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View Full Version : NBA All-Time Redraft FINALS - Miami Floridians vs Seaside Seagulls



valade16
07-05-2019, 08:53 AM
Every year members of PSD get together and have a draft of all the players throughout history. They are then ranked and seeded where a "playoff" determines the winner of the game. This is that playoff. Look over the two teams and vote on which team you think would win in a 7 games series.

Miami Floridians (Homecourt advantage)

C: Artis Gilmore / DeMarcus Cousins
PF: Dirk Nowitzki / Charles Oakley
SF: Peja Stojokavic / Bruce Bowen
SG: Kobe Bryant / Raja Bell
PG: Tim Hardaway / Dennis Johnson

vs

Seaside Seagulls

PG: Chris Paul | Kyrie Irving
SG: Jeff Hornacek | Gilbert Arenas
SF: George Gervin | Derek Harper
PF: Bobby Jones | Jermaine OíNeal
C: Hakeem Olajuwon | Brad Daugherty

Wrench
07-05-2019, 09:58 AM
C: Artis Gilmore: HoF | MVP | 5xAll-ABA | 5xAll-Def | 11xAll-Star | (71'-74')
21.1 PTS | 17.9 REB | 3.8 BLK | 3.4 AST | 0.7 STL | .551 FG%
PF: Dirk Nowitzki: MVP | FMVP | 12xAll-NBA | 14xAll-Star | 1xChamp | (05'-08')
25.7 PTS | 9.2 REB | 1.1 BLK | 3.1 AST | 0.9 STL | .480 FG% | .406 3P%
SF: Peja Stojakovic: 3xAll-Star | 1xChamp | (03'-06')
21.0 PTS | 5.5 REB | 0.2 BLK | 2.1 AST | 1.1 STL | .456 FG% | .414 3P%
SG: Kobe Bryant: MVP | 2xFMVP | 15xAll-NBA | 18xAll-Star | 2xPTS Champ | 12xAll-Def | (05'-08')
31.7 PTS | 5.8 REB | 0.4 BLK | 5.1 AST | 1.7 STL | .457 FG% | .351 3P%
PG: Tim Hardaway: 5xAll-NBA | 5xAll-Star | (90'-93')
21.8 PTS | 3.7 REB | 0.2 BLK | 10.0 AST | 1.8 STL | .489 FG% | .352 3P%

Bench
C: DeMarcus Cousins: 2xAll-NBA | 4xAll-Star | (15'-18')
26.5 PTS | 11.07 REB | 1.4 BLK | 4.3 AST | 1.5 STL | .456 FG% | .352 3PT%
PF: Charles Oakley: 2xAll-Def | 1xAll-Star | (86'-89')
15.3 PTS | 12.2 REB | 0.3 BLK | 3.0 AST | 1.0 STL | .477 FG% | .289 3P%
SF: Bruce Bowen: 8xAll-Def | 3xChamp (02'-05')
7.4 PTS | 2.5 REB | 0.5 BLK | 1.4 AST | 0.8 STL | .434 FG% | .403 3P%
SG: Raja Bell: 2xAll-Def | (04'-07')
14.0 PTS | 3.2 REB | 0.2 BLK | 2.2 AST | 0.8 STL | .447 FG% | .424 3P%
PG: Dennis Johnson: HoF | FMVP | 2xAll-NBA | 9xAll-Def | 5xAll-Star | 3xChamp (79'-82')
19.1 PTS | 4.9 REB | 0.8 BLK | 4.1 AST | 1.6 STL | .442 FG%

Wrench
07-05-2019, 10:14 AM
I'm not sure how your going to have guys line up defensively wise. CP3 on Kobe looks good on paper but Kobe would have 6 inches on him. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzGolkfK2Ak it wouldn't go to well.

Means Kobe would go up vs Hornacek/Gervin and neither of those two are defensive stoppers. So Kobe is going to get his points. Peja being on the other one means he's going to score as well.

Bobby Jones (6'9") vs Dirk Nowitzki (7'0") is an interesting match up being Jones is a great defender but there is a huge size disadvantage and Jones wasn't a guy who guarded out wide, he was a paint guy. Not sure how he would do.

Hakeem on Gilmore is an easy win for you, he could shut down Gilmore with ease but feel I'll have plunty of O out of the other 4 to make up for that.


On the flip side on defense for me. Kobe is on Gervin to slow him down, Hardaway on CP3, Peja on Hornacek, Dirk on Jones and Gilmore on Hakeem.

NYKalltheway
07-05-2019, 04:35 PM
I just wanna flip a coin :laugh2:

valade16
07-05-2019, 04:49 PM
For this matchup I plan to start Derek Harper at the 2 to guard Kobe. I lose some efficiency on 3's with Hornacek on the bench, but Harper 36% during his 3 year peak so I still maintain that ability. While Harper is smaller than Kobe the difference isn't that pronounced (6'4") he was a good defender and made a couple All-Defensive teams, and he's a better alternative than CP3 (6'1") or Hornacek's D on Kobe.

This also gives me the added benefit of having CP3 being able to shut down Tim Hardaway. As for Bobby Jones not being able to handle Dirk, I think he could. First, Dirk isn't very athletic so it's not like Jones will have trouble with Dirk off the dribble or from a triple threat standpoint. Additionally, Dirk had the most trouble historically against smaller, quicker defenders who could get underneath him and harass him (like Stephen Jackson R1 vs the Warriors). Jones is very much in that mold.

The main problem he has is, he has no answer for Hakeem. Gilmore was too big and plodding to ever be able to keep up with Olajuwon off the dribble or in the post. During Houston's 2 title runs Hakeem averaged 31 PPG and played his best against the top Centers of the era. In 2 years he faced Ewing, D-Rob and Shaq. Here were his numbers against them in those matchups:

Hakeem - 27 PPG, 9 RPG, 4 BPG, 50% FG
Ewing - 19 PPG, 12 RPG, 4 BPG, 36% FG

Hakeem - 35 PPG, 12 RPG, 4 BPG, 56% FG
D-Rob - 24 PPG, 11 RPG, 2 BPG, 45% FG

Hakeem - 33 PPG, 11.5 RPG, 2 BPG, 48% FG
Shaq - 28 PPG, 12.5 RPG, 2.5 BPG, 59% FG


The only guy who did well against Hakeem was Shaq, and Hakeem still scored 33 PPG, swept Shaq's Magic, and produced a higher game score (24.5 to 21.8).


So he has two of his worst defenders (Gilmore, Hardaway) on my two best players (Hakeem, CP3).

Wrench
07-05-2019, 06:10 PM
Well if you bring in Harper for heavy min's I just do the same with Dennis Johnson to shut CP3 down. I loose some shooting but with Peja/Dirk on the floor I still have more than what you have as your own threat would be CP3.


I don't think your giving Gilmore enough credit. He was a big guy but he for sure wasn't plodding and he had major hops.

A 35-38 age Gilmore did face a 21-25 age Hakeem, neither player was in their prime but Gilmore more and held his own at a much higher age.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&player_id1_hint=Artis+Gilmore&player_id1_select=Artis+Gilmore&player_id1=gilmoar01&idx=players&player_id2_hint=Hakeem+Olajuwon&player_id2_select=Hakeem+Olajuwon&player_id2=olajuha01&idx=players

valade16
07-05-2019, 06:37 PM
Well if you bring in Harper for heavy min's I just do the same with Dennis Johnson to shut CP3 down. I loose some shooting but with Peja/Dirk on the floor I still have more than what you have as your own threat would be CP3.


I don't think your giving Gilmore enough credit. He was a big guy but he for sure wasn't plodding and he had major hops.

A 35-38 age Gilmore did face a 21-25 age Hakeem, neither player was in their prime but Gilmore more and held his own at a much higher age.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&player_id1_hint=Artis+Gilmore&player_id1_select=Artis+Gilmore&player_id1=gilmoar01&idx=players&player_id2_hint=Hakeem+Olajuwon&player_id2_select=Hakeem+Olajuwon&player_id2=olajuha01&idx=players

21-25 year old Hakeem was not nearly as good offensively as his prime. During the seasons he faced Gilmore there he averaged 22.5 PPG, from 89-97 he was at 25 PPG and during his 3 year peak he was at 27 PPG (30 PPG playoffs).

Gilmore is a very efficient scorer and he scored a lot, but he didnít really slow Hakeem and he got outrebounded.

As for bringing in DJ, your defense definitely gets better, but at the expense of your offense. Hardaway was the only player who was a primary creator for others. Your offense seems to rely on a heavy dose of Kobe or Dirk ISOs.

Wrench
07-05-2019, 07:05 PM
21-25 year old Hakeem was not nearly as good offensively as his prime. During the seasons he faced Gilmore there he averaged 22.5 PPG, from 89-97 he was at 25 PPG and during his 3 year peak he was at 27 PPG (30 PPG playoffs).

Gilmore is a very efficient scorer and he scored a lot, but he didnít really slow Hakeem and he got outrebounded.

As for bringing in DJ, your defense definitely gets better, but at the expense of your offense. Hardaway was the only player who was a primary creator for others. Your offense seems to rely on a heavy dose of Kobe or Dirk ISOs.

He has a .558 TS% in those age 21-25 seasons, where 89-97' he has a .559 TS%. He was just as efficient those early years the biggest difference in the two is he increased his shoots per game from 17 to 21.

My point from that is Gilmore can hold him to his averages It's a win for me, you posted he was my one my worst defenders and that just isn't true. Guy was a legit one of the best in the paint and going up vs one of the all time greats offensively I'll take holding him to his normal averages.

Also DJ could create pretty well too, he had multiple 7+ ast season averages. Kobe or Dirk ISOs will work too, a high pick and roll would work really well. Kobe/Pau did it alot when they where together and a Kobe/Dirk one would be on steroids.

valade16
07-05-2019, 07:23 PM
He has a .558 TS% in those age 21-25 seasons, where 89-97' he has a .559 TS%. He was just as efficient those early years the biggest difference in the two is he increased his shoots per game from 17 to 21.

My point from that is Gilmore can hold him to his averages It's a win for me, you posted he was my one my worst defenders and that just isn't true. Guy was a legit one of the best in the paint and going up vs one of the all time greats offensively I'll take holding him to his normal averages.

Also DJ could create pretty well too, he had multiple 7+ ast season averages. Kobe or Dirk ISOs will work too, a high pick and roll would work really well. Kobe/Pau did it alot when they where together and a Kobe/Dirk one would be on steroids.

Iíll take Gilmore holding Hakeem to his average considering his playoff PPG during his 3 year peak is 30 PPG.

Wrench
07-05-2019, 08:33 PM
Iíll take Gilmore holding Hakeem to his average considering his playoff PPG during his 3 year peak is 30 PPG.

Well it was 29.8 PTS in those three years, on 23.3 shots a game and a 32.4% USG and a TS% of .564


With all the flack Kobe gets about being inefficient,

Kobe (07'-10') 29.8 PTS | 22.4ST | 33% USG | TS% .564

Almost mirror images of each other.

ChiSox219
07-06-2019, 03:11 PM
I voted for the wrong team by mistake, my vote goes to Miami

Quinnsanity
07-08-2019, 01:04 AM
Miami in a brutally tough matchup. It really came down to a few things for me. I like their bench a lot better (DJ and Bowen are starters in this). I also really didn't feel comfortable with anyone on Seaside's roster defending Kobe, and while Bobby Jones would do well on Dirk, he would also essentially allow Dirk to do nothing on defense on the other end. This was really tough, and I might like Seaside better overall as a team, but the matchup favors Miami for me.

Dunkapolooza
07-08-2019, 11:06 PM
Bobby Jones is among the best all time sf-c type defenders. Tailored for Dirk. Not only is he the right length and quickness but he was a tough hard nosed guy too. a 2 steals / 2 blocks a game kind of guy.

On offense Bobby Jones was an elite floor runner and extremely active off the ball. Dirk won't be able to relax for a second and if he does Bobby Jones will get efficient buckets (.607 ts%) He'll score 15 more efficiently than Dirk will score 20.

And Hakeem will score 20 more efficiently than Gilmore will score 15. Unlike Jones, who will have a "trying to relax for offense" Dirk on him, Gilmore will be up against Hakeem. That great Gilmore efg% will go down. Worse for Gilmore is that Cp3 and Gervin had great pull up games and didn't have to get all the way to the hoop for buckets. Limits his shot blocking.

Tim - who has to get by cp3 - and Kobe will have to face Hakeem on the back line. When Miami forces rotations Seagulls have three players who averaged 1.5 blks per game in their starting line up. This part of Gervin and Jone's game is underrated. That's three players that can rotate over to block shots or disrupt lobs to Gilmore.

The best offense I see Miami getting is Kobe taking Derek Harper off the dribble for mid range jumpers. Not super efficient. Attacking Bobby Jones or Hakeem in pick and roll? I don't think so? Going at 9x All D Jones? tough.... Meanwhile Seagulls will have Dirk trying to stay locked in on savvy bobby jones. Gilmore will not have the quickness to keep up with Hakeem. Let alone Cp3 on pick and roll switches.

Quinnsanity
07-09-2019, 03:07 AM
Bobby Jones is among the best all time sf-c type defenders. Tailored for Dirk. Not only is he the right length and quickness but he was a tough hard nosed guy too. a 2 steals / 2 blocks a game kind of guy.

On offense Bobby Jones was an elite floor runner and extremely active off the ball. Dirk won't be able to relax for a second and if he does Bobby Jones will get efficient buckets (.607 ts%) He'll score 15 more efficiently than Dirk will score 20.

And Hakeem will score 20 more efficiently than Gilmore will score 15. Unlike Jones, who will have a "trying to relax for offense" Dirk on him, Gilmore will be up against Hakeem. That great Gilmore efg% will go down. Worse for Gilmore is that Cp3 and Gervin had great pull up games and didn't have to get all the way to the hoop for buckets. Limits his shot blocking.

Tim - who has to get by cp3 - and Kobe will have to face Hakeem on the back line. When Miami forces rotations Seagulls have three players who averaged 1.5 blks per game in their starting line up. This part of Gervin and Jone's game is underrated. That's three players that can rotate over to block shots or disrupt lobs to Gilmore.

The best offense I see Miami getting is Kobe taking Derek Harper off the dribble for mid range jumpers. Not super efficient. Attacking Bobby Jones or Hakeem in pick and roll? I don't think so? Going at 9x All D Jones? tough.... Meanwhile Seagulls will have Dirk trying to stay locked in on savvy bobby jones. Gilmore will not have the quickness to keep up with Hakeem. Let alone Cp3 on pick and roll switches.

Wanna talk about this, because Bobby Jones is sort of player that modern defenses suffocate. He was a great transition player offensively, but in the halfcourt, the bulk of his scoring came off of off-ball movement. That has value when you're a shooting threat, but Jones isn't. Jones isn't going to back cut Dirk in this game because he's going to sag so far off of him that doing so wouldn't really create easy layups. It's just really, really hard to be a meaningful offensive player under modern standards when you can't shoot from distance, create off of the dribble or pass at an extremely high level. For the purposes of this game, I view Jones as largely a non-factor in half-court offense.

valade16
07-11-2019, 10:17 AM
Congratulations Wrench on your Championship!