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View Full Version : Defense Only: Rudy Gobert or Dwight Howard



Redrum187
03-12-2019, 09:16 PM
1.) In their first 6 seasons, who was the superior defender? In their peaks, who do you expect would be considered the superior defender?

2.) How much better was Dwight offensively in his first 6 seasons if any at all?

3.) When Gobert enters his prime, who do you think will be the superior player considering offense and defense?

4.) If Gobert's prime is equivalent to his current season, which player would you rather have for 6 years?

A few question, the first being the one I think about regularly. Answer any/all. :D

YAALREADYKNO
03-13-2019, 12:36 AM
1.) In their first 6 seasons, who was the superior defender? In their peaks, who do you expect would be considered the superior defender?

2.) How much better was Dwight offensively in his first 6 seasons if any at all?

3.) When Gobert enters his prime, who do you think will be the superior player considering offense and defense?

4.) If Gobert's prime is equivalent to his current season, which player would you rather have for 6 years?

A few question, the first being the one I think about regularly. Answer any/all. :D

1. Dwight
2. A “washed up” Dwight still put up 16ppg for the Hornets last year
3. Dwight
4. Dwight not even close

Lakers + Giants
03-13-2019, 02:01 AM
Dwight was a top 3 player in the league. Haven't looked at the numbers but I'd say peak dwight rather easily tbh.

More-Than-Most
03-13-2019, 03:06 AM
the topic is Defense only..... its gobert pretty easily. Howard was a great defender as well but gobert to me is the more versatile defender

tp13baby
03-13-2019, 10:01 AM
Defense- Gobert. Per 100, Per 36 is a better comparison in averages. Gobert is more versatile. The centers he guards are way more diverse. I’m talking the Towns, Jokic, Cousins, Davis’s of the world. Guys who play both outside and inside. He is likely to finish with more all defense awards too. Hobert is the better rim protector too. Howard was a stud no doubt.

Offense- Howard. Rudy is so damn efficient, more than Howard ever was. Howard’s offensive game was better, he was asked to do more.

Prime Howard was at one point a top 3 player in the league. Rudy probably won’t reach that which is no discredit. I think Rudy has the better career overall since Howard had an enigma and character issues. Rudy just works harder, has the better attitude while Dwight coasted through his career.

Scoots
03-13-2019, 10:57 AM
Gobert all day every day. And he's not an *******.

valade16
03-13-2019, 11:52 AM
Dwight led the Magic to:

07: 6th Drtg (104.1)
08: 6th Drtg (105.5)
09: 1st Drtg (101.9)
10: 3rd Drtg (103.3)
11: 3rd Drtg (102.0)

He only played 54 games in 12 and they were 12th in Drtg and in 2013 when he left they were 25th.

Gobert has led the Jazz to:

15: 14th Drtg (104.9)
16: 7th Drtg (103.9)
17: 3rd Drtg (105.3)
18: 2nd Drtg (103.9)
19: 3rd Drtg (106.1)

103.4 to 104.8.

Now that's only one piece, but Dwight certainly anchored better defenses than Rudy thus far.

ewing
03-13-2019, 12:39 PM
This is an interesting one. I think it depends on what era they are playing. If they were both playing right now I think it might be Rudy. If they were both playing when D12 entered the league I think it's D12. Remember when D12 was in Orlando you couldn't get away with playing two softies like Hedo and Lewis at the forwards unless you had a Howard to dominate the glass and the paint. While Rudy can rim protect I don't think he could be the physical presence and rebounding force that Dwight brought all by himself.

On the other hand I question how prime Dwight would do getting pulled away from the bucket more today.

I'm going to give the edge to prime Howard but I'm not sure

valade16
03-13-2019, 12:45 PM
This is an interesting one. I think it depends on what era they are playing. If they were both playing right now I think it might be Rudy. If they were both playing when D12 entered the league I think it's D12. Remember when D12 was in Orlando you couldn't get away with playing two softies like Hedo and Lewis at the forwards unless you had a Howard to dominate the glass and the paint. While Rudy can rim protect I don't think he could be the physical presence and rebounding force that Dwight brought all by himself.

On the other hand I question how prime Dwight would do getting pulled away from the bucket more today.

I'm going to give the edge to prime Howard but I'm not sure

Agreed.

Hawkeye15
03-13-2019, 02:00 PM
Dwight led the Magic to:

07: 6th Drtg (104.1)
08: 6th Drtg (105.5)
09: 1st Drtg (101.9)
10: 3rd Drtg (103.3)
11: 3rd Drtg (102.0)

He only played 54 games in 12 and they were 12th in Drtg and in 2013 when he left they were 25th.

Gobert has led the Jazz to:

15: 14th Drtg (104.9)
16: 7th Drtg (103.9)
17: 3rd Drtg (105.3)
18: 2nd Drtg (103.9)
19: 3rd Drtg (106.1)

103.4 to 104.8.

Now that's only one piece, but Dwight certainly anchored better defenses than Rudy thus far.

how are those numbers compared to league average each year? Also, Dwight was leading great defenses in the east during a pretty down period, ie, he wasn't facing the offenses Gobert does. Not that neither faced only their respective conferences, but Dwight had a heavy does of ****** eastern teams yearly to pad those stats.

Hawkeye15
03-13-2019, 02:01 PM
This is an interesting one. I think it depends on what era they are playing. If they were both playing right now I think it might be Rudy. If they were both playing when D12 entered the league I think it's D12. Remember when D12 was in Orlando you couldn't get away with playing two softies like Hedo and Lewis at the forwards unless you had a Howard to dominate the glass and the paint. While Rudy can rim protect I don't think he could be the physical presence and rebounding force that Dwight brought all by himself.

On the other hand I question how prime Dwight would do getting pulled away from the bucket more today.

I'm going to give the edge to prime Howard but I'm not sure

interesting line of thought. I tend to agree some.

Chronz
03-13-2019, 02:03 PM
I remember a different Dwight than you guys, he was light on his feet and way more athletic than Gobert.

ewing
03-13-2019, 02:06 PM
I remember a different Dwight than you guys, he was light on his feet and way more athletic than Gobert.

I am remembering that too which makes me think he might have been able to get out at least as well as Rudy but lateral quickness/awareness is a different beast. I'm not sure

Chronz
03-13-2019, 02:08 PM
Wheres manrammer when you need him. I will say, Goberts willingness to play a strict team role helps him offensively, Dwight got in his way alot throughout his career but peak offense, he had it for a stretch.

IndyRealist
03-13-2019, 02:41 PM
Dwight led the Magic to:

07: 6th Drtg (104.1)
08: 6th Drtg (105.5)
09: 1st Drtg (101.9)
10: 3rd Drtg (103.3)
11: 3rd Drtg (102.0)

He only played 54 games in 12 and they were 12th in Drtg and in 2013 when he left they were 25th.

Gobert has led the Jazz to:

15: 14th Drtg (104.9)
16: 7th Drtg (103.9)
17: 3rd Drtg (105.3)
18: 2nd Drtg (103.9)
19: 3rd Drtg (106.1)

103.4 to 104.8.

Now that's only one piece, but Dwight certainly anchored better defenses than Rudy thus far.

That's the danger of comparing eras. 14th in 2015 would have been like 5th in 2008. You have to look at everything else going on in the league.

valade16
03-13-2019, 02:58 PM
That's the danger of comparing eras. 14th in 2015 would have been like 5th in 2008. You have to look at everything else going on in the league.

Agreed, which is why I didn't just compare their ranking in their year, I actually included the Drtg stat they achieved, so that if they were 3rd in 2008 but that was equivalent to 15th in 2015 we could all see.

I know what I'm about son.

tp13baby
03-13-2019, 03:43 PM
Agreed, which is why I didn't just compare their ranking in their year, I actually included the Drtg stat they achieved, so that if they were 3rd in 2008 but that was equivalent to 15th in 2015 we could all see.

I know what I'm about son.

No you don’t. The defensive rating stat is still looked at differently by era too. The claim Howard anchored better defenses has a ton of fallacies.

The game has changed, the center position has changed, the pace has changed. All change defensive rating. So to compare the rating side by side tells you nothing. The rankings year by year, where Howard got to play against the east, Gobert against the West doesn’t tell us much either. Could Howard play out, sure, not like Gobert can.

Hawkeye15
03-13-2019, 04:12 PM
No you don’t. The defensive rating stat is still looked at differently by era too. The claim Howard anchored better defenses has a ton of fallacies.

The game has changed, the center position has changed, the pace has changed. All change defensive rating. So to compare the rating side by side tells you nothing. The rankings year by year, where Howard got to play against the east, Gobert against the West doesn’t tell us much either. Could Howard play out, sure, not like Gobert can.

Eh, rim protection is still simplistic in nature. As long as we can set a baseline to measure we can look at numbers. But like any stat, they don't tell the whole story obviously.

Just eye level, I want to say Dwight was a stronger influence, due to the game still including midrange jumpers in his heyday, he was able to effect shots more. And in fact, he had a couple of putrid defenders on his team that played heavy minutes, who got by because teams were scared to even attack Dwight.

Gobert is the best rim protector in the game today, but I am not sure he strikes the same level of fear into teams, who just employ more spacing now regardless.

Chronz
03-13-2019, 04:37 PM
Agreed, which is why I didn't just compare their ranking in their year, I actually included the Drtg stat they achieved, so that if they were 3rd in 2008 but that was equivalent to 15th in 2015 we could all see.

I know what I'm about son.

You've both confused me

Team rates over those same years given their leagues

Dwight
07) 2.4 PTS better than league average defensively
08) 2.0 PTS
09) 6.4 PTS
10) 4.3 PTS
11) 5.3 PTS
2012 - Dwight plays half the year and the team collapses defensively by 6.8 pts the rest of the way.


Gobert
15) 0.7 PTS
16) 2.5 PTS
17) 3.5 PTS
18) 4.7 PTS
19) 4.0 PTS

We should do on/off splits just for kicks

valade16
03-13-2019, 06:04 PM
No you don’t. The defensive rating stat is still looked at differently by era too. The claim Howard anchored better defenses has a ton of fallacies.

The game has changed, the center position has changed, the pace has changed. All change defensive rating. So to compare the rating side by side tells you nothing. The rankings year by year, where Howard got to play against the east, Gobert against the West doesn’t tell us much either. Could Howard play out, sure, not like Gobert can.

Except none of your fallacies actually refute my assertion. They are simply variables, ones which you have not shown how they effect the stats in question nor have you made any observations based on those variables.

All you've done is point out a bunch of variables in an attempt to say "answering the question isn't that simple" as if I didn't say this in my initial post:

Now that's only one piece


I know what I'm about son. Either take a position or stay on the sidelines.