PDA

View Full Version : Discord in Houston



warfelg
06-17-2019, 12:09 PM
1139973605855518725

Reports of issues between players and DAntoni
Issues between CP3 and Harden
Issues between Morey and Ownership

Thoughts on this?

Vee-Rex
06-17-2019, 12:13 PM
Interesting, but Stephen A Smith?

warfelg
06-17-2019, 12:17 PM
Interesting, but Stephen A Smith?

I canít find the link to the story on my phone but thereís someone much closer thatís got a very in depth story.

unleashthebeast
06-17-2019, 12:31 PM
https://t.co/AgL4sMsPKm

Here is the story from today, Tim MacMahon from ESPN

GREATNESS ONE
06-17-2019, 12:35 PM
Getting traded to Miami CP3

kdspurman
06-17-2019, 12:58 PM
When you're eliminated 3 straight years on your home floor, it's bound to create some tension I'm sure. Especially when the expectations are high.

Wrench
06-17-2019, 12:59 PM
The issue is CP3's contract. I don't think it is trade-able.

They would have to include many 1sts plus good young cheap players to even get a team interested.

mightybosstone
06-17-2019, 01:01 PM
I read McMahon's story today, and it makes some fair points, but I think the bottom line is that a lot of stuff about the team has really gotten blown out of proportion. In the digital age, everyone thinks every little piece of drama is a bigger story than it is. And I don't trust SAS as far as I could throw the guy.

Morey was on the record this morning saying that Paul hasn't requested a trade, and I'll take his word over Smith's 10/10.

beasted86
06-17-2019, 01:28 PM
I read McMahon's story today, and it makes some fair points, but I think the bottom line is that a lot of stuff about the team has really gotten blown out of proportion. In the digital age, everyone thinks every little piece of drama is a bigger story than it is. And I don't trust SAS as far as I could throw the guy.

Morey was on the record this morning saying that Paul hasn't requested a trade, and I'll take his word over Smith's 10/10.

You take homering to a new level. Why would Morey come out and admit Paul wants to be traded? How does that help them trade him if that's the true motive?

I guess you took Morey's word when he denied the Carmelo Anthony release rumors too. https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nba/rockets/2018/11/11/rockets-gm-daryl-morey-denies-carmelo-anthony-release/1971710002/

I have no problem with Morey lying about it (if he is). I have every problem with you drinking his soup just because "Morey says so".

IndyRealist
06-17-2019, 01:46 PM
The stuff between Harden and Paul seems overblown. It's entirely based on like, two post game interviews and some gossip.

The real problem is Ferttita.

-Kobe24-TJ19-
06-17-2019, 01:52 PM
Good luck with that contract lol.

Scoots
06-17-2019, 02:14 PM
Issues between D'Antoni and Morey? Between D'Antoni and ownership? Something is up with D'Antoni's staff being let go.

ChongInc.
06-17-2019, 02:44 PM
If that raps didn't win the ship this year I would be suggesting a Lowry for cp3 trade.

c.c.
06-17-2019, 02:48 PM
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VQV6yooqVTo

Some how Morey got a third star in the world to come to Houston 🚀

mightybosstone
06-17-2019, 02:49 PM
You take homering to a new level. Why would Morey come out and admit Paul wants to be traded? How does that help them trade him if that's the true motive?

I guess you took Morey's word when he denied the Carmelo Anthony release rumors too. https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nba/rockets/2018/11/11/rockets-gm-daryl-morey-denies-carmelo-anthony-release/1971710002/

I have no problem with Morey lying about it (if he is). I have every problem with you drinking his soup just because "Morey says so".

First off, I do think Morey has shopped Paul. I absolutely do, so don't call me a homer and suggest that I take everything every one of my favorite teams' front office guys say at face value. I don'tóI have a brain.

I also think that Paul's contract is impossible to move in a way that makes the Rockets better on paper (as I've said multiple times in recent weeks), and Morey knows that after doing his due diligence the last few weeks in making calls.

Paul might have disagreed with Harden at points last season and may not like that Morey made calls about him, but being a little disgruntled and outright telling your GM "trade me" are two completely different things. Paul is an adult and a true professionalóhe's not going to do that. So when Morey says "Paul has not requested a trade," I do believe he's being honest about that.

I don't think that's an absurd thing to assume Morey's being honest about.

mightybosstone
06-17-2019, 02:55 PM
The stuff between Harden and Paul seems overblown. It's entirely based on like, two post game interviews and some gossip.
:nod:


The real problem is Ferttita.
I agree with this to an extent in that he definitely lowballed MDA. But I wouldn't even really call him a "problem" at this point. The guy is interested in results, and when the whole team no-shows like they did in the Warriors series, he has a right as the owner to want to look at the team and go "What do we need to fix?"

The issue I have is the wishy washy attitude about D'Antoni. Either pay the man and build a staff that works around what he and stars want to accomplish, or cut ties with him altogether and let's build the coaching staff from scratch if they think there's someone out there who could do better.


Issues between D'Antoni and Morey? Between D'Antoni and ownership? Something is up with D'Antoni's staff being let go.
The Bzdelik thing didn't surprise me. He already retired before the start of last season before Fertita convinced him to come back mid-year, so he was probably on his way out anyway. The rest of the staff, though, felt a little odd. I can understand wanting to make changes after failing the way the Rockets did, but cleaning house like that when you're still trying to figure out your head coaching situation feels strange.

Hopefully they can get an extension worked out with MDA and get a coaching staff built around him that works. I'm still of the belief that Mike is one of the better coaches in the NBA and there aren't championship caliber coaches growing on trees. Given all the issues the Warriors are having with injuries, the Rockets' window just opened up a little more for this seasonóthey just have to not screw it up like they did last year.

SfgiantsJD3
06-17-2019, 03:32 PM
All 5 staying plus trying to add talent which makes sense with the Warriors decimated
https://www.hoopsrumors.com/2019/06/rockets-plan-to-keep-spending-add-another-top-player.html

mightybosstone
06-17-2019, 04:07 PM
All 5 staying plus trying to add talent which makes sense with the Warriors decimated
https://www.hoopsrumors.com/2019/06/rockets-plan-to-keep-spending-add-another-top-player.html

This is one statement Morey made where I don't believe for a second he's telling the truth. I absolutely think he's shopping his starters other than Harden right now (and maybe Tucker). If there was a deal out there where he could trade all four of those guys (sans Harden obviously) that would make the team better, he would do it in a heartbeat.

There's been a lot of smoke surrounding the Rockets and Celtics, with one supposed "insider" stating in the last couple of days that the Rockets and Horford have show mutual interest. A Capela/Horford swap would make a ton of sense on paper. But that's just one possibility. There will be other rumors before the offseason is done, and I wouldn't be shocked if one or more of them became a reality.

beasted86
06-17-2019, 04:25 PM
First off, I do think Morey has shopped Paul. I absolutely do, so don't call me a homer and suggest that I take everything every one of my favorite teams' front office guys say at face value. I don'tóI have a brain.

I also think that Paul's contract is impossible to move in a way that makes the Rockets better on paper (as I've said multiple times in recent weeks), and Morey knows that after doing his due diligence the last few weeks in making calls.

Paul might have disagreed with Harden at points last season and may not like that Morey made calls about him, but being a little disgruntled and outright telling your GM "trade me" are two completely different things. Paul is an adult and a true professionalóhe's not going to do that. So when Morey says "Paul has not requested a trade," I do believe he's being honest about that.

I don't think that's an absurd thing to assume Morey's being honest about.

Homers gotta homer I guess. As Teddy KGB said: It will all be over soon.

I predict they do not run back this lineup and instead find a taker for CP3 before the season starts.

mightybosstone
06-17-2019, 04:46 PM
Homers gotta homer I guess. As Teddy KGB said: It will all be over soon.

I predict they do not run back this lineup and instead find a taker for CP3 before the season starts.

Care to make a sig bet? I'm fairly certain he'll be a Rocket.

Side note, but weren't you one of the guys who believed the earth was flat during that whole Kyrie Irving statement thing? I could be wrong, but I don't think I am...

Chronz
06-17-2019, 06:41 PM
Care to make a sig bet? I'm fairly certain he'll be a Rocket.

Side note, but weren't you one of the guys who believed the earth was flat during that whole Kyrie Irving statement thing? I could be wrong, but I don't think I am...

thats not beasteds style, but feel free to tell us how you're not wrong and what that has to do with anything

beasted86
06-17-2019, 06:53 PM
Care to make a sig bet? I'm fairly certain he'll be a Rocket.

Side note, but weren't you one of the guys who believed the earth was flat during that whole Kyrie Irving statement thing? I could be wrong, but I don't think I am...

Yes, you're wrong.

And, no, I don't care enough to bet.

SfgiantsJD3
06-17-2019, 07:58 PM
snipped
So when Morey says "Paul has not requested a trade," I do believe he's being honest about that.

I don't think that's an absurd thing to assume Morey's being honest about.

But Paul's agent could have requested it and that statement would be true.

Chronz
06-18-2019, 12:26 AM
Yes, you're wrong.

And, no, I don't care enough to bet.

remember the time i mistook you for that other crazy "HEAT" fan?

More-Than-Most
06-18-2019, 12:38 AM
for the love of god stay away from the sixers with that contract

More-Than-Most
06-18-2019, 12:41 AM
there is a really high risk/good reward move they could make if they really want to drive this ship forward.... trade for the rights to cousins from the warriors if the warriors would even do that.

Chronz
06-18-2019, 01:21 AM
there is a really high risk/good reward move they could make if they really want to drive this ship forward.... trade for the rights to cousins from the warriors if the warriors would even do that.

LOL, wtf.


-------------------------


There is 1 move, trade him back to NOLA for Ball, Moore, Hill and take all of Houstons future picks too.

More-Than-Most
06-18-2019, 01:31 AM
LOL, wtf.


-------------------------


There is 1 move, trade him back to NOLA for Ball, Moore, Hill and take all of Houstons future picks too.

there is 0 chance the pelicans do this... they cant sign cousins outright because of their cap and cousins isnt taking the minimum even if after an injury... cousins/harden could do some **** if cousins is remotely back to himself... its a huge risk but they refuse to rebuild... personally if i were them id trade cp3 and harden and get a **** ton asap but they will never do it... someone stupid will take cp3 and that contract but for them to now get past a lakers squad cousins/harden combo could help with that.


as long as the rockets have harden Rockets picks will be ***... they cant give up a ton of them either because do they even have all of them?

Chronz
06-18-2019, 01:40 AM
there is 0 chance the pelicans do this... they cant sign cousins outright because of their cap and cousins isnt taking the minimum even if after an injury... cousins/harden could do some **** if cousins is remotely back to himself... its a huge risk but they refuse to rebuild... personally if i were them id trade cp3 and harden and get a **** ton asap but they will never do it... someone stupid will take cp3 and that contract but for them to now get past a lakers squad cousins/harden combo could help with that.


as long as the rockets have harden Rockets picks will be ***... they cant give up a ton of them either because do they even have all of them?

Your trade is illegal bud.

CP3 coming home would be a good sell. that or he goes to whatever team strikes out on free agents and wants to pay for some picks

More-Than-Most
06-18-2019, 01:49 AM
Your trade is illegal bud.

CP3 coming home would be a good sell. that or he goes to whatever team strikes out on free agents and wants to pay for some picks

How is trading for the rights to cousins whom is a free agent illegal? He is walking and the warriors can get something for him while houston then could sign him even though they are strap capped because they traded for him? I am legit asking

I dont see other win now avenues for the rockets to get better... cousins might be that 1 area they could go

mightybosstone
06-18-2019, 07:07 AM
thats not beasteds style, but feel free to tell us how you're not wrong and what that has to do with anything


Yes, you're wrong.

And, no, I don't care enough to bet.

My apologies. But I really, really loathe the insinuation that I'm a homer. There's a massive difference between being a little more optimistic toward the team you love than an NBA fan who doesn't root for your team (that's a given if you root for any team) and being a "homer." That term gets thrown around far too lightly on this site, and I've posted here long enough to prove I can be relatively objective in most Rockets conversations.

Calling someone a homer is a question of their character and intelligence, so if you're going to question mine, I've got to question yours.

mightybosstone
06-18-2019, 07:14 AM
As for CP3, he's not going to be dealt simply because there isn't a trade out there that exists that would make the Rockets better if he's gone. Most teams with cap space are young and rebuilding, so why would they trade their good young assets for Paul? And the Lakers were one of the few teams on paper that made sense, but given how little salary they have now and their dwindling cap space, that deal is next to impossible now unless Paul takes a massive pay cut.

warfelg
06-18-2019, 07:27 AM
Usually where there's smoke there's fire.

Oakmont_4
06-18-2019, 09:08 AM
As for CP3, he's not going to be dealt simply because there isn't a trade out there that exists that would make the Rockets better if he's gone. Most teams with cap space are young and rebuilding, so why would they trade their good young assets for Paul? And the Lakers were one of the few teams on paper that made sense, but given how little salary they have now and their dwindling cap space, that deal is next to impossible now unless Paul takes a massive pay cut.

He canít even take a paycut. Even if he offered to. NBA contracts canít be restructured.

Hawkeye15
06-18-2019, 09:49 AM
I read McMahon's story today, and it makes some fair points, but I think the bottom line is that a lot of stuff about the team has really gotten blown out of proportion. In the digital age, everyone thinks every little piece of drama is a bigger story than it is. And I don't trust SAS as far as I could throw the guy.

Morey was on the record this morning saying that Paul hasn't requested a trade, and I'll take his word over Smith's 10/10.

absolutely agree. Where can CP3 go to, that can absorb his deal, and have a better chance? The west is legit open for business next season, and the Rockets were the 2nd best team by a mile. Why not give it one more shot?

smith&wesson
06-18-2019, 11:17 AM
If Morey didnít think it was a bad idea to trade for paul in the first place then I question his vision.

smith&wesson
06-18-2019, 11:21 AM
absolutely agree. Where can CP3 go to, that can absorb his deal, and have a better chance? The west is legit open for business next season, and the Rockets were the 2nd best team by a mile. Why not give it one more shot?

Youíre right, but he and Harden are not a good fit. I personally thought Harden was incredible as pg the season prior to Houston acquiring Paul. Beverly may not have the star name like Paul does but he was a great fit beside Harden because hardens defence leaves so much to be desired. I donít see how Harden and Paul would be successful as a tandem. Especially with Paulís contract which gets in the way of Morey improving the team around them.

SfgiantsJD3
06-18-2019, 01:28 PM
Usually where there's smoke there's fire.

But the smoke / fire started before Durant and Klay went down, that changes everything, Houston should be a top 1-3 seed next year

mightybosstone
06-18-2019, 01:43 PM
If Morey didnít think it was a bad idea to trade for paul in the first place then I question his vision.

Youíre right, but he and Harden are not a good fit.
:confused: I have major, major issues with this statement. In 2017-18, the Rockets won 65 freaking games, easily the best record in franchise history with the highest point differential and SRS of any Rockets team in the history of the franchise. They also came closer to the Finals than any team since 1997 (over 20 years).

Then last season, after the failed Melo experiment led to them starting 11-14, they rebounded by going 42-15 the rest of the way, which included the best record in the entire league after the All-Star break. So if you take out that rough 25-game start, the Rockets with Harden and Paul have gone 107-32 or a 75.4% win percentage. That's insane!

Sure, they didn't make the finals, but they also lost to the Warriors both times, and they have the best record against Golden State the last two seasons of any team in the league.


I personally thought Harden was incredible as pg the season prior to Houston acquiring Paul. Beverly may not have the star name like Paul does but he was a great fit beside Harden because hardens defence leaves so much to be desired.
Yeah, and that team wasn't remotely as good, chief. Believe me, I watched them. The problem with Harden as the only primary ball-handler is that the Rockets' bench was crap, and he was having to do everything on every possession. So if he needed to take a play off, their offense was garbage, and the second he sat they'd get blown out until he checked back in.


I donít see how Harden and Paul would be successful as a tandem.
Again.... 107-32. Best team in franchise history. Lost to the Warriors twice. I'd say they've been pretty damn good.


Especially with Paulís contract which gets in the way of Morey improving the team around them.
Yeah, his contract is bad. But if they had let Paul walk, they wouldn't have had the cap room to sign another star player, and that team would have been mediocre as hell last season. Another player of CP3's caliber wasn't going to walk in the door as Paul was exiting to replace him.

I wish Paul had been better last season, but even in his declined state, he's probably one of the 25-30 best players in the league (at least top 40). And with the Warriors looking looking super banged up next season, they've got as good a chance as anyone right now to win the West.

Hawkeye15
06-18-2019, 02:06 PM
Youíre right, but he and Harden are not a good fit. I personally thought Harden was incredible as pg the season prior to Houston acquiring Paul. Beverly may not have the star name like Paul does but he was a great fit beside Harden because hardens defence leaves so much to be desired. I donít see how Harden and Paul would be successful as a tandem. Especially with Paulís contract which gets in the way of Morey improving the team around them.

to be fair, if we were talking about CP3 from even 3 years ago, all of this would likely be an exercise. Paul is a horrible fit because he is half the player he used to be making twice the money. I do understand your fit argument, but talent general prevails, and CP3 is no longer elite. Hell he isn't even a remote chance at all NBA anymore.

Hawkeye15
06-18-2019, 02:07 PM
:confused: I have major, major issues with this statement. In 2017-18, the Rockets won 65 freaking games, easily the best record in franchise history with the highest point differential and SRS of any Rockets team in the history of the franchise. They also came closer to the Finals than any team since 1997 (over 20 years).

Then last season, after the failed Melo experiment led to them starting 11-14, they rebounded by going 42-15 the rest of the way, which included the best record in the entire league after the All-Star break. So if you take out that rough 25-game start, the Rockets with Harden and Paul have gone 107-32 or a 75.4% win percentage. That's insane!

Sure, they didn't make the finals, but they also lost to the Warriors both times, and they have the best record against Golden State the last two seasons of any team in the league.


Yeah, and that team wasn't remotely as good, chief. Believe me, I watched them. The problem with Harden as the only primary ball-handler is that the Rockets' bench was crap, and he was having to do everything on every possession. So if he needed to take a play off, their offense was garbage, and the second he sat they'd get blown out until he checked back in.


Again.... 107-32. Best team in franchise history. Lost to the Warriors twice. I'd say they've been pretty damn good.


Yeah, his contract is bad. But if they had let Paul walk, they wouldn't have had the cap room to sign another star player, and that team would have been mediocre as hell last season. Another player of CP3's caliber wasn't going to walk in the door as Paul was exiting to replace him.

I wish Paul had been better last season, but even in his declined state, he's probably one of the 25-30 best players in the league (at least top 40). And with the Warriors looking looking super banged up next season, they've got as good a chance as anyone right now to win the West.

exactly dude, the Dubs are done. If the Rockets can just sustain, they are easily favorites to represent the west in the finals.

beasted86
06-18-2019, 02:08 PM
There are a couple teams that would still have interest in Paul.

Utah Jazz can't attract free agents. They're overpaying bums like Exum as a result. They'd definitely entertain a Paul trade to pair with Mitchell. Would make Gobert, Ingles and the others better players.

They could literally absorb him without taking anything back. The Rockets them go back to Pat Beverly and offer him the full MLE.

LeonFSU
06-18-2019, 02:09 PM
But the smoke / fire started before Durant and Klay went down, that changes everything, Houston should be a top 1-3 seed next year

Maybe they should be, but I'm not convinced they will be yet. Way to early to tell. Gotta see how the rest of the offseason plays out, at least.

Scoots
06-18-2019, 02:12 PM
My apologies. But I really, really loathe the insinuation that I'm a homer. There's a massive difference between being a little more optimistic toward the team you love than an NBA fan who doesn't root for your team (that's a given if you root for any team) and being a "homer." That term gets thrown around far too lightly on this site, and I've posted here long enough to prove I can be relatively objective in most Rockets conversations.

Calling someone a homer is a question of their character and intelligence, so if you're going to question mine, I've got to question yours.

I agree. The other element of following a team is that you are much more likely to have more current and complete information about the team than someone who is not a follower of a team. But if you try to provide that information you are called a homer even though you are stating facts that are not particularly for or against your team, it's just information that is not widely known.

Scoots
06-18-2019, 02:13 PM
As for CP3, he's not going to be dealt simply because there isn't a trade out there that exists that would make the Rockets better if he's gone. Most teams with cap space are young and rebuilding, so why would they trade their good young assets for Paul? And the Lakers were one of the few teams on paper that made sense, but given how little salary they have now and their dwindling cap space, that deal is next to impossible now unless Paul takes a massive pay cut.

The only possible way he gets traded if is the culture is made toxic by CP3 and Harden being together. That seems very unlikely though.

mightybosstone
06-18-2019, 02:26 PM
There are a couple teams that would still have interest in Paul.

Utah Jazz can't attract free agents. They're overpaying bums like Exum as a result. They'd definitely entertain a Paul trade to pair with Mitchell. Would make Gobert, Ingles and the others better players.

They could literally absorb him without taking anything back. The Rockets them go back to Pat Beverly and offer him the full MLE.

OK, propose a Utah deal in which Paul leaves and the Rockets don't get substantially worse or have to give up first round draft picks along the way. And then sit back and look at that trade and ask yourself "Does this Rockets team with Beverley and these random Utah role players look better on paper than the Rockets with Chris Paul?" If you're being honest, the answer is "no." So why should the Rockets make that deal? And why should Utah take on Paul's contract without getting draft picks in return?

mightybosstone
06-18-2019, 02:31 PM
exactly dude, the Dubs are done. If the Rockets can just sustain, they are easily favorites to represent the west in the finals.
For sure. The one wild card being free agency and what happens with the top 5-6 free agents. If the Lakers add Kawhi, Butler or Kemba, for example, that team would be pretty damn formidable. But assuming the Lakers don't add another guy and Kawhi stays in Toronto, I'd put Houston at the top of the conference right now.


I agree. The other element of following a team is that you are much more likely to have more current and complete information about the team than someone who is not a follower of a team. But if you try to provide that information you are called a homer even though you are stating facts that are not particularly for or against your team, it's just information that is not widely known.
:nod: This, so much this. I was actually listening to Morey on sports talk radio in Houston this morning, and he was commenting on how absurd the whole "Rockets turmoil" thing has been the last few weeks and how much the D'Antoni contract situation and the little tiff between Harden and Paul has got blown out of proportion. He honestly laughed about it.

But I say that on an internet sports forum, and if I believe him, I'm automatically a homer. :shrug:


The only possible way he gets traded if is the culture is made toxic by CP3 and Harden being together. That seems very unlikely though.
For sure. And while that's not impossible, I don't think either guy has the type of personality where they would publicly ask to get dealt or let the feud become a huge media circus. Frankly, I'm surprised it's gotten as big as it has.

smith&wesson
06-18-2019, 02:55 PM
:confused: I have major, major issues with this statement. In 2017-18, the Rockets won 65 freaking games, easily the best record in franchise history with the highest point differential and SRS of any Rockets team in the history of the franchise. They also came closer to the Finals than any team since 1997 (over 20 years).

Then last season, after the failed Melo experiment led to them starting 11-14, they rebounded by going 42-15 the rest of the way, which included the best record in the entire league after the All-Star break. So if you take out that rough 25-game start, the Rockets with Harden and Paul have gone 107-32 or a 75.4% win percentage. That's insane!

Sure, they didn't make the finals, but they also lost to the Warriors both times, and they have the best record against Golden State the last two seasons of any team in the league.


Yeah, and that team wasn't remotely as good, chief. Believe me, I watched them. The problem with Harden as the only primary ball-handler is that the Rockets' bench was crap, and he was having to do everything on every possession. So if he needed to take a play off, their offense was garbage, and the second he sat they'd get blown out until he checked back in.


Again.... 107-32. Best team in franchise history. Lost to the Warriors twice. I'd say they've been pretty damn good.


Yeah, his contract is bad. But if they had let Paul walk, they wouldn't have had the cap room to sign another star player, and that team would have been mediocre as hell last season. Another player of CP3's caliber wasn't going to walk in the door as Paul was exiting to replace him.

I wish Paul had been better last season, but even in his declined state, he's probably one of the 25-30 best players in the league (at least top 40). And with the Warriors looking looking super banged up next season, they've got as good a chance as anyone right now to win the West.

Regular season wins mean very little. The raptors were a 50+ win team every year (59 last year) their record in that span is probably really good. But what did to mean when they kept running in to the cavs much like the rockets kept running in to the warriors?

Hereís some examples:
The bucks had the best record in the league and were a 2nd round exit this year
the raptors won 59 games and were 2nd or 3rd round exit every year. Until they got Kahwi
The hawks were a 60 win team and were a 2nd or 3rd round exit.

Weíve seen plenty of these teams who excel in the regular season and fall short in the post season, as we know teams get exposed in the playoffs. Houston will never get over the hump with a Paul and Harden tandem.

I love Capela, Tucker, Gordon they all play their roles very well. Harden is the corner stone. Paul is the odd man out. If his contract wasnít so atrocious I think heíd be traded already.

With respect to Harden, the rockets didnít really have a secondary star when Harden was running point. It wasnít just a lack of ball handlers or play making it was a general lack of talent. I believe you, that the team is better when Harden wasnít running point, however if they kept the Beverly and Harden back court there would be a bigger need at the 3-4.

even now I think if Paul could be moved for an upgrade at one of those position the Rockets should look in to it. Paulís contract makes it really difficult as you already mentioned

smith&wesson
06-18-2019, 03:02 PM
to be fair, if we were talking about CP3 from even 3 years ago, all of this would likely be an exercise. Paul is a horrible fit because he is half the player he used to be making twice the money. I do understand your fit argument, but talent general prevails, and CP3 is no longer elite. Hell he isn't even a remote chance at all NBA anymore.

Oh donít get me wrong, Paul in his prime on a better contract is a diff player and situation all together. I still wouldnít select him as Hardens co but i def agree the situation would be better. Especially if Paul could be traded for another star that would fit better with the team. Right now Paul is probably unmovable.

smith&wesson
06-18-2019, 03:19 PM
exactly dude, the Dubs are done. If the Rockets can just sustain, they are easily favorites to represent the west in the finals.

The dubs arenít done... but even if they were the Lakers are just getting started. But the warriors just have to get back to the playoffs. if KD and Klay stay theyíll get healthy eventually.

Chronz
06-18-2019, 03:36 PM
I think the Rockets would be ok taking a step back now for the future

beasted86
06-18-2019, 04:08 PM
OK, propose a Utah deal in which Paul leaves and the Rockets don't get substantially worse or have to give up first round draft picks along the way. And then sit back and look at that trade and ask yourself "Does this Rockets team with Beverley and these random Utah role players look better on paper than the Rockets with Chris Paul?" If you're being honest, the answer is "no." So why should the Rockets make that deal? And why should Utah take on Paul's contract without getting draft picks in return?

Better is subjective. Avoid repeater taxes? Check. Allow to retool with cap space quicker? Check. Younger? Check. Better defense? Check.

Trading Paul doesn't have to be the only move. If you're asking from a pure talent perspective, you're right, my trade in a vacuum decreases the Rockets talent if that's the only trade made.

WaDe03
06-18-2019, 04:41 PM
1141081451888304129

I like goodwill. I guess itíll be CP3 leaving obviously.

WaDe03
06-18-2019, 05:15 PM
Paul demanded a trade and harden told management to pick between the 2.

kdspurman
06-18-2019, 05:23 PM
1141081451888304129

I like goodwill. I guess itíll be CP3 leaving obviously.

Where there's smoke....

Dade County
06-18-2019, 05:32 PM
Paul demanded a trade and harden told management to pick between the 2.

No one should want to go play with Harden. How your team mate trying to help you out & tells you the truth, and you reply, "get pass your man".

Notice, no mention of defense LMAO

But for real though, Harden will be the New Melo in 2yrs.

Cal827
06-18-2019, 05:37 PM
Man, CP3 really is a team cancer :laugh2:

First NO, then LAC, now HOU

Sorry Rocket fans...

Though it's a really stupid cause the team is successful. I mean as much as I joke around about Harden, he's extremely valuable to the team and likely has had a legitimate case for MVP for the past 5 years (winning it once). Clearly the offense would generally run through him. If he would just put up with his ego/being the number 2 guy, the Rockets could very well win the West next year with most of the same roster (Since the Warriors will be hurt, and IMO it's wait and see on the Lakers and if Davis can become a stretch 4 well enough/talent acquisition to support the two superstars).

Also, who the hell is gonna take that contract back? Isn't it 40mil/yr for 3 more years? It's going to be REALLY hard to match, and Most possible future title contenders (E.g. Philly, poss (Toronto), Denver, Portland), either have a PG leading the team already, or have a guy who can run the offense or are going after younger FAs in the offseason that are probably better (E.g. LA chasing Walker/Irving, and they already have Lebron)... Doubt the Clippers will allow him back after he turned his back on a verbal agreement they had on an extension + the secret room debacle.

Could New York go chase out of desperation? I doubt it cause they have some good key pieces to build around if they strike out in FA...


Also, this is the 2nd fight for Harden with another star :laugh2: ****.... More and more, I understand/appreciate the Lack of Ego with guys like Steph Curry and Dwyane Wade if it meant winning titles :laugh2:

smith&wesson
06-18-2019, 06:30 PM
Man, CP3 really is a team cancer :laugh2:

First NO, then LAC, now HOU

Sorry Rocket fans...

Though it's a really stupid cause the team is successful. I mean as much as I joke around about Harden, he's extremely valuable to the team and likely has had a legitimate case for MVP for the past 5 years (winning it once). Clearly the offense would generally run through him. If he would just put up with his ego/being the number 2 guy, the Rockets could very well win the West next year with most of the same roster (Since the Warriors will be hurt, and IMO it's wait and see on the Lakers and if Davis can become a stretch 4 well enough/talent acquisition to support the two superstars).

Also, who the hell is gonna take that contract back? Isn't it 40mil/yr for 3 more years? It's going to be REALLY hard to match, and Most possible future title contenders (E.g. Philly, poss (Toronto), Denver, Portland), either have a PG leading the team already, or have a guy who can run the offense or are going after younger FAs in the offseason that are probably better (E.g. LA chasing Walker/Irving, and they already have Lebron)... Doubt the Clippers will allow him back after he turned his back on a verbal agreement they had on an extension + the secret room debacle.

Could New York go chase out of desperation? I doubt it cause they have some good key pieces to build around if they strike out in FA...


Also, this is the 2nd fight for Harden with another star :laugh2: ****.... More and more, I understand/appreciate the Lack of Ego with guys like Steph Curry and Dwyane Wade if it meant winning titles :laugh2:

who would be the number one option ?

Cal827
06-18-2019, 06:38 PM
who would be the number one option ?

Sorry, I meant to say that Harden would be main option

mightybosstone
06-18-2019, 06:49 PM
Regular season wins mean very little. The raptors were a 50+ win team every year (59 last year) their record in that span is probably really good. But what did to mean when they kept running in to the cavs much like the rockets kept running in to the warriors?
Warriors >>>> Lebron's Cavs. When you have a team that historically dominant, you can't really judge a team's success by "did they win the title or not?" That's unfair. The Rockets played Golden State better the last two years than any other team in the NBA prior to their major injury issues this postseason that benefitted the Raptors. Bottom line, if the Warriors didn't exist, the Rockets would have been champions last season.


Hereís some examples:
The bucks had the best record in the league and were a 2nd round exit this year
the raptors won 59 games and were 2nd or 3rd round exit every year. Until they got Kahwi
The hawks were a 60 win team and were a 2nd or 3rd round exit.
The Bucks actually got knocked out in the Conference Finals. Also, the Rockets took a historically great team to 7 games in the conference finals last year. I'd call that a success. This year, probably not so much.


Weíve seen plenty of these teams who excel in the regular season and fall short in the post season, as we know teams get exposed in the playoffs. Houston will never get over the hump with a Paul and Harden tandem.
We don't know that, actually. Now that the Warriors are facing massive injury obstacles this season, their path to the finals looks pretty different.


I love Capela, Tucker, Gordon they all play their roles very well. Harden is the corner stone. Paul is the odd man out. If his contract wasnít so atrocious I think heíd be traded already.
Paul is the second playmaker. That role is critical on this team. Even if Paul is traded, the Rockets aren't going anywhere without a second legitimate ball handler and playmaker.


With respect to Harden, the rockets didnít really have a secondary star when Harden was running point. It wasnít just a lack of ball handlers or play making it was a general lack of talent. I believe you, that the team is better when Harden wasnít running point, however if they kept the Beverly and Harden back court there would be a bigger need at the 3-4.
"Running point" is an overrated phrase in today's NBA. You don't need one traditional point guard who runs everything. You just need guys who can create for other, period. Harden's game hasn't changed that drastically since Paul came on board. He's doing a lot of the same things he did that first season with D'Antoni; Paul just helps him get a break every now and then so the offense doesn't have to run through him every single play.


even now I think if Paul could be moved for an upgrade at one of those position the Rockets should look in to it. Paulís contract makes it really difficult as you already mentioned
If they could trade his contract and get better? Sure, I'm not totally opposed to it. But, again, they would either need another guy to create for the team offensively OR they'd need to alter their offense dramatically to incorporate way more ball movement so Harden isn't creating the offense on every single play.

mightybosstone
06-18-2019, 06:51 PM
On this totally bogus story from Yahoo, I feel like this response from Paul is fairly relevant...

1141095504064987136

mightybosstone
06-18-2019, 07:04 PM
Man, CP3 really is a team cancer :laugh2:

First NO, then LAC, now HOU

Sorry Rocket fans...
Can you really say that about Paul? I don't remember him ever being considered a team cancer in his careerófar from it. If anything, the guy has been the model team leader in most cases. He hasn't gotten along with everyone, but calling him a cancer seems harsh.


Also, this is the 2nd fight for Harden with another star :laugh2: ****.... More and more, I understand/appreciate the Lack of Ego with guys like Steph Curry and Dwyane Wade if it meant winning titles :laugh2:
IF this is true (which I still seriously debate, even moreso now that Paul has called BS on it), I could see where people are coming from with this. But consider the first "superstar" you're referring to. Dwight is on his sixth team in nine years. He's clashed with multiple coaching staffs and front offices and has developed a reputation for never taking anything seriously. In Houston, he refused to run the pick and roll and only wanted to get the ball in the post, because he thought he was freaking Kareem.

I'm not saying that he and Harden didn't get along, but we don't really know why. And there's way more evidence to suggest that Dwight was the problem in Houston than Harden given Dwight's history. Everything I've ever read about Harden seems to suggest he gets along with most players and is a relatively chill dude. He certainly never had any issues getting along with Durant or Westbrook in OKC, and he's played for Team USA for years.

Scoots
06-18-2019, 09:11 PM
For sure. The one wild card being free agency and what happens with the top 5-6 free agents. If the Lakers add Kawhi, Butler or Kemba, for example, that team would be pretty damn formidable. But assuming the Lakers don't add another guy and Kawhi stays in Toronto, I'd put Houston at the top of the conference right now.


:nod: This, so much this. I was actually listening to Morey on sports talk radio in Houston this morning, and he was commenting on how absurd the whole "Rockets turmoil" thing has been the last few weeks and how much the D'Antoni contract situation and the little tiff between Harden and Paul has got blown out of proportion. He honestly laughed about it.

But I say that on an internet sports forum, and if I believe him, I'm automatically a homer. :shrug:


For sure. And while that's not impossible, I don't think either guy has the type of personality where they would publicly ask to get dealt or let the feud become a huge media circus. Frankly, I'm surprised it's gotten as big as it has.

Morey is one of the better GMs to listen talk about the game. He has an interesting perspective and he doesn't tend to BS much.

kobe4thewinbang
06-18-2019, 09:47 PM
Saw this today:

https://www.hoopsrumors.com/2019/06/harden-paul-relationship-described-as-unsalvageable.html

It actually says CP3's contract is "one of the last team friendly" deals out there.

But I never really understood the fit, especially last season when they went 100% ISO with Harden.

You can't even compare 2018-2019 Harden to 2017-18 Harden. A lot less passing for sure.

(16-17: 11.2apg)
17-18: 8.8apg
18-19: 7.5apg

The team has changed a lot. You no longer see Gordon or the likes of Ryan Anderson just letting it fly. I was amazed at Harden's ability to distribute that one year, but lately it ain't been the style in Houston. Factor in that Harden is averaging 5 turnovers per game compared to 5.7 in his 11.2apg year.

I never liked the acquisition, honestly. Chris Paul never had any great moments as a Rocket, nor has he stayed healthy. Only 58 games played in his two seasons with Houston so far. I got Blake Griffin vibes when they re-signed him.

smith&wesson
06-18-2019, 10:18 PM
Warriors >>>> Lebron's Cavs. When you have a team that historically dominant, you can't really judge a team's success by "did they win the title or not?" That's unfair. The Rockets played Golden State better the last two years than any other team in the NBA prior to their major injury issues this postseason that benefitted the Raptors. Bottom line, if the Warriors didn't exist, the Rockets would have been champions last season.


The Bucks actually got knocked out in the Conference Finals. Also, the Rockets took a historically great team to 7 games in the conference finals last year. I'd call that a success. This year, probably not so much.


We don't know that, actually. Now that the Warriors are facing massive injury obstacles this season, their path to the finals looks pretty different.


Paul is the second playmaker. That role is critical on this team. Even if Paul is traded, the Rockets aren't going anywhere without a second legitimate ball handler and playmaker.


"Running point" is an overrated phrase in today's NBA. You don't need one traditional point guard who runs everything. You just need guys who can create for other, period. Harden's game hasn't changed that drastically since Paul came on board. He's doing a lot of the same things he did that first season with D'Antoni; Paul just helps him get a break every now and then so the offense doesn't have to run through him every single play.


If they could trade his contract and get better? Sure, I'm not totally opposed to it. But, again, they would either need another guy to create for the team offensively OR they'd need to alter their offense dramatically to incorporate way more ball movement so Harden isn't creating the offense on every single play.

Thatís no excuse man, Durant went down this year, the rockets had every opportunity to win and they still choked. The warriors weíre def beatable this year. The rockets just werenít the team to do it.

Iím going to sum this up to that you and I have different definitions of success.

hugepatsfan
06-18-2019, 11:22 PM
I definitely think BOS and HOU are teams to keep an eye on for a trade.

When Horford was a FA he supposedly had HOU high on his list.

When CP3 did his FA video he actually mentioned BOS as a team he was thinking about.

There have been reports BOS is interested in Capella.

Idk... a lot of smoke and dots to connect IMO.

mightybosstone
06-18-2019, 11:49 PM
Thatís no excuse man, Durant went down this year, the rockets had every opportunity to win and they still choked.
Never said they didn't. But you're viewing their success through the lense of that one series and acting as if they don't play well together, when everything they've done so far as a team with the exception of really Games 5 and 6 of that series says otherwise.

Not beating the Warriors is not an excuse to completely break up that core, and it certainly doesn't justify your absurd statement that they don't fit together.


Iím going to sum this up to that you and I have different definitions of success.
I'm going to sum it up that you're boiling down two entire years of quality basketball into two losses and claiming the experiment was a failure, when in reality, both guys got further in the postseason together than they ever did apart and the franchise has had its most success with those two running the show than they have in 20+ years.

You can call it a failure, and in the extremely close-minded, ignorant viewpoint of "did they win a ring?" I guess you can say it was. But if that's the case, 29 teams fail every single year. If you only view success of a franchise by that one barometer, then I guess 90% of fan bases need to get ready for a whole lot of failure for the next decade-plus...

More-Than-Most
06-19-2019, 04:36 AM
Saw this today:

https://www.hoopsrumors.com/2019/06/harden-paul-relationship-described-as-unsalvageable.html

It actually says CP3's contract is "one of the last team friendly" deals out there.

But I never really understood the fit, especially last season when they went 100% ISO with Harden.

You can't even compare 2018-2019 Harden to 2017-18 Harden. A lot less passing for sure.

(16-17: 11.2apg)
17-18: 8.8apg
18-19: 7.5apg

The team has changed a lot. You no longer see Gordon or the likes of Ryan Anderson just letting it fly. I was amazed at Harden's ability to distribute that one year, but lately it ain't been the style in Houston. Factor in that Harden is averaging 5 turnovers per game compared to 5.7 in his 11.2apg year.

I never liked the acquisition, honestly. Chris Paul never had any great moments as a Rocket, nor has he stayed healthy. Only 58 games played in his two seasons with Houston so far. I got Blake Griffin vibes when they re-signed him.

See the thing is He def did help... Had he not gotten injured they might have or probably beaten the warriors but injuries are apart of his issues... cp3 is amazing and they had their chance but with his decline esp behind harden which was expected because harden iso/ball handles so much his value has declined and his contract is horrid... honestly as much as i hate the celtics a hayward for CP3 type of deal fits... it makes the celtics better and helps the rockets if hayward ever returns to form which is unlikely but their best option to try and switch it up and contend.

More-Than-Most
06-19-2019, 04:37 AM
Thatís no excuse man, Durant went down this year, the rockets had every opportunity to win and they still choked. The warriors weíre def beatable this year. The rockets just werenít the team to do it.

Iím going to sum this up to that you and I have different definitions of success.

that is because they lost a good bit of depth and defense last year which made them so successful esp in the post season... this year they had no chance even when KD went down.

WaDe03
06-19-2019, 08:33 AM
1141183185851731969

Now we know why Paul is denying

Rivera
06-19-2019, 09:08 AM
Yea when thereís smoke thereís fire. At this point itís hard not to believe there isnít a rift

I do think there is a good chance that both will be in Hou in October because idk who will take that CP3 contract and they may be forced to make it work together


But as far as this thread goes. I canít believe we would trust a GM who has to say the right things whether he is telling the truth or not. And most players in the NBA arenít going to hurt their value by admitting their trade request is true

Itís one thing for a prime AD to acknowledge itís true

Itís another thing for right at the end of his prime or steady decline injury prone CP3 to acknowledge the trade demands are true

Both seem super hard headed. We see CP3 is the type of guy who just wears you out after so long. Harden seems like he wants to win a chip by shooting 35 times a game instead of listening to others about ball movement

I do think some parts of that article are exaggerated but I think as a whole the articleís essence is true. CP3 wants out and is tired of playing with Harden

When there is this much smoke there is usually fire

Rivera
06-19-2019, 09:19 AM
On the subject the Rockets should be the favorite letís slow down

Yes they were the west #1 contender for GSW. Yes GSW will take a step back with their health issues. But 1) letís not count out GSW. 2) Letís see how the Lakers fill their roster. 3). Letís see who the blazers add. 4) letís not forget Denver. They have a lot of talent and they are adding MPJR someone a lot of people had as the #1 overall pick before injury


And even with all of that. If the Bucks/Raps/76ers come back with the same roster I donít think the Rockets are better than any of those 3 teams in the east

smith&wesson
06-19-2019, 10:04 AM
Never said they didn't. But you're viewing their success through the lense of that one series and acting as if they don't play well together, when everything they've done so far as a team with the exception of really Games 5 and 6 of that series says otherwise.

Not beating the Warriors is not an excuse to completely break up that core, and it certainly doesn't justify your absurd statement that they don't fit together.


I'm going to sum it up that you're boiling down two entire years of quality basketball into two losses and claiming the experiment was a failure, when in reality, both guys got further in the postseason together than they ever did apart and the franchise has had its most success with those two running the show than they have in 20+ years.

You can call it a failure, and in the extremely close-minded, ignorant viewpoint of "did they win a ring?" I guess you can say it was. But if that's the case, 29 teams fail every single year. If you only view success of a franchise by that one barometer, then I guess 90% of fan bases need to get ready for a whole lot of failure for the next decade-plus...

No I was responding to you saying theyíre a great team they just keep running in to the warriors. My response was this year the Warriors were vulnerable and if there were ever a time for the rockets to have a legitimate chance against that warriors team it was this year.

Close minded and ignorant because I think Paul and Harden arenít a tandem that can get you to the promise land? You can resort to insults all you want.

Sure Iím ignorant and close minded. And the rockets are a great team. Infact when they look back in history theyre gonna say ď remember the Harden and Paul lead rockets? They were really great. Letís put them up there with Charles Barkleyís Suns, and Reggie Millerís PacersĒ. unfortunately thatís not how teams are remembered. No one ever talks about that 60 win hawk team as a success. Because again regular season success means almost nothing in this league.

Didnít mean to offend you in anyway. Iíll change my wording to - it is my opinion that Paul and Harden are not a pairing that can lead a team to a championship.

WaDe03
06-19-2019, 10:07 AM
If they get Jimmy to go with Paul and Harden someone is going to be throwing hands between the 3 lol. Those are some alphas right there, theyíll be good as **** though.

smith&wesson
06-19-2019, 10:15 AM
On the subject the Rockets should be the favorite letís slow down

Yes they were the west #1 contender for GSW. Yes GSW will take a step back with their health issues. But 1) letís not count out GSW. 2) Letís see how the Lakers fill their roster. 3). Letís see who the blazers add. 4) letís not forget Denver. They have a lot of talent and they are adding MPJR someone a lot of people had as the #1 overall pick before injury


And even with all of that. If the Bucks/Raps/76ers come back with the same roster I donít think the Rockets are better than any of those 3 teams in the east

I agree, I donít consider them favourites either. Denver, Portland, and the Lakers will be right there with the Rockets.

smith&wesson
06-19-2019, 10:21 AM
If they get Jimmy to go with Paul and Harden someone is going to be throwing hands between the 3 lol. Those are some alphas right there, theyíll be good as **** though.

Real talk, Jimmy would mess them both up.

Seriously though I actually think Harden and Butler would be lethal together. On paper anyway.

WaDe03
06-19-2019, 10:29 AM
Real talk, Jimmy would mess them both up.

Seriously though I actually think Harden and Butler would be lethal together. On paper anyway.

I agree with both lol

smith&wesson
06-19-2019, 10:31 AM
that is because they lost a good bit of depth and defense last year which made them so successful esp in the post season... this year they had no chance even when KD went down.

Thatís fair. I always had a problem with parting from Ariza for Melo. Had a problem with parting with Beverly as well. Didnít care about losing Anderson. But over all yes you can say they did lose quality depth. I preferred that Rockets team prior to Paul. I think they were a more complete team.

mightybosstone
06-19-2019, 10:35 AM
Yea when thereís smoke thereís fire. At this point itís hard not to believe there isnít a rift

I do think there is a good chance that both will be in Hou in October because idk who will take that CP3 contract and they may be forced to make it work together

But as far as this thread goes. I canít believe we would trust a GM who has to say the right things whether he is telling the truth or not.
I'm not saying that there aren't disagreements between the two or that there probably aren't some hurt feelings after the way things went down against the Warriors, but I think the notion that the partnership and Paul has requested a trade seems completely over the top to me.

These sports "journalists" who live on anonymous sources and throw around wild accusations have zero accountability to be accurate or to even have reliable sources, and I'd literally never even heard of that Yahoo reporter until yesterday. As a journalist myself, these stories drive me freaking crazy. Even CP3 called it BS on Twitter yesterday, but people are running with it regardless.


And most players in the NBA arenít going to hurt their value by admitting their trade request is true

Itís one thing for a prime AD to acknowledge itís true

Itís another thing for right at the end of his prime or steady decline injury prone CP3 to acknowledge the trade demands are true
OK? So then we just have to take some random Yahoo reporter and his anonymous sources at face value when everyone involved in the situation is denying it? What happened to us actually needing evidence and supporting facts attached with our news before we're willing to believe it?


Both seem super hard headed. We see CP3 is the type of guy who just wears you out after so long. Harden seems like he wants to win a chip by shooting 35 times a game instead of listening to others about ball movement

I do think some parts of that article are exaggerated but I think as a whole the articleís essence is true. CP3 wants out and is tired of playing with Harden

When there is this much smoke there is usually fire
OK, but there's a massive difference between "The guys had a rough season and were at odds during the playoffs and afterward because the loosing sucked" and "Their relationship is completely over, and Paul has demanded a trade."

Look at it this way: if you honestly believe Paul is demanding a trade and is denying that he's demanded a trade to help drive up his value, what's going to happen when the season starts and he's still wearing a Rockets jersey?
The man's a professional; he's going to play basketball. But if REALLY wanted out, he wouldn't be denying the report, because he wouldn't want to risk the chance that he's still sitting on the bench next to Harden in a few months.



On the subject the Rockets should be the favorite letís slow down

Yes they were the west #1 contender for GSW. Yes GSW will take a step back with their health issues. But 1) letís not count out GSW. 2) Letís see how the Lakers fill their roster. 3). Letís see who the blazers add. 4) letís not forget Denver. They have a lot of talent and they are adding MPJR someone a lot of people had as the #1 overall pick before injury.
The Rockets own the Nuggets right now. They'd have to get a lot better to change that. And Portland's run to the WCF was a nice story, but they were playing with Fool's Gold. Dame and CJ have a limit to what that duo can accomplish, and their cap situation isn't great either.

If either team adds a legit piece, I'd be concerned. But that remains to be seen. Honestly, I'm more concerned with the Lakers given their star duo and the cap space they have remaining. That team has the potential to be a monster.


And even with all of that. If the Bucks/Raps/76ers come back with the same roster I donít think the Rockets are better than any of those 3 teams in the east
The Rockets are better than Philly, and in terms of record/win differential/SRS, they were better than the Raptors and Bucks the second half of the season. But it's not really about being the favorite to win it all. It's about being the favorite in the West. If the Rockets can just get out of the West, they'd have a decent shot against anybody in the East, whether they'd be favorites or not.

IndyRealist
06-19-2019, 10:39 AM
It's because Harden set Paul's kitchen on fire.

mightybosstone
06-19-2019, 10:42 AM
No I was responding to you saying theyíre a great team they just keep running in to the warriors. My response was this year the Warriors were vulnerable and if there were ever a time for the rockets to have a legitimate chance against that warriors team it was this year.
Yes, they should have won that series. No, losing that series does not somehow justify your response that Harden and Paul don't work together as a duo. One series does not refute two years of great basketball.


Close minded and ignorant because I think Paul and Harden arenít a tandem that can get you to the promise land? You can resort to insults all you want.

Sure Iím ignorant and close minded. And the rockets are a great team. Infact when they look back in history theyre gonna say ď remember the Harden and Paul lead rockets? They were really great. Letís put them up there with Charles Barkleyís Suns, and Reggie Millerís PacersĒ. unfortunately thatís not how teams are remembered. No one ever talks about that 60 win hawk team as a success. Because again regular season success means almost nothing in this league.
You keep referring to that 60-win Hawk team. No one remembers them because they never had a chance to begin with. They played great team basketball in a one-season sample size in a garbage conference that was dominated by Lebron James. They never had a chance, and it showed when they got to the playoffs.

That is not this Rockets team. This Rockets team is a damn good basketball team. And if ultimately they don't ever win it all, being discussed in the same conversation as teams like the 90s Suns, Jazz and Sonics or the 2000s Suns or Kings wouldn't be the worst thing in the world. Just because a team doesn't win a title doesn't mean they weren't still great. I'll never forget the 97 Rockets with Barkley or the 08-09 Rockets with Yao, McGrady and that stacked supporting cast.


Didnít mean to offend you in anyway. Iíll change my wording to - it is my opinion that Paul and Harden are not a pairing that can lead a team to a championship.
And that's fine. I understand the logic behind that statement. I don't understand the logic behind saying that Paul and Harden are not a good fit. They've proven they're a good fit as much as a team that doesn't win the championship can possibly prove. Were Payton and Kemp not a good fit? How about Malone and Stockton? Barkley and KJ? Nash and Stoudemire? All damn good basketball teams that played well and had success together, but just couldn't win a title.

mightybosstone
06-19-2019, 10:44 AM
If they get Jimmy to go with Paul and Harden someone is going to be throwing hands between the 3 lol. Those are some alphas right there, theyíll be good as **** though.

I actually think he would help bridge some of that tension between Harden and Paul. He and Harden are really good friends and hang out regularly. But he's mentally built more like Paul, and I think he would understand Paul's intensity during games.

It's all probably a moot point, though. I'd love to see it happen, and I think there's a chance, but I wouldn't bet money on Butler to Houston at this point.

smith&wesson
06-19-2019, 10:45 AM
I'm not saying that there aren't disagreements between the two or that there probably aren't some hurt feelings after the way things went down against the Warriors, but I think the notion that the partnership and Paul has requested a trade seems completely over the top to me.

These sports "journalists" who live on anonymous sources and throw around wild accusations have zero accountability to be accurate or to even have reliable sources, and I'd literally never even heard of that Yahoo reporter until yesterday. As a journalist myself, these stories drive me freaking crazy. Even CP3 called it BS on Twitter yesterday, but people are running with it regardless.


OK? So then we just have to take some random Yahoo reporter and his anonymous sources at face value when everyone involved in the situation is denying it? What happened to us actually needing evidence and supporting facts attached with our news before we're willing to believe it?


OK, but there's a massive difference between "The guys had a rough season and were at odds during the playoffs and afterward because the loosing sucked" and "Their relationship is completely over, and Paul has demanded a trade."

Look at it this way: if you honestly believe Paul is demanding a trade and is denying that he's demanded a trade to help drive up his value, what's going to happen when the season starts and he's still wearing a Rockets jersey?
The man's a professional; he's going to play basketball. But if REALLY wanted out, he wouldn't be denying the report, because he wouldn't want to risk the chance that he's still sitting on the bench next to Harden in a few months.



The Rockets own the Nuggets right now. They'd have to get a lot better to change that. And Portland's run to the WCF was a nice story, but they were playing with Fool's Gold. Dame and CJ have a limit to what that duo can accomplish, and their cap situation isn't great either.

If either team adds a legit piece, I'd be concerned. But that remains to be seen. Honestly, I'm more concerned with the Lakers given their star duo and the cap space they have remaining. That team has the potential to be a monster.

The Rockets are better than Philly, and in terms of record/win differential/SRS, they were better than the Raptors and Bucks the second half of the season. But it's not really about being the favorite to win it all. It's about being the favorite in the West. If the Rockets can just get out of the West, they'd have a decent shot against anybody in the East, whether they'd be favorites or not.

Again youíre putting way to much in to regular season success.

The 76ers had the exact same problem as the rockets this year.. no depth. What makes you think the Rockets would beat them? If anything I think it would be a great match up as both teams are potent in the front end of their rotation and really thin on the back end of it.

The Raptors and Bucks were strong teams this year. You may think that the warriors were your only hurdle but when you lack depth a team like Toronto will destroy you. Mind you Iím a rockets fan to. Iím not being bias here.

I donít think any of those teams would be favourites over the rockets either. I just think it would be a close race.

smith&wesson
06-19-2019, 10:47 AM
I actually think he would help bridge some of that tension between Harden and Paul. He and Harden are really good friends and hang out regularly. But he's mentally built more like Paul, and I think he would understand Paul's intensity during games.

It's all probably a moot point, though. I'd love to see it happen, and I think there's a chance, but I wouldn't bet money on Butler to Houston at this point.

Interesting take. I can picture it

mightybosstone
06-19-2019, 10:56 AM
Again youíre putting way to much in to regular season success.
Not really, dude. Consider that the Harden/Paul Rockets have demolished every other team they've faced in the playoffs and have played better against Golden State than any other team in the postseason sans Toronto (who only had to face Durant for all of like 10 minutes in that series). That Utah team this season was damn good, a 50-win team that would have probably finished much higher in the seedings in the East. And Houston embarrassed them the first two games before the Jazz settled themselves and kept those last three games close.


The 76ers had the exact same problem as the rockets this year.. no depth. What makes you think the Rockets would beat them? If anything I think it would be a great match up as both teams are potent in the front end of their rotation and really thin on the back end of it.
The Rockets don't have great depth, but they had a pretty decent group this year with Rivers, Manimal, Green and House. The problem is Green and House are super streaky, and Manimal's defense on switches made him unplayable against the Warriors.


The Raptors and Bucks were strong teams this year. You may think that the warriors were your only hurdle but when you lack depth a team like Toronto will destroy you. Mind you Iím a rockets fan to. Iím not being bias here.
I never once actually said that I thought the Warriors were the only hurdle this season. LAST year? I think the Rockets would have crushed Cleveland. But Toronto and Milwaukee this season were much better basketball teams. I was actually deeply concerned against the Bucks, because I thought they were a matchup nightmare. But I think the Rockets would have faired well against Toronto and made it a decent series.

mightybosstone
06-19-2019, 11:02 AM
By the way, SAS was on ESPN this morning saying he actually spoke to CP3, and now he's back tracking a little bit on this Paul/Harden drama he started in the first place last week. Here's a transcript from that segment I pulled from another site:


Is this alleged drama something or nothing?

Stephen A.: Nothing. Spoke to Chris Paul yesterday. Categorically denied the report. He wanted to state emphatically he has never ever once demanded a trade. That's a fallacy. ... Did he demand a trade? No he did not. Did he ask to be traded? No he did not. I reported he is looking to be out of Houston. He did not address that so I don't know how he feels about that. This is my situation: when I look at Chris Paul & the Rockets as presently constructed, it does not work. Mike D'Antoni puts every possession through James Harden. Chris Paul departed the Clippers to go to Houston, looking forward to being off the ball sometimes. There's no way in hell he could enjoy being off the ball as much as he was this last season. That's problematic. Something has to change there. The drama that is really unfolding is Fertitta, Morey & D'Antoni. D'Antoni wants an extension. Fertitta offered $5M + $1M for each round you won. That's where the real drama is going on. Harden & Paul have spoken. Did Harden get back to Paul initially? No. Did it take a few weeks to connect? Sure. But they have spoken. This stuffa bout can't stand one another? That's not the real issue.

smith&wesson
06-19-2019, 11:05 AM
Yes, they should have won that series. No, losing that series does not somehow justify your response that Harden and Paul don't work together as a duo. One series does not refute two years of great basketballóit's a pretty simple concept to understand, chief.


You keep referring to that 60-win Hawk team. No one remembers them because they never had a chance to begin with. They played great team basketball in a one-season sample size in a garbage conference that was dominated by Lebron James. They never had a chance, and it showed when they got to the playoffs.

That is not this Rockets team. This Rockets team is a damn good basketball team. And if ultimately they don't ever win it all, being discussed in the same conversation as teams like the 90s Suns, Jazz and Sonics or the 2000s Suns or Kings wouldn't be the worst thing in the world. Just because a team doesn't win a title doesn't mean they weren't still great. I'll never forget the 97 Rockets with Barkley or the 08-09 Rockets with Yao, McGrady and that stacked supporting cast.


And that's fine. I understand the logic behind that statement. I don't understand the logic behind saying that Paul and Harden are not a good fit. They've proven they're a good fit as much as a team that doesn't win the championship can possibly prove. Were Payton and Kemp not a good fit? How about Malone and Stockton? Barkley and KJ? Nash and Stoudemire? All damn good basketball teams that played well and had success together, but just couldn't win a title.

I refer to that 60 win hawks team because they are recent and people might actually remember because there are so many teams that have won 59,60 games+ or have had tremendous in season success and it didnít mean anything. The Bucks would be the most recent example. Everyone thought they actually had a chance this year and they had the best record in the league. Raptors last year won 59 and Masai didnít think that team was good enough and traded for a piece that got them over in kawhi. I think the rockets already have the Super star in harden and simply need to find the appropriate co star for him and imo Paul is not that dude.

Iím bias in the sense that I donít think you necessarily need an elite traditional pg to win. Iím of the believe that having a Derek Fisher type, or a BJ Armstrong type of pg will suffice and would prefer to have my elite talent at the 2,3, or 4. For example id much rather have a Beverly/Harden back court with my other star at the 3 or 4. If I had a choice that would be my preference.

smith&wesson
06-19-2019, 11:10 AM
By the way, SAS was on ESPN this morning saying he actually spoke to CP3, and now he's back tracking a little bit on this Paul/Harden drama he started in the first place last week. Here's a transcript from that segment I pulled from another site:

SAS is such a joke... literally put words in their moths and Paul called him on it. Good man!

WaDe03
06-19-2019, 11:16 AM
Shams doesnít make stuff up though rockets have basically tried to give CP3 away for free

smith&wesson
06-19-2019, 11:19 AM
Not really, dude. Consider that the Harden/Paul Rockets have demolished every other team they've faced in the playoffs and have played better against Golden State than any other team in the postseason sans Toronto (who only had to face Durant for all of like 10 minutes in that series). That Utah team this season was damn good, a 50-win team that would have probably finished much higher in the seedings in the East. And Houston embarrassed them the first two games before the Jazz settled themselves and kept those last three games close.


The Rockets don't have great depth, but they had a pretty decent group this year with Rivers, Manimal, Green and House. The problem is Green and House are super streaky, and Manimal's defense on switches made him unplayable against the Warriors.


I never once actually said that I thought the Warriors were the only hurdle this season. LAST year? I think the Rockets would have crushed Cleveland. But Toronto and Milwaukee this season were much better basketball teams. I was actually deeply concerned against the Bucks, because I thought they were a matchup nightmare. But I think the Rockets would have faired well against Toronto and made it a decent series.

The rockets always play the raptors well. Would have been a dream match up for me. I live in both cities and dream about that finals match up every year.

The Rockets would have beaten the Bucks imo. Giannis shooting hurt them, and his supporting cast became inconsistent in the ECFs. I think Houstonís experience would have edged them.

The 76ers would be the wild card match up. Harden vs Butler, Simmons vs Paul, Embiid vs Capela, Harris vs Tucker. On paper the match ups would be very entertaining. The bench for each team would actually be matched up pretty good lol as neither team has any depth.

I actually can vision Butler on the Rockets now and I think that could be the type of player Harden can really use along slide him on the perimeter.

mightybosstone
06-19-2019, 11:24 AM
I refer to that 60 win hawks team because they are recent and people might actually remember because there are so many teams that have won 59,60 games+ or have had tremendous in season success and it didnít mean anything.
You and I remember that team very differently. I remember everyone questioning whether they could get past Lebron and pretty much nobody giving them a chance to take down Golden State. And when the Cavs dominated them, I remember zero surprise from any analysts or fans.

Getting swept by Lebron's so-so Cavs team in the conference finals of a pathetic Eastern Conference and taking a historically great team with four Hall of Famers in their primes to seven games in a stacked conference finals they probably would have won if not for a Game 5 injury are not the same thing. Last year's Rockets >>>>> That Hawks team.


The Bucks would be the most recent example. Everyone thought they actually had a chance this year and they had the best record in the league. Raptors last year won 59 and Masai didnít think that team was good enough and traded for a piece that got them over in kawhi.
I'm confused by your logic here. You say you thought they had a chance like they were somehow embarrassed in the playoffs. They weren't. They actually destroyed Detroit and Boston before losing a pretty tight 6-game series in the conference finals to a damn good Toronto team that eventually won the title. The talent and success of that Bucks team was not a mirage. If they had made it to the finals, they very well might have beaten Golden State, too.

But I kind of think that's where you and I completely disagree. You seem to think that any team can only be considered a success if it wins a championship, whereas I recognize the reality that 29 teams have to face that every season and a damn good team can still be damn good if they don't hoist a trophy at the end of the season.


I think the Rockets already have the Super star in harden and simply need to find the appropriate co star for him and imo Paul is not that dude.
He probably would have "been that dude" in 2018 had he not gone down with the hamstring injury. If anything, it isn't a question of fit, it's a question of whether Paul is going to continue to decline or not. Because he wasn't the same guy last season, and if he gets any worse than that, the Rockets probably aren't winning anything without an additional influx of talent.


Iím bias in the sense that I donít think you necessarily need an elite traditional pg to win. Iím of the believe that having a Derek Fisher type, or a BJ Armstrong type of pg will suffice and would prefer to have my elite talent at the 2,3, or 4. For example id much rather have a Beverly/Harden back court with my other star at the 3 or 4. If I had a choice that would be my preference.
Who said anything about needing a traditional PG to win? I never said that. In fact, most great teams throughout history that have won championships haven't had traditional PGs or even great PG play period. Jordan's Bulls, the Kobe/Shaq Lakers, Bird's Celtics, etc.

It's not about position, though. It's about having talented players and having guys who can create for themselves and others. In today's NBA, you have to have guys who can do that. Chris Paul is one of them.

mightybosstone
06-19-2019, 11:28 AM
Shams doesnít make stuff up though rockets have basically tried to give CP3 away for free

Right, but again "Morey made some calls to teams to put feelers out to see if they'd be interested in Chris Paul's contract" and "Chris Paul and James Harden's relationship is irreparable and Paul is demanding a trade" are two completely different things.

I have no doubt Morey made calls about Paul's contract. The the GM of a team trying to get better, and he'd be a fool not to, especially given how bad that contract looks right about now. But even just making phone calls are just a GM doing his due diligence.

smith&wesson
06-19-2019, 11:43 AM
You and I remember that team very differently. I remember everyone questioning whether they could get past Lebron and pretty much nobody giving them a chance to take down Golden State. And when the Cavs dominated them, I remember zero surprise from any analysts or fans.

Getting swept by Lebron's so-so Cavs team in the conference finals of a pathetic Eastern Conference and taking a historically great team with four Hall of Famers in their primes to seven games in a stacked conference finals they probably would have won if not for a Game 5 injury are not the same thing. Last year's Rockets >>>>> That Hawks team.


I'm confused by your logic here. You say you thought they had a chance like they were somehow embarrassed in the playoffs. They weren't. They actually destroyed Detroit and Boston before losing a pretty tight 6-game series in the conference finals to a damn good Toronto team that eventually won the title. The talent and success of that Bucks team was not a mirage. If they had made it to the finals, they very well might have beaten Golden State, too.

But I kind of think that's where you and I completely disagree. You seem to think that any team can only be considered a success if it wins a championship, whereas I recognize the reality that 29 teams have to face that every season and a damn good team can still be damn good if they don't hoist a trophy at the end of the season.


He probably would have "been that dude" in 2018 had he not gone down with the hamstring injury. If anything, it isn't a question of fit, it's a question of whether Paul is going to continue to decline or not. Because he wasn't the same guy last season, and if he gets any worse than that, the Rockets probably aren't winning anything without an additional influx of talent.


Who said anything about needing a traditional PG to win? I never said that. In fact, most great teams throughout history that have won championships haven't had traditional PGs or even great PG play period. Jordan's Bulls, the Kobe/Shaq Lakers, Bird's Celtics, etc.

It's not about position, though. It's about having talented players and having guys who can create for themselves and others. In today's NBA, you have to have guys who can do that. Chris Paul is one of them.

I wasnít suggesting the Bucks should be embarrassed at all. Iím just giving you the most recent example of a team who had tremendous success in the regular season and it still didnít mean much. Further hitting home my point of regular seasons success doesnít mean much. I brought this example forward because you didnít like the Hawks example because you stated no one actually considered them contenders. Fair enough. Thatís why I brought up the Bucks because people did consider them contenders this year. These are teams who did great things in the season but werenít good enough to go all the way in the post season. The rockets currently are among that group. That was the point, not that Milwaukee should be embarrassed in anyway.

Admittedly thereís some bias with Paul, I just donít think that you need a player like him to win. And it looks like we agree because your examples were perfect!

With respect to the bolded, didnít I say we probably have different definitions of success ?

smith&wesson
06-19-2019, 11:53 AM
Right, but again "Morey made some calls to teams to put feelers out to see if they'd be interested in Chris Paul's contract" and "Chris Paul and James Harden's relationship is irreparable and Paul is demanding a trade" are two completely different things.

I have no doubt Morey made calls about Paul's contract. The the GM of a team trying to get better, and he'd be a fool not to, especially given how bad that contract looks right about now. But even just making phone calls are just a GM doing his due diligence.

Were stuck with Paul thatís the problem. He wouldnít be fielding phone calls on 40 mill per year star if he thought he was so important to their success. If anything Paulís contract is whatís standing in the way imo.

Rivera
06-19-2019, 12:08 PM
MBT I read your reply to me. I personally hate when posts get breaking up that way sometimes the overall point gets lost and to many side discussions happen but I have to address a few things

And you know I love you and respect you as a poster from our years posting on this board but I have to be honest

I know you hate being called a homer but one of your points to your reply to me just screamed homer

Who is Vincent Goodwill? Heís the head of the revamped nba yahoo along with Chris Haynes. The same nba yahoo that birthed Shams and Woj. Vincent Goodwill has credibility. Because you donít know who he is doesnít mean he isnít credible.

I agreed some points were exaggerated but as you also acknowledge there is some type of disconnect. We will agree to disagree on how big it is. I believe itís big enough that CP3 did demand a trade. Granted it could have been when tensions were at there highest and CP3 did it in the heat of the moment but that was a while ago and things smoothed over. It cause Vince to get an old story heís running now which is entirely plausible.


The other thing is we will agree to disagree on Houston being favorites. As currently constructed with CP3 and Harden on the same page I wouldnít pick them to win it all. They would be in my pool of serious contenders but I honestly believe those other teams I listed are better. This is something we can go back and forth on and never change each otherís minds on lol. I donít think their current style will win. Yes it almost did 2 years ago when CP3 got hurt but almost has happened so many other times and 2 years ago is a long time. 2 years ago KL wasnít playing and the Greek freak wasnít a top 10 player. A lot has changed in the NBA over 2 years

I think Philly would beat them up on the boards and have bodies (potentially) to throw at Harden

I picked the Raps on this board right before the playoffs started with DMC KD and Klay all healthy so that tells you how highly I think of them

The Bucks letís see their roster but if they run it back they have the length to bother Harden and depth to run

If MPJR comes back and is as good as the early reports suggest thatís 2 and a half all stars on Denver on top of their already deep roster. I mentioned game 4 was a franchise changing win even if they donít win the series. That type of game builds confidence they are going to come back stronger


And Utah just got Conley! Thatís a perfect fit

smith&wesson
06-19-2019, 12:29 PM
Utah just got Conley! Thatís a perfect fit

Great trade for Utah. I feel like Memphis didnít get enough return.

IndyRealist
06-19-2019, 12:41 PM
Shams doesnít make stuff up though rockets have basically tried to give CP3 away for free

I recall Shams getting called out for blatantly untrue statements before. I'll link if I can remember the specifics.

mightybosstone
06-19-2019, 12:42 PM
MBT I read your reply to me. I personally hate when posts get breaking up that way sometimes the overall point gets lost and to many side discussions happen but I have to address a few things

And you know I love you and respect you as a poster from our years posting on this board but I have to be honest

I know you hate being called a homer but one of your points to your reply to me just screamed homer

Who is Vincent Goodwill? Heís the head of the revamped nba yahoo along with Chris Haynes. The same nba yahoo that birthed Shams and Woj. Vincent Goodwill has credibility. Because you donít know who he is doesnít mean he isnít credible.

I agreed some points were exaggerated but as you also acknowledge there is some type of disconnect. We will agree to disagree on how big it is. I believe itís big enough that CP3 did demand a trade. Granted it could have been when tensions were at there highest and CP3 did it in the heat of the moment but that was a while ago and things smoothed over. It cause Vince to get an old story heís running now which is entirely plausible.


The other thing is we will agree to disagree on Houston being favorites. As currently constructed with CP3 and Harden on the same page I wouldnít pick them to win it all. They would be in my pool of serious contenders but I honestly believe those other teams I listed are better. This is something we can go back and forth on and never change each otherís minds on lol. I donít think their current style will win. Yes it almost did 2 years ago when CP3 got hurt but almost has happened so many other times and 2 years ago is a long time. 2 years ago KL wasnít playing and the Greek freak wasnít a top 10 player. A lot has changed in the NBA over 2 years

I think Philly would beat them up on the boards and have bodies (potentially) to throw at Harden

I picked the Raps on this board right before the playoffs started with DMC KD and Klay all healthy so that tells you how highly I think of them

The Bucks letís see their roster but if they run it back they have the length to bother Harden and depth to run

If MPJR comes back and is as good as the early reports suggest thatís 2 and a half all stars on Denver on top of their already deep roster. I mentioned game 4 was a franchise changing win even if they donít win the series. That type of game builds confidence they are going to come back stronger

And Utah just got Conley! Thatís a perfect fit

OK, I'll try to avoid splitting up posts for you, but I still need to take these points one at a time. It's much easier to have a discussion this way rather than just going back and forth with giant posts that don't really touch on specific points.

1. Goodwill's credibility
Why should I trust him as a journalist? What big story has he broken that justifies me trusting him when other legitimate NBA journalists and trustworthy guys are not running with this same story? Just because he writes for the same organization that Woj and Shams have worked for in no way means he has earned that same level of credibility.

And maybe he did hear a source tell him "Yeah, I heard CP3 ranting a few days after that loss to Golden State, and he ripped on Harden and says he wants out of Houston." But if so, that's not good enough. There's emotions following a loss, but a rant of a player right after an embarrassing end to a season with promise does not constitute a timely, legitimate news story. If that was the case, it's already old news, and it's a non-story already.

2. Trusting anonymous sourcing in sports stories
Why are you so quick to trust the anonymous source? The publications I work for and manage have never run with a story based on an anonymous source in our more than 10 years in existence. Not once. Because as a journalist, it's your job to put out trustworthy content readers can trust. Anonymous sources should be used ONLY in severe cases where it's absolutely necessary to tell an incredibly important story. Otherwise, it's your job as a journalist to keep working your reporting until you can get someone on the record.

And I can understand why NBA journalists do the anonymous sourcing when it comes to rumors around trades and free agency. That I can understand, because it's all fun and games, and I'm sure that whole time period is very political in terms of who's putting out information and who runs with that. But this is a journalist questioning the credibility and character of a team and two of its players.

What the guy's suggesting is a pretty serious accusation, and not only could he not get someone on the record, but he didn't even reach out to Harden or Paul to comment on the article, which is pretty much common courtesy. If one of my writers does a story that paints someone or a group of people in a negative light, the VERY FIRST thing I suggest when editing that article is that they give the chance for that person or group of people to respond. Goodwill didn't, or if he did, he didn't add "Harden and Paul declined to comment for the article," which is pretty much journalism 101.

3. On Houston being "favorites"
This is a pretty easy thing to address, as I never once suggested that the Rockets were favorites at any point anywhere on this site. Never. (You guys definitely seem to love putting words in my mouth the last couple of days.) What I said was (and you can easily find posts where I've said this) that the Rockets would probably be the favorites in the West right now BEFORE free agency plays out and we see where everybody lands.

I don't necessarily think the Rockets are better than Toronto or Milwaukee on paper. But on paper, they've unquestionably been the second best team in the Western Conference behind the Warriors the last two seasons, and I'm not sure how you could suggest otherwise. With Durant out, Thompson out the majority of next season and Cousins possibly gone, the Rockets would appear to be next in line to take that top spot barring major changes in the makeup of other teams.

Conley going to Utah is nice. That move alone does not make the Jazz better than a Rockets team that was 8-2 against them the last two postseasons.

IndyRealist
06-19-2019, 12:46 PM
I recall Shams getting called out for blatantly untrue statements before. I'll link if I can remember the specifics.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjAgrP7_vXiAhXrna0KHZ8EChMQzPwBegQIARAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fftw.usatoday.com%2F2018%2F10%2Fj eff-teague-jimmy-butler-twolves-players-only-meeting-report-fake-news-tweet-nba-drama-trade&psig=AOvVaw36HRpQPcP3Qrjq_YobceQJ&ust=1561049035985468

WaDe03
06-19-2019, 02:00 PM
https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjAgrP7_vXiAhXrna0KHZ8EChMQzPwBegQIARAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fftw.usatoday.com%2F2018%2F10%2Fj eff-teague-jimmy-butler-twolves-players-only-meeting-report-fake-news-tweet-nba-drama-trade&psig=AOvVaw36HRpQPcP3Qrjq_YobceQJ&ust=1561049035985468

Jimmy said they did have one though.

tp13baby
06-19-2019, 02:34 PM
I am not a CP3 fan, but I have never questioned his character. He isnít a cancer. There are some damn good free agents out there and Paul has a contract that hurts the team from retooling. Morey making calls is just seeing what he can do to improve the team. Lastly if I had to put a bet on a team to win the west, I would put money on Houston.

MBT is right. On paper they may not be the best, but with GS down, they were the only team to give GS a run the last 2 years so I would put them as favorites as of now. Their style of play is unique and makes it tough on a ton of teams, especially my Denver Nuggets which they absolutely own.

IndyRealist
06-19-2019, 02:47 PM
Jimmy said they did have one though.

Yes he did. Don't know what actually happened but it seems super fishy. At the time, Teague was verbally backing Jimmy.

TylerSL
06-19-2019, 04:52 PM
I think the Rockets will trade Eric Gordon, PJ Tucker, and 3 first round picks (with some being unprotected) for Jimmy Butler in a sign and trade. I think having Butler would re motivate CP3/Harden into giving it another go. Neither Harden/CP3 were going anywhere anyway, but if they can add Butler it would re invigorate that entire organization, and put them right up there with the Lakers and Nuggets at the top of the standings.

As for Golden State, I think they'll only be 4th or 5th in the West standings next year. I think Klay will return in February/March and Durant will be back April/May. Durant could possibly miss the entire season, but if his recovery goes well I think he could make it back for the playoffs. Klay will return for the stretch run and make them more of a threat at the end of the season, but because they will play most of the season without two of their best players, they will suffer in the standings.

Lakers/Rockets/Nuggets will sit atop the Western standings next season IMO with Rockets, assuming they get Butler, and Lakers, assuming they add depth, being the favorites to make conference finals.

mightybosstone
06-19-2019, 05:16 PM
I think the Rockets will trade Eric Gordon, PJ Tucker, and 3 first round picks (with some being unprotected) for Jimmy Butler in a sign and trade. I think having Butler would re motivate CP3/Harden into giving it another go. Neither Harden/CP3 were going anywhere anyway, but if they can add Butler it would re invigorate that entire organization, and put them right up there with the Lakers and Nuggets at the top of the standings.

As for Golden State, I think they'll only be 4th or 5th in the West standings next year. I think Klay will return in February/March and Durant will be back April/May. Durant could possibly miss the entire season, but if his recovery goes well I think he could make it back for the playoffs. Klay will return for the stretch run and make them more of a threat at the end of the season, but because they will play most of the season without two of their best players, they will suffer in the standings.

Lakers/Rockets/Nuggets will sit atop the Western standings next season IMO with Rockets, assuming they get Butler, and Lakers, assuming they add depth, being the favorites to make conference finals.

I'd actually be totally fine with that trade, but it won't be enough salary-wise. Butler is going to make upwards of $30 million and those two only make about $22 million combined. Also, I very much get the sense that Tucker is off limits to Morey. There were rumors that the Rockets could have had Butler last season if they had parted ways with Tucker (in a very similar trade), but they refused to budge so he got dealt to Philly instead.

Saddletramp
06-19-2019, 06:00 PM
By the way, SAS was on ESPN this morning saying he actually spoke to CP3, and now he's back tracking a little bit on this Paul/Harden drama he started in the first place last week. Here's a transcript from that segment I pulled from another site:

So SAS was his own source? Sounds about normal.

hugepatsfan
06-19-2019, 06:15 PM
I think the Rockets will trade Eric Gordon, PJ Tucker, and 3 first round picks (with some being unprotected) for Jimmy Butler in a sign and trade. I think having Butler would re motivate CP3/Harden into giving it another go. Neither Harden/CP3 were going anywhere anyway, but if they can add Butler it would re invigorate that entire organization, and put them right up there with the Lakers and Nuggets at the top of the standings.

As for Golden State, I think they'll only be 4th or 5th in the West standings next year. I think Klay will return in February/March and Durant will be back April/May. Durant could possibly miss the entire season, but if his recovery goes well I think he could make it back for the playoffs. Klay will return for the stretch run and make them more of a threat at the end of the season, but because they will play most of the season without two of their best players, they will suffer in the standings.

Lakers/Rockets/Nuggets will sit atop the Western standings next season IMO with Rockets, assuming they get Butler, and Lakers, assuming they add depth, being the favorites to make conference finals.

Not sure PHI would go along with that. I think they would pursue younger players. They're not over the cap - if Butler walks they can go allocate that space to other player(s). I think they'll look for longer term pieces rather than 1 year stop gaps like that.

warfelg
06-19-2019, 06:25 PM
Not sure PHI would go along with that. I think they would pursue younger players. They're not over the cap - if Butler walks they can go allocate that space to other player(s). I think they'll look for longer term pieces rather than 1 year stop gaps like that.

Not only that we're going to be taking on a lot more salary than we send out, the Rockets would be working with the Apron Hard Cap, and Jimmy's contract would have some financial implications. The only way that gets done is us spending up to the cap and doing the trade as a team over the cap.