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NBA all the way
07-03-2019, 07:07 PM
The Kyrie to the Celtics trade is coming up on almost 2 years old. With 2 years worth of hindsight I was wondering who you all think won the trade?

The original trade was

Celtics get
Kyrie

Cavs get
IT
Crowder
Zizic
Nets 2018 1st rounder
Heat 2020 2nd rounder

It could stop there, if you wanted it to but if you look at what some of the pieces became, it could potentially add to or take away from your opinion of the trade.

IT traded in a package for Clarkson and Nance Jr
Crowder traded in a package (included Heat 2020 2nd rounder) for George Hill, Hood, rights to Arturas Gudaitis
Collin Sexton selected with Nets pick

Hill traded in a package for Dellavedova, Henson, Bucks 2021 1st and 2nd picks
Hood traded for Stauskas, Wade Baldwin, Blazers 2021 and 2023 2nd rounders

Stauskas, Wade Baldwin, Bucks 2021 2nd rounder traded for Knight, Chriss, Rockets 2019 1st

Dylan Windler selected with Rockets pick
Blazers 2021 and 2023 2nd rounders traded in a package for Bucks 2019 1st rounder (rights to Kevin Porter Jr)

Recapping the assets both teams hold as of today

Celtics
Nothing - Kyrie walked in FA to the Nets

Cavs
Sexton
Nance Jr
Zizic
Windler
Porter Jr
Henson expiring contract
Delly expiring contract
Knight expiring contract
Clarkson expiring contract
rights to Arturas Gudaitis
Bucks future 1st rounder - tons of protections on it

Chronz
07-03-2019, 07:39 PM
A rare trade where both teams lost

tucksoe
07-03-2019, 07:53 PM
A rare trade where both teams lost

Hahaha

beasted86
07-03-2019, 08:00 PM
A rare trade where both teams lost

I agree.

Sexton is the only player worth anything. And even still had so much confidence instilled in him that the Cavs traded up just so they could draft another PG.

JAZZNC
07-03-2019, 08:47 PM
Yeah, that's just pretty disgusting all around. Neither of them came out with anything to show for it.

NBA all the way
07-03-2019, 08:48 PM
A rare trade where both teams lost
I was gonna make that a poll option 😂

KG2TB
07-03-2019, 09:01 PM
Great job, Ainge. You were gifted a hundred lottery picks and still donít have a franchise player on the roster nor made a finals appearance. For all the credit he gets (or used to get), Iím not impressed with what heís done with the ammo heís had. Boston is a solid team that will be competitive but never go anywhere as currently constructed.

IKnowHoops
07-03-2019, 09:50 PM
I know Boston would do nothing with Kyrie. Gordon getting hurt was very bad luck. Had he not gotten hurt it do would of been better, but I knew Kyrie really has a bad effect on team chemistry with his globe trotter dream bling show.

Saddletramp
07-03-2019, 09:58 PM
I know Boston would do nothing with Kyrie. Gordon getting hurt was very bad luck. Had he not gotten hurt it do would of been better, but I knew Kyrie really has a bad effect on team chemistry with his globe trotter dream bling show.

Heís not a glove trotter. Heís a cube trotter.

More-Than-Most
07-03-2019, 10:02 PM
said i hated the trade from day 1.... said i wouldnt want kyrie from day 1 even though i have come around on him a good bit... said the celtics play better without IT and would play better without kyrie... got laughed at and called a moron for all of these things because i understood the celtics system and understood how overrated IT was and how cancerous kyrie was. Interesting

PAOboston
07-03-2019, 10:09 PM
Ainge swung for fences hoping Kyrie would evolve into a leader. That didnít happen. But he also didnít give up anything of real value for him either. He basically traded a late lotto pick for 2 years of Kyrie.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

hugepatsfan
07-13-2019, 08:43 PM
I think there is some revisionist history with the Kyrie trade. Let's take it back to the time of the deal...

CLE tried to play both sides. They wanted to toe the line of helping stay good enough to win with Lebron but also having a future after him if he left. They though BOS offered a combination of those two things with IT and Crowder as well as the BRK pick. But BRK had shown signs of improving so while that was a very valuable piece, it wasn't like a holy grail asset. And they grossly overvalued what IT and Crowder could bring. So honestly, they just completely miscalculated everything. They tried to be cute pursuing two goals at once rather than picking a direction and going all in on that. They could have gotten better assets if they went the long term route and they could have gotten better win now pieces if they did that. Just trash job by their GM.

BOS on the other hand banked on Kyrie being able to take the next step as a leader. And it's easy to look at last year and assume he couldn't. BUT, people forget that in his first year, after the Hayward injury, he played most of the season and had BOS as a #1 seed. Everything BOS thought he could be he was. Then he got hurt too. And we all know about the run Tatum and Brown went on. In theory, that was supposed to just make them better for next year. And Kyrie believed that too which is why this time last year he was singing to the media that he wanted to stay, calling teammates over to his house to assure them he was re-signing, etc.

But what also happened was the young guys developed egos. They felt they proved themselves so when Kyrie (and Hayward) came back they didn't want to be the "supporting cast". They demonstrated extreme individual and team success as the main guys and expected to be treated as such. But there was still talk of Kyrie being "the guy" and how with him in fold BOS could go "all-in for AD". It created tension. And that's how it all unraveled.

If CLE could go back in time they'd undo this terrible trade. If BOS could, they'd still make this deal. The part of history they'd undo is Kyrie getting hurt. Because then the team probably continues to work as well as it had been but without the chance for young guys to earn egos like they developed. And then the tension probably never exists and Kyrie is probably still re-signing like he intended to last year.

Vee-Rex
07-14-2019, 08:41 PM
Cavs won the trade. Sexton alone is better than having nothing (right now) to show for it. And it's not like Kyrie would've made a difference for the Cavs in the 2017-18 season - he reportedly threatened to get knee surgery and miss the year if the Cavs didn't trade him. And had he played, they would've still lost to the Warriors in the finals. Whereas the C's made the ECF two years straight without Kyrie.

But it's not really anything to write home about. We won the trade but we didn't rob the Celtics in the deal.

Vee-Rex
07-14-2019, 08:50 PM
If CLE could go back in time they'd undo this terrible trade.

I strongly disagree. I think CLE would keep this deal.

1. We got Sexton who has a TON of potential.
2. We got rid of Kyrie who has so far proven himself to be cancerous. He was gone and not resigning with us. His relationship with LeBron and the rest of the team was pretty much irreparable.
3. Even if we DID keep Kyrie we'd still be a borderline playoff team IF that with no chance at a title. I think the fans are in a very comfortable place right now. No expectations and we get to enjoy watching our young players grow.

Maybe it'll be 3 or 5 or 10 or 15 years before we compete in the EC again, but as of right now we're feeling pretty good about the team after dealing with non-stop drama for 4 years. I think we had a strong draft (can't wait to see KPJR out there) and I've got a good feeling about Garland. His style of play reminds me of Lillard's.

NBA all the way
07-14-2019, 09:23 PM
I strongly disagree. I think CLE would keep this deal.

1. We got Sexton who has a TON of potential.
2. We got rid of Kyrie who has so far proven himself to be cancerous. He was gone and not resigning with us. His relationship with LeBron and the rest of the team was pretty much irreparable.
3. Even if we DID keep Kyrie we'd still be a borderline playoff team IF that with no chance at a title. I think the fans are in a very comfortable place right now. No expectations and we get to enjoy watching our young players grow.

Maybe it'll be 3 or 5 or 10 or 15 years before we compete in the EC again, but as of right now we're feeling pretty good about the team after dealing with non-stop drama for 4 years. I think we had a strong draft (can't wait to see KPJR out there) and I've got a good feeling about Garland. His style of play reminds me of Lillard's.

Lots of youth there. Be interesting to see what Beilein, Bickerstaff, Gottlieb and Lang are able to do with them

hugepatsfan
07-14-2019, 09:41 PM
I strongly disagree. I think CLE would keep this deal.

1. We got Sexton who has a TON of potential.
2. We got rid of Kyrie who has so far proven himself to be cancerous. He was gone and not resigning with us. His relationship with LeBron and the rest of the team was pretty much irreparable.
3. Even if we DID keep Kyrie we'd still be a borderline playoff team IF that with no chance at a title. I think the fans are in a very comfortable place right now. No expectations and we get to enjoy watching our young players grow.

Maybe it'll be 3 or 5 or 10 or 15 years before we compete in the EC again, but as of right now we're feeling pretty good about the team after dealing with non-stop drama for 4 years. I think we had a strong draft (can't wait to see KPJR out there) and I've got a good feeling about Garland. His style of play reminds me of Lillard's.

I definitely definitely think Sexton is better than nothing. But thinking back to the rumors I think they could have gotten more from PHX or DEN. Not saying theyíre in a bad spot having Sexton to show for it but they passed on packages that would have them in even better position now because they foolishly valued IT/Crowder so highly in the BOS deal.

I like Nance so they did at least salvage a little something out of those pieces but thatís outside the scope of this trade.

At the end of the day I just donít think CLE came even close to MAXIMIZING the value of Kyrie. ďWell what we got is better than nothingĒ is such a terrible way to rationalize trading an all star with 2 seasons left on his deal. You should get a better return than they did for him, point blank period.

Vee-Rex
07-14-2019, 10:08 PM
At the end of the day I just donít think CLE came even close to MAXIMIZING the value of Kyrie. ďWell what we got is better than nothingĒ is such a terrible way to rationalize trading an all star with 2 seasons left on his deal. You should get a better return than they did for him, point blank period.

It's tough to maximize deals for players that demand a trade. The Cavs were also in a unique situation in which they had dominated the eastern conference for 3 years and had a top 3 player of all time on their roster. They couldn't just punt. They couldn't just throw Kyrie in a deal that only brought back young, prepubescent kids with a future pick or two. They had to figure out a way to gather potential future value (in case LeBron left) while also keeping themselves viable for another finals run.

You mention in your earlier post that Ainge would take back the injury to Kyrie - well similarly, the Cavs would take back the injury to Isaiah Thomas. It was a big risk, but had IT turned out the way they hoped, the Cavs would have been a better team (still not beating the KD Warriors but who was).

The "what we got is better than nothing" is just a response to comparing the remaining assets from that trade. It's not really a "yes we're happy all we got was Sexton/Nance for Kyrie".

hugepatsfan
07-14-2019, 11:10 PM
It's tough to maximize deals for players that demand a trade. The Cavs were also in a unique situation in which they had dominated the eastern conference for 3 years and had a top 3 player of all time on their roster. They couldn't just punt. They couldn't just throw Kyrie in a deal that only brought back young, prepubescent kids with a future pick or two. They had to figure out a way to gather potential future value (in case LeBron left) while also keeping themselves viable for another finals run.

You mention in your earlier post that Ainge would take back the injury to Kyrie - well similarly, the Cavs would take back the injury to Isaiah Thomas. It was a big risk, but had IT turned out the way they hoped, the Cavs would have been a better team (still not beating the KD Warriors but who was).

The "what we got is better than nothing" is just a response to comparing the remaining assets from that trade. It's not really a "yes we're happy all we got was Sexton/Nance for Kyrie".

I donít think IT was going to work regardless. He isnít a catch and shoot player or secondary ISO piece which is what the Cavs system calls for. It seemed they thought a scoring PG should replace a scoring PG with some basic fan shallow analysis but ignored the particulars of each playerís game.

Even considering the line they had to toe with Lebron I think they should have gotten more. Itís easy to rationalize a diminished return because of how the Kyrie-BOS relationship soured this year but that has nothing to do with what his trade value was at the time of the deal. CLE failed to execute a good trade with him.

NBA all the way
07-14-2019, 11:38 PM
I donít think IT was going to work regardless. He isnít a catch and shoot player or secondary ISO piece which is what the Cavs system calls for. It seemed they thought a scoring PG should replace a scoring PG with some basic fan shallow analysis but ignored the particulars of each playerís game.

Even considering the line they had to toe with Lebron I think they should have gotten more. Itís easy to rationalize a diminished return because of how the Kyrie-BOS relationship soured this year but that has nothing to do with what his trade value was at the time of the deal. CLE failed to execute a good trade with him.

Allegedly, coulda had Bledsoe and Paul George if Gilbert woulda reupped Griff's contract. Better talent to be sure but they both woulda walked in free agency.

Vee-Rex
07-14-2019, 11:43 PM
I donít think IT was going to work regardless. He isnít a catch and shoot player or secondary ISO piece which is what the Cavs system calls for. It seemed they thought a scoring PG should replace a scoring PG with some basic fan shallow analysis but ignored the particulars of each playerís game.


IMO, it was less about his style of game and more about his talent level/injury. I can't say to what extent the injury impacted him but he was clearly not the same player he was the year before. And the damning part about it is - he significantly overachieved in the 2016-17 season which was probably never truly his baseline talent level.

The Cavs were sorely lacking in playmakers and IT was a damn good one in 16-17. Cavs bought into the IT hype and thought he could be that level of player but he never was. He was pretty awful for us.



Even considering the line they had to toe with Lebron I think they should have gotten more. Itís easy to rationalize a diminished return because of how the Kyrie-BOS relationship soured this year but that has nothing to do with what his trade value was at the time of the deal. CLE failed to execute a good trade with him.

By that same token, it's easy to criticize the trade as a poor one from Cleveland's perspective because of how the IT-CLE experiment went. Had IT returned to his all-star form perhaps we'd be sitting here looking at it a bit differently.

It was a gamble from the Cavs perspective, especially considering we just parted with David Griffin and Koby Altman was the fresh face with Gilbert pulling the strings. What happens if we traded him for Kemba and D12 and LeBron left anyway (we'd lose to GS regardless)? Then we'd be sitting here watching Kemba walk and have nothing right now, probably not even bad enough to draft as high as we have.

At the end of the day, I'm just happy the Cavs walked away with something out of it. It honestly could have been completely disastrous.

Vee-Rex
07-14-2019, 11:55 PM
Allegedly, coulda had Bledsoe and Paul George if Gilbert woulda reupped Griff's contract. Better talent to be sure but they both woulda walked in free agency.

Gilbert screwed it all up and I was calling it when it happened. Contrary to some rumors, I think Kyrie was gonna have to be traded no matter what. His issues were squarely with LeBron and by extension some of the team as he isolated himself from the team in the 2017 playoffs.

But Griffin likely would have been able to put together a better trade to contend for the championship. Kyrie to Phoenix for #4 + Bledsoe and shoot the #4 to the Pacers for George may have been possible, but at the time George had a year remaining and wanted assurance that LeBron would resign before he would. They likely get beat by GS and all walk anyway.

So while in hindsight we can criticize the Cavs, at the time it was a very complicated choice and is why they tried to play halfsies with competing and bringing in future assets.

NBA all the way
07-14-2019, 11:59 PM
Gilbert screwed it all up and I was calling it when it happened. Contrary to some rumors, I think Kyrie was gonna have to be traded no matter what. His issues were squarely with LeBron and by extension some of the team as he isolated himself from the team in the 2017 playoffs.

But Griffin likely would have been able to put together a better trade to contend for the championship. Kyrie to Phoenix for #4 + Bledsoe and shoot the #4 to the Pacers for George may have been possible, but at the time George had a year remaining and wanted assurance that LeBron would resign before he would. They likely get beat by GS and all walk anyway.

So while in hindsight we can criticize the Cavs, at the time it was a very complicated choice and is why they tried to play halfsies with competing and bringing in future assets.

Koby did the best he could, given the situation and circumstances. Griff most likely woulda got more, when you see his Lakers haul, Gilbert just hates paying his GM's

Oakmont_4
07-16-2019, 06:43 AM
I truly donít understand the Danny hate. As a Celtics fan, I wish heíd accomplished more since the KG/PP trade. But I also understand that no GM is absolutely perfect, and not every move can be made as easily as fans make it out to be. Letís go back and look at what he had/did and couldíve done.

KG/PP trade compensation

2014, 2016, 2018 picks unprotected and a trade swap in 2017.

Iím ignoring the players because they were just contract fillers Ė and actually Danny did a fantastic job ditching those contracts without having to attach first round picks to them. So I donít know what any fan could say negatively about those maneuvers so I wonít even consider them.

2014 Ė Pick #17 Ė James Young

-Hereís the one pick we can harp on. Young never amounted to much of anything after clinging on the back end of the roster for about 3 years. Danny passed on a couple players Rodney Hood (23) and Clint Capella (25) who are clearly better. However, 2014 was generally, a weak draft. They did pull Marcus Smart with their own pick.

A small mark against Danny here but 20+ other teams also passed on the likes of Hood and Capella who were both unknown commodities at the time. Neither player would make us that much better today and likely would have prevented some of Dannyís better future moves. The draft is generally a crap shoot outside of the top 5 picks Ė but outside the lottery it gets evenÖ.crappier

2016 Ė Pick #3 Ė Jaylen Brown

-This was a good pick. Jaylen has grown a lot since his rookie season and still has upside. I donít know that heíll be a franchise player, Iíd say thatís unlikely, but a very solid 2 way player whoís a borderline All Star seems like his career projection. I wouldnít trade Jalyen for anyone drafted behind him in the 16 draft which means Danny made the right pick here.

2017 Ė Pick swap to #1

Traded back to #3 which picked up the SAC pick we used in this yearís draft

#3 Ė Jayson Tatum. This was a great pick. Heís better than Fultz who went #1. The only player from the 17 draft I would trade Tatum for right now would be Donovan Mitchell. But itís close. Mitchell has been featured more which has allowed him to showcase more. I think theyíll both be great players and you really canít go wrong with either of them.

We also got the 2019 SAC pick in this deal which ended up being Romeo Langford. TBD on this evaluation.

2018 Ė Traded #8, IT, Crowder, Zizic

#8 ended up being Sexton. Nice player, but not a franchise guy. If heís here right now, weíre no better than we were.

IT Ė Was a soon to be Free Agent that wanted to be paid BIG money coming off an injury Ė loved him while he was here, but holding onto him was going to turn out bad.
Crowder Ė Nice role player, nothing special. Heís bounced around the league since which shows how teams value him.
Zizic Ė young big who still hasnít shown anything in CLE

Iíd make the Kyrie trade again, even if we now know what we know.

Hindsight is 20/20 so I would trade Kyrie after year 1. But Danny could never consider that because the entire time Kyrie was telling Danny he would re-sign, so why would Danny consider trading him?

So, if thereís really nothing to argue in regards to Dannyís drafting. Thereís no guy who you could realistically say Ė WHY DIDNíT HE DRAFT THAT GUY.

So people must be criticizing Danny on trades he didnít make. What are those trades?

Jimmy Butler Ė Supposedly CHI wanted #3 in 2016 plus guys like Avery Bradley to make the money work. Iím still not making this trade. I wouldnít trade Jaylen Brown for Butler right now. Butler would not have won us a championship in the past 2 years. So no complaints on this one.

Paul George Ė He wouldíve been fantastic. But no matter what we offered, IND wasnít going to trade him in the Eastern Conference. So he wasnít an option. Canít fault Danny for that one.

Anthony Davis Ė While Kyrie was on our roster, we COULD NOT trade for Anthony Davis. The league/CBA would not allow it. By the time we couldíve traded for Davis Ė He publicly said he wouldnít re-sign here and Kyrie was out the door. So Iím going to say he wasnít an option. We still COULD have traded for him but the cost was Tatum. For a 1 year rental. After just going through the Kyrie situation. No thank you here.

Thereís only 1 trade to knock Danny for not making, and that was the Kawhi Leonard trade. Again, hindsight is 20/20. There were a TON of question marks around Kawhi at the time. 28 other GMís didnít pull the trigger on him. TOR did. They won. He left.
The only trade that couldíve made Danny look better was a swap of Kyrie for Kawhi. But that would have been a very BOLD move. Not even considering the question marks around Kawhi at the time Ė but at the time you had Kyrie saying I WILL RE-SIGN and Kawhi saying he likely wouldnít.

So what move was Danny supposed to make? What draft pick/trade did he not execute that makes us a championship team?

Basketball is a very difficult sport to win in. If you donít have a top 5 player Ė itís nearly impossible. And top 5 players arenít exactly readily available every offseason. The only guy above that could be considered a top 5 player and available was Kawhi.

Letís look at what Danny was able to accomplish since that trade vs what he wasnít able to.

Playoffs every year but 1
ECF
Bradley for Morris trade Ė clear win
Draft Ė Smart, Tatum, Brown Ė Iíd put those 3 up against just about any GMís drafts in the past 5 years.
Kyrie trade Ė Didnít work out in the end, but look what Westbrook just fetched and what Kyrie fetchedÖ
Free Agents Ė Horford, Hayward, Walker

I mean Ė how many GMís in the NBA can come close to that kind of resume in the past 5 years? Trades, drafts, Free Agent signings. Maybe 3 or 4 GMís are even comparable?

I get it. AT the time it seemed like the Celtics would be the next DYNASTY. That hasnít happened. But itís not like Danny completed just threw away all those picks. Tatum and Brown are still very young and growing. What players drafted 2016 or later are ready to carry a team to a championship on their backs? None.

Patience. This takes time. Everyone wants answers now, today. We need to win NOW. Thatís not how it works.

Danny has been and still is a top 5 GM in the NBA. I challenge anyone to name 5 better GMís and list their accomplishments over Dannyís in the past 5 years.

rc33
07-16-2019, 04:37 PM
Great job, Ainge. You were gifted a hundred lottery picks and still donít have a franchise player on the roster nor made a finals appearance. For all the credit he gets (or used to get), Iím not impressed with what heís done with the ammo heís had. Boston is a solid team that will be competitive but never go anywhere as currently constructed.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
No winner in this deal, really.
But the Markelle Fultz trade was recently completed.
In the end, Boston received Jayson Tatum and Romeo Langford.
Phila. received Jonathan Simmons and 3 second round picks.
Let me guess, still not impressed.

And who exactly are you to say they'll "never go anywhere?"

Chronz
07-18-2019, 02:41 PM
I donít think IT was going to work regardless. He isnít a catch and shoot player or secondary ISO piece which is what the Cavs system calls for. It seemed they thought a scoring PG should replace a scoring PG with some basic fan shallow analysis but ignored the particulars of each playerís game.

Even considering the line they had to toe with Lebron I think they should have gotten more. Itís easy to rationalize a diminished return because of how the Kyrie-BOS relationship soured this year but that has nothing to do with what his trade value was at the time of the deal. CLE failed to execute a good trade with him.

bingo, it was an idiotic trade to begin with, its why Bron begged they didn't trade him. They accomplished neither of the important aspects teams trading stars try to accomplish, they neither got future assets nor did they improve their win now situation. All they got was Sexton who didn't look truly competent until the season was over and we entered the dog days of the NBA. The thinking of no one beating the dubs is truly why they didn't deserve Bron, if that was the mindset Bron should have left immediately after the Chip cuz the team betrayed him thereafter.

Vee-Rex
07-18-2019, 04:36 PM
bingo, it was an idiotic trade to begin with, its why Bron begged they didn't trade him. They accomplished neither of the important aspects teams trading stars try to accomplish, they neither got future assets nor did they improve their win now situation. All they got was Sexton who didn't look truly competent until the season was over and we entered the dog days of the NBA. The thinking of no one beating the dubs is truly why they didn't deserve Bron, if that was the mindset Bron should have left immediately after the Chip cuz the team betrayed him thereafter.

Sexton is better than nothing and only 19 years old for half the season - anyone judging his competence from his early struggles don't understand basketball. From here on out, he could fail and be bad, or he could keep progressing and turn into a good player. We'll see.

As to the rest of your post - I know you have a hatred/jealousy of the Cavs but you can blame Gilbert for most/all of it. He's not a good owner at all, and it has had an obvious impact on the organization.

NBA all the way
07-18-2019, 05:55 PM
bingo, it was an idiotic trade to begin with, its why Bron begged they didn't trade him. They accomplished neither of the important aspects teams trading stars try to accomplish, they neither got future assets nor did they improve their win now situation. All they got was Sexton who didn't look truly competent until the season was over and we entered the dog days of the NBA. The thinking of no one beating the dubs is truly why they didn't deserve Bron, if that was the mindset Bron should have left immediately after the Chip cuz the team betrayed him thereafter.

They didn't only get Sexton anyway, that's a complete write off to every other asset in the trade.

The assets they acquired were part of packages that have left them with

Sexton
Nance Jr
Zizic
Windler
Porter Jr
Henson expiring contract
Delly expiring contract
Knight expiring contract
Clarkson expiring contract
rights to Arturas Gudaitis
Bucks future 1st rounder

With that in mind, I'd say they nailed the young future assets side of trading a star. Just because it didn't happen all in one trade, doesn't mean it should be discredited.

Chronz
07-18-2019, 08:35 PM
Sexton is better than nothing and only 19 years old for half the season - anyone judging his competence from his early struggles don't understand basketball. From here on out, he could fail and be bad, or he could keep progressing and turn into a good player. We'll see.

As to the rest of your post - I know you have a hatred/jealousy of the Cavs but you can blame Gilbert for most/all of it. He's not a good owner at all, and it has had an obvious impact on the organization.

I disagree, Sexton is not better than emptying the clip. we've seen 19 year olds in the NBA forever now, never has it been easier for phenoms to contribute, especially ball handlers, im grading him on that curve KNOWING NBA history. Hes not that impressive but yes, he has plenty of time. I just think players of his ilk are not exactly hard to find and totally not worth wasting a year of a GOAT.

How do you KNOW that about me, lol. I rooted for you guys and won big (thanks to my ladies insistence on betting on Bron), I dont have those kind of feelings for any team except maybe Utah.

Chronz
07-18-2019, 08:38 PM
They didn't only get Sexton anyway, that's a complete write off to every other asset in the trade.

The assets they acquired were part of packages that have left them with

Sexton
Nance Jr
Zizic
Windler
Porter Jr
Henson expiring contract
Delly expiring contract
Knight expiring contract
Clarkson expiring contract
rights to Arturas Gudaitis
Bucks future 1st rounder

With that in mind, I'd say they nailed the young future assets side of trading a star. Just because it didn't happen all in one trade, doesn't mean it should be discredited.

run of the mill talent any team could get. expiring contracts? lmfao, you remind me of hawkeye lauding the likes of Kahn for being glorified accountants. whos porter JR? I like Zizic but if this is the "haul" you get for Kyrie (all while strengthening a rival) then its nothing to brag about.

NBA all the way
07-18-2019, 11:00 PM
run of the mill talent any team could get. expiring contracts? lmfao, you remind me of hawkeye lauding the likes of Kahn for being glorified accountants. whos porter JR? I like Zizic but if this is the "haul" you get for Kyrie (all while strengthening a rival) then its nothing to brag about.

Expirings can turn into other assets... Not that summer 2020 is very deep, but still.

Kevin Porter Jr, the 30th pick in this year's draft.

Kyrie walked from the Celtics for nothing. He was gonna get knee surgery and walk from the Cavs for nothing. Having something to show for it is better than nothing. Especially given the Cavs track record of being able to attract top tier free agents.

beasted86
07-19-2019, 12:11 AM
They didn't only get Sexton anyway, that's a complete write off to every other asset in the trade.

The assets they acquired were part of packages that have left them with

Sexton
Nance Jr
Zizic
Windler
Porter Jr
Henson expiring contract
Delly expiring contract
Knight expiring contract
Clarkson expiring contract
rights to Arturas Gudaitis
Bucks future 1st rounder

With that in mind, I'd say they nailed the young future assets side of trading a star. Just because it didn't happen all in one trade, doesn't mean it should be discredited.

I would gladly trade all of that right now for a star for 2 years with no guarantee to resign him if I were a playoff team. Like for example if Cavs still had LeBron and were in a position to contend, they would gladly move this package of players for Beal. And most would say the Wizards got robbed.

Cavs don't have anything special, stop over rating this "trade return".

Vee-Rex
07-19-2019, 12:18 AM
I would gladly trade all of that right now for a star for 2 years with no guarantee to resign him if I were a playoff team. Like for example if Cavs still had LeBron and were in a position to contend, they would gladly move this package of players for Beal. And most would say the Wizards got robbed.

Cavs don't have anything special, stop over rating this "trade return".

I don't think anyone is faulting the Celtics/Ainge for making the trade.

No one is saying the Cavs robbed the Celtics or got an incredible return either.

This is a "2 years later" thread. Right now, would you rather have nothing, or the assets the Cavs have because of the deal? It's not a trick question, don't gotta out-think ourselves here.

Even after trading Kyrie the Cavs still made the finals (and lost to GS) which would've been the exact same outcome had they kept Kyrie and watched LeBron walk anyway.

Chronz
07-19-2019, 12:39 AM
Expirings can turn into other assets... Not that summer 2020 is very deep, but still.

Kevin Porter Jr, the 30th pick in this year's draft.

Kyrie walked from the Celtics for nothing. He was gonna get knee surgery and walk from the Cavs for nothing. Having something to show for it is better than nothing. Especially given the Cavs track record of being able to attract top tier free agents.

yeah "but still" doesn't warrant waisting a year of a goat. no having sexton instead of going full in on trying to help a ****ING GOAT win isn't worth it. Hes simply not that special unless (to quote the cleveland fan) you have no semblance of knowledge regarding NBA HISTORY.

Chronz
07-19-2019, 12:43 AM
I would gladly trade all of that right now for a star for 2 years with no guarantee to resign him if I were a playoff team. Like for example if Cavs still had LeBron and were in a position to contend, they would gladly move this package of players for Beal. And most would say the Wizards got robbed.

Cavs don't have anything special, stop over rating this "trade return".

thank you. cleveland fans are jaded far more than clipper fans from their lack of success tbh. yes they have a title, but it came with how many years of a GOAT? LMFAO, the best player I ever saw donning this jersey growing up was like half a year of dominique. after him a post injury CP3 saved us from irrelevancy.

beasted86
07-19-2019, 12:50 AM
I don't think anyone is faulting the Celtics/Ainge for making the trade.

No one is saying the Cavs robbed the Celtics or got an incredible return either.

This is a "2 years later" thread. Right now, would you rather have nothing, or the assets the Cavs have because of the deal? It's not a trick question, don't gotta out-think ourselves here.

Even after trading Kyrie the Cavs still made the finals (and lost to GS) which would've been the exact same outcome had they kept Kyrie and watched LeBron walk anyway.

I would rather gamble that I could keep a 27 year old perennial all-star than have a couple of middling young players and overpaid veterans pushing me into the tax..

Yes, something is better than nothing, if that's what corner you want to paint me into.

Chronz
07-19-2019, 12:58 AM
I would rather gamble that I could keep a 27 year old perennial all-star than have a couple of middling young players and overpaid veterans pushing me into the tax..

Yes, something is better than nothing, if that's what corner you want to paint me into.

lmfao, aren't most around you asleep by now. stop slaying

Vee-Rex
07-19-2019, 01:18 AM
thank you. cleveland fans are jaded far more than clipper fans from their lack of success tbh. yes they have a title, but it came with how many years of a GOAT? LMFAO, the best player I ever saw donning this jersey growing up was like half a year of dominique. after him a post injury CP3 saved us from irrelevancy.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wc1PwAQirU4

lol damn what the hell did the Cavs do to you to make you dislike them so badly?

Vee-Rex
07-19-2019, 01:22 AM
I would rather gamble that I could keep a 27 year old perennial all-star than have a couple of middling young players and overpaid veterans pushing me into the tax..

Yes, something is better than nothing, if that's what corner you want to paint me into.

Kyrie likely walks anyway, with what we know now. Both LeBron and Kyrie are gone.

And in the event that Kyrie decided to stay, I'd rather rebuild than be a treadmill borderline playoff team. Maybe that pisses dudes off like Chronz but tough ****.

Chronz
07-19-2019, 04:17 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wc1PwAQirU4

lol damn what the hell did the Cavs do to you to make you dislike them so badly?

they favored sex over bron

NBA all the way
07-19-2019, 08:37 AM
I would gladly trade all of that right now for a star for 2 years with no guarantee to resign him if I were a playoff team. Like for example if Cavs still had LeBron and were in a position to contend, they would gladly move this package of players for Beal. And most would say the Wizards got robbed.

Cavs don't have anything special, stop over rating this "trade return".

Obviously you would rather have Kyrie than not. But that's not what was at stake. It's would you rather have nothing or the assets you currently have, again the obvious answer is something over nothing.

When LeBron walked the first time the Cavs were left with absolutely nothing, Dan wasn't going to let that happen twice.

NBA all the way
07-19-2019, 08:41 AM
yeah "but still" doesn't warrant waisting a year of a goat. no having sexton instead of going full in on trying to help a ****ING GOAT win isn't worth it. Hes simply not that special unless (to quote the cleveland fan) you have no semblance of knowledge regarding NBA HISTORY.

Well, it's 2 fold man. 1, they already had a ring and a shot at 2 more. If circumstances are different they probably go all in. But with Kyrie wanting out and the writing on the wall LeBron is leaving again, you don't just go all in on win now, that's just nonsensical.

Which it didn't matter because they still made the finals again anyway. The only way anyone was beating that Warriors team was if they were injured, as we all watched this year.

Chronz
07-19-2019, 07:52 PM
Well, it's 2 fold man. 1, they already had a ring and a shot at 2 more. If circumstances are different they probably go all in. But with Kyrie wanting out and the writing on the wall LeBron is leaving again, you don't just go all in on win now, that's just nonsensical.

Which it didn't matter because they still made the finals again anyway. The only way anyone was beating that Warriors team was if they were injured, as we all watched this year.

i would hate for you to be the GM of my team, nothing you said changes my point about Sexton not being worthy of foregoing an honest effort at helping ur GOAT win as best you can. If circumstances were different, Bron never wins them a single chip.

NBA all the way
07-19-2019, 09:07 PM
i would hate for you to be the GM of my team, nothing you said changes my point about Sexton not being worthy of foregoing an honest effort at helping ur GOAT win as best you can. If circumstances were different, Bron never wins them a single chip.

Not true at all man.

Not sure why you insist on looking at this situation in a vacuum, circumstances matter. Oh well.

Chronz
07-20-2019, 09:57 AM
Not true at all man.

Not sure why you insist on looking at this situation in a vacuum, circumstances matter. Oh well.

Tis true all day

Prove Im looking at in a "vacuum" lol, Im accounting for your nonsense, its simply not worth it

NBA all the way
07-20-2019, 11:43 AM
bingo, it was an idiotic trade to begin with, its why Bron begged they didn't trade him. They accomplished neither of the important aspects teams trading stars try to accomplish, they neither got future assets nor did they improve their win now situation. All they got was Sexton who didn't look truly competent until the season was over and we entered the dog days of the NBA. The thinking of no one beating the dubs is truly why they didn't deserve Bron, if that was the mindset Bron should have left immediately after the Chip cuz the team betrayed him thereafter.


run of the mill talent any team could get. expiring contracts? lmfao, you remind me of hawkeye lauding the likes of Kahn for being glorified accountants. whos porter JR? I like Zizic but if this is the "haul" you get for Kyrie (all while strengthening a rival) then its nothing to brag about.


yeah "but still" doesn't warrant waisting[sic] a year of a goat. no having sexton instead of going full in on trying to help a ****ING GOAT win isn't worth it. Hes simply not that special unless (to quote the cleveland fan) you have no semblance of knowledge regarding NBA HISTORY.


i would hate for you to be the GM of my team, nothing you said changes my point about Sexton not being worthy of foregoing an honest effort at helping ur GOAT win as best you can. If circumstances were different, Bron never wins them a single chip.


Tis true all day

Prove Im looking at in a "vacuum" lol, Im accounting for your nonsense, its simply not worth it

Well, first and foremost when you remove all context from a situation, that is almost the exact definition of looking at something in a vacuum, lol

When you say all they got was Sexton not only is it false but it pushes your narrative of trading a 19 year old for LeBron, while excluding all other factors at play.

Further when you say the thinking no one could beat the Dubs... It wasn't a thought, the Cavs literally just went 12-1 in the EC then got smacked by this stacked Warriors squad, who oh by the way would've just 3-peated had they had any semblance of health this season. It was reality!

The Cavs betrayed LBJ, sure man. Again, a false assertion that doesn't match the actual timeline but where should LBJ have went summer of 2016 then? The writing was all over the walls for the entire season before he left that he was leaving if you look at any of his person or professional moves outside of basketball. Think you got it backwards on who betrayed who post-championship.

Then you reverse course and say okay they did get more than just Sexton but since it doesn't fit the narrative you're pushing, you some how throw in something about bragging. It had nothing to do with bragging, it's about squashing the false reality narrative that you created by saying the Cavs did neither things teams try to do, when they traded Kyrie.

They didn't waste a year of LeBron man, they got to the Finals, what more do you want? Them to win it? They just tried that the season before and got smacked. They were still there, regardless of what narrative you are trying to spin. Want to see a season of LeBron wasted? I refer you to the LA Lakers 2018-19 season.

Again, back to this fake narrative of it was Sexton over LeBron, when that was never the case and still isn't. In late July (all contracts just signed can't be traded until December 15th) your star PG says he is going to get knee surgery and sit out the entire season if you don't trade him (he ended up getting knee surgery any way, so with hindsight we know those are facts). What package are you trading Kyrie for? Or you're just going to sit on Kyrie and give LeBron even less help than they actually did? Or wait, does that not fit this narrative of excluding all real life circumstances the Cavs were presented with that you're trying so hard to push?

Also, I think it's reasonable to mention, is 2010 ancient history or something? The Cavs received two late 2nd round picks, a pick swap they didn't use (27th pick). Their first round pick didn't even come until 3 seasons later and it was the 30th pick in the draft. The other 1st round pick didn't come until 3 more season later when LeBron was already back on the Cavs, a full 6 years after his original departure.

The "but still" is in reference to maybe you can't move those expiring contracts or if you can it won't be for as good of pieces because teams aren't lining up for star talent in summer of 2020... But again, they still have young pieces due to the packages from assets in the original trade.

You offer up tons of questions but no answers to these questions, very productive method. I would hate to live in the alternate reality that you do where you disregard facts, history and circumstances.

As I said before, keep on looking at the situation in a vacuum. :facepalm:

Chronz
07-20-2019, 12:00 PM
Well, first and foremost when you remove all context from a situation, that is almost the exact definition of looking at something in a vacuum, lol

lol, prove i removed "all context" from a situation.


When you say all they got was Sexton not only is it false but it pushes your narrative of trading a 19 year old for LeBron, while excluding all other factors at play.

All they got of importance was Sexton. You mentioning ho hum pieces are not significant enough to make a difference



Further when you say the thinking no one could beat the Dubs... It wasn't a thought, the Cavs literally just went 12-1 in the EC then got smacked by this stacked Warriors squad, who oh by the way would've just 3-peated had they had any semblance of health this season. It was reality!

The reality they entrenched themselves into by not emptying the clip. And yes it happened, my point was that I would rather have gone all out and lost than to have given up and had nothing of importance but Sexton to show for my limp approach. Get it yet?


The Cavs betrayed LBJ, sure man. Again, a false assertion that doesn't match the actual timeline but where should LBJ have went summer of 2016 then? The writing was all over the walls for the entire season before he left that he was leaving if you look at any of his person or professional moves outside of basketball. Think you got it backwards on who betrayed who post-championship.

Thats revisionist, if the Cavs truly felt that way then they wouldn't have done this middle route. Bron resigned after the chip, they repaid that by not listening to his requests.


Then you reverse course and say okay they did get more than just Sexton but since it doesn't fit the narrative you're pushing, you some how throw in something about bragging. It had nothing to do with bragging, it's about squashing the false reality narrative that you created by saying the Cavs did neither things teams try to do, when they traded Kyrie.
There was no course correction, my point stood tall just the same, I merely explained to you why that went ignored, because it doesnt change the reality that they didn't accomplish anything by going the middle route.


They didn't waste a year of LeBron man, they got to the Finals, what more do you want?
To go all in on a GOAT and rebuild when hes gone, not play both sides while hes there. How is that so hard for you to understand?


Want to see a season of LeBron wasted? I refer you to the LA Lakers 2018-19 season.

Yeah and they got ANTHONY DAVIS. Cavs got NOTHING but Sexton. Plz dont take this time to regurgitate your originally lol worthy checklist of irrelevant pieces compared to a potential GOAT.


Again, back to this fake narrative of it was Sexton over LeBron, when that was never the case and still isn't. In late July (all contracts just signed can't be traded until December 15th) your star PG says he is going to get knee surgery and sit out the entire season if you don't trade him (he ended up getting knee surgery any way, so with hindsight we know those are facts). What package are you trading Kyrie for? Or you're just going to sit on Kyrie and give LeBron even less help than they actually did? Or wait, does that not fit this narrative of excluding all real life circumstances the Cavs were presented with that you're trying so hard to push?

Yes, I sit on him and appeal to the star player who delivered my team the chip.


Also, I think it's reasonable to mention, is 2010 ancient history or something? The Cavs received two late 2nd round picks, a pick swap they didn't use (27th pick). Their first round pick didn't even come until 3 seasons later and it was the 30th pick in the draft. The other 1st round pick didn't come until 3 more season later when LeBron was already back on the Cavs, a full 6 years after his original departure.
What was this in reference to?




The "but still" is in reference to maybe you can't move those expiring contracts or if you can it won't be for as good of pieces because teams aren't lining up for star talent in summer of 2020... But again, they still have young pieces due to the packages from assets in the original trade.

Agreed, the "but still" doesn't move the needle for me.


You offer up tons of questions but no answers to these questions, very productive method. I would hate to live in the alternate reality that you do where you disregard facts, history and circumstances.

Never been there, you live in a world where irrelevance is vital, hence the mentioning of 2nd rounders in a trade of a star player lmfao. I've disregarded nothing, you've simply done a piss poor job of defending your belief.


As I said before, keep on looking at the situation in a vacuum.
I know you believe that but the truth is, everything was accounted for, it didn't move the needle. Do try again tho

NBA all the way
07-20-2019, 12:44 PM
lol, prove i removed "all context" from a situation.


All they got of importance was Sexton. You mentioning ho hum pieces are not significant enough to make a difference



The reality they entrenched themselves into by not emptying the clip. And yes it happened, my point was that I would rather have gone all out and lost than to have given up and had nothing of importance but Sexton to show for my limp approach. Get it yet?


Thats revisionist, if the Cavs truly felt that way then they wouldn't have done this middle route. Bron resigned after the chip, they repaid that by not listening to his requests.


There was no course correction, my point stood tall just the same, I merely explained to you why that went ignored, because it doesnt change the reality that they didn't accomplish anything by going the middle route.


To go all in on a GOAT and rebuild when hes gone, not play both sides while hes there. How is that so hard for you to understand?


Yeah and they got ANTHONY DAVIS. Cavs got NOTHING but Sexton. Plz dont take this time to regurgitate your originally lol worthy checklist of irrelevant pieces compared to a potential GOAT.


Yes, I sit on him and appeal to the star player who delivered my team the chip.


What was this in reference to?




Agreed, the "but still" doesn't move the needle for me.


Never been there, you live in a world where irrelevance is vital, hence the mentioning of 2nd rounders in a trade of a star player lmfao. I've disregarded nothing, you've simply done a piss poor job of defending your belief.


I know you believe that but the truth is, everything was accounted for, it didn't move the needle. Do try again tho

Your thought process is...

I would hold onto to an injured Kyrie Irving (giving LeBron even less help than he actually ended up with in the 2018 Finals) and watch him and LeBron walk for nothing in free agency THEN start my rebuild with zero assets to do so.

Brilliant bro, just simply brilliant.

/thread

Chronz
07-20-2019, 01:02 PM
Your thought process is...

I would hold onto to an injured Kyrie Irving (giving LeBron even less help than he actually ended up with in the 2018 Finals) and watch him and LeBron walk for nothing in free agency THEN start my rebuild with zero assets to do so.

Brilliant bro, just simply brilliant.

/thread

lol, yes because thats the only possible outcome from listening to Bron. Perhaps in a vacuum lol but there are lots of ways they could have gone thereafter, could've traded him for another package more to Brons liking or upon having traded him, could have flipped those assets for other players more to Brons liking. All I know is they got jack **** to help him that year and didn't get anything truly worth wasting a year of a GOAT for the future. The middle road was less productive. There are a ton of options that dont make the centerpiece an injured midget.

Go all in and then rebuild would've been my route.