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View Full Version : Did Lebron make the right decision in leaving Miami to return to Cleveland?



mightybosstone
07-17-2019, 04:59 PM
PSD posters, help me settle a little dispute between myself and a certain unnamed PSD poster you can probably all guess without putting too much thought into it. Did Lebron make the right decision to leave Miami to return to Cleveland? Would he have won more rings had he stayed in Miami, and would it have benefited his legacy to stay with the Heat rather than return home and win a wing in his home metro? Or did winning a ring in Cleveland and everything that's happened since he left the Heat ultimately justify his decision to leave Miami?

Feel free to discuss, and I look forward to your responses.

Quinnsanity
07-17-2019, 05:07 PM
He had to go back to Cleveland. One ring there was worth three or four anywhere else. Sort of like the equivalent of winning for the Knicks would be for anyone else. That championship, especially with the comeback and against the 73-win team, just matters more. He wasn't gonna win more titles with the Heat as they were constructed, but even if he had, it just wouldn't have meant as much.

Wrigheyes4MVP
07-17-2019, 05:10 PM
Easily it helped his legacy. It was the only thing that could save it.

Saddletramp
07-17-2019, 05:13 PM
I don’t vote in these polls because I only use the mobile site and it’s a goddamn mess to get back to the mobile site from the desk top site on a phone.

So throw a “He made the right decision” vote on top for me.

R. Johnson#3
07-17-2019, 05:15 PM
He had to go back and make everything come full circle. Chris Bosh still gets blood clots so the Heat might not have won anymore rings even if he stayed.

LaVar Ball
07-17-2019, 05:39 PM
Short answer: Yes

SteBO
07-17-2019, 05:43 PM
CLE won a title, so it's really easy to say that yeah he made the right decision. Had the league not suspended Draymond and the Warriors not been injured, we'd be singing a different tune.

But hey, in the end he won CLE a title, and it added significantly to his legacy. Can't deny the result.

mightybosstone
07-17-2019, 05:46 PM
So for those who haven't voted yet or aren't keep track, we're looking at 7-0 for "yes" at this point, including one "yes" vote from a completely sane and reasonable Heat fan.

greg_ory_2005
07-17-2019, 05:50 PM
Yes

jericho
07-17-2019, 06:06 PM
While I do agree that one title in Cleveland equals 3. 20 to 30 years from now people are not going to look at the side stories or how did they get there. They are going to look at how many titles he got. Numbers its what's going to matter to them. To me Lebron is better than Kobe to others is going to be Kobe has 5 rings in less tries. Miami could have gone to the NBA and applied for the health waiver thing on Bosh. And build with the extra cap

YAALREADYKNO
07-17-2019, 06:39 PM
Yes. Wade was aging and the heats roster was in question and nothing was guaranteed. With the Cavs you had questions as well but you had a younger Kyrie and the #1 overall pick (which turned into Kevin Love) to use as trade bait to get another guy there as well. It’s easy to look back now and say “well if Lebron would’ve stayed they would’ve had this guy and that guy” but at that time it was no guarantee if it would’ve played out at that way. Lebron chose to play with a younger roster at the end of the day and got a ring for it and would’ve probably had another one had both Kyrie and Love not been out with injuries the year before.

Vee-Rex
07-17-2019, 06:54 PM
For sure. He even said something similar, that his championship in The Land meant more to him than his Miami championships.

He fulfilled his promise. 52 years was Cleveland's championship drought. The Mistake by the Lake. The Factory of Sadness. The Butthole of America. Burning River City.

And to do it in the most dramatic way. Coming back from being down 3-1 against a 73-win team.

Can't get much better than that.

TylerSL
07-17-2019, 07:51 PM
I believe two things about Lebron's return to Cleveland, that it helped his legacy and he has been less successful than he would have been had he stayed. I know that sounds like it doesn't make sense but bringing a championship to Cleveland surpassed the NBA, it surpassed basketball. Obviously had he stayed in Miami he never would have been able to do that, and he will be remembered as the guy who not only ended the Cleveland sports drought, but he came back home to do it. On the flip side, had Lebron stayed in Miami I believe he would be at least a four time NBA champion right now, not a three time champ.

When he returned to Cleveland in in 2014, the Heat just came off a Finals annihilation at the hands of the Spurs. San Antonio obliterated Miami and D Wade looked past his prime. Lebron would have had to have taken even more of the offensive burden going forward, which is a big reason he went back home where they had Kyrie Irving. However Miami had ways to improve, and before Lebron left they were trying to get Kyle Lowry from the Raptors. I don't believe they would have acquired Lowry, but Miami was already after another ball handler before Lebron left. I believe Miami ultimately would have acquired Dragic sooner, before the season started, and entered the 14-15 season with Dragic and the Big 3. I also believe Ray Allen would have returned for both the 14-15, and 15-16 seasons had Lebron remained in Miami.

I also know that Chris Bosh's career was ultimately derailed by blood clots, and his season ended at the All Star break in 14-15. That still would have happened with Lebron on the team, but Miami had another roster move that would have dramatically helped their chances in 2014, Hassan Whiteside. I know Whiteside has had all sorts of issues with the team, but back in 2014-15 he was a really good contributor. When Whiteside burst onto the scene, he was legitimately one of the best Centers in basketball, which is what gave him his huge ego. For a time Whiteside was really good, in his first three seasons with the Heat (2014-2016) his per 36 stats were 18/15/3.5 (pts/rbds/blks) while shooting .587 from the floor. If Lebron James was playing for the Heat during the rise of Whiteside, he never would have become the headcase he became. Whiteside's ego became a problem because of who wasn't on the team, no Lebron, no Bosh, no Battier, no Ray Allen, and eventually even no D Wade. Guys like Alonzo Mourning, retired for years, and Udonis Haslem, bench warmer, was never going to be enough to reign in Whiteside. Lebron James is a bit different, and Whiteside would have been motivated for just being on the floor with him, especially considering he was out of the league a year prior.

Lebron lost a close six game series to Golden State in the 2015 Finals with Matthew Dellavedova as his second best player, whereas in Miami he would have had Dwyane Wade, Goran Dragic, and Hassan Whiteside as the next best players. Delly doesn't hold a candle to any of them, and with the way Lebron played in those Finals, averaging 36 points, 13 boards, 9 assists in lieu of becoming the first player ever to lead both teams in all 5 major statistical catagories (pts/rbds/asts/stls/blks), Miami would have handily put down the upstart Warriors in 2015. Lebron would have won his 3rd championship and 3rd Finals MVP, and his Finals record would have been 3-3 at the time.

The Warriors would have gone into 2016 looking for revenge and dominate the league in route to a 73-9 season, Miami would have mostly remained the same, maybe adding a role player or two, and the two teams would have once again met in the Finals. While no Bosh would have been a big blow to the Heat, but I still think the Heat would have beat the Warriors again in 2016. While Goran Dragic is no Kyrie Irving, a back court of Dragic and Wade would have produced more than Kyrie and JR Smith. While Whiteside doesn't spread the floor like Kevin Love, nobody on the Warriors would have been able to guard him underneath the basket. A Lebron/Whiteside pick and roll would have been a sight to see. With Lebron averaging 30/11/9/2.5/2 (pts/rbds/asts/stls/blks), his 2016 Finals averages, the Heat would have just had enough to overcome the Warriors. Lebron would have won his 4th ring and 4th Finals MVP, making his Finals record 4-3.

KD would have then joined the Warriors, who would be coming off back to back Finals losses at the hands of Lebron, and KD wouldn't have been as vilified because Golden State would have yet to get over the hump. With KD in Golden State, the Warriors would have once again met the Heat in the Finals, Lebron's 7th straight trip, and they would have obliterated the Heat in a similar way to the Spurs in 2014, once again denying Lebron a three peat. Kevin Durant would have won Finals MVP, and Lebron's Finals record would fall to 4-4.

At this point I believe Lebron's run in Miami would be over and I think he would have joined the Lakers a year earlier, in the summer of 2017. I also think the Lakers would have signed Chris Paul to join Lebron, instead of going to Houston. Rather than draft Lonzo Ball, I believe the Lakers would have traded the #2 pick, D-Lo and Ingram to the Pelicans for AD, who probably would have wanted to go the Lakers a year earlier with Rich Paul helping facilitate it. A Lebron/AD/CP3 for the 17-18 season would compete with the KD/Steph/Klay/Draymond Warriors in the West.

So IMO, if Lebron had stayed in Miami he ultimately would have had a more successful career, because he would have won more. That said, his victory in Cleveland is one of the all time iconic moments in NBA history and he would have been robbed of that feat had he remained in Miami. That said I believe him staying in Miami, and ultimately going to the Lakers in 2017, would have given him a better chance at success with LA. It's kind a wash, I voted yes.

GREATNESS ONE
07-17-2019, 08:43 PM
He’s still going to win one more :win:

IndyRealist
07-17-2019, 09:05 PM
While I do agree that one title in Cleveland equals 3. 20 to 30 years from now people are not going to look at the side stories or how did they get there. They are going to look at how many titles he got. Numbers its what's going to matter to them. To me Lebron is better than Kobe to others is going to be Kobe has 5 rings in less tries. Miami could have gone to the NBA and applied for the health waiver thing on Bosh. And build with the extra cap

I disagree. That's true of the eras like the 60's Celtics or Wilt and Kareem, but from the 80s on there is archived video that you can easily go back and watch. I just recently watched a video on Bird v. Magic on youtube. We have so much more than boxscores and record books to look back on these days. The flu game was over 20 years ago, but everyone here should know what I'm talking about, and if they don't they can easily look it up. Legacy matters.

jericho
07-17-2019, 10:26 PM
I disagree. That's true of the eras like the 60's Celtics or Wilt and Kareem, but from the 80s on there is archived video that you can easily go back and watch. I just recently watched a video on Bird v. Magic on youtube. We have so much more than boxscores and record books to look back on these days. The flu game was over 20 years ago, but everyone here should know what I'm talking about, and if they don't they can easily look it up. Legacy matters.

That's more for students of the game and people that love the game. The media and people that just follow the numbers andare not going to care about the videos.

I mean just think about it this way. I do believe that Lebron is higher in the all time rankings than Kobe. But there is still people and there will still be people that put Kobe ahead of Lebron just because he has 5 rings (even tho they stole one from the kings lol). So let's say Lebron stays in Miami which is a better destination than Cleveland for free agents plus the cap is going up. Also let's not forget that Miami could apply for the health insurance waiver thing with Bosh so let's see

14-15 season plays like Tyler said.
15-16 they can add some more pieces with Bosh contract off the books
16-17 they could just retool
17-18 that's the year with the spike in the cap space. They could have brought anybody they wanted to at that point.
So in that situation he could have won 2 to 4 titles more. Ending the hole Kobe has 5 and how many does Lebron have?

blams
07-17-2019, 10:39 PM
He made the right choice, and he would've gotten at minimum 2 more rings there if not for KD breaking the league

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suffer2peace
07-17-2019, 10:41 PM
He had to go back to Cleveland. One ring there was worth three or four anywhere else.

:facepalm:

suffer2peace
07-17-2019, 10:42 PM
He made the right choice, and he would've gotten at minimum 2 more rings there if not for KD breaking the league

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You can actually say he returned the favor back to Lebron, when Lebron formed a super team when OKC was competing for a ring.

blams
07-17-2019, 10:46 PM
You can actually say he returned the favor back to Lebron, when Lebron formed a super team when OKC was competing for a ring.Nah, he built a team from scratch to compete against an already existing superteam. With no depth.

He didnt join an already built 73-9 team that already had a championship under its belt.

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IKnowHoops
07-17-2019, 11:10 PM
That ring in Cleveland against a 73 win team is what made him arguably the Goat. That chase down block is straight gold. Bron made the right choice. He went to eight straight finals in the east. He proved that where ever he was “in the east” he could will that team to the finals. We will see if Durant has that power. But nobody does, not even Giannis

LaVar Ball
07-17-2019, 11:27 PM
While I do agree that one title in Cleveland equals 3. 20 to 30 years from now people are not going to look at the side stories or how did they get there. They are going to look at how many titles he got. Numbers its what's going to matter to them. To me Lebron is better than Kobe to others is going to be Kobe has 5 rings in less tries. Miami could have gone to the NBA and applied for the health waiver thing on Bosh. And build with the extra cap
Naw everyone will rmr a 73-9 team choking a 3-1 series lead and the Bron block on Iggy, which led to the warriors adding KD.


2016 NBA Finals is one of the most iconic history changing Finals like ever.

aman_13
07-18-2019, 12:53 AM
Absolutely!

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aman_13
07-18-2019, 01:02 AM
That ring in Cleveland against a 73 win team is what made him arguably the Goat. That chase down block is straight gold. Bron made the right choice. He went to eight straight finals in the east. He proved that where ever he was “in the east” he could will that team to the finals. We will see if Durant has that power. But nobody does, not even Giannis

It's actually crazy to think about. People can joke about the east being weak and all but I never get the feeling that Giannis or anyone else in the East is unbeatable like LeBron. And I know I won't with Durant. LeBron truly was a nightmare to go up against because he is so damn smart. No one in the league makes the pass out of any variation of help side defense as well as him.

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YAALREADYKNO
07-18-2019, 01:20 AM
It's actually crazy to think about. People can joke about the east being weak and all but I never get the feeling that Giannis or anyone else in the East is unbeatable like LeBron. And I know I won't with Durant. LeBron truly was a nightmare to go up against because he is so damn smart. No one in the league makes the pass out of any variation of help side defense as well as him.

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2nd greatest player of all time

DanG
07-18-2019, 04:49 AM
It was the best thing he could have done for his legacy. The ring he won for Cleveland means way more than the two he won in Miami.

and if you think about it, had Kawhi joined the Lakers, the ring(s) he would have possibly won these upcoming years would have been his least impressive championships.

But now, if LeBron wins a ring with the Lakers next year, it would enhance his legacy much more.

valade16
07-18-2019, 08:17 AM
That ring in Cleveland against a 73 win team is what made him arguably the Goat. That chase down block is straight gold. Bron made the right choice. He went to eight straight finals in the east. He proved that where ever he was “in the east” he could will that team to the finals. We will see if Durant has that power. But nobody does, not even Giannis

Yeah to put in perspective how much that has done for his legacy, that play has become the defining highlight of his career. For generations they are going to show that specific play when talking about Bron in the same way they show MJ's series winning step back jumper vs Utah. It was iconic.

He made the right decision.

jericho
07-18-2019, 09:56 AM
Here is my thing as to why I say he made the wrong choice. He could have potentially had won 6 titles and lost 4 times in the finals. That with his career stats could have pushed for his claim as the GOAT but now he is the 2nd GOAT not bad at all. But he could have been at the top

valade16
07-18-2019, 10:37 AM
Here is my thing as to why I say he made the wrong choice. He could have potentially had won 6 titles and lost 4 times in the finals. That with his career stats could have pushed for his claim as the GOAT but now he is the 2nd GOAT not bad at all. But he could have been at the top

He could have potentially won 6 titles? How? In Miami with Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh? Dwyane Wade played a further 2 years in Miami before his body broke down so completely he went to Chicago for a year. Chris Bosh played another 2 years and then had to leave the league for medical reasons.

So how would he have won 6 titles? Who would he have been playing with. He would have had Wade and Bosh for 2 more years.

jericho
07-18-2019, 10:41 AM
He could have potentially won 6 titles? How? In Miami with Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh? Dwyane Wade played a further 2 years in Miami before his body broke down so completely he went to Chicago for a year. Chris Bosh played another 2 years and then had to leave the league for medical reasons.

So how would he have won 6 titles? Who would he have been playing with. He would have had Wade and Bosh for 2 more years.

Wade would have gotten a discount had Bron stayed. More vets would have come to compete. Whitesides was good back then. Dragic. Bosh health insurance contract waiver thing= more cap to fill roster. Spike in cap.

unleashthebeast
07-18-2019, 11:34 AM
Would he have won more rings if he had stayed in Miami? I believe yes. Like others said though, one ring in Cleveland was worth like 3 or 4 anywhere else, so his legacy benefited by returning to Cleveland and grabbing one.

mightybosstone
07-18-2019, 11:39 AM
Wade would have gotten a discount had Bron stayed. More vets would have come to compete. Whitesides was good back then. Dragic. Bosh health insurance contract waiver thing= more cap to fill roster. Spike in cap.

I brought this up in the other thread, but this idea that the Miami team would have necessarily won a whole lot more titles has like zero evidence to support it. Wade wasn't even a legitimate No. 2 on a contender at that point, and Bosh's contract would have severely hindered their ability to add more star talent. That Heat team would have been destroyed by the Warriors every year had they reached the Finals, or at the very least I don't think you could say they would have been more likely to beat them than a Cavs team with Kyrie and Love would have been (maybe not counting that first season when both guys were banged up).

Bottom line, if you had to weigh Lebron's chances at winning titles with Miami versus the one guaranteed title he already got with Cleveland, the vast majority of people would agree it's unlikely he was going to win more with Miami had he stayed.

mightybosstone
07-18-2019, 11:41 AM
Would he have won more rings if he had stayed in Miami? I believe yes. Like others said though, one ring in Cleveland was worth like 3 or 4 anywhere else, so his legacy benefited by returning to Cleveland and grabbing one.

Why? How? If the Heat couldn't past an ancient Spurs team that fourth year together, what evidence is there to suggest they were capable of getting past a much, much better Warriors team the last five years? Again, I keep hearing this from Heat fans, but all I get is rough grasping at straws—hypothetical deals and players that could have maybe happened. But nobody wants to accept just how far Wade had fallen off at that point or how much of a hindrance Bosh's contract would have been.

SteBO
07-18-2019, 12:17 PM
Why? How? If the Heat couldn't past an ancient Spurs team that fourth year together, what evidence is there to suggest they were capable of getting past a much, much better Warriors team the last five years? Again, I keep hearing this from Heat fans, but all I get is rough grasping at straws—hypothetical deals and players that could have maybe happened. But nobody wants to accept just how far Wade had fallen off at that point or how much of a hindrance Bosh's contract would have been.
All I know is that they had a Gasol deal on the table barring his decision. I can't speak for other Heat fans because Lord knows my fan sensibilities differ from many, but I trust Rileys ability to retool the team. History gives me every reason to believe so. Our roster then was aging though, and we would've had to do some dealing. I don't think we would've won the following year, but 2016? 2017? Perhaps. Not like it would've been hard to get other FAs to commit w/ LeBron around. Hell, we got Jimmy Butler here with no other stars and no cap space.

But again, LeBron had nothing to lose and everything to gain by just winning one in CLE, not to mention the good PR and organizational grasp he had. Even if he did win more rings here, they wouldn't have meant as much as the one he did win with the Cavs, not to say they would've meant nothing of course.....

unleashthebeast
07-18-2019, 12:20 PM
Why? How? If the Heat couldn't past an ancient Spurs team that fourth year together, what evidence is there to suggest they were capable of getting past a much, much better Warriors team the last five years? Again, I keep hearing this from Heat fans, but all I get is rough grasping at straws—hypothetical deals and players that could have maybe happened. But nobody wants to accept just how far Wade had fallen off at that point or how much of a hindrance Bosh's contract would have been.

Yeah just echoing what SteBO has already said. We had the Gasol deal in place, and the Whiteside and Goran additions were in that next year. Nothing to say that similar deals wouldn't have gotten done had LeBron come back. Fairly confident Riley building around the best player in the world would have gotten multiple additional championships out of him.

jericho
07-18-2019, 12:21 PM
I brought this up in the other thread, but this idea that the Miami team would have necessarily won a whole lot more titles has like zero evidence to support it. Wade wasn't even a legitimate No. 2 on a contender at that point, and Bosh's contract would have severely hindered their ability to add more star talent. That Heat team would have been destroyed by the Warriors every year had they reached the Finals, or at the very least I don't think you could say they would have been more likely to beat them than a Cavs team with Kyrie and Love would have been (maybe not counting that first season when both guys were banged up).

Bottom line, if you had to weigh Lebron's chances at winning titles with Miami versus the one guaranteed title he already got with Cleveland, the vast majority of people would agree it's unlikely he was going to win more with Miami had he stayed.

You have to remember tho. That first year with the cavs vs Warriors, Kyrie was injured. So having a line up of

Whitesides
Haslam
Lebron
Wade
Dragic

Is better than what the Cavs had in the finals that year. Wade did started to decline but not by much at that point. So I dont think it's a stretch to say that the Heat could have won that one. Oh and that's without including any moves Pat could have done to add to that roster.

15-16 season
Wade would have recognized he wasnt the player he once was and start coming from the bench.
Before I make my next point.

How does waving contract because of injury works? Because I believe that Miami could have done that with Bosh. Freeing 20mil in cap space for Miami to play with. Whether by trades or adding free agents the roster would have been different. Btw here is a list of free agents they could have targeted and improve the roster.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.businessinsider.com/best-nba-free-agents-2015-6

They could have gotten Jimmy, Love or even Milsap. And Bosh would have been out of the equation.

Again I would take that roster of
Lebron
Wade
Whitesides
Any superstar
Dragic

Over
Bron
Kyrie
Love

16-17 season even if they retooled I think they would have lost this one.

17-18 season is the one with the spike on the cap space. Which would have allowed Miami to add yet another player. Let's see who was available that season.

https://www.hoopsrumors.com/2017/06/top-50-nba-free-agents-of-2017.html

They could have added any of those names.
Not saying that this is what it would look like but it could have been possible to happen.

Whiteside
Griffin
Lebron
Butler
Dragic

With wade from the bench and some solid vets

That's why I'm say that it is possible that lebron could have won more in Miami. It's not a stretch. And 6 titles with going to the finals over 10 times plus his career stats would put him in the GOAT convo with MJ not the 2nd Goat.

I do agree that the 1 title in Cleveland means more. But that's more of a personal accomplishment. People 20 to 30 years from now are not going to care about that part at all.

jericho
07-18-2019, 12:53 PM
All I know is that they had a Gasol deal on the table barring his decision. I can't speak for other Heat fans because Lord knows my fan sensibilities differ from many, but I trust Rileys ability to retool the team. History gives me every reason to believe so. Our roster then was aging though, and we would've had to do some dealing. I don't think we would've won the following year, but 2016? 2017? Perhaps. Not like it would've been hard to get other FAs to commit w/ LeBron around. Hell, we got Jimmy Butler here with no other stars and no cap space.

But again, LeBron had nothing to lose and everything to gain by just winning one in CLE, not to mention the good PR and organizational grasp he had. Even if he did win more rings here, they wouldn't have meant as much as the one he did win with the Cavs, not to say they would've meant nothing of course.....

I didn't even know about the Gasol deal. So yeah that had moves that they could have played with. It's not like they were going to be handicapped to not get anybody added

jericho
07-18-2019, 12:57 PM
Just in case I'm not arguing that the 1 title in Cleveland means more than a few more titles in Miami. I agree with that. My point is that fans later on are not going to care about that. Just us that lived it and witnessed it.

jericho
07-18-2019, 01:03 PM
You have to remember tho. That first year with the cavs vs Warriors, Kyrie was injured. So having a line up of

Whitesides
Haslam
Lebron
Wade
Dragic

Is better than what the Cavs had in the finals that year. Wade did started to decline but not by much at that point. So I dont think it's a stretch to say that the Heat could have won that one. Oh and that's without including any moves Pat could have done to add to that roster.

15-16 season
Wade would have recognized he wasnt the player he once was and start coming from the bench.
Before I make my next point.

How does waving contract because of injury works? Because I believe that Miami could have done that with Bosh. Freeing 20mil in cap space for Miami to play with. Whether by trades or adding free agents the roster would have been different. Btw here is a list of free agents they could have targeted and improve the roster.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.businessinsider.com/best-nba-free-agents-2015-6

They could have gotten Jimmy, Love or even Milsap. And Bosh would have been out of the equation.

Again I would take that roster of
Lebron
Wade
Whitesides
Any superstar
Dragic

Over
Bron
Kyrie
Love

16-17 season even if they retooled I think they would have lost this one.

17-18 season is the one with the spike on the cap space. Which would have allowed Miami to add yet another player. Let's see who was available that season.

https://www.hoopsrumors.com/2017/06/top-50-nba-free-agents-of-2017.html

They could have added any of those names.
Not saying that this is what it would look like but it could have been possible to happen.

Whiteside
Griffin
Lebron
Butler
Dragic

With wade from the bench and some solid vets

That's why I'm say that it is possible that lebron could have won more in Miami. It's not a stretch. And 6 titles with going to the finals over 10 times plus his career stats would put him in the GOAT convo with MJ not the 2nd Goat.

I do agree that the 1 title in Cleveland means more. But that's more of a personal accomplishment. People 20 to 30 years from now are not going to care about that part at all.

I think I'm the first one that is quoting themselves lol. Btw that 17-18 season they could have added KD. I mean he joined a 73-9 Warriors it's possible that he would have joined Lebron.

jericho
07-18-2019, 01:06 PM
Btw my bad 16-17 season is the one with the spike

mightybosstone
07-18-2019, 01:07 PM
PSD's quote function is clearly broken, but I find it not that especially surprising that the only people supporting this idea that Lebron would have won more rings had he stayed in Miami are all Heat fans. You guys are basing this idea completely on speculation, hearsay and possibilities of things that never came to fruition and you have zero evidence to support.

Consider that in his four years in Miami after adding Bosh and Lebron, Riley made ZERO signings or trades for other legitimate star players. The closest thing you can say he came to that was adding a 33-year-old Shane Battier for three years and a 37-year-old Ray Allen for two years. That's not exactly the "star player" you're all assuming the Heat were going to add. And just because the Heat had a meeting with Pau in no way guarantees he would have signed with Miami—which inevitably would have been for a pretty big discount.

The Dragic deal and the development of Whiteside both would have made for nice additions, but ultimately do Dragic and Whiteside make that team better on paper than the prior teams with a healthy Bosh and a better Wade? No, I don't think it does. And I certainly don't think that team would have been better than a Cavs team with Kyrie and Love, who easily were better over Lebron's four years in Cleveland than any two players Miami had.

You guys are certainly welcome to disagree—that's your prerogative. But when you look around and realize that the only people on your side are fans of the same team, that's when you have to start questioning the legitimacy of your take. I'll admit I do it with the Rockets sometimes—we all have to recognize when we're being homers. I kinda think that's what's happening here.

ewing
07-18-2019, 01:12 PM
No he's a ***** and if his legacy is better shouldn't be the only context.

mightybosstone
07-18-2019, 01:14 PM
^ Huh? No clue what point you're trying to make here. Care to elaborate?

SteBO
07-18-2019, 01:22 PM
MTB I'm not quite sure what you want Heat fans to do. I hear your hypotheticals point, but they've pulled off better before. They've seen Riley put contenders together before, multiple times. Heat fans have every reason to believe that had LBJ stuck around they would've won a title or two more. You can call it homerism, but why should/would they doubt their own 3 time championship franchise?

Over recent years, I'm sure you've had faith that Morey can put a title contender together in HOU and that's without winning anything, even a conference title, correct? Why should MIA fans think any differently when the Heat have won titles? You acknowledged as such, so credit to you, but still....seems odd to me.

jericho
07-18-2019, 01:23 PM
PSD's quote function is clearly broken, but I find it not that especially surprising that the only people supporting this idea that Lebron would have won more rings had he stayed in Miami are all Heat fans. You guys are basing this idea completely on speculation, hearsay and possibilities of things that never came to fruition and you have zero evidence to support.

Consider that in his four years in Miami after adding Bosh and Lebron, Riley made ZERO signings or trades for other legitimate star players. The closest thing you can say he came to that was adding a 33-year-old Shane Battier for three years and a 37-year-old Ray Allen for two years. That's not exactly the "star player" you're all assuming the Heat were going to add. And just because the Heat had a meeting with Pau in no way guarantees he would have signed with Miami—which inevitably would have been for a pretty big discount.

The Dragic deal and the development of Whiteside both would have made for nice additions, but ultimately do Dragic and Whiteside make that team better on paper than the prior teams with a healthy Bosh and a better Wade? No, I don't think it does. And I certainly don't think that team would have been better than a Cavs team with Kyrie and Love, who easily were better over Lebron's four years in Cleveland than any two players Miami had.

You guys are certainly welcome to disagree—that's your prerogative. But when you look around and realize that the only people on your side are fans of the same team, that's when you have to start questioning the legitimacy of your take. I'll admit I do it with the Rockets sometimes—we all have to recognize when we're being homers. I kinda think that's what's happening here.

I'm actually not a heat fan and couldn't care less for Lebron. Not even a fan of his anx even less of Miami. This thread was going to be based on ideas and speculation to assume that the heat would have stayed the same ain't fair. Bosh wasnt going to be healthy so we cant scratch that off. The league provides some type of insurances that would have gotten his contract of the books for Miami and Miami could have explored that option to add more talent to their roster.

I'm speculating that Miami would have done some moves to add to their team. You are speculating they dont. Difference of opinion.

I am speculating that miami on that 14-15 on the finals with
Whiteside
Haslam
Lebron
Wade
Dragic

Would have been better and could have won a title with
Love and lebron because Kyrie was injured.

I am speculating that Miami without Bosh contract could have added some more piece and make Miami a better team than the cavs with
Lebron
Love
Kyrie

Just because they could have had
Lebron
Whiteside
Dragic
Another star
and Wade coming from the bench

I am speculating that the heat could have added another star when the cap spiked up from 70 mil to 90 mil.

But again we are all speculating here.

ewing
07-18-2019, 01:23 PM
^ Huh? No clue what point you're trying to make here. Care to elaborate?

Some players would want to come back the way the Spurs did and kick some *** instead running to another ready made spot and then repeating again and again. He is a self absorbed entitled ***** that got his *** handed to him the finals and then left his team hanging

SteBO
07-18-2019, 01:24 PM
^ Huh? No clue what point you're trying to make here. Care to elaborate?
Eh I wouldn't bother with it. He hates LeBron, and not with any rational thought.

valade16
07-18-2019, 01:31 PM
MTB I'm not quite sure what you want Heat fans to do. I hear your hypotheticals point, but they've pulled off better before. They've seen Riley put contenders together before, multiple times. Heat fans have every reason to believe that had LBJ stuck around they would've won a title or two more. You can call it homerism, but why should/would they doubt their own 3 time championship franchise?

Over recent years, I'm sure you've had faith that Morey can put a title contender together in HOU and that's without winning anything, even a conference title, correct? Why should MIA fans think any differently when the Heat have won titles? You acknowledged as such, so credit to you, but still....seems odd to me.

I get why you'd think that, but you are doing so with fan goggles on. Fan goggles distort your expectations. With fan goggles, all young players are going to make big strides every offseason, players that can't shoot are all going to be decent shooters next season because they're practicing shooting in the offseason, no players are going to get injured, all rumors of disgruntlement are overblown and not going to impact the team, and all older players are not going to fall off.

Is it possible that the Heat win a couple more titles if Bron stays? Sure. But only if you assume a positive result for every variable, something that is fairly unrealistic. Given the fact that Wade and Bosh had literally only 2 more years of productivity, and the fact that their continued success would have relied entirely on FA, that it is far more probable that they didn't win again, especially if you factor in the competition they would have faced in those years. I am taking the Warriors over the Dragic-Bron-Whiteside Heat pretty easily.

unleashthebeast
07-18-2019, 01:51 PM
The question here is basically a referendum on whether or not Riley, Ellisburg and co. would have been able to put a better team around LeBron than the Cavs did with Kyrie (who left), KLove, and all those **** contracts. I'm a Heat fan sure but I certainly believe Pat would have put a better roster around LeBron than Cleveland did over that 4 year span. If you choose to believe otherwise, so be it.

jericho
07-18-2019, 01:52 PM
I get why you'd think that, but you are doing so with fan goggles on. Fan goggles distort your expectations. With fan goggles, all young players are going to make big strides every offseason, players that can't shoot are all going to be decent shooters next season because they're practicing shooting in the offseason, no players are going to get injured, all rumors of disgruntlement are overblown and not going to impact the team, and all older players are not going to fall off.

Is it possible that the Heat win a couple more titles if Bron stays? Sure. But only if you assume a positive result for every variable, something that is fairly unrealistic. Given the fact that Wade and Bosh had literally only 2 more years of productivity, and the fact that their continued success would have relied entirely on FA, that it is far more probable that they didn't win again, especially if you factor in the competition they would have faced in those years. I am taking the Warriors over the Dragic-Bron-Whiteside Heat pretty easily.

That's the problem people are failing to see. Yeah just Bron, Whiteside and Dragic alone couldn't beat the Warriors. Wade would have been there in a more limited role still. And they could have added 2 more star players potentially. So it's more like Bron, Whiteside, Dragic, star player, star player and Wade plus Vets could have beaten Gstate.

SteBO
07-18-2019, 01:53 PM
I get why you'd think that, but you are doing so with fan goggles on. Fan goggles distort your expectations. With fan goggles, all young players are going to make big strides every offseason, players that can't shoot are all going to be decent shooters next season because they're practicing shooting in the offseason, no players are going to get injured, all rumors of disgruntlement are overblown and not going to impact the team, and all older players are not going to fall off.

Is it possible that the Heat win a couple more titles if Bron stays? Sure. But only if you assume a positive result for every variable, something that is fairly unrealistic. Given the fact that Wade and Bosh had literally only 2 more years of productivity, and the fact that their continued success would have relied entirely on FA, that it is far more probable that they didn't win again, especially if you factor in the competition they would have faced in those years. I am taking the Warriors over the Dragic-Bron-Whiteside Heat pretty easily.
I don't disagree on the Warriors point and your analysis on Heats roster situation at the time (I've acknowledged as such). But again, I have history on my side that says Riley could retool, compete, and potentially win. Dragic/Whiteside were never really foreseen as part of that, and the Heat would've had their sights set on better via trade and/or FA.

We'll never know obviously, but you have the end result to work off of, so your stance is an easy one to take. I don't have that pleasure.

I think I've plowed through this discourse enough for one day.

valade16
07-18-2019, 02:16 PM
That's the problem people are failing to see. Yeah just Bron, Whiteside and Dragic alone couldn't beat the Warriors. Wade would have been there in a more limited role still. And they could have added 2 more star players potentially. So it's more like Bron, Whiteside, Dragic, star player, star player and Wade plus Vets could have beaten Gstate.


I don't disagree on the Warriors point and your analysis on Heats roster situation at the time (I've acknowledged as such). But again, I have history on my side that says Riley could retool, compete, and potentially win. Dragic/Whiteside were never really foreseen as part of that, and the Heat would've had their sights set on better via trade and/or FA.

We'll never know obviously, but you have the end result to work off of, so your stance is an easy one to take. I don't have that pleasure.

I think I've plowed through this discourse enough for one day.


I get the idea that the Heat could have added more to the team, I even believe that Riley and Co would have added more. But I would take the for sure Championship that LeBron won over the potential championships that had everything worked out he may have won in Miami.

I mean, if Riley were so amazing at putting a roster together around Bron, why didn't he put a better one around LeBron the first 4 years? It was Bron, Wade, Bosh and a bunch of old guys. Their final year outside the big 3 their playoff rotation featured 2 young guys (Mario Chalmers and Norris Cole), 38 year old Ray Allen, 34 year old Rashard Lewis, 35 year old Chris Anderson, 35 year old Shane Battier, and 33 year old Udonis Haslem.

If Riley were as good as you say at constructing a team around LeBron, he probably would have done so by then.

Rivera
07-18-2019, 02:35 PM
just so I am clear there roster if LBJ would have stayed would have been

Dragic/Wade/LBJ/Bosh/Pau with Whiteside/Haslem off the bench? Then you would have had the vet FA's sign minimum deals to follow LBJ

compared to the previous season

Chalmers/Wade/Battier/LBJ/Bosh with Ray Allen/Haslem/Rashard Lewis off the bench

if that above lineup is true, Miami would have been better and probably better than the LBJ return to Cleveland. I can see why some HEAT fans think he would have won more titles

I agree that LBJ going to CLE and winning helped changed his perception around all fans including casuals, but I also agree that 10-15 years from now no one is going to remember or care. Kind of like how no one cares that Jordan couldnt get out of the first round without Scottie. People always forget and dont want to hear the details on how someone won how someone failed, especially one who is in high regard

jericho
07-18-2019, 03:14 PM
just so I am clear there roster if LBJ would have stayed would have been

Dragic/Wade/LBJ/Bosh/Pau with Whiteside/Haslem off the bench? Then you would have had the vet FA's sign minimum deals to follow LBJ

compared to the previous season

Chalmers/Wade/Battier/LBJ/Bosh with Ray Allen/Haslem/Rashard Lewis off the bench

if that above lineup is true, Miami would have been better and probably better than the LBJ return to Cleveland. I can see why some HEAT fans think he would have won more titles

I agree that LBJ going to CLE and winning helped changed his perception around all fans including casuals, but I also agree that 10-15 years from now no one is going to remember or care. Kind of like how no one cares that Jordan couldnt get out of the first round without Scottie. People always forget and dont want to hear the details on how someone won how someone failed, especially one who is in high regard

This is what I'm saying. For us that live in the now. We know what it took from LBJ to beat that 73-9 Warriors. But later on down the road. I was saying 20 to 30 years from now but it could be 10 to 15 people will not care about that.

Side note not saying it would have gone this route but it could have happen. Once the league waived Chris Bosh contract due to his health. Miami could have gotten Blake Griffin with the extra cap space. And when it spiked up from 70 mil to 90 mil plus. They could have gotten Jimmy Butler. So do I like
Whiteside
Griffin
Lebron
Butler
Dragic
With Wade coming from the bench. And some nice vets. Not saying that they would have beat the Warriors with KD but they would have definitely have a better shot than the Cavs with Lebron and Love

LeonFSU
07-18-2019, 03:14 PM
Lebron lost a close six game series to Golden State in the 2015 Finals with Matthew Dellavedova as his second best player, whereas in Miami he would have had Dwyane Wade, Goran Dragic, and Hassan Whiteside as the next best players.



Is the part in bold for comedic effect?

mightybosstone
07-18-2019, 03:45 PM
All I know is that they had a Gasol deal on the table barring his decision. I can't speak for other Heat fans because Lord knows my fan sensibilities differ from many, but I trust Rileys ability to retool the team. History gives me every reason to believe so. Our roster then was aging though, and we would've had to do some dealing. I don't think we would've won the following year, but 2016? 2017? Perhaps. Not like it would've been hard to get other FAs to commit w/ LeBron around. Hell, we got Jimmy Butler here with no other stars and no cap space.

But again, LeBron had nothing to lose and everything to gain by just winning one in CLE, not to mention the good PR and organizational grasp he had. Even if he did win more rings here, they wouldn't have meant as much as the one he did win with the Cavs, not to say they would've meant nothing of course.....

I love a good "what if" conversation. I do. And if you add all of these players who weren't actually on the Heat and make a bunch of assumptions about how that franchise would have been run, you can 100% build a team in Miami in theory in those years after 2014 that would have been able to compete with the Warriors and win more titles than he won in Cleveland.

But if there's one thing I've learned in my 25+ years watching sports, it's that an actual win is always better than a hypothetical win. Winning a title in ANY year is really, really hard, even for Lebron James. But you throw in the challenge of playing in the same era as a historically dominant team like the Warriors in 2015-19, and that challenge kicks up a few notches.

So unless a team on paper is 100% obviously better than Cleveland, why would I take a hypothetical roster that doesn't exist and was facing major roster challenges over the one guaranteed title that Cleveland already won in the Warriors era of dominance?

The following statements are fairly factual, and I'm not sure how you dispute them:
1. Wade was not the same player he was two years prior and was no longer the elite player capable of being a No. 1 or No. 2 on a consistently contending team.
2. Bosh was on the bench the second half of the next two seasons, and his career was over after that.
3. Not only would Bosh have not likely been available for those two postseasons, but his contract was huge and would have made signing another true star really, really hard.
4. Battier and Allen both retired after that season, killing a lot of their depth and taking away two of their key rotational pieces.
5. Pau was not on the roster, and there's no way to know that he would have signed with Miami had Lebron come back.
6. Even if Pau HAD signed to play for Miami add a huge discount, he only played two more quality of seasons of basketball before trailing off pretty dramatically. So the Heat's window with that core would have been no better than two years.
7. Kyrie was a vastly superior player than anyone who played for the Heat after Lebron left.
8. Love may also have been better than any player on the Heat in that timespan.
9. The likelihood of Miami being able to add a player of Kyrie's caliber (or even Love's for that matter) in the five years since Lebron left is pretty damn low.

So take all of those things and measure that against "the Heat were probably going to get Pau and Riley probably would have added other pieces to make the Heat better." Logically, do you think it's especially realistic to think Miami would have won at least two rings in the next five years if Lebron stays in an era with a team as dominant as the Warriors?

I just don't know how you answer "yes" to that question without a pretty massive leap of faith that completely throws logic or reason out the window.

Saddletramp
07-18-2019, 03:50 PM
^ Huh? No clue what point you're trying to make here. Care to elaborate?

His point is, he doesn’t like Lebron so he likes to take shots at him. In true Knocks fashion, though, he missed. 🤠

valade16
07-18-2019, 03:52 PM
just so I am clear there roster if LBJ would have stayed would have been

Dragic/Wade/LBJ/Bosh/Pau with Whiteside/Haslem off the bench? Then you would have had the vet FA's sign minimum deals to follow LBJ

compared to the previous season

Chalmers/Wade/Battier/LBJ/Bosh with Ray Allen/Haslem/Rashard Lewis off the bench

if that above lineup is true, Miami would have been better and probably better than the LBJ return to Cleveland. I can see why some HEAT fans think he would have won more titles

I agree that LBJ going to CLE and winning helped changed his perception around all fans including casuals, but I also agree that 10-15 years from now no one is going to remember or care. Kind of like how no one cares that Jordan couldnt get out of the first round without Scottie. People always forget and dont want to hear the details on how someone won how someone failed, especially one who is in high regard

It would only have been that roster if every possibility resulted in a positive outcome for the Heat. That is highly unlikely.

Saddletramp
07-18-2019, 04:09 PM
I keep seeing Jericho say that they could replace Bosh’s contract with someone else but he didn’t officially retire until the summer of 2017. Also, that theory also totally doesn’t include Lebron’s contract which would have been just as much if not more than Bosh’s. And I think the Heat were over the cap every year anyway after LeBron left (and yes, they probably never sign guys like Luol Deng If LeBron doesn’t leave but Riley wasn’t attracting next level players without Lebron and WITH LeBron, they wouldn’t be able to afford guys like Blake, who’s name Jericho threw out like it was possible to get him). So no, stop that hypothetical.


Also, if Kyrie and Love don’t get injured, they probably beat GS in ‘15.

Chronz
07-18-2019, 04:17 PM
Some players would want to come back the way the Spurs did and kick some *** instead running to another ready made spot and then repeating again and again. He is a self absorbed entitled ***** that got his *** handed to him the finals and then left his team hanging

The Spurs themselves wanted to quit and get rid of their stars when it looked as tho they were done winning, luckily nobody wanted to give them **** and they were forced to run it back while adding a prospect that people are comparing to MJ today. LMFAO, stop lying

Rivera
07-18-2019, 04:21 PM
It would only have been that roster if every possibility resulted in a positive outcome for the Heat. That is highly unlikely.

i mean we really dont know that? we are both assuming here, and with LBJ back in the fold does Bosh still have blood clots? Or when Bosh works out with LBJ, or on the floor LBJ takes pressure off Bosh does that help Boshes help? (I am no medical expert so excuse my ignorance on that, he could still have had the blood clots, i dont know how any of that works, so again, im sorry for my ignorance regarding Bosh medical situation)

I know for a fact looking at the rosters, the HEAT have much better permiter defenders than that Cavs team, while the Cavs had better shooting (depending on which vets sign for the minimum in Miami)

Mind you, to me at least, the best version of LBJ I have seen was his years on his return to Cleveland, very complete ball player, much better jump shot.

Its hard to project Miamis bench mainly because I dont know which vets sign for the minimum because you know they would have if Bron went back. A chance to win a chip + South Beach + no state taxes.

Thats where I have difficulty, is who are the back up guards, can they defend a little bit and can they shoot.

I think based off the roster I posted plus Clevelands roster, Miami would have the better defense while the Cavs had the better offense

Vee-Rex
07-18-2019, 04:47 PM
I think based off the roster I posted plus Clevelands roster, Miami would have the better defense while the Cavs had the better offense

I could see Miami winning another chip or two if LeBron had stayed, especially in 2015. But there are no guarantees at all. There's just too many factors.

You guys are looking at dudes like Whiteside/Gasol and thinking Miami is winning but these are the type of bigs that Steph torches all day and night in the PnR. It took a dude like TT to be able to dominate the glass, run up and down the court, and lock down the perimeter on the switch in order to barely beat the Warriors in 2016. GS was a juggernaut of a fast-paced 3-point shooting team that annihilated traditional bigs on the opponents with their style.

And by the time GS got Durant you might as well chalk it up. I don't see any iteration of a Miami team beating them even if re-tooled. But that's just my opinion.

mightybosstone
07-18-2019, 04:50 PM
Random thing worth pointing out, but why do people keep referencing Udonis Haslem like he was a relevant piece by 2014? He wasn't. He averaged like 16 minutes a game that 2014-15 season over 62 games and then played less than 500 minutes the rest of his career over the next four seasons. Dude was done by the time Lebron left, and he'd been done a while as a legitimate rotational player worth touting. Let's not act like Miami had prime Haslem in 2014.

mightybosstone
07-18-2019, 05:00 PM
I could see Miami winning another chip or two if LeBron had stayed, especially in 2015. But there are no guarantees at all. There's just too many factors.

You guys are looking at dudes like Whiteside/Gasol and thinking Miami is winning but these are the type of bigs that Steph torches all day and night in the PnR. It took a dude like TT to be able to dominate the glass, run up and down the court, and lock down the perimeter on the switch in order to barely beat the Warriors in 2016. GS was a juggernaut of a fast-paced 3-point shooting team that annihilated traditional bigs on the opponents with their style.

And by the time GS got Durant you might as well chalk it up. I don't see any iteration of a Miami team beating them even if re-tooled. But that's just my opinion.

People drastically underrate Thompson's impact against a team like Golden State. Having a big who could switch on the perimeter is so critical to beating them. It's why Capela was so unplayable at times the last two series against them and why some teams just naturally struggled against them so much. It's also how he ended up earning that huge contract (that, plus a little help from Lebron).

It's worth noting that in the 16-17 series against Golden State, Gasol only played 18.9 minutes per game with the Spurs compared to the 25.4 minutes he played per game in the regular season. I didn't watch that series so it's hard for me to judge, but I've got to think his inability to defend while on the floor played a huge impact on his limited minutes—considering that team wasn't exactly stacked in terms of talent and Kawhi got hurt early on, you'd think he would have played more minutes than that.

That series was only two years later than his first postseason with Miami would have been in this hypothetical.

Dade County
07-18-2019, 06:01 PM
PSD posters, help me settle a little dispute between myself and a certain unnamed PSD poster you can probably all guess without putting too much thought into it. Did Lebron make the right decision to leave Miami to return to Cleveland?

It was the worst decision he ever made. The man went back to an organization that wasn't forward thinkers. He ended up being 1-3 in the final's.

Pat would have surround Lbj with ring chasers & he would have been ready for GS. I believe Pat would have set it up to even go after KD.

If Lbj would be honest he would let the world know too, but he can't do that. I remember TMac on the Jump talking about ifd Lbj would have stayed, he would have more championships. Other players have stated the same.

Lbj though he could do it on his own (run a team), but he didn't factor in KD going to GS (Lbj needed more time under Pat). Lbj let the haters get to him, so the haters that hated his decision will always say, that it was good for him to go back; but these people are insane.

Because if Lbj had 2 more rings, does people couldn't have said anything.



Would he have won more rings had he stayed in Miami, and would it have benefited his legacy to stay with the Heat rather than return home and win a wing in his home metro?

This nonsense was created by the media. Lbj hurt his legacy. Curry & Lbj have the same amount of rings. Lbj would have gotten 2 more rings for sure by now.

& since Lbj is still playing, who knows how much more rings he would have. FL no state tax & pat getting ring chasers.




Or did winning a ring in Cleveland and everything that's happened since he left the Heat ultimately justify his decision to leave Miami?

Feel free to discuss, and I look forward to your responses.

Only Lbj haters can bring up this 1 ring nonsense. & only Cleveland fans can feel this way because he won it for them.

But do people walk around saying, Lbj has 1 ring, or do they say 3 rings? This is madness LMAO



He had to go back to Cleveland. One ring there was worth three or four anywhere else.

So in 10 to 20 years, are people going to be walking around saying Lbj got 3 to 4 rings with the Cavs? Or are they going to be saying, Lbj just won 1 ring with the Cavs and erase the Miami HEAT rings?

This craziness was made up by the media and his haters, to create some kind of feel good story.

Does Kobe say he has 2 rings because he won them with out Shaq? Or does he through up his hand and repeats over and over that he has 5 rings?




Sort of like the equivalent of winning for the Knicks would be for anyone else. That championship, especially with the comeback and against the 73-win team, just matters more. He wasn't gonna win more titles with the Heat as they were constructed, but even if he had, it just wouldn't have meant as much.

To who??? You?

LMAO

Dade County
07-18-2019, 06:04 PM
He’s still going to win one more :win:

Yes he will. Maybe even 2 more.

jericho
07-18-2019, 06:09 PM
I keep seeing Jericho say that they could replace Bosh’s contract with someone else but he didn’t officially retire until the summer of 2017. Also, that theory also totally doesn’t include Lebron’s contract which would have been just as much if not more than Bosh’s. And I think the Heat were over the cap every year anyway after LeBron left (and yes, they probably never sign guys like Luol Deng If LeBron doesn’t leave but Riley wasn’t attracting next level players without Lebron and WITH LeBron, they wouldn’t be able to afford guys like Blake, who’s name Jericho threw out like it was possible to get him). So no, stop that hypothetical.


Also, if Kyrie and Love don’t get injured, they probably beat GS in ‘15.

Yup my bad I due realize that now with the bron and Bosh contract. But question tho. Doesn't the NBA provide some type of waiver for when a player cant perform his contractual obligations due to health? I'm not sure on that and I was using that as my basis for the argument.

Saddletramp
07-18-2019, 06:30 PM
Yup my bad I due realize that now with the bron and Bosh contract. But question tho. Doesn't the NBA provide some type of waiver for when a player cant perform his contractual obligations due to health? I'm not sure on that and I was using that as my basis for the argument.

If the player hasn’t played for a year then his contract isn’t toward the salary cap, I think. They still get paid, though, probably thru insurance. But he was still on the books and not competing regularly for a year or so and was dead money on the cap.


In 14/15, he played 43ish games and none in the playoffs. In 15/16, he played 53ish and none in the playoffs. Not even sure if the Heat went to the playoffs those years. He missed the entire 16/17 season but was still on the books with his $20+ million contract. So that’s three years where he played half the games of the first two, none in the third and wasn’t available for any playoff runs. That woulda been a huge detriment.

Saddletramp
07-18-2019, 06:42 PM
i mean we really dont know that? we are both assuming here, and with LBJ back in the fold does Bosh still have blood clots? Or when Bosh works out with LBJ, or on the floor LBJ takes pressure off Bosh does that help Boshes help? (I am no medical expert so excuse my ignorance on that, he could still have had the blood clots, i dont know how any of that works, so again, im sorry for my ignorance regarding Bosh medical situation)

I know for a fact looking at the rosters, the HEAT have much better permiter defenders than that Cavs team, while the Cavs had better shooting (depending on which vets sign for the minimum in Miami)

Mind you, to me at least, the best version of LBJ I have seen was his years on his return to Cleveland, very complete ball player, much better jump shot.

Its hard to project Miamis bench mainly because I dont know which vets sign for the minimum because you know they would have if Bron went back. A chance to win a chip + South Beach + no state taxes.

Thats where I have difficulty, is who are the back up guards, can they defend a little bit and can they shoot.

I think based off the roster I posted plus Clevelands roster, Miami would have the better defense while the Cavs had the better offense

That’s not how blood clots work. And again, Bosh isn’t playing, Lebron would be taking up a huge chunk of cap space that went to others and players aren’t worried too much about state income tax if they’re already taking such a huge discount to play on a good team. Could be a factor when the yearly rate is in the high 7 debits and higher but not really when you’re ring chasing for the minimum.

IndyRealist
07-18-2019, 07:50 PM
If the player hasn’t played for a year then his contract isn’t toward the salary cap, I think. They still get paid, though, probably thru insurance. But he was still on the books and not competing regularly for a year or so and was dead money on the cap.


In 14/15, he played 43ish games and none in the playoffs. In 15/16, he played 53ish and none in the playoffs. Not even sure if the Heat went to the playoffs those years. He missed the entire 16/17 season but was still on the books with his $20+ million contract. So that’s three years where he played half the games of the first two, none in the third and wasn’t available for any playoff runs. That woulda been a huge detriment.

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q71

71. Do injured players apply to team salary?
Injured players are included in team salary. An exception is made for players who are forced to retire for medical reasons -- see question number 61 for details.

In certain cases, teams can gain an exception which allows them to exceed the cap to sign a replacement. See question number 25 for more information on the Disabled Player exception.
http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q25

DISABLED PLAYER EXCEPTION -- This exception allows a team which is over the cap to replace a disabled player who will be out for the remainder of that season (it can also be granted in the event of a player's death). This exception is granted by the league, based on an application from the team and a determination by an NBA-designated physician or Fitness to Play panel (see question number 62) that the player is substantially more likely than not to be unable to play through the following June 15.

If this exception is granted, the team can acquire one player via free agent signing, trade or waiver claim, to replace the disabled player:

The team may sign a free agent for one season only, for 50% of the disabled player's salary or the amount of the Non-Taxpayer Mid-Level exception, whichever is less.
The team may trade for a player in the last season of his contract only (including any option years)2, who is making no more than 50% plus $100,000 of the disabled player's salary, or the amount of the Non-Taxpayer Mid-Level exception plus $100,000, whichever is less.
The team may claim a player on waivers who is in the last season of his contract only (including any option years), who is making no more than 50% of the disabled player's salary, or the amount of the Non-Taxpayer Mid-Level exception, whichever is less.
Teams can apply for this exception from July 1 through January 15, and cannot apply after January 15. Once granted, the exception expires when a player is acquired, when the disabled player is traded or returns to the team, or on March 10 of that season, whichever comes first. This exception is granted on a season-by-season basis -- if the player will also be out the following season, the team needs to apply for this exception again the following season.

jericho
07-18-2019, 08:22 PM
http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q71

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q25

Well there goes my theory

ewing
07-18-2019, 10:41 PM
The Spurs themselves wanted to quit and get rid of their stars when it looked as tho they were done winning, luckily nobody wanted to give them **** and they were forced to run it back while adding a prospect that people are comparing to MJ today. LMFAO, stop lying

BS there were zero rumors of any of the actual players freaking and wanting to run bc they might actually not be favorited to win it all the next year. LeBron is a ***** he promised a boat load of championship and ran at the first sign of trouble. Not my fault he’s a puss


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Chronz
07-18-2019, 10:51 PM
BS there were zero rumors of any of the actual players freaking and wanting to run bc they might actually not be favorited to win it all the next year. LeBron is a ***** he promised a boat load of championship and ran at the first sign of trouble. Not my fault he’s a puss


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Its true, ask Tony Parker himself and how he was almost traded. Bron has always strived for chips, even when he was a rook he was asking why not them. that doesn't make him a *****, it makes you obtuse. Again, the SPURS THEMSELVES, tried to trade their guys and were forced to run it back, then landed another franchise guy to revive them. Bron would never leave if his franchise kept drafting franchise guys lmfao

ewing
07-18-2019, 11:02 PM
Its true, ask Tony Parker himself and how he was almost traded. Bron has always strived for chips, even when he was a rook he was asking why not them. that doesn't make him a *****, it makes you obtuse. Again, the SPURS THEMSELVES, tried to trade their guys and were forced to run it back, then landed another franchise guy to revive them. Bron would never leave if his franchise kept drafting franchise guys lmfao

I lost Tony’s #


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Chronz
07-19-2019, 12:46 AM
I lost Tony’s #


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Just google tony parker thinks the spurs are done contending you Knickerbocker. It was literally your team that almost had him ffs

IKnowHoops
07-19-2019, 01:30 AM
Random thing worth pointing out, but why do people keep referencing Udonis Haslem like he was a relevant piece by 2014? He wasn't. He averaged like 16 minutes a game that 2014-15 season over 62 games and then played less than 500 minutes the rest of his career over the next four seasons. Dude was done by the time Lebron left, and he'd been done a while as a legitimate rotational player worth touting. Let's not act like Miami had prime Haslem in 2014.

Udonis was absolute trash the day Bron arrived

IKnowHoops
07-19-2019, 01:34 AM
BS there were zero rumors of any of the actual players freaking and wanting to run bc they might actually not be favorited to win it all the next year. LeBron is a ***** he promised a boat load of championship and ran at the first sign of trouble. Not my fault he’s a puss


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You are not a happy person

ewing
07-19-2019, 05:55 AM
Just google tony parker thinks the spurs are done contending you Knickerbocker. It was literally your team that almost had him ffs

Tony Parker wasn’t looking to run to the Knicks and stop telling me what to do! Your not my Mom


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ewing
07-19-2019, 08:12 AM
You are not a happy person

I appreciate your candor

unleashthebeast
07-19-2019, 09:18 AM
Udonis was absolute trash the day Bron arrived

When he got to Miami? Lol. Did you watch basketball back then?

Hawkeye15
07-19-2019, 02:09 PM
CLE won a title, so it's really easy to say that yeah he made the right decision. Had the league not suspended Draymond and the Warriors not been injured, we'd be singing a different tune.

But hey, in the end he won CLE a title, and it added significantly to his legacy. Can't deny the result.

exactly my answer

IKnowHoops
07-19-2019, 02:28 PM
When he got to Miami? Lol. Did you watch basketball back then?

What was his stat line that first year?

9/8
12.7 per
-.1 Vorp

Garbage

unleashthebeast
07-19-2019, 03:01 PM
What was his stat line that first year?

9/8
12.7 per
-.1 Vorp

Garbage

You realized he was injured that entire year and played 13 games before returning during the Bulls series, right?

ewing
07-19-2019, 03:25 PM
You realized he was injured that entire year and played 13 games before returning during the Bulls series, right?

Don't question him. He knows hoops

cmellofan15
07-19-2019, 03:35 PM
You realized he was injured that entire year and played 13 games before returning during the Bulls series, right?

Doesn't that just reinforce the sentiment that he wasn't performing....? And he was virtually the same the year before lol

unleashthebeast
07-19-2019, 04:10 PM
Doesn't that just reinforce the sentiment that he wasn't performing....? And he was virtually the same the year before lol

A guy being injured is very different than a guy not performing lol.

And maybe he doesn't understand what Udonis actually did as a basketball player? He wasn't a big scorer. Udonis made hustle plays, was a good rebounder, very good defender, and could hit a consistent midrange jumper at a time where not many bigs would do that. So no, he didn't put up gaudy numbers. There were plenty of times though in those first two big 3 years where he was the third best player on the court for Miami, when Bosh wouldn't show up.

Pierzynski4Prez
07-19-2019, 06:12 PM
A guy being injured is very different than a guy not performing lol.

And maybe he doesn't understand what Udonis actually did as a basketball player? He wasn't a big scorer. Udonis made hustle plays, was a good rebounder, very good defender, and could hit a consistent midrange jumper at a time where not many bigs would do that. So no, he didn't put up gaudy numbers. There were plenty of times though in those first two big 3 years where he was the third best player on the court for Miami, when Bosh wouldn't show up.

Coming from a Bulls fan, Haslem was an awesome glue guy who did the little things. Perfect for that team. Got under the skin of opponents too.


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IKnowHoops
07-19-2019, 09:57 PM
You realized he was injured that entire year and played 13 games before returning during the Bulls series, right?

Which means he was trash. That’s a trash season. If an injury caused him to be trash so be it. But he was trash, and his stats went down from there. What are we debating?

IKnowHoops
07-19-2019, 10:16 PM
Coming from a Bulls fan, Haslem was an awesome glue guy who did the little things. Perfect for that team. Got under the skin of opponents too.


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Meta World Peace, Trevor Ariza, Iggy, when I think of “good” glue guys. Harlem wasn’t awful his first couple years. But he was trash when Bron got there. For instance, someone who gets crapped on a lot for not being good is Tristan Thompson...he was waaaaaaaaay better than Haslem was when he was with Bron. Haslem was garbage at that time.

suffer2peace
07-19-2019, 10:18 PM
If Lebron can win it with one star instead of 2, then it would be more impressive when he had Kyrie/Love and Wade/Bosh in his championship years. Even though I do give him credit for his big 3 team beating your big 3 team. Lebron legacy is still missing something, if he wins a ring with the Lakers, who do have a talent to make a run, then he will even evolve more with his legacy with how he will be viewed by a wider audience.

AllBall
07-19-2019, 10:57 PM
There's a lot of revisionist history going on in this thread.

1. Whiteside would have never played with Lebron. The Heat were in searching mode after Lebron left and they were looking deeper than before and that is how they came across Whiteside. They would not have found him if Lebron would have stayed. Miami is a lot better at scouting and development because of it now though.

2. Bosh would have left to Houston if Lebron would have stayed. So who the heck knows how that would have played out if it Bosh was in the West, it's the butterfly effect that would have happened how teams ended up being structured in the West. With just Lebron and Wade and an empty max spot available, maybe it would have been given to Wade instead and he never would have left either.

3. Yes, there was a injured player exception given for Bosh, it didn't count against Miami, they could maneuver as if it wasn't there, the insurance paid it. It was the NBA's independent doctors that gave the second and final opinion that granted all that.

unleashthebeast
07-20-2019, 01:02 PM
Which means he was trash. That’s a trash season. If an injury caused him to be trash so be it. But he was trash, and his stats went down from there. What are we debating?

Don’t know if you’re trolling or if you’re actually not able to differentiate injuries from ability? lol. Paul George when he came back from injury was bad, I guess he was just trash then and not working his way back to normal? Lol so stupid

cmellofan15
07-20-2019, 10:30 PM
Don’t know if you’re trolling or if you’re actually not able to differentiate injuries from ability? lol. Paul George when he came back from injury was bad, I guess he was just trash then and not working his way back to normal? Lol so stupid

Udonis came back virtually the same as when he left and you're comparing him to Paul George......? Hahahahahahahahaha

Dade County
07-20-2019, 11:56 PM
Just in case I'm not arguing that the 1 title in Cleveland means more than a few more titles in Miami. I agree with that. My point is that fans later on are not going to care about that. Just us that lived it and witnessed it.

I don't care about it. The move cost him rings. It killed his chances at greatest ever do to his win percentage in the Final's. But he is still one of the greats.

IKnowHoops
07-21-2019, 08:40 PM
Don’t know if you’re trolling or if you’re actually not able to differentiate injuries from ability? lol. Paul George when he came back from injury was bad, I guess he was just trash then and not working his way back to normal? Lol so stupid

Lol, when you compare a superstar to Haslem...

Did Haslem ever become a 1st team nba player after the injury?

Are you serious with this comparison?


What did Haslem return to?

You just said PG was bad after the injury...you do realize that if he was bad, he was still waaaaay better than prime Haslem...so if he was “bad”. Being that he was still wasaaay better than Prime Haslem, that means that Haslem was not only trash when he played with Bron, but his whole career is trash.

Quinnsanity
07-21-2019, 10:02 PM
There's a lot of revisionist history going on in this thread.

1. Whiteside would have never played with Lebron. The Heat were in searching mode after Lebron left and they were looking deeper than before and that is how they came across Whiteside. They would not have found him if Lebron would have stayed. Miami is a lot better at scouting and development because of it now though.

2. Bosh would have left to Houston if Lebron would have stayed. So who the heck knows how that would have played out if it Bosh was in the West, it's the butterfly effect that would have happened how teams ended up being structured in the West. With just Lebron and Wade and an empty max spot available, maybe it would have been given to Wade instead and he never would have left either.

3. Yes, there was a injured player exception given for Bosh, it didn't count against Miami, they could maneuver as if it wasn't there, the insurance paid it. It was the NBA's independent doctors that gave the second and final opinion that granted all that.

I have never once seen a shred of evidence suggesting this is true. As I understand it, Bosh and Wade both wanted to stay, but both wanted to let LeBron's situation play out first. He went to Cleveland, Bosh was all set to go to the Rockets, but Riley swooped in at the last second with the five-year max and convinced him to stay. Can you provide some sourced information on this? Because as far as I'm concerned, if LeBron stays in Miami, he loses Bosh in that first season (but he also gets Dragic, as no components of that deal were greatly impacted by LeBron).

Quinnsanity
07-21-2019, 10:03 PM
I don't care about it. The move cost him rings. It killed his chances at greatest ever do to his win percentage in the Final's. But he is still one of the greats.

... So he was beating the Warriors, Durant or otherwise, with broken Wade and no Bosh? Huh?

TylerSL
07-21-2019, 10:51 PM
PSD's quote function is clearly broken, but I find it not that especially surprising that the only people supporting this idea that Lebron would have won more rings had he stayed in Miami are all Heat fans. You guys are basing this idea completely on speculation, hearsay and possibilities of things that never came to fruition and you have zero evidence to support.

Consider that in his four years in Miami after adding Bosh and Lebron, Riley made ZERO signings or trades for other legitimate star players. The closest thing you can say he came to that was adding a 33-year-old Shane Battier for three years and a 37-year-old Ray Allen for two years. That's not exactly the "star player" you're all assuming the Heat were going to add. And just because the Heat had a meeting with Pau in no way guarantees he would have signed with Miami—which inevitably would have been for a pretty big discount.

The Dragic deal and the development of Whiteside both would have made for nice additions, but ultimately do Dragic and Whiteside make that team better on paper than the prior teams with a healthy Bosh and a better Wade? No, I don't think it does. And I certainly don't think that team would have been better than a Cavs team with Kyrie and Love, who easily were better over Lebron's four years in Cleveland than any two players Miami had.

You guys are certainly welcome to disagree—that's your prerogative. But when you look around and realize that the only people on your side are fans of the same team, that's when you have to start questioning the legitimacy of your take. I'll admit I do it with the Rockets sometimes—we all have to recognize when we're being homers. I kinda think that's what's happening here.


1. OK, but they didn't have the potential to do so. As stated previously, with the extra cap they would have gotten for Bosh's clots and the cap explosion of 2016 they would have had available cap to sign someone. You don't think they would have?

2. It would have made them deeper. Dragic has averaged over 17 ppg and made an All Star appearance with the Heat while Whiteside averaged 15/12/3 on 59% shooting his first 3 seasons in Miami. I'm not sure how you can come to the conclusion they wouldn't have been better. Especially considering how cap space would have been available to them.

3. Love was never better than Bosh, Bosh played defense.

The Heat teams of 2010-11, 11-12, and 12-13 are still the three best teams Lebron's ever played on. While Kyrie and Love won a ring with him, those Cavs teams were not as good as those Heat teams, Lebron was just better. Those Cavs teams had a better version of Lebron, who would have been in Miami had he stayed. So we're really only comparing the supporting casts of the teams, it's basically, Kyrie, Love, Korver, and trash vs Wade, Dragic, Whiteside, Allen, maybe Gasol, plus whoever they could have gotten with the cap available. I'll take the deeper Heat team to win the Finals in 2015 for sure, and probably 2016 too if Lebron played the way he did, which we all saw he did.

In my first post in this thread, I said that staying in Miami would have robbed him of the opportunity to end the Cleveland sports drought which is why I voted yes to the question, but at the same time it's likely he would have been more successful had he stayed. Given that his Cavs teams were always terrible at defense (because Kyrie/Love never played ANY defense) and super thin, it's pretty easy to make the case that had he stayed in Miami they would have been able to put a better roster around him than those Cavs teams. Take 2018 for example, he led the Kyrie-less Cavs to the Finals before leaving to LA, Cleveland brought the same team he just took to the Finals back in 18-19, and they went 19-63. The team he took to the Finals in 2018 couldn't even win 20 games without him.

Sure we don't know for sure that he would have had more success in Miami, this thread was literally created to speculate on the subject, but we do know that neither Kyrie nor Love have ever won anything in their careers without Lebron. In his first four years in the league, while Lebron was in Miami, Kyrie's Cavs had a combined record of 97-215 (.311%), the worst in the NBA in that span. Kyrie's tenure in Boston was an absolute failure as they were literally better without him. In his two years in Boston, their regular season record was 78-49 (.614%) with him and 26-11 (.703%) without him. In the playoffs they made it to Game 7 of the ECF without him, whereas they got beat in 5 games in the second round with him. As for Love, he has never had a winning record without Lebron James. The record of every team he's been on without Lebron James, T-Wolves from 2008-14 and Cavs in 18-19, have a combined record of 172-386 (.308%) Meanwhile, in the five years since Lebron left, while also considering Bosh's clots, Miami has had a combined record of 209-201 (.510%).

Lebron is so great that he carries bad teams to the Finals. Put Lebron on .300 team, with players who have never won without him, and he can drag them to the Finals in the East. We saw it in both his tenures in Cleveland. Put peak Lebron, 2015-18 Lebron>2011-2014 Lebron, on a .500 team with multiple NBA champs and he would have a better chance at winning. It's not only not blind homer-ism to believe that Miami could have been able to win championships had Lebron stayed, it's a valid argument.

IKnowHoops
07-22-2019, 12:10 AM
1. OK, but they didn't have the potential to do so. As stated previously, with the extra cap they would have gotten for Bosh's clots and the cap explosion of 2016 they would have had available cap to sign someone. You don't think they would have?

2. It would have made them deeper. Dragic has averaged over 17 ppg and made an All Star appearance with the Heat while Whiteside averaged 15/12/3 on 59% shooting his first 3 seasons in Miami. I'm not sure how you can come to the conclusion they wouldn't have been better. Especially considering how cap space would have been available to them.

3. Love was never better than Bosh, Bosh played defense.

The Heat teams of 2010-11, 11-12, and 12-13 are still the three best teams Lebron's ever played on. While Kyrie and Love won a ring with him, those Cavs teams were not as good as those Heat teams, Lebron was just better. Those Cavs teams had a better version of Lebron, who would have been in Miami had he stayed. So we're really only comparing the supporting casts of the teams, it's basically, Kyrie, Love, Korver, and trash vs Wade, Dragic, Whiteside, Allen, maybe Gasol, plus whoever they could have gotten with the cap available. I'll take the deeper Heat team to win the Finals in 2015 for sure, and probably 2016 too if Lebron played the way he did, which we all saw he did.

In my first post in this thread, I said that staying in Miami would have robbed him of the opportunity to end the Cleveland sports drought which is why I voted yes to the question, but at the same time it's likely he would have been more successful had he stayed. Given that his Cavs teams were always terrible at defense (because Kyrie/Love never played ANY defense) and super thin, it's pretty easy to make the case that had he stayed in Miami they would have been able to put a better roster around him than those Cavs teams. Take 2018 for example, he led the Kyrie-less Cavs to the Finals before leaving to LA, Cleveland brought the same team he just took to the Finals back in 18-19, and they went 19-63. The team he took to the Finals in 2018 couldn't even win 20 games without him.

Sure we don't know for sure that he would have had more success in Miami, this thread was literally created to speculate on the subject, but we do know that neither Kyrie nor Love have ever won anything in their careers without Lebron. In his first four years in the league, while Lebron was in Miami, Kyrie's Cavs had a combined record of 97-215 (.311%), the worst in the NBA in that span. Kyrie's tenure in Boston was an absolute failure, they were literally better without him. Love has never had a winning record without Lebron James, every team he's been on without Lebron James, T-Wolves 2008-14; Cavs in 18-19, have a combined record of 172-386 (.308%) Meanwhile, in the five years since Lebron left, and with Bosh's clots, Miami has had a combined record of 209-201 (.510%).

Lebron is so great that he carries bad teams to the Finals. Put Lebron on .300 team, with players who have never won without him, and he can drag them to the Finals in the East. We saw it in both his tenures in Cleveland. Put peak Lebron, 2015-18 Lebron>2011-2014 Lebron, on a .500 team with multiple NBA champs and he would have a better chance at winning. It's not only not blind homer-ism to believe that Miami would have been able to win championships had Lebron stayed, it's a valid argument.

Without arguing about who was better between Love and Bosh, I will say that Love didn’t disappear like Bosh, also Live’s 3 ball was so good that he was a better fit and a more productive player next to Bron than Bosh was. Prime for prime, it’s close. Love was a better rebounder. Bosh a better defender. Love would put up 30/20 in his Prime like it was nothing

AllBall
07-22-2019, 12:37 AM
I have never once seen a shred of evidence suggesting this is true. As I understand it, Bosh and Wade both wanted to stay, but both wanted to let LeBron's situation play out first. He went to Cleveland, Bosh was all set to go to the Rockets, but Riley swooped in at the last second with the five-year max and convinced him to stay. Can you provide some sourced information on this? Because as far as I'm concerned, if LeBron stays in Miami, he loses Bosh in that first season (but he also gets Dragic, as no components of that deal were greatly impacted by LeBron).

Bosh wanted a max and the Heat were not going to give him that. I'm not going to bother looking up 5 year old articles, radio shows, etc. Remember they were cutting down costs at the time to avoid the then new repeater tax put into place to spite the Heat. It was only offered to him because Lebron left to save face. Also, Heat would not have gone after Dragic if Lebron stayed. You are all making up imaginary scenarios that just would not have played out that way. Dragic was sought after by the Heat because at that point they were planning to aid Bosh and to an extent get insurance at the guard spot with Wade's then health (load management was unfathomable concept for the organization at this time :rolleyes:). Then the blood clots happened and that plan went sideways.

TylerSL
07-22-2019, 01:29 AM
Without arguing about who was better between Love and Bosh, I will say that Love didn’t disappear like Bosh, also Live’s 3 ball was so good that he was a better fit and a more productive player next to Bron than Bosh was. Prime for prime, it’s close. Love was a better rebounder. Bosh a better defender. Love would put up 30/20 in his Prime like it was nothing

I'm speaking just in terms of who was better with Lebron. With that in mind,

Chris Bosh's stats 2011-2014: 287 games played, 17.3 ppg, 7.4 rpg, 1.0 bpg, on .509/.315/.813 shooting.

Kevin Love's stats 2015-2018: 271 games played, 17.1 ppg, 10.0 rpg, .5 bpg, on .433/.377/.842 shooting.

Love was the better shooter and rebounder, but Bosh was a better playmaker, defender, and more efficient. Bosh could put the ball on the floor and attack the basket, defend the pick and roll, and defend underneath the basket, something Love always shied away from. In his entire stint with Lebron, 44% of all of Love's FGA were three pointers, meaning Love was basically a glorified 3 point shooter when Lebron was on the floor. All Love was doing was setting screens and jacking up open 3's with Lebron. It's also worth noting that Bosh shot .369% from three after Lebron left Miami. Bosh also missed fewer games as well. Keep in mind the 11-12 season was a 66 game season, so Bosh missed 25 games in four seasons where Love missed 57 games.

In the playoffs Bosh was better as well, as in more efficient and durable.

Bosh in playoffs-Played 78 of 87 playoff games (90%), 14.9 ppg, 7.3 rpg, 1.1 bpg, on .481/.406/.790 shooting

Love in playoffs-Played 63 of 81 playoff games (78%), 15.3 ppg, 9.7 rpg, 0.5 bpg, on .403/.404/.854 shooting

Both players were 3rd options behind two ball dominant wings, their usage was very similar with and without Lebron, and they played the same position. But Love's game shrunk drastically with Lebron, he became a glorified 3 point shooter, whereas Bosh re-invented his game. He became a very good pick and roll player and defender, things he wasn't known for prior. I'll take Bosh between the two any day.

TylerSL
07-22-2019, 01:43 AM
Bosh wanted a max and the Heat were not going to give him that. I'm not going to bother looking up 5 year old articles, radio shows, etc. Remember they were cutting down costs at the time to avoid the then new repeater tax put into place to spite the Heat. It was only offered to him because Lebron left to save face. Also, Heat would not have gone after Dragic if Lebron stayed. You are all making up imaginary scenarios that just would not have played out that way. Dragic was sought after by the Heat because at that point they were planning to aid Bosh and to an extent get insurance at the guard spot with Wade's then health (load management was unfathomable concept for the organization at this time :rolleyes:). Then the blood clots happened and that plan went sideways.

Fact, Riley was trying to get Kyle Lowry, a free agent in 2014, prior to Lebron leaving Miami

https://nba.nbcsports.com/2014/06/17/report-kyle-lowry-miami-heat-have-mutual-interest/

With Wade on the decline Riley probably understood the team needed to get another ball handler next to Lebron. It's not crazy to think they would have eventually looked at the trade market, saw Phoenix had 3 point guards in Isaiah Thomas, Bledsoe, and Dragic and go after one of them. Dragic was only making $7.5 million at the time, so it wouldn't have been super hard to match the salary. They were already looking for a ball handler.

Saddletramp
07-22-2019, 05:05 AM
1. OK, but they didn't have the potential to do so. As stated previously, with the extra cap they would have gotten for Bosh's clots and the cap explosion of 2016 they would have had available cap to sign someone. You don't think they would have?

2. It would have made them deeper. Dragic has averaged over 17 ppg and made an All Star appearance with the Heat while Whiteside averaged 15/12/3 on 59% shooting his first 3 seasons in Miami. I'm not sure how you can come to the conclusion they wouldn't have been better. Especially considering how cap space would have been available to them.

3. Love was never better than Bosh, Bosh played defense.

The Heat teams of 2010-11, 11-12, and 12-13 are still the three best teams Lebron's ever played on. While Kyrie and Love won a ring with him, those Cavs teams were not as good as those Heat teams, Lebron was just better. Those Cavs teams had a better version of Lebron, who would have been in Miami had he stayed. So we're really only comparing the supporting casts of the teams, it's basically, Kyrie, Love, Korver, and trash vs Wade, Dragic, Whiteside, Allen, maybe Gasol, plus whoever they could have gotten with the cap available. I'll take the deeper Heat team to win the Finals in 2015 for sure, and probably 2016 too if Lebron played the way he did, which we all saw he did.

In my first post in this thread, I said that staying in Miami would have robbed him of the opportunity to end the Cleveland sports drought which is why I voted yes to the question, but at the same time it's likely he would have been more successful had he stayed. Given that his Cavs teams were always terrible at defense (because Kyrie/Love never played ANY defense) and super thin, it's pretty easy to make the case that had he stayed in Miami they would have been able to put a better roster around him than those Cavs teams. Take 2018 for example, he led the Kyrie-less Cavs to the Finals before leaving to LA, Cleveland brought the same team he just took to the Finals back in 18-19, and they went 19-63. The team he took to the Finals in 2018 couldn't even win 20 games without him.

Sure we don't know for sure that he would have had more success in Miami, this thread was literally created to speculate on the subject, but we do know that neither Kyrie nor Love have ever won anything in their careers without Lebron. In his first four years in the league, while Lebron was in Miami, Kyrie's Cavs had a combined record of 97-215 (.311%), the worst in the NBA in that span. Kyrie's tenure in Boston was an absolute failure as they were literally better without him. In his two years in Boston, their regular season record was 78-49 (.614%) with him and 26-11 (.703%) without him. In the playoffs they made it to Game 7 of the ECF without him, whereas they got beat in 5 games in the second round with him. As for Love, he has never had a winning record without Lebron James. The record of every team he's been on without Lebron James, T-Wolves from 2008-14 and Cavs in 18-19, have a combined record of 172-386 (.308%) Meanwhile, in the five years since Lebron left, while also considering Bosh's clots, Miami has had a combined record of 209-201 (.510%).

Lebron is so great that he carries bad teams to the Finals. Put Lebron on .300 team, with players who have never won without him, and he can drag them to the Finals in the East. We saw it in both his tenures in Cleveland. Put peak Lebron, 2015-18 Lebron>2011-2014 Lebron, on a .500 team with multiple NBA champs and he would have a better chance at winning. It's not only not blind homer-ism to believe that Miami could have been able to win championships had Lebron stayed, it's a valid argument.

Again, Bosh only played half seasons and no playoffs after Lebron left (AllBall up there says they weren’t going to give Bosh an extension, so he might’ve left anyway). His contract was also on the books until the summer of 2017. So IF they would have kept Bosh, he would have been a net negative. Wade was already declining. They were also over the cap.every year and that’s without adding Lebron’s probably max or near it. And when they got the extra cap room in ‘16, Whiteside’s big *** contract came into effect. Even if they still get Dragic, it wouldn’t be enough.

Their moves would have obviously changed but I don’t see them not giving Wade/Bosh contracts to run it back with LeBron, and that would have burned them.

More-Than-Most
07-22-2019, 05:49 AM
Bosh and wade were on the decline and lebron carried that as far as he could... move on... yes him leaving the heat was best.

AllBall
07-22-2019, 08:07 AM
Again, Bosh only played half seasons and no playoffs after Lebron left (AllBall up there says they weren’t going to give Bosh an extension, so he might’ve left anyway). His contract was also on the books until the summer of 2017. So IF they would have kept Bosh, he would have been a net negative. Wade was already declining. They were also over the cap.every year and that’s without adding Lebron’s probably max or near it. And when they got the extra cap room in ‘16, Whiteside’s big *** contract came into effect. Even if they still get Dragic, it wouldn’t be enough.

Their moves would have obviously changed but I don’t see them not giving Wade/Bosh contracts to run it back with LeBron, and that would have burned them.

They wouldn't have gotten Whiteside either. See top post on page. Players that would have better complimented Lebron would have been picked up. You can't assume that the players they picked up after he left would have been the same as if he stayed.

kdspurman
07-22-2019, 10:06 AM
The Spurs themselves wanted to quit and get rid of their stars when it looked as tho they were done winning, luckily nobody wanted to give them **** and they were forced to run it back while adding a prospect that people are comparing to MJ today. LMFAO, stop lying

Which year you talking about with this one Chronz? :laugh2:

unleashthebeast
07-22-2019, 10:36 AM
Lol, when you compare a superstar to Haslem...

Did Haslem ever become a 1st team nba player after the injury?

Are you serious with this comparison?


What did Haslem return to?

You just said PG was bad after the injury...you do realize that if he was bad, he was still waaaaay better than prime Haslem...so if he was “bad”. Being that he was still wasaaay better than Prime Haslem, that means that Haslem was not only trash when he played with Bron, but his whole career is trash.

Ok you've now made it clear that it was just a dumb troll job. Thanks for the clarification

Rivera
07-22-2019, 11:24 AM
did IKH call a role player trash who exactly fills his role on the team? :laugh2:

i didnt know one person said Haslem was an all star caliber player. Dude was just a solid role player and a hustler. Dude has been the soul of the Heat for years. Every team would love to have a Haslem, go in there, do the dirty work, be a leader and a great teammate without needing the stats for satisfaction.

Haslem is who he is. A role player who was a hustler, a defender, someone who can hit the midrange J and a hell of a teammate. If thats trash, then we need to re-assess are definition of trash.

You know who is trash? Andrew Wiggins

Give me prime UD on my team over Andrew Wiggins

mightybosstone
07-22-2019, 11:50 AM
did IKH call a role player trash who exactly fills his role on the team? :laugh2:

i didnt know one person said Haslem was an all star caliber player. Dude was just a solid role player and a hustler. Dude has been the soul of the Heat for years. Every team would love to have a Haslem, go in there, do the dirty work, be a leader and a great teammate without needing the stats for satisfaction.

Haslem is who he is. A role player who was a hustler, a defender, someone who can hit the midrange J and a hell of a teammate. If thats trash, then we need to re-assess are definition of trash.

You know who is trash? Andrew Wiggins

Give me prime UD on my team over Andrew Wiggins

I was the one who brought up Haslem because I'd seen a few people mention him as a key piece of a potential Lebron team in 2015 had he stayed. I brought it up because Haslem was a fossil at that point who had only one more remotely competent season in his career before basically being the "random end of the bench guy who's somehow still cashing an NBA paycheck" the next few years.

I agree that prime Haslem was a solid piece, and he was pretty integral to that Heat team at times, although he was far more important to the 2006 run than he was the Lebron titles. But I'm not sure Lebron ever really played with prime Haslem, and he certainly wouldn't have benefited from prime Haslem in 2015.

mightybosstone
07-22-2019, 11:59 AM
I'm speaking just in terms of who was better with Lebron. With that in mind,

Chris Bosh's stats 2011-2014: 287 games played, 17.3 ppg, 7.4 rpg, 1.0 bpg, on .509/.315/.813 shooting.

Kevin Love's stats 2015-2018: 271 games played, 17.1 ppg, 10.0 rpg, .5 bpg, on .433/.377/.842 shooting.

Love was the better shooter and rebounder, but Bosh was a better playmaker, defender, and more efficient. Bosh could put the ball on the floor and attack the basket, defend the pick and roll, and defend underneath the basket, something Love always shied away from. In his entire stint with Lebron, 44% of all of Love's FGA were three pointers, meaning Love was basically a glorified 3 point shooter when Lebron was on the floor. All Love was doing was setting screens and jacking up open 3's with Lebron. It's also worth noting that Bosh shot .369% from three after Lebron left Miami. Bosh also missed fewer games as well. Keep in mind the 11-12 season was a 66 game season, so Bosh missed 25 games in four seasons where Love missed 57 games.

In the playoffs Bosh was better as well, as in more efficient and durable.

Bosh in playoffs-Played 78 of 87 playoff games (90%), 14.9 ppg, 7.3 rpg, 1.1 bpg, on .481/.406/.790 shooting

Love in playoffs-Played 63 of 81 playoff games (78%), 15.3 ppg, 9.7 rpg, 0.5 bpg, on .403/.404/.854 shooting

Both players were 3rd options behind two ball dominant wings, their usage was very similar with and without Lebron, and they played the same position. But Love's game shrunk drastically with Lebron, he became a glorified 3 point shooter, whereas Bosh re-invented his game. He became a very good pick and roll player and defender, things he wasn't known for prior. I'll take Bosh between the two any day.

But you're missing a pretty huge talking point here, dude. Bosh would not have been on the team when those hypothetical Heat teams would have made their playoff runs, so while they would have benefited from some solid half-seasons with Bosh in 2015 and 2016, playoff Bosh doesn't exist in this hypothetical situation.

Even if Bosh is better than Love on paper (which is at least debatable), he ultimately is a non-factor in this scenario. In fact, his contract is a huge negative because of the massive amount of cap space it ate up over the next 4-5 years.

So, to your previous point in a prior post about whether this Miami team would have been deeper, I don't think it would have been. Bosh isn't there. Battier and Ray Allen are both gone. They probably could have replaced those guys with some solid veterans to play similar roles. But the team definitely wouldn't have been as talented at the top without Bosh, and therefore I'd argue they'd be less deep overall.

mightybosstone
07-22-2019, 12:00 PM
I'd like to point out that in the voting, at least 4 of the 5 "Nos" are Heat fans (not sure who Supreme is off the top of my head, but there's a strong chance he's a Miami guy as well). It's interesting to see a vote so obviously split between the rational fans and the homers.

Rivera
07-22-2019, 12:50 PM
I was the one who brought up Haslem because I'd seen a few people mention him as a key piece of a potential Lebron team in 2015 had he stayed. I brought it up because Haslem was a fossil at that point who had only one more remotely competent season in his career before basically being the "random end of the bench guy who's somehow still cashing an NBA paycheck" the next few years.

I agree that prime Haslem was a solid piece, and he was pretty integral to that Heat team at times, although he was far more important to the 2006 run than he was the Lebron titles. But I'm not sure Lebron ever really played with prime Haslem, and he certainly wouldn't have benefited from prime Haslem in 2015.

oh i had no issues with your post, yours was fair and honest, you did not call him trash. you just said at that point he was a fossil

just to continue the conversation, Haslems last solid year was the year they beat SAS in the finals. He was still useful those first 3 LBJ years mainly in the playoffs where they had saved him. He was still a useful playoff contributor then. He was a fossil in the regular season as he managed injuries and barely played, but come playoff time UD was there.

I do agree, he was wayyy more important in 2006 than any of LBJs titles

Chronz
07-22-2019, 02:46 PM
Which year you talking about with this one Chronz? :laugh2:

the year TP straight up said they were done winning and then nearly got dealt to the Knicks. Kawhi rescued you guys

kdspurman
07-22-2019, 03:07 PM
the year TP straight up said they were done winning and then nearly got dealt to the Knicks. Kawhi rescued you guys

Ah. You said get rid of their stars, I'm like... When did that happen? lol

Although here's another side of that for you. The Spurs knew what they were doing, by dangling TP in offers, it boosted George Hill's value who was ultimately dealt to Indy.

IKnowHoops
07-22-2019, 06:06 PM
Ok you've now made it clear that it was just a dumb troll job. Thanks for the clarification

Yes, I made it clear you were trolling when you insinuated Haslem wasn’t trash while being unable to provide any statistical evidence that he wasn’t.

Saddletramp
07-22-2019, 06:24 PM
They wouldn't have gotten Whiteside either. See top post on page. Players that would have better complimented Lebron would have been picked up. You can't assume that the players they picked up after he left would have been the same as if he stayed.

Yes, I’ve said as much about the other players but where does the money come from? After bringing in two titles, I doubt there’s more pay cuts for Lebron there and like MBT said, some of those older quality guys are gone.

Whiteside had bounced around a few years and finally “got” it, so he still mighta panned out. I think Luol Deng was brought in as Lebron’s replacement at $10ish million a year.....double that money for Lebron (while quadrupling the worth) and there’s not much money leftover for anyone else. Sure, some ring chasers probably go there but that’s not enough especially after having money tied up in a deteriorating Wade and an inconsequential Bosh. And Pau was potentially going to be brought in? That was the beginning of his end.


No doubt in any sane person’s mind: Lebron made the right move

unleashthebeast
07-22-2019, 06:29 PM
Yes, I made it clear you were trolling when you insinuated Haslem wasn’t trash while being unable to provide any statistical evidence that he wasn’t.

Do you understand the concept of role players? Or do you only watch the Olympic team and all star games

ewing
07-22-2019, 07:34 PM
Do you understand the concept of role players? Or do you only watch the Olympic team and all star games

He doesn’t watch basketball


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Quinnsanity
07-22-2019, 09:49 PM
Bosh wanted a max and the Heat were not going to give him that. I'm not going to bother looking up 5 year old articles, radio shows, etc. Remember they were cutting down costs at the time to avoid the then new repeater tax put into place to spite the Heat. It was only offered to him because Lebron left to save face. Also, Heat would not have gone after Dragic if Lebron stayed. You are all making up imaginary scenarios that just would not have played out that way. Dragic was sought after by the Heat because at that point they were planning to aid Bosh and to an extent get insurance at the guard spot with Wade's then health (load management was unfathomable concept for the organization at this time :rolleyes:). Then the blood clots happened and that plan went sideways.

From Windhorst (https://www.espn.com/nba/truehoop/miamiheat/story/_/id/11196723/lebron-james-meets-miami-heat-made-decision-yet-according-sources): "If James does choose to leave the Heat, free agent Chris Bosh will sign with the Houston Rockets, sources said. James not rushing to make a choice could put a time squeeze on Bosh. Though he hopes to remain with the Heat along with James, sources said, Bosh has secured a backup offer for four years and $88 million from the Rockets."

So... yea... the Heat were cutting costs, but that doesn't mean they weren't going to cheap out on Bosh. There were plenty of other ways for them to save money. Miller's amnesty helped. Battier and Allen had both retired. Haslem had only one year left on his deal, so if they'd have needed to dump him, they could've. Use your brain. If it would've really come down to "give me the max or I'm walking" on Bosh's end, especially when LeBron freaking James was a free agent and they likely had no chance at keeping him if Bosh had left, they were going to give him the max. But as Windhorst indicated, Bosh's priority was staying with James more than getting the max. He secured the Rockets offer as a backup, but Riley came in at the last second and convinced him to stay. The five-year max was part of that, but I think the other critical component was something Bosh has talked about himself (first on this episode of the BS Report (http://www.espn.com/espnradio/play?id=12333501)). He was sick of being on the most talked about team in the NBA. If he'd have gone to the Rockets, it would've been a really similar media circus with he, Dwight and Harden. Riley came to him and offered to make him the post-Bron face of the franchise. That idea intrigued him, from Tom Haberstroh (https://www.espn.com/nba/truehoop/miamiheat/story/_/id/11210803/chris-bosh-ready-lead-miami-heat):

“I think sometimes you miss it,” Bosh said. “You wonder if you can still do it and step up to the challenge. I haven’t had to be that guy. I played with the best player in the world. I didn’t have to be the alpha. But now I get to see if I have it in me and not many people are going to believe I have what’s necessary. But that’s what makes it exciting."

So yea, everything with Bosh is pretty easily traceable. The five-year max was certainly a big part of his decision to stay, but there really isn't much evidence to suggest that the Heat were not going to offer him any max to stick around. They wanted to get under the luxury tax, no question, but teams don't dump superstars to do that. They dump role players. Fortunately for Miami, most of their role players were off of the books at that point. They could've avoided the tax relatively easily just be re-signing their big 3 and being disciplined in the rest of free agency (which they already had been with those McRoberts/Granger deals for cap exceptions). Just use the minimum from there and you're golden.

As far as Dragic goes, this is another instance of common sense. Riley didn't get him specifically because of Bosh or Wade. Riley got him because he was an All-Star available at a price that they could afford, and Pat Riley will always want to add All-Stars. Now, you could argue that the luxury tax concerns that were real on Arison's part at the time might have prevented them from re-signing Dragic for the long-term, but Riley's track record does not exactly scream "prudence with draft picks." Even if he had LeBron, Wade and Bosh, he would have happily given up those picks with Granger, Shawne Williams, Justin Hamilton and Norris Cole even for Dragic on an expiring. Maybe they couldn't re-sign him for the long haul, but Dragic could have helped them with another Finals push. Given how good the Warriors looked that year, I'd wager Riley would have still wanted to supplement the roster with a big addition somehow. If this trade was really on the table, and I think it still would be since no one else at the time was willing to give up two first-round picks (Marc Stein hinted at that here (https://twitter.com/TheSteinLine/status/568486776337268736)), then I think Riley would have made it with or without LeBron. It's just the sort of move he likes to make. That doesn't make it definite. It makes it the likeliest conclusion, and one supported by real evidence.

That's what's been driving me crazy about some of the Heat fans in here. When you come in with the attitude of refusing to actually support your points with facts and evidence, you can basically say whatever you want and pretend it's true even when it isn't. You're fake newsing yourself.

AllBall
07-22-2019, 10:08 PM
That's what's been driving me crazy about some of the Heat fans in here. When you come in with the attitude of refusing to actually support your points with facts and evidence, you can basically say whatever you want and pretend it's true even when it isn't. You're fake newsing yourself.

By disagree with this HEAT you are basically agreeing with the others. Make up your mind.

ewing
07-23-2019, 04:31 PM
I think when LeBron got spanked by the Spurs it just validated his belief that everything should be run through him, he should never play off the ball, and he should call all the teams shots off the court. He went to Clev bc he is selfish. The relationships in Miami would have just gotten worse if he stayed so I guess it was the right choice.


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IKnowHoops
07-24-2019, 02:36 AM
I think when LeBron got spanked by the Spurs it just validated his belief that everything should be run through him, he should never play off the ball, and he should call all the teams shots off the court. He went to Clev bc he is selfish. The relationships in Miami would have just gotten worse if he stayed so I guess it was the right choice.


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Sounds personal

mightybosstone
07-24-2019, 07:17 AM
I think when LeBron got spanked by the Spurs it just validated his belief that everything should be run through him, he should never play off the ball, and he should call all the teams shots off the court. He went to Clev bc he is selfish. The relationships in Miami would have just gotten worse if he stayed so I guess it was the right choice.


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Your irrational hatred of Lebron rivals my irrational hatred of Karl Malone.

Heediot
07-24-2019, 08:38 AM
yeah he manipulated the situation to his advantage per usual.

miami wasn't willing to spend all out for him so he got gilbert to do it. he kept on signing 1 + 1 to make sure gilbert tows the line.

he played his cards right by trading wiggins, but if he got someone better vs love (which would have been possible as love's stock was high, he was even rumored for klay + dray at that point). with their cap room and trade chips maybe they could've gotten milsap and a 3-d stud. team would of won more chips.

Yanks All Day
07-24-2019, 08:53 AM
I feel like people forget what kind of shape the 2013 Miami Heat were in. It was LeBron carrying the team and everyone else along for the ride. Dwyane Wade played 54 games and managed 32 minutes per game. By the end of the playoffs, he was out of gas. Outside of Chris Bosh, the team was old. They were hoping for a Greg Oden resurgence or a Ray Allen shooting spectacular. It didn't work unless LeBron was superhuman. Once they got absolutely waxed by San Antonio, that was it.

In Cleveland, he just made the better basketball decision. Kyrie Irving was an up and coming superstar and they were about to acquire one of the best bigs in the NBA in Kevin Love. So LeBron moved from an older, broken-down team whose best days were behind them to a younger team ready to start winning. And they went to 4 straight Finals as a result.

Take all "coming home" narrative out of it, even though it's a huge story, and the result remains the same. Ceveland was simply (and easily) the better basketball decision.

ewing
07-24-2019, 09:12 AM
Your irrational hatred of Lebron rivals my irrational hatred of Karl Malone.

Just reading the tea leaves


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