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View Full Version : When Kawhi wins his 3rd title and finals mvp in 2020 with Clips, where you rank him?



LaVar Ball
07-23-2019, 11:50 PM
I say Top 10 all time.


Thoughts.

warfelg
07-24-2019, 07:42 AM
To me he would solidify my opinion of best player in the NBA. Right now I feel like he's got a sweaty 3 finger grasp of it.

As for all time.....whew. Top 20 lock?

Tg11
07-24-2019, 11:15 AM
Top 20 all time lock if he wins his 3rd ring...notice if he wins with the Clippers that will be 3 rings with 3 different teams. To me that would solidify him as the best player in the whole NBA bar none.

WaDe03
07-24-2019, 11:32 AM
MJ
LeBron
Kawhi

3rd best player ever.

Tg11
07-24-2019, 11:42 AM
MJ
LeBron
Kawhi

3rd best player ever.

That would be fair if he wins both Finals MVP and his 3rd title but if he then went on to win his 4th ring after that back to back then he would be top 5 all time in my book

THE MTL
07-24-2019, 03:52 PM
All of the Top 10 alltime greats have in common is championships. You cant just boost Kwahi cause he won 3 with different teams. You have guys like Bird, Magic, Shaq, Duncan who all won 3 or more. Kwahi needs win another ring as well as to do more individually, he only has 3 allstar appearances and 3 All-NBA selections. I would say Top 20 without the 10+ AllNBA/Allstar appearances that the Top 10 greats all have in common

valade16
07-24-2019, 04:02 PM
I think if Kawhi were to win his 3rd title next season he'll be in that rarefied air of greats to where nothing short of championships will be able to boost his ranking. Guys like LeBron, KD, Curry, Harden, etc. The only thing moving them higher is titles at this point.

tredigs
07-24-2019, 04:04 PM
MJ
LeBron
Kawhi

3rd best player ever.

Lmfao.

Kawhi is so hilariously overrated right now man.

I don't think there's even a clear case for him as the NBA's best player. Talking about a never MVP here.

tredigs
07-24-2019, 04:10 PM
I think if Kawhi were to win his 3rd title next season he'll be in that rarefied air of greats to where nothing short of championships will be able to boost his ranking. Guys like LeBron, KD, Curry, Harden, etc. The only thing moving them higher is titles at this point.

How about an MVP or even 5 All NBA 1st Teams? His resume' is extremely limited. He is not close to the air some are discussing here.

If that lucky shot against Philly bounces out and they lose in OT nobody is discussing him as the best player in the world, let alone some of the nonsense we are seeing in threads like these. He wasn't even particularly impressive in the Finals.

WaDe03
07-24-2019, 04:11 PM
Lmfao.

Kawhi is so hilariously overrated right now man.

I don't think there's even a clear case for him as the NBA's best player. Talking about a never MVP here.

I wasnt being serious lol

Id say hes top 3 for sure right now with an engaged LeBron and healthy KD probably in front. If he wins this year Ill have him as the best though, regular season MVP or not

WaDe03
07-24-2019, 04:13 PM
How about an MVP or even 5 All NBA 1st Teams? His resume' is extremely limited. He is not close to the air some are discussing here.

If that lucky shot against Philly bounces out and they lose in OT nobody is discussing him as the best player in the world, let alone some of the nonsense we are seeing in threads like these. He wasn't even particularly impressive in the Finals.

Exactly! People were saying he was top 20 or top 15 ever after that finals win. Hes a hell of a player but his finals performance was nothing spectacular really and his 2014 finals MVP may be one of the weakest weve seen, at least in the last 20-30 years.

valade16
07-24-2019, 04:15 PM
How about an MVP or even 5 All NBA 1st Teams? His resume' is extremely limited. He is not close to the air some are discussing here.

If that lucky shot against Philly bounces out and they lose in OT nobody is discussing him as the best player in the world, let alone some of the nonsense we are seeing in threads like these. He wasn't even particularly impressive in the Finals.

The numbers speak for themselves. His advanced numbers the last 3 postseasons put him up there amongst the best all-time. He is already a 2x DPOY, a 2x Finals MVP and a 2x Champion. If he were to win a 3rd one, chances are he makes an All-NBA team while doing it (if not an MVP possibly), maybe a DPOY, etc.

That's 3 titles before the age of 30 and as many championships as Steph. You seem to be judging his resume right now, but if he does what he did this year next year, he will shoot up the rankings. Or put another way, how many people actually in the NBA at the moment would have a better all-time resume? The only 3 I can see are LeBron, Steph and KD. Maybe I'm missing someone but that's not very many.

Quinnsanity
07-24-2019, 04:16 PM
I've said it before and I'll say it again. I think there's a really clear 14. Then there are three modern players after them fighting for positioning amongst each other and potentially that group.

Personally, here's my list:

LeBron
MJ
Kareem
Russell
Wilt
Bird
Duncan
Hakeem
Shaq
Magic
Jerry West
Oscar
Kobe
Moses

And then you have the following three players in slots 15-17. I think any of them could vault as high as the top five, but they're also competing with each other specifically. Right now, this is how I'd order them:

Curry
Durant
Kawhi

But they are VERY close, and I expect to reevaluate that grouping every year from now until the end of their careers. If Kawhi wins another title and Finals MVP this year, he probably vaults both of them. If Curry wins another regular-season MVP and drags this Warriors team on a meaningful playoff run, that means a lot to me. If Durant manages to become the first player to really truly overcome a torn Achilles, then that will mean a lot to me as well. But that's where I'd have them now.

IKnowHoops
07-24-2019, 04:42 PM
MJ
LeBron
Kawhi

3rd best player ever.

KL will never be better than Shaq or Kareem. Hed have to surpass Shaq in statistical dominance before he could have an argument and that aint happening.

IKnowHoops
07-24-2019, 04:43 PM
I wasnt being serious lol

Id say hes top 3 for sure right now with an engaged LeBron and healthy KD probably in front. If he wins this year Ill have him as the best though, regular season MVP or not

Ok

tredigs
07-24-2019, 05:09 PM
I've said it before and I'll say it again. I think there's a really clear 14. Then there are three modern players after them fighting for positioning amongst each other and potentially that group.

Personally, here's my list:

LeBron
MJ
Kareem
Russell
Wilt
Bird
Duncan
Hakeem
Shaq
Magic
Jerry West
Oscar
Kobe
Moses

And then you have the following three players in slots 15-17. I think any of them could vault as high as the top five, but they're also competing with each other specifically. Right now, this is how I'd order them:

Curry
Durant
Kawhi

But they are VERY close, and I expect to reevaluate that grouping every year from now until the end of their careers. If Kawhi wins another title and Finals MVP this year, he probably vaults both of them. If Curry wins another regular-season MVP and drags this Warriors team on a meaningful playoff run, that means a lot to me. If Durant manages to become the first player to really truly overcome a torn Achilles, then that will mean a lot to me as well. But that's where I'd have them now.

You for real have Kawhi top 17 ALL Time? Over Kevin Garnett, D Wade, Dr. J, Karl Malone, Charles Barkley, etc etc. This is what I'm talking about here.

He's a very good player, but pump the ****ing breaks people. He was brought in with warm blankets to the best organization in all of sports and helped put them back over the top once again in San Antonio. Earning Finals MVP in an easy win over the dismantling Heat on sub 20 ppg with no playmaking ability. At that point his lockdown D carried more weight (that consistently great D is long gone however). It was very much a team win. Duncan was still their clear leader/best player and All NBA 1st Team that year. It was like the Tony Parker or Iguodala Finals MVP. After not making it back to another Finals as the team's best player and throwing away a season, he then joined a 60 win Raptors team in the conference that finally lost Lebron and with some serious light shining from the bball Gods helped put them over the top (in the double OT win against the Bucks to fade going down 3-0, the lucky bounce against Philly in Game 7, and in playing a Finals Team that was at about 50% strength). It was great, but let's not act like this was some legendary carrying of a downtrodden franchise here. They crushed without him and he was simply the All NBA caliber player they needed to squeak them over the top in the newly opened conference. They were essentially gifted the Finals thereafter (Kawhi not taking over by any means).

Again, we are talking about a 0X MVP here who has played in nothing but fantastic organizations that completely catered to his constant load management issues (and carried on just fine without him). He is certainly a guy you want on your playoff roster (especially well rested throughout the year), but give me a ****ing break with the top 20 All Time nonsense.

I would also love to see him able to show up at the very top of the RPM/PIPM ladders at least a couple times (as is he has peaked at 5th).

People are extremely clouded by recency bias with Kawhi. And frankly when you consider his first Finals MVP was against an imploding Heat team with the ghost of D Wade (Kawhi not even being his teams best player), and the second against a team with more significant injuries than any Finals team in history (with Kawhi not being some dominant presence on the floor), we can take those with a grain of salt as well. Specifically as his actual resume' has absolutely ZERO place in a top 20 debate.

/rant.

smith&wesson
07-24-2019, 05:43 PM
Lets see if the Clippers make the finals first... the west is grimey

WaDe03
07-24-2019, 06:54 PM
Ok

Yea

WaDe03
07-24-2019, 06:58 PM
People hype up Kawhi saying he ended 2 dynasties in Miami and golden state. Id argue injuries ended it more than anything. Raptors dont beat a full strength warriors and Kawhi won finals mvp in 2014 averaging just 18-6 while getting absolutely cooked by LeBron, it wasnt impressive at all.

I sound like a hater lol I like Kawhi a lot but people are jumping the gun and overhyping some of the things hes done.

Tg11
07-24-2019, 09:02 PM
Kawhi if he wins his 3rd ring he will have as many rings as LeBron so he's getting there in the upper echelon of greats

DanG
07-25-2019, 04:34 AM
Top 20-25.

If you look at his two championships, this one he could win with the Clippers would be the most impressive.

In San Antonio, he was a role player, and wasn't necessarily the best player on the team.

In Toronto, he was the clear cut best player, but did get a lot of help with injuries. (not taking anything away from his championship, but it's a fact).

For the Clippers, if he wins a championship, and that's a big if, he would be the best player on the team, playing in a tougher conference, and leading a team that has never won to a championship.

And at the end of the day, it's not all about the rings. He has 0 MVPs, is only a 3x all-star. He needs at least 5-6 years of playing at this level to have a top 10 career.

DanG
07-25-2019, 04:44 AM
You for real have Kawhi top 17 ALL Time? Over Kevin Garnett, D Wade, Dr. J, Karl Malone, Charles Barkley, etc etc. This is what I'm talking about here.

He's a very good player, but pump the ****ing breaks people. He was brought in with warm blankets to the best organization in all of sports and helped put them back over the top once again in San Antonio. Earning Finals MVP in an easy win over the dismantling Heat on sub 20 ppg with no playmaking ability. At that point his lockdown D carried more weight (that consistently great D is long gone however). It was very much a team win. Duncan was still their clear leader/best player and All NBA 1st Team that year. It was like the Tony Parker or Iguodala Finals MVP. After not making it back to another Finals as the team's best player and throwing away a season, he then joined a 60 win Raptors team in the conference that finally lost Lebron and with some serious light shining from the bball Gods helped put them over the top (in the double OT win against the Bucks to fade going down 3-0, the lucky bounce against Philly in Game 7, and in playing a Finals Team that was at about 50% strength). It was great, but let's not act like this was some legendary carrying of a downtrodden franchise here. They crushed without him and he was simply the All NBA caliber player they needed to squeak them over the top in the newly opened conference. They were essentially gifted the Finals thereafter (Kawhi not taking over by any means).

Again, we are talking about a 0X MVP here who has played in nothing but fantastic organizations that completely catered to his constant load management issues (and carried on just fine without him). He is certainly a guy you want on your playoff roster (especially well rested throughout the year), but give me a ****ing break with the top 20 All Time nonsense.

I would also love to see him able to show up at the very top of the RPM/PIPM ladders at least a couple times (as is he has peaked at 5th).

People are extremely clouded by recency bias with Kawhi. And frankly when you consider his first Finals MVP was against an imploding Heat team with the ghost of D Wade (Kawhi not even being his teams best player), and the second against a team with more significant injuries than any Finals team in history (with Kawhi not being some dominant presence on the floor), we can take those with a grain of salt as well. Specifically as his actual resume' has absolutely ZERO place in a top 20 debate.

/rant.

This.

If you think about it, Sixers were a bucket away from eliminating Kawhi in the 2nd round.

If the Raptors don't get out of that matchup, no one would be talking about Kawhi as the best player, let alone a top 20 player all-time. Still would be the same player though...

Tg11
07-25-2019, 05:24 AM
Watch him win MVP then everyone will be eating crow

tredigs
07-25-2019, 03:18 PM
Watch him win MVP then everyone will be eating crow
I mean I like the guy honestly.

Edit: this comment didn't complete for some reason. The ending was along the lines of, "would love to see it". As is everything I wrote holds true. He has absolutely zero case among a top 20 debate. It's a joke to say otherwise.

Chronz
07-25-2019, 03:29 PM
You for real have Kawhi top 17 ALL Time? Over Kevin Garnett, D Wade, Dr. J, Karl Malone, Charles Barkley, etc etc. This is what I'm talking about here.

He's a very good player, but pump the ****ing breaks people. He was brought in with warm blankets to the best organization in all of sports and helped put them back over the top once again in San Antonio. Earning Finals MVP in an easy win over the dismantling Heat on sub 20 ppg with no playmaking ability. At that point his lockdown D carried more weight (that consistently great D is long gone however). It was very much a team win. Duncan was still their clear leader/best player and All NBA 1st Team that year. It was like the Tony Parker or Iguodala Finals MVP. After not making it back to another Finals as the team's best player and throwing away a season, he then joined a 60 win Raptors team in the conference that finally lost Lebron and with some serious light shining from the bball Gods helped put them over the top (in the double OT win against the Bucks to fade going down 3-0, the lucky bounce against Philly in Game 7, and in playing a Finals Team that was at about 50% strength). It was great, but let's not act like this was some legendary carrying of a downtrodden franchise here. They crushed without him and he was simply the All NBA caliber player they needed to squeak them over the top in the newly opened conference. They were essentially gifted the Finals thereafter (Kawhi not taking over by any means).

Again, we are talking about a 0X MVP here who has played in nothing but fantastic organizations that completely catered to his constant load management issues (and carried on just fine without him). He is certainly a guy you want on your playoff roster (especially well rested throughout the year), but give me a ****ing break with the top 20 All Time nonsense.

I would also love to see him able to show up at the very top of the RPM/PIPM ladders at least a couple times (as is he has peaked at 5th).

People are extremely clouded by recency bias with Kawhi. And frankly when you consider his first Finals MVP was against an imploding Heat team with the ghost of D Wade (Kawhi not even being his teams best player), and the second against a team with more significant injuries than any Finals team in history (with Kawhi not being some dominant presence on the floor), we can take those with a grain of salt as well. Specifically as his actual resume' has absolutely ZERO place in a top 20 debate.

/rant.

where do you rank bill walton?

WaDe03
07-25-2019, 04:38 PM
Watch him win MVP then everyone will be eating crow

I dont think anyone said he wont or cant, he just hasnt.

Iron24th
07-25-2019, 04:56 PM
Let's not forget that kawhi got a lot of help from the basketball gods in the Finals against a depleted GS team missing his 1st and 3rd best player, I still don't get why he gets a pass but whatever, that being said he's something else on both ends of the court but yeah before we call him an all time great let's see how he does in LAC.

blams
07-25-2019, 05:29 PM
Kawhi if he wins his 3rd ring he will have as many rings as LeBron so he's getting there in the upper echelon of greatsHow many regular season MVP's does he have?

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lakers squad
07-25-2019, 05:56 PM
I say Top 10 all time.


Thoughts.

If LeBron is still half the player he was, Kawhi want win the chip! But the Lakers and the Bucks or the best two teams in the NBA this year! JMO! P.S. watch out for the Jazz, I love what their team did, they will be extremely improved, I would not be surprised if they came out of the west, the Nuggets will be better as well. This will be one hell of a season!

goingfor28
07-25-2019, 06:16 PM
All of the Top 10 alltime greats have in common is championships. You cant just boost Kwahi cause he won 3 with different teams. You have guys like Bird, Magic, Shaq, Duncan who all won 3 or more. Kwahi needs win another ring as well as to do more individually, he only has 3 allstar appearances and 3 All-NBA selections. I would say Top 20 without the 10+ AllNBA/Allstar appearances that the Top 10 greats all have in commonGood ol Kwahi!

tredigs
07-25-2019, 09:53 PM
where do you rank bill walton?

Below the top 25. I don't have a ranking list off the top of my head that low.

Peak would be higher of course as he CARRIED a team to a title. Something Kawhi has obviously never done (replace a middling All Star on a 60 win team with an All NBA player and you're a heavy contender obviously) along with his super limited prime production in comparison to the greats. And the Spurs team he was a top 60 player with All NBA 1st Team Duncan + Manu and TP. He never made it to the promised land without them again.

tredigs
07-26-2019, 12:07 AM
Very little contention to my Kawhi comments and that is not surprising. Homeboy may be the most overrated player in history (to my knowledge) right now.

JAZZNC
07-26-2019, 12:28 AM
He's definitely being overrated by some. I mean you just can't put him top 10 or 20 over guys that were beasts and carried teams for a decade or more. I mean would you automatically put Malone top 10 if he got a ring playing a Bulls team where MJ played for 2 quarters and Rodman was out most of the series??

There are too many people who have WAY more accolades than Kawhi for a couple rings to jump over them. He is a 3 time All-Star. Maybe I'm being a homer but in now way should he be ranked ahead of Malone for example. 14 time All-Star, 14 time All NBA team, 4 time All-NBA Defensive team, 2 time MVP. But RANGS bro!!

tredigs
07-26-2019, 12:40 AM
He's definitely being overrated by some. I mean you just can't put him top 10 or 20 over guys that were beasts and carried teams for a decade or more. I mean would you automatically put Malone top 10 if he got a ring playing a Bulls team where MJ played for 2 quarters and Rodman was out most of the series??

There are too many people who have WAY more accolades than Kawhi for a couple rings to jump over them. He is a 3 time All-Star. Maybe I'm being a homer but in now way should he be ranked ahead of Malone for example. 14 time All-Star, 14 time All NBA team, 4 time All-NBA Defensive team, 2 time MVP. But RANGS bro!!

Lmfao no you're not being a homer. You're God damn delusional and have no case to stand on if you put Kawhi Leonard over Malone. But I welcome all arguments. Starting with you Quin? -->

lakers squad
07-26-2019, 03:03 AM
Watch him win MVP then everyone will be eating crow

He want win the MVP, I just don't see it happening, but ive been seeing people say he should be put in the GOAT conversation, also people saying he's a top 5 or 10 all time now. People or completely overrating him! I don't even have him in my top 20 all time greats yet! He's a top 50 as of now, sorry guy's, but he still has a long ways to go to be put up top with my all time greats! Just seems like some people have giving him more credit than he should have gotten from their playoff run, it was a nice run, but come on now, not to the point were he should be considered a top 5 or 10 all time great because of it!

WaDe03
07-26-2019, 09:00 AM
Very little contention to my Kawhi comments and that is not surprising. Homeboy may be the most overrated player in history (to my knowledge) right now.

Iverson says hello

valade16
07-26-2019, 09:34 AM
Below the top 25. I don't have a ranking list off the top of my head that low.

Peak would be higher of course as he CARRIED a team to a title. Something Kawhi has obviously never done (replace a middling All Star on a 60 win team with an All NBA player and you're a heavy contender obviously) along with his super limited prime production in comparison to the greats. And the Spurs team he was a top 60 player with All NBA 1st Team Duncan + Manu and TP. He never made it to the promised land without them again.

Other than this past season when he... ya know, won the Title.

his advanced numbers the last 3 postseasons he's played have been extraordinary. In terms of peak, how many players do you actually think are better than him at his best?

Jamiecballer
07-26-2019, 10:55 AM
Hes on a path to be top 5 all-time but I'm not sure where to put him right now.

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Jamiecballer
07-26-2019, 11:02 AM
Anybody but me see the hilarious irony of Tre's take on Kawhi. No? Ok then. Imagine a guy who has been so good but has never proven excellent results or won anything of significance without falling into extremely favorable circumstances first.

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tredigs
07-26-2019, 11:13 AM
Anybody but me see the hilarious irony of Tre's take on Kawhi. No? Ok then. Imagine a guy who has been so good but has never proven excellent results or won anything of significance without falling into extremely favorable circumstances first.

Sent from my SM-A520W using Tapatalk

Lol really? In Curry's case the system was built around his arrival (once they got rid of Monta) and he was a b2b MVP/first ever unanimous MVP and has been atop the RPM/PIPM ladders for some time. It was a steady climb for Golden State from bottom dwellers to champs (nobody pretends that he did not have plenty of help, every dynasty does). Kawhi joined a 60 win team/off-on dynasty in San Antonio and another 60 win team in Toronto. That is the same to you? :laugh:

valade16
07-26-2019, 11:29 AM
Lol really? In Curry's case the system was built around his arrival (once they got rid of Monta) and he was a b2b MVP/first ever unanimous MVP and has been atop the RPM/PIPM ladders for some time. It was a steady climb for Golden State from bottom dwellers to champs (nobody pretends that he did not have plenty of help, every dynasty does). Kawhi joined a 60 win team/off-on dynasty in San Antonio and another 60 win team in Toronto. That is the same to you? :laugh:

I mean, what the joined is pretty irrelevant compared to what they were right? Are you somehow suggesting that Klay and Dray were not All-NBA caliber players because Curry joined a down on their luck Franchise? Heck, even with old man Duncan and crew, I don't think one could say that Kawhi has ever played with teams as talented as what Curry has played with.

tredigs
07-26-2019, 11:42 AM
I mean, what the joined is pretty irrelevant compared to what they were right? Are you somehow suggesting that Klay and Dray were not All-NBA caliber players because Curry joined a down on their luck Franchise? Heck, even with old man Duncan and crew, I don't think one could say that Kawhi has ever played with teams as talented as what Curry has played with.

It's very relevant as Kawhi joined the culture and he was not close to a top player in the league when they won (Duncan and TP were incumbent All NBA at the time). In Golden State it was built around Curry.

valade16
07-26-2019, 11:48 AM
It's very relevant as Kawhi joined the culture and he was not close to a top player in the league when they won (Duncan and TP were incumbent All NBA at the time). In Golden State it was built around Curry.

Yes, Kawhi joined a franchise with a history of better decisions. But it's not like the current Warriors GM is somehow worse than he is because the Franchise he joined sucked before he arrived. I'd say Curry has been in one of the Top 3-5 best organizations in the league from an owner, GM, and coaching standpoint.

tredigs
07-26-2019, 12:00 PM
Yes, Kawhi joined a franchise with a history of better decisions. But it's not like the current Warriors GM is somehow worse than he is because the Franchise he joined sucked before he arrived. I'd say Curry has been in one of the Top 3-5 best organizations in the league from an owner, GM, and coaching standpoint.

It was mutually beneficial for sure. The underlying point here is that when Kawhi won in San Antonio (the only time they won with him) he was 2 years away from being an All Star and absolutely nothing was built around him. When GS took it down the first time with Curry he was the league MVP (and made an encore as unanimous league MVP for good measure) with the league's best offense built completely around him. 100% different circumstances.

Jamiecballer
07-26-2019, 01:00 PM
Lol really? In Curry's case the system was built around his arrival (once they got rid of Monta) and he was a b2b MVP/first ever unanimous MVP and has been atop the RPM/PIPM ladders for some time. It was a steady climb for Golden State from bottom dwellers to champs (nobody pretends that he did not have plenty of help, every dynasty does). Kawhi joined a 60 win team/off-on dynasty in San Antonio and another 60 win team in Toronto. That is the same to you? :laugh:

no, try and stick to what i said. curry's success has all come alongside great players and a great organization. he has never had to carry anything. i will give you Curry has been an instrumental part of the culture change, if that's what you feel, but i doesn't change the fact that the incredible talent was there at the first real hint of success. there is no other player in the NBA that your criticism of Kawhi applies to more than your own boy.

tredigs
07-26-2019, 01:07 PM
no, try and stick to what i said. curry's success has all come alongside great players and a great organization. he has never had to carry anything. i will give you Curry has been an instrumental part of the culture change, if that's what you feel, but i doesn't change the fact that the incredible talent was there at the first real hint of success. there is no other player in the NBA that your criticism of Kawhi applies to more than your own boy.

Championships almost exclusively come with great players in great organizations. There was nothing legendary about 1x All Star Klay Thompson and the young/budding non All Star Draymond at the time of their first title. Just a really well built team centered around a legendary talent. The laughable part here is that you are insinuating that Kawhi and Curry were in similar situations when they won in San Antonio and at first in Golden State respectively. "Oh the irony" lol. It's just an ignorant comment. Kawhi was an elite role player. Curry was the league MVP.

valade16
07-26-2019, 01:13 PM
It was mutually beneficial for sure. The underlying point here is that when Kawhi won in San Antonio (the only time they won with him) he was 2 years away from being an All Star and absolutely nothing was built around him. When GS took it down the first time with Curry he was the league MVP (and made an encore as unanimous league MVP for good measure) with the league's best offense built completely around him. 100% different circumstances.

I agree as it pertains to their first championships.

valade16
07-26-2019, 01:19 PM
Championships almost exclusively come with great players in great organizations. There was nothing legendary about 1x All Star Klay Thompson and the young/budding non All Star Draymond at the time of their first title. Just a really well built team centered around a legendary talent. The laughable part here is that you are insinuating that Kawhi and Curry were in similar situations when they won in San Antonio and at first in Golden State respectively. "Oh the irony" lol. It's just an ignorant comment. Kawhi was an elite role player. Curry was the league MVP.

Klay Thompson made the All-NBA 3rd Team their first Championship and Draymond Green was 1st Team All-Defense who finished second in DPOY voting. The year they won their first title, people knew they were All caliber players.

For perspective, both of them had more accolades than Scottie Pippen did the year the Bulls won their first title (1 AS game, 1 All-D 2nd tm). Are you trying to say that Scottie Pippen wasn't a star level secondary player to MJ?

tredigs
07-26-2019, 01:28 PM
Klay Thompson made the All-NBA 3rd Team their first Championship and Draymond Green was 1st Team All-Defense who finished second in DPOY voting. The year they won their first title, people knew they were All caliber players.

For perspective, both of them had more accolades than Scottie Pippen did the year the Bulls won their first title (1 AS game, 1 All-D 2nd tm). Are you trying to say that Scottie Pippen wasn't a star level secondary player to MJ?

They also had Iguodala. I'm not going to sit here and talk down on the Warriors cast, it was great, I'm just saying it wasn't some historic situation like after Draymond/Klay reached their prime and they added KD. Pippen in 90 was already easily better than anyone the Warriors had at that point though and Grant/Draymond were very similar comps. But back to the point, Kawhi was one of these role players. Curry was the MJ.

valade16
07-26-2019, 01:36 PM
They also had Iguodala. I'm not going to sit here and talk down on the Warriors cast, it was great, I'm just saying it wasn't some historic situation like after Draymond/Klay reached their prime and they added KD. Pippen in 90 was already easily better than anyone the Warriors had at that point though and Grant/Draymond were very similar comps. But back to the point, Kawhi was one of these role players. Curry was the MJ.

People talked about them as a historic situation literally the very next season when they won 73 games. There was even a thread here on whether they were the best team ever that year. Everybody knew even during their first run that Klay and Dray were very good players, certainly more than role players. Heck, you were in here arguing non-stop about how Dray deserved DPOY over Kawhi.

tredigs
07-26-2019, 01:53 PM
People talked about them as a historic situation literally the very next season when they won 73 games. There was even a thread here on whether they were the best team ever that year. Everybody knew even during their first run that Klay and Dray were very good players, certainly more than role players. Heck, you were in here arguing non-stop about how Dray deserved DPOY over Kawhi.

I'm not arguing against them being more than just role players? But they were certainly not a 60 win contender without Steph. He was what they were built around. The opposite was the case for Kawhi. Clear enough my dude? Sort of sick of running in circles with this.

valade16
07-26-2019, 02:01 PM
I'm not arguing against them being more than just role players? But they were certainly not a 60 win contender without Steph. He was what they were built around. The opposite was the case for Kawhi. Clear enough my dude? Sort of sick of running in circles with this.

Of course they weren't a 60 win contender without Steph. Is your point the Spurs were a Championship team without Kawhi? If so, you couldn't be more wrong. 2014 was their first time winning the title in 7 years. 2013 was their first year making the Finals in 6. They weren't winning a title without him by that point.

I get your point that Steph was his team's best player and the fulcrum of their offense and Kawhi wasn't on the Spurs. But Kawhi was the best player on the Raptors. We can argue in circles about what being a contender means but everyone agreed Toronto wasn't a good enough team to win a title before Kawhi got there. And even using the record from the season before is unfair because they had DeRozan, an All-NBA player in his place. If you replaced Steph with DeRozan in 2015 they probably don't win the title, but they don't completely fall apart either.

Jamiecballer
07-26-2019, 02:18 PM
Championships almost exclusively come with great players in great organizations. There was nothing legendary about 1x All Star Klay Thompson and the young/budding non All Star Draymond at the time of their first title. Just a really well built team centered around a legendary talent. The laughable part here is that you are insinuating that Kawhi and Curry were in similar situations when they won in San Antonio and at first in Golden State respectively. "Oh the irony" lol. It's just an ignorant comment. Kawhi was an elite role player. Curry was the league MVP.You dont respond to what people say, there is zero point in discussion. If you'd ever like to refute what is said I will be happy to continue the conversation.

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tredigs
07-26-2019, 02:24 PM
Of course they weren't a 60 win contender without Steph. Is your point the Spurs were a Championship team without Kawhi? If so, you couldn't be more wrong. 2014 was their first time winning the title in 7 years. 2013 was their first year making the Finals in 6. They weren't winning a title without him by that point.

I get your point that Steph was his team's best player and the fulcrum of their offense and Kawhi wasn't on the Spurs. But Kawhi was the best player on the Raptors. We can argue in circles about what being a contender means but everyone agreed Toronto wasn't a good enough team to win a title before Kawhi got there. And even using the record from the season before is unfair because they had DeRozan, an All-NBA player in his place. If you replaced Steph with DeRozan in 2015 they probably don't win the title, but they don't completely fall apart either.

I've said enough about the Spurs/Warriors. Like I already said ealrier, Kawhi was the elite role player who helped put them back over the top. But that machine was not about him.

Concerning the Raps I obviously give Kawhi far more credit as he was a bona fide superstar and exactly what that team needed to compete with the newly opened Eastern Conference (I say that not just because Lebron left, as I don't think that Cavs team would have come out of the East). Derozan may have been "All NBA" technically, but he was not a top 15 talent. And he was outright exposed every single playoffs. Bradley Beal has no All NBA selections but I would take his production in a split second over Derozan. You can add 10+ other wings to that list as well. Now consider that they also bolstered their defense/depth/shooting by bringing along Danny Green + replacing JV with Marc Gasol and it's no secret that this was a fantastic team. That's before considering the massive leaps from the MIP Paskal Siakim. They went 17-5 without him last year (that's a 64 win pace... better than their record with him). They were a fantastic team. He was the All NBA talent they needed to help put them over the top (again, ever so slightly and they certainly don't win that conference even 7 times out of 10 if it is run back). I maintain the winning/recency bias has Kawhi overrated right now. Clearly historically and imo currently as well. But that's enough off season debate for me on this one. We will see how things go in his next destination (granted, another terrific situation for him where I am not convinced he is a shoe in to be their clear best player).

Chronz
07-26-2019, 03:25 PM
They also had Iguodala. I'm not going to sit here and talk down on the Warriors cast, it was great, I'm just saying it wasn't some historic situation like after Draymond/Klay reached their prime and they added KD. Pippen in 90 was already easily better than anyone the Warriors had at that point though and Grant/Draymond were very similar comps. But back to the point, Kawhi was one of these role players. Curry was the MJ.

Bruh. Ur team beat all the injured squads that year. We all saw what bron did to yall when crewed up. Its not that different from kawhis chip

Chronz
07-26-2019, 03:27 PM
Below the top 25. I don't have a ranking list off the top of my head that low.

Peak would be higher of course as he CARRIED a team to a title. Something Kawhi has obviously never done (replace a middling All Star on a 60 win team with an All NBA player and you're a heavy contender obviously) along with his super limited prime production in comparison to the greats. And the Spurs team he was a top 60 player with All NBA 1st Team Duncan + Manu and TP. He never made it to the promised land without them again.
You guys needed a middling as. Tdot needed every inch of kawhi. Get gurthd

tredigs
07-26-2019, 03:31 PM
Bruh. Ur team beat all the injured squads that year. We all saw what bron did to yall when crewed up. Its not that different from kawhis chip
Lmao please. They were favorites going into the playoffs and no series went 7. The difference is that one guy was a #1/league MVP/their best player by a country mile and the other was a fantastic role player. It's drastically different. Let's also ignore that it took multiple injuries and a suspension for the "all crewed up" Cavs to escape in the last minute of game 7.

tredigs
07-26-2019, 03:58 PM
You guys needed a middling as. Tdot needed every inch of kawhi. Get gurthd

You're confusing this with the KD years now. I agree we did not need him and a Kris Middleton type was enough to replace Barnes and stay on top (and they smashed most teams accordingly... though the Rockets were the Warriors toughest test the past 2 years and the KD-less team proved they could beat them at full strength in Game 5 and 6 last year). Until everyone got hurt once that is (not the 2016 time). If you're saying that a middling All Star takes the 2015 or 2016 team to the promised land instead of Curry then I have to assume you're just trolling.

Chronz
07-26-2019, 04:06 PM
Lmao please. They were favorites going into the playoffs and no series went 7. The difference is that one guy was a #1/league MVP/their best player by a country mile and the other was a fantastic role player. It's drastically different. Let's also ignore that it took multiple injuries and a suspension for the "all crewed up" Cavs to escape in the last minute of game 7.

I need proof but only outta curiosity cuz predictions are truly irrelevant in the face of what actually happened. No team was healthy in your series including the last team standing with a GOAT candidate to boot. Multiple injuries?LOL you mean like the year before when bums took you to 6 games? oh no, you didnt suffer those kind of injuries, you had a technical prone goof and a diminutive leader dealing with half the injuries Kyrie did a year prior. Bruh, I get that you think Curry's lone title (yes, really) is more significant than any of Kawhi's but there is a debate here. Curry hasn't exactly impressed and Kawhi has always elevated his play come the loffs.

Chronz
07-26-2019, 04:07 PM
You're confusing this with the KD years now. I agree we did not need him and a Kris Middleton type was enough to replace Barnes and stay on top (and they smashed most teams accordingly... though the Rockets were the Warriors toughest test the past 2 years and the KD-less team proved they could beat them at full strength in Game 5 and 6 last year). Until everyone got hurt once that is (not the 2016 time). If you're saying that a middling All Star takes the 2015 or 2016 team to the promised land instead of Curry then I have to assume you're just trolling.

What middling all star does what kawhi just did. certainly not middleton. I honestly value Kawhis title above Currys, injuries influenced both events only Kawhi has the build to crush on both ends.

tredigs
07-26-2019, 04:16 PM
What middling all star does what kawhi just did. certainly not middleton. I honestly value Kawhis title above Currys, injuries influenced both events only Kawhi has the build to crush on both ends.

You can debate that I suppose, and I've already said I hold Kawhi's second title to a much higher degree (I never said a middling AS could take them over the top. In fact if you read I said they needed a bona fide superstar level player to do so). That said, my points on that team stand. They were proven to be fantastic without him last year (forget them with Derozan as a 60 win team the prior year). It's also worth noting that their title was 100% due to injury as far as the Finals are concerned. The Warriors even without KD beat them as well if the rest don't get hurt, but I still give them credit for making it there. It's a battle of attrition as much as skill. Teams can begin to break after a half decade straight of Finals runs.

Heediot
07-26-2019, 04:25 PM
The Warriors even without KD beat them as well if the rest don't get hurt, but I still give them credit for making it there. It's a battle of attrition as much as skill. Teams can begin to break after a half decade straight of Finals runs.

I don't think so. They might have won game 6. I don't think They win game 7 in Toronto. Toronto was shown to be the superior team for the most part minus DURANT imo.

Leonard and the raps dod get lucky with the kd injury.

tredigs
07-26-2019, 04:45 PM
I need proof but only outta curiosity cuz predictions are truly irrelevant in the face of what actually happened. No team was healthy in your series including the last team standing with a GOAT candidate to boot. Multiple injuries?LOL you mean like the year before when bums took you to 6 games? oh no, you didnt suffer those kind of injuries, you had a technical prone goof and a diminutive leader dealing with half the injuries Kyrie did a year prior. Bruh, I get that you think Curry's lone title (yes, really) is more significant than any of Kawhi's but there is a debate here. Curry hasn't exactly impressed and Kawhi has always elevated his play come the loffs.

Proof they were favorites going into the playoffs as the 67 win NBA 1 seed? Just Google it. As far as "bums taking them to 6", it happens. Most teams don't exactly run through the playoffs sweeping everyone. Hell even the bum *** Clippers took the Curry/KD Warriors to 6 this year. As far as Curry not being impressive in the playoffs, well that's a joke. Top 10 in Playoffs PPG all time with the highest TS% of any player over 20 PPG in the playoffs. They have always gone as he goes. If he does struggle, damn good chance they are not winning the series. I do love that you include Kawhi's multiple titles (role player or not) and attempt to dismiss Currys (who was arguably the most impactful player in the league the past 5 years. But u get thats your shtick). You will see again this year as they outperform these 7 seed expectations. Hoping for a rematch with LAC as the underdog this time around.

tredigs
07-26-2019, 04:46 PM
I don't think so. They might have won game 6. I don't think They win game 7 in Toronto. Toronto was shown to be the superior team for the most part minus DURANT imo.

Leonard and the raps dod get lucky with the kd injury.

Debatable. There were a handful of injuries outside of KD and Klay. I would trust the Warriors there personally.

Heediot
07-26-2019, 05:11 PM
Debatable. There were a handful of injuries outside of KD and Klay. I would trust the Warriors there personally.

For sure.

I felt like Raps should of closed them in 5 instead of the late meltdown with the timeout and Lowry.

GS looked like they would extend it to 7 before the Klay injury.

WaDe03
07-27-2019, 11:27 AM
Wtf is going on in here?

Cracka2HI!
07-27-2019, 02:09 PM
Kawhi definitely has a chance to go down as a top 5 all-time NBA player with his move to the Clippers. I don't think a move to the Lakers would have given him that chance. That said I think he would really need 3+ titles with the Clippers to be considered in that ilk.

tredigs
07-28-2019, 05:54 AM
Kawhi definitely has a chance to go down as a top 5 all-time NBA player with his move to the Clippers. I don't think a move to the Lakers would have given him that chance. That said I think he would really need 3+ titles with the Clippers to be considered in that ilk.

:laugh: here come the Clipper-Capes. Welcome to the Kawhi band wagon buddy. Yes, it would certainly take 3 Clipper titles for that talk to manifest.

Hot take: (And truly no hate here because if the Warriors don't win I want the Clippers or Kings to), I don't think they win a title with him.

Granted, I get they're the clear Vegas favorites. Part of me is probably just rooting against this because I'm annoyed at how hilariously overrated Kawhi has become.

LaVar Ball
07-28-2019, 12:55 PM
Wtf is going on in here?

Kawhi is the best player in the NBA

That's what's going on


He and Uncle Dennis have become the Godfathers of today's NBA. LeBron is old trash.


The Clippers are the future of the league.

LaVar Ball
07-28-2019, 12:56 PM
:laugh: here come the Clipper-Capes. Welcome to the Kawhi band wagon buddy. Yes, it would certainly take 3 Clipper titles for that talk to manifest.

Hot take: (And truly no hate here because if the Warriors don't win I want the Clippers or Kings to), I don't think they win a title with him.

Granted, I get they're the clear Vegas favorites. Part of me is probably just rooting against this because I'm annoyed at how hilariously overrated Kawhi has become.

Cracka2HI has always been a Clipper fan

tredigs
07-28-2019, 03:15 PM
Cracka2HI has always been a Clipper fan

I know. He's throwing the cape for Kawhi...

WolfPackNWO
07-28-2019, 05:48 PM
If he were to win a title this year with LAC he would definitely have an argument as a top 15 player all-time, possibly top 10 but well see how it plays out..

tredigs
07-28-2019, 06:20 PM
If he were to win a title this year with LAC he would definitely have an argument as a top 15 player all-time, possibly top 10 but well see how it plays out..

Lurk longer child.

WolfPackNWO
07-28-2019, 06:32 PM
Lurk longer child.
woah! :speechless:

my bad bro, ill let you get back to post padding...

tredigs
07-28-2019, 07:18 PM
woah! :speechless:

my bad bro, ill let you get back to post padding...

Sorry bruh. You have to back up a statement or have at least 100 posts in here before I let you get away with something as non sensical as calling Kawhi top 10 ALL Time if they win the ship this year (as the pre season favorite).

WolfPackNWO
07-28-2019, 07:59 PM
Sorry bruh. You have to back up a statement or have at least 100 posts in here before I let you get away with something as non sensical as calling Kawhi top 10 ALL Time if they win the ship this year (as the pre season favorite).

Lol i feel you bro. Top 10 may sound bat **** crazy now but if he can repeat what he did this past season and win a 3rd chip/ finals MVP by the age of 30, all with different teams, its gonna be pretty hard to argue against him!!

I mean, Has he even reached his peak yet? the fun guy accomplished all of that after missing most of the previous year with a quad injury & all that drama.

Hes a damn legend in the making!

tredigs
07-28-2019, 08:52 PM
Lol i feel you bro. Top 10 may sound bat **** crazy now but if he can repeat what he did this past season and win a 3rd chip/ finals MVP by the age of 30, all with different teams, its gonna be pretty hard to argue against him!!

I mean, Has he even reached his peak yet? the fun guy accomplished all of that after missing most of the previous year with a quad injury & all that drama.

Hes a damn legend in the making!

He is a legend but even if he wins with the Clips, I am here to discuss his status.

Love your disposition by the way. Stick around.

Tg11
07-29-2019, 04:51 AM
Kawhi is 28 only and he's a 2 time NBA Champion...2 time Finals MVP and if he wins his 3rd ring with a 3rd different team and wins Finals MVP again then Kawhi is definitely Top 15 maybe even Top 10

goingfor28
07-29-2019, 10:38 AM
Very little contention to my Kawhi comments and that is not surprising. Homeboy may be the most overrated player in history (to my knowledge) right now.Steph curry says hi

Htownballa1622
07-29-2019, 11:07 AM
You for real have Kawhi top 17 ALL Time? Over Kevin Garnett, D Wade, Dr. J, Karl Malone, Charles Barkley, etc etc. This is what I'm talking about here.

He's a very good player, but pump the ****ing breaks people. He was brought in with warm blankets to the best organization in all of sports and helped put them back over the top once again in San Antonio. Earning Finals MVP in an easy win over the dismantling Heat on sub 20 ppg with no playmaking ability. At that point his lockdown D carried more weight (that consistently great D is long gone however). It was very much a team win. Duncan was still their clear leader/best player and All NBA 1st Team that year. It was like the Tony Parker or Iguodala Finals MVP. After not making it back to another Finals as the team's best player and throwing away a season, he then joined a 60 win Raptors team in the conference that finally lost Lebron and with some serious light shining from the bball Gods helped put them over the top (in the double OT win against the Bucks to fade going down 3-0, the lucky bounce against Philly in Game 7, and in playing a Finals Team that was at about 50% strength). It was great, but let's not act like this was some legendary carrying of a downtrodden franchise here. They crushed without him and he was simply the All NBA caliber player they needed to squeak them over the top in the newly opened conference. They were essentially gifted the Finals thereafter (Kawhi not taking over by any means).

Again, we are talking about a 0X MVP here who has played in nothing but fantastic organizations that completely catered to his constant load management issues (and carried on just fine without him). He is certainly a guy you want on your playoff roster (especially well rested throughout the year), but give me a ****ing break with the top 20 All Time nonsense.

I would also love to see him able to show up at the very top of the RPM/PIPM ladders at least a couple times (as is he has peaked at 5th).

People are extremely clouded by recency bias with Kawhi. And frankly when you consider his first Finals MVP was against an imploding Heat team with the ghost of D Wade (Kawhi not even being his teams best player), and the second against a team with more significant injuries than any Finals team in history (with Kawhi not being some dominant presence on the floor), we can take those with a grain of salt as well. Specifically as his actual resume' has absolutely ZERO place in a top 20 debate.

/rant.

Tremendous post. This is the Tredigs i miss when it's not personal in regards to players lol.

Tre is right here. Kawhi has had fortunate breaks in his career. He's made the best of his opportunities (especially being GREAT in recent playoff runs) but jumping him into the top 20 is premature.

This is a product of RINGZZ culture imo. I understand it's the ultimate goal but i'd like to see Kawhi carry a team in regular season the way other top 20 guys have. I know he had that great regular season year when Westbrook won mvp but i'm going to need to see more before he can get into top 20.

Also, give me Curry over Kawhi all time quite easily when it's all said and done.

LaVar Ball
07-29-2019, 11:07 AM
Kawhi is 28 only and he's a 2 time NBA Champion...2 time Finals MVP and if he wins his 3rd ring with a 3rd different team and wins Finals MVP again then Kawhi is definitely Top 15 maybe even Top 10

He's already better than LeBron that's for sure.


Kawhi is 2/3 in the finals, LeBron is 3/9. LeBron only has 1 more chip on Kawhi in 6 more finals appearances.

Htownballa1622
07-29-2019, 11:08 AM
He's already better than LeBron that's for sure.


Kawhi is 2/3 in the finals, LeBron is 3/9. LeBron only has 1 more chip on Kawhi in 6 more finals appearances.

No

blams
07-29-2019, 12:23 PM
He's already better than LeBron that's for sure.


Kawhi is 2/3 in the finals, LeBron is 3/9. LeBron only has 1 more chip on Kawhi in 6 more finals appearances.Making the finals > not making them.

The losses don't hurt LeBron's legacy.

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SteBO
07-29-2019, 12:32 PM
Making the finals > not making them.

The losses don't hurt LeBron's legacy.

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It's the most nonsensical argument in sports debate....where somehow making the Finals and losing to the clearly better team is worse than not making it at all.

tredigs
07-29-2019, 03:02 PM
Making the finals > not making them.

The losses don't hurt LeBron's legacy.

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LOL yes, making the Finals is better than the alternative. But you are one serious Stan if you don't think some of the losses hurt his legacy. Multiple sweeps, 5 game losses and the ghost job against the Mavs (where the Heat were huge favorites and he was massively outplayed by D Wade and Dirk, and hell even Jason Terry) all hurt.

blams
07-29-2019, 05:26 PM
LOL yes, making the Finals is better than the alternative. But you are one serious Stan if you don't think some of the losses hurt his legacy. Multiple sweeps, 5 game losses and the ghost job against the Mavs (where the Heat were huge favorites and he was massively outplayed by D Wade and Dirk, and hell even Jason Terry) all hurt.The mavs lost is the only one that he should get criticized for. Other than that, he did nothing but dominate and raise the level of his team.

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tredigs
07-29-2019, 05:44 PM
The mavs lost is the only one that he should get criticized for. Other than that, he did nothing but dominate and raise the level of his team.

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The Mavs loss* is clearly a massive failure that will always haunt his legacy, so Kudos to you for at least getting that right on your 2nd try. Now here is the rub. You can not simultaneously prop him up for coming out of the East all those years against relatively **** competition while also giving him cart blanche for all his other losses.

There is nuance to it and you have to be open to the fact that it is a feat that he would have never come close to achieving with those casts in the West. So long as people readily admit that as well, i have no problem propping him up for beating up on the East before it got good l and he left (to completely miss the playoffs his 1st attempt in the West).

valade16
07-30-2019, 08:13 AM
The Mavs loss* is clearly a massive failure that will always haunt his legacy, so Kudos to you for at least getting that right on your 2nd try. Now here is the rub. You can not simultaneously prop him up for coming out of the East all those years against relatively **** competition while also giving him cart blanche for all his other losses.

There is nuance to it and you have to be open to the fact that it is a feat that he would have never come close to achieving with those casts in the West. So long as people readily admit that as well, i have no problem propping him up for beating up on the East before it got good l and he left (to completely miss the playoffs his 1st attempt in the West).

The inverse of course is that he'd have rolled through any East team that he did manage to come out of the West against. So the question is, would his legacy be improved by being say 3-0 out of the West or 3-6 out of the East?

IKnowHoops
07-30-2019, 09:06 AM
LOL yes, making the Finals is better than the alternative. But you are one serious Stan if you don't think some of the losses hurt his legacy. Multiple sweeps, 5 game losses and the ghost job against the Mavs (where the Heat were huge favorites and he was massively outplayed by D Wade and Dirk, and hell even Jason Terry) all hurt.

Similarly to how Curry has zero finals mvps will hurt his career. But not quite as bad because Bron at least has been the best player on the court regardless of wins besides the Mavs series. Not winning a finals mvp is unheard of for an all time player whos been to 5 finals.

IKnowHoops
07-30-2019, 09:10 AM
The Mavs loss* is clearly a massive failure that will always haunt his legacy, so Kudos to you for at least getting that right on your 2nd try. Now here is the rub. You can not simultaneously prop him up for coming out of the East all those years against relatively **** competition while also giving him cart blanche for all his other losses.

There is nuance to it and you have to be open to the fact that it is a feat that he would have never come close to achieving with those casts in the West. So long as people readily admit that as well, i have no problem propping him up for beating up on the East before it got good l and he left (to completely miss the playoffs his 1st attempt in the West).

But you must also realize no other player in the nba could/would of taken those teams to the finals 8 consecutive seasons.

So....

He couldnt do it in the West

And

Hes the only guy that could of done it in the east

Both must be acknowledged

Jamiecballer
07-30-2019, 11:17 AM
What middling all star does what kawhi just did. certainly not middleton. I honestly value Kawhis title above Currys, injuries influenced both events only Kawhi has the build to crush on both ends.There is very little to debate on that, although I do think the Raptors constructed a well oiled machine to surround Kawhi. As great as Curry is prime Lebron in his place and we are wayyyy sadder this offseason.

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Jamiecballer
07-30-2019, 11:23 AM
Steph curry says hiAgreed. I dont think there has ever been a champion receive such a disproportionate amount of credit for team success. I'm not debating the logistical and very tangible value of the 3 pointer but I think there is a little bit of the basketball equivalent of the old 'chicks dig the long ball' working for him that I believe will nudge back a bit the other way over time.

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