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View Full Version : NBA All-Time Redraft Conference Finals - Team UTB vs Seaside Seagulls



valade16
07-01-2019, 08:29 AM
Every year members of PSD get together and have a draft of all the players throughout history. They are then ranked and seeded where a "playoff" determines the winner of the game. This is that playoff. Look over the two teams and vote on which team you think would win in a 7 games series.


Team UTB (Homecourt advantage)

C: Bill Walton - Arvydas Sabonis
PF: Kevin Garnett - Shane Battier
SF: Ron Artest - Doug Christie
SG: Dwyane Wade - Bradley Beal
PG: Mark Price - Patrick Beverley

vs

Team Seaside Seagulls

PG: Chris Paul | Kyrie Irving
SG: Jeff Hornacek | Gilbert Arenas
SF: George Gervin | Derek Harper
PF: Bobby Jones | Jermaine O’Neal
C: Hakeem Olajuwon | Brad Daugherty

valade16
07-01-2019, 12:08 PM
In case it was not obvious I plan to have CP3 guard Wade and Hornacek guard Price.

Quinnsanity
07-01-2019, 02:00 PM
UTB has the best team and I'm sticking with it here.

mightybosstone
07-02-2019, 01:47 PM
So torn on this one. Wade paired with that absurdly talented, versatile frontcourt is hard to beat. But that Paul/Olajuwon pairing makes me genuinely giddy from a hypothetical standpoint.

These are two really well-built basketball teams. The one thing that jumps out to me right now at first glance is how much better Seaside's bench is—like by a lot. It feels like UTB was so focused on getting 3 and D guys for the bench, he forgot he needed guys capable of doing other things. I know that we don't ultimately pay that much attention to the benches in these games, but when the matchups are so close, it helps to have things like that to nitpick.

unleashthebeast
07-02-2019, 04:45 PM
So torn on this one. Wade paired with that absurdly talented, versatile frontcourt is hard to beat. But that Paul/Olajuwon pairing makes me genuinely giddy from a hypothetical standpoint.

These are two really well-built basketball teams. The one thing that jumps out to me right now at first glance is how much better Seaside's bench is—like by a lot. It feels like UTB was so focused on getting 3 and D guys for the bench, he forgot he needed guys capable of doing other things. I know that we don't ultimately pay that much attention to the benches in these games, but when the matchups are so close, it helps to have things like that to nitpick.

This is honestly a pretty wild take about my bench. I admit I do have some 3 and D guys there, but it's not the entire bench. Sabonis was one of the best two way Centers that we had seen, with injury being the only thing to slow him down. Remember when he dominated David Robinson? I am putting a lot of offensive emphasis on my frontcourt, and Sabonis when he is in the game with my bench unit will be used plenty on offense. Brad Beal is also one of the best scorers in the NBA today, and will have no problem scoring on a Hornacek-Arenas-Kyrie backcourt rotation.

Keep in mind also that this is the playoffs. How many minutes really will Price-Wade-Artest-KG-Walton not be on the court? It will be very short bursts and I expect each of them to play at least 36mpg, barring foul trouble.

But I believe my bench is just as good if not better than Valade's in this matchup. Do you really like two chucking guards, an average 3 and D wing, a chucking power forward, and brad daughtery that much more to let it swing a matchup? My starting unit is flat out better and there's no way that THAT bench makes up the difference.

Dunkapolooza
07-03-2019, 02:05 AM
I mean if you want to talk about the length of the game, when Wade comes out of the game your offense is going to have to be carried by Beal or Price. With Beverly and Battier around them? That's a lottery team in the real NBA.

Only two guys on UTB's bench would even sniff a max contract lol. They're real life role players in their prime? Meanwhile Kyrie Irving would be UTB's second best perimeter player. Beal's a nice player but Arenas is arguably better straight up. 3x all nba vs 0?

Gervin is not being given enough credit in this match up. He's one of the greatest wings of all time. This guy finished:

78 - 2nd in MVP
79 - 2nd in MVP
80 - 3rd in MVP
81 - 5th in MVP
82 - 6th in MVP

vs

Wade's best run?

09- 3rd - in mvp
10 - 5th - in mvp
11 - 7th - in mvp

Its a short list of guys who were top 5 guys in the league that long. Unquestionably Gervin was one of the best players on the planet in his prime.

Meanwhile Artest is an offensive safety valve that Seaside doesn't give his opponent. Forcing any shots to peak Metta? (03-08) .523 ts% on 18 pts? That's a win for Seagulls.

valade16
07-03-2019, 08:27 AM
This is honestly a pretty wild take about my bench. I admit I do have some 3 and D guys there, but it's not the entire bench. Sabonis was one of the best two way Centers that we had seen, with injury being the only thing to slow him down. Remember when he dominated David Robinson? I am putting a lot of offensive emphasis on my frontcourt, and Sabonis when he is in the game with my bench unit will be used plenty on offense. Brad Beal is also one of the best scorers in the NBA today, and will have no problem scoring on a Hornacek-Arenas-Kyrie backcourt rotation.

Keep in mind also that this is the playoffs. How many minutes really will Price-Wade-Artest-KG-Walton not be on the court? It will be very short bursts and I expect each of them to play at least 36mpg, barring foul trouble.

But I believe my bench is just as good if not better than Valade's in this matchup. Do you really like two chucking guards, an average 3 and D wing, a chucking power forward, and brad daughtery that much more to let it swing a matchup? My starting unit is flat out better and there's no way that THAT bench makes up the difference.

Really? There is not a single player on your bench as accomplished or as good as Kyrie Irving, and Kyrie is also a better 3PT shooter than anyone on your bench. In fact, your bench is far beneath mine in terms of sheer talent.

Your entire bench has a combined 0 All-NBA appearances. They have 2 All-Star appearances. In an all-time game... 4/5 bench players have all made All-NBA teams.

Sure, this is the playoffs so you'll shorten your rotation and your bench will only play like 12 mins a game supplementing the starters... but that is 1/4th of the entire game. That's a lot of time. And during that time, someone of the caliber of Beverly will be guarding someone of the caliber of Kyrie. Here's how that looks IRL:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&player_id1_hint=kyrie+Irving&player_id1_select=Kyrie+Irving&player_id1=irvinky01&idx=players&player_id2_hint=Patrick+Beverley&player_id2_select=Patrick+Beverley&player_id2=beverpa01&idx=players

Kyrie 24.7 PPG, 5.7 APG, 47.7% FG, 36.4% 3PT

Beverly doesn't slow Kyrie at all. He won't slow Arenas (neither will Christie).

unleashthebeast
07-03-2019, 09:32 AM
Why are we acting like we are playing 10 man rotations? Christie Battier and Sabonis will be getting my bench run, as well as some small spurts for Beal for needed scoring.

We’re losing site of the big talent disparity in this game. His Center is clearly better even though I have a top 8 center of all time who is a terrific two way player, but my forwards are astronomically better and my guards are astronomically better. I have great defense on Hakeem and I have Wade, Artest, Battier and Christie to all throw at CP3 at different times in the game. Talent is not losing out in this matchup.

unleashthebeast
07-03-2019, 09:38 AM
Really? There is not a single player on your bench as accomplished or as good as Kyrie Irving, and Kyrie is also a better 3PT shooter than anyone on your bench. In fact, your bench is far beneath mine in terms of sheer talent.

Your entire bench has a combined 0 All-NBA appearances. They have 2 All-Star appearances. In an all-time game... 4/5 bench players have all made All-NBA teams.

Sure, this is the playoffs so you'll shorten your rotation and your bench will only play like 12 mins a game supplementing the starters... but that is 1/4th of the entire game. That's a lot of time. And during that time, someone of the caliber of Beverly will be guarding someone of the caliber of Kyrie. Here's how that looks IRL:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&player_id1_hint=kyrie+Irving&player_id1_select=Kyrie+Irving&player_id1=irvinky01&idx=players&player_id2_hint=Patrick+Beverley&player_id2_select=Patrick+Beverley&player_id2=beverpa01&idx=players

Kyrie 24.7 PPG, 5.7 APG, 47.7% FG, 36.4% 3PT

Beverly doesn't slow Kyrie at all. He won't slow Arenas (neither will Christie).

If my tenth man determines your vote in this game then so be it. It’s dumb as **** but if that’s what we’re doing, fine. Kyrie can be more “accomplished” but there’s a reason that Christie Battier and Sabonis all get taken either ahead of him or right around him in these games. It benefits a team to have elite role players on their bench, instead of a bunch of guys who have been the best player on mediocre teams. Do we really think Gilbert arenas and Kyrie Irving are going to succeed with a 12mpg bench role? These guys were team leaders and shoot every time they have the ball, what are they doing with Chris Paul dribbling the life out of the ball, or with both of them together on the court? Benches in this game aren’t about points per game averages, they are about fit and filling a role on a team.

valade16
07-03-2019, 10:52 AM
Why are we acting like we are playing 10 man rotations? Christie Battier and Sabonis will be getting my bench run, as well as some small spurts for Beal for needed scoring.

We’re losing site of the big talent disparity in this game. His Center is clearly better even though I have a top 8 center of all time who is a terrific two way player, but my forwards are astronomically better and my guards are astronomically better. I have great defense on Hakeem and I have Wade, Artest, Battier and Christie to all throw at CP3 at different times in the game. Talent is not losing out in this matchup.

I very much disagree on the astronomically part of your characterization. Hakeem and CP3 are 5th and 6th all-time in Postseason PER.

I also think if you look at Gervin's scoring compared to Wade you'll see little difference:

Wade
Career: 33.9 Points Per 100 Possesssions
Peak: 39.2 Points Per 100 Possessions
Career: 55.4 TS%
Peak: 57.2 TS%

Gervin
Career: 34.4 Points Per 100 Possessions
Peak: 39.5 Points Per 100 Possessions
Career: 57.2 TS%
Peak: 56.8 TS%

He scores just as much and is just as efficient as Wade. You have 3 all-time greats (Wade, KG, Walton). I have 3 all-time greats (Hakeem, CP3, Gervin). KG, Wade and Walton were ranked 21st, 27th and 42nd in ESPN's Top 100 all-time. Hakeem, CP3 and Gervin were at 10th, 29th, and 47th. Slam's Top 100 list had Wade 23rd, KG 26th, and Bill Walton 49th. They had Hakeem 12th, CP3 35th and Gervin 44th. CBS Sports had KG 15th, Wade 25th and Walton not even Top 50. They had Hakeem 11th, CP3 21st and Gervin 43rd.

Point is, by almost every measure Hakeem is the best, CP3 is around Wade's ranking and Gervin is ahead of or around Walton's. I have a big 3 every bit as prestigious as yours, but I have the best player.

And for me, my 3 best defenders (all 3 among the top at their positions all-time) are against your Big 3. CP3 to guard Wade, B. Jones to guard KG and Hakeem to guard Walton. My team is deeper, has a big 3, and matches up perfectly against yours.

valade16
07-03-2019, 11:00 AM
If my tenth man determines your vote in this game then so be it. It’s dumb as **** but if that’s what we’re doing, fine. Kyrie can be more “accomplished” but there’s a reason that Christie Battier and Sabonis all get taken either ahead of him or right around him in these games. It benefits a team to have elite role players on their bench, instead of a bunch of guys who have been the best player on mediocre teams. Do we really think Gilbert arenas and Kyrie Irving are going to succeed with a 12mpg bench role? These guys were team leaders and shoot every time they have the ball, what are they doing with Chris Paul dribbling the life out of the ball, or with both of them together on the court? Benches in this game aren’t about points per game averages, they are about fit and filling a role on a team.

There's a reason that the US Olympic team doesn't take a bunch of elite role players and instead takes all star caliber players; the star players are better and can perform the roles that Christie is asked to do better than he ever could. The reason they are role players is they are incapable of doing more, the reason star players are stars is because they can do more. If we asked them to simply do what role players do, they'd do that to a greater ability than the role players. As for being the best player on mediocre teams, Kyrie was the 2nd best player on a Championship team and made one of the most clutch shots in the history of the game to win Cleveland a title.

You have a lot of guys who fill a role on your team. Problem is they all fill the exact same role. There is almost no scoring off your bench. Unless Beal carries it you have to have Wade, Price or KG in at all times and even then, if so much as two of your bench pieces are on the court together your offense plummets. KG is already a bad offensive option in the playoffs (18 PPG on .525 TS% career playoffs, 22.3 PPG on .511 TS% playoffs in Minnesota). Walton never scored much (17/18 PPG at his peak). The more I look at your team the more I realize you are counting on Wade to go off for 35-40 every game to have a chance to beat mine. As good as Wade is, against CP3 with Hakeem in the paint, I don't see that happening.

mightybosstone
07-03-2019, 11:27 AM
This is honestly a pretty wild take about my bench. I admit I do have some 3 and D guys there, but it's not the entire bench. Sabonis was one of the best two way Centers that we had seen, with injury being the only thing to slow him down. Remember when he dominated David Robinson? I am putting a lot of offensive emphasis on my frontcourt, and Sabonis when he is in the game with my bench unit will be used plenty on offense. Brad Beal is also one of the best scorers in the NBA today, and will have no problem scoring on a Hornacek-Arenas-Kyrie backcourt rotation.
OK, but Sabonis came into the league at 31 and was already at the tail end of his basketball career. Peak Daugherty was arguably a little better even. So the Sabonis point is kind of a moot one. Top to bottom, his bench is vastly superior.


Keep in mind also that this is the playoffs. How many minutes really will Price-Wade-Artest-KG-Walton not be on the court? It will be very short bursts and I expect each of them to play at least 36mpg, barring foul trouble.
So that's still up to 60 total minutes of playing time per game that other guys will need to be on the floor. That's 25% of an NBA game barring overtime, and if someone gets into foul trouble or gets banged up, it would be more.


But I believe my bench is just as good if not better than Valade's in this matchup. Do you really like two chucking guards, an average 3 and D wing, a chucking power forward, and brad daughtery that much more to let it swing a matchup? My starting unit is flat out better and there's no way that THAT bench makes up the difference.
Who's running the offense, though when Wade and Price have to sit? Beverley is not a playmaker. I guess you could run everything through Beal and ask Beverley, Battier and Christie to be spot shooters, but that's kind of an underwhelming offensive gameplan. Meanwhile your opponent has two excellent scorers and playmakers in his backcourt on top of two excellent offensive bigs. I just think your overlooked the need for balance on that bench and went with "get as much perimeter defense and floor spacing as possible." It's not a bad strategy, but it feels unnecessary—you don't need three guys in your rotation who do the exact same thing.

unleashthebeast
07-03-2019, 11:48 AM
OK, but Sabonis came into the league at 31 and was already at the tail end of his basketball career. Peak Daugherty was arguably a little better even. So the Sabonis point is kind of a moot one. Top to bottom, his bench is vastly superior.


So that's still up to 60 total minutes of playing time per game that other guys will need to be on the floor. That's 25% of an NBA game barring overtime, and if someone gets into foul trouble or gets banged up, it would be more.


Who's running the offense, though when Wade and Price have to sit? Beverley is not a playmaker. I guess you could run everything through Beal and ask Beverley, Battier and Christie to be spot shooters, but that's kind of an underwhelming offensive gameplan. Meanwhile your opponent has two excellent scorers and playmakers in his backcourt on top of two excellent offensive bigs. I just think your overlooked the need for balance on that bench and went with "get as much perimeter defense and floor spacing as possible." It's not a bad strategy, but it feels unnecessary—you don't need three guys in your rotation who do the exact same thing.

For one, I assume I have peak Sabonis. Everyone knows how good he was before the NBA, strictly using old man Sabonis in this game would be relatively silly.

Secondly, why do Wade and Price have to be on the bench at the same time? That would never occur. You're a Rockets fan, you know how much the Rockets staggered Paul and Harden, especially that first year. Price and Wade will be staggered in this series. Acting like I need my bench to run the offense in this matchup is silly when I have two all time great offense initiators in my starting back court.

mightybosstone
07-03-2019, 12:03 PM
For one, I assume I have peak Sabonis. Everyone knows how good he was before the NBA, strictly using old man Sabonis in this game would be relatively silly.
Mmm.... No. You don't get to play with Sabonis pre-NBA career. If so, that dude would get drafted a hell of a lot earlier in these games than he does. Also, we have no frame of reference for how good he really was before the NBA, because his overseas numbers don't really translate. That being said, his advanced stats were still fantastic in the NBA, but peak Daugherty's are arguably slightly better.


Secondly, why do Wade and Price have to be on the bench at the same time? That would never occur. You're a Rockets fan, you know how much the Rockets staggered Paul and Harden, especially that first year. Price and Wade will be staggered in this series. Acting like I need my bench to run the offense in this matchup is silly when I have two all time great offense initiators in my starting back court.
Never said you had to bench both of them at the same time, but it doesn't hurt to pose the question, does it? I do think Price would get straight up destroyed by whichever guard you put him on, though, which is a little concerning. I tend to think point guard defense is overrated, but when you have a defensive sieve on two of the best offensive guards of this generation, it's definitely a weakness worth mentioning. If you'd had a better two-way point guard off the bench, you would have given yourself a lot more roster flexibility.

Also, are we really going to call Wade an "all-time initiator" now? Dude was a dominant offensive player and a damn good creator, but his career assist numbers and AST% don't really scream "all-time great" in that category.

valade16
07-04-2019, 12:28 PM
Seaside Seagulls win