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View Full Version : Are the Golden State Warriors The Greatest Team of the Modern NBA era??



LaVar Ball
05-19-2019, 12:02 PM
To me the modern NBA era began with the arrival of Bird & Magic into the NBA in the fall of 1979. So the 1979-80 season was the first season.


Since that time, these are the teams with 3 straight trips to the finals:

Los Angeles Lakers (1987-1989)
Detroit Pistons (1988-1990)
Chicago Bulls (1991-1993)
Chicago Bulls (1996-1998)
Los Angeles Lakers (2000-2002)
Los Angeles Lakers (2008-2010)



These are the teams with 4 straight trips to the finals:

Los Angeles Lakers (1982-1985)
Boston Celtics (1984-1987)
Miami Heat (2011-2014)
Cleveland Cavaliers (2015-2018)


The Golden State Warriors are on the verge of making their 5th consecutive trip to the NBA finals (2015-2019 ... and counting) Last team to do that was the Russell-led Celtics back in the 60s.

Thoughts.

GREATNESS ONE
05-19-2019, 12:12 PM
They wouldn't be able to stop Shaq and Kobe + 50m in salary cap... they would have 0 answers for Shaq daddy.

valade16
05-19-2019, 12:20 PM
Getting to the Finals is impressive, but it's about winning. These Dubs may be the most talented team in modern NBA history, but greatness as a measure of success, it's still the MJ's Bulls. The Dubs need to get to 6 titles to match their greatness. By that measure you have:

Bulls 6 titles
80's Lakers 5 titles
Dubs soon to be 4 titles
00's Lakers/80's Celtics 3 titles

Scoots
05-19-2019, 12:53 PM
I don't have an opinion on the OP, but the Bulls 6 titles were kind of 2 3 title runs rather than 1 6 title run. Top 2 players were the same but the rest of the roster were very different.

Heediot
05-19-2019, 01:16 PM
Bulls.

More ruthless, didn't let up and rest in the regular season. The 2nd 3 peat they averaged over 67 wins per season.

Both GS and Chi were well oiled machines. These GS guys are more complacent and let teas hang around more then they should. No one had the Killer instinct and mindset of an MJ, maybe Russell but I'm too young to know anything other then stories about those C's.

cmellofan15
05-19-2019, 01:22 PM
They are second to the Bulls, but they have nearly neutered a top 3 player ever in LeBron James and they deserve a lot of credit for the competition they have faced in this era.

Also, they are still playing together so we should prolly hold off on this convo until it's all said and done for them

TrueFan420
05-19-2019, 01:22 PM
They wouldn't be able to stop Shaq and Kobe + 50m in salary cap... they would have 0 answers for Shaq daddy.
Itís roster to roster. Not take their top players and give them cap for a new team. As constructed... Boogie would have to be healthy. He and Bogut have the weight but we still wouldnít be able to stop him close to consistently. However, Shaq would be lost on defense. Wed have so many open looks from putting him in a pick and roll. Weíd also have the defenders to mess with Kobe. Klay, Iggy and KD would make him work for it for the entire game. Itís tough cause the game is officiated differently.

GREATNESS ONE
05-19-2019, 01:28 PM
Itís roster to roster. Not take their top players and give them cap for a new team. As constructed... Boogie would have to be healthy. He and Bogut have the weight but we still wouldnít be able to stop him close to consistently. However, Shaq would be lost on defense. Wed have so many open looks from putting him in a pick and roll. Weíd also have the defenders to mess with Kobe. Klay, Iggy and KD would make him work for it for the entire game. Itís tough cause the game is officiated differently.

waaaay too many variables tbh but people quick to forget how much more cap space there is nowadays, to fill the roster/team. I was just hypothetically imagining dropping that Lakers team right into today.

Wrench
05-19-2019, 02:02 PM
waaaay too many variables tbh but people quick to forget how much more cap space there is nowadays, to fill the roster/team. I was just hypothetically imagining dropping that Lakers team right into today.

More cap but guys are also paid way more. Kobe in those three seasons made 9M, 10.1M, and 11.2M, Shaq made 17.1M,19.2M and 21.4M.

This season for the Warriors - Andre Iguodala 14.8M, Curry made more than both of them combined at 34.6M.

Scoots
05-19-2019, 02:03 PM
waaaay too many variables tbh but people quick to forget how much more cap space there is nowadays, to fill the roster/team. I was just hypothetically imagining dropping that Lakers team right into today.

You'd have to scale up their salaries to today's cap to compare ... and the max contract rules would play havoc with them staying together too.

Saddletramp
05-19-2019, 02:08 PM
I don't have an opinion on the OP, but the Bulls 6 titles were kind of 2 3 title runs rather than 1 6 title run. Top 2 players were the same but the rest of the roster were very different.

Makes it even more impressive.

Scoots
05-19-2019, 02:24 PM
Makes it even more impressive.

Yes, but with those significant changes are they different teams? If you base a team on it's star player then they are the same team ... but then the Heat have 3 titles to bring to the conversation too right?

Saddletramp
05-19-2019, 02:30 PM
Yes, but with those significant changes are they different teams? If you base a team on it's star player then they are the same team ... but then the Heat have 3 titles to bring to the conversation too right?

Thatís one guy and he wasnít the reason that they won two of them.

TrueFan420
05-19-2019, 02:34 PM
waaaay too many variables tbh but people quick to forget how much more cap space there is nowadays, to fill the roster/team. I was just hypothetically imagining dropping that Lakers team right into today.

Ok but you canít forget about inflation either. Itís why you canít just say the cap went up 50 so they get an extra 50. You have to take roster to roster. Everyone on the roster would be making more now than they did then.

ewing
05-19-2019, 02:36 PM
Yes, but with those significant changes are they different teams? If you base a team on it's star player then they are the same team ... but then the Heat have 3 titles to bring to the conversation too right?

When one guy dominates the game and league to the degree MJ did itís one team


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Giannis94
05-19-2019, 02:37 PM
.

Scoots
05-19-2019, 02:57 PM
Thatís one guy and he wasnít the reason that they won two of them.

Shh, someone will get upset with you.

GREATNESS ONE
05-19-2019, 03:15 PM
Ok but you canít forget about inflation either. Itís why you canít just say the cap went up 50 so they get an extra 50. You have to take roster to roster. Everyone on the roster would be making more now than they did then.

My point still remains, they could have easily fit another max slot player...

Scoots
05-19-2019, 03:30 PM
My point still remains, they could have easily fit another max slot player...

No, you can't take a team from one year to another year, add a max player to cap space that didn't exist in the past and call the new team the same as the old one. If they were playing this year all of the salaries would go up and they would have no cap space.

nastynice
05-19-2019, 03:43 PM
Warriors don't have the same longevity factor, but in a snapshot this team with Demarcus cousins is without a doubt the greatest team ever. It's really not even a debate.

But this core will only stay together so long, so we still gotta wait to see where they'd be in an all time ranking.

goingfor28
05-19-2019, 04:08 PM
I'd absolutely take the Kobe/Shaq Lakers squads and MJ/Pippen Bulls teams over these recent Warriors teams.

smith&wesson
05-19-2019, 04:27 PM
Getting to the Finals is impressive, but it's about winning. These Dubs may be the most talented team in modern NBA history, but greatness as a measure of success, it's still the MJ's Bulls. The Dubs need to get to 6 titles to match their greatness. By that measure you have:

Bulls 6 titles
80's Lakers 5 titles
Dubs soon to be 4 titles
00's Lakers/80's Celtics 3 titles

I like this list + logic. Makes sense

smith&wesson
05-19-2019, 04:28 PM
Warriors don't have the same longevity factor, but in a snapshot this team with Demarcus cousins is without a doubt the greatest team ever. It's really not even a debate.

But this core will only stay together so long, so we still gotta wait to see where they'd be in an all time ranking.

Maybe talent wise but like others have mentioned they still need to match the level of success other teams have.

valade16
05-19-2019, 04:31 PM
No, you can't take a team from one year to another year, add a max player to cap space that didn't exist in the past and call the new team the same as the old one. If they were playing this year all of the salaries would go up and they would have no cap space.

Even bringing up the argument that the team would have another quality player in today's cap is an admission that the team as constructed historically would not be as good as the current GS team.

nastynice
05-19-2019, 04:40 PM
Maybe talent wise but like others have mentioned they still need to match the level of success other teams have.

Yea, that's what I meant. This team is the best ever in the sense that we would beat any of those other teams in a series. But not the best in the sense of most accomplished, the other teams have done it for longer, so we gotta keep adding to the resume to get there.

goingfor28
05-19-2019, 04:47 PM
Yea, that's what I meant. This team is the best ever in the sense that we would beat any of those other teams in a series. But not the best in the sense of most accomplished, the other teams have done it for longer, so we gotta keep adding to the resume to get there.Wouldn't even come close to beating the mid 90s Bulls or 2000s Lakers. Both those teams would smoke the current Warriors squad.

valade16
05-19-2019, 05:05 PM
Wouldn't even come close to beating the mid 90s Bulls or 2000s Lakers. Both those teams would smoke the current Warriors squad.

I cannot stress this enough, without the opportunity to play in the current 3pt era, both those teams would get run off the court if they were magically on the same court together. Without an opportunity to practice defense sets tailored to taking away the 3pt shot they would get destroyed.

goingfor28
05-19-2019, 05:21 PM
I cannot stress this enough, without the opportunity to play in the current 3pt era, both those teams would get run off the court if they were magically on the same court together. Without an opportunity to practice defense sets tailored to taking away the 3pt shot they would get destroyed.Shaq would average 60 and 20 without even trying.

valade16
05-19-2019, 05:26 PM
Shaq would average 60 and 20 without even trying.

And they'd still get blown out. Shaq's dominance still wouldn't make up for all the wide open 3's the Warriors would be getting. You have to understand, the Bulls and Lakers defenses back then were specifically designed to take away the paint and post-up. To them forcing the ball out to a 3-point shooter is good defense.

nastynice
05-19-2019, 05:31 PM
Wouldn't even come close to beating the mid 90s Bulls or 2000s Lakers. Both those teams would smoke the current Warriors squad.

Haha, for as long as 3 equals more than 2, these warriors would run back to back sweeps on those teams. Last year's rockets would beat both of them too.

That's why head to heads from different eras don't work. The proper way to compare across eras is to look at each team relative to the competition. If we look at it like this then there's a discussion to be had. If we look at it like this team vs that team, there's no discussion, warriors would easily, EASILY stomp em both out. 3 equals more than 2,its simple math.

GREATNESS ONE
05-19-2019, 05:32 PM
No, you can't take a team from one year to another year, add a max player to cap space that didn't exist in the past and call the new team the same as the old one. If they were playing this year all of the salaries would go up and they would have no cap space.

Lol ok. Itís clearly obvious teams have more to spend nowadays since the TV deals etc... but carry on

GREATNESS ONE
05-19-2019, 05:33 PM
I cannot stress this enough, without the opportunity to play in the current 3pt era, both those teams would get run off the court if they were magically on the same court together. Without an opportunity to practice defense sets tailored to taking away the 3pt shot they would get destroyed.

Highly disagree

nastynice
05-19-2019, 05:36 PM
Lol ok. Itís clearly obvious teams have more to spend nowadays since the TV deals etc... but carry on

True, but there's no way Jordans signing a contract for 10mil per year while his colleagues are signing them for 30+ mil

Although I just looked now and he did get paid that much his last 2 years in chi. No wonder the bulls blew it up.

GREATNESS ONE
05-19-2019, 06:26 PM
True, but there's no way Jordans signing a contract for 10mil per year while his colleagues are signing them for 30+ mil

Although I just looked now and he did get paid that much his last 2 years in chi. No wonder the bulls blew it up.

lol :nod: We're just talking ball anyways, noone actually knows what would have happened.

nastynice
05-19-2019, 06:34 PM
lol :nod: We're just talking ball anyways, noone actually knows what would have happened.

Bro I'm just tripping that jordan had a 33 mil contract at a time when the cap was at 50. That's like someone making 80 mill today, lmao

I still remember how obscene Shaqs 100 million dollar contract was back then. Times definitely changed

Scoots
05-19-2019, 06:47 PM
Lol ok. Itís clearly obvious teams have more to spend nowadays since the TV deals etc... but carry on

Yes, but the cap is the cap and it's the same for all the teams and the star players expect more money. If you had to assemble that Lakers team today it would cost a lot more than it did then to get the exact same players.

Scoots
05-19-2019, 06:48 PM
True, but there's no way Jordans signing a contract for 10mil per year while his colleagues are signing them for 30+ mil

Although I just looked now and he did get paid that much his last 2 years in chi. No wonder the bulls blew it up.

No max contract. That max contract option really changed the game.

Scoots
05-19-2019, 06:53 PM
Bro I'm just tripping that jordan had a 33 mil contract at a time when the cap was at 50. That's like someone making 80 mill today, lmao

I still remember how obscene Shaqs 100 million dollar contract was back then. Times definitely changed

What I remember from that contract was that the Bulls PR talked about how the rest of the teams should pay part of MJs salary because he made so much money for them, and it was absolutely true. NBA attendance went up like 20% overall when Jordan came back. We was still underpaid at $33M.

That contract started the crazy numbers that lead to the max contract being added to the CBA which is why superstars today are underpaid..

valade16
05-19-2019, 07:34 PM
Highly disagree

I figured :)

If the 00's Lakers or the 90's Bulls had time (or magically knew) defensive sets of today's NBA it'd be a competition. Against the KD-less Dubs, the 00's Lakers probably win just because all of their players (besides Shaq) were 3 point shooters and defenders. But if the Dubs get KD? There's just too much firepower.

SiteWolf
05-19-2019, 08:04 PM
I'll never understand the need to come up with GOATs, best teams, etc....there's just far too many differences in what goes into it....the game is different now, less physical....the officiating is different, the money is different....even talking about a team, there's differences in players from one year to the next even if it's primarily the role players...

Scoots
05-19-2019, 08:26 PM
I'll never understand the need to come up with GOATs, best teams, etc....there's just far too many differences in what goes into it....the game is different now, less physical....the officiating is different, the money is different....even talking about a team, there's differences in players from one year to the next even if it's primarily the role players...

I don't get it either so I just don't join the game.

Nunuu
05-19-2019, 11:05 PM
The mid-range game is pretty much gone now, and most of today's players are floppers and pansies. It's literally chuck up 3s or drive the lane and create contact to shoot FT's. Do the dubs have to play the all time great teams as the rules were back then?

Scoots
05-20-2019, 12:38 AM
The mid-range game is pretty much gone now, and most of today's players are floppers and pansies. It's literally chuck up 3s or drive the lane and create contact to shoot FT's. Do the dubs have to play the all time great teams as the rules were back then?

You don't watch the NBA then.

TrueFan420
05-20-2019, 10:33 AM
My point still remains, they could have easily fit another max slot player...
What happens to that cap space when you canít get away with paying Kobe 10 million a season or Shaq 19. You think he and Shaq are playing out of the goodness of their hearts? Those contracts were signed under different circumstances. Thatís why you canít say there would be an extra 50 million. Those players would have all negotiated different deals for themselves if there was more cap space available.

Heediot
05-20-2019, 10:44 AM
GS does have an edge just due to the evolution of the game if they played LAL and Chi heads up. But give those teams one off-season and half a year to adjust, I think you'll see them launch more three's and defend the 3 shot better.

Chi has the pieces to defend the 3 ball with Jordan, Pippen, Rodman, Harper. They were all savvy and seasoned defenders that could switch. They could throw a versatile lineup too if you put Kukoc at the 4 and Rodman at the 5, just like GS death lineup. They had three point specialists for spacing as well in Kerr, Buechlerr.

These old school teams still have a chance against GS even if they were thrown to the wolves with no knowledge of todays game. Memphis took Gs to 6 with grit n grind, and OKC with KD should have beaten them before KD joined. Neither of those teams were 3 point bombers out side of 1-2 players. Jordan and Shaq will get theirs, but Shaq might be exposed defensively, but put the right defenders around him and Kobe and they'll still challenge. KD and Russ almost did it.

I think people are too enamored with 3 point shooting, but more then one way to skin a cat. In a half court slug fest guys like MJ, Shaq and Kobe are more of a headache vs. anyone on GS. Pop doesn't have the talent in SA ut he is finding ways to win without dependency on the 3 ball. I am sure those Bulls and Lakers teams can muster up a recipe.

Nunuu
05-20-2019, 11:24 AM
You don't watch the NBA then.

So the last bucks and raptors game they didn't shoot 89 3s combined?

crewfan13
05-20-2019, 01:05 PM
GS does have an edge just due to the evolution of the game if they played LAL and Chi heads up. But give those teams one off-season and half a year to adjust, I think you'll see them launch more three's and defend the 3 shot better.

Chi has the pieces to defend the 3 ball with Jordan, Pippen, Rodman, Harper. They were all savvy and seasoned defenders that could switch. They could throw a versatile lineup too if you put Kukoc at the 4 and Rodman at the 5, just like GS death lineup. They had three point specialists for spacing as well in Kerr, Buechlerr.

These old school teams still have a chance against GS even if they were thrown to the wolves with no knowledge of todays game. Memphis took Gs to 6 with grit n grind, and OKC with KD should have beaten them before KD joined. Neither of those teams were 3 point bombers out side of 1-2 players. Jordan and Shaq will get theirs, but Shaq might be exposed defensively, but put the right defenders around him and Kobe and they'll still challenge. KD and Russ almost did it.

I think people are too enamored with 3 point shooting, but more then one way to skin a cat. In a half court slug fest guys like MJ, Shaq and Kobe are more of a headache vs. anyone on GS. Pop doesn't have the talent in SA ut he is finding ways to win without dependency on the 3 ball. I am sure those Bulls and Lakers teams can muster up a recipe.

I know analytics gets a bad name and guys like Chris webber like to use it as an umbrella to cry about everything he doesn't like. But ballislife did an analysis of his crazy shooting percentages in the 91/92 playoffs. Not sure why they chose that year, but I have to assume it was one of his better percentage seasons. In the playoffs Jordan shot 48% from midrange.

To make the math work, the warriors can shot 33% from 3 and come out ahead of Jordan's mid range game. And that's the point of the math. It's not that all mid range shots are bad. It's that you need to shoot the mid range J at a percentage that's almost impossibly high to make it better than an average 3pt shot.

And I'm sure I'll come off as a jordan hater, but one of the things that's rarely brought up is the caliber wing defender Jordan faced. And to Jordan's credit, stopping him is a big part of the reason why there's so many good wing defenders these days. But GS can throw iggy, Durant, klay and even dray at him to make his life tougher than most the guys he faced. And a few teams had a guy who could defend like that crew, but no team in Jordan's era could throw that many good defenders at him to stay fresh and make his life tough, while also making him defend in the other end.

Heediot
05-20-2019, 01:26 PM
I know analytics gets a bad name and guys like Chris webber like to use it as an umbrella to cry about everything he doesn't like. But ballislife did an analysis of his crazy shooting percentages in the 91/92 playoffs. Not sure why they chose that year, but I have to assume it was one of his better percentage seasons. In the playoffs Jordan shot 48% from midrange.

To make the math work, the warriors can shot 33% from 3 and come out ahead of Jordan's mid range game. And that's the point of the math. It's not that all mid range shots are bad. It's that you need to shoot the mid range J at a percentage that's almost impossibly high to make it better than an average 3pt shot.

And I'm sure I'll come off as a jordan hater, but one of the things that's rarely brought up is the caliber wing defender Jordan faced. And to Jordan's credit, stopping him is a big part of the reason why there's so many good wing defenders these days. But GS can throw iggy, Durant, klay and even dray at him to make his life tougher than most the guys he faced. And a few teams had a guy who could defend like that crew, but no team in Jordan's era could throw that many good defenders at him to stay fresh and make his life tough, while also making him defend in the other end.

Knicks and Pistons had defenders.

Bad Boy pistons had Dumars and Rodman and some goons in the interior. Knicks had Starks, Mason and other pesky defenders like Doc. Mason was a versatile defender like Green, Oakley was a hard nose enforcer and Ewing a rim protector.

Rules allowed for more physical defense and lanes were less open, especially in the playoffs where if you'd drive at will all day, eventually teams will start clobbering and hacking so you needed more fortitude and risk assessment to drive to the hole. A hard foul back then will get you a flagrant or even dq nowadays. So there were other impediments he had to deal with.

Like I said give them an offseason to learn and some playing time together and they'd adjust to the modern game by the time the playoffs role around. I don;t know if it counts but I'm sure guys like Markieff Morris and Wesley Matthews and other shooter 3-d guys would line up to play with MJ and Shaq during buyout season if they needed to add ore shooting as they adapt. Even as is, those teams had shooters to play off of Shaq, Kobe and MJ and with time to adapt they'd launch more treys.

If Harden and Cp3 can give the Warriors a run, and KD and RWB, Lebron & Kyrie, all gave GS a run for their money, I don;t see how a team built around MJ, Pip and Worm, or Shaq and Kobe wouldn't do the same.

I also believe you those guys can play around the strengths of their studs like MJ, Shaq and Kobe but also adapt to the modern game with time.

Sports is about defense and making timely plays in clutch situations for the most part. The Bulls have that pat down. Launching treys is great but I firmly believe there is more then one way to skin a cat and if you play to the strengths of your players you have a chance, just mix some more 3's if you have to and adapt to the modern game like Pop does.

Hawkeye15
05-20-2019, 02:04 PM
I figured :)

If the 00's Lakers or the 90's Bulls had time (or magically knew) defensive sets of today's NBA it'd be a competition. Against the KD-less Dubs, the 00's Lakers probably win just because all of their players (besides Shaq) were 3 point shooters and defenders. But if the Dubs get KD? There's just too much firepower.

I agree. To counter that, if we allowed hand checking, and got strict on not allowing "zone", I think the 00' Lakers, or the 96' Bulls team, would be fine. It all depends on rules. Like Shaq would decimate today offensively, but he would be an even bigger liability on defense today. Teams from back then would be buried before they could even figure out why the Dubs were actively passing up driving lanes to launch 3's, if they didn't have time to adjust, as you said.

To the point of this thread, I think GS has had the most talent of any team ever, but the success of MJ's Bulls is nearly impossible to catch.

Heediot
05-20-2019, 02:12 PM
GS should be favorites based on talent alone.

I think Bulls match up well, and can duplicate what the Rox did defensively last year in the playoffs to make things tough for GS. Bulls also have the ultimate closer and experience, which Rox lacked especially the closer part. Bulls need to mix and up their 3 point attempts and play more drive and kick with MJ and Pip to make GS respect more aspects. If given an off-season to adapt and with how savvy and high iq and experienced that team it's not impossible for them to adapt to the modern game quicker then most teams.

Jordan as he aged kept adapting his game. Got stronger to take ore punishment from his drives, added a post game to help him age well and take less punishment, but also open the floor for his shooters.

Also the 3 point launch fest bit them (hou) in the *** in game 7 where they missed like 20 straight or something like that iirc.

nastynice
05-20-2019, 03:23 PM
I think people are too enamored with 3 point shooting, but more then one way to skin a cat. In a half court slug fest guys like MJ, Shaq and Kobe are more of a headache vs. anyone on GS.

KD is just as much a half court headache than anyone. Or at least he's getting there..

nastynice
05-20-2019, 03:26 PM
To the point of this thread, I think GS has had the most talent of any team ever, but the success of MJ's Bulls is nearly impossible to catch.

Nice take

Heediot
05-20-2019, 03:53 PM
KD is just as much a half court headache than anyone. Or at least he's getting there..

Given the talent and spacing on his team for sure, those dynamics make him dangerous. But i don't think he's even as good as Bron or KL, of he were to carry the same load while attracting the same attention. I think he could be on par with Kobe, but Kobe's numbers didn't dip much from regular season to playoffs with a big load/attention.

nastynice
05-20-2019, 04:26 PM
Given the talent and spacing on his team for sure, those dynamics make him dangerous. But i don't think he's even as good as Bron or KL, of he were to carry the same load while attracting the same attention. I think he could be on par with Kobe, but Kobe's numbers didn't dip much from regular season to playoffs with a big load/attention.

Well he's on the warriors so we can't just take the talent and spacing out of the equation when comparing warriors to other teams

Scoots
05-20-2019, 05:01 PM
So the last bucks and raptors game they didn't shoot 89 3s combined?

That's 2 teams in a 30 team league.

The Warriors are middle of the league in 3 point shot attempts and are averaging less than 30 a game in the playoffs. The Spurs averaged less than 20. Both teams shoot regularly from mid-range.

Nunuu
05-20-2019, 05:32 PM
That's 2 teams in a 30 team league.

The Warriors are middle of the league in 3 point shot attempts and are averaging less than 30 a game in the playoffs. The Spurs averaged less than 20. Both teams shoot regularly from mid-range.

The 96 bulls took 1349 3 point shots, the warriors this year took 2824, the game is not the same.

Scoots
05-20-2019, 11:10 PM
The 96 bulls took 1349 3 point shots, the warriors this year took 2824, the game is not the same.

Yes, it turns out that 23 years has changed the game. Did you know the number of 3s shot in the NBA went up by 54% in 1994? Did you know that 23 years before that the NBA team that won the NBA title, the New York Knicks, actually took 0 3 point shots? Seems the 1990s broke the NBA!

You said:


The mid-range game is pretty much gone now, and most of today's players are floppers and pansies. It's literally chuck up 3s or drive the lane and create contact to shoot FT's.

The mid-range game is not nearly gone, particularly when there are playoff teams where that is the strongest part of their game. There were a lot of floppers and players creating contact to shoot FTs in 1996 too, and pansies then too, just like there are players who resist flopping and complaining, and players who don't seek contact on a regular basis in todays game.

Yes, there are some teams that have gone nuts with the 3 and players who base their game around FT hunting, but it's not the only way the game is played now and to say it is is disingenuous at best.

rocket
05-20-2019, 11:11 PM
Simple answer: yes

nastynice
05-20-2019, 11:58 PM
5 straight finals appearances

5 straight mutha****in finals :nod:

We may be witnessing the greatest dynasty in nba history..

crewfan13
05-21-2019, 10:04 AM
Yes, it turns out that 23 years has changed the game. Did you know the number of 3s shot in the NBA went up by 54% in 1994? Did you know that 23 years before that the NBA team that won the NBA title, the New York Knicks, actually took 0 3 point shots? Seems the 1990s broke the NBA!

You said:



The mid-range game is not nearly gone, particularly when there are playoff teams where that is the strongest part of their game. There were a lot of floppers and players creating contact to shoot FTs in 1996 too, and pansies then too, just like there are players who resist flopping and complaining, and players who don't seek contact on a regular basis in todays game.

Yes, there are some teams that have gone nuts with the 3 and players who base their game around FT hunting, but it's not the only way the game is played now and to say it is is disingenuous at best.

Assuming the data from the site flowing data is correct (and it's a website about data and data visualizations so I have no reason not to), it is a dying shot and that's not really super disputed. In the 2003-2004 season, a little over 35% of the shots in the entire nba were mid range shots. As of january, when they published the article, it was a little over 15%. As of the time of the article, the spurs were taking the most mid range shots at 28% of their shots, which is still comfortably below the average from 2003-2004.

Nunuu
05-21-2019, 10:14 AM
5 straight finals appearances

5 straight mutha****in finals :nod:

We may be witnessing the greatest dynasty in nba history..

Maybe if it was 5 straight wins, but they lost to Bron, Kyrie, and a bunch of scrubs.

Scoots
05-21-2019, 10:28 AM
Assuming the data from the site flowing data is correct (and it's a website about data and data visualizations so I have no reason not to), it is a dying shot and that's not really super disputed. In the 2003-2004 season, a little over 35% of the shots in the entire nba were mid range shots. As of january, when they published the article, it was a little over 15%. As of the time of the article, the spurs were taking the most mid range shots at 28% of their shots, which is still comfortably below the average from 2003-2004.

I understand and acknowledge the trend, but it's not as extreme as that one game made it look. Sure the Rockets seem to put up 40 to 50 3s a game, but the Spurs have games where they put up less than 20. There is still variety in the NBA, and some players still have successful games based around the mid-range shot.

I do think some adjustments need to be made to try to stop the trend from continuing. I'd start with getting rid of the short corner 3, and move the line back 6 inches. That would make enough of a difference to stop the trend and reverse it a little. I'd also add a 4th ref and clarify the flopping/offensive contact rules/officiating so it's more like the playoffs than the regular season version.

Nunuu
05-21-2019, 10:34 AM
I understand and acknowledge the trend, but it's not as extreme as that one game made it look. Sure the Rockets seem to put up 40 to 50 3s a game, but the Spurs have games where they put up less than 20. There is still variety in the NBA, and some players still have successful games based around the mid-range shot.

I do think some adjustments need to be made to try to stop the trend from continuing. I'd start with getting rid of the short corner 3, and move the line back 6 inches. That would make enough of a difference to stop the trend and reverse it a little. I'd also add a 4th ref and clarify the flopping/offensive contact rules/officiating so it's more like the playoffs than the regular season version.

It is that extreme you are in denial bro, Jordan dominated with his mid-range game after his athleticism started fading. Everything now is making sure all 5 guys on the floor can shoot 3's.

Scoots
05-21-2019, 10:50 AM
It is that extreme you are in denial bro, Jordan dominated with his mid-range game after his athleticism started fading. Everything now is making sure all 5 guys on the floor can shoot 3's.

Right, like Giannis' 25%? Or Draymond's 28%? You are right it's "everything" to make sure everyone can shoot 3's. ;) The Warriors are going to their 5th straight finals and have 5 regular players who have attempted less than 10 3s for the season and only 3 who average more than one made 3 a game.

Yes there are more 3s and less mid-range than there used to be, but it's not as extreme as you make it sound. That's all.

Hawkeye15
05-21-2019, 10:57 AM
This Warriors team wouldn't exist in makeup 20 years ago, and MJ would be a good 3 point shooter today if raised in the modern game. Why the argument of style?

Nunuu
05-21-2019, 10:58 AM
Right, like Giannis' 25%? Or Draymond's 28%? You are right it's "everything" to make sure everyone can shoot 3's. ;) The Warriors are going to their 5th straight finals and have 5 regular players who have attempted less than 10 3s for the season and only 3 who average more than one made 3 a game.

Yes there are more 3s and less mid-range than there used to be, but it's not as extreme as you make it sound. That's all.

I count 4, Curry, Thompson, Durant, and Cook.

And only 4 who attempted less than 10 during the season, Livingston, Bell, Jones, Bogut

Out of your 17, 8 attempted more than 100 3s, Cousins shot 95 and only played 30 games.

The dubs aren't the only team doing it, the rockets shot 3721 this season.

Hawkeye15
05-21-2019, 11:03 AM
Right, like Giannis' 25%? Or Draymond's 28%? You are right it's "everything" to make sure everyone can shoot 3's. ;) The Warriors are going to their 5th straight finals and have 5 regular players who have attempted less than 10 3s for the season and only 3 who average more than one made 3 a game.

Yes there are more 3s and less mid-range than there used to be, but it's not as extreme as you make it sound. That's all.

how about if we isolate the top teams? What does their shot chart look like?

Nunuu
05-21-2019, 11:14 AM
This Warriors team wouldn't exist in makeup 20 years ago, and MJ would be a good 3 point shooter today if raised in the modern game. Why the argument of style?

Just something to talk about tbh, its boring lol

Hawkeye15
05-21-2019, 11:26 AM
Just something to talk about tbh, its boring lol

good point. Well then it depends on what rules are being used.

Nunuu
05-21-2019, 11:27 AM
good point. Well then it depends on what rules are being used.

Yea thats what I asked in my initial post that started the argument.

Scoots
05-21-2019, 11:43 AM
I count 4, Curry, Thompson, Durant, and Cook.

And only 4 who attempted less than 10 during the season, Livingston, Bell, Jones, Bogut

Out of your 17, 8 attempted more than 100 3s, Cousins shot 95 and only played 30 games.

The dubs aren't the only team doing it, the rockets shot 3721 this season.

The point is that it's not all one way like you imply. The Rockets and Bucks were the top 2 teams in attempts (and the Rockets were way out in front on attempts), the issue you need to "solve" is that all but one team in the NBA (Suns) shot above 33% from 3 which means it's still good math. That said there are a lot of players who still make a lot of use of the mid-range. But yes, it turns out that space is useful and 3s are worth 50% more than 2s. There will be defensive adjustments, officiating adjustments, and possibly rules changes to adjust it down.

valade16
05-21-2019, 01:29 PM
I understand and acknowledge the trend, but it's not as extreme as that one game made it look. Sure the Rockets seem to put up 40 to 50 3s a game, but the Spurs have games where they put up less than 20. There is still variety in the NBA, and some players still have successful games based around the mid-range shot.

I do think some adjustments need to be made to try to stop the trend from continuing. I'd start with getting rid of the short corner 3, and move the line back 6 inches. That would make enough of a difference to stop the trend and reverse it a little. I'd also add a 4th ref and clarify the flopping/offensive contact rules/officiating so it's more like the playoffs than the regular season version.

The difference is extreme. For instance, the team you keep harping on, the Spurs, was dead last in the NBA at 3-pt shots at 25 per game. In 1998, the last MJ title, the most prolific 3pt shooting team in the entire NBA took 20 3-pt shots. The least (the Jazz, who went to the Finals that year) took 8 per game.


Think about that, the Finals team the Bulls faced in 97 and 98 took 8 and 11 3's per game. Going from that to even an average team today shooting 30 3-pointers would be a massive adjustment.

Hawkeye15
05-21-2019, 01:41 PM
The difference is extreme. For instance, the team you keep harping on, the Spurs, was dead last in the NBA at 3-pt shots at 25 per game. In 1998, the last MJ title, the most prolific 3pt shooting team in the entire NBA took 20 3-pt shots. The least (the Jazz, who went to the Finals that year) took 8 per game.


Think about that, the Finals team the Bulls faced in 97 and 98 took 8 and 11 3's per game. Going from that to even an average team today shooting 30 3-pointers would be a massive adjustment.

yep. A large share of the defensive bigs back then would be liabilities today. And vice versa (imagine sending Kris Middleton out there to defend Karl Malone haha). It's why, as someone brought up already, in today's rules, the Bulls from back then would need time to learn, and honestly, the roster makeup would be different. Remember the Laker 3 peat? The west teams would literally sign anything breathing above 6"10" just to have extra fouls to use against Shaq. That would never happen today. And if you magically sent the Dubs back to 1994, Curry would be manhandled into becoming Mark Price (good but cmon), and they would have zero answer to defend the paint. None.

Giannis94
05-21-2019, 01:43 PM
Maybe if it was 5 straight wins, but they lost to Bron, Kyrie, and a bunch of scrubs.

Kyrie is a scrub himself

Saddletramp
05-21-2019, 02:22 PM
Is Scoots really saying that the three point shot isnít a problem yet is advocating for drastic changes like eliminating the corner three and pushing the three point line back?

nastynice
05-21-2019, 04:45 PM
lol, lil curry from Davidson completely changed the game..

Even jordan didn't change it, nah mean :cool:

Hawkeye15
05-21-2019, 04:51 PM
lol, lil curry from Davidson completely changed the game..

Even jordan didn't change it, nah mean :cool:

lil curry came along at the right time, for sure.

nastynice
05-21-2019, 05:05 PM
lil curry came along at the right time, for sure.

Lol curry IS the time.

Scoots
05-21-2019, 05:05 PM
lil curry came along at the right time, for sure.

And got lucky with an ownership change, 2 GMs who were big fans and had faith in him, good talent evaluators and GM to build the team around him that perfectly fit his game, ownership changing coaches at the right time and managing to get Kerr back from NY who turned out to be a perfect coach, Kerr managing to convince the best assistant coach in the NBA and one of the best team presidents in the NBA to move to the Warriors to do the same jobs they did for their previous teams, then the NFLPA gifted him with KD.

That said, he worked his *** off and is kind of the perfect player for this team.

Hawkeye15
05-21-2019, 05:18 PM
And got lucky with an ownership change, 2 GMs who were big fans and had faith in him, good talent evaluators and GM to build the team around him that perfectly fit his game, ownership changing coaches at the right time and managing to get Kerr back from NY who turned out to be a perfect coach, Kerr managing to convince the best assistant coach in the NBA and one of the best team presidents in the NBA to move to the Warriors to do the same jobs they did for their previous teams, then the NFLPA gifted him with KD.

That said, he worked his *** off and is kind of the perfect player for this team.

absolutely man. What I mean is, his build, and ability to handle contact (or lack of), is exposed in prior years. But, that doesn't mean we shouldn't measure him against the time he is playing only, it's all that matters.

ewing
05-21-2019, 09:37 PM
lol, lil curry from Davidson completely changed the game..

Even jordan didn't change it, nah mean :cool:

Are you mental? Half the league starting playing football bc it was the only way to hold Jordan under 50 then the league changed all the rules. I think he changed the game a little


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ewing
05-21-2019, 09:48 PM
lil curry came along at the right time, for sure.

Exactly if anyone deserves credit for ushering the 3 point era itís Mike Dantoni. Curry might have excellerated it but he didnít create or start it


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COOLbeans
05-21-2019, 10:24 PM
^^ steadily trying to discount Curry. Itís becoming laughable

Nunuu
05-21-2019, 10:33 PM
^^ steadily trying to discount Curry. Itís becoming laughable

More like people trying to discount MJ, Curry is great in this time, if he were back in the 90s not so much.

nastynice
05-21-2019, 10:34 PM
Exactly if anyone deserves credit for ushering the 3 point era itís Mike Dantoni. Curry might have excellerated it but he didnít create or start it


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Warriors nuggets series 2013 is when the 3 point era officially began. Dantoni was on neither of those teams.

nastynice
05-21-2019, 10:36 PM
More like people trying to discount MJ, Curry is great in this time, if he were back in the 90s not so much.

If curry played back in the 90's he would've rendered Shaq, one of the greatest nba players ever, near useless.

If curry played in the 90's I think he would've been even better, because now other players can all shoot too. Curry woulda been that much further ahead of everyone with his range

Nunuu
05-21-2019, 10:41 PM
If curry played back in the 90's he would've rendered Shaq, one of the greatest nba players ever, near useless.

If curry played in the 90's I think he would've been even better, because now other players can all shoot too. Curry woulda been that much further ahead of everyone with his range

Like Reggie miller did huh?

nastynice
05-21-2019, 10:57 PM
Like Reggie miller did huh?

lol, Miller!

ewing
05-21-2019, 11:22 PM
^^ steadily trying to discount Curry. Itís becoming laughable

Heís the greatest shooter of all time and you act like he done more at this point of his career then he has.


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goingfor28
05-21-2019, 11:25 PM
If curry played back in the 90's he would've rendered Shaq, one of the greatest nba players ever, near useless.

If curry played in the 90's I think he would've been even better, because now other players can all shoot too. Curry woulda been that much further ahead of everyone with his rangeLol no. Curry would've been legitimately knocked on his *** every time he shot. Not soft touch flop "knocked down."

ewing
05-21-2019, 11:26 PM
Warriors nuggets series 2013 is when the 3 point era officially began. Dantoni was on neither of those teams.


That series was almost as historic as Al Hartfordís playoff fg% a couple years back


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ewing
05-21-2019, 11:37 PM
If curry played back in the 90's he would've rendered Shaq, one of the greatest nba players ever, near useless.

If curry played in the 90's I think he would've been even better, because now other players can all shoot too. Curry woulda been that much further ahead of everyone with his range

Great shooters had range back then. Reggie, Chuck Person, Dennis Scott could all shoot from hella deep. None of them could do it off the dribble like Curry. Thatís what was really really different about him. Not only was he one of if not the purest shooter he could work a pull up game from crazy range.
He was the first guy to really bring that to the game.
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Scoots
05-22-2019, 12:44 AM
Great shooters had range back then. Reggie, Chuck Person, Dennis Scott could all shoot from hella deep. None of them could do it off the dribble like Curry. Thatís what was really really different about him. Not only was he one of if not the purest shooter he could work a pull up game from crazy range.
He was the first guy to really bring that to the game.
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And shooting a LOT more 3s and doing it at a historically high %

ewing
05-22-2019, 01:40 AM
And shooting a LOT more 3s and doing it at a historically high %

He the greatest shooter ever. I donít think the most unique shooting skill he brings is that he can shoot from far its how good he is shooting from far off the bounce


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nastynice
05-22-2019, 02:11 AM
That series was almost as historic as Al Hartfordís playoff fg% a couple years back


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lol! Damn you

nastynice
05-22-2019, 02:13 AM
Great shooters had range back then. Reggie, Chuck Person, Dennis Scott could all shoot from hella deep. None of them could do it off the dribble like Curry. Thatís what was really really different about him. Not only was he one of if not the purest shooter he could work a pull up game from crazy range.
He was the first guy to really bring that to the game.
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You have to legitimately pick curry up from 40 ft. Also his off the ball offense is elite, arguably just as far beyond 2nd as he is as a shooter. This, combined with the ability to shoot off the dribble means he can apply a constant pressure on the defense to the likes we've never seen before, AND still allow an elite ball dominant player alongside of him without having to sacrifice any of their game.

I don't really know if he'd actually render Shaq useless, probably not, I'm just trying to make my point in dramatic fashion

Scoots
05-22-2019, 11:17 AM
He the greatest shooter ever. I donít think the most unique shooting skill he brings is that he can shoot from far its how good he is shooting from far off the bounce

He was also the first person ever to shoot at high volume with high accuracy. His ability to get an open 3 while covered and hit it at a high % is also special for sure. But it was a game changer more in that it let him take so many 3s overall.

Scoots
05-22-2019, 11:35 AM
I heard a TV talking head last night say Draymond was possibly the greatest short roll player in NBA history. It's what is done in sports ... the current "best" thing is always the best ever.

MarkieMark48
05-22-2019, 01:25 PM
This Warriors team wouldn't exist in makeup 20 years ago, and MJ would be a good 3 point shooter today if raised in the modern game. Why the argument of style?

THIS!!!!

I never understood the point of view of the whole "well if this player played against the bad boy pistons, he wouldn't last a quarter because he would be crying after all the punishment" Well if you could magically teleport them from right now to back then maybe, but if they grew up playing that style of ball, they would adapt and more than likely be just as good. Do people seriously think the all-time great NBA players wouldn't be great regardless of the eras they would play in? Do people really think MJ wouldnt work on his 3-point shot if he were playing today?

Vallejo Raiders
05-22-2019, 01:41 PM
Imagine Shaq switched out on Curry on the pick and roll

nastynice
05-22-2019, 03:46 PM
Imagine Shaq switched out on Curry on the pick and roll

lol, diesel!!

Scoots
05-22-2019, 04:47 PM
Imagine Shaq switched out on Curry on the pick and roll

That exercise can do a good job to illustrate the power of the new system of play. Shaq switched onto Curry 30 ft from the basket is going to get destroyed so his team has to come help, but they have to cover 15 feet or so to get there. Curry switched on to Shaq in the post is going to get destroyed (but maybe not as bad just because the rules don't allow Shaq to just throw players out of the way ... he got called for it a lot even if not as much as it wasn't called) but the help is just 2 steps away. Add in the Curry's shots are worth 50% more and Shaq is at more of a disadvantage. Also Curry hits a HUGE amount more of his FTs. Shaq's career TS% .586, Curry's .624. Shaq's usage is higher but their per game scoring is almost the same.

Despite them and their play eras being so wildly different it's actually an interesting comparison and closer in a lot of ways than I would have expected.

KobeOwnSU
05-22-2019, 08:14 PM
I think they are. You just canít deny their sustainability over the past five years.


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Vee-Rex
05-22-2019, 11:29 PM
It's hard to compare teams that played under very different rulesets and NBA-wide tactical landscapes.

The healthy lineup of Cousins, Green, Durant, Thompson and Curry is possibly the most talented team ever assembled: five all-stars, one of them being the best player in the NBA and another of them being the best shooter in the history of the league.

I remember some talking head saying he thought Golden State with Durant was 50/50 against Milwaukee and significant underdogs without Durant. Poppycock. GS is 60/40 without Durant against Milwaukee and 95/5 with Durant.

Accomplishments wise, they obviously have yet to catch up with Jordan's Bulls.

:clap:

Don't mind all the dick slapping/fighting going around in here. Just be rational and you'll stand out.

Hawkeye15
05-22-2019, 11:37 PM
Imagine Shaq switched out on Curry on the pick and roll

Imagine any big or sets of bigs today trying to stop Shaq from 10 dunks a night

Hawkeye15
05-22-2019, 11:39 PM
That exercise can do a good job to illustrate the power of the new system of play. Shaq switched onto Curry 30 ft from the basket is going to get destroyed so his team has to come help, but they have to cover 15 feet or so to get there. Curry switched on to Shaq in the post is going to get destroyed (but maybe not as bad just because the rules don't allow Shaq to just throw players out of the way ... he got called for it a lot even if not as much as it wasn't called) but the help is just 2 steps away. Add in the Curry's shots are worth 50% more and Shaq is at more of a disadvantage. Also Curry hits a HUGE amount more of his FTs. Shaq's career TS% .586, Curry's .624. Shaq's usage is higher but their per game scoring is almost the same.

Despite them and their play eras being so wildly different it's actually an interesting comparison and closer in a lot of ways than I would have expected.

Cept Shaq dominates any era, anytime. Curry doesn't potentially. I think physicality bothers him, but Shaq bends the league in any era

nastynice
05-22-2019, 11:52 PM
The healthy lineup of Cousins, Green, Durant, Thompson and Curry is possibly the most talented team ever assembled: five all-stars, one of them being the best player in the NBA and another of them being the best shooter in the history of the league.
.

Not possibly. It is.

Its such a shame thay cousins went down and we couldn't see this squad in full flight. I was looking forward to that all season

nastynice
05-22-2019, 11:56 PM
Imagine any big or sets of bigs today trying to stop Shaq from 10 dunks a night

It would be like back then. Bogut/javale Mcgee type players have size.

They'll still get smoked, don't get me wrong, but I don't see it being anything more now than back then. Bigs are still bigs. Just more skilled now.

nastynice
05-22-2019, 11:56 PM
Cept Shaq dominates any era, anytime. Curry doesn't potentially. I think physicality bothers him, but Shaq bends the league in any era

You think Shaq dominates today?

I don't think he even starts today.

Saddletramp
05-23-2019, 01:44 AM
You think Shaq dominates today?

I don't think he even starts today.

Another idiot sentence brought to us by the Captain of Idiot Sentences.

nastynice
05-23-2019, 03:18 AM
Another idiot sentence brought to us by the Captain of Idiot Setences.

lol, that's all you got?

Saddletramp
05-23-2019, 05:35 AM
lol, that's all you got?

You just said that you think Shaq might not start if he played in the current NBA. That might be the dumbest thing youíve ever said and thatís saying something. But yeah, I guess thatís all I got.

nastynice
05-23-2019, 05:59 AM
You just said that you think Shaq might not start if he played in the current NBA. That might be the dumbest thing youíve ever said and thatís saying something. But yeah, I guess thatís all I got.

Ok, then explain to me how can Shaq play defense against your Houston rockets and not give harden the same exact looks curry and Klay were getting in game 1 vs the Blazers.

What does harden shoot on uncontested 3's? 60 percent? So tell me how Shaq can play defense against your rockets and Harden not take uncontested 3's at will, and I mean literally AT WILL, hitting at 60% clip, meaning roughly 1.7 points per possession.

How can Shaquille O'Neal play defense against the rockets and not give up 1.7 pts per possession, at what 90 possessions a game? Meaning not give up 150 pts against the rockets in a game.

And yes I realize I did the math across 48 minutes, but you have to realize that harden would play 48 minutes. Because that play is the most basic screen in basketball amd that play against Shaq would require near zero effort.

So explain to me, when capella steps out to the 3 and Harden curls around him picking off his defender, where is Shaq standing? Is he in hardens face to contest the 3?

Ok, so now we have an uncontested layup, what does harden shoot on uncontested layups? 95%? 98? Let's say 1.95 pts per possession.

Ok so a wing defender slides in to contest, so harden passes to a wide open ariza, tucker, green, Gordon, Paul, what do they shoot combined on uncontested 3's? 43%? 48%? Let's say 1.4 pts per possession.

I guess the last 2 scenarios wouldn't go 48 minutes tho, since energy actually WILL be exerted.

And they say Morey know them stats... ;)

ewing
05-23-2019, 06:52 AM
Ok, then explain to me how can Shaq play defense against your Houston rockets and not give harden the same exact looks curry and Klay were getting in game 1 vs the Blazers.

What does harden shoot on uncontested 3's? 60 percent? So tell me how Shaq can play defense against your rockets and Harden not take uncontested 3's at will, and I mean literally AT WILL, hitting at 60% clip, meaning roughly 1.7 points per possession.

How can Shaquille O'Neal play defense against the rockets and not give up 1.7 pts per possession, at what 90 possessions a game? Meaning not give up 150 pts against the rockets in a game.

And yes I realize I did the math across 48 minutes, but you have to realize that harden would play 48 minutes. Because that play is the most basic screen in basketball amd that play against Shaq would require near zero effort.

So explain to me, when capella steps out to the 3 and Harden curls around him picking off his defender, where is Shaq standing? Is he in hardens face to contest the 3?

Ok, so now we have an uncontested layup, what does harden shoot on uncontested layups? 95%? 98? Let's say 1.95 pts per possession.

Ok so a wing defender slides in to contest, so harden passes to a wide open ariza, tucker, green, Gordon, Paul, what do they shoot combined on uncontested 3's? 43%? 48%? Let's say 1.4 pts per possession.

I guess the last 2 scenarios wouldn't go 48 minutes tho, since energy actually WILL be exerted.

And they say Morey know them stats... ;)

The refs call illegal screens, they let you hand check, and you donít switch or sit Shaq in the paint. You trap and push Harden backwards. Harden finishes with 23 turnovers. All Those TOs turn into fast break dunks for Kobe. 46 to 0. Simple math bro


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Heediot
05-23-2019, 07:16 AM
How worse can shaq be vs. a DMC, y'all forget he was still mobile for his size. Sure he wouldn't be ideal, but not the end of the world with having Shaq in there on defense. You think Marc Gasol and Older Duncan are the fastest a foot ? Not saying in has there defensive awareness, but I am sure he has better awareness vs. people give him credit for.

His presence down low will open up the 3 point shot just as much as any kick and drive beast in this era. His physicality is unmatched in nba history, with 5's being smaller in size on average due to wanting guys to switch and position-less ball, he'll probably need more then a double team most of the time, this will free up the shooters and Kobe can attack more 1 on 1's. If Kobe attacks the paint and drops off a pass for Shaq who do you defend?

MarkieMark48
05-23-2019, 08:04 AM
How worse can shaq be vs. a DMC, y'all forget he was still mobile for his size. Sure he wouldn't be ideal, but not the end of the world with having Shaq in there on defense. You think Marc Gasol and Older Duncan are the fastest a foot ? Not saying in has there defensive awareness, but I am sure he has better awareness vs. people give him credit for.

His presence down low will open up the 3 point shot just as much as any kick and drive beast in this era. His physicality is unmatched in nba history, with 5's being smaller in size on average due to wanting guys to switch and position-less ball, he'll probably need more then a double team most of the time, this will free up the shooters and Kobe can attack more 1 on 1's. If Kobe attacks the paint and drops off a pass for Shaq who do you defend?

I think a lot of these people posting are remembering the Celtics and Cavs Shaq... not the Lakers championship Shaq.

nastynice
05-23-2019, 08:36 AM
The refs call illegal screens, they let you hand check, and you donít switch or sit Shaq in the paint. You trap and push Harden backwards. Harden finishes with 23 turnovers. All Those TOs turn into fast break dunks for Kobe. 46 to 0. Simple math bro


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Ewing gets it...

nastynice
05-23-2019, 08:44 AM
I think a lot of these people posting are remembering the Celtics and Cavs Shaq... not the Lakers championship Shaq.

I remember magic Shaq, he was a banger, he could run fast when he got a head of steam, but he ain't back peddling from the 3pt and playing any sort of coherent defense

Who are the starting centers who move like Shaq? I'll give Gasol, he kinda does. But he even closes out 3 pt shooters.

I don't know, I just can't imagine Shaq closing out on a 3 pt shooter. The other centers, Robinson, olajuwon, ewing, they all could, but I don't think Shaq.

Manute Bol would be smackin em today, lol.

Hawkeye15
05-23-2019, 09:34 AM
You think Shaq dominates today?

I don't think he even starts today.

I was going to answer your above post, then saw this. Dude, are you insane? Shaq would literally destroy the league today, yesterday, tomorrow, anytime you name. Come the **** on

Hawkeye15
05-23-2019, 09:35 AM
Ok, then explain to me how can Shaq play defense against your Houston rockets and not give harden the same exact looks curry and Klay were getting in game 1 vs the Blazers.

What does harden shoot on uncontested 3's? 60 percent? So tell me how Shaq can play defense against your rockets and Harden not take uncontested 3's at will, and I mean literally AT WILL, hitting at 60% clip, meaning roughly 1.7 points per possession.

How can Shaquille O'Neal play defense against the rockets and not give up 1.7 pts per possession, at what 90 possessions a game? Meaning not give up 150 pts against the rockets in a game.

And yes I realize I did the math across 48 minutes, but you have to realize that harden would play 48 minutes. Because that play is the most basic screen in basketball amd that play against Shaq would require near zero effort.

So explain to me, when capella steps out to the 3 and Harden curls around him picking off his defender, where is Shaq standing? Is he in hardens face to contest the 3?

Ok, so now we have an uncontested layup, what does harden shoot on uncontested layups? 95%? 98? Let's say 1.95 pts per possession.

Ok so a wing defender slides in to contest, so harden passes to a wide open ariza, tucker, green, Gordon, Paul, what do they shoot combined on uncontested 3's? 43%? 48%? Let's say 1.4 pts per possession.

I guess the last 2 scenarios wouldn't go 48 minutes tho, since energy actually WILL be exerted.

And they say Morey know them stats... ;)

you aint getting it. It would NEVER be about Shaq adjusting, it would be about the NBA adjusting to him. That is a fact.

Hawkeye15
05-23-2019, 09:40 AM
I remember magic Shaq, he was a banger, he could run fast when he got a head of steam, but he ain't back peddling from the 3pt and playing any sort of coherent defense

Who are the starting centers who move like Shaq? I'll give Gasol, he kinda does. But he even closes out 3 pt shooters.

I don't know, I just can't imagine Shaq closing out on a 3 pt shooter. The other centers, Robinson, olajuwon, ewing, they all could, but I don't think Shaq.

Manute Bol would be smackin em today, lol.

You aren't asking Shaq to defend the 3 point line. You take a couple of open looks the other team gets because of it a game, in a trade for the utter and complete decimation of the other teams interior defense. You seriously aren't getting it. The league (especially out west and the top east teams that thought they may need to defend Shaq for the finals) stacked bigs just to use fouls. Think about that. A team literally signed players to foul a guy, because it was the ONLY way to stop him in a contact league. He would get your team into the penalty half way through a quarter, his teammates today would be much better spacers so the operating room for him (or looks for his guys) would be even better, etc.

I honestly can't believe you think the most physically dominant NBA player of all time would struggle even slightly today. All because he can't switch onto Klay for a possession haha..

Scoots
05-23-2019, 09:44 AM
The refs call illegal screens

They are going to change the rules? The current rules ALLOW moving screens.

Scoots
05-23-2019, 09:48 AM
I do think Shaq would lose weight with modern training and considering he was a monster athlete at 350lbs he would be far more agile and explosive at a more reasonable 280-310 lbs.

Hawkeye15
05-23-2019, 10:24 AM
I do think Shaq would lose weight with modern training and considering he was a monster athlete at 350lbs he would be far more agile and explosive at a more reasonable 280-310 lbs.

maybe. I met him when he was 19, and he was already 290ish. The dude was just huge. Now if you mean as he aged, you might be right.

I guess my entire point, is it's totally laughable to think Shaq wouldn't destroy any era. The game bends around him, not the other way around. The dude was being an acceptable FT shooter away from being potentially the GOAT...

MarkieMark48
05-23-2019, 11:09 AM
I remember magic Shaq, he was a banger, he could run fast when he got a head of steam, but he ain't back peddling from the 3pt and playing any sort of coherent defense

Who are the starting centers who move like Shaq? I'll give Gasol, he kinda does. But he even closes out 3 pt shooters.

I don't know, I just can't imagine Shaq closing out on a 3 pt shooter. The other centers, Robinson, olajuwon, ewing, they all could, but I don't think Shaq.

Manute Bol would be smackin em today, lol.

Youre main focus is defense... Mine isn't, prime Shaq would shoot 70% from the floor today, Id be willing to take the odds of another team not being able to shoot 50% from three.

But I do agree that Shaq wouldn't be able to guard Steph on ball the way Kevin Love did.

MarkieMark48
05-23-2019, 11:12 AM
You aren't asking Shaq to defend the 3 point line. You take a couple of open looks the other team gets because of it a game, in a trade for the utter and complete decimation of the other teams interior defense. You seriously aren't getting it. The league (especially out west and the top east teams that thought they may need to defend Shaq for the finals) stacked bigs just to use fouls. Think about that. A team literally signed players to foul a guy, because it was the ONLY way to stop him in a contact league. He would get your team into the penalty half way through a quarter, his teammates today would be much better spacers so the operating room for him (or looks for his guys) would be even better, etc.

I honestly can't believe you think the most physically dominant NBA player of all time would struggle even slightly today. All because he can't switch onto Klay for a possession haha..

This, Its not like they could manipulate it where shaq is on them every trip up the court... what about the opposite where shaq screens for fisher, and curry switches onto shaq lmao...

ewing
05-23-2019, 11:36 AM
if he played in today's era Shaq would be working on his step back 3 non stop

ewing
05-23-2019, 11:38 AM
They are going to change the rules? The current rules ALLOW moving screens.

the way the they interpret that rule has changed drastically since 7 seconds or less. I know you only care about what is written and not what is called so we can leave it at that

Scoots
05-23-2019, 11:53 AM
maybe. I met him when he was 19, and he was already 290ish. The dude was just huge. Now if you mean as he aged, you might be right.

I guess my entire point, is it's totally laughable to think Shaq wouldn't destroy any era. The game bends around him, not the other way around. The dude was being an acceptable FT shooter away from being potentially the GOAT...

People just forget how incredible an athlete he was.

pashalisgr
05-23-2019, 11:57 AM
definitely yes, fantastic team

Scoots
05-23-2019, 11:58 AM
the way the they interpret that rule has changed drastically since 7 seconds or less. I know you only care about what is written and not what is called so we can leave it at that

I don't know who warped it, I wouldn't be surprised if it was around Riley's time in the Knicks, because he was teaching guys to run through the pick which caused the screener to move and the NBA had to allow the screener to move because they were being blown up. Since then each year more players are learning the "skill" of the hip turn, stumble back conveniently into the way of the defender.

I think the way rules are called start with the letters of the rules. The block/charge, travel, and screen rules are poorly written for consistent officiating.

Hawkeye15
05-23-2019, 11:59 AM
People just forget how incredible an athlete he was.

They must. The reason he dominated was his ability to move at that size. Never seen anything like it.

WaDe03
05-23-2019, 12:21 PM
Theyíre the most stacked team ever by a good margin.

TrueFan420
05-23-2019, 02:03 PM
People just forget how incredible an athlete he was.

Itís probably because their last images of him are older where has overweight and breaking down. He had a stretch where he was looking spry again with the suns but he def didnít take care of his weight well as he aged. Young Shaq could move tho. Heís arguably the most dominant physical force the nba has ever seen.

Saddletramp
05-23-2019, 02:14 PM
Ok, then explain to me how can Shaq play defense against your Houston rockets and not give harden the same exact looks curry and Klay were getting in game 1 vs the Blazers.

What does harden shoot on uncontested 3's? 60 percent? So tell me how Shaq can play defense against your rockets and Harden not take uncontested 3's at will, and I mean literally AT WILL, hitting at 60% clip, meaning roughly 1.7 points per possession.

How can Shaquille O'Neal play defense against the rockets and not give up 1.7 pts per possession, at what 90 possessions a game? Meaning not give up 150 pts against the rockets in a game.

And yes I realize I did the math across 48 minutes, but you have to realize that harden would play 48 minutes. Because that play is the most basic screen in basketball amd that play against Shaq would require near zero effort.

So explain to me, when capella steps out to the 3 and Harden curls around him picking off his defender, where is Shaq standing? Is he in hardens face to contest the 3?

Ok, so now we have an uncontested layup, what does harden shoot on uncontested layups? 95%? 98? Let's say 1.95 pts per possession.

Ok so a wing defender slides in to contest, so harden passes to a wide open ariza, tucker, green, Gordon, Paul, what do they shoot combined on uncontested 3's? 43%? 48%? Let's say 1.4 pts per possession.

I guess the last 2 scenarios wouldn't go 48 minutes tho, since energy actually WILL be exerted.

And they say Morey know them stats... ;)

Hawkeye already ripped you a new one but do you think heíd be any worse on that switch than half the centers around today? So a dozen plays a game heíd be exposed while every play on offense heís either dominating his man or taking up two people to open up a shooter. And yes, heíll foul out your bigs in a half and get his team shooting free throws with 9 minutes left each quarter.


Yours is an embarrassingly dumb take. Feel ashamed.

JAZZNC
05-23-2019, 04:01 PM
How incredibly devastating would it be to KDs legacy if he misses most/all of the Finals and the Warriors win? I mean he's already the biggest ***** in the history of sports and then even the guys screaming that they actually need him would have to shut the hell up.

Inversely, how much better would Curry look? The team really did just switch right back to playing great basketball without KD and Curry looks incredible again. Looks like tredigs was right all along.

nastynice
05-23-2019, 04:03 PM
you aint getting it. It would NEVER be about Shaq adjusting, it would be about the NBA adjusting to him. That is a fact.

The only adjustment an opposing offense would have to make is they'll say hey let's run the easiest play in the book it, it will lead us to one of the highest efficiency shot in the book.

nastynice
05-23-2019, 04:08 PM
You aren't asking Shaq to defend the 3 point line. You take a couple of open looks the other team gets because of it a game, in a trade for the utter and complete decimation of the other teams interior defense. You seriously aren't getting it. The league (especially out west and the top east teams that thought they may need to defend Shaq for the finals) stacked bigs just to use fouls. Think about that. A team literally signed players to foul a guy, because it was the ONLY way to stop him in a contact league. He would get your team into the penalty half way through a quarter, his teammates today would be much better spacers so the operating room for him (or looks for his guys) would be even better, etc.

I honestly can't believe you think the most physically dominant NBA player of all time would struggle even slightly today. All because he can't switch onto Klay for a possession haha..

I know you're not asking Shaq to close out 3 pt shooters, that's my entire point. Because of this, he does not fit into today's game.

I know Shaq shot over 60%, I know he had people dedicated to fouling him. As such, they lost to the pistons, few blown calls away from losing to the kings, and one hot quarter away from losing to the blazers. I don't think his dominance would really translate over the way you're thinking.

If you're gonna stick by your last paragraph, then I gotta say the x's and o's of today's game eludes you.

ewing
05-23-2019, 04:29 PM
I know you're not asking Shaq to close out 3 pt shooters, that's my entire point. Because of this, he does not fit into today's game.

I know Shaq shot over 60%, I know he had people dedicated to fouling him. As such, they lost to the pistons, few blown calls away from losing to the kings, and one hot quarter away from losing to the blazers. I don't think his dominance would really translate over the way you're thinking.

If you're gonna stick by your last paragraph, then I gotta say the x's and o's of today's game eludes you.

Modern era Shaq defends 5 spots and wins gold in the triathlon

MidwestJimmy
05-23-2019, 04:49 PM
The Jordan-led Bulls would beat the Warriors in a series because Chicago actually played defense (which nobody does anymore in the NBA). But as far as this season, they might as well put GS against both the Bucks and Raptors playing 10-on-5 and the Warriors would still win. {LOL}

cmellofan15
05-23-2019, 05:12 PM
Somebody close this thread.... I cannot believe I just read that Shaq wouldn't even "start" in today's NBA...

A fat *** Serbian dude just took a roster full of no names within a game of the WCF and made All-NBA first team, but the Diesel would come off the bench? Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahah ahahahaha

cmellofan15
05-23-2019, 05:18 PM
I know you're not asking Shaq to close out 3 pt shooters, that's my entire point. Because of this, he does not fit into today's game.

I know Shaq shot over 60%, I know he had people dedicated to fouling him. As such, they lost to the pistons, few blown calls away from losing to the kings, and one hot quarter away from losing to the blazers. I don't think his dominance would really translate over the way you're thinking.

If you're gonna stick by your last paragraph, then I gotta say the x's and o's of today's game eludes you.

You are way out of line thinking that because he isn't some elite closeout defender he couldn't start in 2019. Let me give you a few big guys who aren't elite close out defenders starting in 2019: Jokic, Embiid, Horford, Marc Gasol, Brook Lopez...guess what they all have in common? Starters in this year's playoffs and all less athletic and physically imposing than Shaq.

I would love for you to explain how these guys excel but one of the GOAT big men wouldn't LMAO. This is some kind of joke, right?

nastynice
05-23-2019, 05:29 PM
You are way out of line thinking that because he isn't some elite closeout defender he couldn't start in 2019. Let me give you a few big guys who aren't elite close out defenders starting in 2019: Jokic, Embiid, Horford, Marc Gasol, Brook Lopez...guess what they all have in common? Starters in this year's playoffs and all less athletic and physically imposing than Shaq.

I would love for you to explain how these guys excel but one of the GOAT big men wouldn't LMAO. This is some kind of joke, right?

Jokic embiid and Horford are all CLEARLY more agile than Shaq. Gasol and Lopez both seem to be too. It's hard to say, I've never seen Shaq close out on a 3pt shooter, maybe if he did it turns out he's elite at it. I don't know. Either way, that particular weakness is a weakness which many opposing offense will absolutely feast on.

Saddletramp
05-23-2019, 06:07 PM
How incredibly devastating would it be to KDs legacy if he misses most/all of the Finals and the Warriors win? I mean he's already the biggest ***** in the history of sports and then even the guys screaming that they actually need him would have to shut the hell up.

Inversely, how much better would Curry look? The team really did just switch right back to playing great basketball without KD and Curry looks incredible again. Looks like tredigs was right all along.

KD saved wear and tear on Curry and co. They never needed him to win, but they need him to continue to win. He makes everyoneís job so much easier when he just ISOs and all Curry and Klay have to do is run around a bit as a decoy. How much more strain would be put on an already fragile Iguadala? With the ball in his hands waaaaay more, how much more chance for injury would Curry take on?

They need him if they want to continue to win, especially with Livingston and Iguadala close to being retired and Cousins potentially looking to cash in (probably in 2020?)

JAZZNC
05-23-2019, 08:09 PM
KD saved wear and tear on Curry and co. They never needed him to win, but they need him to continue to win. He makes everyoneís job so much easier when he just ISOs and all Curry and Klay have to do is run around a bit as a decoy. How much more strain would be put on an already fragile Iguadala? With the ball in his hands waaaaay more, how much more chance for injury would Curry take on?

They need him if they want to continue to win, especially with Livingston and Iguadala close to being retired and Cousins potentially looking to cash in (probably in 2020?)

Oh he damn sure has helped them a LOT. I just think it's gonna be a big time ding on his resume if they win without him.

Scoots
05-24-2019, 12:55 AM
340 lb Shaq would have trouble staying on the floor for as many minutes as he did in his career. In the modern NBA with the pace as high as it is he's going to burn an incredible amount of energy just running the floor.

nastynice
05-24-2019, 01:14 AM
Btw I was paying attention to Gasol today.. Yea, Shaq don't move like that, not at all, lol

Saddletramp
05-24-2019, 06:13 AM
Btw I was paying attention to Gasol today.. Yea, Shaq don't move like that, not at all, lol

He wouldnít have to, not at all, lol

nastynice
05-24-2019, 06:44 AM
This, Its not like they could manipulate it where shaq is on them every trip up the court... what about the opposite where shaq screens for fisher, and curry switches onto shaq lmao...

Nope, don't work like that, when Shaq screens for fisher, Mcgee can step up and flash and let curry catch up. Simple simple defense for a simple offense in today's game.

You guys are making a bad mistake, you are just thinking that because Shaq was so great it just automatically means it translates to any era. It doesn't.

When a center in the mold of Shaq comes along and becomes a slightly above average starting center, remember this thread, call me out, I'll eat my Crow. It's not gonna happen because it's just obvious as hell, you guys are idiots, haha (just tryina add some spice to that bowl of Crow ;))

nastynice
05-24-2019, 06:45 AM
He wouldnít have to, not at all, lol

So you're just gonna give harden an uncontested 3 on every possession?

Can you explain how he would not have to?

nastynice
05-24-2019, 06:48 AM
340 lb Shaq would have trouble staying on the floor for as many minutes as he did in his career. In the modern NBA with the pace as high as it is he's going to burn an incredible amount of energy just running the floor.

I'm just glad he played when he did, cuz Shaq was the ****in man! I remember him bringing down rims all the time. Didn't they start building them different because of him? lmao, Diesel!

nastynice
05-24-2019, 06:55 AM
Theyíre the most stacked team ever by a good margin.

Yea, definitely.

Actually by my definition of greatest bulls are the greatest. They got 6 rings, we only got 3. Greatest to me includes what was actually accomplished and what story was actually written.

We're the most stacked, not the greatest.

Not yet, at least :)

ewing
05-24-2019, 08:10 AM
Btw I was paying attention to Gasol today.. Yea, Shaq don't move like that, not at all, lol

he sure didn't

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DSN1KnAW-Y

MarkieMark48
05-24-2019, 08:31 AM
Nope, don't work like that, when Shaq screens for fisher, Mcgee can step up and flash and let curry catch up. Simple simple defense for a simple offense in today's game.

You guys are making a bad mistake, you are just thinking that because Shaq was so great it just automatically means it translates to any era. It doesn't.

When a center in the mold of Shaq comes along and becomes a slightly above average starting center, remember this thread, call me out, I'll eat my Crow. It's not gonna happen because it's just obvious as hell, you guys are idiots, haha (just tryina add some spice to that bowl of Crow ;))

It would work just as many times as you are thinking Shaq would be on ball guarding Curry/Thompson. You would be able to count on 1 hand how many times it happens a game both ways, I would trust Phil Jackson to create a defensive alignment that would keep Shaq from having to switch, he did know a little about basketball.

MarkieMark48
05-24-2019, 08:35 AM
I know you're not asking Shaq to close out 3 pt shooters, that's my entire point. Because of this, he does not fit into today's game.

I know Shaq shot over 60%, I know he had people dedicated to fouling him. As such, they lost to the pistons, few blown calls away from losing to the kings, and one hot quarter away from losing to the blazers. I don't think his dominance would really translate over the way you're thinking.

If you're gonna stick by your last paragraph, then I gotta say the x's and o's of today's game eludes you.

GS is 1 non Chris Paul injury away of losing to the Rockets... works both ways bruh

Hawkeye15
05-24-2019, 09:48 AM
I know you're not asking Shaq to close out 3 pt shooters, that's my entire point. Because of this, he does not fit into today's game.

I know Shaq shot over 60%, I know he had people dedicated to fouling him. As such, they lost to the pistons, few blown calls away from losing to the kings, and one hot quarter away from losing to the blazers. I don't think his dominance would really translate over the way you're thinking.

If you're gonna stick by your last paragraph, then I gotta say the x's and o's of today's game eludes you.

Not sure if you are just trying to stir the pot, but you are an absolute idiot if you don't know Shaq would dominate today, yesterday, tomorrow, or anytime basketball exists.

Hawkeye15
05-24-2019, 09:50 AM
340 lb Shaq would have trouble staying on the floor for as many minutes as he did in his career. In the modern NBA with the pace as high as it is he's going to burn an incredible amount of energy just running the floor.

you're still chiming in on this ****? Why are you even grouping yourself in? Shaq dominates any era, period. The degree of domination might be up for debate, but there is no question he ends up a top 10 player ever in any era. At all. In fact it would be amazing to see him today, the league wouldn't know what to do.

R. Johnson#3
05-24-2019, 10:06 AM
340 lb Shaq would have trouble staying on the floor for as many minutes as he did in his career. In the modern NBA with the pace as high as it is he's going to burn an incredible amount of energy just running the floor.

Whoís to say heíd be 340lbs if he played today? What if he stayed ďleanĒ like he was in Orlando? He got big because that gave him an advantage over everyone. Even if he did get to 340 heíd still **** on the league today.

Scoots
05-24-2019, 10:20 AM
you're still chiming in on this ****? Why are you even grouping yourself in? Shaq dominates any era, period. The degree of domination might be up for debate, but there is no question he ends up a top 10 player ever in any era. At all. In fact it would be amazing to see him today, the league wouldn't know what to do.

Why so upset? I was just saying that shaq at 340 lbs wouldn't be going 40 minutes a game like he did at his peak.

Scoots
05-24-2019, 10:21 AM
Whoís to say heíd be 340lbs if he played today? What if he stayed ďleanĒ like he was in Orlando? He got big because that gave him an advantage over everyone. Even if he did get to 340 heíd still **** on the league today.

I did talk about with modern training he'd likely drop some weight. I also said he'd be dominant on offense.

MarkieMark48
05-24-2019, 10:22 AM
Not sure if you are just trying to stir the pot, but you are an absolute idiot if you don't know Shaq would dominate today, yesterday, tomorrow, or anytime basketball exists.

I agree, I really think people are forgetting how athletic he was. Big men of today wouldn't stand a chance, he would shoot 75% from the floor

Hawkeye15
05-24-2019, 10:28 AM
Why so upset? I was just saying that shaq at 340 lbs wouldn't be going 40 minutes a game like he did at his peak.

of course not. He would also get more rest. Doesn't change anything at all.

Hawkeye15
05-24-2019, 10:30 AM
I agree, I really think people are forgetting how athletic he was. Big men of today wouldn't stand a chance, he would shoot 75% from the floor

I can't fathom how anyone would think a guy who is the most dominant physical player in history would struggle in any era. He has to be yanking our chain.

Not to flip this, but Curry is a player that we could easily debate WOULD struggle in other era's, compared to what he does today. Some guys are easy to debate, because there isn't a debate (Shaq, LeBron, Jordan). Most others may very well have been better in one time period or another.

SiteWolf
05-24-2019, 12:27 PM
Shaq also wouldn't have maintained a weight of 340 lbs at the pace of today's game

Chronz
05-24-2019, 01:21 PM
Shaq would slow this soft era down because you could not defend him with twigs. Hed do just fine defensively, players bulked up back then, I think you'd get Orlando shaq for abit longer possibly

Hawkeye15
05-24-2019, 01:55 PM
Shaq would slow this soft era down because you could not defend him with twigs. Hed do just fine defensively, players bulked up back then, I think you'd get Orlando shaq for abit longer possibly

as I have mentioned, I find it funny people are talking about how Shaq would adjust. Um, it's the other way around...

Scoots
05-24-2019, 04:04 PM
as I have mentioned, I find it funny people are talking about how Shaq would adjust. Um, it's the other way around...

I think it would be both. Only 1 shaq and 30 teams.

Hawkeye15
05-24-2019, 04:08 PM
I think it would be both. Only 1 shaq and 30 teams.

I don't. He ripped up a league full of bigs. He would pound through this finesse league like wet paper dude. I am not saying he wouldn't have some portions of his game that were weak magnified even more potentially, but there is no possible way he could be stopped offensively in today's league. None.

nastynice
05-24-2019, 05:00 PM
he sure didn't

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DSN1KnAW-Y

You'd think somewhere in there they'd show him defending someone on the perimeter. Or showing some sort of lateral movement that would translate to perimeter defense. Maybe I just missed it.

lol, bro, I already know all this, you act like Shaq wasn't my second favorite player growing up...

nastynice
05-24-2019, 05:03 PM
It would work just as many times as you are thinking Shaq would be on ball guarding Curry/Thompson. You would be able to count on 1 hand how many times it happens a game both ways, I would trust Phil Jackson to create a defensive alignment that would keep Shaq from having to switch, he did know a little about basketball.

I'm not saying Shaq would switch on to curry, I'm saying when the center comes out to 3 to set the pick, what does Shaq do?

When Lopez parks at 3 off ball, what does Shaq do?

nastynice
05-24-2019, 05:05 PM
Not sure if you are just trying to stir the pot, but you are an absolute idiot if you don't know Shaq would dominate today, yesterday, tomorrow, or anytime basketball exists.

Ok, I'm the absolute idiot yet not one person has given an actual basketball response to my reasoning as to why he would be such a liability.

If that's the barometer, then I'd rather be the idiot. For sure :)

nastynice
05-24-2019, 05:06 PM
you're still chiming in on this ****? Why are you even grouping yourself in? Shaq dominates any era, period. The degree of domination might be up for debate, but there is no question he ends up a top 10 player ever in any era. At all. In fact it would be amazing to see him today, the league wouldn't know what to do.

Yes they would. Bring Kanter out, curl Dame around him, open 3. That's a practice shot.

Storch
05-24-2019, 07:07 PM
I dont think steph can do what he does under jordan era rules.

Storch
05-24-2019, 07:09 PM
Id love to see Tim Dincanís prime spurs vs the warriors, or even Nashís prime suns. Would be very entertaining.

Im not saying those two teams are as good as gsw but it would be fun to watch

TrueFan420
05-24-2019, 09:06 PM
Id love to see Tim Dincanís prime spurs vs the warriors, or even Nashís prime suns. Would be very entertaining.

Im not saying those two teams are as good as gsw but it would be fun to watch

Iíd love to have seen Curry on the Suns for Nash. That would have been very very interesting.

Scoots
05-24-2019, 10:44 PM
I don't. He ripped up a league full of bigs. He would pound through this finesse league like wet paper dude. I am not saying he wouldn't have some portions of his game that were weak magnified even more potentially, but there is no possible way he could be stopped offensively in today's league. None.

I agree with you, I just think the whole NBA won't suddenly starting playing the game his way. I could see the hack a shaq being even more common. The Warriors lead the NBA and averaged 1.13 points per possession but fouling shaq every time he gets the ball would yield 1.4 points per possession if he maintained his career average. Can you imagine if he was a 75% FT shooter what his offensive game would have been like? It would be interesting to see what teams did against him today, and maybe we'll get a tiny little hint of if with Zion in the coming years.

Scoots
05-24-2019, 10:51 PM
Ok, I'm the absolute idiot yet not one person has given an actual basketball response to my reasoning as to why he would be such a liability.

If that's the barometer, then I'd rather be the idiot. For sure :)

I think the idea is that any liability Shaq's huge frame may bring on defense would be more than countered on the other end. If you watch how the league is letting Giannis go through people, then add that Shaq was far more skilled around the basket than Giannis and 100 lbs more man ... it would be a joke.

To your point, I think they would try to get Shaq lighter so he could maintain a higher pace, because I could see teams trying to run him off the floor long term. But when he's on the floor on offense he is a devastating offensive system in any era.

Storch
05-25-2019, 12:32 AM
Iíd love to have seen Curry on the Suns for Nash. That would have been very very interesting.

Agreed.

Storch
05-25-2019, 12:33 AM
I think the idea is that any liability Shaq's huge frame may bring on defense would be more than countered on the other end. If you watch how the league is letting Giannis go through people, then add that Shaq was far more skilled around the basket than Giannis and 100 lbs more man ... it would be a joke.

To your point, I think they would try to get Shaq lighter so he could maintain a higher pace, because I could see teams trying to run him off the floor long term. But when he's on the floor on offense he is a devastating offensive system in any era.

True, however Shaqís effectiveness in the low post prevents fast breaks. Hard to run him off the floor consistently

Scoots
05-25-2019, 12:40 AM
True, however Shaqís effectiveness in the low post prevents fast breaks. Hard to run him off the floor consistently

True, but there are teams that have had success running on made buckets too.

Regardless it would be interesting.

nastynice
05-25-2019, 01:43 AM
I think the idea is that any liability Shaq's huge frame may bring on defense would be more than countered on the other end. If you watch how the league is letting Giannis go through people, then add that Shaq was far more skilled around the basket than Giannis and 100 lbs more man ... it would be a joke.

To your point, I think they would try to get Shaq lighter so he could maintain a higher pace, because I could see teams trying to run him off the floor long term. But when he's on the floor on offense he is a devastating offensive system in any era.

I ain't saying nothing bout his offense, the guy was a beast and still would be. All I said was that he may not be a starter, and if they played Houston in the playoffs, they might not want to start him. Harden would punish that defense beyond anything we've seen, the guy put up what like 30 30pt games on modern defense, what do you think he would do against that? He'd average more points that series than Wilt chamberlain scored in his record game, lol, cmon wtf.

Maybe I'm wrong, fine, but it's gonna take more than "bro you're such an idiot, Shaq was a beast!" to make a point. Just tell me how they would defend that offense. If I'm really that dumb and it's really that obvious, then that should be a simple thing to do, right?

Cuz I see 3 options off a simple high pick. 1.stay in the paint, give open 3, 2. Close out harden, give the open lane, 3. Flash on harden to let his defender catch up, give the open alley oop to capella.

Shaqs an animal, he'll disrupt things, it's not like every play would just be flat out uncontested, but if you gonna watch that take place on film, the offense would be basically heading in to game 2 exactly replicating game 1 offense. All those situations are a win for the offense.

nastynice
05-25-2019, 01:49 AM
I think the idea is that any liability Shaq's huge frame may bring on defense would be more than countered on the other end. If you watch how the league is letting Giannis go through people, then add that Shaq was far more skilled around the basket than Giannis and 100 lbs more man ... it would be a joke.

To your point, I think they would try to get Shaq lighter so he could maintain a higher pace, because I could see teams trying to run him off the floor long term. But when he's on the floor on offense he is a devastating offensive system in any era.

Giannis and Shaq are completely different. Giannis isn't getting dunks because of his power, he's getting them because of his agility and wing span. Shaq was pure ****in power. And yes, very skilled actually, his post game was extremely refined.

Chronz
05-25-2019, 10:35 AM
Hes absolutely getting dunks because of his power, dude manhandled bigs, or at least what passes for interior bigs for today. Shaq had the highest recorded vertical reach so his length was a factor for sure and for his size, we've never seen such agilty.

Obviously Giannis is getting his more from the perimeter going inside whereas Shaq was strictly an interior player, they played different positions. When Shaq declined, the league had less of a need for his position. If you didn't have an elite post defender he would kill you. I'd argue he single handedly kept brute stiffs employed back then.

I remember when both Shaq and ZO came into the league and both looked to beef up, it brought out their best days for their era. Maybe going lean the way Duncan did in his later days would be the adjustment today (Shaq doesn't get enough credit but he did shed some weight after the titles) but they wouldn't have to change much in their athletic prime.


Transport 20 year old Shaq today and he(+his teams) enjoys the faster pace game, the space available to a singularly dominant focal point. Think of a 7"1 Amare Stoudemire (a guy he once said reminded him of a younger version of himself). I envision him just evolving differently or the league is forced to go big again, either way he changes the game, again.

Hawkeye15
05-25-2019, 10:35 AM
I ain't saying nothing bout his offense, the guy was a beast and still would be. All I said was that he may not be a starter, and if they played Houston in the playoffs, they might not want to start him. Harden would punish that defense beyond anything we've seen, the guy put up what like 30 30pt games on modern defense, what do you think he would do against that? He'd average more points that series than Wilt chamberlain scored in his record game, lol, cmon wtf.

Maybe I'm wrong, fine, but it's gonna take more than "bro you're such an idiot, Shaq was a beast!" to make a point. Just tell me how they would defend that offense. If I'm really that dumb and it's really that obvious, then that should be a simple thing to do, right?

Cuz I see 3 options off a simple high pick. 1.stay in the paint, give open 3, 2. Close out harden, give the open lane, 3. Flash on harden to let his defender catch up, give the open alley oop to capella.

Shaqs an animal, he'll disrupt things, it's not like every play would just be flat out uncontested, but if you gonna watch that take place on film, the offense would be basically heading in to game 2 exactly replicating game 1 offense. All those situations are a win for the offense.

Yeah, you're wrong....

Chronz
05-25-2019, 10:44 AM
I ain't saying nothing bout his offense, the guy was a beast and still would be. All I said was that he may not be a starter, and if they played Houston in the playoffs, they might not want to start him. Harden would punish that defense beyond anything we've seen, the guy put up what like 30 30pt games on modern defense, what do you think he would do against that? He'd average more points that series than Wilt chamberlain scored in his record game, lol, cmon wtf.

Maybe I'm wrong, fine, but it's gonna take more than "bro you're such an idiot, Shaq was a beast!" to make a point. Just tell me how they would defend that offense. If I'm really that dumb and it's really that obvious, then that should be a simple thing to do, right?

Cuz I see 3 options off a simple high pick. 1.stay in the paint, give open 3, 2. Close out harden, give the open lane, 3. Flash on harden to let his defender catch up, give the open alley oop to capella.

Shaqs an animal, he'll disrupt things, it's not like every play would just be flat out uncontested, but if you gonna watch that take place on film, the offense would be basically heading in to game 2 exactly replicating game 1 offense. All those situations are a win for the offense.
The expected value on a Shaq touch would go up today, there is no one on that level of power/agility/size. The amount of swarming would allow his teams to feast on a steady flow of open, set 3's. It would be untenable for the league to continue evolving ignoring a player of his immense talent to simply dominate to that degree imo. At least to the point where teams might have to stash rotational minutes to help in the interior.

I do get that the rule changes would change how you also build around Shaq, cant pair him up with the likes of AC Green, more Robert Horry types.

LOL, Houstons defense is built around mitigating Hardens defensive shortcomings and highlighting his strength as a post defender, its a big reason they switch everything. Harden attempting to guard Shaq would give up far more than anything he could produce on the other end, especially in the playoffs where he has historically struggled. If Houston cant switch everything then Harden is exploited fully.

ewing
05-25-2019, 10:47 AM
I ain't saying nothing bout his offense, the guy was a beast and still would be. All I said was that he may not be a starter, and if they played Houston in the playoffs, they might not want to start him. Harden would punish that defense beyond anything we've seen, the guy put up what like 30 30pt games on modern defense, what do you think he would do against that? He'd average more points that series than Wilt chamberlain scored in his record game, lol, cmon wtf.

Maybe I'm wrong, fine, but it's gonna take more than "bro you're such an idiot, Shaq was a beast!" to make a point. Just tell me how they would defend that offense. If I'm really that dumb and it's really that obvious, then that should be a simple thing to do, right?

Cuz I see 3 options off a simple high pick. 1.stay in the paint, give open 3, 2. Close out harden, give the open lane, 3. Flash on harden to let his defender catch up, give the open alley oop to capella.

Shaqs an animal, he'll disrupt things, it's not like every play would just be flat out uncontested, but if you gonna watch that take place on film, the offense would be basically heading in to game 2 exactly replicating game 1 offense. All those situations are a win for the offense.

I already told you how they would defend it. Kobe and Shaq would trap the screen role and push him backwards. If he tried to split it, he might get get through a couple times, but he would also get pushed back a bunch of times, turn it over a bunch, and likely run into Shaq's hip and hurt himself at some point trying to cross and split them

Chronz
05-25-2019, 10:57 AM
I agree with you, I just think the whole NBA won't suddenly starting playing the game his way. I could see the hack a shaq being even more common. The Warriors lead the NBA and averaged 1.13 points per possession but fouling shaq every time he gets the ball would yield 1.4 points per possession if he maintained his career average. Can you imagine if he was a 75% FT shooter what his offensive game would have been like? It would be interesting to see what teams did against him today, and maybe we'll get a tiny little hint of if with Zion in the coming years.

I was thinking of zion too, much more compact version of Shaq. Hack a shaq is also legislated against more than ever and the defensive return for teams that get to set up their defense as other teams are forced to foul is worth mentioning here. Dubs aint getting to 1.13 if they get less transition opportunities.

And just on a subjective level, alot of these guys would be scared of playing Center in a Shaq dominated league. Hell, even a star center like Anthony Davis prefers playing the 4 and that has less meaning than ever. I know the Dubs are very cautious with the load at center that Draymond carries, that would be of more importance if the league got bigger. I do think you could mitigate Shaqs strengths more today with the proper personnel in terms of strategy but I also think you could make greater use of his offensive rebounding potential, with how easy it is for guards to penetrate today just giving him a dump off or offensive rebounding chance would hurt teams more today.

Chronz
05-25-2019, 11:06 AM
I know 2011 was such a long time ago but did you guys honestly not watch that old man version of Shaq and see possessions where he would have just thrown it down in his younger years. That old man version of Shaq was immensely valuable for a contending Celtics squad and before his injury was producing on an all-star level.

****, the Steve Nash Suns era might be considered stone age by now but there was a portion where the Seven seconds or Shaq offense was tearing up the league and it was a rebirth of sorts for him at the time, although that was mostly due to the medical staff it still makes my point for me. Shaq would thrive in ANY era, he may tweak his game/body for the time but it is a 2-way street with the league tweaking its makeup as well.

Scoots
05-25-2019, 11:10 AM
I ain't saying nothing bout his offense, the guy was a beast and still would be. All I said was that he may not be a starter, and if they played Houston in the playoffs, they might not want to start him. Harden would punish that defense beyond anything we've seen, the guy put up what like 30 30pt games on modern defense, what do you think he would do against that? He'd average more points that series than Wilt chamberlain scored in his record game, lol, cmon wtf.

Maybe I'm wrong, fine, but it's gonna take more than "bro you're such an idiot, Shaq was a beast!" to make a point. Just tell me how they would defend that offense. If I'm really that dumb and it's really that obvious, then that should be a simple thing to do, right?

Cuz I see 3 options off a simple high pick. 1.stay in the paint, give open 3, 2. Close out harden, give the open lane, 3. Flash on harden to let his defender catch up, give the open alley oop to capella.

Shaqs an animal, he'll disrupt things, it's not like every play would just be flat out uncontested, but if you gonna watch that take place on film, the offense would be basically heading in to game 2 exactly replicating game 1 offense. All those situations are a win for the offense.

I think he'd start, then get a rest, then come back in with the bench guys and totally dominate for 5-8 minutes and get a rest when the starters come back in and repeat in the 2nd half. He'd get 28-30 minutes a night and tear people up on offense and be okay on defense.

A good defense coach might pre-switch Shaq to keep him on someone in the paint or on the baseline.

Scoots
05-25-2019, 11:11 AM
Giannis and Shaq are completely different. Giannis isn't getting dunks because of his power, he's getting them because of his agility and wing span. Shaq was pure ****in power. And yes, very skilled actually, his post game was extremely refined.

I was just referring to Giannis' tendency to go through people.

Chronz
05-25-2019, 11:32 AM
Didn't the warriors lose cwebb cuz he didn't want to defend shaq

COOLbeans
05-25-2019, 12:57 PM
They wouldnít have altered the rules so drastically if Shaq was still in the league. They wouldnít want to neutralize one of the greatest weapons ever.

Defensive rules would be different in terms of zone play and physicality to say the least. And big men would still be more valued because youíd need guys to contend with Shaq

nastynice
05-25-2019, 01:32 PM
I already told you how they would defend it. Kobe and Shaq would trap the screen role and push him backwards. If he tried to split it, he might get get through a couple times, but he would also get pushed back a bunch of times, turn it over a bunch, and likely run into Shaq's hip and hurt himself at some point trying to cross and split them

Oh, I can't tell when you're serious or just messing around. That let's Capela role pretty easily to the rim if you gonna trap every play

ewing
05-25-2019, 01:47 PM
Oh, I can't tell when you're serious or just messing around. That let's Capela role pretty easily to the rim if you gonna trap every play

Please the trap is immediate of the screen and forces Harden back. Clint ainít getting a lob at the rim that fast and that is the only thing he is capable of as the role man. Clint gets lobs when people try to hedge and recovery. We are blitzing his ***. Harden is a turnover machine against pressure. You pressure him and take the ball out of his hands.


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Scoots
05-25-2019, 01:52 PM
Didn't the warriors lose cwebb cuz he didn't want to defend shaq

They lost him because he couldn't drive over bridges he was so afraid of earthquakes. And Don Nelson traded his best friend on the team.

crewfan13
05-25-2019, 04:36 PM
I ain't saying nothing bout his offense, the guy was a beast and still would be. All I said was that he may not be a starter, and if they played Houston in the playoffs, they might not want to start him. Harden would punish that defense beyond anything we've seen, the guy put up what like 30 30pt games on modern defense, what do you think he would do against that? He'd average more points that series than Wilt chamberlain scored in his record game, lol, cmon wtf.

Maybe I'm wrong, fine, but it's gonna take more than "bro you're such an idiot, Shaq was a beast!" to make a point. Just tell me how they would defend that offense. If I'm really that dumb and it's really that obvious, then that should be a simple thing to do, right?

Cuz I see 3 options off a simple high pick. 1.stay in the paint, give open 3, 2. Close out harden, give the open lane, 3. Flash on harden to let his defender catch up, give the open alley oop to capella.

Shaqs an animal, he'll disrupt things, it's not like every play would just be flat out uncontested, but if you gonna watch that take place on film, the offense would be basically heading in to game 2 exactly replicating game 1 offense. All those situations are a win for the offense.

Do you think brook lopez is more agile than a young shaq? By quite a few advanced stats the bucks had the best defense in the nba with brook lopez operating as the primary center. If you don't think prime shaq could do at least 80% of what brook lopez does defensively, I don't know what to tell you.

The magic had a top 10 defense with vucevic, who's not extraordinarily agile either. On the warriors first title runx Andrew bigut started the majority of their playoff games.

I really think you're overrating the need for super agile bigs. And that doesn't even take into account that shaq was so good offensively he'd force teams to start answering by playing offensively challenged bigs to defend him. I'm not saying shaq wins league mvp every year but you can construct a functional defense with him as your center, especially if you're talking young shaq.

crewfan13
05-25-2019, 04:45 PM
I ain't saying nothing bout his offense, the guy was a beast and still would be. All I said was that he may not be a starter, and if they played Houston in the playoffs, they might not want to start him. Harden would punish that defense beyond anything we've seen, the guy put up what like 30 30pt games on modern defense, what do you think he would do against that? He'd average more points that series than Wilt chamberlain scored in his record game, lol, cmon wtf.

Maybe I'm wrong, fine, but it's gonna take more than "bro you're such an idiot, Shaq was a beast!" to make a point. Just tell me how they would defend that offense. If I'm really that dumb and it's really that obvious, then that should be a simple thing to do, right?

Cuz I see 3 options off a simple high pick. 1.stay in the paint, give open 3, 2. Close out harden, give the open lane, 3. Flash on harden to let his defender catch up, give the open alley oop to capella.

Shaqs an animal, he'll disrupt things, it's not like every play would just be flat out uncontested, but if you gonna watch that take place on film, the offense would be basically heading in to game 2 exactly replicating game 1 offense. All those situations are a win for the offense.

Staying in the paint doesn't give an open 3, it gives an open mid range. The defender on Harden fights over the screen. If you fight over, you can still contest 3s. But it allows for Harden to go to the hoop. Shaq can play deep enough to still defend the oop or the drive, but if gives Harden an advantage in the mid range, which isn't what he wants to do. And honestly, harden doesn't even run a ton of pick and rolls any more and it's a relatively inefficient play for him, so you're sort of digging in on something that isn't even as big of deal as you're making it out to be.

And by your defensive logic, the only way to defend the pick and roll is to have a big that can prevent the ball handler from getting to the hoop no matter what and that's simply not the case. There's almost no bigs that would switch onto harden and stop him one on one. There's other ways to defend it than just that, but by the logic you are using to say shaq couldn't even start, you're basically saying no big can start because you have to be able to switch your big onto harden to stop it.

ewing
05-25-2019, 04:51 PM
Staying in the paint doesn't give an open 3, it gives an open mid range. The defender on Harden fights over the screen. If you fight over, you can still contest 3s. But it allows for Harden to go to the hoop. Shaq can play deep enough to still defend the oop or the drive, but if gives Harden an advantage in the mid range, which isn't what he wants to do. And honestly, harden doesn't even run a ton of pick and rolls any more and it's a relatively inefficient play for him, so you're sort of digging in on something that isn't even as big of deal as you're making it out to be.

And by your defensive logic, the only way to defend the pick and roll is to have a big that can prevent the ball handler from getting to the hoop no matter what and that's simply not the case. There's almost no bigs that would switch onto harden and stop him one on one. There's other ways to defend it than just that, but by the logic you are using to say shaq couldn't even start, you're basically saying no big can start because you have to be able to switch your big onto harden to stop it.

True he is mostly an ISO and Kobe would lock him up


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nastynice
05-25-2019, 10:47 PM
Please the trap is immediate of the screen and forces Harden back. Clint ainít getting a lob at the rim that fast and that is the only thing he is capable of as the role man. Clint gets lobs when people try to hedge and recovery. We are blitzing his ***. Harden is a turnover machine against pressure. You pressure him and take the ball out of his hands.


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You're saying to trap with Shaq, right? He just has to blindly throw it to the paint if that's the case. He just has to keep stepping sideways to be iso'd on Shaq.

BTW, I figured who we can compare Shaqs perimeter defense with. Zaza! Ol boy be injuring fools n ****, lol

nastynice
05-25-2019, 10:49 PM
Do you think brook lopez is more agile than a young shaq? By quite a few advanced stats the bucks had the best defense in the nba with brook lopez operating as the primary center. If you don't think prime shaq could do at least 80% of what brook lopez does defensively, I don't know what to tell you.

The magic had a top 10 defense with vucevic, who's not extraordinarily agile either. On the warriors first title runx Andrew bigut started the majority of their playoff games.

I really think you're overrating the need for super agile bigs. And that doesn't even take into account that shaq was so good offensively he'd force teams to start answering by playing offensively challenged bigs to defend him. I'm not saying shaq wins league mvp every year but you can construct a functional defense with him as your center, especially if you're talking young shaq.

I'm not talking about stats, I'm talking about a playoff series

nastynice
05-25-2019, 11:03 PM
Staying in the paint doesn't give an open 3, it gives an open mid range. The defender on Harden fights over the screen. If you fight over, you can still contest 3s. But it allows for Harden to go to the hoop. Shaq can play deep enough to still defend the oop or the drive, but if gives Harden an advantage in the mid range, which isn't what he wants to do. And honestly, harden doesn't even run a ton of pick and rolls any more and it's a relatively inefficient play for him, so you're sort of digging in on something that isn't even as big of deal as you're making it out to be.

And by your defensive logic, the only way to defend the pick and roll is to have a big that can prevent the ball handler from getting to the hoop no matter what and that's simply not the case. There's almost no bigs that would switch onto harden and stop him one on one. There's other ways to defend it than just that, but by the logic you are using to say shaq couldn't even start, you're basically saying no big can start because you have to be able to switch your big onto harden to stop it.

I think your big DOES need the ability to flash. Without that, defense becomes super predictable. Without that, from a strategic perspective, every trip down the court will be a win for the offense.

crewfan13
05-25-2019, 11:45 PM
I'm not talking about stats, I'm talking about a playoff series

The warriors won a championship with Andrew bogut as the starting center. The raptors just made the finals with an aging Marc gasol at center. Prime shaq was much more athletic than either guy and capable of playing the same level defense they play on the perimeter.

cmellofan15
05-26-2019, 12:30 AM
Didn't you know that Shaq was too big to move, that dude could never close out a shot, and he was way too dumb to defend a pick and roll. Here let me show you some stats about pace to prove that LMAO.

goingfor28
05-26-2019, 12:48 AM
Imagine any big or sets of bigs today trying to stop Shaq from 10 dunks a nightThank you

nastynice
05-26-2019, 01:36 AM
The warriors won a championship with Andrew bogut as the starting center. The raptors just made the finals with an aging Marc gasol at center. Prime shaq was much more athletic than either guy and capable of playing the same level defense they play on the perimeter.

Ok, I'll concede that if Shaq were on the warriors then yes he could also win a chip.

He probably wouldn't play much in the Houston series tho..

All I'm saying is Shaq may legitimately not be a starter because of how he can be attacked on defense. I'm not saying he CAN'T start, or couldn't do damage. I understand he was a beast , but some players would struggle in diff eras. Doesn't take anything away from their greatness. I don't think bird and McHale would be anything close to what they were in today's game. Nothing against those guys, but the game is different. Magic and kareem would. Their skill set just translates, while the other guys don't.

goingfor28
05-26-2019, 01:47 AM
Ok, I'll concede that if Shaq were on the warriors then yes he could also win a chip.

He probably wouldn't play much in the Houston series tho..

All I'm saying is Shaq may legitimately not be a starter because of how he can be attacked on defense. I'm not saying he CAN'T start, or couldn't do damage. I understand he was a beast , but some players would struggle in diff eras. Doesn't take anything away from their greatness. I don't think bird and McHale would be anything close to what they were in today's game. Nothing against those guys, but the game is different. Magic and kareem would. Their skill set just translates, while the other guys don't.

Looooooooooool Shaq would average 60 and 20 without trying. Literally nobody playing right now would even have a slim chance of slowing down prime Shaq.

But sure, he might not play and if he did, he definitely wouldn't start.

Bahahahaha. Wow.

nastynice
05-26-2019, 02:19 AM
Looooooooooool Shaq would average 60 and 20 without trying. Literally nobody playing right now would even have a slim chance of slowing down prime Shaq.

But sure, he might not play and if he did, he definitely wouldn't start.

Bahahahaha. Wow.

Prime shaq wouldn't put up 60 against a bogut (3-4 yrs ago) Mcgee combo. How much does that cost? Cmon man, it's called a match up.

Yes, he's a match-up nightmare, and he won't be stopped, period. But Brad Miller and vlade divac didn't let him go for 60. (I'm guessing, I have no clue how much he was putting up on them) you don't need some sort of elite talent at center in order to play his team.

He would be a ****in animal offensively tho, his post presence combined with modern day shooting, that would be something. Even in Orlando, I'd say he was an elite passing center, the way Orlando shot 3's they were ahead of the game.

nastynice
05-26-2019, 02:24 AM
First post popped for me from the ecf thread



Speaking of defense, Brook was all over the floor covering guys and then dropping back when the ball swung.
.

Nah mean. Pay attention.

nastynice
05-26-2019, 02:37 AM
You know what tho, watching ESPN and seeing these clips, man, Gasol and Lopez would get straight trucked. Yea, they just built different now. I guess bogut Mcgee works cuz Mcgee is just a little extra physical freak and boguts from the old school. But across the league, yea guys like Gasol and Lopez would get steamrolled.

Yea, I guess it's just about how the offensive domination would balance the defensive liability.

Hawkeye15
05-29-2019, 09:58 AM
You know what tho, watching ESPN and seeing these clips, man, Gasol and Lopez would get straight trucked. Yea, they just built different now. I guess bogut Mcgee works cuz Mcgee is just a little extra physical freak and boguts from the old school. But across the league, yea guys like Gasol and Lopez would get steamrolled.

Yea, I guess it's just about how the offensive domination would balance the defensive liability.

Shaq would murder this league

IKnowHoops
05-29-2019, 05:56 PM
Duh

IKnowHoops
05-29-2019, 05:58 PM
David Robinson would be an animal in this era because he could actually shoot the 3. In this era heís practice it and heís be unstoppable from everywhere. GS would be better with Drob than with Durant

nastynice
05-29-2019, 06:23 PM
Shaq would murder this league

Maybe. Soon after I wrote that post I saw a okc jazz match up, Adam's and gobert could both play legit defense on him.

Just depends on the team I guess, there's def a few teams who would need to sign someone to deal with him.

ewing
05-29-2019, 07:33 PM
David Robinson would be an animal in this era because he could actually shoot the 3. In this era heís practice it and heís be unstoppable from everywhere. GS would be better with Drob than with Durant

Super long elite athlete with no foot work but good touch. Heíd be better off today


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ewing
05-29-2019, 07:34 PM
Maybe. Soon after I wrote that post I saw a okc jazz match up, Adam's and gobert could both play legit defense on him.

Just depends on the team I guess, there's def a few teams who would need to sign someone to deal with him.

No they couldnít


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nastynice
05-29-2019, 07:44 PM
No they couldnít


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Yes they can

ewing
05-29-2019, 08:15 PM
Yes they can

No one could then and no one would be able to now. When it matter he regularly got 35 and 15 with everyone collapsing on him. Leave any player in the league one on one with Shaq and he gets moved under the basket and dunked on over and over again


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COOLbeans
05-29-2019, 10:59 PM
David Robinson would be an animal in this era because he could actually shoot the 3. In this era heís practice it and heís be unstoppable from everywhere. GS would be better with Drob than with Durant

David Robinson would probably be the best player in the league right now (minus if Shaq were also in the league).

nastynice
05-29-2019, 11:10 PM
No one could then and no one would be able to now. When it matter he regularly got 35 and 15 with everyone collapsing on him. Leave any player in the league one on one with Shaq and he gets moved under the basket and dunked on over and over again


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Let me clarify what i was saying. I'm not saying any of these guys can stop Shaq, I'm saying these centers today can guard Shaq the way they did back then. So Shaq would still be putting up 35 and 15,no doubt, but he won't be putting up 60 with no effort as some people implied earlier.

Maybe against Gasol and Lopez he would, sure, but there's still some big boys in this league. Adam's and gobert could keep him at his normal 35 and 15 rate.

IKnowHoops
05-29-2019, 11:20 PM
Let me clarify what i was saying. I'm not saying any of these guys can stop Shaq, I'm saying these centers today can guard Shaq the way they did back then. So Shaq would still be putting up 35 and 15,no doubt, but he won't be putting up 60 with no effort as some people implied earlier.

Maybe against Gasol and Lopez he would, sure, but there's still some big boys in this league. Adam's and gobert could keep him at his normal 35 and 15 rate.

The best centers then were waaaaaaaaaaay better than today. Nobody can thro up 60 with no effort, but the game is so much more spread out now that Shaq would have a lot more one on ones against very trashy centers. It would be a bloodbath for a team to play todayís style of play against Shaq.

At the end of the day, Shaq would change the way every team played when they played him just like all the other teams back in the day. What ultimately would happen though is Shaq would win more because if you paired Steph Curry and Shaq together, they would never loose. Shaq sourrounded by this era of three point shooters would be impossible to guard. Shaq + 4 marksmen =ring 100% of the time. A great 3 pt shooter will either be wide open or Shaq is dunking. A good coach like Pop would make sure one of those happened on every play.

Saddletramp
05-29-2019, 11:35 PM
Let me clarify what i was saying. I'm not saying any of these guys can stop Shaq, I'm saying these centers today can guard Shaq the way they did back then. So Shaq would still be putting up 35 and 15,no doubt, but he won't be putting up 60 with no effort as some people implied earlier.

Maybe against Gasol and Lopez he would, sure, but there's still some big boys in this league. Adam's and gobert could keep him at his normal 35 and 15 rate.

So you think heíd average 35 and 15 but he wouldnít be a starter? Do you see how absolutely idiotic this is? And like IKH just said, the centers back then were waaaaay better.

And if itís defense thatís the problem, Kanter has been a starter before this year and his defense is trash......and heís not averaging 35 and ****ing 15.


Keep digging that hole so anyone new can see what the rest of us already know.

Hawkeye15
05-29-2019, 11:53 PM
Maybe. Soon after I wrote that post I saw a okc jazz match up, Adam's and gobert could both play legit defense on him.

Just depends on the team I guess, there's def a few teams who would need to sign someone to deal with him.

He would hulk smash through any defender today, or ever. You can't guard Shaq with any single player and hope to contain him. What teams today have the big man count to even deal with him? None dude. Yes, he might weigh less and he may get put into tougher defensive positions today, but his strength and physical dominance is way too much for this paper thin big man league when it comes to the painted area. He would kill teams now offensively

Hawkeye15
05-29-2019, 11:55 PM
Adams is widely considered the strongest guy in the game. Shaq was 3" taller and 40-60 lbs bigger

TrueFan420
05-30-2019, 12:12 AM
Adams is widely considered the strongest guy in the game. Shaq was 3" taller and 40-60 lbs bigger

I think you got that wrong. Their closer in height and farther off in weight. Tho if he played today many centers would add weight to deal with him vs drop weight to handle being out on the perimeter. However, Ben Wallace was 6í9 260 and did well against Shaq. But he was special defensively.

Doesnít matter tho, Shaq would get his in this league.

IKnowHoops
05-30-2019, 01:55 AM
People think Shaq was just abnormally big and strong. He was also abnormally athletic. His spin moves were so quick with so much took and force, groups of players would explode off of him if they got caught in the wake. He could get his hand up higher than David Robinson. I saw all there matchups in Drobs Prime. David was faster and quicker, but surprisingly, Orlando Shaq and 1st and 2nd year laker Shaq could jump higher. Penetrating the lane for a dunk while a Shaq was there was not even attempted. Derrick Coleman is the only person Iíve seen get. True dunk on Shaq.

IKnowHoops
05-30-2019, 01:58 AM
Please watch as a refresher if you donít think Shaq would destroy this league.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=O_xZyNihY2M

nastynice
05-30-2019, 02:45 AM
So you think heíd average 35 and 15 but he wouldnít be a starter? Do you see how absolutely idiotic this is? And like IKH just said, the centers back then were waaaaay better.

And if itís defense thatís the problem, Kanter has been a starter before this year and his defense is trash......and heís not averaging 35 and ****ing 15.


Keep digging that hole so anyone new can see what the rest of us already know.

He'd put up 35 and 15 if you run your offense through him, meaning setting him up on the block. How many offenses run like that today?

Regardless it's not 35 and 15 while fitting into a modern offense.

And the point is, is 35 and 15 worth that big a defensive liability? Maybe, maybe not..

nastynice
05-30-2019, 02:49 AM
The best centers then were waaaaaaaaaaay better than today. .

Offensively yes, much more skilled. But the height, weight, speed ratio is better today, and that's probably a better predictor of defense than skill

nastynice
05-30-2019, 02:51 AM
Adams is widely considered the strongest guy in the game. Shaq was 3" taller and 40-60 lbs bigger

Yea, Adam's is hella strong tho. What was Ben Wallace at? What numbers was Shaq putting up on him in 04 finals?

Hawkeye15
05-30-2019, 09:23 AM
Yea, Adam's is hella strong tho. What was Ben Wallace at? What numbers was Shaq putting up on him in 04 finals?

Shaq actually played just fine that series. But we all know the complete dysfunction, and ensuing breakup of the Shaq/Kobe pairing played a part in that failure. As did trying to feature 2 geezers in the lineup. And again, the Pistons didn't single cover Shaq. Nobody did. They had 2 other huge bodies off the bench, and used a team effort to collapse on Shaq.

And his dominance came against a league of bigs in the paint, and against teams that loaded up on him. Today's league wouldn't even have the bodies to stop him.

Hawkeye15
05-30-2019, 09:31 AM
I think you got that wrong. Their closer in height and farther off in weight. Tho if he played today many centers would add weight to deal with him vs drop weight to handle being out on the perimeter. However, Ben Wallace was 6í9 260 and did well against Shaq. But he was special defensively.

Doesnít matter tho, Shaq would get his in this league.

that is my entire point-the league would be adjusting to him, not the other way around...

cmellofan15
05-30-2019, 10:12 AM
Yea, Adam's is hella strong tho. What was Ben Wallace at? What numbers was Shaq putting up on him in 04 finals?

27 and 11 versus an all time defender...and we're talking about the guy that boxes out for Westbrook?? LMAOOOOO

IKnowHoops
05-30-2019, 10:20 AM
Offensively yes, much more skilled. But the height, weight, speed ratio is better today, and that's probably a better predictor of defense than skill

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

Drob 7 foot
Dream 6Ē10 ridiculous long arms
Patrick 7 foot
Mutumbo 7 foot
Yao 7 6
Bradley 7 6
Manute 7 6
Eaton lol 7 5
Rick Smith 7 3
Mourning 6 10 benched 400 long arms

What is you talkin bout?

Drob
Dream
Eaton all averaged over 4 blocks per game multiple seasons.

Guys donít even get 3 today so quit with the better defense.

Dream and Drob are faster than any centers today by far

Hawkeye15
05-30-2019, 10:27 AM
27 and 11 versus an all time defender...and we're talking about the guy that boxes out for Westbrook?? LMAOOOOO

putting those numbers up as he was being shipped out of LA for a young Kobe, while playing half assed haha.

Hawkeye15
05-30-2019, 10:28 AM
Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

Drob 7 foot
Dream 6Ē10 ridiculous long arms
Patrick 7 foot
Mutumbo 7 foot
Yao 7 6
Bradley 7 6
Manute 7 6
Eaton lol 7 5
Rick Smith 7 3
Mourning 6 10 benched 400 long arms

What is you talkin bout?

Drob
Dream
Eaton all averaged over 4 blocks per game multiple seasons.

Guys donít even get 3 today so quit with the better defense.

Dream and Drob are faster than any centers today by far

Big men are DIFFERENT now, but the post bigs of yesterday were used to dealing with a Shaq type, and still got destroyed. Seriously, today's spread out league would just get wiped by Shaq.

TrueFan420
05-30-2019, 11:02 AM
that is my entire point-the league would be adjusting to him, not the other way around...
I completely agree but I donít think it would be 1 sided. The league would likely have to adjust more but Shaq would too. He would have to get his weight under control because defensives would pull him farther out from the hoop than ever before.

Hawkeye15
05-30-2019, 11:36 AM
I completely agree but I donít think it would be 1 sided. The league would likely have to adjust more but Shaq would too. He would have to get his weight under control because defensives would pull him farther out from the hoop than ever before.

agreed.

LeonFSU
05-30-2019, 06:05 PM
Truly bizarre to me that anyone could wonder if Shaq would start against any team today in his prime. I always thought his defenses weaknesses in his prime were exaggerated anyway since he was clearly conserving energy but did put in the effort when it mattered.

nastynice
05-30-2019, 08:59 PM
Truly bizarre to me that anyone could wonder if Shaq would start against any team today in his prime. I always thought his defenses weaknesses in his prime were exaggerated anyway since he was clearly conserving energy but did put in the effort when it mattered.

I don't think he was ever really defensively weak til later when he got lazy, but I do think the game is played much different now. It's played from the outside in, not the inside out like when Shaq played. Skillets are different now.

goingfor28
05-30-2019, 10:24 PM
Please watch as a refresher if you donít think Shaq would destroy this league.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=O_xZyNihY2M6th man at best today.

That video was awesome. 18 was my favorite.

ewing
05-30-2019, 11:45 PM
6th man at best today.

That video was awesome. 18 was my favorite.

Heís a change of pace guy. You put him in if you want dominate


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