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AllBall
04-09-2019, 01:56 PM
I'm gonna miss Wade on the roster. Hope tonight's last home game they give him the green light to go out shooting! How is this not at least on NBA TV? NBA you slipping!

archdevil84
04-09-2019, 07:42 PM
damn, where the years go man....

warfelg
04-09-2019, 09:09 PM
Anyone see the Budweiser tribute video for him? If you do, Iím not crying. You are.

tp13baby
04-09-2019, 09:12 PM
Anyone see the Budweiser tribute video for him? If you do, Iím not crying. You are.

That was awesome.

Cal827
04-09-2019, 11:16 PM
Good riddance. GTFO of here ***** :laugh2:

Lakers + Giants
04-09-2019, 11:18 PM
Good riddance. GTFO of here ***** :laugh2:

Even though you're being facetious, I'm not.

I agree

Redrum187
04-10-2019, 03:30 PM
Peak wise, Wade is behind Jordan and on par with West (superior peak to Kobe). I can admit he was a great ball player. However, I'm not sad to see him go. The 2006 NBA Finals screw job by the refs is what made me despise him as a player even if it's not directly his fault. We like who we like and despise those who we don't. The 2011 Finals revenge after Wade and LeBron were mocking Dirk being sick removed most of the animosity I had for him. Perhaps over time, I may even grow to somewhat appreciate him.

Bostonjorge
04-10-2019, 05:56 PM
Playoff Wade activated in his last home game. Wade can still play playoff basketball but a 82 game season is to much for him and all his past injuries. Great player and his run with Shaq was my favorite version of Wade. He was a elite 2 way player.

Top 4 SG.

ewing
04-10-2019, 06:21 PM
So overrated


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JAZZNC
04-10-2019, 08:27 PM
Had a great run for a few years but it just seems like he's been mediocre for an eternity. I don't view him in the same light as say Dirk. Really high peak but horrible longevity.

goingfor28
04-10-2019, 09:48 PM
Had a great run for a few years but it just seems like he's been mediocre for an eternity. I don't view him in the same light as say Dirk. Really high peak but horrible longevity.Exactly how I see him

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WaDe03
04-10-2019, 11:07 PM
1116160931480915968

Yea so overrated, ****in clowns. Mavs fans have got to get over 2006, you got cooked by wade and itís just that simple. When you canít come remotely close to staying in front of someone you have to foul. You were up 13 with 6 minutes to go in game 3 and choked. Blame yourselves or blame Wade for being too ****ing good!

YAALREADYKNO
04-11-2019, 02:17 AM
Somebodyís triggered ^

cmellofan15
04-11-2019, 07:17 AM
1116160931480915968

Yea so overrated, ****in clowns. Mavs fans have got to get over 2006, you got cooked by wade and itís just that simple. When you canít come remotely close to staying in front of someone you have to foul. You were up 13 with 6 minutes to go in game 3 and choked. Blame yourselves or blame Wade for being too ****ing good!

Lmao how do you get "cooked" by somebody at the free throw line? Take that ring the refs handed you and be grateful they didn't treat you like the Kings :laugh2:

WaDe03
04-11-2019, 08:08 AM
Lmao how do you get "cooked" by somebody at the free throw line? Take that ring the refs handed you and be grateful they didn't treat you like the Kings :laugh2:

Check the stats he ****in cooked them that simple. Itís wade though so of course weíve got to discredit it and especially the clowns on here have to. ďMy belief is stronger than your doubtĒ is what wade built his career on and which is why heís so great so this is fitting. Enjoy your first playoffs in forever and leave the championship talks to people who knows what it feels like **** boy!

WaDe03
04-11-2019, 08:09 AM
Post video of these phantom calls or shut the **** up.

ewing
04-11-2019, 08:31 AM
Excellent defender and slasher but also the player that benefited most from Stern's paranoia after the malice at the place. Stern was so scare of his league being seen as bunch of thugs that they started calling everything. Wade used his superior speed and strength to get in the lane and then just threw his body at people if they rotated and blindly threw up shots getting rewarded with foul shots

WaDe03
04-11-2019, 09:12 AM
Excellent defender and slasher but also the player that benefited most from Stern's paranoia after the malice at the place. Stern was so scare of his league being seen as bunch of thugs that they started calling everything. Wade used his superior speed and strength to get in the lane and then just threw his body at people if they rotated and blindly threw up shots getting rewarded with foul shots

And yet his most free throw attempts in a season ranks 69th ever with guys currently playing having multiple seasons ahead of him.

cmellofan15
04-11-2019, 10:12 AM
Check the stats he ****in cooked them that simple. Itís wade though so of course weíve got to discredit it and especially the clowns on here have to. ďMy belief is stronger than your doubtĒ is what wade built his career on and which is why heís so great so this is fitting. Enjoy your first playoffs in forever and leave the championship talks to people who knows what it feels like **** boy!

Hahahahahahaha you are the only person dumb enough to brag about CLEARLY the worst officiated Finals ever. 97 free throws in 6 games, 73 in the 4 games the refs gave them; there's your stats, sweetie.

AllBall
04-11-2019, 11:24 AM
Oh PSD, why you so salty? lol

The 04 draft class that changed the league is starting to disappear.

ewing
04-11-2019, 02:38 PM
And yet his most free throw attempts in a season ranks 69th ever with guys currently playing having multiple seasons ahead of him.

So?

WaDe03
04-11-2019, 03:56 PM
Oh PSD, why you so salty? lol

The 04 draft class that changed the league is starting to disappear.

They hate greatness. 03 draft class

WaDe03
04-11-2019, 03:58 PM
So?

So you sound dumb as **** and I hate that coming from you. Heís top 15 ever

WaDe03
04-11-2019, 03:59 PM
Hahahahahahaha you are the only person dumb enough to brag about CLEARLY the worst officiated Finals ever. 97 free throws in 6 games, 73 in the 4 games the refs gave them; there's your stats, sweetie.

They couldnít ****in stay in front of him, go watch the film dumbass. Come talk to me when you get a championship clown.

YAALREADYKNO
04-11-2019, 04:33 PM
Thank you Wade. I hated him in 06 for beating my Mavs but Iíve always respected his game. One of my favorites to watch. Congrats on a Hall Of Fame Career. One of the best to ever do it.

ewing
04-11-2019, 04:35 PM
So you sound dumb as **** and I hate that coming from you. Heís top 15 ever

The shrimp mantis eyes have b//t 12 and 16 different photorecptors while people only have 3. (I can say random things too)

WaDe03
04-11-2019, 04:39 PM
The shrimp mantis eyes have b//t 12 and 16 different photorecptors while people only have 3. (I can say random things too)

My dick is named ďEwingĒ.

cmellofan15
04-11-2019, 04:42 PM
And yet his most free throw attempts in a season ranks 69th ever with guys currently playing having multiple seasons ahead of him.


They couldnít ****in stay in front of him, go watch the film dumbass. Come talk to me when you get a championship clown.

LMAOOOOOOO

You see how these things contradict each other, right? I'll connect the dots for you since it seems like you're having a hard time here, pumpkin...

Guy draws a normal amount of fouls during the season (69th ever by your stats), but somehow draws almost 100 fouls in 6 games? I mean he played 6 games against the (more physical) Pistons the round before and only drew 52 fouls...You need anymore stats cupcake or you sticking to your delusion? :laugh2:

ewing
04-11-2019, 06:11 PM
My dick is named ďEwingĒ.

good choice

Cal827
04-11-2019, 07:11 PM
They hate greatness. 03 draft class

:laugh2: Well I'm being a troll since Wade is one of my favorite players

Man a couple years ago, when Kobe, Duncan, and KG retired in the same off-season.

Now this year we lose Dirk and Wade.... :(

YAALREADYKNO
04-11-2019, 08:35 PM
Who do you guys rank higher? Dirk or Wade?

WaDe03
04-11-2019, 08:42 PM
LMAOOOOOOO

You see how these things contradict each other, right? I'll connect the dots for you since it seems like you're having a hard time here, pumpkin...

Guy draws a normal amount of fouls during the season (69th ever by your stats), but somehow draws almost 100 fouls in 6 games? I mean he played 6 games against the (more physical) Pistons the round before and only drew 52 fouls...You need anymore stats cupcake or you sticking to your delusion? :laugh2:

****in cupcake watch the film and please let me know who could stay in front of him on the Mavs dumbass. The pistons were the top defensive team and actually had good defenders but it didnít matter because Wade ****in ate them alive just like he did the Mavs. That pistons team clamped Kobe btw too.

You finally make the playoffs and think youíre hot **** little guy.

YAALREADYKNO
04-11-2019, 08:44 PM
:laugh2: Well I'm being a troll since Wade is one of my favorite players

Man a couple years ago, when Kobe, Duncan, and KG retired in the same off-season.

Now this year we lose Dirk and Wade.... :(

Crazy to think that VC is the last player standing from 90s

WaDe03
04-11-2019, 08:45 PM
Who do you guys rank higher? Dirk or Wade?

This isnít a good place for a good as most posters here are either trolls, or dumbasses who donít really understand ball and can only tell you things based on a number. Iíd encourage you to go to a bigger board and ask that question.

To keep it simple, id pick Wade by a couple spots and you would pick Dirk by a couple spots but either way theyíre close.

WaDe03
04-11-2019, 08:46 PM
I liked that after their battles and rivalry they exchanged jerseys and have squashed any kind of beef they had, it was one of my favorite jersey swaps of the year. Wade telling dirk thank you for pushing him to be better and for all he did for his career.

cmellofan15
04-11-2019, 09:27 PM
****in cupcake watch the film and please let me know who could stay in front of him on the Mavs dumbass. The pistons were the top defensive team and actually had good defenders but it didnít matter because Wade ****in ate them alive just like he did the Mavs. That pistons team clamped Kobe btw too.

You finally make the playoffs and think youíre hot **** little guy.

This is absolutely pathetic, and I apologize if I hurt your feelings, babe. If you feel like addressing any of the stats YOU requested instead of ducking them and spewing nonsense, have at it. But there's no point using stats, game clips, or anything with you because you just aren't bright.

Keep arguing with yourself tho, it's very entertaining LMAO

WaDe03
04-12-2019, 10:09 AM
This is absolutely pathetic, and I apologize if I hurt your feelings, babe. If you feel like addressing any of the stats YOU requested instead of ducking them and spewing nonsense, have at it. But there's no point using stats, game clips, or anything with you because you just aren't bright.

Keep arguing with yourself tho, it's very entertaining LMAO

Youíre not talking stats little guy, just the hating bs you always spew. **** boy!

Iím much smarter than you about the game of basketball and thatís a ****in fact.

Tg11
04-12-2019, 10:27 AM
Wade 3 rings...how many All Star appearances? How many All NBA First Team appearances? How many DPOY? Either way Wade has to be considered one of the greatest shooting guards of all time especially doing it for 16 years. He came in at the same time as LeBron (2003) and he won his 1st title in his 3rd year (2006) in the league. Wade played with greats that being Shaq, Bosh and LeBron. Hell, Wade in Chicago he wasn't all that bad but then in Cleveland he was average. However, as soon as he came back to Miami we saw flashes of the old Wade. I say Wade made the right decision to retire now as opposed to later.

Hawkeye15
04-12-2019, 10:54 AM
Never really been a huge fan, he was great in his peak, I have seen better come and go.

Later brah

Hawkeye15
04-12-2019, 10:54 AM
I liked that after their battles and rivalry they exchanged jerseys and have squashed any kind of beef they had, it was one of my favorite jersey swaps of the year. Wade telling dirk thank you for pushing him to be better and for all he did for his career.

did you order your pallet of kleenex for his last game?

WaDe03
04-12-2019, 11:52 AM
did you order your pallet of kleenex for his last game?

Yes went back and forth wiping away tears and nut.

WaDe03
04-12-2019, 11:53 AM
The torch has been passed to Jimmy Butler for next year, watch. Go ahead and put this in your sigs so you remember.

Hawkeye15
04-12-2019, 02:06 PM
Yes went back and forth wiping away tears and nut.

hahaha, awesome

Hawkeye15
04-12-2019, 02:07 PM
Who do you guys rank higher? Dirk or Wade?

good question. Dirk's longevity gives him the edge to me. I have him top 20 for sure, while Wade is around 25ish?

Lakers + Giants
04-12-2019, 02:27 PM
good question. Dirk's longevity gives him the edge to me. I have him top 20 for sure, while Wade is around 25ish?

This

WaDe03
04-13-2019, 02:58 PM
Wades closer to 15 than 25 brothers.

Redrum187
04-13-2019, 03:24 PM
So you sound dumb as **** and I hate that coming from you. Heís top 15 ever

:laugh2:

Mind sharing your top 15 list?

Redrum187
04-13-2019, 03:27 PM
Who do you guys rank higher? Dirk or Wade?

I'll go with the MVP quite easily... Wade was a Pippen... He's closer to Pippen than to Dirk in all honesty (which is around top 25'ish).

YAALREADYKNO
04-13-2019, 03:59 PM
Iíll go with Dirk too but just maybe one or two spots ahead. I can understand a case for both players but itís hard to ignore 11 50+ win seasons without another true star along his side after Nash and Finley left in the West where the Spurs and Lakers dominated and always had multiple allstars on there rosters

WaDe03
04-13-2019, 05:52 PM
I'll go with the MVP quite easily... Wade was a Pippen... He's closer to Pippen than to Dirk in all honesty (which is around top 25'ish).

Wade was a pippen? Lmao! Dude has the 2nd greatest finals performance ever behind only LeBron in 2016. He was better than dirk in both finals matchups LeBron just choked the 2011 finals away. I like dirk but Mavs fans just canít get over it lol

WaDe03
04-13-2019, 05:52 PM
:laugh2:

Mind sharing your top 15 list?

Letís make this simple because I only have time to pop in and out right now, where do you rank Jerry West? Wades better.

YAALREADYKNO
04-13-2019, 07:43 PM
Wade was a pippen? Lmao! Dude has the 2nd greatest finals performance ever behind only LeBron in 2016. He was better than dirk in both finals matchups LeBron just choked the 2011 finals away. I like dirk but Mavs fans just canít get over it lol

Nah Dirk had more clutch moments than Wade in 2011

WaDe03
04-14-2019, 10:21 AM
Nah Dirk had more clutch moments than Wade in 2011

We can thank LeBron for that as he was choking his damn life away lol. Wades numbers were a lot better, his impact and efficiency also much higher. Wade was definitely the best player in the series, spo shouldíve sat LeBron if he was choking and went with Wade-bosh-Chalmer-Miller-house

YAALREADYKNO
04-14-2019, 12:48 PM
We can thank LeBron for that as he was choking his damn life away lol. Wades numbers were a lot better, his impact and efficiency also much higher. Wade was definitely the best player in the series, spo shouldíve sat LeBron if he was choking and went with Wade-bosh-Chalmer-Miller-house

Wadeís numbers were nice but Dirk literally hit back to back to back game tying shots or go ahead shots in game 2, hit a shot to put them up 3 with like 14 seconds to go in game 4 while wade missed a late FT which wouldíve tied it and had the game ending turnover, and after Dirk was struggling all of game 6 he had 10 pts in the 4th to pretty much seal the deal. Was 2011 mainly on Lebron? Yes. But Wade wasnít exactly perfect down the stretch either.

Mr.B
04-14-2019, 05:00 PM
We can thank LeBron for that as he was choking his damn life away lol. Wades numbers were a lot better, his impact and efficiency also much higher. Wade was definitely the best player in the series, spo shouldíve sat LeBron if he was choking and went with Wade-bosh-Chalmer-Miller-house

That had more to do with Dirk torching him on one end of the court and Shawn Marion shutting his *** down on the other. The Mavs decided to take away the Heatís best player in that series and no matter how good Wade was, he wasnít enough to win the series by himself.


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WaDe03
04-14-2019, 11:19 PM
Shouldíve went to Wade and not wasted any possessions on LeBron, Iíll leave it at that.

Hawkeye15
04-15-2019, 10:39 AM
Wades closer to 15 than 25 brothers.

nah. His longevity is terrible.

Hawkeye15
04-15-2019, 10:41 AM
We can thank LeBron for that as he was choking his damn life away lol. Wades numbers were a lot better, his impact and efficiency also much higher. Wade was definitely the best player in the series, spo shouldíve sat LeBron if he was choking and went with Wade-bosh-Chalmer-Miller-house

Wade can also thank LeBron for carrying his corpse through a few series the next 2 years..

WaDe03
04-15-2019, 04:51 PM
nah. His longevity is terrible.

Everything else is elite.

WaDe03
04-15-2019, 04:52 PM
Wade can also thank LeBron for carrying his corpse through a few series the next 2 years..

ďWades corpseĒ would get a max contract with those numbers. Good try though. Clearly wasnít himself but he was still very good. 2011-12 he was still elite.

Redrum187
04-15-2019, 05:04 PM
Wade was a pippen? Lmao! Dude has the 2nd greatest finals performance ever behind only LeBron in 2016. He was better than dirk in both finals matchups LeBron just choked the 2011 finals away. I like dirk but Mavs fans just canít get over it lol

You're talking about the finals performance which almost everyone, including many "HEAT" fans admit was terribly officiated in a time that refs were caught betting on games they officiated? Oh, okay. As for more fans, including "HEAT" fans and the refs caught betting, this isn't an opinion, this is fact. The only thing in question is if the 2006 Finals was influenced on any of that...

Having said that, Dirk's 2011 entire postseason was better than ANYTHING LeBron or Wade has done in the postseason... INCLUDING LeBron beating GSW. Dirk was the best player in the world that summer. Peak Wade in 2011 couldn't get the job done even being LeBron's Pippen.

Hawkeye15
04-15-2019, 05:10 PM
The finals performance which almost everyone, including many "HEAT" fans admit was terribly officiated in a time that refs were caught betting on games they officiated. As for more fans, including "HEAT" fans and the refs caught betting, this isn't an opinion, this is fact. The only thing in question is if the 2006 Finals was influenced on any of that...

Having said that, Dirk's 2011 entire postseason was better than ANYTHING LeBron or Wade has done in the postseason... INCLUDING LeBron beating GSW. Dirk was the best player in the world that summer. Peak Wade in 2011 couldn't get the job done even being LeBron's Pippen.

no way dude. Dirk's run was great, but it wasn't even his best playoff run individually, and LeBron has 5-6 playoff runs better.

Redrum187
04-15-2019, 05:37 PM
no way dude. Dirk's run was great, but it wasn't even his best playoff run individually, and LeBron has 5-6 playoff runs better.

Which non 2011 entire postseason of Dirks was best? He went through a really good Blazers team, 2x defending champs, OKC with Durant/Westbrook/Harden/Ibaka, then LeBron/Wade/Bosh. LeBron's best playoff run when he beat the GSW is his greatest. I remember doing a poll on which performance was more impressive and Dirk's 2011 run won out. That doesn't mean much as this is PSD, but I figured it was unquestionable in spite of LeBron's amazing performance.

YAALREADYKNO
04-15-2019, 06:27 PM
Lebron had the better finals but in terms of an entire playoff run? Iíll give the edge to Dirk as well. Competition was tougher and he did it as the lone star. Every team he went up against that year had multiple allstars on it except for Portland i think.

Hawkeye15
04-16-2019, 09:29 AM
yeah you're both wrong haha. LeBron had better runs in 09, 12, 13, 14, 16, and 17. If you are referring the championship runs only, then his 3 runs were all better than Dirk's.

Dirks run was magical, but you guys are glorifying the hell out of it for some reason (probably because he slayed the big bad wolf that year). His 2006 playoff run, he was individually better btw, even if the results weren't the same.

WaDe03
04-16-2019, 09:53 AM
Yíall are dumb as hell lol!

AllBall
04-16-2019, 10:15 AM
PSD Haters Guide

If hate Lebron ------------> Credit Wade for Championships ---------> Credit Wade for 06 Championship and blame Lebron for superteaming ------------> Oh crap, thread is specifically about Wade ---------------> Discredit Wade for Championships and claim it was all because of Lebron ------------------> Discredit Wade for 06 Championships --------------------> Give credit to Dirk ---------------------> Oh crap, thread is specifically about Dirk -----------------> Blame Dirk for 06 finals loss ----------------> Blame Lebron for finals loss.

Hmm, I believe this contradictory logic just about sums it up.

valade16
04-16-2019, 01:50 PM
Wade averaged 28.3 PPG from 05-10 in the playoffs. He was no Pippen.

Wade's 06 playoff run was:

28.4 PPG | 5.9 RPG | 5.6 APG | 26.9 PER | .593 TS% | .240 WS/48 | 8.9 BPM

Dirk's 11 playoff run was:

27.2 PPG | 8.1 RPG | 2.5 APG | 25.2 PER | .609 TS% | .210 WS/48 | 3.8 BPM


Stats don't tell the whole story (Wade had Shaq, Dirk had a team with no true #2 though it was filled with gritty, experienced vets). But it's at least close enough to have a conversation.

Chronz
04-16-2019, 02:57 PM
You're talking about the finals performance which almost everyone, including many "HEAT" fans admit was terribly officiated in a time that refs were caught betting on games they officiated? Oh, okay. As for more fans, including "HEAT" fans and the refs caught betting, this isn't an opinion, this is fact. The only thing in question is if the 2006 Finals was influenced on any of that...

Having said that, Dirk's 2011 entire postseason was better than ANYTHING LeBron or Wade has done in the postseason... INCLUDING LeBron beating GSW. Dirk was the best player in the world that summer. Peak Wade in 2011 couldn't get the job done even being LeBron's Pippen.

It was one ref and they never caught him doing that iirc.

valade16
04-16-2019, 03:20 PM
It was one ref and they never caught him doing that iirc.

I think a statistician ran the numbers on games he'd reffed and found it would be essentially statistically impossible for him to not have influenced the games.

Chronz
04-16-2019, 04:04 PM
I think a statistician ran the numbers on games he'd reffed and found it would be essentially statistically impossible for him to not have influenced the games.

Yeah both the NBA and FBI had their own analysis, pretty sure they charged him with something else

Redrum187
04-16-2019, 04:12 PM
yeah you're both wrong haha. LeBron had better runs in 09, 12, 13, 14, 16, and 17. If you are referring the championship runs only, then his 3 runs were all better than Dirk's.

Dirks run was magical, but you guys are glorifying the hell out of it for some reason (probably because he slayed the big bad wolf that year). His 2006 playoff run, he was individually better btw, even if the results weren't the same.

What measurement do you use to quantify "the better run"?

For me, I use stats, opposition faced, and help in determining an individual postseason. I'm pretty sure LeBron's numbers would be on par or greater than Dirks without having to look at the seasons you listed. As for opposition and help, I'm sorry... Dirk's 2011 wins hands down. LeBron beating GSW was absolutely essential to his legacy. It's where he cemented his place in the top 3 for me personally. He faced some crazy opposition in that finals and won. He beat the crap out of the weak east his entire career... he was doing what he was suppose to do, but we can't pretend those were huge mountains to climb considering he had quite a bit of help...

Redrum187
04-16-2019, 04:16 PM
It was one ref and they never caught him doing that iirc.

Tim Donaghy plead guilty to 2 federal charges in an FBI investigation over refs betting on NBA games. He argued that it was possible to bet on games but officiate objectively. They didn't "catch him" but they did get him to come clean. He made it clear he wasn't the only ref to do so. However, I can't claim that is fact however likely he is telling the truth. Nevertheless, it is a fact he was a crooked ref who claims the 2006 NBA Finals was rigged.

Redrum187
04-16-2019, 04:21 PM
Wade averaged 28.3 PPG from 05-10 in the playoffs. He was no Pippen.

Wade's 06 playoff run was:

28.4 PPG | 5.9 RPG | 5.6 APG | 26.9 PER | .593 TS% | .240 WS/48 | 8.9 BPM

Dirk's 11 playoff run was:

27.2 PPG | 8.1 RPG | 2.5 APG | 25.2 PER | .609 TS% | .210 WS/48 | 3.8 BPM


Stats don't tell the whole story (Wade had Shaq, Dirk had a team with no true #2 though it was filled with gritty, experienced vets). But it's at least close enough to have a conversation.

I can understand why Wade is raging now. lol

There are 2 different meanings of Wade "being a Pippen." One is Wade not being the alpha and best served as a secondary player to a truly alpha player. While Wade was a Pippen to LeBron, this isn't the context I was using. Miami had 2 alphas on that team. Then there is the other meaning of "being a Pippen" where we look at the context I said Wade was a Pippen... I said in the 25'ish range. I meant, Pippen made the top 25, for me, by being such an elite player his entire career and doing it for as long as he did.

Peak Wade was superior to peak Pippen for sure. However, on the all time list, they are pretty close. I even think Peak Wade was better than peak Kobe... I'm not sure if this is as controversial as it use to be to say, but it's nevertheless true. Kobe just takes a big dump on Wade career wise though.

AllBall
04-16-2019, 04:42 PM
It's odd that this turned into a Wade vs. Dirk thread. Also a weird argument at that considering their different positions and their legacy and what their careers represented. I mean Dirk's size and his European background put him in a different category of comparison with a guard from Chicago. :confused::confused::confused:

WaDe03
04-16-2019, 04:55 PM
It's odd that this turned into a Wade vs. Dirk thread. Also a weird argument at that considering their different positions and their legacy and what their careers represented. I mean Dirk's size and his European background put him in a different category of comparison with a guard from Chicago. :confused::confused::confused:

Itís just Mavericks fans being ****in butt hurt wade busted their *** in 06. Youíre up 2-0 in the series and up 13 with 6 minutes left in game 3 and lost, you have no one to blame but yourself.

Iím still waiting for video proof showing me all the phantom fouls and showing me they had anyone who could come remotely close to guarding Wade or even stay in front of him after he completely shredded the best defensive team in the ECF.

ewing
04-16-2019, 08:49 PM
I can understand why Wade is raging now. lol

There are 2 different meanings of Wade "being a Pippen." One is Wade not being the alpha and best served as a secondary player to a truly alpha player. While Wade was a Pippen to LeBron, this isn't the context I was using. Miami had 2 alphas on that team. Then there is the other meaning of "being a Pippen" where we look at the context I said Wade was a Pippen... I said in the 25'ish range. I meant, Pippen made the top 25, for me, by being such an elite player his entire career and doing it for as long as he did.

Peak Wade was superior to peak Pippen for sure. However, on the all time list, they are pretty close. I even think Peak Wade was better than peak Kobe... I'm not sure if this is as controversial as it use to be to say, but it's nevertheless true. Kobe just takes a big dump on Wade career wise though.

Pippen is not anywhere near Wade. your argument saying he was isnít based in reality. Wade literally made twice as many all star games, and finished with much better career numbers. Not only was Wade much better at peaked as you admit he was better at any stage of their careers.


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YAALREADYKNO
04-16-2019, 10:08 PM
I just asked a simple question lmao 😂

YAALREADYKNO
04-16-2019, 10:25 PM
yeah you're both wrong haha. LeBron had better runs in 09, 12, 13, 14, 16, and 17. If you are referring the championship runs only, then his 3 runs were all better than Dirk's.

Dirks run was magical, but you guys are glorifying the hell out of it for some reason (probably because he slayed the big bad wolf that year). His 2006 playoff run, he was individually better btw, even if the results weren't the same.

Nah Dirk faced better competition. That blazers team would work that raptors team and even though the lakers werenít the same lakers as the year before theyíd still work those hawks. That OKC team was better than any team out east that bron faced on his way to the warriors even though they were young but Lebronís 2016 Finals>Dirkís 2011 Finals

AllBall
04-16-2019, 11:40 PM
Itís just Mavericks fans being ****in butt hurt wade busted their *** in 06. Youíre up 2-0 in the series and up 13 with 6 minutes left in game 3 and lost, you have no one to blame but yourself.

Iím still waiting for video proof showing me all the phantom fouls and showing me they had anyone who could come remotely close to guarding Wade or even stay in front of him after he completely shredded the best defensive team in the ECF.

6 pages of tears. 😂 Clearly Dirk was not in the nightmares of any fanbases. Proof: see the pathetic 10 post "Farwell Dirk" thread created....wait for it, ONLY because Wade got a thread, not because of any merit. Trolling used to mean something.

Redrum187
04-17-2019, 06:50 AM
Pippen is not anywhere near Wade. your argument saying he was isnít based in reality. Wade literally made twice as many all star games, and finished with much better career numbers. Not only was Wade much better at peaked as you admit he was better at any stage of their careers.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I think you misunderstood me or misread. I'm saying on the all time scale, Wade is around 25'ish, which is close to where I have Pippen. Of course I think Wade was superior, especially peak wise, but Pippen was sort of an ironman for his career. He put a ton of mileage in his peak, unlike Wade. Wade started breaking down due to injuries which is why I have him and Pippen in that range.

ewing
04-17-2019, 10:42 AM
I think you misunderstood me or misread. I'm saying on the all time scale, Wade is around 25'ish, which is close to where I have Pippen. Of course I think Wade was superior, especially peak wise, but Pippen was sort of an ironman for his career. He put a ton of mileage in his peak, unlike Wade. Wade started breaking down due to injuries which is why I have him and Pippen in that range.

Do you have AC Green around that area b/c he was no where near as good but never missed games too?

Hawkeye15
04-17-2019, 12:32 PM
Nah Dirk faced better competition. That blazers team would work that raptors team and even though the lakers werenít the same lakers as the year before theyíd still work those hawks. That OKC team was better than any team out east that bron faced on his way to the warriors even though they were young but Lebronís 2016 Finals>Dirkís 2011 Finals

what does better competition have anything to do with an individual run? How can you quantify any of it really? Like I said, you guys are glorifying Dirk's run. It was magical for all sorts of reasons, but it's not like Dirk turned into a complete and utter Shaq or LeBron like beast that year. Everything fell into place, he played great, his teammates were very veteran, hungry guys all on the same page, and his roster overperformed big time.

LeBron, individually, has kicked out multiple playoff runs stronger. Easily.

Hawkeye15
04-17-2019, 12:33 PM
I think you misunderstood me or misread. I'm saying on the all time scale, Wade is around 25'ish, which is close to where I have Pippen. Of course I think Wade was superior, especially peak wise, but Pippen was sort of an ironman for his career. He put a ton of mileage in his peak, unlike Wade. Wade started breaking down due to injuries which is why I have him and Pippen in that range.

you have Pippen near 25? Yuck!

Hawkeye15
04-17-2019, 12:34 PM
Pippen is not anywhere near Wade. your argument saying he was isnít based in reality. Wade literally made twice as many all star games, and finished with much better career numbers. Not only was Wade much better at peaked as you admit he was better at any stage of their careers.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

yeah honestly Wade's longevity is the only thing keeping him out of the top 15. In his peak, he was better than Kobe, but by age 30, he just hit the tank man. Had some nice stretches after here and there, but his 2 chips with Miami, he had stretches where he was a total embarrassment to his old self. Not his fault, his body wasn't cooperating, but from 04-11', he was awesome dude. And had really good levels of play after that, just not consistently.

ewing
04-17-2019, 01:26 PM
you have Pippen near 25? Yuck!

that's where his argument falls apart

R. Johnson#3
04-17-2019, 01:35 PM
All these comparisons between Dirk and Wade are silly. They both had illustrious careers but only one had to use a wheelchair for a shoulder injury.

WaDe03
04-17-2019, 01:41 PM
All these comparisons between Dirk and Wade are silly. They both had illustrious careers but only one had to use a wheelchair for a shoulder injury.

Shut your ****in mouth, both are more historic than the Raptors.

R. Johnson#3
04-17-2019, 01:55 PM
Shut your ****in mouth, both are more historic than the Raptors.

We also have never had to bring a wheelchair on the court.

YAALREADYKNO
04-17-2019, 03:22 PM
what does better competition have anything to do with an individual run? How can you quantify any of it really? Like I said, you guys are glorifying Dirk's run. It was magical for all sorts of reasons, but it's not like Dirk turned into a complete and utter Shaq or LeBron like beast that year. Everything fell into place, he played great, his teammates were very veteran, hungry guys all on the same page, and his roster overperformed big time.

LeBron, individually, has kicked out multiple playoff runs stronger. Easily.

Umm because that means itís harder to overcome lol look at Durantís past two finals. They were highly impressive but people still donít wanna give him full credit because of the ďcompetitionĒ. Everybody knew bron was gonna beat the pistons, hawks, raptors. How many people seriously thought a Dirk led team could get by let alone sweep the back to back champs in the lakers? 90% of people outside of laker haters and dallas fans probably thought the lakers were gonna win. Against OKC Dirk literally kept that series from being 2-2 instead of 3-1 and then to knock off 3 prime superstars was just the icing on the cake.

Hawkeye15
04-17-2019, 03:31 PM
Umm because that means itís harder to overcome lol look at Durantís past two finals. They were highly impressive but people still donít wanna give him full credit because of the ďcompetitionĒ. Everybody knew bron was gonna beat the pistons, hawks, raptors. How many people seriously thought a Dirk led team could get by let alone sweep the back to back champs in the lakers? 90% of people outside of laker haters and dallas fans probably thought the lakers were gonna win. Against OKC Dirk literally kept that series from being 2-2 instead of 3-1 and then to knock off 3 prime superstars was just the icing on the cake.

and why did we all know LeBron was going to beat them? Well, the answer is because he is one of the best 2 players ever, and those guys are nearly impossible to beat.

You can dress it up however you like, Dirk has never put forth an individual playoff run that matches up with a typical LeBron playoff run, let alone his better ones.

Durant gets minimal credit because we know for a fact his team didn't need him to win titles.

AllBall
04-17-2019, 03:39 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFUfv475SC8

WaDe03
04-17-2019, 03:42 PM
We also have never had to bring a wheelchair on the court.

Never had to have a ring ceremony on the court either.

WaDe03
04-17-2019, 03:45 PM
Durant has 0 rings in my mind. Couldnít until the odds were stacked in his favor a way theyíve never been stacked in someoneís favor before. Idc what numbers he puts up next to 3-4 othe rall nba guys and the 2 best shooters ever while defenses canít help or scheme their defense around stopping him.

But thats a discussion for another time, this thread is about Wades greatness.

valade16
04-17-2019, 03:56 PM
and why did we all know LeBron was going to beat them? Well, the answer is because he is one of the best 2 players ever, and those guys are nearly impossible to beat.

You can dress it up however you like, Dirk has never put forth an individual playoff run that matches up with a typical LeBron playoff run, let alone his better ones.

Durant gets minimal credit because we know for a fact his team didn't need him to win titles.

LOL. Using the argument "LeBron was so good we knew he'd win" is a bad argument when trying to argue somebody else was better than him.

Hawkeye15
04-17-2019, 04:10 PM
LOL. Using the argument "LeBron was so good we knew he'd win" is a bad argument when trying to argue somebody else was better than him.

Dirk's run was awesome man, he slayed the dragon, his veteran laced team overachieved, and it all came together. But my god, it's being put on a pedestal it shouldn't. Dirk was better in the 06' run that his team caved in, and frankly, he was never the impact player LeBron was, so not even sure how those 2 got roped in together here. It's not a crime to not have playoff runs on LeBron, or MJ level haha

Hawkeye15
04-17-2019, 04:11 PM
Durant has 0 rings in my mind. Couldnít until the odds were stacked in his favor a way theyíve never been stacked in someoneís favor before. Idc what numbers he puts up next to 3-4 othe rall nba guys and the 2 best shooters ever while defenses canít help or scheme their defense around stopping him.

But thats a discussion for another time, this thread is about Wades greatness.

I recognize his rings, but they mean nothing to me as far as his legacy is concerned. I imagine over time the context will die down a lot, but most will never forget his cowardice.

ewing
04-17-2019, 04:23 PM
LOL. Using the argument "LeBron was so good we knew he'd win" is a bad argument when trying to argue somebody else was better than him.

valid or not I think the argument was actually based on the teams he played being bad

Hawkeye15
04-17-2019, 04:59 PM
valid or not I think the argument was actually based on the teams he played being bad

I so wish LeBron had been out west his whole career, and enjoyed the luxury of not having to carry teams. It's a double sided argument dude. If the west is soooooooooooooooooooooo much better, his path out west would have been far less tiring, due to better players on his team, right?

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter. Magic Johnson isn't penalized for playing against worse competition during his career than LeBron did conference wise, and I really just never got the argument. You have to beat the teams in front of you, LeBron did, many times by himself essentially.

YAALREADYKNO
04-17-2019, 05:51 PM
and why did we all know LeBron was going to beat them? Well, the answer is because he is one of the best 2 players ever, and those guys are nearly impossible to beat.

You can dress it up however you like, Dirk has never put forth an individual playoff run that matches up with a typical LeBron playoff run, let alone his better ones.

Durant gets minimal credit because we know for a fact his team didn't need him to win titles.

Lol nobody is saying Dirk is better than Lebron. Iím simply putting Dirks run in 11 vs Lebronís in 16. As you said, everybody expected Lebron to at least reach the finals. Nobody expected Dirk to do what he did and thank you for making my point about Durant. People give him little to no credit because of what? Competition. So obviously it does matter LMAO

Redrum187
04-17-2019, 05:57 PM
you have Pippen near 25? Yuck!

that's where his argument falls apart

1.) Michael Jordan
2.) LeBron James
3.) Shaq
4.) Wilt
5.) KAJ
6.) Hakeem
7.) Duncan
8.) Kobe
9.) Bird
10.) Magic
11.) Oscar
12.) West
13.) Moses
14.) Robinson
15.) Dirk
16.) Barkley
17.) Garnett
18.) Curry
19.) Durant
20.) Erving
21.) Malone
22.) Russell
23.) Wade
24.) Stockton
25.) CP3
26.) Ewing
27.) Pippen
28.) Drexler
29.) Nash
30.) Kidd

I hope I didn't miss anyone accidentally. Now then, you don't have to have what I have for the All Time list, but is this really terrible having Wade at 23 and Pippen at 27? The point I said in my original post is that Wade is closer to Pippen than to Dirk. If this was a PEAK All Time list, Wade would garner more respect.

If this is "yuck", where would you rank Pippen? How far off from 27 is he from you?

Redrum187
04-17-2019, 06:01 PM
Do you have AC Green around that area b/c he was no where near as good but never missed games too?

I have AC Green right before Ewing. JK <3

Pippen is being underrated if we marginalize him to AC Green. :( I'm in the camp that thinks Pippen was held down by Jordan (in terms of being a true alpha like Wade). It's fine to disagree, but this is all speculative.

Redrum187
04-17-2019, 06:05 PM
that's where his argument falls apart

And this is where your argument falls apart...


... Wade literally made twice as many all star games...

If you want to offer additional supportive reasoning for why Pippen and Wade aren't close together, please look at my list and make adjustments to show the distinction between them. How far away are they for you?

Redrum187
04-17-2019, 06:11 PM
what does better competition have anything to do with an individual run? How can you quantify any of it really? Like I said, you guys are glorifying Dirk's run. It was magical for all sorts of reasons, but it's not like Dirk turned into a complete and utter Shaq or LeBron like beast that year. Everything fell into place, he played great, his teammates were very veteran, hungry guys all on the same page, and his roster overperformed big time.

LeBron, individually, has kicked out multiple playoff runs stronger. Easily.

What in the actual f---? lol

So if Anthony Davis gets traded for Cousins and the Warriors resign Durant to face a junior high school basketball team, we should treat that with the same reverence as the Warriors playing an NBA team?

Hell, even if Cousins, Durant, AND Davis died... the Warriors beating a junior high team is meaningful? "What does better competition have to do with anything" ... right? :confused:

On a final note, it's not "glorifying" Dirk's run to put into context the adversity he faced in his championship run. You would assume ALL championships are equal. Durant joining a 72 win team and winning the championship that year on an unprecedented stacked team is the equivalent of Dirk winning in 2011 being the only All Star on his team... Okay... this is where we have to agree to disagree.

YAALREADYKNO
04-17-2019, 06:20 PM
What in the actual f---? lol

So if Anthony Davis gets traded for Cousins and the Warriors resign Durant to face a junior high school basketball team, we should treat that with the same reverence as the Warriors playing an NBA team?

Hell, even if Cousins, Durant, AND Davis died... the Warriors beating a junior high team is meaningful? "What does better competition have to do with anything" ... right? :confused:

On a final note, it's not "glorifying" Dirk's run to put into context the adversity he faced in his championship run. You would assume ALL championships are equal. Durant joining a 72 win team and winning the championship that year on an unprecedented stacked team is the equivalent of Dirk winning in 2011 being the only All Star on his team... Okay... this is where we have to agree to disagree.

LMAO thought the same thing when I read the point about competition. If it didnít matter then why hold it against Durant for winning back to back? Competition is exactly as to why people give Durant little to no credit at all😂 debate done lol

Redrum187
04-17-2019, 06:21 PM
and why did we all know LeBron was going to beat them? Well, the answer is because he is one of the best 2 players ever, and those guys are nearly impossible to beat.

You can dress it up however you like, Dirk has never put forth an individual playoff run that matches up with a typical LeBron playoff run, let alone his better ones.

Durant gets minimal credit because we know for a fact his team didn't need him to win titles.

Brah... I'm confused... I am responding to posts as I read them in order... I could have sworn you said "what does better competition have anything to do with an individual run?"... and now you're saying Durant gets minimal credit BECAUSE he faced minimal competition. Which is it?!? :speechless:

Do you not see your contradiction?

ewing
04-17-2019, 06:22 PM
I have AC Green right before Ewing. JK <3

Pippen is being underrated if we marginalize him to AC Green. :( I'm in the camp that thinks Pippen was held down by Jordan (in terms of being a true alpha like Wade). It's fine to disagree, but this is all speculative.

Its not speculative. He is a 7 time all star that finished averaging 16 and 6 for his career. He was not a good offensive player in the half court, performed poorly in crunch time, and his production and efficiency generally went down in the playoffs. we are in the age of the versatile wing now and Pippen was a prototype in many ways on both sides of the ball when it come to versatile wings plus and ESPN has inflated Scottie to push "the LeBron debate" but he was just wasn't in the Wade ball park. Wade is a 13 time all star, an MVP level player, a guy that not only stepped up in the playoffs and at crunch time but who carried teams. Wade was significantly better at the beginning, middle, and and of there careers.

Redrum187
04-17-2019, 06:29 PM
Its not speculative. He is a 7 time all star that finished averaging 16 and 6 for his career. He was not a good offensive player in the half court, performed poorly in crunch time, and his production and efficiency generally went down in the playoffs. we are in the age of the versatile wing now and Pippen was a prototype in many ways on both sides of the ball when it come to versatile wings plus and ESPN has inflated Scottie to push "the LeBron debate" but he was just wasn't in the Wade ball park. Wade is a 13 time all star, an MVP level player, a guy that not only stepped up in the playoffs and at crunch time but who carried teams. Wade was significantly better at the beginning, middle, and and of there careers.

I meant Pippen being held down from being an alpha is speculative. As for everything you wrote, I don't entirely disagree. Probably agree more than I disagree, which is why I have Wade a few spots before Pippen.

Now then... since Pippen being 25'ish was nuts... where do you rank him? Was my list terrible?

ewing
04-17-2019, 06:39 PM
1.) Michael Jordan
2.) LeBron James
3.) Shaq
4.) Wilt
5.) KAJ
6.) Hakeem
7.) Duncan
8.) Kobe
9.) Bird
10.) Magic
11.) Oscar
12.) West
13.) Moses
14.) Robinson
15.) Dirk
16.) Barkley
17.) Garnett
18.) Curry
19.) Durant
20.) Erving
21.) Malone
22.) Russell
23.) Wade
24.) Stockton
25.) CP3
26.) Ewing
27.) Pippen
28.) Drexler
29.) Nash
30.) Kidd

I hope I didn't miss anyone accidentally. Now then, you don't have to have what I have for the All Time list, but is this really terrible having Wade at 23 and Pippen at 27? The point I said in my original post is that Wade is closer to Pippen than to Dirk. If this was a PEAK All Time list, Wade would garner more respect.

If this is "yuck", where would you rank Pippen? How far off from 27 is he from you?


You have like 2 guys that pre-date Magic/Bird? Even post Magic - Isiah Thomas, Kevin McHale, Reggie Miller, Pau Gasol, Grant Hill, Manu, Paul Perice, James harden, and Curry all rate higher then Pippen IMO. Pippen somewhere b/t 50-100

ewing
04-17-2019, 06:41 PM
I meant Pippen being held down from being an alpha is speculative. As for everything you wrote, I don't entirely disagree. Probably agree more than I disagree, which is why I have Wade a few spots before Pippen.

Now then... since Pippen being 25'ish was nuts... where do you rank him? Was my list terrible?

Sorry I was writing my other post when I saw this. I don't have him near 25 but you also left out guys like Bob Cousy. I don't normally talk about those guys b/c I never saw them but if you are going to call something an all time list. Willis Reed, John Havlicek etc need to be there

Redrum187
04-17-2019, 06:48 PM
You have like 2 guys that pre-date Magic/Bird? Even post Magic - Isiah Thomas, Kevin McHale, Reggie Miller, Pau Gasol, Grant Hill, Manu, Paul Perice, James harden, and Curry all rate higher then Pippen IMO. Pippen somewhere b/t 50-100

I think you're getting PEAK mixed up with career placement... Pippen has a much better career... 6 championships, arguably the greatest wing defender at the time...

Grant Hill hardly had a peak. Pau Gasol is not on Pippens level... that's "yuck" to me honestly. Paul Pierce was a really good player, better at scoring than Pippen for sure... nevertheless, I'd take Pippen WITHOUT question over Pierce. Manu is in my top 5 favorite players of all time, but I'd be a blind homer if I said he was better than Pippen. I don't know if you're trolling me or if you really think these players had better careers...

I do think James Harden will eventually replace Pippen. He's doing crazy things, even if he isn't winning any rings. So I can give you Harden and not argue. IT... I'm not a fan of him, like at all. I won't put up a huge fight if you pick IT over Pippen, but that isn't something I'd ever consider if given the option.

I don't mean to be a dick... but I want to see an actual post where you correct my top 30... some of your players are honestly nuts... yet I'm being told Pippen being 25'ish is where I lose my argument and "yuck"... I'm not going to let it go... lol

[One more thing: you listed Curry and I listed him at 18.]

Redrum187
04-17-2019, 06:51 PM
Sorry I was writing my other post when I saw this. I don't have him near 25 but you also left out guys like Bob Cousy. I don't normally talk about those guys b/c I never saw them but if you are going to call something an all time list. Willis Reed, John Havlicek etc need to be there

I left them off intentionally. They would get destroyed in today's league. I would never put anyone you listed near Pippen or Wade... it would be disrespecting them as players. Perhaps they contributed in intangibles to the game of basketball, but to pretend like their complete career is superior would be pure fantasy

ewing
04-17-2019, 06:57 PM
I think you're getting PEAK mixed up with career placement... Pippen has a much better career... 6 championships, arguably the greatest wing defender at the time...

Grant Hill hardly had a peak. Pau Gasol is not on Pippens level... that's "yuck" to me honestly. Paul Pierce was a really good player, better at scoring than Pippen for sure... nevertheless, I'd take Pippen WITHOUT question over Pierce. Manu is in my top 5 favorite players of all time, but I'd be a blind homer if I said he was better than Pippen. I don't know if you're trolling me or if you really think these players had better careers...

I do think James Harden will eventually replace Pippen. He's doing crazy things, even if he isn't winning any rings. So I can give you Harden and not argue. IT... I'm not a fan of him, like at all. I won't put up a huge fight if you pick IT over Pippen, but that isn't something I'd ever consider if given the option.

I don't mean to be a dick... but I want to see an actual post where you correct my top 30... some of your players are honestly nuts... yet I'm being told Pippen being 25'ish is where I lose my argument and "yuck"... I'm not going to let it go... lol

[One more thing: you listed Curry and I listed him at 18.]

If a get around to it all make a list for you but i'm not trolling you. Pippen was a second tier star in his prime whose game dipped in the post season. I'm not trolling you. Is your opinion of Pippen is based on a narrative or did you actually watched his career? Scottie was actually one of the most highly criticized picks when they did the first 50 greatest of all time and we know more guys have made there way onto the list since then yet somehow people that never watched him play often have him rated higher now.

ewing
04-17-2019, 06:59 PM
I left them off intentionally. They would get destroyed in today's league. I would never put anyone you listed near Pippen or Wade... it would be disrespecting them as players. Perhaps they contributed in intangibles to the game of basketball, but to pretend like their complete career is superior would be pure fantasy

then I wont brother responding to your request for an all time list b/c you didn't make one either

beasted86
04-17-2019, 07:06 PM
Wade and Dirk are both legends and top 50 all-time even on the haters lists.

But trying to be as objective as possible...at any point in his career was Dirk even passable as average on defense? There are multiple aspects of the game aside from just scoring. Dirk never even averaged 4 assists in his career despite a high usage over decades.

Look, Dirk's an awesome player and so unique I don't think we'll ever find another player like him, while I feel there are multiple players in Wade's mold. But end of the day there's a reason most people consider Wade the 3rd or 4th best SG, while Dirk the 4th or 5th PF. Wade has always had a slight edge on Dirk. The accolades support my position as well with Wade being more rounded.

Redrum187
04-17-2019, 09:59 PM
then I wont brother responding to your request for an all time list b/c you didn't make one either

I did an All Time list... you quoted my list. lol I'm saying your ancient players don't make the cut of top 30.

Jumping Joe Fulks may have been the player of his day, but I'm not going to say he's top 25 or even top 300 players of all time.

WaDe03
04-17-2019, 10:00 PM
https://www.instagram.com/p/BwYL_vkl9lU/?utm_source=ig_share_sheet&igshid=wxm24gkvtchg

The haters better be thankful Wade got injured in the ECF and the year after his first championship or heíd have 2 more rings, 2 more finals MVPs a 3 peat a regular season MVP (which he wouldíve taken from Dirk). Heíd be top 10 all time at worst. The video above is just his second year in the league. Through their first 4 years he was on the fast track to being even better and more accomplished than LeBron! Prove me wrong mfers!!!!

WaDe03
04-17-2019, 10:00 PM
Great point beasted, wade was elite on both sides of the court while dirk was only elite on one.

WaDe03
04-17-2019, 10:07 PM
1. Jordan
2. LeBron
3. KAJ
4. Wilt
5. Shaq
6. Magic
7. Bird
8. Duncan
9. Kobe
10. Hakeem

Thatís my top 10.

Next tier

Oscar
Moses
Wade

Robinson
West
Russell

Dirk
Dr J
KG
Malone
Barkley

Wade has the peak accolades championships all time clutch gene and elite 2 way play to back this.

Redrum187
04-17-2019, 10:14 PM
Wade and Dirk are both legends and top 50 all-time even on the haters lists.

But trying to be as objective as possible...at any point in his career was Dirk even passable as average on defense? There are multiple aspects of the game aside from just scoring. Dirk never even averaged 4 assists in his career despite a high usage over decades.

Look, Dirk's an awesome player and so unique I don't think we'll ever find another player like him, while I feel there are multiple players in Wade's mold. But end of the day there's a reason most people consider Wade the 3rd or 4th best SG, while Dirk the 4th or 5th PF. Wade has always had a slight edge on Dirk. The accolades support my position as well with Wade being more rounded.

Bahahaha... because he's White he sucks defensively... I get the exhausted narrative. Dirk was an above average defender for the majority of his career. I don't even like defensive advanced stats, but they along with the eye test help support that Dirk became an above average defender in his prime.

As for Dirk being 4th or 5th best PF? Really? I think more people consider him 2nd best PF behind Duncan, who many argue should be listed as a center (played more time there). Wade never even won MVP... Couldn't beat Dirk in 2011 with the 2nd greatest player in the world and a top 15 player in the NBA... It's a safe margin that Dirk has Wade. It's not that Wade sucks, it's more that Dirk was just better.

If you want to marginalize Dirk as being 4th or 5th best PF, then how much worse does it make Wade look knowing he couldn't beat him with the help of the 2nd greatest player of all time? =/

Redrum187
04-17-2019, 10:25 PM
1. Jordan
2. LeBron
3. KAJ
4. Wilt
5. Shaq
6. Magic
7. Bird
8. Duncan
9. Kobe
10. Hakeem

Thatís my top 10.

Next tier

Oscar
Moses
Wade

Robinson
West
Russell

Dirk
Dr J
KG
Malone
Barkley

Wade has the peak accolades championships all time clutch gene and elite 2 way play to back this.

Oh, I didn't know he was MVP. My bad. I guess he really does have all the peak accolades.

WaDe03
04-17-2019, 10:30 PM
Oh, I didn't know he was MVP. My bad. I guess he really does have all the peak accolades.

Shouldíve won in 08-09 and wouldíve won 06-07 and taken it from dirk had he not got injured 50 games in.

I shouldíve used commas I didnít mean peak accolades I meant peak, accolades, etc

WaDe03
04-17-2019, 10:32 PM
Bahahaha... because he's White he sucks defensively... I get the exhausted narrative. Dirk was an above average defender for the majority of his career. I don't even like defensive advanced stats, but they along with the eye test help support that Dirk became an above average defender in his prime.

As for Dirk being 4th or 5th best PF? Really? I think more people consider him 2nd best PF behind Duncan, who many argue should be listed as a center (played more time there). Wade never even won MVP... Couldn't beat Dirk in 2011 with the 2nd greatest player in the world and a top 15 player in the NBA... It's a safe margin that Dirk has Wade. It's not that Wade sucks, it's more that Dirk was just better.

If you want to marginalize Dirk as being 4th or 5th best PF, then how much worse does it make Wade look knowing he couldn't beat him with the help of the 2nd greatest player of all time? =/

Nobody said because heís white donít bring that ******** in here.

Theyíre 1-1 in the finals, lucky for dirk his teammates stepped up big time while Wades dicks shriveled up. Wade outplayed him in both by a wide margin.

YAALREADYKNO
04-17-2019, 10:42 PM
Nobody said because heís white donít bring that ******** in here.

Theyíre 1-1 in the finals, lucky for dirk his teammates stepped up big time while Wades dicks shriveled up. Wade outplayed him in both by a wide margin.

How did Wade out play Dirk in 2011 when it was Dirk making most the clutch plays for the Mavs while Wade was missing a key FT and turning the ball over? I get Lebron had the biggest choke job of any superstar ever but Wade was no where to be found down the stretch in a lot of those games as well.

WaDe03
04-17-2019, 11:08 PM
How did Wade out play Dirk in 2011 when it was Dirk making most the clutch plays for the Mavs while Wade was missing a key FT and turning the ball over? I get Lebron had the biggest choke job of any superstar ever but Wade was no where to be found down the stretch in a lot of those games as well.

THey give give Wade Lebrons possessions in the 4th and itís over.

Wade has better numbers was far More efficient and had Moreno impact defensively. You go back and watch that series you see Wade was the best player in the world. Iíd argue the help around dirk had Moreno impact than dirk himself. Dirkms numbers were nothing special but his guys stepped up big and they had the DPOY too right?

YAALREADYKNO
04-17-2019, 11:22 PM
THey give give Wade Lebrons possessions in the 4th and itís over.

Wade has better numbers was far More efficient and had Moreno impact defensively. You go back and watch that series you see Wade was the best player in the world. Iíd argue the help around dirk had Moreno impact than dirk himself. Dirkms numbers were nothing special but his guys stepped up big and they had the DPOY too right?

The Heat literally had more Rebounds, Assists, Steals, And Blocks than the Mavs lol If wade saw how ineffective Bron was then why didnít he demand the ball and takeover? He did it in 06. All the games were close and it came down to Dirk out playing both Miami superstars in Wade and Lebron. The Heat were up 15 game 2 until the Mavs came back. Where was wade in that stretch? Already mentioned the missed FT which wouldíve tied it and the game ending turnover he had in game 4. Where was he game 6? In each of those same games Dirk hit 3 back to back to back shots to tie the game and then to give the Mavs the lead in game 2 and scoring the Mavs final 9pts or something like that. Game 4 he makes a layup to put them up 3 with 11-12 seconds to go and in game 6 he struggles all game and then scores 10pts in the 4th to pretty much close out the series. Look at numbers all you want. We all saw Dirk outplay everybody on both teams including Wade in the clutch that series. And no Chandler won DPOY with the Knicks the following year with Melo and Amare.

WaDe03
04-17-2019, 11:49 PM
The Heat literally had more Rebounds, Assists, Steals, And Blocks than the Mavs lol If wade saw how ineffective Bron was then why didnít he demand the ball and takeover? He did it in 06. All the games were close and it came down to Dirk out playing both Miami superstars in Wade and Lebron. The Heat were up 15 game 2 until the Mavs came back. Where was wade in that stretch? Already mentioned the missed FT which wouldíve tied it and the game ending turnover he had in game 4. Where was he game 6? In each of those same games Dirk hit 3 back to back to back shots to tie the game and then to give the Mavs the lead in game 2 and scoring the Mavs final 9pts or something like that. Game 4 he makes a layup to put them up 3 with 11-12 seconds to go and in game 6 he struggles all game and then scores 10pts in the 4th to pretty much close out the series. Look at numbers all you want. We all saw Dirk outplay everybody on both teams including Wade in the clutch that series. And no Chandler won DPOY with the Knicks the following year with Melo and Amare.

Wades teammates crumbled and Dirks excelled. Wade did demand the ball from LeBron thereís video of him going off on LeBron for not giving him the ball. Outside of the big 3 the heat had no one that year, LeBron tucked his tail and bosh was decent I guess. Terry Stevenson chandler Marion Kidd etc all played very good. Dirks supoort is much better than you all are trying to make it seem. ESPN ranks Wades 2011 finals at the 21st best final performance ever ahead of Dirks and 2006 at 1st. They have a list of top 50 playoff runs Dirks on it once at number 49 for 2006. It wasnít as special as you all are trying to make it seem.

WaDe03
04-17-2019, 11:50 PM
if Weíre just going to rank guys on clutch plays then Wades top 5 ever.

Redrum187
04-18-2019, 01:50 AM
Wades teammates crumbled and Dirks excelled. Wade did demand the ball from LeBron thereís video of him going off on LeBron for not giving him the ball. Outside of the big 3 the heat had no one that year, LeBron tucked his tail and bosh was decent I guess. Terry Stevenson chandler Marion Kidd etc all played very good. Dirks supoort is much better than you all are trying to make it seem. ESPN ranks Wades 2011 finals at the 21st best final performance ever ahead of Dirks and 2006 at 1st. They have a list of top 50 playoff runs Dirks on it once at number 49 for 2006. It wasnít as special as you all are trying to make it seem.

I mean yeah... you're sort of making the point even clearer. Dirk's skillset made his teammates better than they were individually. You're talking about Dirk's help as if HE was the one who had the 2nd greatest player of All Time and a top 15 player in the NBA on his squad. :laugh: Dirk did more with less... you're sort of conceding to this point in your post.

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/23651740/ranking-50-greatest-individual-postseasons-modern-nba-history

Fake news brah... Kevin Pelton ranked Wade's 2006 performance at 15... Unless you're using some other ESPN writer's opinion... In any event, it's one dude's opinion. I can find plenty of people's opinions who feel differently... big deal.

Bostonjorge
04-18-2019, 03:34 AM
Wade is over Oscar. Westbrook has passed Oscar and Westbrook wishes he had Wades accomplishments.

No way Wade is under Oscar. We need to rank these player accordingly. Shaq/Dream over Wilt/KAJ.

ewing
04-18-2019, 05:30 AM
I did an All Time list... you quoted my list. lol I'm saying your ancient players don't make the cut of top 30.

Jumping Joe Fulks may have been the player of his day, but I'm not going to say he's top 25 or even top 300 players of all time.

Some guys from the 1990 would translate well to todayís game and some guys would not, same is true with the 1970s. Your list reads like basketball was invented in 1980. It not an all time list. Anyway, what makes you think Scottie would have been better without Micheal- his playoff inefficiency, his playoff migraines, him sitting himself for the final play in 93, his all time chock job in Portland, his inability to score in the half court? He lost in the 2nd round of the playoffs once without MJ, big deal
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

YAALREADYKNO
04-18-2019, 07:37 AM
Wades teammates crumbled and Dirks excelled. Wade did demand the ball from LeBron thereís video of him going off on LeBron for not giving him the ball. Outside of the big 3 the heat had no one that year, LeBron tucked his tail and bosh was decent I guess. Terry Stevenson chandler Marion Kidd etc all played very good. Dirks supoort is much better than you all are trying to make it seem. ESPN ranks Wades 2011 finals at the 21st best final performance ever ahead of Dirks and 2006 at 1st. They have a list of top 50 playoff runs Dirks on it once at number 49 for 2006. It wasnít as special as you all are trying to make it seem.

How do you not have anybody else on the squad outside of the big 3 yet the heat had more rebounds, blocks, assists, and steals than the Mavs? It came down to the superstars making plays down the stretch and Dirk made more than Wade and Lebron. You cant just go off the Lebron excuse forever to cover for Wade not coming through down the stretch in that series either. Also ESPN has Dirk ranked at 17 and Wade at 27 In their top 100 all time rankings list if weíre using ESPN to justify things now.

WaDe03
04-18-2019, 08:25 AM
I mean yeah... you're sort of making the point even clearer. Dirk's skillset made his teammates better than they were individually. You're talking about Dirk's help as if HE was the one who had the 2nd greatest player of All Time and a top 15 player in the NBA on his squad. :laugh: Dirk did more with less... you're sort of conceding to this point in your post.

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/23651740/ranking-50-greatest-individual-postseasons-modern-nba-history

Fake news brah... Kevin Pelton ranked Wade's 2006 performance at 15... Unless you're using some other ESPN writer's opinion... In any event, it's one dude's opinion. I can find plenty of people's opinions who feel differently... big deal.

Thatís postseason runs not finals performances.....

WaDe03
04-18-2019, 08:26 AM
Wade is over Oscar. Westbrook has passed Oscar and Westbrook wishes he had Wades accomplishments.

No way Wade is under Oscar. We need to rank these player accordingly. Shaq/Dream over Wilt/KAJ.

I agree Wade is better than Oscar

WaDe03
04-18-2019, 08:32 AM
How do you not have anybody else on the squad outside of the big 3 yet the heat had more rebounds, blocks, assists, and steals than the Mavs? It came down to the superstars making plays down the stretch and Dirk made more than Wade and Lebron. You cant just go off the Lebron excuse forever to cover for Wade not coming through down the stretch in that series either. Also ESPN has Dirk ranked at 17 and Wade at 27 In their top 100 all time rankings list if weíre using ESPN to justify things now.

The guy who made that list is a dumbass, strictly numbers only guy. That 2011 supporting cast was **** and you know it. Best players in that series in order:

Wade
Dirk
Terry
Marion
Chandler
Bosh
LeBron

Wades numbers efficiency and impact that series completely ***** on Dirks by then way. Mavs were a +0 with Dirk on the court, the Heat were a +15 with Wade on the court. Miami lost the series in the minutes Wade was on the bench. Shouldíve played him all 48.

R. Johnson#3
04-18-2019, 08:37 AM
Never had to have a ring ceremony on the court either.

True but then again we never had Shaq or Lebron to lead our team to the promised land.

WaDe03
04-18-2019, 08:41 AM
True but then again we never had Shaq or Lebron to lead our team to the promised land.

Good try brother, Wade was Miamiís best player the second Shaq got there.

R. Johnson#3
04-18-2019, 08:45 AM
Good try brother, Wade was Miamiís best player the second Shaq got there.

Yeah thatís why Wade was a 1st round exit every year after Shaq left until Lebron arrived. Oh and then Dirk beat both of them.

R. Johnson#3
04-18-2019, 08:49 AM
Just face it, your boy needed to be in somebodies shadow in order to win rings. He was never THE guy on any of his championship teams. When he didnít have Shaq or Lebron he had to rely on the refs.

WaDe03
04-18-2019, 08:53 AM
Yeah thatís why Wade was a 1st round exit every year after Shaq left until Lebron arrived. Oh and then Dirk beat both of them.

Yea look at his supporting cast and who he had to play against genius. And it was 2 seasons lmao. Wade was at no point in time in Shaqs shadow and was easily better than Leshrivleddick in the 2011 finals.

But I know youíre trolling, I honestly feel bad for you that you donít even know what it feels like to have your team in the finals let alone in the championship. Lucky for you Wade didnít have Bosh and Whiteside in 2016 when he took yíall to 7 single handedly pretty much. Probably wouldíve beat the Cavs that year too.

WaDe03
04-18-2019, 09:03 AM
1117264587668246528

If this is your franchise PG donít come at me talkin out the side of your neck.

beasted86
04-18-2019, 09:12 AM
Bahahaha... because he's White he sucks defensively... I get the exhausted narrative. Dirk was an above average defender for the majority of his career. I don't even like defensive advanced stats, but they along with the eye test help support that Dirk became an above average defender in his prime.

As for Dirk being 4th or 5th best PF? Really? I think more people consider him 2nd best PF behind Duncan, who many argue should be listed as a center (played more time there). Wade never even won MVP... Couldn't beat Dirk in 2011 with the 2nd greatest player in the world and a top 15 player in the NBA... It's a safe margin that Dirk has Wade. It's not that Wade sucks, it's more that Dirk was just better.

If you want to marginalize Dirk as being 4th or 5th best PF, then how much worse does it make Wade look knowing he couldn't beat him with the help of the 2nd greatest player of all time? =/

Eye test saying Dirk was an above average defender? Debating with you is a lost cause.

All accolades and stats suggest Malone was better than Dirk. I don't know what comprehensive argument you could make that isn't solely built on winning 1 championship. From there the number 3, 4, and 5 are heavily debated with from my observation a larger majority favoring Garnett or Barkley over Dirk for 3rd.

WaDe03
04-18-2019, 09:28 AM
1118857809326637056

Greatness taken for granted.

R. Johnson#3
04-18-2019, 09:56 AM
Yea look at his supporting cast and who he had to play against genius. And it was 2 seasons lmao. Wade was at no point in time in Shaqs shadow and was easily better than Leshrivleddick in the 2011 finals.

But I know youíre trolling, I honestly feel bad for you that you donít even know what it feels like to have your team in the finals let alone in the championship. Lucky for you Wade didnít have Bosh and Whiteside in 2016 when he took yíall to 7 single handedly pretty much. Probably wouldíve beat the Cavs that year too.

The Hawks? I didnít realize they were a powerhouse. In 2009 he had to face a Celtics team that was pretty good Iíll give you that. He wouldíve been able to beat them if he was as good as you say but he couldnít. He had to leave that job to Kobe. Itís funny because that was Wadeís peak too so it goes without saying that peak Wade was never really elite.

Wade definitely was the best player on the Heat in the 2011 playoffs. Thatís why he lost to Dirk, Tyson Chandler and a bunch of vets who were way passed heir prime. Dirk didnít need the best player on the planet or the most dominant big man ever to win his ring. Wade did.

I love how you keep bringing up the Raps in a thread about Wade. I donít blame you considering weíre one of the best teams to watch in the NBA. I was actually at games 5 and 7 of that series though and can say without question the only reason that series went to 7 games was because of Dragic. In fact, he may have been able to lead the Heat over the Raps if Wade wasnít taking shots away from him.

WaDe03
04-18-2019, 10:05 AM
The Hawks? I didnít realize they were a powerhouse. In 2009 he had to face a Celtics team that was pretty good Iíll give you that. He wouldíve been able to beat them if he was as good as you say but he couldnít. He had to leave that job to Kobe. Itís funny because that was Wadeís peak too so it goes without saying that peak Wade was never really elite.

Wade definitely was the best player on the Heat in the 2011 playoffs. Thatís why he lost to Dirk, Tyson Chandler and a bunch of vets who were way passed heir prime. Dirk didnít need the best player on the planet or the most dominant big man ever to win his ring. Wade did.

I love how you keep bringing up the Raps in a thread about Wade. I donít blame you considering weíre one of the best teams to watch in the NBA. I was actually at games 5 and 7 of that series though and can say without question the only reason that series went to 7 games was because of Dragic. In fact, he may have been able to lead the Heat over the Raps if Wade wasnít taking shots away from him.

Trolls will troll! Iím proud of you for sticking with it and Iím proud of you for using google!

0 finals appearances = 0 championship ouch!!! Thank god I cannot relate!

Youíre posts are almost as mediocre as your favorite teams franchise history.

Hawkeye15
04-18-2019, 10:23 AM
What in the actual f---? lol

So if Anthony Davis gets traded for Cousins and the Warriors resign Durant to face a junior high school basketball team, we should treat that with the same reverence as the Warriors playing an NBA team?

Hell, even if Cousins, Durant, AND Davis died... the Warriors beating a junior high team is meaningful? "What does better competition have to do with anything" ... right? :confused:

On a final note, it's not "glorifying" Dirk's run to put into context the adversity he faced in his championship run. You would assume ALL championships are equal. Durant joining a 72 win team and winning the championship that year on an unprecedented stacked team is the equivalent of Dirk winning in 2011 being the only All Star on his team... Okay... this is where we have to agree to disagree.

Clearly, I said it wrong. Competition matters, to some degree, but it's the same old tired argument. Basically people want to totally discredit LeBron for playing in the easier conference, while ignoring that he basically just beat down the competition for years. Ever wonder why no team could beat Lebron out east? Hint-it wasn't just because the teams weren't as good, plenty of really good teams popped up out east, and LeBron beat them. It's factored way too much here, like he played literally nobody until the finals. Do you factor in his run where he literally had to carry Wade and play with the corpse of Mike Bibby at PG? Do we factor in the fact that his team routinely owned the west in the regular season?

It's just crazy to me, that anyone would side that much credit to a player in a team game for what he played against, and who he played with without breaking it down series by series, game by game. LeBron's run in 13' for example is arguably the best playoff run in history, let alone comparing to Dirk. He carried a Lt Dan version of Wade, and an inconsistent Bosh, as well as a bunch of role players, to a chip.

I hope you guys crucify Magic's ranking, at least LeBron didn't go lose to inferior teams with a far more stacked roster, like Magic did.

Hawkeye15
04-18-2019, 10:25 AM
Brah... I'm confused... I am responding to posts as I read them in order... I could have sworn you said "what does better competition have anything to do with an individual run?"... and now you're saying Durant gets minimal credit BECAUSE he faced minimal competition. Which is it?!? :speechless:

Do you not see your contradiction?

when you join a dynasty, and that teams goes from all time to the most unbeatable ever, yeah, you get zip credit.

Hawkeye15
04-18-2019, 10:26 AM
You have like 2 guys that pre-date Magic/Bird? Even post Magic - Isiah Thomas, Kevin McHale, Reggie Miller, Pau Gasol, Grant Hill, Manu, Paul Perice, James harden, and Curry all rate higher then Pippen IMO. Pippen somewhere b/t 50-100

I have Pippen around 45-60. But yeah, complete eradication of the old timers is a little odd.

WaDe03
04-18-2019, 10:28 AM
20-5-5 in the nba finals, I want to be LT Dan Wade

R. Johnson#3
04-18-2019, 10:34 AM
Trolls will troll! Iím proud of you for sticking with it and Iím proud of you for using google!

0 finals appearances = 0 championship ouch!!! Thank god I cannot relate!

Youíre posts are almost as mediocre as your favorite teams franchise history.

My posts just keep getting better and better much like the Raptors. Your posts are played out and old, much like your boy.

You already tried the 0 championship chirp. I told you we never had Shaq or Lebron to carry us. The Raptors were never as lucky as Wade was to have all that help. Now please deflect this post only to come back 3 posts later to repeat that the Raps have 0 championships.

YAALREADYKNO
04-18-2019, 10:39 AM
The guy who made that list is a dumbass, strictly numbers only guy. That 2011 supporting cast was **** and you know it. Best players in that series in order:

Wade
Dirk
Terry
Marion
Chandler
Bosh
LeBron

Wades numbers efficiency and impact that series completely ***** on Dirks by then way. Mavs were a +0 with Dirk on the court, the Heat were a +15 with Wade on the court. Miami lost the series in the minutes Wade was on the bench. Shouldíve played him all 48.

LMAO since that all time list doesnít favor Wade whoever made it is a dumbass now huh? But the guy who made the other list is a genius cause it favors wade right? 😂 and Iíll ask again, Where was Wade in the clutch for those games? Even Bosh hit a clutch shot in game 3 to put the Heat up and ultimately won them the game to give them a 2-1 series lead. I donít give a damn about that +\- stuff lol All the games were close and were setup for the stars of the teams to finish the games for their teams and Dirk closed while Wade didnt. Itís as simple as that lol

WaDe03
04-18-2019, 10:51 AM
Dirk didnít have near the impact or numbers Wade had, sorry man! You won the championship so just be happy about it! Heat fans donít hate you all over it but 13 years later yíall still canít get over Wade busting that ***!

WaDe03
04-18-2019, 10:55 AM
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=emXNsKw7a3w

Hereís what wade was doing in the clutch, having to go off on LeBron for ****ing up non stop.

WaDe03
04-18-2019, 10:57 AM
My posts just keep getting better and better much like the Raptors. Your posts are played out and old, much like your boy.

You already tried the 0 championship chirp. I told you we never had Shaq or Lebron to carry us. The Raptors were never as lucky as Wade was to have all that help. Now please deflect this post only to come back 3 posts later to repeat that the Raps have 0 championships.

0 championships.

Losing your best player this summer and will continue to be mediocre as **** as a franchise. Kevin Hart beat your fat midget PGs ****.

Hawkeye15
04-18-2019, 10:58 AM
Wade's 06' finals are easily stronger than Dirk's 11' finals. They just don't carry the same storyline (Dirk beat the hated LeBron led Heat, somehow propelling the level of his play into a ridiculous stratosphere).

YAALREADYKNO
04-18-2019, 11:04 AM
Dirk didnít have near the impact or numbers Wade had, sorry man! You won the championship so just be happy about it! Heat fans donít hate you all over it but 13 years later yíall still canít get over Wade busting that ***!

Lmao Wade deserves all the credit in the world for 06 and even as a Mavs fan Iíll give him that but youíve yet to answer the question on where Wade was down the stretch in those games other than Say it was Lebronís fault 😂 itís alright though. Friendly debate both great players respect to both on great careers

R. Johnson#3
04-18-2019, 11:14 AM
0 championships.

Losing your best player this summer and will continue to be mediocre as **** as a franchise. Kevin Hart beat your fat midget PGs ****.

Didnít even wait 1 post to pull the championship card. It must be a shame having no witts. Youíre reaching so far that youíre going to games of pick up now haha.

WaDe03
04-18-2019, 11:19 AM
Didnít even wait 1 post to pull the championship card. It must be a shame having no witts. Youíre reaching so far that youíre going to games of pick up now haha.

Lmao as if you werenít trolling with the **** you were saying! You know that Hawks team with Bibby Crawford ISO Joe Josh smith Marvin zwilliams Horford and Zaza was damn good and well rounded compared to the scraps Wade was playing with. You know damn well Wade was better than Shaq. If he doesnt get injured in 04-05 and 06-07 heís in the conversation for GOAT, yea I ****ing said it brother!

0!

R. Johnson#3
04-18-2019, 11:46 AM
Lmao as if you werenít trolling with the **** you were saying! You know that Hawks team with Bibby Crawford ISO Joe Josh smith Marvin zwilliams Horford and Zaza was damn good and well rounded compared to the scraps Wade was playing with. You know damn well Wade was better than Shaq. If he doesnt get injured in 04-05 and 06-07 heís in the conversation for GOAT, yea I ****ing said it brother!

0!

Pretty sure Crawford wasnít a Hawk then and wasnít Horford a rookie or 2nd year player? I also like how you mention Zaza and Josh Smith as if they were good haha. Yeah they had Bibby and ISO Joe. Shouldnít that have been nothing for peak Wade to handle with Jermaine OíNeal on his squad? Wade almost pulled it off but clearly he needed the help of some top level talent just to escape the 1st round.

If Wade didnít get injured in those years then heíd definitely be in the conversation for elite but not GOAT. Wade is currently in the hall of very good.

WaDe03
04-18-2019, 12:00 PM
Pretty sure Crawford wasnít a Hawk then and wasnít Horford a rookie or 2nd year player? I also like how you mention Zaza and Josh Smith as if they were good haha. Yeah they had Bibby and ISO Joe. Shouldnít that have been nothing for peak Wade to handle with Jermaine OíNeal on his squad? Wade almost pulled it off but clearly he needed the help of some top level talent just to escape the 1st round.

If Wade didnít get injured in those years then heíd definitely be in the conversation for elite but not GOAT. Wade is currently in the hall of very good.

Youíre right on Crawford.

Josh smith was a very good player at one point lol. Hell they had flip Murray averaging 12 forgot about him. They had all star talent and hella veterans.

ISO Joe: 21-5-6
Josh smith: 16-7
Horford: 12-9
Bibby: 14-4-5
Marvin: 14-6
Flip: 12

Jermain OíNeal was *** then, his 2nd best player was a rookie Beasley.

They were much better well rounded, the what won like 17 games the year before with an unhealthy Wade and without Wade and his return along jumped them like 25 games in wins.

Wades rookie year he took his team to the 2nd round after hitting 2 game winners in the first and in the 2nd round arrest couldnít guard him and he dunked on OíNeal and they took them to 6.

2016 Carried them to game 7 against you all in the 2nd round without Bosh and Whiteside while leading almost every statistic on offense and defense in the clutch through the 1st 2 rounds. He could win without them but he was either put around an incompetent supporting cast or some random crazy injuries like blood clots happened. Incompetent roster is the price you pay for giving up so many assets for stars but it helped bring 3 rings so I canít be too mad.

Wade is currently in the hall of top 15, thatís elite.

R. Johnson#3
04-18-2019, 12:11 PM
Youíre right on Crawford.

Josh smith was a very good player at one point lol. Hell they had flip Murray averaging 12 forgot about him. They had all star talent and hella veterans.

ISO Joe: 21-5-6
Josh smith: 16-7
Horford: 12-9
Bibby: 14-4-5
Marvin: 14-6
Flip: 12

Jermain OíNeal was *** then, his 2nd best player was a rookie Beasley.

They were much better well rounded, the what won like 17 games the year before with an unhealthy Wade and without Wade and his return along jumped them like 25 games in wins.

Wades rookie year he took his team to the 2nd round after hitting 2 game winners in the first and in the 2nd round arrest couldnít guard him and he dunked on OíNeal and they took them to 6.

2016 Carried them to game 7 against you all in the 2nd round without Bosh and Whiteside while leading almost every statistic on offense and defense in the clutch through the 1st 2 rounds. He could win without them but he was either put around an incompetent supporting cast or some random crazy injuries like blood clots happened. Incompetent roster is the price you pay for giving up so many assets for stars but it helped bring 3 rings so I canít be too mad.

Wade is currently in the hall of top 15, thatís elite.

Damn, you had to write an essay to defend why peak Wade couldnít beat an okay Hawks squad. Doesnít sound like an elite player to me.

We already went over 2016. Dragic is who got them that far. He was EASILY the best player on that squad. Thatís the only reason they made it out of the 1st round because he took the pressure off Wade. Also Whiteside got injured 1 game before JV did and JV was busy ******** all over him up until that point.

Also what assets did the Heat give up to get Wade his help? Lebron signed in FA and Bosh was traded for 2 picks. I donít really think incompetent roster was ever the problem. Wade just couldnít be ďthe guyĒ on a contending team and history proves that. Keep on reaching though.

WaDe03
04-18-2019, 12:31 PM
Damn, you had to write an essay to defend why peak Wade couldnít beat an okay Hawks squad. Doesnít sound like an elite player to me.

We already went over 2016. Dragic is who got them that far. He was EASILY the best player on that squad. Thatís the only reason they made it out of the 1st round because he took the pressure off Wade. Also Whiteside got injured 1 game before JV did and JV was busy ******** all over him up until that point.

Also what assets did the Heat give up to get Wade his help? Lebron signed in FA and Bosh was traded for 2 picks. I donít really think incompetent roster was ever the problem. Wade just couldnít be ďthe guyĒ on a contending team and history proves that. Keep on reaching though.

Keep trolling clown. I know it bothers you that if the raptors franchise ended after they donít win a championship this year either there wouldnít be a ďfarewell RaptorsĒ thread but it is what it is. The franchise is literally that irrelevant.

R. Johnson#3
04-18-2019, 01:04 PM
Keep trolling clown. I know it bothers you that if the raptors franchise ended after they donít win a championship this year either there wouldnít be a ďfarewell RaptorsĒ thread but it is what it is. The franchise is literally that irrelevant.

You really need some help in the **** talking department eh? Your chirp is a lot like D Wadeís 3pt shot. It needs work but youíd be better suited if you just stopped trying altogether.

WaDe03
04-18-2019, 01:25 PM
You really need some help in the **** talking department eh? Your chirp is a lot like D Wadeís 3pt shot. It needs work but youíd be better suited if you just stopped trying altogether.

That was almost funny, proud of you! Keep working on it and let me know when youíre ready for another chance.

R. Johnson#3
04-18-2019, 01:31 PM
That was almost funny, proud of you! Keep working on it and let me know when youíre ready for another chance.

Another chance at what? Making you spin like I always do?

WaDe03
04-18-2019, 01:51 PM
Another chance at what? Making you spin like I always do?

Iíll give you something to spin on.

R. Johnson#3
04-18-2019, 02:00 PM
Iíll give you something to spin on.

A wheelchair? Good because my shoulder is killing me.

WaDe03
04-18-2019, 02:02 PM
A wheelchair? Good because my shoulder is killing me.

Almost got me put in timeout there little guy.

R. Johnson#3
04-18-2019, 03:03 PM
Almost got me put in timeout there little guy.

Your original post was something along the line of "Sit on this dick". I read it while I was at work and had a good chuckle. Don't worry, I would never report you. That would insinuate that you're actually bothering me and that I value your opinion. You do nothing but provide me with entertainment. You've already hurled obscenities at me in this exchange which could result in a ban but I don't care to report it. I really wanted to respond to your unedited post but my response would almost guarantee you reporting me because you've already done so in the past for much less. The report(s)? resulted in nothing just so you know.

WaDe03
04-18-2019, 03:20 PM
Your original post was something along the line of "Sit on this dick". I read it while I was at work and had a good chuckle. Don't worry, I would never report you. That would insinuate that you're actually bothering me and that I value your opinion. You do nothing but provide me with entertainment. You've already hurled obscenities at me in this exchange which could result in a ban but I don't care to report it. I really wanted to respond to your unedited post but my response would almost guarantee you reporting me because you've already done so in the past for much less. The report(s)? resulted in nothing just so you know.

Work? I remember those days!

What did I report you on? Iíve never reported anyone on anything being serious about it. You probably said something slick **** talking the goat and I probably hit you with a ďreported for Wade slanderĒ

R. Johnson#3
04-18-2019, 03:25 PM
Work? I remember those days!

What did I report you on? Iíve never reported anyone on anything being serious about it. You probably said something slick **** talking the goat and I probably hit you with a ďreported for Wade slanderĒ

I thought you were being serious when you said it based on how you've lashed out with insults in the past. My mistake then.

R. Johnson#3
04-18-2019, 03:26 PM
This "Farewell" thread has really tailed off and spun out of control. Kind of like when D Wade went to the Bulls.

WaDe03
04-18-2019, 03:48 PM
This "Farewell" thread has really tailed off and spun out of control. Kind of like when D Wade went to the Bulls.

Lmao! Heís was good on the Bulls though.

Threads tail off when they become troll infested and here you are of course!

R. Johnson#3
04-18-2019, 03:59 PM
Lmao! Heís was good on the Bulls though.

Threads tail off when they become troll infested and here you are of course!

:bow:

Redrum187
04-18-2019, 05:40 PM
How do you not have anybody else on the squad outside of the big 3 yet the heat had more rebounds, blocks, assists, and steals than the Mavs? It came down to the superstars making plays down the stretch and Dirk made more than Wade and Lebron. You cant just go off the Lebron excuse forever to cover for Wade not coming through down the stretch in that series either. Also ESPN has Dirk ranked at 17 and Wade at 27 In their top 100 all time rankings list if weíre using ESPN to justify things now.

Since ESPN is gospel to Wade03, I guess he'll have to concede that Dirk is 10 spots better than Wade. I had Wade earlier than #27, maybe I was being too generous? :P

Redrum187
04-18-2019, 05:45 PM
Eye test saying Dirk was an above average defender? Debating with you is a lost cause.

All accolades and stats suggest Malone was better than Dirk. I don't know what comprehensive argument you could make that isn't solely built on winning 1 championship. From there the number 3, 4, and 5 are heavily debated with from my observation a larger majority favoring Garnett or Barkley over Dirk for 3rd.

So you disagree on the eye test, that's fine... Do you put stock in defensive stats or only when it supports your narrative?

Malone was a better regular season performer, without a doubt. However, postseason, Dirk was a monster and never had the luxury to play with a top 5 PG of all time throughout his entire prime. Dirk takes a big dump on Malone when we look at the postseason though. Dirk elevated his game and was better than in the regular season. Furthermore, Dirk was able to beat the 2nd greatest player of All Time in addition to the 3rd or 4th best SG of all time in 2011... Malone never beat Jordan. Sucks for him that Jordan is the GOAT.

Redrum187
04-18-2019, 05:51 PM
I have Pippen around 45-60. But yeah, complete eradication of the old timers is a little odd.

It's not complete eradication. There are a few (albeit very few) who would still be able to perform at an extremely high level today. If we were in basketball Heaven and could select our teams, you'd be cast to hell for selecting some of those ancient players ahead of Pippen. He also didn't just list ancient players... he listed players like Manu, Reggie Miller, etc...

I would love to see your top 30 and see which ones I'd go "yuck" to. I made my list, do you think it was terrible?

Redrum187
04-18-2019, 05:58 PM
Wade's 06' finals are easily stronger than Dirk's 11' finals. They just don't carry the same storyline (Dirk beat the hated LeBron led Heat, somehow propelling the level of his play into a ridiculous stratosphere).

I agree... they don't have the same storyline. "NBA refs accused of betting on games they officiated, one ref pleading guilty and serving time for it, the same ref states the 2006 Finals were rigged intentionally to extend series" vs "a lone superstar with Jason Terry as his Pippen beating the 2nd greatest player of all time, the 3rd/4th greatest SG of all time, and a top 15 player in the NBA at the time shocking everyone who thought they wouldn't get out of the second round when they faced the 2x defending champions only to sweep them." This storyline is based on facts... you seem to ignore context intentionally and only focus on it when it's fits your argument.

WaDe03
04-18-2019, 08:37 PM
Since ESPN is gospel to Wade03, I guess he'll have to concede that Dirk is 10 spots better than Wade. I had Wade earlier than #27, maybe I was being too generous? :P

The formula used to determine that is **** go look at it.

Hawkeye15
04-19-2019, 09:24 AM
It's not complete eradication. There are a few (albeit very few) who would still be able to perform at an extremely high level today. If we were in basketball Heaven and could select our teams, you'd be cast to hell for selecting some of those ancient players ahead of Pippen. He also didn't just list ancient players... he listed players like Manu, Reggie Miller, etc...

I would love to see your top 30 and see which ones I'd go "yuck" to. I made my list, do you think it was terrible?

Your list wasn't terrible at all, there are a handful of players that bounce all over. And many just don't feel comfortable ranking old timers, since they didn't see any of them.

Hawkeye15
04-19-2019, 09:25 AM
I agree... they don't have the same storyline. "NBA refs accused of betting on games they officiated, one ref pleading guilty and serving time for it, the same ref states the 2006 Finals were rigged intentionally to extend series" vs "a lone superstar with Jason Terry as his Pippen beating the 2nd greatest player of all time, the 3rd/4th greatest SG of all time, and a top 15 player in the NBA at the time shocking everyone who thought they wouldn't get out of the second round when they faced the 2x defending champions only to sweep them." This storyline is based on facts... you seem to ignore context intentionally and only focus on it when it's fits your argument.

that is 100% of people dude. Dirk's run was great, but not historic by any means.

YAALREADYKNO
04-19-2019, 09:31 AM
Since ESPN is gospel to Wade03, I guess he'll have to concede that Dirk is 10 spots better than Wade. I had Wade earlier than #27, maybe I was being too generous? :P

😂😂

beasted86
04-19-2019, 04:49 PM
So you disagree on the eye test, that's fine... Do you put stock in defensive stats or only when it supports your narrative?

Malone was a better regular season performer, without a doubt. However, postseason, Dirk was a monster and never had the luxury to play with a top 5 PG of all time throughout his entire prime. Dirk takes a big dump on Malone when we look at the postseason though. Dirk elevated his game and was better than in the regular season. Furthermore, Dirk was able to beat the 2nd greatest player of All Time in addition to the 3rd or 4th best SG of all time in 2011... Malone never beat Jordan. Sucks for him that Jordan is the GOAT.

Defensive stats (DRtg, etc) are team based. The tracking stats were never available in Dirk's prime. What's obvious is Dallas hiding Dirk on defense the same as Warriors do on Curry. It's easier to post stats that make a bum look average when you're doing that. Curry's numbers along with the collective team surrounding actually make him look good but anyone with a brain knows he's a putrid defender. Same applied to Dirk, he has always been a bad defender. Slow footed, bad at closing out weak side, defensive stance and anticipation struggling just to break average, horrible on switches against small guys but decent against low post scorers.

As far as Malone, their playoff numbers are a wash, and Malone had the longevity. As I suggested earlier, the main crux of your argument hinges on 1 championship. I've never seen any of the talking heads suggest Dirk as the 2nd best PF.

Redrum187
04-19-2019, 05:09 PM
Defensive stats (DRtg, etc) are team based. The tracking stats were never available in Dirk's prime. What's obvious is Dallas hiding Dirk on defense the same as Warriors do on Curry. It's easier to post stats that make a bum look average when you're doing that. Curry's numbers along with the collective team surrounding actually make him look good but anyone with a brain knows he's a putrid defender. Same applied to Dirk, he has always been a bad defender. Slow footed, bad at closing out weak side, defensive stance and anticipation struggling just to break average, horrible on switches against small guys but decent against low post scorers.

As far as Malone, their playoff numbers are a wash, and Malone had the longevity. As I suggested earlier, the main crux of your argument hinges on 1 championship. I've never seen any of the talking heads suggest Dirk as the 2nd best PF.

There are numerous people who think he's the 2nd best while others have him tied with KG/Barkley/Malone/KG for 2nd best. I can point you to the threads if you'd like?

As for playoff numbers, the numbers don't tell the whole story. I'm not sure if you were alive when Stockton and Malone were in their prime, but if you were, you would know that Malone had some pretty poor showings when it mattered most. Dirk, while being knocked out of the playoffs, almost always showed up. He didn't have nearly the team that Malone did but was able to do more with less. Dirk's win shares in the playoffs dwarfs Malone's. Pretend Dirk is 100th best PF, do you at least agree Dirk did more with less than Malone? If not, maybe you're right and it's truly pointless to discuss with one another.

As for DRtg, I agree that it's more indicative of team defense than individual defense. One of the reasons I don't like defensive stats. However, are you familiar with RPM and RAPM? These aren't gospel, but they are worlds better defensive metrics than DRtg. If you are familiar, Dirk's is absolutely a positive for most of his career. Perhaps you don't trust ANY defensive stat... I could show you a plethora of articles debunking the myth of him being a poor defender. While you are correct that Dirk was not fast laterally, he made up for his lack of speed with his great hands. If you're stuck on your opinion, nothing anyone can say or show you to make you consider Dirk was a positive defender, then yes, lets agree to disagree. If you're open, tell me what to do/what to show you and I'd be willing.

Redrum187
04-19-2019, 05:16 PM
that is 100% of people dude. Dirk's run was great, but not historic by any means.

I will concede that my having a boner for Dirk could possibly make me think it's greater than it really is. However, I do strive to be objective and feel that even if I was a Dirk hater, I'd recognize that Dirk's postseason in 2011 was the greatest I've personally witnessed. I don't like LeBron, but I will say his 2016 postseason is the 2nd greatest I've witnessed. I like Wade even less, but acknowledge his peak is superior to Kobe's peak (although Kobe dumps on Wade in career). I don't think it's me trying to pretty the story up as much as I'm looking at all the variables in context.

beasted86
04-19-2019, 05:30 PM
There are numerous people who think he's the 2nd best while others have him tied with KG/Barkley/Malone/KG for 2nd best. I can point you to the threads if you'd like?

As for playoff numbers, the numbers don't tell the whole story. I'm not sure if you were alive when Stockton and Malone were in their prime, but if you were, you would know that Malone had some pretty poor showings when it mattered most. Dirk, while being knocked out of the playoffs, almost always showed up. He didn't have nearly the team that Malone did but was able to do more with less. Dirk's win shares in the playoffs dwarfs Malone's. Pretend Dirk is 100th best PF, do you at least agree Dirk did more with less than Malone? If not, maybe you're right and it's truly pointless to discuss with one another.

As for DRtg, I agree that it's more indicative of team defense than individual defense. One of the reasons I don't like defensive stats. However, are you familiar with RPM and RAPM? These aren't gospel, but they are worlds better defensive metrics than DRtg. If you are familiar, Dirk's is absolutely a positive for most of his career. Perhaps you don't trust ANY defensive stat... I could show you a plethora of articles debunking the myth of him being a poor defender. While you are correct that Dirk was not fast laterally, he made up for his lack of speed with his great hands. If you're stuck on your opinion, nothing anyone can say or show you to make you consider Dirk was a positive defender, then yes, lets agree to disagree. If you're open, tell me what to do/what to show you and I'd be willing.

I'd agree Dallas won a few more series with less paper talent, but I would not say "Dirk" did more with less for a couple simple reasons. Firstly, Dirk was not LeBron who impacted every facet of the game. For the most part he only scored. Never passing, never defending, or rebounding at any all-time great level. Second, the Jazz and the Mavs reached the finals the same amount of times. Lastly, whatever you're going to say about Malone's failures at the end of the day anybody can refute with the 2007 playoffs. You can't have it both ways over-glorifying Dirk as some playoff all-time intangible great while ignoring a 1st vs 8th playoff KO losing in 6 games. That automatically knocks him down several pegs.

As far as defensive stats go, as I said just refer to the Stephen Curry logic. There is absolutely zero way possible you can lie and say Dallas did not "hide" Dirk on defense. So any discussion about how average he might look is gone. And yes, I guess you can say I'm "entrenched" in the belief that it had less to do with not wanting him tired or in foul trouble than it was as a result of him being a poor defender. There were times late in games they would sit Dirk for an offensive/defensive possession benching him for defensive purposes and subbing a better defender. The Miami Heat did this 0 times in Wade's tenure.

valade16
04-19-2019, 05:35 PM
How different would Malone's legacy be if he had managed to win a single title in Utah?

Redrum187
04-19-2019, 05:46 PM
I'd agree Dallas won a few more series with less paper talent, but I would not say "Dirk" did more with less for a couple simple reasons. Firstly, Dirk was not LeBron who impacted every facet of the game. For the most part he only scored. Never passing, never defending, or rebounding at any all-time great level. Second, the Jazz and the Mavs reached the finals the same amount of times. Lastly, whatever you're going to say about Malone's failures at the end of the day anybody can refute with the 2007 playoffs. You can't have it both ways over-glorifying Dirk as some playoff all-time intangible great while ignoring a 1st vs 8th playoff KO losing in 6 games. That automatically knocks him down several pegs.

As far as defensive stats go, as I said just refer to the Stephen Curry logic. There is absolutely zero way possible you can lie and say Dallas did not "hide" Dirk on defense. So any discussion about how average he might look is gone. And yes, I guess you can say I'm "entrenched" in the belief that it had less to do with not wanting him tired or in foul trouble than it was as a result of him being a poor defender. There were times late in games they would sit Dirk for an offensive/defensive possession benching him for defensive purposes and subbing a better defender. The Miami Heat did this 0 times in Wade's tenure.

I agree, Dirk should ge some criticisms for 2007. He was MVP and got knocked in the first. Yet again, context is important. Dirk's former coach who knew everything about him, including his weakness was the coach of GSW. He knew having a smaller defender on Dirk was the best strategy at the time. Thankfully Dirk started doing his patented 1-leg fadeaway shot he's famous for and post 2007, teams suffered when they tried the same strategy. In the regular season, GSW was 4-0 against Dallas. It was a recipe for disaster. This doesn't negate or excuse 2007, but it does give insight into why it happened and why it wasn't all that surprising.

On the flip side, Wade was swept in the same year. Do we penalize Dirk for being MVP and winning 67 games with Josh freaking Howard as his best teammate but give Wade a pass for shooting .479 TS% and losing in 4? Although both played like trash, Dirk did shoot a higher TS% and was 20/11/2/2/1. His trash was less stinky by a little bit. I could be wrong about Wade's injury timeline, but isn't it important to remember Wade suffered a shoulder injury that needed surgery but he put it off until after the postseason? Well... do we get to ignore that context just as we ignore Dirk/the Mavs? Does it exonerate Wade and Dirk that they didn't get the job done in the first round? No... but it definitely puts things into perspective.

What is your opinion on RPM and RAPM?

What do you mean "paper talent"? Maybe I'm misunderstanding you... are you implying that Dirk had less "paper talent" but in reality, Jason Terry (2011) and Josh Howard (2006) were superior to John Stock (top 5 PG)? What is preventing you from saying that the Mavericks had absolutely less talent than the Jazz but beat a player on par with Jordan and another top 3 or 4 SG in NBA history?

I question if people are becoming desensitized to superteams. They are use to players teaming up and feel that their accomplishments should count the same as if they did it solo. It doesn't work that way... at least not for me.

beasted86
04-19-2019, 05:57 PM
I agree, Dirk should ge some criticisms for 2007. He was MVP and got knocked in the first. Yet again, context is important. Dirk's former coach who knew everything about him, including his weakness was the coach of GSW. He knew having a smaller defender on Dirk was the best strategy at the time. Thankfully Dirk started doing his patented 1-leg fadeaway shot he's famous for and post 2007, teams suffered when they tried the same strategy. In the regular season, GSW was 4-0 against Dallas. It was a recipe for disaster. This doesn't negate or excuse 2007, but it does give insight into why it happened and why it wasn't all that surprising.

On the flip side, Wade was swept in the same year. Do we penalize Dirk for being MVP and winning 67 games with Josh freaking Howard as his best teammate but give Wade a pass for shooting .479 TS% and losing in 4? I could be wrong about Wade's injury timeline, but isn't it important to remember Wade suffered a shoulder injury that needed surgery but he put it off until after the postseason? Well... do we get to ignore that context just as we ignore Dirk/the Mavs? Does it exonerate Wade and Dirk that they didn't get the job done in the first round? No... but it definitely puts things into perspective.

What is your opinion on RPM and RAPM?

What do you mean "paper talent"? Maybe I'm misunderstanding you... are you implying that Dirk had less "paper talent" but in reality, Jason Terry (2011) and Josh Howard (2006) were superior to John Stock (top 5 PG)? What is preventing you from saying that the Mavericks had absolutely less talent than the Jazz but beat a player on par with Jordan and another top 3 or 4 SG in NBA history?

I question if people are becoming desensitized to superteams. They are use to players teaming up and feel that their accomplishments should count the same as if they did it solo. It doesn't work that way... at least not for me.

The Mavs did not always have poor talent, just like the Jazz despite Malone and Stockton didn't have much talent many of those years either.

LeBron in 2010 was not on par with Jordan puh-leease. If that's what fits your agenda go ahead. End of the day all of your argument continues to hinge on 1 championship which everyone in this thread is saying you're over glorifying his title run.

Finally... Let me reiterate I have no thoughts on any defensive metric involving Dirk when he's being hidden and benched. The defensive metrics say Curry is an all-time legend defensively. Would anyone in their right mind say Curry is even an average defender let alone a legend?

Redrum187
04-20-2019, 01:29 AM
The Mavs did not always have poor talent, just like the Jazz despite Malone and Stockton didn't have much talent many of those years either.

LeBron in 2010 was not on par with Jordan puh-leease. If that's what fits your agenda go ahead. End of the day all of your argument continues to hinge on 1 championship which everyone in this thread is saying you're over glorifying his title run.

Finally... Let me reiterate I have no thoughts on any defensive metric involving Dirk when he's being hidden and benched. The defensive metrics say Curry is an all-time legend defensively. Would anyone in their right mind say Curry is even an average defender let alone a legend?

Huh? 2011 LeBron played great defense... He was not only lethal offensively, he shut people down defensively. It was at the tail end of his time in Miami that his defense slipped. LeBron is the only person who is on par with Jordan... Some even think he is superior to Jordan (I'm not part of that camp), but their numbers aren't that far off. It's crazy you don't think that 2011 LeBron wasn't in the same league as Jordan... I understand Jordan is the GOAT... I guess I just think astronomically higher than you about LeBron which is odd because he played for your team and I am not a huge fan of him... =/

NO one said Dirk was legendary defensively... but he was above average... I'll go ahead and assume by your refusal to answer your thoughts on RPM and RAPM that you don't know what they measure. It's not as team oriented as DRtg... It is a more accurate representation of a player's defense. While not perfect, it's probably the best we have. I'd advise looking into it and seeing the formula for how it is measured. Nevertheless, you can't refute something you don't even understand.

You're saying the Mavericks didn't always have poor talent... alright... Was Jason Terry not Dirk's best teammate in 2011? Was Josh Howard not Dirk's best teammate in 2006? In what universe is either player close to John Stockton? Maybe you think Erick Dampier and/or DeSagana Diop put the Mavericks over the top? :laugh:

beasted86
04-20-2019, 08:12 AM
Huh? 2011 LeBron played great defense... He was not only lethal offensively, he shut people down defensively. It was at the tail end of his time in Miami that his defense slipped. LeBron is the only person who is on par with Jordan... Some even think he is superior to Jordan (I'm not part of that camp), but their numbers aren't that far off. It's crazy you don't think that 2011 LeBron wasn't in the same league as Jordan... I understand Jordan is the GOAT... I guess I just think astronomically higher than you about LeBron which is odd because he played for your team and I am not a huge fan of him... =/

NO one said Dirk was legendary defensively... but he was above average... I'll go ahead and assume by your refusal to answer your thoughts on RPM and RAPM that you don't know what they measure. It's not as team oriented as DRtg... It is a more accurate representation of a player's defense. While not perfect, it's probably the best we have. I'd advise looking into it and seeing the formula for how it is measured. Nevertheless, you can't refute something you don't even understand.

You're saying the Mavericks didn't always have poor talent... alright... Was Jason Terry not Dirk's best teammate in 2011? Was Josh Howard not Dirk's best teammate in 2006? In what universe is either player close to John Stockton? Maybe you think Erick Dampier and/or DeSagana Diop put the Mavericks over the top? :laugh:

2011 LeBron ≠ Prime Jordan. The fact you believe otherwise is disturbing. LeBron was great in his own right, but to say that LeBron in 2011 was already playing as good as Jordan's best seasons is misguided.

I'm very familiar with real plus minus, and its not a great stat. Any plus minus stat is flawed in trying to judge an individuals impact since the coach is always aware of a player like Dirk's defensive shortcomings and is only playing certain units to hide his flaws. And is pulling cheat moves like cross position switches to ensure Dirk is defending the easiest guy on the floor.


Burh, I need you to go really actually look at what Malone brought to the Finals. Those rosters were not what you think. The 2nd and 3rd options were garbage 14-13 PPG scorers. I really think you have revisionist history to fit your agenda. If you really think 12 PPG, 8 AST Stockton in 1998 was some all-star let's close the debate right now. The 1998 playoff numbers of Malone's teammates say it all. Go compare the stats to the 2006 Mavs and get back to me.

AllBall
04-20-2019, 11:56 AM
Dirk is so great yet his Farewell thread is 12 posts. LMFAO. Oh PSD, it's so nice to see you truly care about Wade. That he has haunted your nightmares so much that the hate continues to spew. We know you're traumatized, from the tears you shed after he crushed the dreams and hopes of your franchise time and time again.

WaDe03
04-20-2019, 01:06 PM
Have to respond to Wade being swept in 06-07 and playing bad. You all do realize that was the same year he shattered his rotator cuff and disclocated his shoulder like 50 games in right? He wasnít even supposed to come back that year but I think was able to talk them in to it somehow. Also, if I remember correctly he had more surgery in that offseason on his knees and had even more done the following year when they shut him down for lingering issues.

On the flip side, that injury to Wade on 06-07 is the reason you guys can even say Dirk has an MVP because Wade was easily running away with that **** and having the best year of his entire career pre-injury.

Averaged 29-5-8-2-1.5 on 50% from the field pre injury.

Scoots
04-20-2019, 01:41 PM
How different would Malone's legacy be if he had managed to win a single title in Utah?

When your favorite player never won a title titles are meaningless ... when they won multiple titles they are critical. So my answer to you would be "it depends on who you ask"

valade16
04-20-2019, 02:15 PM
Huh? 2011 LeBron played great defense... He was not only lethal offensively, he shut people down defensively. It was at the tail end of his time in Miami that his defense slipped. LeBron is the only person who is on par with Jordan... Some even think he is superior to Jordan (I'm not part of that camp), but their numbers aren't that far off. It's crazy you don't think that 2011 LeBron wasn't in the same league as Jordan... I understand Jordan is the GOAT... I guess I just think astronomically higher than you about LeBron which is odd because he played for your team and I am not a huge fan of him... =/

NO one said Dirk was legendary defensively... but he was above average... I'll go ahead and assume by your refusal to answer your thoughts on RPM and RAPM that you don't know what they measure. It's not as team oriented as DRtg... It is a more accurate representation of a player's defense. While not perfect, it's probably the best we have. I'd advise looking into it and seeing the formula for how it is measured. Nevertheless, you can't refute something you don't even understand.

You're saying the Mavericks didn't always have poor talent... alright... Was Jason Terry not Dirk's best teammate in 2011? Was Josh Howard not Dirk's best teammate in 2006? In what universe is either player close to John Stockton? Maybe you think Erick Dampier and/or DeSagana Diop put the Mavericks over the top? :laugh:

Was it? It could have been Jason Kidd's steady leadership and passing. It could have been Tyson Chandler's DPOY caliber defense.

I'd take Kidd, Terry, Chandler, Marion, and Butler over Stockton, Hornacek, Byron Russell and Greg Ostertag.

Remember, while Stockton wasn't as old as Kidd in 11, he was still past his prime (34/35 during their Finals runs).

Redrum187
04-20-2019, 03:23 PM
Was it? It could have been Jason Kidd's steady leadership and passing. It could have been Tyson Chandler's DPOY caliber defense.

I'd take Kidd, Terry, Chandler, Marion, and Butler over Stockton, Hornacek, Byron Russell and Greg Ostertag.

Remember, while Stockton wasn't as old as Kidd in 11, he was still past his prime (34/35 during their Finals runs).

Naw, all the attention on Dirk in the Finals alone makes me respect Terry for playing better than he was accustom to. He was absolutely the 2nd best player on the team.

Also, why are we excusing all the other years Malone/Stockton were IN prime and focusing on tail end prime 1997 Finals and out of prime 1998 Finals? Did Malone and Stockton join the same team in 1997? What about the years prior? They happen to have made it at the end of Stockton's prime but that doesn't mean for the majority of their careers (if not entirety), Malone had a superior squad. Hence, Dirk did more with less than Malone.

I don't blame you for wanting the Mavericks out of prime role players over Utahs... In hindsight, they got the job done... but that is hardly proof that one team is superior than the other, especially considering their starting Small Forward was injured for all of the playoffs (Caron Butler). If the Mavericks lost, would you still pick them over Malone's support even in 1997/1998?

I guess my biggest point for Dirk over Malone, aside from winning a ship, is Dirk always produced in the postseason having subpar support when we look at past championship teams. Malone had Stockton for almost all of his career and didn't have the opportunity. Only 2 Finals appearances? No wins? Putting up bricks in elimination games?

Redrum187
04-20-2019, 03:34 PM
I'm very familiar with real plus minus, and its not a great stat. Any plus minus stat is flawed in trying to judge an individuals impact since the coach is always aware of a player like Dirk's defensive shortcomings and is only playing certain units to hide his flaws. And is pulling cheat moves like cross position switches to ensure Dirk is defending the easiest guy on the floor.


What about RAPM (which is considered to be superior)?

https://www.nba.com/hoop/lowpost/dirk_nowitzki_is__great_defen_2011_05_10.html

http://www.espn.com/blog/dallas/mavericks/post/_/id/4698949/believe-it-or-not-dirk-plays-good-d

Maybe it really was a coincidence that all the Power Forwards Dirk guarded in the 2011 postseason did noticeably worse than what they were accustom to. Maybe writers from NBA.com and ESPN have Aryan pride and want to elevate Dirk's defense... or maybe those who watched the majority of his career have seen it and can use stats to reconcile that he was indeed an above average defender.

Chronz
04-20-2019, 04:10 PM
Woah. This sounds like a debate we haven't heard in awhile. Lemme get some brews before I wreck it

WaDe03
04-20-2019, 04:11 PM
ďAbove averageĒ lmao good for Dirk. Wade was elite on both ends

beasted86
04-20-2019, 04:17 PM
What about RAPM (which is considered to be superior)?

https://www.nba.com/hoop/lowpost/dirk_nowitzki_is__great_defen_2011_05_10.html

http://www.espn.com/blog/dallas/mavericks/post/_/id/4698949/believe-it-or-not-dirk-plays-good-d

Maybe it really was a coincidence that all the Power Forwards Dirk guarded in the 2011 postseason did noticeably worse than what they were accustom to. Maybe writers from NBA.com and ESPN have Aryan pride and want to elevate Dirk's defense... or maybe those who watched the majority of his career have seen it and can use stats to reconcile that he was indeed an above average defender.

He definitely got snubbed from several defensive teams...

Seriously though, TF we talking about when Wade has been head and shoulders ahead of Dirk on defense. What argument are you even trying to make when a 6'4" guard averaged the same blocks as a 7'0" player? Dirk never was a good passer either. His only purpose was scoring. Pretty one dimensional whole career.

Redrum187
04-20-2019, 06:21 PM
He definitely got snubbed from several defensive teams...

Seriously though, TF we talking about when Wade has been head and shoulders ahead of Dirk on defense. What argument are you even trying to make when a 6'4" guard averaged the same blocks as a 7'0" player? Dirk never was a good passer either. His only purpose was scoring. Pretty one dimensional whole career.

So many paper tigers you're tearing down. lol

You made a claim that Dirk was 4th or 5th best PF... More people think he's #2 than 4 or 5. You made a claim that Dirk was a terrible defender... all defensive stats, the eye test, and sports analysts say he was actually a good defender. Then you implied Dirk played with similar talent wise team as Malone and point to the 1997/1998 series Malone had Stockton as if he didn't have Stockton his entire career. Now you're trying to imply I'm saying Dirk was better than Wade defensively? Jesus Christ... lol

Lil Rhody
04-20-2019, 06:50 PM
So overrated


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valade16
04-20-2019, 06:50 PM
Naw, all the attention on Dirk in the Finals alone makes me respect Terry for playing better than he was accustom to. He was absolutely the 2nd best player on the team.

Also, why are we excusing all the other years Malone/Stockton were IN prime and focusing on tail end prime 1997 Finals and out of prime 1998 Finals? Did Malone and Stockton join the same team in 1997? What about the years prior? They happen to have made it at the end of Stockton's prime but that doesn't mean for the majority of their careers (if not entirety), Malone had a superior squad. Hence, Dirk did more with less than Malone.

I don't blame you for wanting the Mavericks out of prime role players over Utahs... In hindsight, they got the job done... but that is hardly proof that one team is superior than the other, especially considering their starting Small Forward was injured for all of the playoffs (Caron Butler). If the Mavericks lost, would you still pick them over Malone's support even in 1997/1998?

I guess my biggest point for Dirk over Malone, aside from winning a ship, is Dirk always produced in the postseason having subpar support when we look at past championship teams. Malone had Stockton for almost all of his career and didn't have the opportunity. Only 2 Finals appearances? No wins? Putting up bricks in elimination games?

If we're going to go down that road for Malone we have to go down that road for Dirk. He was playing with Steve Nash and Michael Finley for several years. He had some good teams too.

At the end of the day, both made 2 Finals in 18 years with their franchise. The only difference is Dirk slayed the beast that is LeBron and Malone couldn't slay the beast that is Jordan.

I would take Dirk as well, but that's because my PF tiers are:

1. Duncan

2/3 Dirk/Barkley

4/5 KG/Malone

goingfor28
04-21-2019, 09:26 AM
ďAbove averageĒ lmao good for Dirk. Wade was elite on both endsFor like 2 years.
Wade's peak was likely higher than Dirk's, but Dirk's longevity >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wade's longevity by far.

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WaDe03
04-23-2019, 08:40 AM
For like 2 years.
Wade's peak was likely higher than Dirk's, but Dirk's longevity >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wade's longevity by far.

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Thatís fine, thatís just one thing though. Wade has peak, championships, elite 2 way play over dirk. Dirks a better shooter, thatís about it.

valade16
04-23-2019, 12:06 PM
Thatís fine, thatís just one thing though. Wade has peak, championships, elite 2 way play over dirk. Dirks a better shooter, thatís about it.

He was also a top tier player far longer than Wade...

ewing
04-23-2019, 01:16 PM
Thatís fine, thatís just one thing though. Wade has peak, championships, elite 2 way play over dirk. Dirks a better shooter, thatís about it.

He was much taller


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WaDe03
04-23-2019, 02:03 PM
He was also a top tier player far longer than Wade...

Which I why I said ďthatís fine thats just one thing thoughĒ speaking on longevity.

WaDe03
04-23-2019, 02:05 PM
When I rank my players all time I have like 5 different categories:

1. Peak play
2. Championships/ability to lead your team to one
3. Longevity
4. 2 way play
5. Ability to take over games in the biggest moments

Dirk has longevity, Wade has the other 4. Wade is top 15 ever when I make my list as there arenít 15 who fill these categories better.

Chronz
04-23-2019, 03:13 PM
Woah. This sounds like a debate we haven't heard in awhile. Lemme get some brews before I wreck it

Nvm this ones hard

Hawkeye15
04-23-2019, 03:56 PM
Naw, all the attention on Dirk in the Finals alone makes me respect Terry for playing better than he was accustom to. He was absolutely the 2nd best player on the team.

Also, why are we excusing all the other years Malone/Stockton were IN prime and focusing on tail end prime 1997 Finals and out of prime 1998 Finals? Did Malone and Stockton join the same team in 1997? What about the years prior? They happen to have made it at the end of Stockton's prime but that doesn't mean for the majority of their careers (if not entirety), Malone had a superior squad. Hence, Dirk did more with less than Malone.

I don't blame you for wanting the Mavericks out of prime role players over Utahs... In hindsight, they got the job done... but that is hardly proof that one team is superior than the other, especially considering their starting Small Forward was injured for all of the playoffs (Caron Butler). If the Mavericks lost, would you still pick them over Malone's support even in 1997/1998?

I guess my biggest point for Dirk over Malone, aside from winning a ship, is Dirk always produced in the postseason having subpar support when we look at past championship teams. Malone had Stockton for almost all of his career and didn't have the opportunity. Only 2 Finals appearances? No wins? Putting up bricks in elimination games?

Dirk excelled in the playoffs, Malone regressed. That is the difference.

beasted86
04-23-2019, 07:59 PM
I disagree. Malone didn't really regress in the playoffs, he simply never rose to any additional level. Most stars are expected to produce above their season numbers while Malone basically remained the same player. He gets more flack for the 2 free throws than his true track record should suggest.

Hawkeye15
04-23-2019, 10:03 PM
I disagree. Malone didn't really regress in the playoffs, he simply never rose to any additional level. Most stars are expected to produce above their season numbers while Malone basically remained the same player. He gets more flack for the 2 free throws than his true track record should suggest.

He regressed. Look at the numbers. They support what we saw. Look at his splits against the competiton too. Its one thing to pound 8 seeds, another deeper in the playoffs.

ewing
04-23-2019, 11:07 PM
I disagree. Malone didn't really regress in the playoffs, he simply never rose to any additional level. Most stars are expected to produce above their season numbers while Malone basically remained the same player. He gets more flack for the 2 free throws than his true track record should suggest.

He was worse in the playoffs


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beasted86
04-24-2019, 12:37 AM
He regressed. Look at the numbers. They support what we saw. Look at his splits against the competiton too. Its one thing to pound 8 seeds, another deeper in the playoffs.

His raw stats suggest he was the a similar player with a small drop off. It's his efficiency and production on a per minute basis that make him look worse. But to use a basic catchall stat like PER he's career 23.9 vs 21.1 definite drop off but it's been exaggerated by too many at this point. You'd think he was 2011 LeBron how some talk.

AllBall
04-24-2019, 12:46 AM
https://i.imgur.com/9wTnjA3.png

https://i.imgur.com/tPeBFSm.gif

ewing
04-24-2019, 07:52 AM
His raw stats suggest he was the a similar player with a small drop off. It's his efficiency and production on a per minute basis that make him look worse. But to use a basic catchall stat like PER he's career 23.9 vs 21.1 definite drop off but it's been exaggerated by too many at this point. You'd think he was 2011 LeBron how some talk.

I think you are too young to have seen any of this and are clinging to a narrative that supports your argument


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