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View Full Version : Will Dirk pass Wilt in total points?



hidalgo
01-11-2019, 10:19 PM
i'm gonna say he won't. he looks like he has nothing left, and barely musters up 3 ppg. i don't see it happening

here's their point totals as of today

Wilt 31,419
Dirk 31,230

so if he plays 35 of the remaining 40 games, he needs to avg 5.5 ppg to pass him. the more games he misses, the more he has to avg. not looking good...

zookman65
01-11-2019, 11:57 PM
No way. I am a big Mav/Dirk fan but the poor guy cant shoot anymore. Carlisle is being charitable playing him.

hidalgo
01-12-2019, 12:29 AM
i'm a big Dirk fan too. i thought this would have been easy for him, cause he was so close, but since he came back this season he's just got absolutely nothing left. he's spent

YAALREADYKNO
01-12-2019, 05:09 AM
Unless something changes I donít see it happening. Still hoping he does though 🙏🏽 GO MAVS!

mightybosstone
01-12-2019, 08:25 AM
I gave Dirk the benefit of the doubt before I looked at his numbers this season and his recent statlines. How is he average 29.4% shooting from the floor this season? He's 1-17 in his last three games!

I don't think he's going to do it based on recent play and season numbers, but there was a promising stretch there it looks like at the end of the year to the first game of 2019 where he scored 7, 11, 6 and 6 over a four-game stretch (it's crazy to me that I'm calling that "promising" for Dirk freaking Nowitzki) and shot competently from the floor. If he could just do that and average like 7-8 points a game, he could easily pass it.

It would only take him 27 games to get there if he could average 7 a night, but he's in such a slump now that he's going to have to really climb out of it to have any kind of shot. That being said, he's Dirk. I've got to think in the last 40 games of his career, he'll find a few moments to show the flashes of brilliance he was famous for. And the Mavs are clinging to that last thread of playoff chances; once they're clearly out of the postseason picture, this could become a Dirk farewell tour and they could play him way more to help him pass Wilt.

zookman65
01-12-2019, 09:15 AM
I gave Dirk the benefit of the doubt before I looked at his numbers this season and his recent statlines. How is he average 29.4% shooting from the floor this season? He's 1-17 in his last three games!

I don't think he's going to do it based on recent play and season numbers, but there was a promising stretch there it looks like at the end of the year to the first game of 2019 where he scored 7, 11, 6 and 6 over a four-game stretch (it's crazy to me that I'm calling that "promising" for Dirk freaking Nowitzki) and shot competently from the floor. If he could just do that and average like 7-8 points a game, he could easily pass it.

It would only take him 27 games to get there if he could average 7 a night, but he's in such a slump now that he's going to have to really climb out of it to have any kind of shot. That being said, he's Dirk. I've got to think in the last 40 games of his career, he'll find a few moments to show the flashes of brilliance he was famous for. And the Mavs are clinging to that last thread of playoff chances; once they're clearly out of the postseason picture, this could become a Dirk farewell tour and they could play him way more to help him pass Wilt.

The problem is though he is taking value add bench minutes from Maxi Kleber and Powell either of which have been far superior. If Dirk cant hit his 3's at least at a 30%+ rate he is of NO use, sad as it is to say. I love that dude but....

mightybosstone
01-12-2019, 09:31 AM
The problem is though he is taking value add bench minutes from Maxi Kleber and Powell either of which have been far superior. If Dirk cant hit his 3's at least at a 30%+ rate he is of NO use, sad as it is to say. I love that dude but....

Yeah, and if Dallas was capable of making the postseason, I would agree those guys deserve the minutes. But they're not, and at some point you have to think winning games is no longer a priority. He's the greatest player in franchise history. If he wants to pass Wilt, and the team wants him to pass Wilt, they'll make it happen. If he doesn't care, then it won't.

zookman65
01-12-2019, 09:35 AM
Yeah, and if Dallas was capable of making the postseason, I would agree those guys deserve the minutes. But they're not, and at some point you have to think winning games is no longer a priority. He's the greatest player in franchise history. If he wants to pass Wilt, and the team wants him to pass Wilt, they'll make it happen. If he doesn't care, then it won't.

Yeah you are correct although it is becoming clear that Luka hates losing. The kid is intense and pissed when they fall behind and like a little kid when they win.

mightybosstone
01-12-2019, 09:47 AM
Yeah you are correct although it is becoming clear that Luka hates losing. The kid is intense and pissed when they fall behind and like a little kid when they win.

I wonder how much time he's spent with Dirk this season just learning from the guy. As such a hyped rookie with crazy potential and big goals, you've got to think having the greatest European player and greatest Mav of all-time on his team his rookie season is like a dream come true.

SenileStern
01-12-2019, 11:37 AM
I nearly created this thread couple of days ago lol.

Saw the game against the Lakers and he looked so old and slow. It was also embarrassing against the Celtics, where they didn't defend him, so that he would get the 2 points to pass Kobe in points scored at TD Garden all-time. He ended that game with 0-10 and 0 points. Rewatch that last minute if you can....

I'm wondering can they let him start the next season if he's only few points short?

Mr.B
01-12-2019, 06:04 PM
Yeah, and if Dallas was capable of making the postseason, I would agree those guys deserve the minutes. But they're not, and at some point you have to think winning games is no longer a priority. He's the greatest player in franchise history. If he wants to pass Wilt, and the team wants him to pass Wilt, they'll make it happen. If he doesn't care, then it won't.

I agree. If the Mavs were in a legit playoff push I agree that taking minutes away from Kleber would be a mistake but theyíre not. Dirk has earned the right to get the minutes to pass Wilt if thatís what he wants. The ironic thing is that knowing Dirk that is exactly what he doesnít want. He wants whatever it takes to win.

As the season goes I actually expect Dirk to play better. He hasnít been back that long and as he gets his legs his scoring will improve. During the second half of the season think heíll end up somewhere between 10-15 ppg. I also fully expect heíll retire at the end of the season. Then he can move on to being the GM of the team.

Sanjay
01-13-2019, 02:03 AM
Yeah, and if Dallas was capable of making the postseason, I would agree those guys deserve the minutes. But they're not, and at some point you have to think winning games is no longer a priority. He's the greatest player in franchise history. If he wants to pass Wilt, and the team wants him to pass Wilt, they'll make it happen. If he doesn't care, then it won't.


I agree. If the Mavs were in a legit playoff push I agree that taking minutes away from Kleber would be a mistake but theyíre not. Dirk has earned the right to get the minutes to pass Wilt if thatís what he wants. The ironic thing is that knowing Dirk that is exactly what he doesnít want. He wants whatever it takes to win.

As the season goes I actually expect Dirk to play better. He hasnít been back that long and as he gets his legs his scoring will improve. During the second half of the season think heíll end up somewhere between 10-15 ppg. I also fully expect heíll retire at the end of the season. Then he can move on to being the GM of the team.

Mavericks are only four games back of the Clippers who are sixth. I think the Clips will trail off in the second half of the season so Dallas should still be aiming for the playoffs.

Sanjay
01-13-2019, 02:04 AM
I nearly created this thread couple of days ago lol.

Saw the game against the Lakers and he looked so old and slow. It was also embarrassing against the Celtics, where they didn't defend him, so that he would get the 2 points to pass Kobe in points scored at TD Garden all-time. He ended that game with 0-10 and 0 points. Rewatch that last minute if you can....

I'm wondering can they let him start the next season if he's only few points short?

Dirk won't come back just to pass Wilt.

mightybosstone
01-13-2019, 10:56 AM
Mavericks are only four games back of the Clippers who are sixth. I think the Clips will trail off in the second half of the season so Dallas should still be aiming for the playoffs.

They should be, but they're one of 14 teams in a crowded West fighting for the playoffs, and they're not exactly one of the teams that would be favored to get in. If they're sitting at 4-5 games out by the All-Star break, what's the point of fighting for the 8th seed for a young rebuilding team when they could lose more down the stretch and get the better pick? In a crowded middle this year, 2-3 games could be the difference between getting the 8th pick and the 14th pick.

Mr.B
01-13-2019, 04:19 PM
Mavericks are only four games back of the Clippers who are sixth. I think the Clips will trail off in the second half of the season so Dallas should still be aiming for the playoffs.

Theyíre definitely aiming for a playoff spot I just donít think they will make it. Their road record is horrible. Ultimately I think theyíll end up around 10th in the West.

Mr.B
01-13-2019, 04:25 PM
They should be, but they're one of 14 teams in a crowded West fighting for the playoffs, and they're not exactly one of the teams that would be favored to get in. If they're sitting at 4-5 games out by the All-Star break, what's the point of fighting for the 8th seed for a young rebuilding team when they could lose more down the stretch and get the better pick? In a crowded middle this year, 2-3 games could be the difference between getting the 8th pick and the 14th pick.

They traded their pick. The last thing you want to do is start building a culture of losing. They need to try to win as many games as possible even if it means making the 8th seed and getting smoked in the 1st round. These young guys need a taste of winning.

Sanjay
01-13-2019, 05:13 PM
They should be, but they're one of 14 teams in a crowded West fighting for the playoffs, and they're not exactly one of the teams that would be favored to get in. If they're sitting at 4-5 games out by the All-Star break, what's the point of fighting for the 8th seed for a young rebuilding team when they could lose more down the stretch and get the better pick? In a crowded middle this year, 2-3 games could be the difference between getting the 8th pick and the 14th pick.

True although you could also say why try to make the playoffs if you are going to lose in the first round anyway (I think before the season the top four seeds were locked up: Warriors, Rockets, Spurs and Thunder; so the best the Mavericks could have hoped for was fifth). Dallas could have just tanked for Williamson.

TrueFan420
01-13-2019, 05:22 PM
They traded their pick. The last thing you want to do is start building a culture of losing. They need to try to win as many games as possible even if it means making the 8th seed and getting smoked in the 1st round. These young guys need a taste of winning.
No doubt but letís say your mathematically out of the playoffs with 10 games to go... Dirk comes out and says itís his last season... you saying you donít want to see him get 30 minutes a night to close out the season and chase Wilts record?

I personally know where I stand on watching great players retire... im TD/Manu style over Kobe style all day every day but that wonít be tested until Curry retires... where do you stand? Can that change based on the circumstances of the season?

Quinnsanity
01-13-2019, 06:22 PM
His last home game is against Phoenix. I wouldn't be surprised if we got a Kobe-like situation where he just takes every shot and winds up with like 40 in that game alone.

TrueFan420
01-13-2019, 06:48 PM
His last home game is against Phoenix. I wouldn't be surprised if we got a Kobe-like situation where he just takes every shot and winds up with like 40 in that game alone.
Eh idk everything Dirk has said and done in the past leads me to believe this wonít happen.

Chronz
01-13-2019, 07:14 PM
Yeah, and if Dallas was capable of making the postseason, I would agree those guys deserve the minutes. But they're not, and at some point you have to think winning games is no longer a priority. He's the greatest player in franchise history. If he wants to pass Wilt, and the team wants him to pass Wilt, they'll make it happen. If he doesn't care, then it won't.
That's the thing, when they were at least in the playoff race (they still are), it was because of those minutes he took away. The mavs bench was legit carrying them early relatively speaking

hidalgo
01-13-2019, 10:52 PM
at this point i'd be willing to bet big money he won't do it. freakin sucks

LeonFSU
01-14-2019, 03:48 PM
I'm gonna give him the benefit of the doubt and say yes. There are still a lot of games and hopefully he gets healthier.

AntiG
01-14-2019, 05:53 PM
I nearly created this thread couple of days ago lol.

Saw the game against the Lakers and he looked so old and slow. It was also embarrassing against the Celtics, where they didn't defend him, so that he would get the 2 points to pass Kobe in points scored at TD Garden all-time. He ended that game with 0-10 and 0 points. Rewatch that last minute if you can....

I'm wondering can they let him start the next season if he's only few points short?

shocking that he fell off THIS much. Even in Jordan, Kobe, Pierce, KG, etc final seasons they still could hit a jump shot, and Dirk was a superior all-around shooter than any of them.

Chronz
01-14-2019, 06:09 PM
shocking that he fell off THIS much. Even in Jordan, Kobe, Pierce, KG, etc final seasons they still could hit a jump shot, and Dirk was a superior all-around shooter than any of them.

Pierce was trash too

Chronz
01-14-2019, 06:10 PM
at this point i'd be willing to bet big money he won't do it. freakin sucks

Your retirement fund, on the line. Right now

Mr.B
01-14-2019, 11:38 PM
No doubt but letís say your mathematically out of the playoffs with 10 games to go... Dirk comes out and says itís his last season... you saying you donít want to see him get 30 minutes a night to close out the season and chase Wilts record?

I personally know where I stand on watching great players retire... im TD/Manu style over Kobe style all day every day but that wonít be tested until Curry retires... where do you stand? Can that change based on the circumstances of the season?

If Dirk wants 30 min a night heís earned the right to play as much as he wants and I will be watching every minute heís on the floor. I just know that Dirk wouldnít do that if it was hurting the team. He would sacrifice any record for the benefit of the teamís future. Keep in mind that he will be part of the teamís front office starting the second he retires so itís also in his best interest to help the team develop a winning culture.

hidalgo
01-15-2019, 01:37 AM
shocking that he fell off THIS much. Even in Jordan, Kobe, Pierce, KG, etc final seasons they still could hit a jump shot, and Dirk was a superior all-around shooter than any of them.Pierce and KG were just as bad pretty much. But Michael Jordan was really good his last season, avg 20 ppg. best 40 year old player i ever saw

Mr.B
01-15-2019, 01:06 PM
Also keep in mind that Dirk is coming off an injury that kept him out of the first part of the season. Heís not fully in shape yet.

SenileStern
03-17-2019, 02:21 PM
Dirk has stepped up and is almost guaranteed to pass Wilt already in the next game against the tanking Pelicans.

Only 4 points needed.

-Kobe24-TJ19-
03-17-2019, 02:24 PM
lol it was obvious he's gonna pass Wilt

GREATNESS ONE
03-17-2019, 02:53 PM
Just win games Mavs!!!

TrueFan420
03-17-2019, 03:43 PM
Gonna get to do it on his home court too

hidalgo
03-18-2019, 10:34 PM
yea! he did it! so glad i was wrong

congrats Dirk. cheers!

Hawkeye15
03-19-2019, 11:02 AM
god this makes me feel old

Redrum187
03-19-2019, 12:10 PM
I might be living in denial, but I don't think Dirk is retiring this season. I can't imagine him not in the league... We lost Kobe and Duncan... he's the last of the Mohicans. As time goes on, I am hopefully people will look at the talent (or lack thereof) Dirk played with and won a championship. Not even my boy Duncan was the lone gunman who won it all for the Spurs; He's always had plenty of help unlike Dirk.

Never has someone done more with so little. I'm willing to hear arguments to the contrary.

AntiG
03-19-2019, 12:45 PM
I might be living in denial, but I don't think Dirk is retiring this season. I can't imagine him not in the league... We lost Kobe and Duncan... he's the last of the Mohicans.

Vince is still around. He'll be the true last of the Mohicans.

mightybosstone
03-19-2019, 02:10 PM
Vince is still around. He'll be the true last of the Mohicans.

I haven't paid enough attention to VC in recent years, but I don't get what he's playing for anymore. He's on his third team in as many years playing for a bad Hawks team, hasn't played in a postseason series since 2017 and has made at least $180 million in his career, according to his BR page. So if he doesn't need the money, isn't chasing a ring and isn't especially loyal to the teams he's playing for, why in the hell has he stuck around this long? I just don't get it.

As for Dirk, I'm glad to see him climb that list and have a tremendous amount of respect for him despite loathing him for the better part of two decades.

An interesting story to follow will be the next guys to crack that top 10 list and potentially pass him in a few years. Melo, VC, Wade and Gasol have no chance. The next likely candidate is Durant, who is about 9,000 points away from Dirk. Meanwhile Westbrook and Harden are around 4,000 points behind Durant. How crazy would it be if all three guys from that OKC team end up cracking the all-time top 10 list for points scored?

Redrum187
03-19-2019, 02:21 PM
Vince is still around. He'll be the true last of the Mohicans.

No disrespect to VC, but he doesn't really belong anywhere close to the status of Kobe/Duncan/Dirk. He doesn't qualify for the Mohican tribe.

valade16
03-19-2019, 02:40 PM
I might be living in denial, but I don't think Dirk is retiring this season. I can't imagine him not in the league... We lost Kobe and Duncan... he's the last of the Mohicans. As time goes on, I am hopefully people will look at the talent (or lack thereof) Dirk played with and won a championship. Not even my boy Duncan was the lone gunman who won it all for the Spurs; He's always had plenty of help unlike Dirk.

Never has someone done more with so little. I'm willing to hear arguments to the contrary.

If you're talking about winning a Championship I think Dirk, Duncan, Hakeem and Rick Barry led the worst supporting casts to Championships. If we're talking just going to the Finals LeBron and Patrick Ewing both took some not good supporting casts to the Finals off the top of my head.

Chronz
03-19-2019, 03:21 PM
If you're talking about winning a Championship I think Dirk, Duncan, Hakeem and Rick Barry led the worst supporting casts to Championships. If we're talking just going to the Finals LeBron and Patrick Ewing both took some not good supporting casts to the Finals off the top of my head.

Seen this reiterated throughout my life. Is there a chance you underrate the support?

ewing
03-19-2019, 03:28 PM
I haven't paid enough attention to VC in recent years, but I don't get what he's playing for anymore. He's on his third team in as many years playing for a bad Hawks team, hasn't played in a postseason series since 2017 and has made at least $180 million in his career, according to his BR page. So if he doesn't need the money, isn't chasing a ring and isn't especially loyal to the teams he's playing for, why in the hell has he stuck around this long? I just don't get it.

As for Dirk, I'm glad to see him climb that list and have a tremendous amount of respect for him despite loathing him for the better part of two decades.

An interesting story to follow will be the next guys to crack that top 10 list and potentially pass him in a few years. Melo, VC, Wade and Gasol have no chance. The next likely candidate is Durant, who is about 9,000 points away from Dirk. Meanwhile Westbrook and Harden are around 4,000 points behind Durant. How crazy would it be if all three guys from that OKC team end up cracking the all-time top 10 list for points scored?

This view point always amazes me. VC loves basketball. Thatís why he plays. I couldnít imagine giving it up if I ever got that good. Iíd be like Mike Schmidt


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ewing
03-19-2019, 03:33 PM
Seen this reiterated throughout my life. Is there a chance you underrate the support?

No. Dirk was great


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Redrum187
03-19-2019, 03:52 PM
If you're talking about winning a Championship I think Dirk, Duncan, Hakeem and Rick Barry led the worst supporting casts to Championships. If we're talking just going to the Finals LeBron and Patrick Ewing both took some not good supporting casts to the Finals off the top of my head.

I have to study Barry's teams more to comment. However, Duncan always had great teams. Ignoring Robinson even, he played his career with Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili (another one of my faves). Duncan's help won FMVP on multiple occasions as well. Not taking anything away from Duncan, the best PF of all time, but I don't think he belongs in the conversation of taking a trash squad to the finals and winning it.

As for Hakeem, he belongs in the discussion. I'd make the case Dirk faced astronomically more adversity than Hakeem did though. Hakeem won when the best player in the world retired. Dirk had to go through Portland, then the Lakers (2-peat champs), OKC (Durant/Harden/Westbrook), then the Heat (LeBron/Wade/Bosh).

So while Dirk and Hakeem had subpar support, Dirk did noticeably more.

valade16
03-19-2019, 03:56 PM
Seen this reiterated throughout my life. Is there a chance you underrate the support?

Define underrate? I'm judging their support based on a comparison of other championship teams' support. If we're talking compared to the league in which they played they were obviously good (if not great) supporting casts. If we're talking compared to the average NBA team from all teams in history, they're again good.

But compared to other championship rosters, those were the weakest outside their top star IMO.

Or to put it another way, I'd rather take the supporting cast for many, many other championship teams over theirs (in the years I'm speaking of).

mightybosstone
03-19-2019, 04:01 PM
This view point always amazes me. VC loves basketball. Thatís why he plays. I couldnít imagine giving it up if I ever got that good. Iíd be like Mike Schmidt


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

OK, but loving something and loving something so much that you're willing to let it dominate every aspect of your life and take you away from your family, friends and loved ones for the better part of a year when you're in your 40s is something completely different.

I'll admit that it's impressive that he's still a competent rotational player in the NBA at age 42, but he's not exactly adding anything to his legacy at this point. And I love what I do for a living, but if I could retire tomorrow in my 30s with a ton of money in the bank and spend time with my wife and kid, I'd do it in a heartbeat. And my job is a hell of a lot less challenging and dominates my life substantially less than Vince Carter's does.

valade16
03-19-2019, 04:03 PM
I have to study Barry's teams more to comment. However, Duncan always had great teams. Ignoring Robinson even, he played his career with Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili (another one of my faves). Duncan's help won FMVP on multiple occasions as well. Not taking anything away from Duncan, the best PF of all time, but I don't think he belongs in the conversation of taking a trash squad to the finals and winning it.

As for Hakeem, he belongs in the discussion. I'd make the case Dirk faced astronomically more adversity than Hakeem did though. Hakeem won when the best player in the world retired. Dirk had to go through Portland, then the Lakers (2-peat champs), OKC (Durant/Harden/Westbrook), then the Heat (LeBron/Wade/Bosh).

So while Dirk and Hakeem had subpar support, Dirk did noticeably more.

I'm speaking more specifically about 2003 when Duncan had a 37 yr old D-Rob, a 20 year old Parker and a rookie Manu.

As for Hakeem vs Dirk, Hakeem objectively accomplished more in that he went to 3 Finals and won 2 whereas Dirk went to 2 Finals and won 1. But the question is did he do more with less? IDK, yes Hakeem won in the years MJ retired, but during that era the West was far more loaded than the East and Hakeem had to go through Stockon/Malone Jazz, Payton/Kemp Sonics, Barkley Suns, D-Rob Spurs, Clyde's Blazers. In Hakeem's 93-94 run he faced a team the last 2 Western Conference Finals teams (Blazers, Suns) and a team that would go on to make 2 consecutive Finals (Jazz).

ewing
03-19-2019, 04:06 PM
OK, but loving something and loving something so much that you're willing to let it dominate every aspect of your life and take you away from your family, friends and loved ones for the better part of a year when you're in your 40s is something completely different.

I'll admit that it's impressive that he's still a competent rotational player in the NBA at age 42, but he's not exactly adding anything to his legacy at this point. And I love what I do for a living, but if I could retire tomorrow in my 30s with a ton of money in the bank and spend time with my wife and kid, I'd do it in a heartbeat. And my job is a hell of a lot less challenging and dominates my life substantially less than Vince Carter's does.

He likes playing basketball more then playing with his kids.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Redrum187
03-19-2019, 04:08 PM
OK, but loving something and loving something so much that you're willing to let it dominate every aspect of your life and take you away from your family, friends and loved ones for the better part of a year when you're in your 40s is something completely different.

I'll admit that it's impressive that he's still a competent rotational player in the NBA at age 42, but he's not exactly adding anything to his legacy at this point. And I love what I do for a living, but if I could retire tomorrow in my 30s with a ton of money in the bank and spend time with my wife and kid, I'd do it in a heartbeat. And my job is a hell of a lot less challenging and dominates my life substantially less than Vince Carter's does.

I understand your viewpoint. I think the same... but that's probably because I barely make 6-figures a year which is good, but I'm not "wealthy" by any means. If I could have anything and everything in the world, I may eventually get bored and want to do something that my heart is in.

Imagine being so hideous looking that you're a 40-year old virgin. You run across a beautiful woman with her husband at the grocery store and think to yourself, "damn, what I'd give to bang her and take this man's place..." It's understandable why he would view it like that, but the husband may be thinking "PLEASE take this crazy b**** off my hands!" Human nature is always wanting more.

Redrum187
03-19-2019, 04:26 PM
I'm speaking more specifically about 2003 when Duncan had a 37 yr old D-Rob, a 20 year old Parker and a rookie Manu.

As for Hakeem vs Dirk, Hakeem objectively accomplished more in that he went to 3 Finals and won 2 whereas Dirk went to 2 Finals and won 1. But the question is did he do more with less? IDK, yes Hakeem won in the years MJ retired, but during that era the West was far more loaded than the East and Hakeem had to go through Stockon/Malone Jazz, Payton/Kemp Sonics, Barkley Suns, D-Rob Spurs, Clyde's Blazers. In Hakeem's 93-94 run he faced a team the last 2 Western Conference Finals teams (Blazers, Suns) and a team that would go on to make 2 consecutive Finals (Jazz).

Very good points, especially when speaking of Hakeem's collective Finals appearances. The Spurs 2003 run is definitely worth mentioning now that you point it out. Very impressive, but I'd still put the overall squad as better than Hakeem's and Dirk's. If we were speaking on an individual championship, either of Hakeem's, I would still argue neither was superior to Dirk's 2011 championship. While the west may have been loaded in Hakeem's time, they were no less loaded in 2011 for Dirk. While it's cute the Jazz made 2 consecutive Finals appearances, the Lakers were back-to-back champions. While MJ was playing baseball and Hakeem was winning championships, Dirk had to face the 2nd greatest player of all time, along with a top 25 player of all time, and a top 15 player in the league at the time in the Finals. In that championship run, Dirk beat out what would eventually be 5x NBA League MVP players (who also had All Star caliber teammates as well).

valade16
03-19-2019, 04:41 PM
Very good points, especially when speaking of Hakeem's collective Finals appearances. The Spurs 2003 run is definitely worth mentioning now that you point it out. Very impressive, but I'd still put the overall squad as better than Hakeem's and Dirk's. If we were speaking on an individual championship, either of Hakeem's, I would still argue neither was superior to Dirk's 2011 championship. While the west may have been loaded in Hakeem's time, they were no less loaded in 2011 for Dirk. While it's cute the Jazz made 2 consecutive Finals appearances, the Lakers were back-to-back champions. While MJ was playing baseball and Hakeem was winning championships, Dirk had to face the 2nd greatest player of all time, along with a top 25 player of all time, and a top 15 player in the league at the time in the Finals. In that championship run, Dirk beat out what would eventually be 5x NBA League MVP players (who also had All Star caliber teammates as well).

I think Duncan's 03 team is better than Dirk's 11 or Hakeem's 93 teams though Duncan probably played the best out of all 3 during his run.

As for Dirk's team and Championship. Yes, Dirk faced the vaunted Bron Heat, however that was their first year together and they were clearly still working out the kinks.

We must also look at the sheer experience Dirk played with in 2011. Jason Kidd, Shawn Marion, Tyson Chandler, Peja Stojakovic, Jason Terry. They were all team leaders and key contributors on past Conference Finals teams. The team was disciplined and experienced. That being said, Hakeem's 93 team was eerily similar in that it featured a ton of talented and savvy veteran players like Thorpe, Maxwell, Horry, Elie, and Sam Cassell.

I think Dirk beating the Heat was more impressive than any team Hakeem beat that year.

Hawkeye15
03-19-2019, 04:45 PM
No. Dirk was great


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right but his support overachieved, heavily. It never gets talked about that randomly, a few of those guys balled out like they never have, at the perfect time.

Hawkeye15
03-19-2019, 04:48 PM
Define underrate? I'm judging their support based on a comparison of other championship teams' support. If we're talking compared to the league in which they played they were obviously good (if not great) supporting casts. If we're talking compared to the average NBA team from all teams in history, they're again good.

But compared to other championship rosters, those were the weakest outside their top star IMO.

Or to put it another way, I'd rather take the supporting cast for many, many other championship teams over theirs (in the years I'm speaking of).

when you say "support", do you mean Jason Terry for the other 1000 games, or Jason Terry for those finals games? Do you mean JJ Barea from the other 1000 games, or 2011 playoff Barea? Do we factor in Dallas had a variety of wing defenders that perfectly suited the matchup?

I am with you just looking at the talent. But that talent overachieved, picked the exact right time to do so, and was a matchup issue (just like GS did them over 4 years earlier).

Redrum187
03-19-2019, 04:50 PM
I think Duncan's 03 team is better than Dirk's 11 or Hakeem's 93 teams though Duncan probably played the best out of all 3 during his run.

As for Dirk's team and Championship. Yes, Dirk faced the vaunted Bron Heat, however that was their first year together and they were clearly still working out the kinks.

We must also look at the sheer experience Dirk played with in 2011. Jason Kidd, Shawn Marion, Tyson Chandler, Peja Stojakovic, Jason Terry. They were all team leaders and key contributors on past Conference Finals teams. The team was disciplined and experienced. That being said, Hakeem's 93 team was eerily similar in that it featured a ton of talented and savvy veteran players like Thorpe, Maxwell, Horry, Elie, and Sam Cassell.

I think Dirk beating the Heat was more impressive than any team Hakeem beat that year.

Yeah, I sort of feel a little douchy when I put down Dirk's help in 2011. I have to admit while they were shells of their prime selfs and didn't produce close to what they use to, they were loaded with experience and had the 2nd best coach in the NBA at the time in Rick Carlisle (though I'm not sure people considered him such until they won). So when we look back statistically, it helps Dirk's case that he did more having so little as veteran leadership/experience isn't taken into account.

Hawkeye15
03-19-2019, 04:51 PM
I think Duncan's 03 team is better than Dirk's 11 or Hakeem's 93 teams though Duncan probably played the best out of all 3 during his run.

As for Dirk's team and Championship. Yes, Dirk faced the vaunted Bron Heat, however that was their first year together and they were clearly still working out the kinks.

We must also look at the sheer experience Dirk played with in 2011. Jason Kidd, Shawn Marion, Tyson Chandler, Peja Stojakovic, Jason Terry. They were all team leaders and key contributors on past Conference Finals teams. The team was disciplined and experienced. That being said, Hakeem's 93 team was eerily similar in that it featured a ton of talented and savvy veteran players like Thorpe, Maxwell, Horry, Elie, and Sam Cassell.

I think Dirk beating the Heat was more impressive than any team Hakeem beat that year.

well that answers my response to you more or less. On top of that, Barea was insane that playoff run, for him, and Jason Terry was ridiculous. As you listed, they also had vets that were still capable, and very, very focused. Against a team that had overlapping stars, and simply **** the bed.

I do think Hakeem's 93' team was the weakest.

All of this being said, the 2011 ring gave Dirk a massive bump in all time ranking...and rightly so.

Hawkeye15
03-19-2019, 04:53 PM
OK, but loving something and loving something so much that you're willing to let it dominate every aspect of your life and take you away from your family, friends and loved ones for the better part of a year when you're in your 40s is something completely different.

I'll admit that it's impressive that he's still a competent rotational player in the NBA at age 42, but he's not exactly adding anything to his legacy at this point. And I love what I do for a living, but if I could retire tomorrow in my 30s with a ton of money in the bank and spend time with my wife and kid, I'd do it in a heartbeat. And my job is a hell of a lot less challenging and dominates my life substantially less than Vince Carter's does.

it has to be because he wants to play for every team before he leaves

valade16
03-19-2019, 04:53 PM
when you say "support", do you mean Jason Terry for the other 1000 games, or Jason Terry for those finals games? Do you mean JJ Barea from the other 1000 games, or 2011 playoff Barea? Do we factor in Dallas had a variety of wing defenders that perfectly suited the matchup?

I am with you just looking at the talent. But that talent overachieved, picked the exact right time to do so, and was a matchup issue (just like GS did them over 4 years earlier).

Even with all that, would you rather have the 2011 playoff support (even as good as they played) or say any of Magic's supporting casts during his Finals wins? Or Birds? Or MJ's? Or Isiah's?

I agree with what you're saying, but we're comparing them to other Championship teams, they're all good. It's just a question of how good relative to each other.

Hawkeye15
03-19-2019, 04:54 PM
Even with all that, would you rather have the 2011 playoff support (even as good as they played) or say any of Magic's supporting casts during his Finals wins? Or Birds? Or MJ's? Or Isiah's?

I agree with what you're saying, but we're comparing them to other Championship teams, they're all good. It's just a question of how good relative to each other.

oh no doubt dude, Dirk's support was weaker than most chip rosters. It just wasn't as dire as some make it out to be..

I mean, way to list the greatest support(s) ever haha. When you star can not be the best player on your team for a series and you still win, yeah, you are stacked

Redrum187
03-19-2019, 05:01 PM
when you say "support", do you mean Jason Terry for the other 1000 games, or Jason Terry for those finals games? Do you mean JJ Barea from the other 1000 games, or 2011 playoff Barea? Do we factor in Dallas had a variety of wing defenders that perfectly suited the matchup?

I am with you just looking at the talent. But that talent overachieved, picked the exact right time to do so, and was a matchup issue (just like GS did them over 4 years earlier).

Jason Terry played abnormally well that postseason for sure. Barea sliced and diced his way to the rim in his short playing time that postseason too. However, both players playing at a higher level than they were accustom to are directly related to Dirk Nowitzki's ability to score away from the basket. This was pre-spacing is everything/jack up as many 3's as possible where the valueof having a big who can stretch defenses wasn't as fully appreciated as it is now. If defenses didn't focus entirely on Dirk (which Pop admitted was his entire strategy every time they faced the Mavericks) then neither Terry or Barea would have done as well as they did.

If Terry and Barea were replaced by superior player X and Y, then X and Y would have produced better than they were accustom to as well thanks to Dirk's skillset/opponent's focus on him. It wasn't that Terry and Barea "somehow got better that postseason", it's that the way teams play defense changes come the postseason and they went with the game plan of "anyone but Dirk" which may have worked if only Terry/Barea "overachieved"... unfortunately for them, Dirk typically plays better in the postseason than the regular season.

Hawkeye15
03-19-2019, 05:04 PM
Jason Terry played abnormally well that postseason for sure. Barea sliced and diced his way to the rim in his short playing time that postseason too. However, both players playing at a higher level than they were accustom to are directly related to Dirk Nowitzki's ability to score away from the basket. This was pre-spacing is everything/jack up as many 3's as possible where the valueof having a big who can stretch defenses wasn't as fully appreciated as it is now. If defenses didn't focus entirely on Dirk (which Pop admitted was his entire strategy every time they faced the Mavericks) then neither Terry or Barea would have done as well as they did.

If Terry and Barea were replaced by superior player X and Y, then X and Y would have produced better than their accustom to as well thanks to Dirk's skillset/opponent's focus on him. It wasn't that Terry and Barea "somehow got better that postseason", it's that the way teams play defense changes come the postseason and they went with the game plan of "anyone but Dirk" which may have worked if only Terry/Barea "overachieved"... unfortunately for them, Dirk typically plays better in the postseason than the regular season.

for sure man, and I don't mean to take anything away from Dirk, we just have to be careful in underrating the rest of the rosters performance, versus just looking at the name(s). Dirk was THE biggest reason by a mile, but his roster stepped up, due to having a bunch of capable vets that smelled a chip and balled out beyond their norm.

Redrum187
03-19-2019, 05:15 PM
oh no doubt dude, Dirk's support was weaker than most chip rosters. It just wasn't as dire as some make it out to be..

I mean, way to list the greatest support(s) ever haha. When you star can not be the best player on your team for a series and you still win, yeah, you are stacked

It wasn't as "dire" as in comparison to what though? I wonder if we are able to go back to threads in 2011 where many people thought Dirk's defense sucked, Dirk was soft, the Mavericks are filled with washed-up has beens... Now, they are suddenly not too shabby.

Even if we compared Dirk's help to the league in 2011 and not All Time Championship rosters, it was probably only above-average. Obviously "above-average" isn't terrible, but just look at 3 of the teams they beat that postseason.

Kobe Bryant: Pau Gasol - Lamar Odom - Andrew Bynum - Ron Artest
Dirk's Robin in Jason Terry was absolutely considered infernior to all of those players...

Kevin Durant: Russell Westbrook - James Harden
Dirk's Robin in Jason Terry would be laughed at if compared to either of the Durant's help...

LeBron James: Dwayne Wade - Chris Bosh
Dirk's Robin in Jason Terry would likewise be laughed at if compared to either of LeBron's help...

So while Dirk's help in 2011 wasn't "dire" in comparison to the Minnesota Timberwolves' help... I wouldn't exactly say it was elite in comparison to the rest of the league.

The argument only gets made exponentially clearer when we look at every single NBA Championship roster.

Redrum187
03-19-2019, 05:23 PM
for sure man, and I don't mean to take anything away from Dirk, we just have to be careful in underrating the rest of the rosters performance, versus just looking at the name(s). Dirk was THE biggest reason by a mile, but his roster stepped up, due to having a bunch of capable vets that smelled a chip and balled out beyond their norm.

Agreed, I have to admit I overlook the veteran experience when I analyze the 2011 Mavericks. Trying to be objective, I have to acknowledge this and put more stock into it.

ewing
03-19-2019, 06:20 PM
for sure man, and I don't mean to take anything away from Dirk, we just have to be careful in underrating the rest of the rosters performance, versus just looking at the name(s). Dirk was THE biggest reason by a mile, but his roster stepped up, due to having a bunch of capable vets that smelled a chip and balled out beyond their norm.

Maybe but letís be honest KG would have been bounced in the first round with that team and everyone would have said ďpoor KG!Ē


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LakerClipperFan
03-23-2019, 01:10 AM
very cool to see Dirk do this. Class Act all the way!