakers, I dunno) was ****in certified and legit. If you came out the west you beat Barkley's suns, Robinson spurs, Hakeem clyde rockets, Kemp payton sonic, malone jazz, even that one year majerle Kevin Johnson, Barkley, they were stacked

Even blazers were hella nasty even tho they had mad turnover.

Bulls got 6 man, cant take nothing away from that. Goat team legacy. I doubt the warriors can run off 3 more.

****in bulls!

Spurs were trash...Cleveland circa 2005...Drob and Bron were in the same sitch

ewing
07-27-2019, 05:42 PM
98 pacers were maybe the toughest challenge for them during the 2nd 3peat. Only ones to take them 7 during those seasons.


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That Pacer team was fantastic. I really thought they were going win that series and still think the Bulls got some help from the refs


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Chronz
07-27-2019, 08:34 PM
Your a grown man who walks around town wearing a Larry Bird jersey?
On a bike no less

IKnowHoops
07-27-2019, 09:22 PM
That Pacer team was fantastic. I really thought they were going win that series and still think the Bulls got some help from the refs


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The Bulls always got help from the refs

Jordan was always amazing though...accept when the Pistons got in that tail he had some stinkers

nastynice
07-28-2019, 12:18 PM
The Bulls always got help from the refs

Jordan was always amazing though...accept when the Pistons got in that tail he had some stinkers

Lol, I definitely remember Jordan rules.

They'd wait to see if the layup drops or not, if not the fouls coming, lol

That bulls team got more ref help than any team in any sport I can remember.

Hawkeye15
07-28-2019, 12:32 PM
The only truly All-Time level teams he faced he lost to, I guess the 50 win Pistons and the Kareem less Lakers come closest but they went out in a whimper. IDK if most would rank them above the 90's Knicks tbh.



So here are the top Squads;

91Pistons (50 Wins/3.08 SRS) HOF Backcourt and prime Rodman.
91 Lakers (58 WIns/6.73 SRS) Magic Johnson and injured Scott+Worthy
92 Blazers (57 WIns/6.94 SRS) Clyde Drexler and Terry Porter headline this squad....
93 Suns (62 Wins/6.27 SRS) Older Charles and Creepy KJ and a defenseless Suns squad
93 Knicks (60 Wins/5.87 SRS) These Knicks hit their peak level the following year when MJ retired. They had taken the Bulls to 7 the year prior, so either one works for me

96 Magic (60 Wins/5.40 SRS) Penny+Shaq with an injured Horace Grant
96 Sonics (64 Wins/7.40 SRS) Hobbled GP and peak Kemp
97 Jazz (64 Wins/7.97 SRS) Old man versions of Stockton and Malone



Rank em and ask yourself, do these teams hang tough with some of the contenders of the 2010's

there was/were a few long articles on this. LeBron's finals opponents take a **** on what MJ faced, we all know that (or we are too full of hate to believe it).

I personally feel the 92' Blazers were the best team he faced. Even some of the supposed better teams were littered with playoff chokers (Malone, Payton, etc). He caught a Lakers squad nearly finished, and if we are rolling in the east teams, even the Pistons were on the way out (watch the 30 for 30). MJ is the greatest player I have ever seen. But he is also one of the luckiest, in relation to his rise, and others falling. Guys my age overrate the absolute **** out of the early 90's NBA. I love it with all my heart, but outside MJs Bulls, that era had arguably no great teams that stack up with the 80s Celtics and Lakers, or the Spurs, Warriors of later.

ewing
07-28-2019, 12:53 PM
there was/were a few long articles on this. LeBron's finals opponents take a **** on what MJ faced, we all know that (or we are too full of hate to believe it).

I personally feel the 92' Blazers were the best team he faced. Even some of the supposed better teams were littered with playoff chokers (Malone, Payton, etc). He caught a Lakers squad nearly finished, and if we are rolling in the east teams, even the Pistons were on the way out (watch the 30 for 30). MJ is the greatest player I have ever seen. But he is also one of the luckiest, in relation to his rise, and others falling. Guys my age overrate the absolute **** out of the early 90's NBA. I love it with all my heart, but outside MJs Bulls, that era had arguably no great teams that stack up with the 80s Celtics and Lakers, or the Spurs, Warriors of later.

Says the soft West coast guy. You must of been a huge Tom Chambers fan


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Ahriman
07-29-2019, 04:22 AM
I like the cut of your jib. yes the point of my thread was to point out the garbo squads he faced in comparison to the super teams of today. could you honestly envision any of those teams hanging with even mild contenders of recent memory, not even talking about adjusting to an era but comparing their respective eras. I honestly believe some of these squads dont even make the Finals (ECF or otherwise) if they had to take on some of the teams of recent memory.

I think we all agree that none of these finals squad don't hang up with Golden State with Durant.
San Antonio I don't know since they perfected today's game with their ball movement, so it'd be unfair to compare them to early 90's squad when the rules are different

However, the road to the finals was tough back then, the Knicks, Pacers, even the Cavs were no joke. The Magic too but without Horace they were too top heavy with no sort of depth.

Let's not forget that 29 y.o. Barkley was the regular season MVP entering the playoffs. Dude was not done, and his supporting cast was good too.
It's just that back then superteams were really rare

JAZZNC
07-29-2019, 05:48 AM
MJ played with an extremely stacked cast of players. Hell even Ron Harper was a former 20pog scorer. They had 3 first ballot HOF players for the second go round and had arguably (when engaged) three guys who are the best defenders at their position in the history of basketball. There are a lot of reasons they won and a whole bunch of em were that they were just way more talented than everybody else and had MJ to boot. It was almost like the Warriors where they've got a phenomenal team but then you add a "best player in the game" guy to it it's just unfair.

valade16
07-29-2019, 09:06 AM
It's bizarre to me that suddenly everyone on PSD seems to want to determine a team's worth by how many star players they have. Better teams don't necessarily need the most star players. Anyways, since the OP turned this into a Lebron/MJ comparison of the teams they faced, here they are by SRS:

11.35 - 17 Warriors (Bron L)
10.38 - 16 Warriors (Bron W)
10.01 - 15 Warriors (Bron L)
8.35 - 07 Spurs (Bron L)
8.00 - 14 Spurs (Bron L)
7.97 - 97 Jazz (MJ W)
7.40 - 96 Sonics (MJ W)
6.94 - 92 Blazers (MJ W)
6.73 - 91 Lakers (MJ W)
6.67 - 13 Spurs (Bron W)
6.44 - 12 Thunder (Bron W)
6.27 - 93 Suns (MJ W)
5.79 - 18 Warriors (Bron L)
5.73 - 98 Jazz (MJ W)
4.41 - 11 Mavs (Bron L)


So according to SRS, LeBron faced 5 teams in the Finals better than any team MJ ever faced: the Warriors dynasty, the 14 Spurs and the 07 Spurs. But the thing is, he went 1-4 against those teams, in fact the only one he beat had injuries/suspensions during the Finals.

But even taking out all the times LeBron faced better teams, he is still only 2-2 in the Finals. Obviously you could argue the 18 Warriors were far better than their regular season SRS, but even still. The argument that LeBron faced much tougher competition as a reason why his Finals record is worse holds water, but not as much as people think because even against the inferior competition, he still lost.

I also think people let narratives distort the quality of some of the teams MJ faced (the Lakers were on the way out, the Jazz were old, etc.). If the Lakers win in 91 nobody is talking about how they're on the way out. If the Jazz win in 97/98, nobody talks about how old Malone/Stockton were. Those were good teams. The Blazers were very good, the team itself had 6 players who made All-Star teams in their careers in their top 7. It was talented top to bottom.

blams
07-29-2019, 12:37 PM
It's bizarre to me that suddenly everyone on PSD seems to want to determine a team's worth by how many star players they have. Better teams don't necessarily need the most star players. Anyways, since the OP turned this into a Lebron/MJ comparison of the teams they faced, here they are by SRS:

11.35 - 17 Warriors (Bron L)
10.38 - 16 Warriors (Bron W)
10.01 - 15 Warriors (Bron L)
8.35 - 07 Spurs (Bron L)
8.00 - 14 Spurs (Bron L)
7.97 - 97 Jazz (MJ W)
7.40 - 96 Sonics (MJ W)
6.94 - 92 Blazers (MJ W)
6.73 - 91 Lakers (MJ W)
6.67 - 13 Spurs (Bron W)
6.44 - 12 Thunder (Bron W)
6.27 - 93 Suns (MJ W)
5.79 - 18 Warriors (Bron L)
5.73 - 98 Jazz (MJ W)
4.41 - 11 Mavs (Bron L)


So according to SRS, LeBron faced 5 teams in the Finals better than any team MJ ever faced: the Warriors dynasty, the 14 Spurs and the 07 Spurs. But the thing is, he went 1-4 against those teams, in fact the only one he beat had injuries/suspensions during the Finals.

But even taking out all the times LeBron faced better teams, he is still only 2-2 in the Finals. Obviously you could argue the 18 Warriors were far better than their regular season SRS, but even still. The argument that LeBron faced much tougher competition as a reason why his Finals record is worse holds water, but not as much as people think because even against the inferior competition, he still lost.

I also think people let narratives distort the quality of some of the teams MJ faced (the Lakers were on the way out, the Jazz were old, etc.). If the Lakers win in 91 nobody is talking about how they're on the way out. If the Jazz win in 97/98, nobody talks about how old Malone/Stockton were. Those were good teams. The Blazers were very good, the team itself had 6 players who made All-Star teams in their careers in their top 7. It was talented top to bottom.But you can add the 18 Warriors right on to the top of that list as well, any KD plus warriors team was unbeatable.

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valade16
07-29-2019, 12:47 PM
But you can add the 18 Warriors right on to the top of that list as well, any KD plus warriors team was unbeatable.

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Oh I agree. But the point remains, he was playing a ton of top teams but he was losing to all of them. Suppose Bron faced the exact same teams MJ did during his Finals, given his loss vs the Mavs, do we really think LeBron is a lock to have gone 6-0? Those Mavs were the worst team either of them have ever faced in the Finals.

AntiG
07-29-2019, 02:14 PM
the Blazers and Suns teams were tremendous teams. If not for the Bulls buzzsaw, they'd have won it all. They were clearly better than the Knicks and Cavs.

Drexler was an absolute beast in those days, and people were talking about him as the 2nd best player in the entire NBA, and the Jordan's only true rival and the MVP runner up (the only other player worth mentioning really, 12% of the vote while Jordan got 80%). Terry Porter, Buck Williams, Jerome Kearsey, Kevin Duckworth, Danny Ainge, Cliff Robinson and Mark Bryant all were big-time contributors that year on their team. They were good defensively, rebounding and could score slashing, shooting, and on fast breaks. A fantastic squad to watch.

Barkley was the NBA MVP the next year, and that team was Sir Charles + a lot of great role players, almost like a Lebron team. Ainge, Dan Majerle, Kevin Johnson, Cedric Ceballos, Tom Chambers, Richard Dumas, Oliver Miller.

Both of them showed it during the Olympics as well, they alongside MJ were by far the most dominant overall players on the Dream Team during their tour de force.

valade16
07-29-2019, 03:02 PM
the Blazers and Suns teams were tremendous teams. If not for the Bulls buzzsaw, they'd have won it all. They were clearly better than the Knicks and Cavs.

Drexler was an absolute beast in those days, and people were talking about him as the 2nd best player in the entire NBA, and the Jordan's only true rival and the MVP runner up (the only other player worth mentioning really, 12% of the vote while Jordan got 80%). Terry Porter, Buck Williams, Jerome Kearsey, Kevin Duckworth, Danny Ainge, Cliff Robinson and Mark Bryant all were big-time contributors that year on their team. They were good defensively, rebounding and could score slashing, shooting, and on fast breaks. A fantastic squad to watch.

Barkley was the NBA MVP the next year, and that team was Sir Charles + a lot of great role players, almost like a Lebron team. Ainge, Dan Majerle, Kevin Johnson, Cedric Ceballos, Tom Chambers, Richard Dumas, Oliver Miller.

Both of them showed it during the Olympics as well, they alongside MJ were by far the most dominant overall players on the Dream Team during their tour de force.

This is a good point nobody seems to be realizing. Barkley joined a legitimate playoff team in the Suns. They were a good team even before Barkley. In 92 they had the 4th highest SRS in the league at 5.68. They won 53 games (4th most in the West and 6th most in the league) and made it to the second round of the playoffs. He was traded for Jeff Hornacek essentially. Meaning Barkley joined a team that was very good already. The idea that they wouldn't compete with the top teams of today is only true because of KD's move to the Warriors. They'd absolutely be competitive against the contenders of today. Heck, they probably beat the Raptors to be honest.

tredigs
07-29-2019, 03:22 PM
It's bizarre to me that suddenly everyone on PSD seems to want to determine a team's worth by how many star players they have. Better teams don't necessarily need the most star players. Anyways, since the OP turned this into a Lebron/MJ comparison of the teams they faced, here they are by SRS:

11.35 - 17 Warriors (Bron L)
10.38 - 16 Warriors (Bron W)
10.01 - 15 Warriors (Bron L)
8.35 - 07 Spurs (Bron L)
8.00 - 14 Spurs (Bron L)
7.97 - 97 Jazz (MJ W)
7.40 - 96 Sonics (MJ W)
6.94 - 92 Blazers (MJ W)
6.73 - 91 Lakers (MJ W)
6.67 - 13 Spurs (Bron W)
6.44 - 12 Thunder (Bron W)
6.27 - 93 Suns (MJ W)
5.79 - 18 Warriors (Bron L)
5.73 - 98 Jazz (MJ W)
4.41 - 11 Mavs (Bron L)


So according to SRS, LeBron faced 5 teams in the Finals better than any team MJ ever faced: the Warriors dynasty, the 14 Spurs and the 07 Spurs. But the thing is, he went 1-4 against those teams, in fact the only one he beat had injuries/suspensions during the Finals.

But even taking out all the times LeBron faced better teams, he is still only 2-2 in the Finals. Obviously you could argue the 18 Warriors were far better than their regular season SRS, but even still. The argument that LeBron faced much tougher competition as a reason why his Finals record is worse holds water, but not as much as people think because even against the inferior competition, he still lost.

I also think people let narratives distort the quality of some of the teams MJ faced (the Lakers were on the way out, the Jazz were old, etc.). If the Lakers win in 91 nobody is talking about how they're on the way out. If the Jazz win in 97/98, nobody talks about how old Malone/Stockton were. Those were good teams. The Blazers were very good, the team itself had 6 players who made All-Star teams in their careers in their top 7. It was talented top to bottom.

This is the most cogent post in this thread. It also bears mentioning that nobody ever discounts the teams Lebron has faced in the Finals, it's the teams he has faced to get there that earn the eye rolls when "8 straight Finals" are mentioned. It's still an incredible feat, but one there is exactly 0% chance he earns if the playoffs were not split by conference. The average net rating of his playoff opponents is +3.8. That is roughly equivalent to last years Oladipo-less Pacers. You can only play who is in front of you, but let's just say it's not historically impressive to beat a host of middling teams then get torched in the Finals more often than not.

nastynice
07-29-2019, 03:30 PM
It's bizarre to me that suddenly everyone on PSD seems to want to determine a team's worth by how many star players they have. Better teams don't necessarily need the most star players. Anyways, since the OP turned this into a Lebron/MJ comparison of the teams they faced, here they are by SRS:

11.35 - 17 Warriors (Bron L)
10.38 - 16 Warriors (Bron W)
10.01 - 15 Warriors (Bron L)
8.35 - 07 Spurs (Bron L)
8.00 - 14 Spurs (Bron L)
7.97 - 97 Jazz (MJ W)
7.40 - 96 Sonics (MJ W)
6.94 - 92 Blazers (MJ W)
6.73 - 91 Lakers (MJ W)
6.67 - 13 Spurs (Bron W)
6.44 - 12 Thunder (Bron W)
6.27 - 93 Suns (MJ W)
5.79 - 18 Warriors (Bron L)
5.73 - 98 Jazz (MJ W)
4.41 - 11 Mavs (Bron L)


So according to SRS, LeBron faced 5 teams in the Finals better than any team MJ ever faced: the Warriors dynasty, the 14 Spurs and the 07 Spurs. But the thing is, he went 1-4 against those teams, in fact the only one he beat had injuries/suspensions during the Finals.

But even taking out all the times LeBron faced better teams, he is still only 2-2 in the Finals. Obviously you could argue the 18 Warriors were far better than their regular season SRS, but even still. The argument that LeBron faced much tougher competition as a reason why his Finals record is worse holds water, but not as much as people think because even against the inferior competition, he still lost.

I also think people let narratives distort the quality of some of the teams MJ faced (the Lakers were on the way out, the Jazz were old, etc.). If the Lakers win in 91 nobody is talking about how they're on the way out. If the Jazz win in 97/98, nobody talks about how old Malone/Stockton were. Those were good teams. The Blazers were very good, the team itself had 6 players who made All-Star teams in their careers in their top 7. It was talented top to bottom.

Jazz weren't old that was their prime.

nastynice
07-29-2019, 03:31 PM
This is the most cogent post in this thread. It also bears mentioning that nobody ever discounts the teams Lebron has faced in the Finals, it's the teams he has faced to get there that earn the eye rolls when "8 straight Finals" are mentioned. It's still an incredible feat, but one there is exactly 0% chance he earns if the playoffs were not split by conference. The average net rating of his playoff opponents is +3.8. That is roughly equivalent to last years Oladipo-less Pacers. You can only play who is in front of you, but let's just say it's not historically impressive to beat a host of middling teams then get torched in the Finals more often than not.

I think 8 straight is very impressive, especially after seeing what toll 5 straight took on the warriors

tredigs
07-29-2019, 03:38 PM
I think 8 straight is very impressive, especially after seeing what toll 5 straight took on the warriors

It is impressive, "an incredible feat" I might even say...

But it would be 10X more impressive if theh were beating teams the caliber of the Rockets or the 2016 Thunder in order to achieve that feat. Not all greats get to squeak by the Jayson Tatum led Celtics in the ECF's before getting swept again in the Finals.

ewing
07-30-2019, 06:53 AM
It is impressive, "an incredible feat" I might even say...

But it would be 10X more impressive if theh were beating teams the caliber of the Rockets or the 2016 Thunder in order to achieve that feat. Not all greats get to squeak by the Jayson Tatum led Celtics in the ECF's before getting swept again in the Finals.

Maybe the best players of this generation arenít that great??


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valade16
07-30-2019, 08:11 AM
Maybe the best players of this generation arenít that great??

Make players great again

WaDe03
07-30-2019, 09:45 AM
Maybe the best players of this generation arenít that great??


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Donít start this brother, they are. The East was weak as hell when Jordan was running through it and same for Magic Johnson and the West

MarkieMark48
07-30-2019, 10:10 AM
It is impressive, "an incredible feat" I might even say...

But it would be 10X more impressive if theh were beating teams the caliber of the Rockets or the 2016 Thunder in order to achieve that feat. Not all greats get to squeak by the Jayson Tatum led Celtics in the ECF's before getting swept again in the Finals.

Why did no players want to come east since it was such a cakewalk to the finals?

Ahriman
07-30-2019, 10:30 AM
The East was weak as hell when Jordan was running through it

Lol, the 90's Knicks and Pacers were head and shoulders above the competition LeBron has had to face post Boston big 3, what are you talking about
Agreed on Lakers' competition in the 80s

Ahriman
07-30-2019, 10:37 AM
Why did no players want to come east since it was such a cakewalk to the finals?

It was a combination of several things:

- Boston and Detroit aging and declining teams
- Dwight wanting out of Orlando
- Teaming up with DWade/Bosh who were both on Eastern Conf teams
- D-Rose injury (however you rate the guy it was still one less obstacle)

The East lost a good amount of guys due to trade or injury. The only team that gave LeBron a real run for his money during his Heat tenure on the East were the PG13 led Indiana Pacers. Had he not broken his leg, I'd have been curious to see a Cavs/Pacers series the following year

Heediot
07-30-2019, 10:38 AM
Lol, the 90's Knicks and Pacers were head and shoulders above the competition LeBron has had to face post Boston big 3, what are you talking about
Agreed on Lakers' competition in the 80s

Orlando with Shaq were a nice team too.

Those Mark Price/Daughtery/Nance cavs were solid.

Pistons were good till Zeke was slowed by injuries.

WaDe03
07-30-2019, 10:55 AM
Lol, the 90's Knicks and Pacers were head and shoulders above the competition LeBron has had to face post Boston big 3, what are you talking about
Agreed on Lakers' competition in the 80s

No they werenít lmao, they were nothing special. The Knicks gave them trouble once and and Pacers gave them trouble the only time they ever played I believe. Hell those PG led Pacers were just as good. The Hawks teams that were always close to 1st, the raptors who only LeBron was beating, the Celtics that you mentioned. If the Bulls played tougher competition it wasnít by much if at all.

jericho
07-30-2019, 10:57 AM
We are trying to put down MJs competition but I'm going to go in a different route. What if the Bulls where able to form their own big 3 and Jordan never retired. What if the Bulls got Hakeem along with that squad. I know the cap but let's throw that out for a min. The 90s team didn't have the benefit that this teams now a days do.

cmellofan15
07-30-2019, 11:32 AM
We are trying to put down MJs competition but I'm going to go in a different route. What if the Bulls where able to form their own big 3 and Jordan never retired. What if the Bulls got Hakeem along with that squad. I know the cap but let's throw that out for a min. The 90s team didn't have the benefit that this teams now a days do.

yeah speaking of stupid hypotheticals what if lebron was 5 years younger and got to play with prime shaq on the lakers?

ewing
07-30-2019, 11:35 AM
yeah speaking of stupid hypotheticals what if lebron was 5 years younger and got to play with prime shaq on the lakers?

He would have cried his way off the team b/c there would have been a better paint player

Ahriman
07-30-2019, 11:43 AM
No they werenít lmao, they were nothing special. The Knicks gave them trouble once and and Pacers gave them trouble the only time they ever played I believe. Hell those PG led Pacers were just as good. The Hawks teams that were always close to 1st, the raptors who only LeBron was beating, the Celtics that you mentioned. If the Bulls played tougher competition it wasnít by much if at all.

Notice I was talking post Boston big 3. During LeBron first stint with the Cavs the East competition was legit
Hawks were a pretender with no stars on the squad, and no presence in the paint
Raptors pre-Kawhi were pretenders too, didn't they get ousted by Brooklyn in the first round, then got swept by Washington? Lol please

Heediot is true, I forgot to mention the Cavs with Price/Nance/Daugherty who were no pushovers
Orlando was nice too but a bit top heavy cause Horace was injured when Chicago beat them

As much as I liked PG led Indiana, they wouldn't have lasted long against the 90's Knicks

jericho
07-30-2019, 11:45 AM
yeah speaking of stupid hypotheticals what if lebron was 5 years younger and got to play with prime shaq on the lakers?

The reason why I asked that hypothetical what if. Is because we saw what Lebron did with his own big 3 specially with somebody in Wade that was given a title before him. And then the Warriors which KD joined after they had a 73-9 record and have won a title as well. Not trying to put anybody down. But the only other superstar that won a title in the 90s pairing up with Jordan. Is just a topic worth dicusion

Ahriman
07-30-2019, 12:15 PM
We could go the Valade way and rate the East Competition for each of the years both went to the finals, for SRS above 4.00 (which is the level the Mavs were in 2011)

7.29 - Toronto - 2018 ECSF - LBJ
6.53 - Chicago - 2011 ECF - LBJ
6.30 - Cleveland - 1993 ECSF - MJ
6.25 - Indiana - 1998 ECF - MJ
5.87 - New York - 1993 ECF - MJ
5.56 - Miami - 1997 ECF - MJ
5.51 - Atlanta - 1997 ECSF - MJ
5.40 - Orlando - 1996 ECF - MJ
5.34 - Cleveland - 1992 ECF - MJ
4.83 - Boston - 2011 ECSF - LBJ
4.75 - Atlanta - 2015 ECF - LBJ
4.08 - Toronto - 2016 ECF - LBJ

Of the list, MJ has had to face a routinely harder competition to get to the finals. 2011 Chicago was the first year of Miami Big 3 with Wade and Bosh still at their highest level. I didn't think 2018 Toronto would be this high, so I guess they laid a huge egg during that series, allowing a 583% EFG% and being swept
PG-led Indiana were not as high as I thought they'd be either.

Not a big debate on the East competition in the 90's vs the 2010's quite honestly

Wrigheyes4MVP
07-30-2019, 02:11 PM
It's not the strength of the teams Lebron faced in the finals that I criticize. It's the Eastern Conference teams he faced to get to the finals that were really weak.

cmellofan15
07-30-2019, 10:33 PM
He would have cried his way off the team b/c there would have been a better paint player

I think you're thinking of a guy named Kobe Bryant. I guess it's easy to get them confused when you don't watch any games :shrug:

MarkieMark48
07-31-2019, 08:38 AM
It was a combination of several things:

- Boston and Detroit aging and declining teams
- Dwight wanting out of Orlando
- Teaming up with DWade/Bosh who were both on Eastern Conf teams
- D-Rose injury (however you rate the guy it was still one less obstacle)

The East lost a good amount of guys due to trade or injury. The only team that gave LeBron a real run for his money during his Heat tenure on the East were the PG13 led Indiana Pacers. Had he not broken his leg, I'd have been curious to see a Cavs/Pacers series the following year

Doesn't really answer my question....

Boston had Miami down 3-2 in 2012 before Lebron went crazy games 6 & 7, so that statement isn't entirely true.

Ahriman
07-31-2019, 09:08 AM
Doesn't really answer my question....

Boston had Miami down 3-2 in 2012 before Lebron went crazy games 6 & 7, so that statement isn't entirely true.

Your question was "why did no one come East since it was a cakewalk to the finals"
No matter how you brush it, Miami was favorite against 4th seed Celtics that year. Garnett, Pierce and Allen were respectively 35, 34 and 36 so it was the tail end of the Boston Big 3

I believe to have answered your question in earnest

For the record i don't think going .429 / .200 / .706 in game 7 is what I call "going crazy" but it's true that his game 6 performance was colossal

MarkieMark48
07-31-2019, 10:07 AM
Your question was "why did no one come East since it was a cakewalk to the finals"
No matter how you brush it, Miami was favorite against 4th seed Celtics that year. Garnett, Pierce and Allen were respectively 35, 34 and 36 so it was the tail end of the Boston Big 3

I believe to have answered your question in earnest

For the record i don't think going .429 / .200 / .706 in game 7 is what I call "going crazy" but it's true that his game 6 performance was colossal

I don't care who was favored, end result was Boston gave them a "run for their money"

It just doesn't make sense to me as to why no one came east if the east was just so easy to breeze through.... Unless players don't care about winning as much as I think they do

Ahriman
07-31-2019, 10:58 AM
Going by your logic, LBJ led team in the past 8 years have won by the following:

4-0: 9 times
4-1: 7 times
4-2: 4 times
4-3: 4 times

So basically, they swept 37.5% of their opponent, while another 29% went only to 5

By ignoring which team was favored, like you do, one can conclude than the East was pretty damn weak these past 8 years

MarkieMark48
07-31-2019, 01:04 PM
Going by your logic, LBJ led team in the past 8 years have won by the following:

4-0: 9 times
4-1: 7 times
4-2: 4 times
4-3: 4 times

So basically, they swept 37.5% of their opponent, while another 29% went only to 5

By ignoring which team was favored, like you do, one can conclude than the East was pretty damn weak these past 8 years

Dude... you said the only team to give Lebron's Heat a run for their money was the pacers... all I said was that's not true bc the Celtics had them down 3-2 in 2012. Is that not a run for their money? My Logic on that only applied to your statement. Are you saying bc the heat was favored in that series it doesn't count as a close series?

What was Golden State's series counts on their victories the past 5 years? I bet those counts could make the west look pretty weak too. What about Jordan's Bulls eastern win count? I'm not disputing that the east wasn't weak (it wasn't any weaker than the west in the 80's but whatever), I'm just trying to figure out why no one wanted to come over and challenge since (I assume) we all agree the east was just whatever team Lebron is on to beat to get to the finals.

ewing
07-31-2019, 01:05 PM
I think you're thinking of a guy named Kobe Bryant. I guess it's easy to get them confused when you don't watch any games :shrug:

No Kobe let Shaq play inside. He actually never demanded total control of the ball or forced all his teammates to be floor spacers


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hidalgo
07-31-2019, 02:08 PM
i'd give Jordan the advantage any day over LeBron in terms of playoff/finals competition

Jordan's road there was always harder and he faced way better teams in the East

the finals, Lebron's best team he beat was the 2016 warriors. and i think the bulls would have beat them in 5 or 6 games. i really feel like quite a few teams that Jordan beat would take them out as well. 91 pistons, 91 lakers, 92 knicks, 93 knicks, 93 suns, 96 magic, 96 sonics, 97 jazz, 98 pacers, 98 jazz. same goes for the 2013 Spurs, those teams would have a great shot at beating them. Jordan competition was better, and he beat more teams. easy to cry excuses cause you lost, and say Jordan couldn't beat them either, but he beat teams every bit on their level

the best teams lebron lost to were the 2017 and 2018 warriors. well, the rockets took them 7 games, and the rockets aren't in the 90s Bulls league. so i'd take the Bulls over them all day. they're better defensively for sure(Scottie on Durant, MJ on Klay, Harper on Curry, Rodman on Green. or switch Rodman to Durant and Pippen to Klay, Jordan to Curry, etc. way too much defense for the warriors to handle) , and they have the GOAT. Lebron never stood a chance against them. MJ would beat them

valade16
07-31-2019, 02:48 PM
No Kobe let Shaq play inside. He actually never demanded total control of the ball or forced all his teammates to be floor spacers

You mean other than when he essentially forced Shaq out of LA?

MarkieMark48
07-31-2019, 03:28 PM
i'd give Jordan the advantage any day over LeBron in terms of playoff/finals competition

Jordan's road there was always harder and he faced way better teams in the East

the finals, Lebron's best team he beat was the 2016 warriors. and i think the bulls would have beat them in 5 or 6 games. i really feel like quite a few teams that Jordan beat would take them out as well. 91 pistons, 91 lakers, 92 knicks, 93 knicks, 93 suns, 96 magic, 96 sonics, 97 jazz, 98 pacers, 98 jazz. same goes for the 2013 Spurs, those teams would have a great shot at beating them. Jordan competition was better, and he beat more teams. easy to cry excuses cause you lost, and say Jordan couldn't beat them either, but he beat teams every bit on their level

the best teams lebron lost to were the 2017 and 2018 warriors. well, the rockets took them 7 games, and the rockets aren't in the 90s Bulls league. so i'd take the Bulls over them all day. they're better defensively for sure(Scottie on Durant, MJ on Klay, Harper on Curry, Rodman on Green. or switch Rodman to Durant and Pippen to Klay, Jordan to Curry, etc. way too much defense for the warriors to handle) , and they have the GOAT. Lebron never stood a chance against them. MJ would beat them

If youre stance is that the 72-10 Bulls team is the best team ever, I don't think youll get much push back. I think the KD warriors teams have more talent, but as far as actually playing as a team on a nightly basis I think the Bulls would have the edge. Personally I think Head to head comparisons of teams from different eras are extremely hard to determine who would win.

Swap MJ onto Lebron's cavs teams against those Warriors teams he lost to, do you think he beats the Warriors?

And for the record, I do not think Lebron is better than Michael Jordan

Bostonjorge
07-31-2019, 03:29 PM
The biggest miss for Jordan is never playing Dream in a 7 game series. Both drafted together and Dream is a top 10 player ever. Dream took down a strong Lakers team in 86 but lost to the Celtics in the finals. If Dream got Drexler in 92 then Rockets vs Bulls for sure happens more then once.

hidalgo
07-31-2019, 06:12 PM
The biggest miss for Jordan is never playing Dream in a 7 game series. Both drafted together and Dream is a top 10 player ever. Dream took down a strong Lakers team in 86 but lost to the Celtics in the finals. If Dream got Drexler in 92 then Rockets vs Bulls for sure happens more then once.

he did take out Olajuwon and Drexler on houston in the NCAA final 4, the game before they won the championship. but yea never managed to meet in the NBA finals

cmellofan15
07-31-2019, 11:56 PM
No Kobe let Shaq play inside. He actually never demanded total control of the ball or forced all his teammates to be floor spacers


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Sure he let him inside. Up until he demanded total control of the ball and forced all his teammates to be floor spacers...well the ones he didn't force off the team

Hawkeye15
08-01-2019, 02:54 PM
Says the soft West coast guy. You must of been a huge Tom Chambers fan


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in the 90s? MJ, Payton, Barkley, and Hakeem were my jam. Doesn't change the fact our age group overrated the ever living **** out of that generation. Everyone overrates everything from their ages 12-20 or so. Face it, you and I still think the movies and music from 85-95', are the best ever made more or less. Nostalgia influences everything dude.

ewing
08-01-2019, 03:08 PM
You mean other than when he essentially forced Shaq out of LA?

They didnít get along. He didnít expect him to be still at the 3 point line while Kobe directed everything


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valade16
08-02-2019, 08:20 AM
They didnít get along. He didnít expect him to be still at the 3 point line while Kobe directed everything

He did expect him to take a backseat and let Kobe be the man. If you don't think that Kobe also wanted to shoot more and be more of a focal point of the team you are misremembering.

Hawkeye15
08-06-2019, 11:49 AM
They didnít get along. He didnít expect him to be still at the 3 point line while Kobe directed everything


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dude are you totally forgetting Kobe Bryant haha? Cmon

Dude basically forced LA to ditch Shaq, tried to force a trade in the single transition period of his entire career where he didn't have chip help, and was a constant pain in the *** for his teammates, coaching staff, and FO. His talent made it so they all dealt with him, of course. But as much as you ride LeBron for being a bad, or selfish teammate, you gotta be kidding me sitting here defending Kobe...

Can you imagine Kobe if given what LeBron was his first 7 years? I mean he demanded a trade from a team that gave him Shaq, and 3 chips worth of help, because of 2 down years. You really think he wouldn't have diva'ed his way out of Cleveland in 2 minutes, assuming he even accepted being drafted there in the first place (he wouldn't)?

I know you hate LeBron. I get it. But defending Kobe is ridiculous.

Heediot
08-06-2019, 12:04 PM
MJ faced harder comp. in the East vs. LeBron. But outside of the year he came back and the Shaq led Magic, in any other series during the 6 titles, it would have been a shock if he lost. Maybe the Bad Boy pistons could of done something to him as well after their 2 peat. This is coming from a MJ stan.

I think people over-rate his help though. Yeah they won a lot of games without him when he retired, but that team would get exposed in the playoffs without him. It was a well oiled/coached team that had guys who knew their role and they functioned well without him. Make no mistake though, they were 1st/2nd round fodder imo. Harper was on the decline, Rodman wasn't the same perimeter defender, although he was still a beast defender/rebounder even for an aging guy. Pippen didn't show as much outside of Chi, but he was getting Older when he left and MJ had him in his prime. Guys like Longley and Kukoc didn't fare better and could be argued fared worse out side of Chicago. Steve Kerr was just a specialist. They surrounded MJ with the right players and guys that could play off his dominance.

I think Valade mentioned how the suns were a solid team before sir Charles arrived to boot (earlier in the thread), to put things in perspective.

ewing
08-06-2019, 08:09 PM
He did expect him to take a backseat and let Kobe be the man. If you don't think that Kobe also wanted to shoot more and be more of a focal point of the team you are misremembering.

Iíll repeat ďhe didnít ask him to stand in the corner and watchĒ.


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ewing
08-06-2019, 08:12 PM
dude are you totally forgetting Kobe Bryant haha? Cmon

Dude basically forced LA to ditch Shaq, tried to force a trade in the single transition period of his entire career where he didn't have chip help, and was a constant pain in the *** for his teammates, coaching staff, and FO. His talent made it so they all dealt with him, of course. But as much as you ride LeBron for being a bad, or selfish teammate, you gotta be kidding me sitting here defending Kobe...

Can you imagine Kobe if given what LeBron was his first 7 years? I mean he demanded a trade from a team that gave him Shaq, and 3 chips worth of help, because of 2 down years. You really think he wouldn't have diva'ed his way out of Cleveland in 2 minutes, assuming he even accepted being drafted there in the first place (he wouldn't)?

I know you hate LeBron. I get it. But defending Kobe is ridiculous.

He might have been a pain in the *** but there is one superstar diva on his own level in NBA history and we both know who it is. David Griffin just came out saying how miserable his time was in Clev. Jesus heís still playing and a top NBA player and these are stories that swirl around him. The guy is on his own level


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valade16
08-06-2019, 09:23 PM
Iíll repeat ďhe didnít ask him to stand in the corner and watchĒ.

He did worse, he said "go stand on a different court"

valade16
08-06-2019, 09:24 PM
He might have been a pain in the *** but there is one superstar diva on his own level in NBA history and we both know who it is. David Griffin just came out saying how miserable his time was in Clev. Jesus heís still playing and a top NBA player and these are stories that swirl around him. The guy is on his own level

I don't think I've ever met someone who hates another player as much as you hate LeBron James.

ewing
08-06-2019, 10:38 PM
I don't think I've ever met someone who hates another player as much as you hate LeBron James.

Maybe if he wasnít so hateable


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Tg11
08-07-2019, 09:41 AM
97 and 98 Jazz teams were the toughest competitions that MJ and company had

ewing
08-07-2019, 04:49 PM
97 and 98 Jazz teams were the toughest competitions that MJ and company had

Thatís not true


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Bostonjorge
08-11-2019, 07:22 PM
96 Magic team was scary. Penny became elite and had his best season. Penny gave Pippen all kinds of problems. Nick was a big tough guard and D3 was automatic from deep. Grant gave leadership to young quick and strong Shaq. Shaw could hit 3ís off of Shaq double teams. Big long team. This team would of got 1 if they stayed together past this season.

96 Jordan was on fire and wanted to prove he was still #1. Wearing the Bred 11ís Jordan came out and swept this team. Rodman was also a beast. 16 rebounds a game and 21 rebounds in game 1.

Alik92
08-11-2019, 08:20 PM
Jordan always was an icon of this sport.

GREATNESS ONE
08-11-2019, 08:43 PM
A lot of people forget just how good Michael Jordan was..

VCaintdead17
08-11-2019, 09:04 PM
A lot of people forget just how good Michael Jordan was..

Agreed. He was almost as good as prime LeBron.

Jeffy25
08-11-2019, 11:00 PM
Lol, the 90's Knicks and Pacers were head and shoulders above the competition LeBron has had to face post Boston big 3, what are you talking about
Agreed on Lakers' competition in the 80s

People also forget that the 90's was littered with expansion inflated teams that had no talent or depth spread around all the teams.

Heediot
08-12-2019, 12:16 AM
Agreed. He was almost as good as prime LeBron.

If Bron had his jumper now combined with his abilty to attack the lane in his prime you'd have an argument.

MJ was more complete in his prime. Had more killer instinct and was more clutch.

Bron could probably carry a team by himself farther. But MJ was the guy you would want leading your team in a finals. Pick your choice, I'm going with the latter. MJ himself could take the team far enough, but when it mattered most nobody in nba history strikes fear into the hearts of opponents.

cheetos185
08-12-2019, 11:46 AM
MJ was playing in era when teams played dirty and threw hard fouls. LeBron plays in a era where no one is allowed to breath 3ft near him lol. I would still take LeBron over MJ though because he can pass rebound and guard all position.

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Jeffy25
08-13-2019, 02:10 AM
MJ was playing in era when teams played dirty and threw hard fouls. LeBron plays in a era where no one is allowed to breath 3ft near him lol. I would still take LeBron over MJ though because he can pass rebound and guard all position.

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I think people grossly over state how aggressive, physical, and dirty the 80's and 90's were.

Watch any playoff hardwood classic game from that era, and then watch a playoff game from this era. It's not nearly as different as people like to embellish, though, the physicality is greater than, I don't think it's as bad as people think (with some teams being the exceptions, like the Pistons).

Heediot
08-13-2019, 03:27 AM
I think people grossly over state how aggressive, physical, and dirty the 80's and 90's were.

Watch any playoff hardwood classic game from that era, and then watch a playoff game from this era. It's not nearly as different as people like to embellish, though, the physicality is greater than, I don't think it's as bad as people think (with some teams being the exceptions, like the Pistons).

Certain teams played a more physical Brand, some rivalry games got heated. If guys drove too much with success, teams would get more physical with said player if he was having his way. A few hacks to send a message. Guys could be up in your grill more without being whistled, so creating space for a shot took more skill.

It was more physical and you needed more grit. But yeah it's not crazy physical consistently like bad boy pistons highlights.

valade16
08-13-2019, 10:45 AM
People also forget that the 90's was littered with expansion inflated teams that had no talent or depth spread around all the teams.

MJ did exist in a league with many expansion teams that sucked, but to be fair LeBron has been existing in a league with many teams intentionally tanking to be terrible.

The 2016 76ers won 10 games and the 2012 Bobcats won 7 games (in a 66 game season). That's akin to any expansion team for sure.

Not to mention of the 4 teams that were expansion teams in 89/90 (T-Wolves, Heat, Hornets and Magic), 3/4 teams ended up making the playoffs within their first 5 years.

JAZZNC
08-13-2019, 06:37 PM
MJ did exist in a league with many expansion teams that sucked, but to be fair LeBron has been existing in a league with many teams intentionally tanking to be terrible.

The 2016 76ers won 10 games and the 2012 Bobcats won 7 games (in a 66 game season). That's akin to any expansion team for sure.

Not to mention of the 4 teams that were expansion teams in 89/90 (T-Wolves, Heat, Hornets and Magic), 3/4 teams ended up making the playoffs within their first 5 years.

And when you factor in all the super teams consolidating talent into just a few teams there are still plenty of completely garbage teams in today's NBA. It's not really a lot different.

Jeffy25
08-15-2019, 01:37 PM
MJ did exist in a league with many expansion teams that sucked, but to be fair LeBron has been existing in a league with many teams intentionally tanking to be terrible.
And that's true, but those tanking teams aren't in the playoffs.

The concept of deflated rosters because of expansion affects every team, and makes the stars look even more great.

If a league goes from 24 teams with a total 5 starters per team and 12 total roster players per team one year, and then 30 teams with the same starters and total players the next year, the talent disparity is incredible.

You go from 120 starters to 150 starters, and from 288 total players to 360.

So all the previous years 6th and 7th men are now starters in the new league, and the guys who couldn't make the league as the 289th-360th best players, are now on a bench.

This just means that guys who were former bench players, are now getting serious minutes, and teams making the playoffs don't have as deep of a bench to go to. The stars of the league look even greater (numbers specifically) because they continue to feast on these types of players even more.

Same thing has happened in baseball. Every time there was a big league expansion, the best players during that expansion have their numbers just blow way up. Barry Bonds took steroids, yes. But he also got to face AAA level pitching in hitters parks in the middle of doing that. That's how you get multiple players breaking home run records. Those same players were taking steroids in the 80's and 90's, but it wasn't until expansion that home run records started to fall, while the best pitchers in the league continued to post incredible ERA's (Pedro Martinez, Roger Clemens, etc). The greats are now facing a lot of really bad competition.

Same thing for Jordan. He got to face guys like Ervin Johnson and Frank Brickowski who would never had a starting role in Seattle if it wasn't for expansion, but the guys each start 3 games in the Finals.

It's just a lot easier to have a super team and have the stars be extra special when expansion happens.

LeBron is facing tanking teams, which is great during the regular season. But he's also being pulled after the 3rd quarter in those games, is sitting regular season games to rest for the playoffs, and isn't facing those kinds of teams and players in the playoffs, where stars are intentionally joining together to form super teams just to beat him.


The roster expansion argument isn't relegated to only the teams who expanded. It's that the talent is reduced throughout the entire league, and guys become starters and play more minutes that wouldn't have been playing in the pre-expansion era.

valade16
08-15-2019, 02:38 PM
And that's true, but those tanking teams aren't in the playoffs.

The concept of deflated rosters because of expansion affects every team, and makes the stars look even more great.

If a league goes from 24 teams with a total 5 starters per team and 12 total roster players per team one year, and then 30 teams with the same starters and total players the next year, the talent disparity is incredible.

You go from 120 starters to 150 starters, and from 288 total players to 360.

So all the previous years 6th and 7th men are now starters in the new league, and the guys who couldn't make the league as the 289th-360th best players, are now on a bench.

This just means that guys who were former bench players, are now getting serious minutes, and teams making the playoffs don't have as deep of a bench to go to. The stars of the league look even greater (numbers specifically) because they continue to feast on these types of players even more.

Same thing has happened in baseball. Every time there was a big league expansion, the best players during that expansion have their numbers just blow way up. Barry Bonds took steroids, yes. But he also got to face AAA level pitching in hitters parks in the middle of doing that. That's how you get multiple players breaking home run records. Those same players were taking steroids in the 80's and 90's, but it wasn't until expansion that home run records started to fall, while the best pitchers in the league continued to post incredible ERA's (Pedro Martinez, Roger Clemens, etc). The greats are now facing a lot of really bad competition.

Same thing for Jordan. He got to face guys like Ervin Johnson and Frank Brickowski who would never had a starting role in Seattle if it wasn't for expansion, but the guys each start 3 games in the Finals.

It's just a lot easier to have a super team and have the stars be extra special when expansion happens.

LeBron is facing tanking teams, which is great during the regular season. But he's also being pulled after the 3rd quarter in those games, is sitting regular season games to rest for the playoffs, and isn't facing those kinds of teams and players in the playoffs, where stars are intentionally joining together to form super teams just to beat him.

The roster expansion argument isn't relegated to only the teams who expanded. It's that the talent is reduced throughout the entire league, and guys become starters and play more minutes that wouldn't have been playing in the pre-expansion era.

Not really because you're assuming an even reduction to every team in talent once an expansion team comes in. But that isn't how it works, because unlike say Hockey, expansion teams in the NBA don't get to take a player off of every team.

For instance, MJ beat the Los Angeles Lakers in the Finals after 4 expansion teams entered the league. The Lakers actually added Vlade Divac to a team of Byron Scott, Magic Johnson, James Worthy, Mychal Thompson, and A.C. Green from their 1988 Title team to their 1991 Finals team.

The Blazers' top 6 players on their Finals team were on the team the 2 years prior even during the expansion. In fact, that team managed to add Danny Ainge as their 7th leading scorer, who had just come off averaging 17 PPG in Sacto.

The Suns did not feature any roster degradation from expansion. They added Charles Barkley to a core that featured Kevin Johnson, Dan Majerle, Cedric Ceballos, Tom Chambers, etc.

So already MJ managed to win as many titles as Bron with zero effect to the quality of his opposition due to expansion teams.

Then we come to your smoking gun, that 2 bums started 3 games apiece in the Finals vs MJ, and had there not been an expansion draft they would have been filled by marginally better players facing MJ. Well they played a combined 88 minutes in the series. Out of 1440 minutes. That means they were in the game 6% of the series. In fact, 81.5% of Seattle's minutes that series were to Gary Payton, Shawn Kemp, Detlef Schrempf, Hersey Hawkins, and Sam Perkins. MJ faced quality players the majority of the series. Brickowski and Ervin Johnson playing 6% of the time were not the reason MJ beat Seattle...

In fact, the only team to defeat MJ's Bulls in the 90's were the expansion Orlando Magic. So about the only thing we can say with certainty is that expansion teams made it tougher on MJ because without the Magic as an expansion team, he wouldn't have faced Penny/Shaq in the Finals. The only reason they were on a team together is because the Magic improbably won the 1st pick in back to back years. The chances of that happening again are very remote, meaning without expansion teams Shaq would have gone to a different team than Penny.

Then we come down to the even more damning evidence: LeBron faced some scrub starters in his Finals series as well.

Thabo Sefolosha and Kendrick Persons each started 5 games against LeBron in the Finals. Even in the 90's they were not starting caliber. In the finals they both averaged 4 PPG on below .45 TS%. They were scrub buckets. But they didn't play 6% of the Finals vs Bron, they played 20.5% of the series.

I'd rather face Thabo and Kendrick for 20% of a series than Brickowski and Ervin for 6%.


So while it seems like a good argument to try to knock MJ for all the expansion teams, when you look at the actual rosters you'll see they weren't really affected much. And this makes sense. They didn't have FA like they do now and not many players moved via FA. So basically all the expansion did was take a top quality team's 22nd pick and make it a 26th pick, which yeah they get a player a little worse on average, but they are not really having the level of talent drain you are implying.

Heediot
08-15-2019, 05:50 PM
Bulls actually lost a starting role player to the expansion draft in BJ Armstrong. He might have been the only starter drafted by the Raps and Grizzlies. He was a fringe starter at best, but his shooting complemented MJ. So the expansion draft hurt Chicago arguably more vs. any other team. Although they were willing to move on salary wise from him.

JordansBulls
08-16-2019, 10:48 PM
The only truly All-Time level teams he faced he lost to, I guess the 50 win Pistons and the Kareem less Lakers come closest but they went out in a whimper. IDK if most would rank them above the 90's Knicks tbh.



So here are the top Squads;

91Pistons (50 Wins/3.08 SRS) HOF Backcourt and prime Rodman.
91 Lakers (58 WIns/6.73 SRS) Magic Johnson and injured Scott+Worthy
92 Blazers (57 WIns/6.94 SRS) Clyde Drexler and Terry Porter headline this squad....
93 Suns (62 Wins/6.27 SRS) Older Charles and Creepy KJ and a defenseless Suns squad
93 Knicks (60 Wins/5.87 SRS) These Knicks hit their peak level the following year when MJ retired. They had taken the Bulls to 7 the year prior, so either one works for me

96 Magic (60 Wins/5.40 SRS) Penny+Shaq with an injured Horace Grant
96 Sonics (64 Wins/7.40 SRS) Hobbled GP and peak Kemp
97 Jazz (64 Wins/7.97 SRS) Old man versions of Stockton and Malone



Rank em and ask yourself, do these teams hang tough with some of the contenders of the 2010's

98 Jazz went thru peak Hakeem, Drexler, Barkley and them peak Robinson and Duncan and then peak Shaq, Kobe, Van Exel, Jones. They would crush the Warriors, 2017 would have lost to Spurs had Kawhi not gotten injured.

valade16
08-19-2019, 08:47 AM
98 Jazz went thru peak Hakeem, Drexler, Barkley and them peak Robinson and Duncan and then peak Shaq, Kobe, Van Exel, Jones. They would crush the Warriors, 2017 would have lost to Spurs had Kawhi not gotten injured.

I don't think you can call any of those teams peak. Drexler, Hakeem and Barkley were 35, 35 and 34 and were injured much of the year. It was literally Duncan's rookie year. Kobe averaged 15 PPG as a 19 yr old for the Lakers.

Impressive but they caught the Rockets on the downside of their careers and the Spurs/Lakers before they hit their primes.

JAZZNC
08-20-2019, 05:45 AM
I don't think you can call any of those teams peak. Drexler, Hakeem and Barkley were 35, 35 and 34 and were injured much of the year. It was literally Duncan's rookie year. Kobe averaged 15 PPG as a 19 yr old for the Lakers.

Impressive but they caught the Rockets on the downside of their careers and the Spurs/Lakers before they hit their primes.

He just tries to do everything in his power to make the Bulls (Jordan) look as good as possible.

AntiG
08-20-2019, 02:24 PM
I don't think you can call any of those teams peak. Drexler, Hakeem and Barkley were 35, 35 and 34 and were injured much of the year. It was literally Duncan's rookie year. Kobe averaged 15 PPG as a 19 yr old for the Lakers.

Impressive but they caught the Rockets on the downside of their careers and the Spurs/Lakers before they hit their primes.

Yeah Drexler's and Barkley's peaks were during the late 80s through mid 90s; Hakeen during the early to mid 90s. If they were really together in their peaks (all 3 on one team during the early to mid 90s), the Bulls probably would have only had 2 or 3 rings.

wallerstein
08-22-2019, 04:12 PM
I agree. LeBron and Curry have to face a much more substantial opposition.

ChiSox219
08-23-2019, 09:44 PM
Less than 6 months after breaking his foot Jordan hung 43.7ppg on .584 TS% in the playoffs against the Celtics (9th highest SRS ever).