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View Full Version : Does Kawhi Leonard Pass Dwyane Wade on the All Time List?



Redrum187
06-14-2019, 02:04 AM
He's won 2 championships being the best player, FMVP. He's been in the top 5 MVP voting multiple times. Superior playoff stats in comparison to regular season (which are insane as well). He didn't form a super team and he didn't need crooked refs to help win him a title.

In my opinion, Kawhi could retire right now and be ranked ahead of Wade. He is the superior offensive and defensive player. The only thing Wade has Kawhi on is play-making, but Kawhi isn't bad in that area either.

Does Kawhi pass Wade on the All Time list?

More-Than-Most
06-14-2019, 02:06 AM
to me yes but its close just because of KL defense. Id take KL over wade personally but i think he needs to play at a high level for about 2 more seasons before he should be above him from everyones standards.

Redrum187
06-14-2019, 02:09 AM
I need to mention that Kawhi won BOTH his championships against super teams... LeBron/Wade/Bosh and Curry/Klay/Dray/Iggy/Cousins/Durant. He has the biggest d-ck in the game without question.

GREATNESS ONE
06-14-2019, 02:10 AM
He passed Curry too

More-Than-Most
06-14-2019, 02:13 AM
He passed Curry too

this def tbh... Curry just cant do it in big time moments.

Redrum187
06-14-2019, 02:14 AM
He passed Curry too

Curry was back-to-back MVP's though. I think he's on par though for sure. By the time he retires, I expect him to pass Curry though.

GREATNESS ONE
06-14-2019, 02:16 AM
Curry was back-to-back MVP's though. I think he's on par though for sure. By the end of next year, I expect him to pass Curry though.

I agree. :)

Dade County
06-14-2019, 02:21 AM
LMAO

Mods close this tread.

Dade County
06-14-2019, 02:25 AM
to me yes but its close just because of KL defense. Id take KL over wade personally but i think he needs to play at a high level for about 2 more seasons before he should be above him from everyones standards.

Both teams even, in Wade's prime era or this new style of play era. Wade is just a different animal in his prime & when healthy. Wade team wins over Kawhi more then not.

But whatever, i know whats about to happen in this thread.

Edit*
I know Wade 3pt shooting will be brought up, just to let you know it wouldn't matter; just surround Wade with 3 point shooters in this ear playing style, just like Giannis.

More-Than-Most
06-14-2019, 02:42 AM
Both teams even, in Wade's prime era or this new style of play era. Wade is just a different animal in his prime & when healthy. Wade team wins over Kawhi more then not.

But whatever, i know whats about to happen in this thread.

Edit*
I know Wade 3pt shooting will be brought up, just to let you know it wouldn't matter; just surround Wade with 3 point shooters in this ear playing style, just like Giannis.

that is what makes it tough... both guys excel in different areas.... i feel like on neutral teams it would be really close... prime wade was nuts... I am only giving KL the future nudge because of his insane defense... I wouldnt argue against someone having wade above him because they would def have a point... I think in 2 years though KL could start to blow past him and others.

More-Than-Most
06-14-2019, 02:43 AM
i feel like because we watched wade these past few years that people forget how great his prime was.

Dade County
06-14-2019, 03:43 AM
i feel like because we watched wade these past few years that people forget how great his prime was.

I think Lowry & Wade numbers were nearly the same this season lol

Saddletramp
06-14-2019, 05:24 AM
The Rockets picked a Morris twin right before Kawhi. Smack my mother****iní head.

R. Johnson#3
06-14-2019, 05:49 AM
I'd happily contribute my two cents here but I know someone who wouldn't be too happy about it......so I'll contribute 4 cents! Kawhi >>>>> Wade.

mike_noodles
06-14-2019, 08:15 AM
Wow, that's a tough question. TBH, I think Wade is the most overrated player of this generation. I would still have to think about it. But another ring, and he put a team on his back and carried them to an NBA championship, another Finals MVP. The credentials are there for sure.

ewing
06-14-2019, 08:36 AM
Not yet maybe in the future


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Quinnsanity
06-14-2019, 08:57 AM
I mean, what is Wade really better at than Kawhi? Better passer for sure. Otherwise? I don't think it's all that close. In fact, I think this thread shoots too low.

Right now, I think there's a 13-man list that's fairly unimpeachable. It's, in some order, MJ, LeBron, Russell, Kareem, Wilt, Magic, Bird, Shaq, Duncan, Hakeem, Oscar, Jerry and Kobe. If you're measuring players on a combination of accomplishment and ability combined instead of just one or the other, that's your list.

Then I think we have three modern players butting heads for the next three slots. In some order, it's Curry, KD and Kawhi, and all three are neck-and-neck. I think when you're talking about multiple championships and multiple MVPs (of either the regular season or the Finals variety), you've surpassed players way higher than Wade. The Dirks and the Barkleys and the Dr. J's of the world are also in the rear-view mirror. I'd personally put Moses behind those three as well just because his MVPs came at a fairly weak moment in league history, though the strength of his championship probably has him right after that group.

As far as ranking those three guys? My personal list at the moment is Curry first, KD second, Kawhi third. The "Curry isn't a closer!" **** is so overblown, and what he creates for his teammates is unlike any force in NBA history. KD has the slight edge over Kawhi because of longevity and because of the uniqueness of his body. But I could see this list shuffling into any order when it's all said and done.

Oakmont_4
06-14-2019, 10:03 AM
I mean, what is Wade really better at than Kawhi? Better passer for sure. Otherwise? I don't think it's all that close. In fact, I think this thread shoots too low.

Right now, I think there's a 13-man list that's fairly unimpeachable. It's, in some order, MJ, LeBron, Russell, Kareem, Wilt, Magic, Bird, Shaq, Duncan, Hakeem, Oscar, Jerry and Kobe. If you're measuring players on a combination of accomplishment and ability combined instead of just one or the other, that's your list.

Then I think we have three modern players butting heads for the next three slots. In some order, it's Curry, KD and Kawhi, and all three are neck-and-neck. I think when you're talking about multiple championships and multiple MVPs (of either the regular season or the Finals variety), you've surpassed players way higher than Wade. The Dirks and the Barkleys and the Dr. J's of the world are also in the rear-view mirror. I'd personally put Moses behind those three as well just because his MVPs came at a fairly weak moment in league history, though the strength of his championship probably has him right after that group.

As far as ranking those three guys? My personal list at the moment is Curry first, KD second, Kawhi third. The "Curry isn't a closer!" **** is so overblown, and what he creates for his teammates is unlike any force in NBA history. KD has the slight edge over Kawhi because of longevity and because of the uniqueness of his body. But I could see this list shuffling into any order when it's all said and done.

Only disagreement with me is your placement of Curry. For 2 reasons. His lack of defense really sets him back from KD and Kawhi. And the talent heís had around him essentially his entire career. Do we really know that he creates a ton for others or do they take a lot off him? We donít know. I know teams focus on Curry, but not to the extent of Kawhi because of Curryís surround cast. Iím actually excited to see him for a full season with no KD and no Klay. Maybe heíll prove me wrong. I donít doubt that he can, but I need to see it.

Kawhi has led 2 different teams with 2 different casts as the undoubted alpha dog of the team. His 2nd wasnít even close to his talent level. I donít think KD or Curry can say that. For me, Kawhi is above both at the moment.

RowBTrice
06-14-2019, 10:20 AM
The answer is very simply, HELL YES!!!!!! I also agree with an earlier poster mentioning how dwayne is overrated by heat fans. Was he good? Yes, of course he was good. All time great?? Nah. no way. KL also showed that lebron is overrated with all the GOAT talk. KL beat basically the same Warriors team in the finals, and did it without Kyrie and KLove.

Quinnsanity
06-14-2019, 10:26 AM
Only disagreement with me is your placement of Curry. For 2 reasons. His lack of defense really sets him back from KD and Kawhi. And the talent heís had around him essentially his entire career. Do we really know that he creates a ton for others or do they take a lot off him? We donít know. I know teams focus on Curry, but not to the extent of Kawhi because of Curryís surround cast. Iím actually excited to see him for a full season with no KD and no Klay. Maybe heíll prove me wrong. I donít doubt that he can, but I need to see it.

Kawhi has led 2 different teams with 2 different casts as the undoubted alpha dog of the team. His 2nd wasnít even close to his talent level. I donít think KD or Curry can say that. For me, Kawhi is above both at the moment.

Warriors net ratings:

2019 With Steph: +14.1
2019 Without Steph: -4.4

2018 With Steph: +13.2
2018 Without Steph: +0.1

2017 With Steph: +17.7
2017 Without Steph: -2.7

2016 With Steph: +17.7
2016 Without Steph: -5.5

2015 With Steph: +16.4
2015 Without Steph: -3.8

These numbers are absolutely bonkers. The Warriors basically go from the greatest team of all time when Steph plays to a bad one when he sits, and that's with Klay and Durant playing most of the minutes Steph rests and Klay, Durant and Draymond playing in games that he sits out.

That is how valuable Steph's gravity is. It warps the court so much that every other player on the floor gets shots that they wouldn't with literally any other teammate. At the superstar level, offense is just more important than defense. Curry, KD, and Kawhi are all in the same stratosphere as far as the points that they score themselves. The difference is the points that Curry creates for others. That, to me, trumps what Kawhi and KD do on defense.

Now, could you argue otherwise? Certainly. I think those three are bunched so closely together right now that that any order would be feasible. I personally believe that Curry is the fifth most valuable offensive player in NBA history (LeBron first, MJ second, Shaq third, Wilt fourth). KD and Kawhi are great, but I think there's a drop off there that informs my choice to rank Curry ahead of them. If you think Curry is closer to the 10-15 range on offense, and you rate KD's defense particularly highly, then maybe put KD ahead of him, or if you think Kawhi is the greatest perimeter defender of all time, then there's an argument there too. But I want the guy who makes everyone better, not the one who scores for himself and takes out one opposing player.

Heediot
06-14-2019, 10:36 AM
this def tbh... Curry just cant do it in big time moments.

he was just shut down by the raps defense outside of game 3.

it was like how they shut down embiid.

that doesn't mean either guy sucks. embiid was still vital on defense and curry with the attention he garners and the subsequent ball movement and looks for others.

but curry didn't have that swag in him in the finals so I agree to an extent, toronto took that away from himand the injuries demoralized him.

back to the topic. KL will be ranked higher vs. Wade when it's all said and done. He has a shot to jump Durant too. Already one of the greatest 2 way wings.

More-Than-Most
06-14-2019, 10:47 AM
he was just shut down by the raps defense outside of game 3.

it was like how they shut down embiid.

that doesn't mean either guy sucks. embiid was still vital on defense and curry with the attention he garners and the subsequent ball movement and looks for others.

but curry didn't have that swag in him in the finals so I agree to an extent, toronto took that away from himand the injuries demoralized him.

back to the topic. KL will be ranked higher vs. Wade when it's all said and done. He has a shot to jump Durant too. Already one of the greatest 2 way wings.

Joel is still a game changer on defense something curry isnt or will never be... Curry is on a perfectly fit/constructed team and joel has to play a certain way for ben simmons... Curry has been force fed talent for years and is now 1-2 in finals without durant with 0 finals mvps... if the sixers ever made the finals embiid would be finals MVP every single time... The warriors are great because they are loaded and curry is a great player but once the playoffs start and you play the same team 4-7 times every other day and teams attack him he gets exposed a bit... still a great player but tonight was 100 percent another reason that hurts him..

Quinnsanity
06-14-2019, 10:48 AM
The answer is very simply, HELL YES!!!!!! I also agree with an earlier poster mentioning how dwayne is overrated by heat fans. Was he good? Yes, of course he was good. All time great?? Nah. no way. KL also showed that lebron is overrated with all the GOAT talk. KL beat basically the same Warriors team in the finals, and did it without Kyrie and KLove.

Okay this is GROSSLY untrue. First of all, Steph, Klay, Draymond and Iggy were all significantly older. Draymond and Iggy were markedly worse, and Steph was slightly worse. Livingston and Bogut were downright unplayable.

But more importantly, the Raptors won this series because of their depth. They had seven players of starter quality or better. The Warriors had three. The non-Curry/Klay Warriors shot 31 percent from three, and most of those looks were wide open because of all the attention the Splash brothers drew. Those two, meanwhile, were hounded every time they got the ball. Most of those shots were taken by players like Quinn Cook, Jonas Jerebko, Boogie, these awful defenders who are only on the floor because they have no choice.

There's a reason the Warriors' slogan is "Strength in Numbers." Those first two Kerr teams were insanely deep. Barnes, younger Bogut/Iggy/Livingston, Barbosa, Speights, these were all really high-level players who would have made a huge difference in this series. The Warriors sacrificed that depth for Durant. It was the right decision. We saw why when he played. But we also saw the downside when he got hurt. The Warriors' salary structure prevented them from building a complete team. So when they lost one star, they really had no alternative.

cmellofan15
06-14-2019, 10:52 AM
Kawhi didn't need an all timer to get it done the second time, so give me him. Damn near shot 50-40-90 for 23 games, and didn't need the assistance of the refs to win this series.

Heediot
06-14-2019, 10:54 AM
Joel is still a game changer on defense something curry isnt or will never be... Curry is on a perfectly fit/constructed team and joel has to play a certain way for ben simmons... Curry has been force fed talent for years and is now 1-2 in finals without durant with 0 finals mvps... if the sixers ever made the finals embiid would be finals MVP every single time... The warriors are great because they are loaded and curry is a great player but once the playoffs start and you play the same team 4-7 times every other day and teams attack him he gets exposed a bit... still a great player but tonight was 100 percent another reason that hurts him..

the coaching and system does help, but quinn brought up the on off numbers, that in itself deserves recognition and looked into.

i think he needed to show more these finals, so I can see your line of reasoning a bit more. I still think he's a top 5 nba guy right now, where he lands from 3-5 is fine with me. Even if others don't have him top 5, I can understand it after the raps took him out....

WaDe03
06-14-2019, 10:54 AM
Shut the **** up lmao!

Itís so funny to me still to this day how butt hurt Dallas fans are that Wade beat them. Get the **** over it lol, we were mad about 2011 but weíre over it and wade and Dirks jersey swap was one of the most iconic moments of the season. Wade is just better than dirk, itís ok Dirk is still top 20 ever.

WaDe03
06-14-2019, 10:55 AM
Recency bias at its finest. A lot of low in posters in here. Yíall said curry was better too, now look at him.

WaDe03
06-14-2019, 10:57 AM
Wade has 2 better finals series than Kawhi this year and Kawhis fmvp in 2014 was pretty weak to be honest.

Jamiecballer
06-14-2019, 10:58 AM
I think Lowry & Wade numbers were nearly the same this season lolAnd if I squint hard enough your mom looks like Kate Upton

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Dade County
06-14-2019, 10:59 AM
The answer is very simply, HELL YES!!!!!! I also agree with an earlier poster mentioning how dwayne is overrated by heat fans. Was he good? Yes, of course he was good. All time great?? Nah. no way. KL also showed that lebron is overrated with all the GOAT talk. KL beat basically the same Warriors team in the finals, and did it without Kyrie and KLove.

So Lbj wouldn't have won against what happend to this Warriors team also? Smh

Jamiecballer
06-14-2019, 11:00 AM
Warriors net ratings:

2019 With Steph: +14.1
2019 Without Steph: -4.4

2018 With Steph: +13.2
2018 Without Steph: +0.1

2017 With Steph: +17.7
2017 Without Steph: -2.7

2016 With Steph: +17.7
2016 Without Steph: -5.5

2015 With Steph: +16.4
2015 Without Steph: -3.8

These numbers are absolutely bonkers. The Warriors basically go from the greatest team of all time when Steph plays to a bad one when he sits, and that's with Klay and Durant playing most of the minutes Steph rests and Klay, Durant and Draymond playing in games that he sits out.

That is how valuable Steph's gravity is. It warps the court so much that every other player on the floor gets shots that they wouldn't with literally any other teammate. At the superstar level, offense is just more important than defense. Curry, KD, and Kawhi are all in the same stratosphere as far as the points that they score themselves. The difference is the points that Curry creates for others. That, to me, trumps what Kawhi and KD do on defense.

Now, could you argue otherwise? Certainly. I think those three are bunched so closely together right now that that any order would be feasible. I personally believe that Curry is the fifth most valuable offensive player in NBA history (LeBron first, MJ second, Shaq third, Wilt fourth). KD and Kawhi are great, but I think there's a drop off there that informs my choice to rank Curry ahead of them. If you think Curry is closer to the 10-15 range on offense, and you rate KD's defense particularly highly, then maybe put KD ahead of him, or if you think Kawhi is the greatest perimeter defender of all time, then there's an argument there too. But I want the guy who makes everyone better, not the one who scores for himself and takes out one opposing player.Am I the only one who thinks "gravity" has no place in the discussion of how good someone is

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Dade County
06-14-2019, 11:03 AM
Kawhi didn't need an all timer to get it done the second time, so give me him. Damn near shot 50-40-90 for 23 games, and didn't need the assistance of the refs to win this series.

You're not factoring the League helping him at all. You have to see whats underneath the underneath #Kakashi

The League is trying to fight back against Lbj & Co.

GREATNESS ONE
06-14-2019, 11:03 AM
:laugh2: I just came here for Wadeís posts

WaDe03
06-14-2019, 11:04 AM
Am I the only one who thinks "gravity" has no place in the discussion of how good someone is

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Itís one of the dumbest ****ing things Iíve ever heard of. When you have to come up with new ******** like gravity to support a player youíre more than likely losing the argument.

WaDe03
06-14-2019, 11:05 AM
:laugh2: I just came here for Wadeís posts

Stop it lol!!!

WaDe03
06-14-2019, 11:06 AM
Funny thing about this is itís a Mavs fan taking a shot at Wade when you could literally flip the title to Dirk and have the same discussion and argument. Wade and dirk are pretty damn close so if youíre going to say Kawhi is better than Wade (he isnít) then youíre basically saying heís better than dirk.

Jamiecballer
06-14-2019, 11:07 AM
Itís one of the dumbest ****ing things Iíve ever heard of. When you have to come up with new ******** like gravity to support a player youíre more than likely losing the argument.Like, I'm not saying it's not a thing, nor am I saying it isnt very valuable. But talk of all-time greats should focus on what they are directly responsible for doing.

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Heediot
06-14-2019, 11:07 AM
Am I the only one who thinks "gravity" has no place in the discussion of how good someone is

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it has value, the fear factor of curry's shooting and harden's flopping does make a big impact on the floor.. especially during the regular season and earlier playoff rounds. the team plays/builds off/around that.

Oakmont_4
06-14-2019, 11:08 AM
Warriors net ratings:

2019 With Steph: +14.1
2019 Without Steph: -4.4

2018 With Steph: +13.2
2018 Without Steph: +0.1

2017 With Steph: +17.7
2017 Without Steph: -2.7

2016 With Steph: +17.7
2016 Without Steph: -5.5

2015 With Steph: +16.4
2015 Without Steph: -3.8

These numbers are absolutely bonkers. The Warriors basically go from the greatest team of all time when Steph plays to a bad one when he sits, and that's with Klay and Durant playing most of the minutes Steph rests and Klay, Durant and Draymond playing in games that he sits out.

That is how valuable Steph's gravity is. It warps the court so much that every other player on the floor gets shots that they wouldn't with literally any other teammate. At the superstar level, offense is just more important than defense. Curry, KD, and Kawhi are all in the same stratosphere as far as the points that they score themselves. The difference is the points that Curry creates for others. That, to me, trumps what Kawhi and KD do on defense.

Now, could you argue otherwise? Certainly. I think those three are bunched so closely together right now that that any order would be feasible. I personally believe that Curry is the fifth most valuable offensive player in NBA history (LeBron first, MJ second, Shaq third, Wilt fourth). KD and Kawhi are great, but I think there's a drop off there that informs my choice to rank Curry ahead of them. If you think Curry is closer to the 10-15 range on offense, and you rate KD's defense particularly highly, then maybe put KD ahead of him, or if you think Kawhi is the greatest perimeter defender of all time, then there's an argument there too. But I want the guy who makes everyone better, not the one who scores for himself and takes out one opposing player.

Whatís the sample sizes on those numbers? I need a full season. When a team is built around a player, and that player is not there for some games, of course there will be drop off. Heís obviously a great player. Iím not saying he isnít.

The only way to answer the question Iím asking is to see next year what they look like without Klay and Curry as a leader of a team without a close second as Kawhi has already proven

WaDe03
06-14-2019, 11:09 AM
Kawhi does get props for doing this in some ****ing new balances though lmao!

WaDe03
06-14-2019, 11:12 AM
Like, I'm not saying it's not a thing, nor am I saying it isnt very valuable. But talk of all-time greats should focus on what they are directly responsible for doing.

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I agree.

warfelg
06-14-2019, 11:18 AM
Whatís the sample sizes on those numbers? I need a full season. When a team is built around a player, and that player is not there for some games, of course there will be drop off. Heís obviously a great player. Iím not saying he isnít.

The only way to answer the question Iím asking is to see next year what they look like without Klay and Curry as a leader of a team without a close second as Kawhi has already proven

I want to add....I think next year is going to be a major positive or negative on Steve Kerr as a coach because of this.

cmellofan15
06-14-2019, 11:22 AM
Kawhi does get props for doing this in some ****ing new balances though lmao!

Never even considered buying anything NB until I saw the Board Man Gets Paid shirt

WaDe03
06-14-2019, 11:28 AM
Same cmello 😂

Letís take the curry discussion to a ďis Steph the most/one of the most overrated players ever threadĒ and get that going. Iím getting off here but want to jump into that convo later because he consistently chokes and underperforms when it matters most. Every ring he has is tainted and weak as ****.

R. Johnson#3
06-14-2019, 11:34 AM
Wade has 2 better finals series than Kawhi this year and Kawhis fmvp in 2014 was pretty weak to be honest.

But Wade only has 1 finals MVP while Kawhi has 2? So if Wade had 2 better finals series than Kawhi it must mean that he had TONS of help considering he didn't win finals MVP in either of those years.

Switch
06-14-2019, 11:34 AM
I don't think this should even be a question. Kawhi > Wade

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WaDe03
06-14-2019, 11:54 AM
But Wade only has 1 finals MVP while Kawhi has 2? So if Wade had 2 better finals series than Kawhi it must mean that he had TONS of help considering he didn't win finals MVP in either of those years.

Recency bias brother itíll fade.

WaDe03
06-14-2019, 11:56 AM
You all should be ashamed of yourself. Iím not even going to entertain it because itís not a discussion yet. Kawhi is top 35 all time now though. Hell of a player.

R. Johnson#3
06-14-2019, 12:04 PM
Recency bias brother itíll fade.

Couldnít even respond within your own parameters.

All trolling aside though I actually do think Kawhi is above Wade.

ewing
06-14-2019, 12:22 PM
Dudes only been in the league 7 years. He sat last year and it took him a couple years to develop into a really good offensive player. I think Khawi now versus Wade at his best is a good question. Better all time is still clearly Wade.

WaDe03
06-14-2019, 12:56 PM
Dudes only been in the league 7 years. He sat last year and it took him a couple years to develop into a really good offensive player. I think Khawi now versus Wade at his best is a good question. Better all time is still clearly Wade.

Exactly lmao itís baffling to me. I wish this board had smarter posters so I could take it more serious at times.

WaDe03
06-14-2019, 01:23 PM
Couldnít even respond within your own parameters.

All trolling aside though I actually do think Kawhi is above Wade.

Iíd expect nothing less he just got you all your first championship

Quinnsanity
06-14-2019, 01:40 PM
You all should be ashamed of yourself. Iím not even going to entertain it because itís not a discussion yet. Kawhi is top 35 all time now though. Hell of a player.

This is such a copout. You know that Kawhi is better at basketball than Wade, you're just hiding behind his age to avoid admitting it. We really don't need to see another four or five years of Kawhi being the same player that he's been to prove anything in regards to Wade. Kawhi is better at basketball. He is more skilled. I'm not saying longevity doesn't matter, but let's be honest, you were just looking for an excuse to dismiss Kawhi and defend your favorite player.

Jamiecballer
06-14-2019, 02:01 PM
Recency bias brother itíll fade.

that's a funny thing to say since you yourself have acknowledged that the winner of a series tells you which player is better

WaDe03
06-14-2019, 05:32 PM
that's a funny thing to say since you yourself have acknowledged that the winner of a series tells you which player is better

Did he just go head to head with an even supporting cast and beat prime wade?

WaDe03
06-14-2019, 05:35 PM
This is such a copout. You know that Kawhi is better at basketball than Wade, you're just hiding behind his age to avoid admitting it. We really don't need to see another four or five years of Kawhi being the same player that he's been to prove anything in regards to Wade. Kawhi is better at basketball. He is more skilled. I'm not saying longevity doesn't matter, but let's be honest, you were just looking for an excuse to dismiss Kawhi and defend your favorite player.

Absolutely not. Itís not even close. Wade was never bailed out and led by a role player in his prime, ever. Kawhi managed to get a ring against a team where 3 if itís top 5 players tore an acl ruptured an Achilles and just returned from a torn quad/Achilles. I assure you Iím not hiding from it, itís a fact that Kawhi is not better yíall gotta chill. Wade was better his 2nd year in the league than Kawhi is now and thatís a fact.

Redrum187
06-14-2019, 08:34 PM
Funny thing about this is itís a Mavs fan taking a shot at Wade when you could literally flip the title to Dirk and have the same discussion and argument. Wade and dirk are pretty damn close so if youíre going to say Kawhi is better than Wade (he isnít) then youíre basically saying heís better than dirk.

Not really. I have Wade several players behind Dirk. Although, you do pose a good question... How you view Wade is how my homerism makes me feel about Dirk. However, I can be objective and admit, Dirk and Kawhi are a lot closer now than they were a few years ago, or even now that Kawhi is a 2019 champ.

You probably think I'm a "Dallas" fan... No, I do watch Dallas and Spurs games (I live in Texas and watched them my entire life). Dirk and Duncan were my 1A and 1B favorite players. Ginobili was in my top 5. In terms of favorite active players, Luka Doncic is probably my 1A or 1B, followed by Kawhi Leonard (PSD knows I was gay for him even before his 2014 FMVP run). He was 1 free throw make away from being a 3x Champ and FMVP... I got over that though... that wasn't on the refs.

Anyways, Wade is a great player. I just don't think he does anything better than Kawhi outside of playmaking.

Redrum187
06-14-2019, 08:42 PM
But Wade only has 1 finals MVP while Kawhi has 2? So if Wade had 2 better finals series than Kawhi it must mean that he had TONS of help considering he didn't win finals MVP in either of those years.

This is an excellent point which can't be overstated. I also mentioned how Kawhi beat a prime Wade and LeBron... Before 2019, Dirk Nowitzki and Tim Duncan/Kawhi were the "super team" killers. They were the only teams to stop LeBron/Wade/Bosh. Then the Warriors came along and dominated the league. They get 72 wins, lose in the finals, and get a top 3 player in the NBA followed by Cousins. This makes the Miami Heat super team look like child's play. Kawhi slays the unstoppable force that is known as the Golden State Warriors. Even though Dirk is my favorite player of all time, Kawhi takes the crown away as the unanimous "Super Team Slayer". He has the biggest d-ck in the world and all our girlfriends, wives, and mothers want it.

Redrum187
06-14-2019, 08:53 PM
Dudes only been in the league 7 years. He sat last year and it took him a couple years to develop into a really good offensive player. I think Khawi now versus Wade at his best is a good question. Better all time is still clearly Wade.

In those years though, he still managed to get enough accolades to put him over Wade in my book though.

Multiple top 5 MVP vote getters
2x Defensive Player of the Year (back-to-back)
2x FMVP (a free throw away from 3x FMVP)
Unanimous "Super Team Slayer" (he was always the underdog in the matchups)
Postseason numbers skyrocket
With the exception of play-making, he does literally everything better than Wade offensively
Much more versatile defender
No assistance from crooked refs/no tainted championships

If people have Wade higher than Kawhi based on longevity, then I can deal with that. If Kawhi plays at a minimum of his San Antonio Spurs days for a couple more seasons, I don't think even the biggest Wade supporter can continue to have Wade above Kawhi though.

Redrum187
06-14-2019, 08:57 PM
This is such a copout. You know that Kawhi is better at basketball than Wade, you're just hiding behind his age to avoid admitting it. We really don't need to see another four or five years of Kawhi being the same player that he's been to prove anything in regards to Wade. Kawhi is better at basketball. He is more skilled. I'm not saying longevity doesn't matter, but let's be honest, you were just looking for an excuse to dismiss Kawhi and defend your favorite player.

Longevity is literally the only Wade has right now. I wouldn't even say "longevity" because Wade's isn't that good either. It's more "duration" than "longevity". I predict Kawhi will have a significantly longer "longevity" than Wade's career, but Kawhi JUST hit his NBA prime (he's like 28).

THE MTL
06-14-2019, 10:02 PM
He needs more time in my opinion

WaDe03
06-14-2019, 11:03 PM
This is an excellent point which can't be overstated. I also mentioned how Kawhi beat a prime Wade and LeBron... Before 2019, Dirk Nowitzki and Tim Duncan/Kawhi were the "super team" killers. They were the only teams to stop LeBron/Wade/Bosh. Then the Warriors came along and dominated the league. They get 72 wins, lose in the finals, and get a top 3 player in the NBA followed by Cousins. This makes the Miami Heat super team look like child's play. Kawhi slays the unstoppable force that is known as the Golden State Warriors. Even though Dirk is my favorite player of all time, Kawhi takes the crown away as the unanimous "Super Team Slayer". He has the biggest d-ck in the world and all our girlfriends, wives, and mothers want it.

Imagine thinking 2014 was prime Wade lol. Youíre showing you donít know much at all.

smith&wesson
06-14-2019, 11:26 PM
Kawhi is what 27-28 years old ?? Heís got time

Redrum187
06-15-2019, 06:51 AM
Imagine thinking 2014 was prime Wade lol. Youíre showing you donít know much at all.

Fair point, I looked at his age (32) and that's typically the tail end of prime. His prime was earlier. Nevertheless, prime LeBron was better than prime Wade... and Kawhi still slayed prime LeBron in conjunction with a career efficient Wade in 2014.

You sort of skim over all the facts and focus on one minor detail. smh

Jamiecballer
06-15-2019, 08:23 AM
Did he just go head to head with an even supporting cast and beat prime wade?You are just dodging the point. Recency bias is recency bias. You cant accuse others of it when you strongly demonstrate it on other topics and think someone wont point it out.

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smith&wesson
06-15-2019, 11:00 AM
Fair point, I looked at his age (32) and that's typically the tail end of prime. His prime was earlier. Nevertheless, prime LeBron was better than prime Wade... and Kawhi still slayed prime LeBron in conjunction with a career efficient Wade in 2014.

You sort of skim over all the facts and focus on one minor detail. smh

Iíd say his prime started when he won his first ship in 2005-06... thatís when he was ďflashĒ

smith&wesson
06-15-2019, 11:04 AM
i think itís a pretty close race, but if kawhi continues to play at this level I think he will easily be considered the better player by the end of his career.

YAALREADYKNO
06-15-2019, 11:07 AM
Yíall need to quit playing with WaDe03ís emotions like that LMAO but in all seriousness, I think this is a case of ďbeing caught up in the momentĒ. Prime Wade was doing in a better defensive era with less talent around him before Lebron and Bosh and after Shaq left. Lets not forget that.

YAALREADYKNO
06-15-2019, 11:09 AM
I mean, what is Wade really better at than Kawhi? Better passer for sure. Otherwise? I don't think it's all that close. In fact, I think this thread shoots too low.

Right now, I think there's a 13-man list that's fairly unimpeachable. It's, in some order, MJ, LeBron, Russell, Kareem, Wilt, Magic, Bird, Shaq, Duncan, Hakeem, Oscar, Jerry and Kobe. If you're measuring players on a combination of accomplishment and ability combined instead of just one or the other, that's your list.

Then I think we have three modern players butting heads for the next three slots. In some order, it's Curry, KD and Kawhi, and all three are neck-and-neck. I think when you're talking about multiple championships and multiple MVPs (of either the regular season or the Finals variety), you've surpassed players way higher than Wade. The Dirks and the Barkleys and the Dr. J's of the world are also in the rear-view mirror. I'd personally put Moses behind those three as well just because his MVPs came at a fairly weak moment in league history, though the strength of his championship probably has him right after that group.

As far as ranking those three guys? My personal list at the moment is Curry first, KD second, Kawhi third. The "Curry isn't a closer!" **** is so overblown, and what he creates for his teammates is unlike any force in NBA history. KD has the slight edge over Kawhi because of longevity and because of the uniqueness of his body. But I could see this list shuffling into any order when it's all said and done.

LMAO at curry being better than those guys you just named

YAALREADYKNO
06-15-2019, 11:13 AM
Fair point, I looked at his age (32) and that's typically the tail end of prime. His prime was earlier. Nevertheless, prime LeBron was better than prime Wade... and Kawhi still slayed prime LeBron in conjunction with a career efficient Wade in 2014.

You sort of skim over all the facts and focus on one minor detail. smh

It was more so the Spurs as a team slaying the Heat. Not just Kawhi. Multiple guys on the Spurs couldíve won finals mvp and nobody was gonna have a problem with it.

WaDe03
06-15-2019, 03:44 PM
It was more so the Spurs as a team slaying the Heat. Not just Kawhi. Multiple guys on the Spurs couldíve won finals mvp and nobody was gonna have a problem with it.

Exactly. Dude averaged 18-6 letís not act like he just completely dominated the series.

WaDe03
06-15-2019, 03:45 PM
Bunch of low iq posters here. Itís a shame. Hate to see it.

Chronz
06-15-2019, 04:52 PM
Am I the only one who thinks "gravity" has no place in the discussion of how good someone is

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you should be, any time teams think to themselves, lets give this KD guy a dunk instead of giving Curry an open 3, its worth mentioning the influence that has on winning and losing..

Chronz
06-15-2019, 04:52 PM
Itís one of the dumbest ****ing things Iíve ever heard of. When you have to come up with new ******** like gravity to support a player youíre more than likely losing the argument.

gravity is new to you?

Chronz
06-15-2019, 04:58 PM
It really sucks that Wade was the lil engine that could, just barely eclipsing that height/length requirement to truly carry. his body paid the price for it. its hard to answer atm

Redrum187
06-15-2019, 06:49 PM
Bunch of low iq posters here. Itís a shame. Hate to see it.

Okay, so please respond substantively.

Aside from play-making, what area(s) of the game is Dwyane Wade better than Kawhi?

Jamiecballer
06-15-2019, 07:39 PM
you should be, any time teams think to themselves, lets give this KD guy a dunk instead of giving Curry an open 3, its worth mentioning the influence that has on winning and losing..Right, but what if I don't make that choice? None. I'm not saying it has no impact, not at all. It just has as much to do with how opponents respond to him as anything he actually does. It really does sum up the Kevin Durant is the best player on the Warriors and Curry is the most important discussion. Curry's case is circumstantial, Kevin Durants is not.

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Chronz
06-15-2019, 08:03 PM
Right, but what if I don't make that choice? None. I'm not saying it has no impact, not at all. It just has as much to do with how opponents respond to him as anything he actually does. It really does sum up the Kevin Durant is the best player on the Warriors and Curry is the most important discussion. Curry's case is circumstantial, Kevin Durants is not.

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i fail to see how teams preferring you go unaccounted for is a sign of superiority. didnt that college coach brag about shutting down steph curry only he was given soo much attention his team blew them out? yeah, you'd be a real idiot if you denied the impact his presence had on that game despite his scoring.

i dont see how KD isn't circumstantial when hes literally failed to higher degrees. hes only thrived when he joined that mans team.

Heediot
06-15-2019, 08:11 PM
Right, but what if I don't make that choice? None. I'm not saying it has no impact, not at all. It just has as much to do with how opponents respond to him as anything he actually does. It really does sum up the Kevin Durant is the best player on the Warriors and Curry is the most important discussion. Curry's case is circumstantial, Kevin Durants is not.

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Every player's success is circumstantial to some degree though. You blame RW for KD's success isn't that circumstantial?

Quinnsanity
06-15-2019, 09:06 PM
Okay, so please respond substantively.

Aside from play-making, what area(s) of the game is Dwyane Wade better than Kawhi?

Exactly. Kawhi is a better defender by far. He's a better three-point shooter by far. He's a better rebounder. He's probably a slightly better isolation scorer.

Jamiecballer
06-15-2019, 09:26 PM
i fail to see how teams preferring you go unaccounted for is a sign of superiority. didnt that college coach brag about shutting down steph curry only he was given soo much attention his team blew them out?
not sure where you are going with this. in fact i dont even understand the first sentence there or how that relates to what I said.


i dont see how KD isn't circumstantial when hes literally failed to higher degrees. hes only thrived when he joined that mans team.
KD has been a dominant force for a decade, not sure where you've been. he accomplished a hell of a lot with OKC considering his running mate.



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Jamiecballer
06-15-2019, 09:34 PM
Every player's success is circumstantial to some degree though. You blame RW for KD's success isn't that circumstantial?That not quite what I mean. I mean I can watch Kevin Durant go through a series of drills and see his incredible package of skills. To me its dumb to credit someone for something comlletely outside of his control. It's not a skill. The skill is the 3 point shot, and hes already given ample credit for that.

I feel like this question of just how good curry is is answered every year by his play in the finals.

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valade16
06-15-2019, 10:03 PM
The last 3 playoffs in which Kawhi has played his stats are:

28.0 PPG | 8.1 RPG | 3.8 APG | 1.9 SPG | 50% FG | 40.6% 3PT | 88.9% FT | 28.9 PER | .628 TS% | .270 WS/48 | 9.7 BPM

That is over 46 playoff games. Wades prime (06-11) (60 games) was:

27.2 PPG | 6.1 RPG | 5.3 APG | 1.7 SPG | 48.7% FG | 33.7% 3PT | 78.7% FT | 26.1 PER | .580 TS% | .206 WS/48 | 8.0 BPM


There has been a 6 game stretch where Wade was better than Kawhi in the playoffs, but there has never been a 46 game stretch where Wade was better than Kawhi in the playoffs.


Wade is greater because of his achievements, but Kawhi is clearly the more impactful playoff performer.

Heediot
06-16-2019, 04:47 AM
That not quite what I mean. I mean I can watch Kevin Durant go through a series of drills and see his incredible package of skills. To me its dumb to credit someone for something comlletely outside of his control. It's not a skill. The skill is the 3 point shot, and hes already given ample credit for that.

I feel like this question of just how good curry is is answered every year by his play in the finals.

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Curry has the ability to do more vs. shoot. His ability to run off screens and draw defenders off screens is elite. His ability recognize the defense/double teams and read the floor is elite. His feel is a tonne better vs. KD.

Look at KD's shooting numbers without Curry in the playoffs, and look at his percentages in the playoffs in OKC. Both guys benefit from the attention they each get from opposing defenses in their symbiotic relationship in GS. To me they are both flawed, but some don't recognize that about KD. KD isn't Super consistent outside GS like Bron and Kawhi in the playoffs, because like Curry you can screw with him physically and his handles are very good for a big, but when you force him to handle it too much it also becomes expo-sable.

I think they are both over-rated in their on ways. I feel Curry's impact with his shooting/feel/play-making super-cedes a lot of guys two way ability, that is proven by the numbers quinnsanity posted. Like I said everyone is effected by circumstances/coaches/mates. If you play Bron with Embiid, Dennis Rodman, and Dennis smith, he'll be easier to defend too.. LeBron shot less then .40 in his first finals against GS without other guys drawing attention like Kyrie and Love, what does that mean??

Chronz
06-16-2019, 02:14 PM
not sure where you are going with this. in fact i dont even understand the first sentence there or how that relates to what I said.

KD has been a dominant force for a decade, not sure where you've been. he accomplished a hell of a lot with OKC considering his running mate.



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It was going towards where you have to explain why an allegedly superior player is in fact a defensive afterthought in comparison to the true engine of winning.

KD has been a less dominant force and his running mates were several MVP caliber players. How does this help your argument?

Raps18-19 Champ
06-16-2019, 03:08 PM
If he plays at a top level for another 5 years, I think he will pass him. He only played as the man for 3 years so he need more longevity. He lost 1 year due to the injury though he did get his 1 DPOY and 1 FMVP before he became the 1st option.

R. Johnson#3
06-16-2019, 03:59 PM
Exactly. Dude averaged 18-6 letís not act like he just completely dominated the series.

And who was he guarding on the other end most of the time?

Dade County
06-16-2019, 05:13 PM
Okay, so please respond substantively.

Aside from play-making, what area(s) of the game is Dwyane Wade better than Kawhi?

At the same age Kawhi is know, D Wade was a good defender, great help defender, Best shoot blocking 2 guard ever.

Also try to factor in this new area playing style. Sure you can say Kawhi is an all around better defender, but Wade was so good, that you can just because of that alone Kawhi is so much better then Wade.

Wade at Kawhi same age, would literally destroy teams in this area. So the if you like Kawhi better thats fine; but I would chose Wade at the same age of Kawhi ever single time.

Just think about if both teams were even, and you put Kawhi one 1 side & Wade on the other team, and both players are the same age. I pick Wade team.

Dade County
06-16-2019, 05:20 PM
Exactly. Kawhi is a better defender by far. He's a better three-point shooter by far. He's a better rebounder. He's probably a slightly better isolation scorer.

I disagree on the scoring.

Wade in this new style era of playing might avg between 32-37pts a game. He wold get to the foul line on any given night between 8-13 times a game; this decimates a defense.

Wade is also a far superior playmaker, to the point that alone would let a Wade lead team run pass most teams.

Dade County
06-16-2019, 05:24 PM
The last 3 playoffs in which Kawhi has played his stats are:

28.0 PPG | 8.1 RPG | 3.8 APG | 1.9 SPG | 50% FG | 40.6% 3PT | 88.9% FT | 28.9 PER | .628 TS% | .270 WS/48 | 9.7 BPM

That is over 46 playoff games. Wades prime (06-11) (60 games) was:

27.2 PPG | 6.1 RPG | 5.3 APG | 1.7 SPG | 48.7% FG | 33.7% 3PT | 78.7% FT | 26.1 PER | .580 TS% | .206 WS/48 | 8.0 BPM


There has been a 6 game stretch where Wade was better than Kawhi in the playoffs, but there has never been a 46 game stretch where Wade was better than Kawhi in the playoffs.


Wade is greater because of his achievements, but Kawhi is clearly the more impactful playoff performer.

You are not factoring in this new play style era. TMac stated that if he played in this era, he would score nearly 38-41pts a game; of course we know he is talking crap, but he is right, he would dominate scoring wise very easily.

Like I have stated before, D Wade is a totally different animal. I don't know why anyone would want to compare Kawhi to Wade, 2 totally different players.

The thread maker should have compared Kawhi to other SF...smh

This has to be a hate thread.

Dade County
06-16-2019, 05:30 PM
He needs more time in my opinion


Kawhi is what 27-28 years old ?? Heís got time

Agreed.

But comparing Kawhi to Wade doesn't even make sense to me.


i think itís a pretty close race, but if kawhi continues to play at this level I think he will easily be considered the better player by the end of his career.

As long as people that are in the know, factor in that this is a completely different era of basketball, and they should factor in, if a prime Wade played with shooters all around him & on top of that, more touchy foul calls.

Don't forget layers like Wade & Kobe get lots of foul calls do to their play style.

Yeah, I'm rolling with Wade.

Redrum187
06-16-2019, 07:06 PM
The last 3 playoffs in which Kawhi has played his stats are:

28.0 PPG | 8.1 RPG | 3.8 APG | 1.9 SPG | 50% FG | 40.6% 3PT | 88.9% FT | 28.9 PER | .628 TS% | .270 WS/48 | 9.7 BPM

That is over 46 playoff games. Wades prime (06-11) (60 games) was:

27.2 PPG | 6.1 RPG | 5.3 APG | 1.7 SPG | 48.7% FG | 33.7% 3PT | 78.7% FT | 26.1 PER | .580 TS% | .206 WS/48 | 8.0 BPM


There has been a 6 game stretch where Wade was better than Kawhi in the playoffs, but there has never been a 46 game stretch where Wade was better than Kawhi in the playoffs.


Wade is greater because of his achievements, but Kawhi is clearly the more impactful playoff performer.

Damn, I didn't look at them side-by-side... Really good catch. It's fairly easily proven that Kawhi is superior in the playoffs, something Wade has historically been overrated on about ironically.

Redrum187
06-16-2019, 07:19 PM
At the same age Kawhi is know, D Wade was a good defender, great help defender, Best shoot blocking 2 guard ever.

Yet, objectively, we all agree Kawhi is on an entirely different level defensively. The fact Wade played Shooting-Guard and blocked a lot of shots is cute, but Kawhi could play either wing position in addition to defending even better. So your point is 100% moot. We know Kawhi was better on that end that it's not really even worth debating. (I do agree Wade was a good defender though.)


Also try to factor in this new area playing style. Sure you can say Kawhi is an all around better defender, but Wade was so good, that you can just because of that alone Kawhi is so much better then Wade.

I'm not really sure what you're trying to say. In the 2000's play style or in today's ball, Kawhi is unquestionably better than Wade defensively. That much 99% of us will agree on.


Wade at Kawhi same age, would literally destroy teams in this area. So the if you like Kawhi better thats fine; but I would chose Wade at the same age of Kawhi ever single time.

How would he destroy teams better than Kawhi is currently doing? You're giving an opinion with no sauce. Wade was getting James Harden type foul call treatment back then just as Harden is getting now. Wade would do well in the league today.... no question... but that doesn't mean he'd do so better than Kawhi.

Kawhi has beaten 2 super teams, won 2x FMVP, multiple top 5 MVP vote getters, 2x DPOY, etc... I know you might not react kindly to mentioning the officiating controversy in the 2006 Finals, but to not mention the huge asterisk in Wade's lone championship or how he was riding LeBron's coattails as Robin for his other 2 championships is unfairly elevating Wade over Kawhi. Wade has not done what Kawhi has done as of 2019 with or without the 2006 NBA Finals controversy.


Just think about if both teams were even, and you put Kawhi one 1 side & Wade on the other team, and both players are the same age. I pick Wade team.

I pick the player who literally does everything better than Wade with the exception of play-making. Thankfully, Kawhi isn't a point-guard, and I get make-up for the dip in play-making with a more consistent distributor.

The question still remains: Other than play-making, what doesn't Kawhi do better than Wade? It's been left unanswered.

basch152
06-16-2019, 07:31 PM
if Kawhi keeps playing the way he has he'll easily end up a top 10 player of all time.

Redrum187
06-16-2019, 07:31 PM
You are not factoring in this new play style era. TMac stated that if he played in this era, he would score nearly 38-41pts a game; of course we know he is talking crap, but he is right, he would dominate scoring wise very easily.

Like I have stated before, D Wade is a totally different animal. I don't know why anyone would want to compare Kawhi to Wade, 2 totally different players.

The thread maker should have compared Kawhi to other SF...smh

This has to be a hate thread.

There is so much wrong with your post though. Firstly, SG and SF are simply positions. I agree, back in Wade's prime, teams didn't really think much about "positionless" ball. For the last 10+ years, SG and SF are interchangeable. It doesn't matter that Kawhi is labeled a SF when he could absolutely play SG full time. They are "wings"... but I agree, they have vastly different skillsets. Kawhi is skilled/superior in all aspects of basketball save it be for playmaking. Also, Wade was always getting those calls in his prime... You're trying to make it seem like the eras are so different that Wade didn't get those James Harden foul calls regularly. James Harden is a much more gifted offensive player than Wade and he does what Wade use to do (offensively). I don't see Wade being more dangerous than Harden on offense.

Quinnsanity
06-16-2019, 11:33 PM
I disagree on the scoring.

Wade in this new style era of playing might avg between 32-37pts a game. He wold get to the foul line on any given night between 8-13 times a game; this decimates a defense.

Wade is also a far superior playmaker, to the point that alone would let a Wade lead team run pass most teams.

If you think any non-shooter is scoring 32-37 per game in this era, I don't know what to tell you. MVP Russell Westbrook, with the highest usage rate in NBA history by a wide margin, did not average 32 per game. None of the best centers in this small-ball era, not Anthony Davis, not Joel Embiid, not Karl Towns, averaged 32 per game. FULLY HEALTHY LEBRON JAMES, with shooters all around him, came in at 27.4 in his last Cleveland season and has never topped 30.

I don't think you appreciate a) how much harder defenses play now than they did even a decade ago, b) how much smarter defenses are now than they were a decade ago, and c) how little tolerance this league has for non-shooting ball-dominant guards. Ben Simmons has played two seasons and we've already seen think pieces about how he might be useless in the playoffs.

Wade is a tremendous player. I don't understand why Heat fans have to get so defensive about him. It's not insulting to say a player is worse than Kawhi Leonard. Most players are. But I swear, some of the takes in this thread...

Dade County
06-17-2019, 01:13 AM
Yet, objectively, we all agree Kawhi is on an entirely different level defensively.

I'm not using the word "entirely different level"... Thats you. I believe their defense isn't that greatly far apart.

Yes Kawhi all around is the better man on man defender. But as a help defender I can see them being equal or I can give Wade the edge.



The fact Wade played Shooting-Guard and blocked a lot of shots is cute, but Kawhi could play either wing position in addition to defending even better. So your point is 100% moot. We know Kawhi was better on that end that it's not really even worth debating. (I do agree Wade was a good defender though.)

Wade was one of the best defenders, when healthy. Kawhi is just built for it body wise.




I'm not really sure what you're trying to say. In the 2000's play style or in today's ball, Kawhi is unquestionably better than Wade defensively. That much 99% of us will agree on.

I believe I was focus on Wades offense at this part of my post.




How would he destroy teams better than Kawhi is currently doing?

Wade agility, first step and explosiveness is far superior then Kawhi & a whole lot of players. In his prime, he can spilt the high pick & roll so quickly that caused teams to many problems.

Now you put him in this era of play style & theirs mostly shooters on the court, well damn. If you guys think that Giannis is doing something, well, i guess you most of forgot.

Trying to compare Wade in this era with the ball in his hand, to Kawhi; it's just two totally different play styles. Kawhi game is just much different offensively. Not taking anything away from kawhi.

kawhi midrange is super nice, 3pt shooting, a little back to the basket game.

It's just that Wade style creates more havoc on the opposing team.



You're giving an opinion with no sauce. Wade was getting James Harden type foul call treatment back then just as Harden is getting now.

I think it's fair if you start of with Jordan super star foul call, then if you want to skip to Kobe, then Wade. But I agree, each and everyone of them got calls.



Wade would do well in the league today.... no question...

He would dominate without question. What they hell could the opposing team do? Foul out. Playes like TMac & a young Actress would do very well too.



but that doesn't mean he'd do so better than Kawhi.

To me, Wade would 1 up him in stardom, but thats just because he would be too much of an offensive force today.

But I can agree maybe not sooooo much better, then Kawhi. Kawhi is very good man. I don't put him on the same level as Lbj or KD. & Curry in that GS system is tough to handle.

I place Kawhi just a little beneath Lbj & KD. Right above players like George Paul & Harden. But it's tough for me to compare him to players like AD.



Kawhi has beaten 2 super teams,

Here is going to be a major problem for you. I don't see the League how most fans see the League.

I believe when ordered these games/series are rigged. So you saying Kawhi has taken down 2 Super Teams, just know I do not believe that. Period.

Kawhi knows why he has his first ring, and he knows what the hell happened to the Warriors this past Final's.



won 2x FMVP, multiple top 5 MVP vote getters, 2x DPOY, etc... I know you might not react kindly to mentioning the officiating controversy in the 2006 Finals,

You damn right I do, Wade got 97 foul calls.

NBA=Entertainment. & I was entertained.



but to not mention the huge asterisk in Wade's lone championship or how he was riding LeBron's coattails as Robin for his other 2 championships is unfairly elevating Wade over Kawhi.

Try again...

Well if you start from the Stern Era, and bring up all rigged titles, when we get to Wade in 2006, we can share are thoughts.

Lbj might not have any titles, if it wasn't for Wade & Riley. What are you talking about? Lbj didn't know how to win anything before he learned done in Miami. & when he left, he went 1-3. Thats on him.

When I think about Lbj, my first thoughts, is that he gave Miami their first loss in the Final's. He gave Wade his first loss, thats what I think about. Were you around PSD to read my post from back then???

This man gave Dirk a championship. I wrote all of this back then. AkA following orders.



Wade has not done what Kawhi has done as of 2019 with or without the 2006 NBA Finals controversy.

I am sure each and every time kawhi see's Lbj or Wade, he gives them a hug.

It's real talk to kawhi because he knows...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NymS69shfkc




I pick the player who literally does everything better than Wade with the exception of play-making.

Don't forget about Wade being able to finish better in the paint acrobatically. A better slasher to the paint. Better player moving without the ball...etc

Wade is a better shoot blocker also. A better people person. On and on.



Thankfully, Kawhi isn't a point-guard, and I get make-up for the dip in play-making with a more consistent distributor.

The question still remains: Other than play-making, what doesn't Kawhi do better than Wade?

Read above. Also Wade dresses more unique lol



It's been left unanswered.

To you.

I'm picking Wade every single time.

Dade County
06-17-2019, 01:22 AM
There is so much wrong with your post though. Firstly, SG and SF are simply positions. I agree, back in Wade's prime, teams didn't really think much about "positionless" ball. For the last 10+ years, SG and SF are interchangeable. It doesn't matter that Kawhi is labeled a SF when he could absolutely play SG full time.

Their playing style is so different thats why.



They are "wings"... but I agree, they have vastly different skillsets. Kawhi is skilled/superior in all aspects of basketball save it be for playmaking.

To you... You are clearly judging Kawhi off of this era of basketball. Did you think this 4-5 years ago?

Wade is a different animal, you just most of forgotten or didn't watch him.



Also, Wade was always getting those calls in his prime...

if your not going to bring up all the star players names before Wade, then this is just trying to throw shade. You on your own.



You're trying to make it seem like the eras are so different that Wade didn't get those James Harden foul calls regularly. James Harden is a much more gifted offensive player than Wade and he does what Wade use to do (offensively).

You know what lol

Stick with Harden, I'm going to go with the proven Wade.

You like watching Harden play???



I don't see Wade being more dangerous than Harden on offense.

Wade wouldn't play the D'antoni style, because that style doesn't equate to winning. Just like how Curry has his style & Westbrook has his.

Different styles of offensive skills.

Dade County
06-17-2019, 01:34 AM
If you think any non-shooter is scoring 32-37 per game in this era, I don't know what to tell you.

People act like Wade was the worst at shooting mid range jumpers. But I do get your point.



MVP Russell Westbrook, with the highest usage rate in NBA history by a wide margin, did not average 32 per game.

West doesn't have the IQ as Wade or knows how to play a brand of winning basketball. All the talent though,



None of the best centers in this small-ball era, not Anthony Davis, not Joel Embiid, not Karl Towns, averaged 32 per game.

This is a wing players era.



FULLY HEALTHY LEBRON JAMES, with shooters all around him, came in at 27.4 in his last Cleveland season and has never topped 30.

I believe Lbj avj 27pts per game this season. If he WORKED on his dame free throws, he could have avg 30+.

But please remember I am talking about a Wade thats the same age as kawhi. So I do believe a younger Lbj could Avg 35+ today.



I don't think you appreciate a) how much harder defenses play now than they did even a decade ago, b) how much smarter defenses are now than they were a decade ago, and c) how little tolerance this league has for non-shooting ball-dominant guards.

The players talk about how theres not really any defense (past generation players).

Honestly, they are switching so they don't leave an open man at the 3pt line. I really don't like the basketball of today all that much.

I don't see how you can play real defense.



Ben Simmons has played two seasons and we've already seen think pieces about how he might be useless in the playoffs.

The man needs to shoot lol




Wade is a tremendous player. I don't understand why Heat fans have to get so defensive about him. It's not insulting to say a player is worse than Kawhi Leonard. Most players are. But I swear, some of the takes in this thread...

I agree with you. It's just that the thread maker could have picked a player that was closer to kawhi position and skill set.

I truly believe this was done on purpose, because it doesn't even make sense to me.

Hawkeye15
06-17-2019, 06:49 PM
Yes, assuming he has another 1-2 peak years, and a nice 3-4 of good years after that. If he were to retire right now, no, he hasn't passed Wade.

cmellofan15
06-17-2019, 11:37 PM
If you believe the league is rigged why would you ever rank players? The league manufactures these games so the skill is irrelevant, right?

Chronz
06-18-2019, 12:23 AM
You are not factoring in this new play style era. TMac stated that if he played in this era, he would score nearly 38-41pts a game; of course we know he is talking crap, but he is right, he would dominate scoring wise very easily.

Like I have stated before, D Wade is a totally different animal. I don't know why anyone would want to compare Kawhi to Wade, 2 totally different players.

The thread maker should have compared Kawhi to other SF...smh

This has to be a hate thread.

I would have docked his argument points for including that post season where Wade was CLEARLY hobbled and should have sat out the season long before. it would've helped his squad more too.

WaDe03
06-18-2019, 10:04 AM
The voting is embarrassing and shows why PSD is going down the drain. Canít expect a good forum with this level of IQ.

WaDe03
06-18-2019, 10:08 AM
And who was he guarding on the other end most of the time?

LeBron who averaged 28-8-4-2 on 68%TS with a +4 net rating in a series that we got the absolute dog **** beat out of us. LeBron was cooking the **** out of Kawhi as you can see so he got a finals MVP for averaging 18-6 and getting destroyed by LeBron lol. Like I said, letís not act like he dominated the series. It was a very weak finals MVP.