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View Full Version : If Dirk Nowitzki Won in 2006...



Redrum187
03-19-2019, 03:57 PM
Would he be unanimously considered the 2nd greatest PF of all time? As it stands, he is in the top tier of PF's in contention for the honor with KG, Karl Malone, and Charles Barkley.

ewing
03-19-2019, 06:05 PM
He should be either way.


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valade16
03-19-2019, 06:14 PM
I think he would be because he would have shed the "can't win" and "chocker" label early so any of his exits from 07-10 would not have been held against him. That being said, I have him above KG and Karl Malone. I'm still undecided on whether he's ahead of Barkley or not.

ewing
03-19-2019, 06:34 PM
I think he would be because he would have shed the "can't win" and "chocker" label early so any of his exits from 07-10 would not have been held against him. That being said, I have him above KG and Karl Malone. I'm still undecided on whether he's ahead of Barkley or not.

When was he a chocker? He was a better playoff performer then the other guys ring or no ring.


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valade16
03-19-2019, 06:38 PM
When was he a chocker? He was a better playoff performer then the other guys ring or no ring.

I'm not saying he was a choker, only that he had that label. He got the label after the 06 Finals and then losing to GS as the 1 seed the next year followed by early playoff exits the next 3 years. He was unfairly labelled someone who couldn't get it done, soft, a choker, etc. until he won in 11.

ewing
03-19-2019, 06:49 PM
I'm not saying he was a choker, only that he had that label. He got the label after the 06 Finals and then losing to GS as the 1 seed the next year followed by early playoff exits the next 3 years. He was unfairly labelled someone who couldn't get it done, soft, a choker, etc. until he won in 11.

People did unfairly label him after the GS loss bc they were an 8 seed. The 06 finals was a joke.


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Chronz
03-19-2019, 06:54 PM
Are you kidding me, we would be talking about that game 7 against the Spurs the same way we talk about Brons vengeance against the Celtics in G6.

Heres a thought, what if he had won his MVP year instead of being ousted in R.1 or to put it more succinctly, what if he didn't have Avery Johnson screwing his team over and facing the Clips like the basketball gods intended instead?

On topic, yeah this PF convo would be alot easier with 2 rings. Even an offensively gifted PF ahead of his time can sneak one ring in without being much of a winner (see Elvin Hayes) but to win 2? Yeah that would cement him above all the glamor forwards from the 80's/90's save for Bird.

valade16
03-19-2019, 06:56 PM
People did unfairly label him after the GS loss bc they were an 8 seed. The 06 finals was a joke.

I think it was also that they were back to back. Heat come back and win thanks to Wade's heroics (refs, cough). Then the very next year he loses in the first round? It was then that people started saying he couldn't win the big one.

Chronz
03-19-2019, 07:22 PM
I think it was also that they were back to back. Heat come back and win thanks to Wade's heroics (refs, cough). Then the very next year he loses in the first round? It was then that people started saying he couldn't win the big one.

Twas fukd up cuz they tend to ignore the special circumstances that played into that 8th seed upset. Some of which have happened before with that very same coach in a very similar setting (its unnerving how often NBA history repeats itself). Im so glad Dirk had that one miraculous year and in a way, Im glad Cuban never gave him a chance to defend that title. Dirk won a title post prime like Jerry West IMO. I know for a fact Dirk considers his series against those Spurs his best ever.

Mr.B
03-20-2019, 01:46 AM
I think it was also that they were back to back. Heat come back and win thanks to Wade's heroics (refs, cough). Then the very next year he loses in the first round? It was then that people started saying he couldn't win the big one.

Dirk and the Mavs were robbed in that series. The fix was definitely in.

hidalgo
03-20-2019, 01:50 AM
i think he's already the 2nd best PF ever

YAALREADYKNO
03-20-2019, 12:40 PM
Would he be unanimously considered the 2nd greatest PF of all time? As it stands, he is in the top tier of PF's in contention for the honor with KG, Karl Malone, and Charles Barkley.


Yes, but I believe heís achieved enough to warrant that title already

WaDe03
03-22-2019, 10:15 AM
Mavs had no one that could hold Wades dick on defense. If you canít guard youíre going to foul. That simple.

WaDe03
03-22-2019, 10:15 AM
Dumb ****s.

Redrum187
03-22-2019, 12:48 PM
Mavs had no one that could hold Wades dick on defense. If you canít guard youíre going to foul. That simple.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2744705-disgraced-former-ref-tim-donaghy-says-mavericks-were-screwed-out-of-2006-title

Go ahead and say, "He was a crooked ref, why would you trust him?" as your defense. He was crooked and owned it after he went to prison for it. I was in my senior year of college when the series was going on, and I had a family of "HEAT" fans that absolutely hated Dirk and worshiped Wade more than you. They laughed and celebrated when Miami won, but a couple of weeks later... they admitted the game appeared to be lopsided in the officiating and that Dallas was robbed but they didn't care. Then in 2011, when the Mavericks got their revenge and there was enough video proof to show phantom call after phantom call on Wade, they congratulated me (as if I was a member of the team lol) and said "Dirk should have two...". It's nice knowing some fans can be objective in spite of being absolute homers for their team. I know many Laker fans who feel the league robbed the Kings in 2000. Does it take away from the Lakers greatness? Naw, not really. They won multiple championships and were a great team in spite of the 2000 fix.

What's interesting though... if the fix wasn't put in place in 2006, Wade would not only be missing a league MVP but his only FMVP. A top 25 player not having either would be something.

valade16
03-22-2019, 01:13 PM
What's interesting is looking at the "Top 5" PFs regular season advanced lines compared to their playoff advanced lines:

Duncan:
Season: 24.2 PER | .551 TS% | .209 WS/48 | 5.5 BPM
Playoffs: 24.3 PER | .548 TS% | .194 WS/48 | 5.9 BPM

Barkley:
Season: 24.6 PER | .612 TS% | .216 WS/48 | 7.4 BPM
Playoffs: 24.2 PER | .584 TS% | .193 WS/48 | 7.3 BPM

Dirk:
Season: 22.5 PER | .577 TS% | .194 WS/48 | 3.2 BPM
Playoffs: 23.8 PER | .577 TS% | .188 WS/48 | 4.0 BPM

Malone:
Season: 23.9 PER | .577 TS% | .205 WS/48 | 5.4 BPM
Playoffs: 21.1 PER | .526 TS% | .140 WS/48 | 3.6 BPM

KG:
Season: 22.7 PER | .546 TS% | .182 WS/48 | 5.4 BPM
Playoffs: 21.1 PER | .525 TS% | .149 WS/48 | 4.6 BPM

Chronz
03-22-2019, 03:00 PM
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2744705-disgraced-former-ref-tim-donaghy-says-mavericks-were-screwed-out-of-2006-title

Go ahead and say, "He was a crooked ref, why would you trust him?" as your defense. He was crooked and owned it after he went to prison for it. I was in my senior year of college when the series was going on, and I had a family of "HEAT" fans that absolutely hated Dirk and worshiped Wade more than you. They laughed and celebrated when Miami won, but a couple of weeks later... they admitted the game appeared to be lopsided in the officiating and that Dallas was robbed but they didn't care. Then in 2011, when the Mavericks got their revenge and there was enough video proof to show phantom call after phantom call on Wade, they congratulated me (as if I was a member of the team lol) and said "Dirk should have two...". It's nice knowing some fans can be objective in spite of being absolute homers for their team. I know many Laker fans who feel the league robbed the Kings in 2000. Does it take away from the Lakers greatness? Naw, not really. They won multiple championships and were a great team in spite of the 2000 fix.

What's interesting though... if the fix wasn't put in place in 2006, Wade would not only be missing a league MVP but his only FMVP. A top 25 player not having either would be something.

Define owned up to it because hes denied fixing ever since, has lied incessently and I dont think he went to prison for what you may think, tho I have to look up the specifics of the case. I do remember his own chronies noticing the games he recommended where he didn't ref were basically a loss for them.

Living in LA IDK of ANY that think the Kings fans got screwed, most of them tend to be knowledgeable and know a fairly reffed series ends the Kings much sooner. They both had their shots in G7 and one choked, the other stepped up and it wasn't 2000, it was 2001.

Yeah without the title it would be hard for most but I would do it, I do it for CP3 to a degree.

Chronz
03-22-2019, 03:06 PM
What's interesting is looking at the "Top 5" PFs regular season advanced lines compared to their playoff advanced lines:

Duncan:
Season: 24.2 PER | .551 TS% | .209 WS/48 | 5.5 BPM
Playoffs: 24.3 PER | .548 TS% | .194 WS/48 | 5.9 BPM

Barkley:
Season: 24.6 PER | .612 TS% | .216 WS/48 | 7.4 BPM
Playoffs: 24.2 PER | .584 TS% | .193 WS/48 | 7.3 BPM

Dirk:
Season: 22.5 PER | .577 TS% | .194 WS/48 | 3.2 BPM
Playoffs: 23.8 PER | .577 TS% | .188 WS/48 | 4.0 BPM

Malone:
Season: 23.9 PER | .577 TS% | .205 WS/48 | 5.4 BPM
Playoffs: 21.1 PER | .526 TS% | .140 WS/48 | 3.6 BPM

KG:
Season: 22.7 PER | .546 TS% | .182 WS/48 | 5.4 BPM
Playoffs: 21.1 PER | .525 TS% | .149 WS/48 | 4.6 BPM

That kind of analysis is always tricky but this pretty much jives with what I thought I was watching back then. Check out Elvin Hayes stats, you would come away thinking he raised his game incredibly but I always hear/read of him as a choker. I know he sucked in the Finals so thats prolly where it came from.

Quinnsanity
03-22-2019, 03:17 PM
We also sort of have to ask, if he had won in 2006, does he win in 2011? I think the drive that comes from losing that way means a lot (ditto the 2014 Spurs), and even if it didn't, the 2006 Mavs winning the tltle probably changes the way that they construct their roster moving forward. Maybe they have to make bigger financial commitments to Josh Howard and Jason Terry. Maybe they don't get knocked out by the Warriors in '07. Honestly, one title feels right for Dirk.

valade16
03-22-2019, 03:46 PM
That kind of analysis is always tricky but this pretty much jives with what I thought I was watching back then. Check out Elvin Hayes stats, you would come away thinking he raised his game incredibly but I always hear/read of him as a choker. I know he sucked in the Finals so thats prolly where it came from.

Another bizarre one is IT. His BPM in the playoffs skyrockets to one of the better ones all-time. I know he was considered clutch but advanced stats "nerds" seem to revile him. What's even weirder is I don't know why BPM goes up so much for him, his scoring rates and efficiency are not too far off his regular season totals.

Mr.B
03-23-2019, 12:08 PM
We also sort of have to ask, if he had won in 2006, does he win in 2011? I think the drive that comes from losing that way means a lot (ditto the 2014 Spurs), and even if it didn't, the 2006 Mavs winning the tltle probably changes the way that they construct their roster moving forward. Maybe they have to make bigger financial commitments to Josh Howard and Jason Terry. Maybe they don't get knocked out by the Warriors in '07. Honestly, one title feels right for Dirk.

I donít know that they would have built the team any differently. I donít think the commitments to Howard or Terry would have been any different. Terry would have still been given a long term deal and Howard had other issues off the court that the team was not happy with. I think Cuban would have still traded for Kidd and Chandler. And the addition of Kidd would have still led to the replacement of Avery Johnson for Carlisle.

WaDe03
03-26-2019, 10:08 PM
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2744705-disgraced-former-ref-tim-donaghy-says-mavericks-were-screwed-out-of-2006-title

Go ahead and say, "He was a crooked ref, why would you trust him?" as your defense. He was crooked and owned it after he went to prison for it. I was in my senior year of college when the series was going on, and I had a family of "HEAT" fans that absolutely hated Dirk and worshiped Wade more than you. They laughed and celebrated when Miami won, but a couple of weeks later... they admitted the game appeared to be lopsided in the officiating and that Dallas was robbed but they didn't care. Then in 2011, when the Mavericks got their revenge and there was enough video proof to show phantom call after phantom call on Wade, they congratulated me (as if I was a member of the team lol) and said "Dirk should have two...". It's nice knowing some fans can be objective in spite of being absolute homers for their team. I know many Laker fans who feel the league robbed the Kings in 2000. Does it take away from the Lakers greatness? Naw, not really. They won multiple championships and were a great team in spite of the 2000 fix.

What's interesting though... if the fix wasn't put in place in 2006, Wade would not only be missing a league MVP but his only FMVP. A top 25 player not having either would be something.

Show video of all the phantom fouls youíre talking about please. Thanks!

hidalgo
03-27-2019, 07:32 AM
Dirk's playoff numbers are Godly. he really went nuclear in the playoffs