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View Full Version : Is John stockton the most underrated all timer ever?



More-Than-Most
01-28-2019, 04:49 AM
It seems like all the old school players consider him a top 5 guy ever... when they put together their top 5 stockton is always there... His statistical offensive out put was amazing but his defense was insane. I personally think Magic and CP3 are better but a guy like magic couldnt come close to the defense stockton had... Is Stockton underrated? Would he excel in todays NBA?


Example... Gary Payton who was an insane defender says he was harder to guard than MJ.

Barkley- Stockton is one of the top 5 players ever that i played against

Chris Webber- Stockton was the baddest man in the world

Steven Nash- He is the best PG ever



Some go on to say that he made malone and if not for stockton malone wouldnt be anywhere near the player he is...


Here is a clip of peoples opinions

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pB4lYjpDLYk


What would John average in todays NBA? Would he instantly be the best PG in the game?

More-Than-Most
01-28-2019, 05:18 AM
this is a guy who shot 52/38/83 for his career while averaging just about 13/11 and was one of if not the best defensive point guards ever.

JAZZNC
01-28-2019, 09:26 AM
He was a better player than the guy who got the MVP awards for the Jazz. He was a great, great player. I think he would be even better in today's game. As pick and roll centric as the league is, he would eat the defense alive. Was a great decision maker and much better offensively than people give him credit for. I think the fact that he looks like your AP History teacher leads people to believe he wasn't a monster of a player. I believe it was Webber that said him looking unassuming was a big weapon because people didnt take him seriously. He was also clutch as hell. We'll probably never see another PG like him again. I don't care what stats you wanna throw out there, if I had to choose between having CP3 or Stockton for their respective career I'm taking Stockton. I think hes the best PG ever if you remove the guy who could also start at center haha!

Vee-Rex
01-28-2019, 09:39 AM
Extremely underrated for sure.

ewing
01-28-2019, 09:47 AM
He was a better player than the guy who got the MVP awards for the Jazz. He was a great, great player. I think he would be even better in today's game. As pick and roll centric as the league is, he would eat the defense alive. Was a great decision maker and much better offensively than people give him credit for. I think the fact that he looks like your AP History teacher leads people to believe he wasn't a monster of a player. I believe it was Webber that said him looking unassuming was a big weapon because people didnt take him seriously. He was also clutch as hell. We'll probably never see another PG like him again. I don't care what stats you wanna throw out there, if I had to choose between having CP3 or Stockton for their respective career I'm taking Stockton. I think hes the best PG ever if you remove the guy who could also start at center haha!

That might be true. I don't agree with MTM premise that he is the most underrated all timer ever though. I feel like Stockton is generally as top 3 PG in the history of the game. I think Moses Malone gets over looked. Reggie Miller and Jack Sickma are other guys that come to mind

Heediot
01-28-2019, 09:49 AM
That might be true. I don't agree with MTM premise that he is the most underrated all timer ever though. I feel like Stockton is generally as top 3 PG in the history of the game. I think Moses Malone gets over looked. Reggie Miller and Jack Sickma are other guys that come to mind

Yeah I think Reggie is under-rated. He was clutch and savvy as ****. He was under-whelming athletically, but he played the game with his shooting and ball smarts.

JAZZNC
01-28-2019, 10:00 AM
That might be true. I don't agree with MTM premise that he is the most underrated all timer ever though. I feel like Stockton is generally as top 3 PG in the history of the game. I think Moses Malone gets over looked. Reggie Miller and Jack Sickma are other guys that come to mind

Reggie just never put up those eye popping stats that people love. Sickma is a good one too! And for an MVP/Champion Moses doesn't get a lot of love.

Scoots
01-28-2019, 10:50 AM
That might be true. I don't agree with MTM premise that he is the most underrated all timer ever though. I feel like Stockton is generally as top 3 PG in the history of the game. I think Moses Malone gets over looked. Reggie Miller and Jack Sickma are other guys that come to mind

This. Stockton is appreciated. My favorite thing is that he HURT people with screens as a PG, and almost never missed games. Bad bad man.

Hawkeye15
01-28-2019, 11:10 AM
before I answer that, where is he ranked?

Hawkeye15
01-28-2019, 11:11 AM
That might be true. I don't agree with MTM premise that he is the most underrated all timer ever though. I feel like Stockton is generally as top 3 PG in the history of the game. I think Moses Malone gets over looked. Reggie Miller and Jack Sickma are other guys that come to mind

he is the guy I think of instantly when it comes to most underrated player ever.

Miller comes to mind for most overrated ever haha.

dhopisthename
01-28-2019, 02:01 PM
he is the guy I think of instantly when it comes to most underrated player ever.

Miller comes to mind for most overrated ever haha.

agreed on both. As for stockton i think he would be interesting in todays NBA since he was a pretty good shooter. in today's Nba he is shooting the 3 at least six times a game. he might start putting up 25/11 a game. I think overall he is rated fine

Hawkeye15
01-28-2019, 03:25 PM
agreed on both. As for stockton i think he would be interesting in todays NBA since he was a pretty good shooter. in today's Nba he is shooting the 3 at least six times a game. he might start putting up 25/11 a game. I think overall he is rated fine

I just wonder where is all. Some basketball fans have Zeke ahead of him for example, which is outright laughable. But some have Stockton the 2nd best PG ever, behind only Magic. I think he is far closer to the latter, and probably a top 25 player ever.

dhopisthename
01-28-2019, 04:09 PM
I just wonder where is all. Some basketball fans have Zeke ahead of him for example, which is outright laughable. But some have Stockton the 2nd best PG ever, behind only Magic. I think he is far closer to the latter, and probably a top 25 player ever.

one of the problems with an kind of all time list is that some value peak and some value longevity. Some of his career stats are just absurd and might not ever be broken. for reference to break his assists record you would have to play 20 seasons at 82 games and average 9.6 assists to break it. He never put up 20 ppg though and never won a championship. I dont' see how you can put Isiah Thomas anywhere near him though. he doesn't have the stats or the super peak.

Hawkeye15
01-28-2019, 04:12 PM
one of the problems with an kind of all time list is that some value peak and some value longevity. Some of his career stats are just absurd and might not ever be broken. for reference to break his assists record you would have to play 20 seasons at 82 games and average 9.6 assists to break it. He never put up 20 ppg though and never won a championship. I dont' see how you can put Isiah Thomas anywhere near him though. he doesn't have the stats or the super peak.

by stats alone, Stockton has a case as the best PG to play, but Magic's playoff success makes up for the gap in stats, clearly. Dude, I have seen Zeke, and even Payton, or Oscar, put ahead of Stockton on some lists, which blows my mind.

I also remember the hoopla over Stockton making the Dream Team over Zeke, even though he was clearly a better player..

FlashBolt
01-28-2019, 04:31 PM
Stockton is usually ranked 2-3 in the NBA All-Time PG's. That will change with Curry coming into his own but that's not underrated at all. Without Magic, he'd been the best PG of All-Time up until Curry.

TrueFan420
01-28-2019, 04:33 PM
Stockton is def on the all time underrated list.

R. Johnson#3
01-28-2019, 09:39 PM
He was a better player than the guy who got the MVP awards for the Jazz. He was a great, great player. I think he would be even better in today's game. As pick and roll centric as the league is, he would eat the defense alive. Was a great decision maker and much better offensively than people give him credit for. I think the fact that he looks like your AP History teacher leads people to believe he wasn't a monster of a player. I believe it was Webber that said him looking unassuming was a big weapon because people didnt take him seriously. He was also clutch as hell. We'll probably never see another PG like him again. I don't care what stats you wanna throw out there, if I had to choose between having CP3 or Stockton for their respective career I'm taking Stockton. I think hes the best PG ever if you remove the guy who could also start at center haha!

Good point on the PnR. Defences knew it was coming yet Stock would always get the ball to Malone. Probably the best PG you could have running the PnR.

I agree with everything in your post. The Stockton I grew up watching was the older version during MJ's 2nd 3peat but the things you said about his offence are true. He wouldn't shoot a bunch but when he did he was usually wide open or driving a pretty open lane to the net. The guy wouldn't do any fancy dribble moves and had little to no flare but he always made the right decision. Watching videos from his earlier days and you could see he was tough as nails and quick as lightning. I always thought Stockton was still fast for a guy in his mid 30's but the young Stock was unbelievably quick.

All in all, I don't think I've ever seen a PG who I'd trust more with the ball in his hands.

TakeYourL
01-28-2019, 09:54 PM
Stockton is kind of a picture perfect pg for that era.

He is one of my favorite players of all time, but dude had no good to moves, so it's hard for me to call him underrated.

Miller on the other hand I agree is greatly underrated, he would average close to 30 in todays NBA.

Scoots
01-28-2019, 10:33 PM
Stockton is kind of a picture perfect pg for that era.

He is one of my favorite players of all time, but dude had no good to moves, so it's hard for me to call him underrated.

Miller on the other hand I agree is greatly underrated, he would average close to 30 in todays NBA.

Stockton had go to moves ... he set high post screens that hurt bigs to get Malone open for that 15 foot shot over and over and over, and if the big ran away from the screen Stock would hit that shot at a very high rate. One of the most automatic scoring moves in NBA history.

Jamiecballer
01-28-2019, 11:14 PM
It seems like all the old school players consider him a top 5 guy ever... when they put together their top 5 stockton is always there... His statistical offensive out put was amazing but his defense was insane. I personally think Magic and CP3 are better but a guy like magic couldnt come close to the defense stockton had... Is Stockton underrated? Would he excel in todays NBA?


Example... Gary Payton who was an insane defender says he was harder to guard than MJ.

Barkley- Stockton is one of the top 5 players ever that i played against

Chris Webber- Stockton was the baddest man in the world

Steven Nash- He is the best PG ever



Some go on to say that he made malone and if not for stockton malone wouldnt be anywhere near the player he is...


Here is a clip of peoples opinions

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pB4lYjpDLYk


What would John average in todays NBA? Would he instantly be the best PG in the game?I actually like that name and think it fits. John Average. Pretty much sums up why he is underrated too.

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Hawkeye15
01-28-2019, 11:58 PM
Stockton is kind of a picture perfect pg for that era.

He is one of my favorite players of all time, but dude had no good to moves, so it's hard for me to call him underrated.

Miller on the other hand I agree is greatly underrated, he would average close to 30 in todays NBA.

How does speculating on Miller today matter though? How was he underrated? Been through this with ewing, but he is a 40 year Knicks fan, he has a reason to overrate the **** out if Miller. Dude made like 5 ASGs, three all NBA 3rd teams, and while good at his job, was a pure efficiency scorer. Klay Thompson meets Kevin Martin basically. His Garden heroics get him so overrated.

FlashBolt
01-29-2019, 12:07 AM
How does speculating on Miller today matter though? How was he underrated? Been through this with ewing, but he is a 40 year Knicks fan, he has a reason to overrate the **** out if Miller. Dude made like 5 ASGs, three all NBA 3rd teams, and while good at his job, was a pure efficiency scorer. Klay Thompson meets Kevin Martin basically. His Garden heroics get him so overrated.

Jordan made Reggie. It's a bit like Paul Pierce. Fantastic player but people kept using the Pierce vs LeBron rivalry and it helped Pierce significantly to always be mentioned alongside LeBron.

IKnowHoops
01-29-2019, 02:01 AM
David Robinson is far more underrated as he was way better and more impactful than John Stockton yet some will disagree...so itís Drob. And Stockton was not better than Karl Malone

valade16
01-29-2019, 01:39 PM
John Stockton is a great case for how we should value longevity. Serious question, at their peak, when healthy, was John Stockton as good as Penny? Because I think for the couple years Penny came into his own before his injuries, it was generally considered Penny was the man.

TakeYourL
01-29-2019, 02:38 PM
How does speculating on Miller today matter though? How was he underrated? Been through this with ewing, but he is a 40 year Knicks fan, he has a reason to overrate the **** out if Miller. Dude made like 5 ASGs, three all NBA 3rd teams, and while good at his job, was a pure efficiency scorer. Klay Thompson meets Kevin Martin basically. His Garden heroics get him so overrated.

You make good points.

But I think what his stats would be today is relevant because he would shoot 4 times the amount of 3 pointers, and how good people think he is would be greatly improved based on points averged alone.

valade16
01-29-2019, 02:54 PM
You make good points.

But I think what his stats would be today is relevant because he would shoot 4 times the amount of 3 pointers, and how good people think he is would be greatly improved based on points averged alone.

Yes Reggie taking triple or quadruple the number of 3's he took would definitely increase his scoring. I also think we are under appreciating how efficient he was even without the modern volume of 3 pointers. He is 9th all-time in career TS%, and the only other player in the Top 10 who was not primarily a low post player is Steph Curry.

I get the Klay Thompson comparisons, but Klay Thompson is 72nd all-time in TS% and that's with taking like 8 3-pointers a game.

I think Reggie Miller is remarkable in how insanely efficient he was at scoring, and is certainly a cut above the simple "high volume 3-point shooters" class of guys like Klay Thompson.

ewing
01-29-2019, 02:55 PM
You make good points.

But I think what his stats would be today is relevant because he would shoot 4 times the amount of 3 pointers, and how good people think he is would be greatly improved based on points averged alone.

I don't think it matter to the point I was making and Hawk's counter. I think Reggie's impact during his career is underrated. Hawk's thinks the opposite and compares him to Martin and Thompson to make his point. The thing is Hawk's wrong LOL. Reggie Miller averaged similar scoring numbers as those guys while being the main option of a team, the engine that made that team's offense go, he played in a slower paced era on one of the slowest paced teams in the league. I think he is underrated bc there is what i see as a false narrative about this game. The Thompson/Martin comparison plays into this. He was not just a catch and shoot guy (he averaged 6 or 7 free throws a game through out his prime, had a nice post game, and did take people of the dribble even if he wasn't breaking ankles doing it), he didn't just have some moments like Robert Horry- he played 144 playoff games and all his stats went up plus he was clutch as ****, he also wasn't a bad defender. He wasn't John Stockton but he is closer to John Stockton then Kevin Martin

IndyRealist
01-29-2019, 04:14 PM
I generally stay out of Reggie arguments because I'm biased, but the man led a #1 offense being the only real scorer on the team. His efficiency on volume was absurd. The fact that people don't think he should be in the HOF essentially proves he's underrated.

FlashBolt
01-29-2019, 04:17 PM
I generally stay out of Reggie arguments because I'm biased, but the man led a #1 offense being the only real scorer on the team. His efficiency on volume was absurd. The fact that people don't think he should be in the HOF essentially proves he's underrated.

That's true. He's a HOF'er to me but with the volume of threes and proficiency of shooters today, I feel it gives the impression that Reggie is overrated when during his time, it was very efficient.

Chronz
01-29-2019, 04:55 PM
Stockton was like a cross between CP3 defensively (only 3 inches taller) and Nash Offensively. Prolly the best true PG ever, I think we should put Magic in his own position or just put him where he prolly would play most today, somewhere in the frontcourt.

TakeYourL
01-29-2019, 05:01 PM
Stockton was like a cross between CP3 defensively (only 3 inches taller) and Nash Offensively. Prolly the best true PG ever, I think we should put Magic in his own position or just put him where he prolly would play most today, somewhere in the frontcourt.

3 inches is a lot. Doesn't sound like a lot but seeing it is a big difference

TakeYourL
01-29-2019, 05:04 PM
I don't think it matter to the point I was making and Hawk's counter. I think Reggie's impact during his career is underrated. Hawk's thinks the opposite and compares him to Martin and Thompson to make his point. The thing is Hawk's wrong LOL. Reggie Miller averaged similar scoring numbers as those guys while being the main option of a team, the engine that made that team's offense go, he played in a slower paced era on one of the slowest paced teams in the league. I think he is underrated bc there is what i see as a false narrative about this game. The Thompson/Martin comparison plays into this. He was not just a catch and shoot guy (he averaged 6 or 7 free throws a game through out his prime, had a nice post game, and did take people of the dribble even if he wasn't breaking ankles doing it), he didn't just have some moments like Robert Horry- he played 144 playoff games and all his stats went up plus he was clutch as ****, he also wasn't a bad defender. He wasn't John Stockton but he is closer to John Stockton then Kevin Martin

Quality post

ewing
01-29-2019, 09:57 PM
Stockton was like a cross between CP3 defensively (only 3 inches taller) and Nash Offensively. Prolly the best true PG ever, I think we should put Magic in his own position or just put him where he prolly would play most today, somewhere in the frontcourt.

I like the CP3 comparison


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JasonJohnHorn
01-30-2019, 05:04 PM
When I used to play basketball on the high school team, there was a guy. Amazing player. Easily the best amongst us. Even against guy we played, I never played against somebody so good. He could score at will. Nobody could guard him. But he wasn't the leading scorer on our team. He just knew how to cut the defense up and geth the ball to the best option.

When I watched Stockton, I had that same feeling. The guy could score at will. When you were guarding him, he was playing with the chess pieces around him, and you never knew what was about to happen. It was like he always ready to put you in checkmate and there wasn't anything you could do about it. But he was unselfish.

Other great point guards. They go iso, and it's one-on-one. The defender is trying to stop him from scoring. But with Stockton, it was like "How do you stop him from getting the ball to another guy to get a shot off and stop him from scoring." It was just crazy.

And his defense was crazy good.
You look back at those Utah teams... Ostertag? Starting C? And they still get through D-Rob, Shaq, and Hakeem in the same year? And back-to-back finals. I mean... 62-wins with Adam Keefe and Bryon Russell getting starting minutes with Ostertag? And Stockton was 35 years old then.

It's nuts what he did when you really stop to think about it.

Chronz
01-30-2019, 05:36 PM
I like the CP3 comparison


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You should like all of my post

IKnowHoops
01-30-2019, 06:59 PM
Yes Reggie taking triple or quadruple the number of 3's he took would definitely increase his scoring. I also think we are under appreciating how efficient he was even without the modern volume of 3 pointers. He is 9th all-time in career TS%, and the only other player in the Top 10 who was not primarily a low post player is Steph Curry.

I get the Klay Thompson comparisons, but Klay Thompson is 72nd all-time in TS% and that's with taking like 8 3-pointers a game.

I think Reggie Miller is remarkable in how insanely efficient he was at scoring, and is certainly a cut above the simple "high volume 3-point shooters" class of guys like Klay Thompson.

Very True...I didnít know this about Reggie

IKnowHoops
01-30-2019, 07:01 PM
Stockton was like a cross between CP3 defensively (only 3 inches taller) and Nash Offensively. Prolly the best true PG ever, I think we should put Magic in his own position or just put him where he prolly would play most today, somewhere in the frontcourt.

Heís not Nash offensively. Not even close. Nash would fade away on you with guys in his eye. Stockton wasnít that guy. He couldnít just go get his shot whenever he wanted to like Nash.

IKnowHoops
01-30-2019, 07:04 PM
When I used to play basketball on the high school team, there was a guy. Amazing player. Easily the best amongst us. Even against guy we played, I never played against somebody so good. He could score at will. Nobody could guard him. But he wasn't the leading scorer on our team. He just knew how to cut the defense up and geth the ball to the best option.

When I watched Stockton, I had that same feeling. The guy could score at will. When you were guarding him, he was playing with the chess pieces around him, and you never knew what was about to happen. It was like he always ready to put you in checkmate and there wasn't anything you could do about it. But he was unselfish.

Other great point guards. They go iso, and it's one-on-one. The defender is trying to stop him from scoring. But with Stockton, it was like "How do you stop him from getting the ball to another guy to get a shot off and stop him from scoring." It was just crazy.

And his defense was crazy good.
You look back at those Utah teams... Ostertag? Starting C? And they still get through D-Rob, Shaq, and Hakeem in the same year? And back-to-back finals. I mean... 62-wins with Adam Keefe and Bryon Russell getting starting minutes with Ostertag? And Stockton was 35 years old then.

It's nuts what he did when you really stop to think about it.

Horny was a beast. They had 3 all stars. David had himself.

Heediot
01-30-2019, 07:59 PM
Horny was a beast. They had 3 all stars. David had himself.

Sean Elliot was just as good, arguably better vs. an aging Hornacek (which he was in Utah). Utah did have the better big 3. But Spurs had more pieces vs. your giving credit for. Avery Johnson, Vinny, Rodman, Chuck Person, Terry Cumming and other at certain points.

Hawkeye15
01-30-2019, 09:03 PM
John Stockton is a great case for how we should value longevity. Serious question, at their peak, when healthy, was John Stockton as good as Penny? Because I think for the couple years Penny came into his own before his injuries, it was generally considered Penny was the man.

Well 10+ seasons of automatic all NBA production gives you a buge window to succeed. 2 years of elite just doesn't outweigh it unless the window just happened to hit at that exact time. Meaning, bigger window equals better chance.

Hawkeye15
01-30-2019, 09:05 PM
Heís not Nash offensively. Not even close. Nash would fade away on you with guys in his eye. Stockton wasnít that guy. He couldnít just go get his shot whenever he wanted to like Nash.

He was as good as Nash offensively. His penetration/finishing ability kills Nash, and he always ran a hyper efficient offense. If Stockton played in the modern era his scoring numbers dive up.

ewing
01-30-2019, 09:15 PM
You should like all of my post

It a good comparison and not one I had heard. You have your moments


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IKnowHoops
01-30-2019, 09:27 PM
He was as good as Nash offensively. His penetration/finishing ability kills Nash, and he always ran a hyper efficient offense. If Stockton played in the modern era his scoring numbers dive up.

Stockton was efficient, but when you average 15 pts a game itís not hard to be. Never seen Stockton making fade-away a with guys draped all over him: he just always made the right play

IKnowHoops
01-30-2019, 09:30 PM
Sean Elliot was just as good, arguably better vs. an aging Hornacek (which he was in Utah). Utah did have the better big 3. But Spurs had more pieces vs. your giving credit for. Avery Johnson, Vinny, Rodman, Chuck Person, Terry Cumming and other at certain points.

No way, Hornacek was better and much smarter. The rest of the team wasnít good, and Rodman was out of control and just quit during the Houston series. Refused to play

IndyRealist
01-30-2019, 09:36 PM
Stockton was efficient, but when you average 15 pts a game itís not hard to be. Never seen Stockton making fade-away a with guys draped all over him: he just always made the right play

That's not true at all. Volume has no negative correlation to efficiency. In fact it's slightly positive.

"A fade-away with guys draped all over him" is a bad shot. If you look at the ACTUAL percentages, and not just at the highlights of shots that went in, you'd see how terrible it is.

Heediot
01-30-2019, 09:37 PM
No way, Hornacek was better and much smarter. The rest of the team wasnít good, and Rodman was out of control and just quit during the Houston series. Refused to play

I think Sean was a nice piece but yea the rest were role players. It was like Hakeem though he had thorpe and a bunch of role guys and then Him and old Drexler. Drexler was still good though. But his first ship he didn't have any more talent vs. Admiral.,

FlashBolt
01-30-2019, 11:02 PM
Stockton was efficient, but when you average 15 pts a game itís not hard to be. Never seen Stockton making fade-away a with guys draped all over him: he just always made the right play

Nash wasn't exactly scoring the ball like MJ too, you know? Right along with Stockton's scoring average. The beauty of Stockton's game was, like you said, he made the right play.

Chronz
01-31-2019, 02:55 AM
Heís not Nash offensively. Not even close. Nash would fade away on you with guys in his eye. Stockton wasnít that guy. He couldnít just go get his shot whenever he wanted to like Nash.

He easily could tho, especially in nash's era. disagree with not even close, he's by far the closest. Who else comes close to having a similar offensive profile?

Chronz
01-31-2019, 02:57 AM
Stockton was efficient, but when you average 15 pts a game itís not hard to be. Never seen Stockton making fade-away a with guys draped all over him: he just always made the right play

Who was more efficient at his clip, if its soo easy

JAZZNC
01-31-2019, 09:32 AM
Who was more efficient at his clip, if its soo easy

He hates Stockton and wants to trash him any chance he gets. He'll never admit that Stockton is the far superior player to Nash.

ewing
01-31-2019, 10:12 AM
He hates Stockton and wants to trash him any chance he gets. He'll never admit that Stockton is the far superior player to Nash.

I actually like the CP3 comparison. Both feisty elite defenders (often accused of being dirty), both brilliant orchestrates in the half court, both underrated scorers and shooters b/c of there unselfishness, but neither ignited a fast break like Magic, Kidd, or Nash. I don't agree with the far superior comment but I think Nash has actually become underrated on this board. Everyone decided he didn't deserve his MVPs and then started acting like he wasn't great in his own right.

Oefarmy2005
01-31-2019, 10:36 AM
My two cents - I definitely feel like he is underrated. As other say, it's his unassuming appearance that cost him some recognition, but as a player he was an absolute beast. I'd say, as a pure PG running the team, he is the GOAT.

JAZZNC
01-31-2019, 10:59 AM
I actually like the CP3 comparison. Both feisty elite defenders (often accused of being dirty), both brilliant orchestrates in the half court, both underrated scorers and shooters b/c of there unselfishness, but neither ignited a fast break like Magic, Kidd, or Nash. I don't agree with the far superior comment but I think Nash has actually become underrated on this board. Everyone decided he didn't deserve his MVPs and then started acting like he wasn't great in his own right.

I just think when one guy plays one side of the ball that makes for a huge gap. Nash was phenomenal (I have no problem with his MVPs, he was the reason those Suns teams were so great), no doubt but he didn't play D and that matters. I think Stockton's fast break game is underrated because they weren't a fast break team like the teams Nash/Kidd/Magic lead. They didn't force it but Malone ran the court better than any big ever and when they got out on the break Stockton ran it as well as anybody, he loved the pull up 3 on the break and some of his passes (like that full court heave to Malone in the Finals off one dribble) I truly think only he could make. It wasn't the Showtime Lakers or the prime Kidd Nets (Jazz didnt have the players for that) but like anything else Stockton did it to perfection and made the right play.

And I like the CP3 comparison too. Very similar players.

Hawkeye15
01-31-2019, 11:03 AM
Stockton was efficient, but when you average 15 pts a game itís not hard to be. Never seen Stockton making fade-away a with guys draped all over him: he just always made the right play

you didn't watch enough of Stockton then....

also, Nash wasn't shooting with guys draped on him. And he wasn't a prolific scorer at all. Overall, Stockton is easily the better player, and matches Nash's offensive ability as well. Stockton was leading better offenses his first year as a starter than Nash might ever have done. Just a model of consistency, almost robotic.

Hawkeye15
01-31-2019, 11:05 AM
I actually like the CP3 comparison. Both feisty elite defenders (often accused of being dirty), both brilliant orchestrates in the half court, both underrated scorers and shooters b/c of there unselfishness, but neither ignited a fast break like Magic, Kidd, or Nash. I don't agree with the far superior comment but I think Nash has actually become underrated on this board. Everyone decided he didn't deserve his MVPs and then started acting like he wasn't great in his own right.

disagree with the fast break comment to a degree. Utah's offense wasn't predicated on getting out and running, that can't be put on John.

The CP3 comp is cool, but I have to chuck out the reminder that CP3 gets hurt tying his shoe, Stockton NEVER got hurt.

Hawkeye15
01-31-2019, 11:05 AM
My two cents - I definitely feel like he is underrated. As other say, it's his unassuming appearance that cost him some recognition, but as a player he was an absolute beast. I'd say, as a pure PG running the team, he is the GOAT.

yes. I would start any team I could assemble with him as my PG. He was as close to perfect as a PG can get.

valade16
01-31-2019, 01:14 PM
Well 10+ seasons of automatic all NBA production gives you a buge window to succeed. 2 years of elite just doesn't outweigh it unless the window just happened to hit at that exact time. Meaning, bigger window equals better chance.

Well yeah I'm not talking about how had a greater career, I'm talking about if both were healthy and at their absolute best, I think Penny was the better player. Sucks for him that he got hurt and he'll never be as high on all-time lists, but that's why all-time lists are not measuring how good a player was, but how great they were.

basch152
01-31-2019, 01:50 PM
he's not underrated.

if any point guard deserves the underrated nod it's gary Payton.

he was a good scorer with solid efficiency, good passer, and, ya know, the best defensive guard ever.

I mean when they finally put him on MJ in the finals MJ had his worst finals games ever, I think it was even his worst playoff games, period.

MJ went from averaging 31 ppg that series with Payton not on him and going 3-0 with two blowouts, to averaging 23 ppg and going 1-2 over the last three games while being guarded by payton.

he was literally game changing on defense, and for guards that is almost non existant throughout the history of the NBA.

Chronz
01-31-2019, 01:51 PM
He hates Stockton and wants to trash him any chance he gets. He'll never admit that Stockton is the far superior player to Nash.

He's definitely superior, I'm just asking a stylistic question

Chronz
01-31-2019, 01:53 PM
yes. I would start any team I could assemble with him as my PG. He was as close to perfect as a PG can get.

Stockton could literally break his leg and be back within months

basch152
01-31-2019, 02:00 PM
Stockton could literally break his leg and be back within months

well I mean, yeah. depending on the type of break recovery time is anywhere from like 6 weeks up to 6 months.

if it's treated fast enough, which it almost always is, broken bones aren't anywhere near as bad of an injury as any kind of tear, which often go untreated until it becomes a catastrophic injury.

ewing
01-31-2019, 02:10 PM
he's not underrated.

if any point guard deserves the underrated nod it's gary Payton.

he was a good scorer with solid efficiency, good passer, and, ya know, the best defensive guard ever.

I mean when they finally put him on MJ in the finals MJ had his worst finals games ever, I think it was even his worst playoff games, period.

MJ went from averaging 31 ppg that series with Payton not on him and going 3-0 with two blowouts, to averaging 23 ppg and going 1-2 over the last three games while being guarded by payton.

he was literally game changing on defense, and for guards that is almost non existant throughout the history of the NBA.

I think the Bulls put it in cruise control and Tony Parker in the most underrated PG. Honorable mention to KJ and my boy Mark Jackson

JAZZNC
01-31-2019, 02:29 PM
I think the Bulls put it in cruise control and Tony Parker in the most underrated PG. Honorable mention to KJ and my boy Mark Jackson

Its unfortunate that people seem to have already forgotten about how great Tony Parker was. When he was in his prime and putting people on spin cycle it was a thing of beauty. Guy lived in the lane and was almost impossible to stay in front of. When he added the floater and a passable jumper he was incredible.

Mark Jackson was that dude at the YMCA that didnt look like anything but was steady killing people. He just really rubbed me the wrong way when he played for the Jazz and thought he should be starting.

Hawkeye15
01-31-2019, 02:39 PM
Well yeah I'm not talking about how had a greater career, I'm talking about if both were healthy and at their absolute best, I think Penny was the better player. Sucks for him that he got hurt and he'll never be as high on all-time lists, but that's why all-time lists are not measuring how good a player was, but how great they were.

well, Penny is not alone. Injuries have robbed a few guys (as a Portland fan, I don't need to expand on for you this at all).

I disagree though, Penny wasn't the overall player Stockton was, to me. He was a matchup nightmare, but while his 95-96' season gave us a glimpse of what could have been, it's just as easy to assume he tops out at that point too. We are imagining trajectory I think. Stockton gave you all NBA, elite 2 way PG play for like 15 seasons. I prefer a larger window when the falloff is barely there.

Hawkeye15
01-31-2019, 02:40 PM
he's not underrated.

if any point guard deserves the underrated nod it's gary Payton.

he was a good scorer with solid efficiency, good passer, and, ya know, the best defensive guard ever.

I mean when they finally put him on MJ in the finals MJ had his worst finals games ever, I think it was even his worst playoff games, period.

MJ went from averaging 31 ppg that series with Payton not on him and going 3-0 with two blowouts, to averaging 23 ppg and going 1-2 over the last three games while being guarded by payton.

he was literally game changing on defense, and for guards that is almost non existant throughout the history of the NBA.

Payton claims Stockton was the toughest player he ever guarded.

valade16
01-31-2019, 02:54 PM
well, Penny is not alone. Injuries have robbed a few guys (as a Portland fan, I don't need to expand on for you this at all).

I disagree though, Penny wasn't the overall player Stockton was, to me. He was a matchup nightmare, but while his 95-96' season gave us a glimpse of what could have been, it's just as easy to assume he tops out at that point too. We are imagining trajectory I think. Stockton gave you all NBA, elite 2 way PG play for like 15 seasons. I prefer a larger window when the falloff is barely there.

I'm saying I think the 95-96 season was better than any singular season from Stockton. I agree with you that I'd take Stockton over several PGs I consider flat better players because of my ability to have such a good player for so long over others who definitely couldn't last as long.

ewing
01-31-2019, 03:04 PM
well, Penny is not alone. Injuries have robbed a few guys (as a Portland fan, I don't need to expand on for you this at all).

I disagree though, Penny wasn't the overall player Stockton was, to me. He was a matchup nightmare, but while his 95-96' season gave us a glimpse of what could have been, it's just as easy to assume he tops out at that point too. We are imagining trajectory I think. Stockton gave you all NBA, elite 2 way PG play for like 15 seasons. I prefer a larger window when the falloff is barely there.

Iím not going to pretend I donít have a Mark Jackson bias. I grew up watching him. On the hand his court vision and passing was some of the best ever So I think he belongs on an underrated list


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Hawkeye15
01-31-2019, 03:06 PM
I'm saying I think the 95-96 season was better than any singular season from Stockton. I agree with you that I'd take Stockton over several PGs I consider flat better players because of my ability to have such a good player for so long over others who definitely couldn't last as long.

hmm, maybe. Lemme take a look. Defensively, was Penny very good?

Hawkeye15
01-31-2019, 03:08 PM
Iím not going to pretend I donít have a Mark Jackson bias. I grew up watching him. On the hand his court vision and passing was some of the best ever So I think he belongs on an underrated list


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

again, I have to ask-where is Jackson rated usually?

He was not very good defensively, and offered pretty bad scoring ability, but I can agree his distribution skills were elite as it gets. He had that Rubio timing, where most PG's would make the correct pass, he made the correct pass at the exact right time to boot..

ewing
01-31-2019, 03:29 PM
again, I have to ask-where is Jackson rated usually?

He was not very good defensively, and offered pretty bad scoring ability, but I can agree his distribution skills were elite as it gets. He had that Rubio timing, where most PG's would make the correct pass, he made the correct pass at the exact right time to boot..

I think he is day he was recognized as being an all time distributor. I think people have forgotten how good he was b/c like you said while he was great in one aspect of the game he was no where near the all around player that a Stockton was.

Hawkeye15
01-31-2019, 03:40 PM
I think he is day he was recognized as being an all time distributor. I think people have forgotten how good he was b/c like you said while he was great in one aspect of the game he was no where near the all around player that a Stockton was.

My Dad used to point out Jackson to me when it came to trying to understand how to time passes. Like, a guy might be open, but if you would have either led him just a hair sooner, or wait for him to finish his move, he might have a much easier look or may have made the defense do something more committed. Easy in concept, but I don't think that skill can actually be taught..

Now, it helps when your butt is 4 feet wide, so you can just park it on the defender and watch over your shoulder haha

valade16
01-31-2019, 04:21 PM
hmm, maybe. Lemme take a look. Defensively, was Penny very good?

Even if he was, he was no John Stockton on that end of the floor.

Hawkeye15
01-31-2019, 04:24 PM
Even if he was, he was no John Stockton on that end of the floor.

I know other guys contribute to offensive rating, but that single year of Penny at his best churned out exactly what Stockton pushed out yearly.

valade16
01-31-2019, 04:37 PM
I know other guys contribute to offensive rating, but that single year of Penny at his best churned out exactly what Stockton pushed out yearly.

Yes, but Penny had a .605 TS% (which is near Stockton levels efficient) while scoring more, had a better OBPM (6.4) than Stockton has ever had (6.2) [Note: I'm not using BPM in this instance because it has Stockton's DBPM listed in the negatives, which we all know is absurd].

I think you could make a case either way, certainly Penny was less of a conventional point guard and more of a PG in the mold of a modern rules PG or a Ball/Simmons player in build (though stylistically he's more of a wing player ala T-Mac, etc.).

I think there's an interesting question over how you'd rank the best non bigs who got injured before/during their primes:

Penny
Hill
Roy
Rose

ewing
01-31-2019, 04:42 PM
Yes, but Penny had a .605 TS% (which is near Stockton levels efficient) while scoring more, had a better OBPM (6.4) than Stockton has ever had (6.2) [Note: I'm not using BPM in this instance because it has Stockton's DBPM listed in the negatives, which we all know is absurd].

I think you could make a case either way, certainly Penny was less of a conventional point guard and more of a PG in the mold of a modern rules PG or a Ball/Simmons player in build (though stylistically he's more of a wing player ala T-Mac, etc.).

I think there's an interesting question over how you'd rank the best non bigs who got injured before/during their primes:

Penny
Hill
Roy
Rose

Hill
Roy
Penny
Rose

Scoots
01-31-2019, 04:42 PM
Stockton is the best traditional PG of all time, and the second best ever to play the position. Everything he tried to do he was excellent at it.

papipapsmanny
02-10-2019, 08:12 PM
Stockton was crazy with the passes.

Honestly those Jazz teams that lost in the finals get underrated, you should look up their starting 5 those years and see how efficient they were and how deadly they were from 3.

Actually its very laughable when people say that Jordan had a cakewalk in his last two finals. Those Jazz teams (and even before then) were fun to watch

IKnowHoops
02-11-2019, 04:58 PM
He easily could tho, especially in nash's era. disagree with not even close, he's by far the closest. Who else comes close to having a similar offensive profile?

Manu Gunobli?

IKnowHoops
02-11-2019, 05:04 PM
you didn't watch enough of Stockton then....

also, Nash wasn't shooting with guys draped on him. And he wasn't a prolific scorer at all. Overall, Stockton is easily the better player, and matches Nash's offensive ability as well. Stockton was leading better offenses his first year as a starter than Nash might ever have done. Just a model of consistency, almost robotic.

Nash absolutely was hitting Dirk style fade-aways. As a Spurs fan, Iíve seen Nash do enough work. He was a near unstoppable scorer when he wanted to be.

IKnowHoops
02-11-2019, 05:05 PM
he's not underrated.

if any point guard deserves the underrated nod it's gary Payton.

he was a good scorer with solid efficiency, good passer, and, ya know, the best defensive guard ever.

I mean when they finally put him on MJ in the finals MJ had his worst finals games ever, I think it was even his worst playoff games, period.

MJ went from averaging 31 ppg that series with Payton not on him and going 3-0 with two blowouts, to averaging 23 ppg and going 1-2 over the last three games while being guarded by payton.

he was literally game changing on defense, and for guards that is almost non existant throughout the history of the NBA.

Iíd take Payton over Stockton every day of the week.

IKnowHoops
02-11-2019, 05:07 PM
He's definitely superior, I'm just asking a stylistic question

Gary Payton got farther with a lesser team. Well kinda

Tg11
02-11-2019, 07:32 PM
Stockton will always be underrated because he never won the big one...he and Malone never won the big one

rhymeratic
02-11-2019, 07:48 PM
John Stockton to me is the blueprint for the ultimate PG in that he does EXACTLY everything that you want from the position in a perfect world. Even more so than Chris Paul. To me Paul is a lesser version of Stockton. I kinda group my PGs like this:

Stockton - IT 1.0 - Paul (pg savants that just do everything balanced)
Magic - Kidd - Livingston - Simmons - Ball (oversized pgs that have great vision, pass the ball, rebound, not natural shooters)
Price - Nash - Curry (lights out shooting PGs)
Iverson - Westbrook - Kyrie (score first pgs although Kyrie kinda blends between the Price/Iverson group)
Ron Harper - Frank Ntlikina (Defensive, pass first, more SG than PG archtype)
Damon Stoudmire - DJ Augustin - Nate Robinson - Earl Boykins - IT 2.0 (the undersized dynamos)

Hope that made sense, not trying to say one is better than another etc, just grouping them in style

Chronz
02-11-2019, 08:21 PM
Gary Payton got farther with a lesser team. Well kinda

Yeah but he also got cooked in r1 with a far superior team 2 years in a row

Raps18-19 Champ
02-11-2019, 10:55 PM
George Gervin.

He was robbed on an MVP and had a few top 3 finishes as well. He's practically overlooked when it comes to best wings.

Tg11
02-12-2019, 04:37 AM
If Stockton had won a title he wouldn't be as underrated but mostly definitely when it comes to history he is underrated

Hawkeye15
02-12-2019, 10:54 AM
Yeah but he also got cooked in r1 with a far superior team 2 years in a row

he also never ran an offense to the efficiency Stockton did, not even close actually. Stockton also outplayed Payton in the playoffs over his career, meaning he put up better results, numbers, and impact.

Payton is very overrated by guys 35-45 years old.

kdspurman
02-12-2019, 01:25 PM
Nash absolutely was hitting Dirk style fade-aways. As a Spurs fan, Iíve seen Nash do enough work. He was a near unstoppable scorer when he wanted to be.

dribble into the paint, keeps dribble alive along baseline, dribbles back towards the paint around several screens, 1 legged fade-away in the paint. Was like clockwork lol

Chronz
02-12-2019, 06:05 PM
he also never ran an offense to the efficiency Stockton did, not even close actually. Stockton also outplayed Payton in the playoffs over his career, meaning he put up better results, numbers, and impact.

Payton is very overrated by guys 35-45 years old.
Yeah I nabbed him in a redraft thinking I could convince the youth he could check mj better than anyone

gogo
02-12-2019, 07:25 PM
Underrated due to Jordan Era.

Scoots
02-13-2019, 02:23 AM
Payton's offensive game was just okay. At his peak he was the best defensive PG I've seen.

bagwell368
02-28-2019, 08:02 AM
Stockton was like a cross between CP3 defensively (only 3 inches taller) and Nash Offensively. Prolly the best true PG ever, I think we should put Magic in his own position or just put him where he prolly would play most today, somewhere in the frontcourt.

Point forward, like Bird w/o the outside shot or physical inside heavy lifting. Wouldn't have flown in his time, but the past 15 years? Yes.

Stockton isn't as underrated as he is undermentioned. Everyone say Magic #1 like Jordan #1. Leaves Kobe and Stockton outside looking in.

Kobe more mentioned because his career is closer, the scoring, and LAL, but his mentions have dropped a lot in past 2-3 years - go 20 years forward.

bagwell368
02-28-2019, 08:59 AM
Payton's offensive game was just okay. At his peak he was the best defensive PG I've seen.

No doubt.

bagwell368
02-28-2019, 09:03 AM
George Gervin.

He was robbed on an MVP and had a few top 3 finishes as well. He's practically overlooked when it comes to best wings.

No D