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ChiTownPacerFan
01-17-2019, 09:22 PM
Can someone explain the logic behind modern NBA help defense. I can't wrap my head around why teams choose to set up their defenses to leave shooters. Just seems like if I was running an NBA defense, I'd tell guards to stay attached to sharpshooters, at all times. Take a look at this pic.

https://imgur.com/a/s1C5128

How could it possibly be smart strategy for Corey Joseph to cheat off of JJ Reddick? What purpose is he serving? Dude is like 6'2" 190, what is he going to do, provide rim protection against either Jimmy Butler or Joel Embiid!? Why not just sit on Reddick's hip? Even if he does miraculously help inside on bigger stronger players (and doesn't foul), he's still giving up a wide open corner three to one of the best shooters in the NBA. Why can't he just stay home on his man?

This isn't just this one play I'm confused about either. This is how NBA defenses are designed to operate. Someone explain this to me?

Scoots
01-17-2019, 11:25 PM
The way I see it is you always want your defense to be setup to stop the first option of any play, NBA players are good at scoring, so you want to get the ball out of the hands of the player the opponent wants to have the ball, and you try to cover that with player rotation.

The problem comes when that help comes from a player who is leaving an easy passing lane to a shooter.

So once those fundamentals are set it becomes a problem of breaking habits, and most NBA players are; bad at breaking habits, bad at staying with their man, bad at not fouling. Then you build the offense to take advantage of those defensive ideas and those long drilled in habits and you end up with a pick and roll offense with shooters around the wings and a finisher in the dunking position.

kobe4thewinbang
01-18-2019, 01:29 AM
I'm not very familiar with Joseph, so not sure how defensively sound he is, or what the Pacers defensive scheme is as a team since the time Vogel left, but I do know that some teams would rather follow the ball and secure the paint and let shooters "do what they do best" and live with the results. Remember when LeBron hit that shot in Game 7 against the Spurs? They'd been letting him shoot that series, and he finally burned them. Guys like Reddick (even guys like Klay and Steph) are either hot or not, and go cold quite regularly. If Co-Jo can nab an interception instead of smothering Reddick, that's good for the Pacers. Again, not sure what they're running.

On 2K, I'll often let the other team take a shot and back off shooters, set up down low for the rebound. Especially in today's NBA, players are generally afraid to contest in fear of getting called for a bogus foul or to actually foul by contesting too passionately. A few players can do it well and avoid contact (e.g. Kawhi Leonard) but he's exceptional.

From that photo, honestly Co-Jo could intercept that pass if they were to swing it to Reddick. One rule is you never do cross-court passes. Very rarely, it'll get through, but more often it gets deflected or downright intercepted.

I'm not term-savvy on b-ball terms, but that strategy might be called something. I'm not even sure what "Shrink the floor", "no threes", "straight up" mean on 2K other than the words themselves, but the Pacers defense looks pretty solid there, IMO.

If you remember Rip Hamilton, or ever watch Curry or Klay off-ball, their defenders have their work cut out for them because their man is always moving, and a screen is coming from every direction it seems. So you get burned either way, just depends on which team and how they want to get burned and are willing to give.

tp13baby
01-18-2019, 11:42 AM
The first thing you have to acccount for is the ball. Defenses have to protect the paint for multiple reasons. Screen and rolls are ran in the NBA because it takes 3 guys to defend it properly if the offense runs it right. Itís why every team runs screen and rolls.

So to answer the first part, why not stick to his hip. Well again every player shoots better in the paint than outside it. No help side defense often times leads to layups which are high percentage shots. Every player shoots better in the paint than 3s. So you have got to play the percentages and force outside shots. It is the help side guards job to meet anyone as far from the rim once they see they need help. This ďspearĒ ideally forces the offense to kick the ball. You are playing the percentages. If this spear doesnít happen, the offense still has the upper hand even without a layup. Offense calls this playing inside out. Attacking the paint allows high percentage shots in the paint, or allows your shooters to relocate to the open spot, kick out and hit. Shooters are always taught to move without the ball, making this hard on their defender. Defenders lose their guy for a matter of milliseconds and good shooters make them pay with their quick release. The more penetration, defenders tend to move to the paint allowing more space for shooters.

Ideally against better shooters you tend to play slightly closer to them so itís less room to close out. But percentage wise you have to protect the paint. Higher percentages in the paint, teams playing inside out shoot better from deep. Golden state does this well. They attack, their guards are moving at all times and they kick it out.

Denver is a top 10 3 point percentage team. Someone who watches every game of theirs can tell you we have no good 3 point shooters really besides Harris. Everything is created by getting the ball into the paint off screen and rolls, back doors, cuts and all that. Our 3 point percentage is good because we get the ball inside and then kick out. Keeping teams out of the paint, off spears, help side makes teams play outside only. Iím sure you have heard your announcers at one point say everything is on the perimeter. Denver Nuggets announcers point that out and always when we are not getting to the paint and our offense suffers.

Bottom line, getting in the Paint does 2 things. It breaks the defense down allowing shooters more room to catch and shoot outside. Or you get very high percentage shots in the paint. So defenses protect the paint to play the percentages. Itís not a statistical anomaly that 99.99 percent of players shoot better in the paint than they do from outside.

Scoots
01-18-2019, 02:03 PM
The first thing you have to acccount for is the ball. Defenses have to protect the paint for multiple reasons. Screen and rolls are ran in the NBA because it takes 3 guys to defend it properly if the offense runs it right. Itís why every team runs screen and rolls.

So to answer the first part, why not stick to his hip. Well again every player shoots better in the paint than outside it. No help side defense often times leads to layups which are high percentage shots. Every player shoots better in the paint than 3s. So you have got to play the percentages and force outside shots. It is the help side guards job to meet anyone as far from the rim once they see they need help. This ďspearĒ ideally forces the offense to kick the ball. You are playing the percentages. If this spear doesnít happen, the offense still has the upper hand even without a layup. Offense calls this playing inside out. Attacking the paint allows high percentage shots in the paint, or allows your shooters to relocate to the open spot, kick out and hit. Shooters are always taught to move without the ball, making this hard on their defender. Defenders lose their guy for a matter of milliseconds and good shooters make them pay with their quick release. The more penetration, defenders tend to move to the paint allowing more space for shooters.

Ideally against better shooters you tend to play slightly closer to them so itís less room to close out. But percentage wise you have to protect the paint. Higher percentages in the paint, teams playing inside out shoot better from deep. Golden state does this well. They attack, their guards are moving at all times and they kick it out.

Denver is a top 10 3 point percentage team. Someone who watches every game of theirs can tell you we have no good 3 point shooters really besides Harris. Everything is created by getting the ball into the paint off screen and rolls, back doors, cuts and all that. Our 3 point percentage is good because we get the ball inside and then kick out. Keeping teams out of the paint, off spears, help side makes teams play outside only. Iím sure you have heard your announcers at one point say everything is on the perimeter. Denver Nuggets announcers point that out and always when we are not getting to the paint and our offense suffers.

Bottom line, getting in the Paint does 2 things. It breaks the defense down allowing shooters more room to catch and shoot outside. Or you get very high percentage shots in the paint. So defenses protect the paint to play the percentages. Itís not a statistical anomaly that 99.99 percent of players shoot better in the paint than they do from outside.

The Nuggets and Warriors are both good examples of the way offenses play with defenses and where the defense is ALWAYS behind. The Nuggets can go inside to Joker 100 times a game, and if he's single teamed he's going to score 80 points a game and still get 10 assists and foul out half the opposing team. With the Warriors they run the ball through the high post with KD and Draymond and the other 3 guys are constant motion and screens where you just CAN'T stay on them tight no matter how much you want to. You start defending both in similar ways, you send an extra guy closer to the ball to help where needed first, then adjust.

ewing
01-18-2019, 02:53 PM
Can someone explain the logic behind modern NBA help defense. I can't wrap my head around why teams choose to set up their defenses to leave shooters. Just seems like if I was running an NBA defense, I'd tell guards to stay attached to sharpshooters, at all times. Take a look at this pic.

https://imgur.com/a/s1C5128

How could it possibly be smart strategy for Corey Joseph to cheat off of JJ Reddick? What purpose is he serving? Dude is like 6'2" 190, what is he going to do, provide rim protection against either Jimmy Butler or Joel Embiid!? Why not just sit on Reddick's hip? Even if he does miraculously help inside on bigger stronger players (and doesn't foul), he's still giving up a wide open corner three to one of the best shooters in the NBA. Why can't he just stay home on his man?

This isn't just this one play I'm confused about either. This is how NBA defenses are designed to operate. Someone explain this to me?

Sorry I'm not seeing what you are describing. JJ is not in the corner. He is on the other side of the floor on elbow extended a couple feet behind the 3 point line. I have no issue with where his defender is. The fact that he can only see the ball and not the ball and his man is problem. I guess there was more action on this play and that after this picture JJ continue to the corner and maybe the roll man hits him for a open 3. If that is the case its not bc of where Joseph is now it b/c he did not react to JJ's cut b/c he was staring at the ball

Hawkeye15
01-18-2019, 03:00 PM
You have to be hyper-aware of where a shooter like JJ is, but you also have a duty to protect the paint first, unless you are assigned to shadow a specific shooter (this usually is only the case if you have a rim protector you can trust).

With no touching allowed, and the ability for every team to stretch the floor now, defense is hard. Very hard. The way you defend should change a bit game to game, depending on the opponent. But the fundamentals of defense will never change-make guys catch it out of their comfort zone, and make every shot as difficult as possible. Don't allow free penetration, and rebound the damn ball.

IndyRealist
01-18-2019, 03:17 PM
I went back to watch the exact play. This is secondary action after the initial play broke down. JJ Redick backs up 12ft and Joseph stays at the 3pt line to watch the action. Butler takes the PnR and goes right for an eventual 20ft contested fadeaway, while Redick cuts along the left sideline for the 3. His hand does come up to call for the ball, but Joseph is between him and the ball the entire time. Of note is that Embiid set the pick and then he rolled, he is directly in the way of a pass to Redick as well, and would more likely be the pass recipient. Sabonis doubled Butler and Joseph helped cover Embiid.

ewing
01-18-2019, 08:13 PM
I went back to watch the exact play. This is secondary action after the initial play broke down. JJ Redick backs up 12ft and Joseph stays at the 3pt line to watch the action. Butler takes the PnR and goes right for an eventual 20ft contested fadeaway, while Redick cuts along the left sideline for the 3. His hand does come up to call for the ball, but Joseph is between him and the ball the entire time. Of note is that Embiid set the pick and then he rolled, he is directly in the way of a pass to Redick as well, and would more likely be the pass recipient. Sabonis doubled Butler and Joseph helped cover Embiid.

If you can post the play do Iíd be interested. I think in this case the since there is no passing lane to get the ball to Reddick Corey is absolutely in the right spot. I think him sitting in that lane does discourage the drive and should allow him to recover to JJ should the ball move to a place where a pass could be made. The only reasons I could see for him staying all the way up on JJ is he would much less likely to get beat on a cut watching the ball or to stop JJ from losing him running corner on a scramble off a lose ball or offensive rebound


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