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Tg11
01-11-2019, 03:15 PM
As far as the Zion Williamson sweepstakes...which teams need Zion Williamson next season?

Top 5 teams who could use him

5- Washington Wizards
4- Atlanta Hawks
3- New York Knicks
2- Chicago Bulls
1- Cleveland Cavaliers (Cavs)

Hawkeye15
01-11-2019, 03:16 PM
A Zion/Towns frontcourt would be pretty sexy

Tg11
01-11-2019, 03:19 PM
Well Minnesota would have to tank the rest of their season but it doesn't look like they are going to especially when it comes to getting Zion

Tg11
01-11-2019, 03:21 PM
Plus if Zion were to end up in let's say Phoenix he, Ayton and Booker together would be pretty dangerous especially if you add a solid PG right along

However if Zion ends up in Cleveland they will expect him to be LeBron right away

Hawkeye15
01-11-2019, 03:24 PM
Well Minnesota would have to tank the rest of their season but it doesn't look like they are going to especially when it comes to getting Zion

considering we have never moved up in the draft, ever, I feel it in my bones-this is the year!

JAZZNC
01-11-2019, 03:29 PM
considering we have never moved up in the draft, ever, I feel it in my bones-this is the year!

And then you will trade the pick to us for Dante Exum, 2 2nds, and cash considerations :)

ewing
01-11-2019, 03:34 PM
He is going to NY with KP and Knox along the front line


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cmellofan15
01-11-2019, 03:39 PM
He is going to NY with KP and Knox along the front line


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Will be the best 30 win team ever

ewing
01-11-2019, 03:41 PM
Will be the best 30 win team ever

Sure Mello fan

Tg11
01-11-2019, 04:04 PM
If Zion ends up on the Knicks with Porzingis, Knox, Hardaway and you land a big name free agent in the off season this summer then the Knicks would look even better especially if you add Zion in that mix

IndyRealist
01-11-2019, 04:12 PM
"need" is a weird word here. If he's as advertised, just about every team could use him. PF is relatively weak outside of AD, with a ton of traditional SFs playing as a big. A real PF is going to smack the sh** out of these stretch 4s, and teams are going fo have to play 2 bigs again to deal with him.

So by "need" I take that to mean "which teams could be saved from a rebuild by getting Zion". I'd put Portland, LAL, Boston, Memphis, and maybe San Antonio in that boat. They feel like they're on the cusp of drastically changing their rosters if they keep going as-is, and getting a star big on a rookie deal would make them consider going forward with their current teams. Teams like Minnesota, Houston, etc. are not rebuilding no matter what. Teams like New York, Brooklyn, and Atlanta are already rebuilding. I doubt Zion changes anything in that regard.

Tg11
01-11-2019, 04:35 PM
Zion to the Bulls with that young core of LaVine, Markkanen, Carter Jr, Dunn, etc. and then you add Zion in Chicago...they would definitely be a team to watch

Rivera
01-11-2019, 04:42 PM
looking at the 5 worst teams

Cavs
Suns
Knicks
Bulls
Hawks

All need Zion

Best fits is probably Knicks and Suns

Hawks could be interesting if Trae gets better

Tg11
01-11-2019, 04:52 PM
looking at the 5 worst teams

Cavs
Suns
Knicks
Bulls
Hawks

All need Zion

Best fits is probably Knicks and Suns

Hawks could be interesting if Trae gets better

Yeah if Trae Young gets better and you add Zion to him, Prince and Collins then Atlanta could they become a playoff team again? It is possible

GREATNESS ONE
01-11-2019, 06:08 PM
Oakland Warriors

Scoots
01-11-2019, 11:09 PM
Well Minnesota would have to tank the rest of their season but it doesn't look like they are going to especially when it comes to getting Zion

You asked who needed him, not who had a chance to get him.

The Warriors need him, they are desperate for a big who can score.

prodigy
01-12-2019, 09:43 AM
Best fit is def the cavs. Not even being a homer. Zion needs the ball and since the cavs Don't really have much other then Sexton he will have no problem getting the ball and developing. The Cavs can then build the team around him.

He would look great on the suns but he would have to fit in with the players they have.

BTW- I love this kids attitude. He was asked where he wants to play and he said anywhere that wants me. I love that attitude. We have to many wimps and coward athletes these days who only wanna play on certain teams. Zion is like screw that, ill make anyone a winner. Thats what makes you elite in my eyes.

Driven
01-12-2019, 11:05 AM
You asked who needed him, not who had a chance to get him.

The Warriors need him, they are desperate for a big who can score.

I donít know if you know what the word need means


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Vee-Rex
01-12-2019, 11:59 AM
Best fit is def the cavs. Not even being a homer. Zion needs the ball and since the cavs Don't really have much other then Sexton he will have no problem getting the ball and developing. The Cavs can then build the team around him.

He would look great on the suns but he would have to fit in with the players they have.

BTW- I love this kids attitude. He was asked where he wants to play and he said anywhere that wants me. I love that attitude. We have to many wimps and coward athletes these days who only wanna play on certain teams. Zion is like screw that, ill make anyone a winner. Thats what makes you elite in my eyes.

Yup, same attitude Baker had.

I think he would pair nicely with Sexton.

Scoots
01-12-2019, 01:58 PM
I donít know if you know what the word need means

If you look up those off-season listings of "team needs" for all of the teams, for the Warriors you would have found "big who can score" in them. I was using the common usage of "need" which is to say "want" rather than "require".

Driven
01-12-2019, 02:41 PM
Still not sure if you know what the word need means


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Scoots
01-12-2019, 05:20 PM
Still not sure if you know what the word need means

:) We all have to live with our limitations.

cmellofan15
01-12-2019, 05:29 PM
Sure Mello fan

Yeah I shouldn't talk about the Knicks like that...they've given us so much and asked for so little in return

Mr.B
01-12-2019, 05:53 PM
Dallas Mavericks

Raps08-09 Champ
01-13-2019, 02:11 PM
I personally want him to go to the Knicks.

Jamiecballer
01-13-2019, 10:39 PM
The only 2 teams I dont want him to end up with are ATL and CLE. Cleveland right after James it's just unfair. And ATL is going to stick with Trae Young way too long to avoid acknowledging what a draft day disaster that was and I want to see guys like Williamson end up somewhere they can thrive because it's great for fans.

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zookman65
01-14-2019, 12:37 AM
The only 2 teams I dont want him to end up with are ATL and CLE. Cleveland right after James it's just unfair. And ATL is going to stick with Trae Young way too long to avoid acknowledging what a draft day disaster that was and I want to see guys like Williamson end up somewhere they can thrive because it's great for fans.

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That's a great point. I have had arguments with Hawks fans that seem to be in terminal denial about not keeping Luka. He clearly should have been the first pick. His clutch numbers are sick and if not for some of his own incompetent teammates not giving him the ball at high leverage moments (like Harrison Barnes tonight) his usage numbers would be off the chart.

Quinnsanity
01-14-2019, 12:58 AM
I know Trae hasn't done much this year, but I'd love to see Zion in Atlanta. Just get two really unique players together along with those other nice youngsters in Collins and Huerter. Cool stuff would happen.

ManningToTyree
01-14-2019, 03:58 AM
The Knicks need to be saved by Zion. Landing him could start a domino affect to make them relevant again


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zookman65
01-14-2019, 09:30 AM
Are we sure Williamson will be an above average offensive player in the NBA? His actual offensive skills are mediocre (handle, shooting, vision etc). His athletic ability and attitude is off the charts. I dont see him coming into the league and averaging 20 points off the bat like Luka as a teenager.

Tg11
01-14-2019, 09:56 AM
Zion Williamson if he goes to the Knicks and the Knicks win the lottery it will be the first time in like over 3 plus decades that the Knicks end up with the #1 pick...the last pick to be #1 and drafted by the Knicks...Patrick Ewing in 1985 and then if Zion goes to New York the Ewing comparisons would definitely be there especially if he does end up going to the Knicks

Scoots
01-14-2019, 10:36 AM
Zion Williamson if he goes to the Knicks and the Knicks win the lottery it will be the first time in like over 3 plus decades that the Knicks end up with the #1 pick...the last pick to be #1 and drafted by the Knicks...Patrick Ewing in 1985 and then if Zion goes to New York the Ewing comparisons would definitely be there especially if he does end up going to the Knicks

And that Ewing pick is what caused the lottery to be weighted because people were sure it was fixed to get Ewing to the Knicks.

Tg11
01-14-2019, 11:55 AM
Yeah but even so if Zion ends up on the Knicks he will at least make them an exciting team to watch again especially once Porzingis comes back

ewing
01-14-2019, 11:58 AM
Yeah but even so if Zion ends up on the Knicks he will at least make them an exciting team to watch again especially once Porzingis comes back

If we get Zion i will lose it. remember the Knicks also have a lot of cap space this summer and Zion plus a returning KP makes them a much more attractive destination

Tg11
01-14-2019, 12:02 PM
If we get Zion i will lose it. remember the Knicks also have a lot of cap space this summer and Zion plus a returning KP makes them a much more attractive destination

Exactly that and they have cap space so if they go after one max player this summer and land that player whoever it may be plus you add KP a healthy KP and he is the player he was before the injury and then if Zion lives up to his hype and he is not a bust then the Knicks could be contenders come next season

AllBall
01-14-2019, 03:56 PM
It's unfortunate, but Zion will end up on a franchise who can't pull their heads out their behind for any significant amount of time, so they won't actually know what to do with him and squander his potential. If it wasn't for the money and the NCAA being a turd institution I'd say he should stay another year.

Hawkeye15
01-14-2019, 04:02 PM
The only 2 teams I dont want him to end up with are ATL and CLE. Cleveland right after James it's just unfair. And ATL is going to stick with Trae Young way too long to avoid acknowledging what a draft day disaster that was and I want to see guys like Williamson end up somewhere they can thrive because it's great for fans.

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Yeah the Cavs have had way too many #1 picks in the past 15 years (4 of them). They should not keep being rewarded for sucking so badly.

Vee-Rex
01-14-2019, 05:51 PM
Yeah the Cavs have had way too many #1 picks in the past 15 years (4 of them). They should not keep being rewarded for sucking so badly.

1 in 2003, 1 in 2013, and 1 in 2014.

The 2011 one (Kyrie) was the Clippers pick we traded for. I don't count that for "sucking badly" since it was acquired in a trade.

2013 draft was mostly forgettable for the top end prospects (Dipo being the exception was super raw and we had Kyrie and Dion) and the 2014 draft we were unlucky Embiid was injured.

Hell, if we had won the 2012 instead of 2013 we'd have the consensus #1 in that draft: AD.

So maybe the lottery balls were favorable but certainly not the prospects/draft year and health.

Hawkeye15
01-15-2019, 12:33 AM
1 in 2003, 1 in 2013, and 1 in 2014.

The 2011 one (Kyrie) was the Clippers pick we traded for. I don't count that for "sucking badly" since it was acquired in a trade.

2013 draft was mostly forgettable for the top end prospects (Dipo being the exception was super raw and we had Kyrie and Dion) and the 2014 draft we were unlucky Embiid was injured.

Hell, if we had won the 2012 instead of 2013 we'd have the consensus #1 in that draft: AD.

So maybe the lottery balls were favorable but certainly not the prospects/draft year and health.

Dude they at least had them. Be a Wolves fan when it comes to the draft...

Vee-Rex
01-15-2019, 01:24 AM
Dude they at least had them. Be a Wolves fan when it comes to the draft...

No thanks :laugh2:

prodigy
01-15-2019, 10:09 AM
The only 2 teams I dont want him to end up with are ATL and CLE. Cleveland right after James it's just unfair. And ATL is going to stick with Trae Young way too long to avoid acknowledging what a draft day disaster that was and I want to see guys like Williamson end up somewhere they can thrive because it's great for fans.

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Ya Cavs 1 title in franchise history and 1st for the entire city of Cleveland since 1964 is way to much. Man Cleveland wins all the titles so ya i see why you don't want the Cavs to be competitive.

Jamiecballer
01-17-2019, 07:42 PM
Ya Cavs 1 title in franchise history and 1st for the entire city of Cleveland since 1964 is way to much. Man Cleveland wins all the titles so ya i see why you don't want the Cavs to be competitive.Hey, save an all-time great for the rest of us. You were gifted the same one twice, I think you've definitely had your share dont you think?

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FlashBolt
01-17-2019, 07:59 PM
Would love to see Zion for the Knicks.. What a show MSG would be. Reality is, he's probably going to a crappy team with poor leadership and ends up wasting a valuable portion of his career/development.

Tg11
01-17-2019, 08:24 PM
Would love to see Zion for the Knicks.. What a show MSG would be. Reality is, he's probably going to a crappy team with poor leadership and ends up wasting a valuable portion of his career/development.

Most likely to the Cavs or Suns

ewing
01-17-2019, 11:07 PM
Would love to see Zion for the Knicks.. What a show MSG would be. Reality is, he's probably going to a crappy team with poor leadership and ends up wasting a valuable portion of his career/development.

Poor Zion


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Scoots
01-17-2019, 11:29 PM
Most likely to the Cavs or Suns

Depending on which teams have the best finishing kick in the Dyin' for Zion tankoff down the stretch. I wouldn't be surprised if that resulted in the finals being hosted by an Eastern team.

That said, this draft is really very good in the top 5 so maybe the HARD tank will be avoided by too many teams.

Tg11
01-18-2019, 12:45 AM
Depending on which teams have the best finishing kick in the Dyin' for Zion tankoff down the stretch. I wouldn't be surprised if that resulted in the finals being hosted by an Eastern team.

That said, this draft is really very good in the top 5 so maybe the HARD tank will be avoided by too many teams.

Yeah but Zion is the player everyone wants

Scoots
01-18-2019, 12:58 AM
Yeah but Zion is the player everyone wants

Sure, but the odds are worse now so maybe teams won't try quite so hard to suck

prodigy
01-18-2019, 10:18 AM
Hey, save an all-time great for the rest of us. You were gifted the same one twice, I think you've definitely had your share dont you think?

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Goes to who needs him most. Worse them in league is most likely cavs. I know thats not how the draft works. but worse team has best odds. The Question is though which team needs him most. Well its the worse team clearly needs the best projected player.

IndyRealist
01-18-2019, 10:50 AM
Goes to who needs him most. Worse them in league is most likely cavs. I know thats not how the draft works. but worse team has best odds. The Question is though which team needs him most. Well its the worse team clearly needs the best projected player.

Worst team no longer has best odds. Worst 3 teams have equal odds at #1-#4

Vee-Rex
01-18-2019, 07:06 PM
As long as the Cavs are a bottom 3 team I'm happy. Nick Gilbert will get us Zion.

Chronz
01-18-2019, 07:35 PM
Being a Cavs fan is awesome. You either hope for a finals birth/possible chip. Or you among the best draft teams.

Tg11
01-19-2019, 09:13 AM
Being a Cavs fan is awesome. You either hope for a finals birth/possible chip. Or you among the best draft teams.

Which is why if Zion goes to the Cavs...they will at least be exciting again

prodigy
01-19-2019, 12:15 PM
Worst team no longer has best odds. Worst 3 teams have equal odds at #1-#4

My point still stands. The OP is which team needs him. Well the worse team in the league does lol. Cavs

Tg11
01-19-2019, 12:37 PM
My point still stands. The OP is which team needs him. Well the worse team in the league does lol. Cavs

Cavs most definitely need Zion to help turn their franchise around

AllBall
01-19-2019, 04:25 PM
My point still stands. The OP is which team needs him. Well the worse team in the league does lol. Cavs

Maybe, but would you hand a high-powered sportscar to a teen who just got his license because he needs a car? These bottom feeder teams don't know WTF they're doing and have toxic environments to begin with. The league needs to stop rewarding ineptitude.

ewing
01-19-2019, 04:52 PM
Maybe, but would you hand a high-powered sportscar to a teen who just got his license because he needs a car? These bottom feeder teams don't know WTF they're doing and have toxic environments to begin with. The league needs to stop rewarding ineptitude.

Thatís BS they need to figure out how to do a better job rewarding them. Ever since it became standard for guys to declare when they are clearly projects the draft canít give the immediate relief it is meant too


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Tg11
01-19-2019, 05:15 PM
Plus by him going to Cleveland he ends up having all that unnecessary pressure of trying to be LeBron 2.0

ewing
01-19-2019, 05:24 PM
Plus by him going to Cleveland he ends up having all that unnecessary pressure of trying to be LeBron 2.0

Heís going to ny


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Vallejo Raiders
01-19-2019, 05:52 PM
Please go to the Kings

Scoots
01-19-2019, 07:10 PM
I hope he goes to a well coached team with a good owner.

Tg11
01-19-2019, 07:16 PM
However, if Phoenix keep tanking and they get Zion...it's a wrap with him, Booker, Ayton and if they manage to get a PG either at trade deadline or in the summer then who knows where Phoenix can go especially if Zion ends up on their team

IndyRealist
01-19-2019, 08:21 PM
My point still stands. The OP is which team needs him. Well the worse team in the league does lol. Cavs

Wasn't arguing, just making a minor clarification. Cavs most definitely need him. They're kinda rudderless atm.

Vee-Rex
01-19-2019, 08:33 PM
Wasn't arguing, just making a minor clarification. Cavs most definitely need him. They're kinda rudderless atm.

Tristan said we're still the team to beat in the East. So until we're mathematically out of the playoffs, everyone better put some RESPECK on our name.

IndyRealist
01-19-2019, 09:03 PM
Tristan said we're still the team to beat in the East. So until we're mathematically out of the playoffs, everyone better put some RESPECK on our name.

If Tristan said it then it must be true.

AllBall
01-20-2019, 04:41 PM
Thatís BS they need to figure out how to do a better job rewarding them. Ever since it became standard for guys to declare when they are clearly projects the draft canít give the immediate relief it is meant too


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To be fair, I believe that's part of the reason for the changes being made to the G-League including the "elite prospects" contracts...which I know is far form the final vision, but man that' can't come soon enough for the NBA.

Tg11
01-21-2019, 12:08 AM
Best bets to land Zion as it stands right now; 5 worst teams in the NBA

1- Cleveland Cavaliers
2- Phoenix Suns
3- Chicago Bulls
4- New York Knicks
5- Atlanta Hawks

* Cleveland with the worst record; I like their chances to land Zion. To be honest out of those teams Cleveland probably needs him the most especially with such a young team and you can actually build your future around Zion; build this team around him. Not to mention if he does live up to his hype starting next season then he can actually make that young Cleveland team better just by him being there.

Heediot
01-21-2019, 12:19 AM
he needs to work on his ft. boy was shook to take them late vs. virginia. still his size, mobility and handles were givng virginia fits.

Scoots
01-21-2019, 02:42 AM
he needs to work on his ft. boy was shook to take them late vs. virginia. still his size, mobility and handles were givng virginia fits.

He's got a lot of growing to do, but his athleticism and his touch are amazing, and his drive to maximize the team game ... he's only going to get better.

Tg11
01-21-2019, 06:40 AM
He's got a lot of growing to do, but his athleticism and his touch are amazing, and his drive to maximize the team game ... he's only going to get better.

Plus at collegiate level he's like a man amongst boys; grown into that NBA man body already but in the NBA playing against grown men so let's see if his game at college level translates to the NBA

prodigy
01-22-2019, 12:07 PM
Plus by him going to Cleveland he ends up having all that unnecessary pressure of trying to be LeBron 2.0

poor baby. Thats life. pressure everywhere. Worse in NY

Hawkeye15
01-22-2019, 12:43 PM
Being a Cavs fan is awesome. You either hope for a finals birth/possible chip. Or you among the best draft teams.

it's total b.s. They need to spend 10 years in purgatory, ie, mediocracy. Like everyone else..

Hawkeye15
01-22-2019, 12:45 PM
what does "need" mean? If the Cavs get him, he likely spends 7 years wasting away like LeBron did. Why not wish he gets to a team that already has another young stud in fold? Like my Wolves :)

Tg11
01-22-2019, 01:19 PM
Only way Zion would go there is by trade and Minnesota has no assets to trade away to Cleveland especially for Zion and isn't Minnesota over the cap now

Hawkeye15
01-22-2019, 01:24 PM
Only way Zion would go there is by trade and Minnesota has no assets to trade away to Cleveland especially for Zion and isn't Minnesota over the cap now

I mean, Minny isn't making the playoffs, so they would be in the lottery. No way they have any real chance at him, but the Bulls skipped 12 teams to land Rose, so **** happens.

prodigy
01-22-2019, 02:35 PM
it's total b.s. They need to spend 10 years in purgatory, ie, mediocracy. Like everyone else..

Cleveland sports have spent most of our sports years in purgatory... lol so nahh we will take Zion

prodigy
01-22-2019, 02:37 PM
what does "need" mean? If the Cavs get him, he likely spends 7 years wasting away like LeBron did. Why not wish he gets to a team that already has another young stud in fold? Like my Wolves :)

thats only if Cavs let Zion be the GM like Cavs did with lebron and watch him destroy the team. Lebron worse GM ever.

Cavs learned their lesson from that.

Hawkeye15
01-22-2019, 02:42 PM
Cleveland sports have spent most of our sports years in purgatory... lol so nahh we will take Zion

you are talking to a MN sports fan dude. We are basically brothers, only we didn't get the opportunity to draft jesus like you did. You have had enough ****ing luck in the lottery, let someone else take a turn.

Hawkeye15
01-22-2019, 02:43 PM
thats only if Cavs let Zion be the GM like Cavs did with lebron and watch him destroy the team. Lebron worse GM ever.

Cavs learned their lesson from that.

LeBron made you relevant, took you to heights never seen in Cleveland basketball, and won you a chip. Every Cleveland fan should have a statue of him in their home.

Tg11
01-22-2019, 03:12 PM
Zion in Cleveland...Zion be the new King of Akron

trueknickfan
01-22-2019, 11:19 PM
Going to the Cavs would be a waste to his career, because they aren't going anywhere no time soon and no big name free agent if any is signing there either.

Scoots
01-23-2019, 01:26 AM
Cleveland sports have spent most of our sports years in purgatory... lol so nahh we will take Zion

There have been many great teams in Cleveland, you just forget (or never knew).

Tg11
01-23-2019, 07:16 AM
It may be a waste if he goes there but if he lives up to the hype then a lot of people will want to play with him especially if he develops more as the years go by

prodigy
01-23-2019, 09:35 AM
LeBron made you relevant, took you to heights never seen in Cleveland basketball, and won you a chip. Every Cleveland fan should have a statue of him in their home.

Only one man i worship and its not Lebron. I respect Lebron and happy he got us a title. But im also not blind to the crap shoot he built around him and the crap he left us with. Worse mistake this franchise made was listening to lebron. They needed a head strong GM (kinda like the Browns did with Dorsey). Let him build the team. Dan Gilbert was so scared of losing Lebron he bent over backwards for him. Hired his dumb friends to positions, let Lebron make decisions etc...

prodigy
01-23-2019, 09:37 AM
There have been many great teams in Cleveland, you just forget (or never knew).

Well im not 90 years old either lol. na i know Indians had some good teams in the 90's. I love my teams though. good or bad im a proud Cleveland sports fan.

prodigy
01-23-2019, 09:40 AM
.

prodigy
01-23-2019, 09:41 AM
Going to the Cavs would be a waste to his career, because they aren't going anywhere no time soon and no big name free agent if any is signing there either.

Same can be said for 90% of the teams in the league. its your mindset which is the same as a lot of other people that hurts sports. Players should take pride in turning organizations around and love competition (not like htey won't get paid). These days thats all a thing of the past. Now its whats the easiest way to get titles and strip clubs. Its sad.

Tg11
01-23-2019, 10:16 AM
Praying Zion goes to the Cavs

Hawkeye15
01-23-2019, 11:04 AM
Only one man i worship and its not Lebron. I respect Lebron and happy he got us a title. But im also not blind to the crap shoot he built around him and the crap he left us with. Worse mistake this franchise made was listening to lebron. They needed a head strong GM (kinda like the Browns did with Dorsey). Let him build the team. Dan Gilbert was so scared of losing Lebron he bent over backwards for him. Hired his dumb friends to positions, let Lebron make decisions etc...

I mean, had you not landed LeBron in the draft, your entire franchise history relegates back to terrible post Price-Daughtery. Again, you guys owe him way more credit than you give him. He is the ONLY reason you won a championship, and were a great team for so many years.

I criticize KG, but he aint no ****ing LeBron James either.

Stunner
01-23-2019, 06:41 PM
Chicago just watch

FlashBolt
01-23-2019, 06:46 PM
I mean, had you not landed LeBron in the draft, your entire franchise history relegates back to terrible post Price-Daughtery. Again, you guys owe him way more credit than you give him. He is the ONLY reason you won a championship, and were a great team for so many years.

I criticize KG, but he aint no ****ing LeBron James either.

Talk about ungrateful, lol. They were bad before LeBron got there and bad after he left. Plenty of franchises never sniff a damn Finals appearance. They have LeBron to thank for making to five of them..

ewing
01-23-2019, 10:33 PM
I mean, had you not landed LeBron in the draft, your entire franchise history relegates back to terrible post Price-Daughtery. Again, you guys owe him way more credit than you give him. He is the ONLY reason you won a championship, and were a great team for so many years.

I criticize KG, but he aint no ****ing LeBron James either.

Irving would have turned Wiggins into a superstar and they would be good now


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Scoots
01-24-2019, 12:19 AM
Well im not 90 years old either lol. na i know Indians had some good teams in the 90's. I love my teams though. good or bad im a proud Cleveland sports fan.

The Browns too. Jim Brown, Marion Motley, Bernie Kosar, Otto Graham, Lou Groza, Ozzie Newsom, Clay Matthews. I never saw Motley play (not NEARLY old enough) but I've seen film and he was a monster.

Tg11
01-24-2019, 07:14 AM
Which is why I'm saying Zion Williamson is the next big thing or could potentially be the next big thing in the town of Cleveland should they draft him

Hawkeye15
01-24-2019, 11:17 AM
Irving would have turned Wiggins into a superstar and they would be good now


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hahahahahahahahahaha

prodigy
01-25-2019, 10:28 AM
I mean, had you not landed LeBron in the draft, your entire franchise history relegates back to terrible post Price-Daughtery. Again, you guys owe him way more credit than you give him. He is the ONLY reason you won a championship, and were a great team for so many years.

I criticize KG, but he aint no ****ing LeBron James either.

I mean same could be said for a lot of teams. If Bulls didn't have MJ, this team didn't have this guy or that guy lol. I'm not sure what you mean by I don't give Lebron enough credit? I consider him the best player of all-time. Loved the fact he won a ship in Cleveland which means more then anything he will do in LA or did in Miami. But i bow to no man. You can do that.

prodigy
01-25-2019, 10:29 AM
The Browns too. Jim Brown, Marion Motley, Bernie Kosar, Otto Graham, Lou Groza, Ozzie Newsom, Clay Matthews. I never saw Motley play (not NEARLY old enough) but I've seen film and he was a monster.

last ship was 1964

Hawkeye15
01-25-2019, 11:28 AM
I mean same could be said for a lot of teams. If Bulls didn't have MJ, this team didn't have this guy or that guy lol. I'm not sure what you mean by I don't give Lebron enough credit? I consider him the best player of all-time. Loved the fact he won a ship in Cleveland which means more then anything he will do in LA or did in Miami. But i bow to no man. You can do that.

the same can't be said of nearly any teams. We got KG, who was a generational player, but we maxed out at 50 wins and 1st round bye bye. You got LEBRON JAMES. He carried a pile of crap to 60 wins and deep playoff runs, and won you a chip. Then you got more #1 picks. And more. My point is, Cleveland has had enough, time for another team already.

Ungrateful is the word, as Flashbot stated. Exactly right. You don't need a statue, or to protect him, but Cleveland fans will look back years from now more fondly on LeBron I think.

JAZZNC
01-25-2019, 11:51 AM
I can't imagine being a Cleveland fan and criticizing LeBron. I'll echo Hawkeye, the Jazz had Stockton and Malone for 2 decades and never got a ring. Be the **** grateful for what he did and thank God he was born in Cleveland.

Scoots
01-25-2019, 12:18 PM
last ship was 1964

But they have been good at times since then.

Hawkeye15
01-25-2019, 12:22 PM
I can't imagine being a Cleveland fan and criticizing LeBron. I'll echo Hawkeye, the Jazz had Stockton and Malone for 2 decades and never got a ring. Be the **** grateful for what he did and thank God he was born in Cleveland.

the only thing I can imagine is his showtime way of leaving the first time around just burned bridges.

prodigy
01-25-2019, 02:07 PM
Ungrateful is the word, as Flashbot stated. Exactly right. You don't need a statue, or to protect him, but Cleveland fans will look back years from now more fondly on LeBron I think.

aww poor baby LMAO! I've stated enough times how I feel about Lebron. You guys want me to drain him dry. I'm good on that lol. I don't worship athlete's sorry buddy. Def thankful for what he does on and off the court as I mentioned many times. But he deserves some of the blame for those teams that were not good. He flat out told Boozer to leave. (from boozers own mouth). He demanded cavs sign Shump, JR, TT to those horrible contracts etc... Dan Gilbert messed up listening to him so much. But most owners would.

prodigy
01-25-2019, 02:12 PM
I can't imagine being a Cleveland fan and criticizing LeBron. I'll echo Hawkeye, the Jazz had Stockton and Malone for 2 decades and never got a ring. Be the **** grateful for what he did and thank God he was born in Cleveland.

He was born in akron actually...

Show where im not grateful for what he did please. I will be waiting for ur reply. If you cannot give Quotes and proof I will accept ur apology. He did hurt the team with some of his demands though. Thats just a fact. its his fault and cavs ownership for giving him that much power. Speaking the truth about that is not disrespecting anything he does off the court or the ship he won. Amazing thing's by the best Player ever.

MJ is a crap owner/GM whatever he is. 2nd greatest player of all time though.

Tg11
01-25-2019, 02:16 PM
Can we just get back to the topic of Zion Williamson but also just look at what he's doing for Duke right now

Hawkeye15
01-25-2019, 02:50 PM
aww poor baby LMAO! I've stated enough times how I feel about Lebron. You guys want me to drain him dry. I'm good on that lol. I don't worship athlete's sorry buddy. Def thankful for what he does on and off the court as I mentioned many times. But he deserves some of the blame for those teams that were not good. He flat out told Boozer to leave. (from boozers own mouth). He demanded cavs sign Shump, JR, TT to those horrible contracts etc... Dan Gilbert messed up listening to him so much. But most owners would.

worship an athlete? Nah.

All the **** he demanded means nothing. He is like almost every other top 10 player to come along-tough to deal with.

Do you trust Boozer after his dick move btw? Cmon.

Anyways, it seemed to come off as ungrateful to some degree. Complain all you want. In 10 years, you will long for the Lebron days you are *****ing about, trust me.

Hawkeye15
01-25-2019, 02:52 PM
Can we just get back to the topic of Zion Williamson but also just look at what he's doing for Duke right now

what, dunking on players where 99% won't sniff the NBA?

College players don't impress me. Some skillsets/athleticism mean a nice transition into the NBA, but production in college is a huge who cares for me.

Rivera
01-25-2019, 02:57 PM
what, dunking on players where 99% won't sniff the NBA?

College players don't impress me. Some skillsets/athleticism mean a nice transition into the NBA, but production in college is a huge who cares for me.

man you are one tough critic. You havent been impressed at all by Zions play? Dude has shown hes more than a dunker and so far has been super efficient

valade16
01-25-2019, 03:14 PM
aww poor baby LMAO! I've stated enough times how I feel about Lebron. You guys want me to drain him dry. I'm good on that lol. I don't worship athlete's sorry buddy. Def thankful for what he does on and off the court as I mentioned many times. But he deserves some of the blame for those teams that were not good. He flat out told Boozer to leave. (from boozers own mouth). He demanded cavs sign Shump, JR, TT to those horrible contracts etc... Dan Gilbert messed up listening to him so much. But most owners would.

And yet still managed to do better than every GM that Cleveland ever had before him. LeBron is not only your greatest player ever, he's your greatest GM ever lol

Tg11
01-25-2019, 04:14 PM
what, dunking on players where 99% won't sniff the NBA?

College players don't impress me. Some skillsets/athleticism mean a nice transition into the NBA, but production in college is a huge who cares for me.

Zion is impressive...he can do more than dunk...he can pass and shoot and look at the numbers he puts up per game in college too how can you not be impressed?

Hawkeye15
01-25-2019, 04:30 PM
man you are one tough critic. You havent been impressed at all by Zions play? Dude has shown hes more than a dunker and so far has been super efficient

sure, but I am not impressed by what he is doing to college kids. When he is doing it against men, I will be impressed.

Hawkeye15
01-25-2019, 04:30 PM
Zion is impressive...he can do more than dunk...he can pass and shoot and look at the numbers he puts up per game in college too how can you not be impressed?

I have been very candid on what I think of college basketball.

Vee-Rex
01-25-2019, 05:25 PM
Wait wait...

So Cavs fans aren't allowed to point out some of LeBron's flaws? Because other fans of terrible franchises are envious and so now we gotta suck him off no matter what?

Every Cavs fan I know is forever grateful for LeBron and was at peace with him going to LA, but that doesn't mean he is somehow free from all criticism, nor does it mean a Cavs fan is ungrateful for pointing it out.

Lol, y'all can **** off. Cleveland has been the laughing stock of all cities and our sports teams have sucked year in and out except for some patches of time in the last 50 years. I hope we do get Zion and I don't give a **** if you (general) are butthurt about it.

Hawkeye15
01-25-2019, 05:31 PM
Wait wait...

So Cavs fans aren't allowed to point out some of LeBron's flaws? Because other fans of terrible franchises are envious and so now we gotta suck him off no matter what?

Every Cavs fan I know is forever grateful for LeBron and was at peace with him going to LA, but that doesn't mean he is somehow free from all criticism, nor does it mean a Cavs fan is ungrateful for pointing it out.

Lol, y'all can **** off. Cleveland has been the laughing stock of all cities and our sports teams have sucked year in and out except for some patches of time in the last 50 years. I hope we do get Zion and I don't give a **** if you (general) are butthurt about it.

why would you care what I think? Never asked you to. Nor would I.

But I am going to call out a fan pissing and moaning about a guy who gave them more success than they ever had and likely ever will. I criticized KG, our best player ever. So

Besides, get Zion, who cares. Chances are your team won't surround him with squat and he leaves. Same **** here in MN. Bad teams are bad teams. You were gifted a top 2 player ever to help correct the sinking ship for a decade. Many teams in our predicament aren't as fortunate...

Hawkeye15
01-25-2019, 05:33 PM
V-Rex, I am basically saying, "If Zion is going to a ****** team, let it be mine". The reality is, it won't matter where he goes if it's a perennial loser.

valade16
01-25-2019, 05:48 PM
Wait wait...

So Cavs fans aren't allowed to point out some of LeBron's flaws? Because other fans of terrible franchises are envious and so now we gotta suck him off no matter what?

Every Cavs fan I know is forever grateful for LeBron and was at peace with him going to LA, but that doesn't mean he is somehow free from all criticism, nor does it mean a Cavs fan is ungrateful for pointing it out.

Lol, y'all can **** off. Cleveland has been the laughing stock of all cities and our sports teams have sucked year in and out except for some patches of time in the last 50 years. I hope we do get Zion and I don't give a **** if you (general) are butthurt about it.

Which is why it's odd to rip on the one guy who brought you a championship in the last 50 years. Not saying you can't do it, but it is an odd look.

Hawkeye15
01-25-2019, 05:51 PM
Which is why it's odd to rip on the one guy who brought you a championship in the last 50 years. Not saying you can't do it, but it is an odd look.

Again, LeBron's "Decision" has to be why any Cleveland fan wouldn't worship him (as much as you can worship and athlete that is...). It took years after KG left for anyone here to admit he had faults. And KG aint no LeBron James.

Vee-Rex
01-25-2019, 05:58 PM
V-Rex, I am basically saying, "If Zion is going to a ****** team, let it be mine". The reality is, it won't matter where he goes if it's a perennial loser.

I mean, the thread title is: which teams need Zion, and quite frankly, the Cavs need him as much as any other team.

If you feel the Cavs organization doesn't DESERVE him then that's another story. Gilbert has mismanaged the team on many occasions and is rather notorious for it so I understand the perception of him.

But no way does pointing out us landing the GOAT 16 years ago means that we don't need Zion as much as other teams right now. Cleveland sports fans KNOW misery, just as much as any other group of sports fans. And quite frankly, we've still managed to support our teams through all of that incompetence.

As Chronz said, our teams either suck very badly or we're really good. Not too much mediocrity, and while other fans might relish the thought of that it does bring a lot of mocking and various other forms of demeaning our city and teams when we suck for a very long time. It's very hard to break that chain and stigma of sucking.

LeBron is my GOAT and I defend him all the time, but I won't just act like he is a perfect god that I must worship every morning I wake up.

Vee-Rex
01-25-2019, 05:59 PM
Which is why it's odd to rip on the one guy who brought you a championship in the last 50 years. Not saying you can't do it, but it is an odd look.

Is it ripping him to mention or acknowledge his flaws?

Hawkeye15
01-25-2019, 06:00 PM
I mean, the thread title is: which teams need Zion, and quite frankly, the Cavs need him as much as any other team.

If you feel the Cavs organization doesn't DESERVE him then that's another story. Gilbert has mismanaged the team on many occasions and is rather notorious for it so I understand the perception of him.

But no way does pointing out us landing the GOAT 16 years ago means that we don't need Zion as much as other teams right now. Cleveland sports fans KNOW misery, just as much as any other group of sports fans. And quite frankly, we've still managed to support our teams through all of that incompetence.

As Chronz said, our teams either suck very badly or we're really good. Not too much mediocrity, and while other fans might relish the thought of that it does bring a lot of mocking and various other forms of demeaning our city and teams when we suck for a very long time. It's very hard to break that chain and stigma of sucking.

LeBron is my GOAT and I defend him all the time, but I won't just act like he is a perfect god that I must worship every morning I wake up.

okk then, let me put it a MUCH easier way-I am jealous of the fortune your team has had. It is seemingly even as far as market, ownership, management, etc to my team. yet you already landed the unicorn. I want my unicorn V-Rex..

Vee-Rex
01-25-2019, 06:03 PM
worship an athlete? Nah.

All the **** he demanded means nothing. He is like almost every other top 10 player to come along-tough to deal with.

Do you trust Boozer after his dick move btw? Cmon.

Anyways, it seemed to come off as ungrateful to some degree. Complain all you want. In 10 years, you will long for the Lebron days you are *****ing about, trust me.

Speaking just for myself, I can endure a long time of having an inept team. I've done 20 with the Browns. It ain't nothing new.

LeBron will get his statue in Cleveland when it's all said and done and we will remember him fondly. Doesn't mean he was perfect.

Vee-Rex
01-25-2019, 06:05 PM
okk then, let me put it a MUCH easier way-I am jealous of the fortune your team has had. It is seemingly even as far as market, ownership, management, etc to my team. yet you already landed the unicorn. I want my unicorn V-Rex..

It'll happen one day. Almost did with the team you have now. Are you just a Wolves fan or are you a fan of other Minnesota teams? Vikings have been solid the last couple years.

Hawkeye15
01-25-2019, 06:05 PM
Speaking just for myself, I can endure a long time of having an inept team. I've done 20 with the Browns. It ain't nothing new.


yeah but you had a taste man!

Hawkeye15
01-25-2019, 06:06 PM
It'll happen one day. Almost did with the team you have now. Are you just a Wolves fan or are you a fan of other Minnesota teams? Vikings have been solid the last couple years.

Wolves
Texans
Hawkeyes
Wild

Vikes are cool, trying to get there, but meh.

Vee-Rex
01-25-2019, 06:27 PM
yeah but you had a taste man!

Yep, for sure. Cherish every moment of it and LeBron is the reason behind it.

I really loved the 2018 playoff run too. More than any other playoff run besides the championship year of course. It felt pretty magical - the dude gave it all that he had. Took the team on his back and everything. Perfect way to send his farewell to be honest.

valade16
01-25-2019, 06:29 PM
Is it ripping him to mention or acknowledge his flaws?

No, but at the same token you will never see me acknowledging Joe Montana or Bill Walton's flaws.

Vee-Rex
01-25-2019, 06:32 PM
Wolves
Texans
Hawkeyes
Wild

Vikes are cool, trying to get there, but meh.

Ahh cool. The Texans with Watson are looking like an AFC staple for many years to come.

But if basketball is your 1st love then you'll always be frustrated when the team isn't headed in the right direction. And it's not like the NFL where the variance is a lot bigger... if you're not at a certain level you stand absolutely no chance of competing for a championship. Whereas if you can just make the playoffs in the NFL you stand a chance.

It'll be worth it when it happens though. KG is my favorite all-time player and I was rooting for him in Minny, and that one year I swear you guys had what it took (I think it was 2003 or 2004) but just couldn't get it done against the Lakers in the WCF. That's a looooong time to go without really being a contender.

Vee-Rex
01-25-2019, 06:41 PM
No, but at the same token you will never see me acknowledging Joe Montana or Bill Walton's flaws.

That's because you're biased and we're not.

But seriously, neither of them are or have ever been as big of a topic as LeBron has been. With social media and technology advancements, he is probably the most picked apart all-time great in sports history. LeBron, unfortunately, is controversial. Doesn't deserve 95% of it (IMO) but he HAS brought quite a bit of it onto himself. I guarantee he would 100% have the backing of Cavs fans no matter what (look at his first stint in Cleveland - no one ever acknowledged any flaws) but once he left in the ugly manner that he did, that 'trust' and 'loyalty' was broken.

That's just how it works. Baker Mayfield for example could slap an old lady and not receive an ounce of criticism from Browns fans but if he ever had a moment of turning his back, not sure it could ever be fully repaired.

Edit: And that doesn't mean there's no appreciation or gratefulness at all. LeBron didn't have to come back to Cleveland. Could've stayed with Miami or went elsewhere and won championships. I'm happy he came back and he didn't owe us anything.

It's just hard to re-forge that special bond that fans have with THEIR one and only athletes, if the athletes leaves in the manner LeBron did. Kind of like a wife that sleeps with someone else and comes back and the marriage is good again... that special bond is just a little lighter and not quite as firm as it would have been otherwise.

Tg11
01-25-2019, 06:49 PM
Zion is going to Cleveland...I mean they have the worst record in the NBA right now

valade16
01-25-2019, 07:13 PM
That's because you're biased and we're not.

But seriously, neither of them are or have ever been as big of a topic as LeBron has been. With social media and technology advancements, he is probably the most picked apart all-time great in sports history. LeBron, unfortunately, is controversial. Doesn't deserve 95% of it (IMO) but he HAS brought quite a bit of it onto himself. I guarantee he would 100% have the backing of Cavs fans no matter what (look at his first stint in Cleveland - no one ever acknowledged any flaws) but once he left in the ugly manner that he did, that 'trust' and 'loyalty' was broken.

That's just how it works. Baker Mayfield for example could slap an old lady and not receive an ounce of criticism from Browns fans but if he ever had a moment of turning his back, not sure it could ever be fully repaired.

Edit: And that doesn't mean there's no appreciation or gratefulness at all. LeBron didn't have to come back to Cleveland. Could've stayed with Miami or went elsewhere and won championships. I'm happy he came back and he didn't owe us anything.

It's just hard to re-forge that special bond that fans have with THEIR one and only athletes, if the athletes leaves in the manner LeBron did. Kind of like a wife that sleeps with someone else and comes back and the marriage is good again... that special bond is just a little lighter and not quite as firm as it would have been otherwise.

I see your reasoning and I understand it, though ironically if it wasn't for LeBron abandoning Cleveland the first time, they wouldn't have had enough talent to win a title the second time. Had LeBron shown unwavering loyalty to Cleveland, he likely never wins a title and LeBron is just Cleveland's Karl Malone (albeit a far better one).

ewing
01-26-2019, 05:13 AM
No, but at the same token you will never see me acknowledging Joe Montana or Bill Walton's flaws.

Were they massive douchbags?


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Vee-Rex
01-26-2019, 11:17 AM
I see your reasoning and I understand it, though ironically if it wasn't for LeBron abandoning Cleveland the first time, they wouldn't have had enough talent to win a title the second time. Had LeBron shown unwavering loyalty to Cleveland, he likely never wins a title and LeBron is just Cleveland's Karl Malone (albeit a far better one).

That's very true. While the espn special made it extra painful, leaving turned out to be a good thing for both sides. And some luck in the lottery.

Scoots
01-26-2019, 11:31 AM
Were they massive douchbags?

Quite the opposite, they are both nice guys, but both had injury issues, physical limitations, and were competitive to a level that may have caused them some issues in life, playing, and with some teammates.

prodigy
01-26-2019, 12:00 PM
worship an athlete? Nah.

All the **** he demanded means nothing. He is like almost every other top 10 player to come along-tough to deal with.

Do you trust Boozer after his dick move btw? Cmon.

Anyways, it seemed to come off as ungrateful to some degree. Complain all you want. In 10 years, you will long for the Lebron days you are *****ing about, trust me.

Yes i do beleive Boozer. Lebron mentioned before he told Boozer to take hte money. lol.

What did i complain about? My life goes on without sports. Sure its nice when the cavs are good. But win or lose im always a fan and life moves on. Find happiness outside of sports and it makes losing sports teams easier to deal with.

prodigy
01-26-2019, 12:02 PM
And yet still managed to do better than every GM that Cleveland ever had before him. LeBron is not only your greatest player ever, he's your greatest GM ever lol

Well griffin stepped in and took some control back. Griffin best GM cavs ever had. Still not saying much. Best of the worse. congrats

Jamiecballer
01-26-2019, 01:03 PM
Goes to who needs him most. Worse them in league is most likely cavs. I know thats not how the draft works. but worse team has best odds. The Question is though which team needs him most. Well its the worse team clearly needs the best projected player.I understand your reasoning but I'm still gonna say Kings. The Kings just feel like they've been inept forever.

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Bostonjorge
01-26-2019, 06:39 PM
Knicks is the best spot for Zion

Tg11
01-26-2019, 08:37 PM
Knicks is the best spot for Zion

If anything Cleveland is the best spot because Cleveland needs a reason to hope again

ewing
01-26-2019, 08:58 PM
Knicks is the best spot for Zion

No doubt about it


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

prodigy
01-29-2019, 10:06 AM
If anything Cleveland is the best spot because Cleveland needs a reason to hope again

honestly i just want it to be a small market team. F the knicks.

Tg11
01-29-2019, 12:01 PM
Cleveland, Chicago and Phoenix among the small markets have the potential but only if they keep losing games

prodigy
01-29-2019, 03:14 PM
Cleveland, Chicago and Phoenix among the small markets have the potential but only if they keep losing games

Don't see that being a problem.

mike_noodles
01-29-2019, 04:23 PM
I have a hard time believing that the NBA doesnít get Williamson to NY. It makes so much sense right now, and the draft lottery will make it happen.

Tg11
01-29-2019, 07:50 PM
I have a hard time believing that the NBA doesnít get Williamson to NY. It makes so much sense right now, and the draft lottery will make it happen.

Plus him playing in New York...he at least will be able to sell out the Garden especially with all the stars comin out in New York just to watch Zion

prodigy
01-30-2019, 10:12 AM
Plus him playing in New York...he at least will be able to sell out the Garden especially with all the stars comin out in New York just to watch Zion

Zion will sellout anywhere he goes that won't be a problem lol.

Cavs won 2 straight WTF! lol

Tg11
01-30-2019, 10:30 AM
I wouldn't be surprised if New Orleans tries to make a trade for the #1 pick especially if Zion ends up being #1 and trading Zion for AD

Scoots
01-30-2019, 10:59 AM
The best landing spots for Zion are the teams with good owners, good coaches, and good winning cultures. Unfortunately for him that's not the way pro sports work. In the last 30 years only 2 players won a title having stayed on the team that drafted them #1 overall, Kyrie and Duncan. A team being saved by the #1 overall pick is a fantasy anymore.

Tg11
01-30-2019, 11:37 AM
Zion to the Suns could work

prodigy
01-30-2019, 02:12 PM
The best landing spots for Zion are the teams with good owners, good coaches, and good winning cultures. Unfortunately for him that's not the way pro sports work. In the last 30 years only 2 players won a title having stayed on the team that drafted them #1 overall, Kyrie and Duncan. A team being saved by the #1 overall pick is a fantasy anymore.

most of that only exists in basketball because of good players. I know that's very arguable common to make. you want a owner who will spend and coach who won't back down to the star players and actually coach them. But these days the player will complain and either get coach fired or force a trade lol. or leave as a FA.

Tg11
01-30-2019, 03:27 PM
If Zion is really good and he actually lives up to the hype...don't be surprised if they do an AD-Zion trade

Scoots
01-30-2019, 04:55 PM
No doubt about it

Doubt.

Scoots
01-30-2019, 05:00 PM
most of that only exists in basketball because of good players. I know that's very arguable common to make. you want a owner who will spend and coach who won't back down to the star players and actually coach them. But these days the player will complain and either get coach fired or force a trade lol. or leave as a FA.

Sure, that happens, but the reality is that great owners tend to have more winning seasons. It may be that they are seen as great owners because of the winning, but players, coaches, GMs, and agents all know who they want to work for/with and who they don't, and that make a big difference to how the team does at the end.

When the Warriors were sold they had no good players ... they had some potential, but absolutely nothing clearly special. Since then the new owners hired special people to run the team who then got the only two major FAs in the modern free agent history chose to join the team, a coach chose to join the Warriors instead of the Knicks because of the cultrure which starts with ownership.

You see it over and over again in sports ... ownership changes and the teams fortune improves or declines over time. The most important factor in a team's long term success is ownership.

valade16
01-30-2019, 05:13 PM
Sure, that happens, but the reality is that great owners tend to have more winning seasons. It may be that they are seen as great owners because of the winning, but players, coaches, GMs, and agents all know who they want to work for/with and who they don't, and that make a big difference to how the team does at the end.

When the Warriors were sold they had no good players ... they had some potential, but absolutely nothing clearly special. Since then the new owners hired special people to run the team who then got the only two major FAs in the modern free agent history chose to join the team, a coach chose to join the Warriors instead of the Knicks because of the cultrure which starts with ownership.

You see it over and over again in sports ... ownership changes and the teams fortune improves or declines over time. The most important factor in a team's long term success is ownership.

Another great Bay Area example is the 49ers. They were the model of winning under Eddie DeBartolo Jr. and then when he was forced to sell the team to Jed York it immediately became a near 20 year loser with only occasional flashes of competitiveness.

Owners have a lot more to do with the success of franchises over time than people think. I'd compare it to the players and coaches are like weather, changes rapidly and goes up and down frequently, whereas the owner is like climate, it's effects are seen slowly over time, but they have real consequences on weather.

Scoots
01-30-2019, 05:37 PM
Another great Bay Area example is the 49ers. They were the model of winning under Eddie DeBartolo Jr. and then when he was forced to sell the team to Jed York it immediately became a near 20 year loser with only occasional flashes of competitiveness.

Owners have a lot more to do with the success of franchises over time than people think. I'd compare it to the players and coaches are like weather, changes rapidly and goes up and down frequently, whereas the owner is like climate, it's effects are seen slowly over time, but they have real consequences on weather.

Yeah, York restricting the amount of water players could drink made the rounds about a year after he took over ... not many people are going to line up for that, meanwhile people are STILL talking about the little things Eddie did to make the players and their families feel special. The Warriors owners are doing the same things, like inviting the players to bring family on road trips, and having free meals at nice restaurants every night they are on the road, to having on staff chefs at the practice facilities to feed the players and their friends whenever they are around, and all the little things. They are treated like extremely valued members of the company and it matters not just to recruiting but to their performance too.

prodigy
01-31-2019, 09:45 AM
It all comes back to players though. Great players mean winning, winning means everyone looks good. Sure a coach fitting schemes to the players is key also. But all of it means nothing without really good players.

Anywhere Zion goes they will win. I don't buy they need to go to an organization like the Spurs just to have success. You just don't want a Cheap owner. Avoid that and everything will be fine.

prodigy
01-31-2019, 09:47 AM
Owners have a lot more to do with the success of franchises over time than people think. I'd compare it to the players and coaches are like weather, changes rapidly and goes up and down frequently, whereas the owner is like climate, it's effects are seen slowly over time, but they have real consequences on weather.

Everything is important, owner, GM, coach etc... But Players are the most important.

Scoots
01-31-2019, 01:03 PM
Everything is important, owner, GM, coach etc... But Players are the most important.

I disagree. Potentially great players who land in the wrong spot fail to achieve their potential more often. So great situations make great players just as much or more than great players make great situations. If we stick with the 49ers model, Joe Montana couldn't maintain the starting job in college and was considered over-drafted in the 3rd round, but ownership gave the team to Bill Walsh and gave Walsh the power to build the team his way and to build around Montana. Bill Walsh traded up to draft Jerry Rice who was too slow and too small from a small school in the wrong conference. Without Eddie supporting Walsh's spending the 49ers are not allowed to trade for Steve Young (and his record setting contract) who was considered a bust. Without the system Walsh put in place and without the lavish support of Eddie D Rice doesn't likely become the greatest football player in history.

Yes great players are critical to winning, but the vast majority of the time great players have great coaches and GMs and owners behind them to protect and nurture them to the top.

mike_noodles
01-31-2019, 01:05 PM
Yeah, York restricting the amount of water players could drink made the rounds about a year after he took over ... not many people are going to line up for that, meanwhile people are STILL talking about the little things Eddie did to make the players and their families feel special. The Warriors owners are doing the same things, like inviting the players to bring family on road trips, and having free meals at nice restaurants every night they are on the road, to having on staff chefs at the practice facilities to feed the players and their friends whenever they are around, and all the little things. They are treated like extremely valued members of the company and it matters not just to recruiting but to their performance too.

Isn't it crazy the things some franchises do? Tracy McGrady admitted to eating mostly fast food when he was with the Raptors, cause he didn't know any better or have anyone. And all I could think was, how could the team not have a specialist or two that helps the players with this type of stuff, especially the younger players?

valade16
01-31-2019, 01:05 PM
I disagree. Potentially great players who land in the wrong spot fail to achieve their potential more often. So great situations make great players just as much or more than great players make great situations. If we stick with the 49ers model, Joe Montana couldn't maintain the starting job in college and was considered over-drafted in the 3rd round, but ownership gave the team to Bill Walsh and gave Walsh the power to build the team his way and to build around Montana. Bill Walsh traded up to draft Jerry Rice who was too slow and too small from a small school in the wrong conference. Without Eddie supporting Walsh's spending the 49ers are not allowed to trade for Steve Young (and his record setting contract) who was considered a bust. Without the system Walsh put in place and without the lavish support of Eddie D Rice doesn't likely become the greatest football player in history.

Yes great players are critical to winning, but the vast majority of the time great players have great coaches and GMs and owners behind them to protect and nurture them to the top.

Even in the NBA, if players were most important then explain how OKC had the best players and have zero rings to show for it. How has NO had one of the top 5 players for the past 5 years and has nothing to show for it? The best players won't get you much if the rest of the organization sucks.

Tg11
01-31-2019, 01:09 PM
It all depends on which team in the lottery wins but also been talk mostly on ESPN and on such shows like First Take or Undisputed for example that Zion may even fall in the Draft to #2 or #3 even

prodigy
01-31-2019, 01:50 PM
I disagree. Potentially great players who land in the wrong spot fail to achieve their potential more often. So great situations make great players just as much or more than great players make great situations. If we stick with the 49ers model, Joe Montana couldn't maintain the starting job in college and was considered over-drafted in the 3rd round, but ownership gave the team to Bill Walsh and gave Walsh the power to build the team his way and to build around Montana. Bill Walsh traded up to draft Jerry Rice who was too slow and too small from a small school in the wrong conference. Without Eddie supporting Walsh's spending the 49ers are not allowed to trade for Steve Young (and his record setting contract) who was considered a bust. Without the system Walsh put in place and without the lavish support of Eddie D Rice doesn't likely become the greatest football player in history.

Yes great players are critical to winning, but the vast majority of the time great players have great coaches and GMs and owners behind them to protect and nurture them to the top.

I understand what you are saying. We are on the same page i just value the player alittle higher. I'll take a great player and decent coach over great coach and a decent player.

Vee-Rex
01-31-2019, 01:51 PM
Even in the NBA, if players were most important then explain how OKC had the best players and have zero rings to show for it. How has NO had one of the top 5 players for the past 5 years and has nothing to show for it? The best players won't get you much if the rest of the organization sucks.

Unprecedented talent.

OKC could have won in 2016 had GS not been in the way. And maybe even in 2012 if not for the Heat, who had an unprecedented collection of stars at the time. Even if you go back through the years, besides the 2011 championship, all the winning teams were loaded with talent.

Can't really talk about NO because nowadays, because if you don't have AT LEAST 2 stars you really don't stand much of a chance. They had DMC for a moment but I'd argue the redundancy of two bigs in today's game is the reason it didn't go far (notwithstanding his injury). Who knows, maybe NO reaches the conference finals if they didn't face GS in the 2nd round last year.

I get that ownership plays a heavy part in talent acquisition but GS is just the unprecedented wrinkle that foils everything at this point. Even if you do everything right you can still fail just because you're suiting up against an Olympic team. I mean, JFC... Steph, KD, Klay, Draymond, and Cousins? How much of a joke has this become?

prodigy
01-31-2019, 01:52 PM
It all depends on which team in the lottery wins but also been talk mostly on ESPN and on such shows like First Take or Undisputed for example that Zion may even fall in the Draft to #2 or #3 even

no. he will be #1. whoever gets #1 will declare that 1 second after winning the lottery.

prodigy
01-31-2019, 01:55 PM
Unprecedented talent.

OKC could have won in 2016 had GS not been in the way. And maybe even in 2012 if not for the Heat, who had an unprecedented collection of stars at the time. Even if you go back through the years, besides the 2011 championship, all the winning teams were loaded with talent.

Or the Cavs could have 3 or 4 titles if it wasn't for cupcake Durant.

valade16
01-31-2019, 02:03 PM
Unprecedented talent.

OKC could have won in 2016 had GS not been in the way. And maybe even in 2012 if not for the Heat, who had an unprecedented collection of stars at the time. Even if you go back through the years, besides the 2011 championship, all the winning teams were loaded with talent.

Can't really talk about NO because nowadays, because if you don't have AT LEAST 2 stars you really don't stand much of a chance. They had DMC for a moment but I'd argue the redundancy of two bigs in today's game is the reason it didn't go far (notwithstanding his injury). Who knows, maybe NO reaches the conference finals if they didn't face GS in the 2nd round last year.

I get that ownership plays a heavy part in talent acquisition but GS is just the unprecedented wrinkle that foils everything at this point. Even if you do everything right you can still fail just because you're suiting up against an Olympic team. I mean, JFC... Steph, KD, Klay, Draymond, and Cousins? How much of a joke has this become?

But OKC's problems go back farther than just 2016. Them trading Harden is what killed their chances. Had they not done that, I doubt Durant walks, especially if Westy/Harden/KD are going to and winning the Finals year after year.

Consider that OKC had 3 MVPs on their roster at the same time all under the age of 25 and they screwed it up. Great players are awesome to have, but the difference between the Thunder and the Warriors right now is the owner and GM, not the talent they had at one point. KD/Westy/Harden is every bit as good as Steph/Klay/Dray. The good organization turned their trio into champions, and the other one didn't.

Vee-Rex
01-31-2019, 02:40 PM
But OKC's problems go back farther than just 2016. Them trading Harden is what killed their chances. Had they not done that, I doubt Durant walks, especially if Westy/Harden/KD are going to and winning the Finals year after year.

Consider that OKC had 3 MVPs on their roster at the same time all under the age of 25 and they screwed it up. Great players are awesome to have, but the difference between the Thunder and the Warriors right now is the owner and GM, not the talent they had at one point. KD/Westy/Harden is every bit as good as Steph/Klay/Dray. The good organization turned their trio into champions, and the other one didn't.

The Harden trade is definitely one of the worst ever. I'm not trying to excuse it but losing tends to encourage big changes. The 2012 Thunder ran into a much more experienced Heat team, got smoked in 5, and decided a change needed to be made to dodge the contract situation with Harden. It was a terrible move but it stemmed from an unwillingness to spend. I guarantee if they knew the NBA would become the Olympic Basketball Association then they'd have approached it differently.

How many times have the Warriors came close to making bad moves? How much different would things be if, hypothetically speaking (not *****ing, just thinking theoretically) the 2015 Cavs were healthy and whooped the Warriors. Do they get rid of Klay? Does the 73 win season still happen the next year? Do they beat the Thunder in the 2016 WCF? Does Durant still run to GS?

One simple alteration could've drastically changed history, both for the Warriors franchise and NBA history.

While the Warriors front office has done very well, they still have been fortuitous. As with all championship winning teams. Because you can do everything remarkably well and still lose, and end up making detrimental changes (or stay the same like the CP3/Blake Clippers and we saw how that turned out).

At the end of the day, ownership does matter big time but I lean a little more towards the players, coaches, and fortune.

valade16
01-31-2019, 02:52 PM
The Harden trade is definitely one of the worst ever. I'm not trying to excuse it but losing tends to encourage big changes. The 2012 Thunder ran into a much more experienced Heat team, got smoked in 5, and decided a change needed to be made to dodge the contract situation with Harden. It was a terrible move but it stemmed from an unwillingness to spend. I guarantee if they knew the NBA would become the Olympic Basketball Association then they'd have approached it differently.

How many times have the Warriors came close to making bad moves? How much different would things be if, hypothetically speaking (not *****ing, just thinking theoretically) the 2015 Cavs were healthy and whooped the Warriors. Do they get rid of Klay? Does the 73 win season still happen the next year? Do they beat the Thunder in the 2016 WCF? Does Durant still run to GS?

One simple alteration could've drastically changed history, both for the Warriors franchise and NBA history.

While the Warriors front office has done very well, they still have been fortuitous. As with all championship winning teams. Because you can do everything remarkably well and still lose, and end up making detrimental changes (or stay the same like the CP3/Blake Clippers and we saw how that turned out).

At the end of the day, ownership does matter big time but I lean a little more towards the players, coaches, and fortune.

You're right in that the one big component I forgot was luck. My Blazers are a perfect example of that.

Scoots
01-31-2019, 09:21 PM
Even in the NBA, if players were most important then explain how OKC had the best players and have zero rings to show for it. How has NO had one of the top 5 players for the past 5 years and has nothing to show for it? The best players won't get you much if the rest of the organization sucks.

NO's ownership saved money by having the football team training staff work on the NBA team too, and I suspect their higher than normal injury rate may have been a result of that to some extent. The little things REALLY matter when you add them all up.

zookman65
02-01-2019, 10:37 AM
NO's ownership saved money by having the football team training staff work on the NBA team too, and I suspect their higher than normal injury rate may have been a result of that to some extent. The little things REALLY matter when you add them all up.

I agree with Scoots and Valade16 that organization and all that entails does matter! Zion to a bad organization gets them nothing. Plus we are acting like Zion is the full package - he has huge offensive gaps. Great body and strong as hell but I am not sold that he will be a 30 point type of guy in NBA.

ewing
02-01-2019, 10:53 AM
I agree with Scoots and Valade16 that organization and all that entails does matter! Zion to a bad organization gets them nothing. Plus we are acting like Zion is the full package - he has huge offensive gaps. Great body and strong as hell but I am not sold that he will be a 30 point type of guy in NBA.

He is 19 and already to strong or too fast and skilled to be guarded by anyone one on one. He might not score 30 but he will a damn good

Hawkeye15
02-01-2019, 11:01 AM
I have watched Zion 3 times now, he reminds me of Nique, straight up.

valade16
02-01-2019, 12:56 PM
I have watched Zion 3 times now, he reminds me of Nique, straight up.

That's a pretty good comparison IMO

Scoots
02-01-2019, 04:44 PM
I have watched Zion 3 times now, he reminds me of Nique, straight up.

I can see it, but I think he's a better passer, and defender.

Hawkeye15
02-01-2019, 05:09 PM
I can see it, but I think he's a better passer, and defender.

well I have slid over to the "he will be a great player" side, but I can't give him a Barkley comparison just yet. Sorry. Fkin prove it against the big boys first. He will still be more explosive than 95% of the NBA, but we will see how smart he is (or not) once he gets in the league.

Rivera
02-02-2019, 01:00 PM
well I have slid over to the "he will be a great player" side, but I can't give him a Barkley comparison just yet. Sorry. Fkin prove it against the big boys first. He will still be more explosive than 95% of the NBA, but we will see how smart he is (or not) once he gets in the league.

yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

:laugh:

thats BIG coming from you. You might have well just said hes a future HOFer with that kind of praise for a college kid :laugh2:

I love the Nique comparison though

ewing
02-02-2019, 02:54 PM
He just hit the floor 3 times in one possession up 25 in the 2nd half against St Johnís


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Scoots
02-02-2019, 06:26 PM
well I have slid over to the "he will be a great player" side, but I can't give him a Barkley comparison just yet. Sorry. Fkin prove it against the big boys first. He will still be more explosive than 95% of the NBA, but we will see how smart he is (or not) once he gets in the league.

No question. You've got to actually prove it.

FlashBolt
02-02-2019, 06:50 PM
Zion reminds me of Blake. Blake coming out of college was an explosive dunker and too big for most players to guard. He wasn't a great defender, playmaker, or shooter. I think that will be the worst Zion could be as a player. When the guy is just too physically gifted, it's a guaranteed 20/10 for him at that size. Just have to see how that translates because his trajectory as a player will ultimately depend on if he can improve the other areas of his game. Does anyone here think Zion is more of a freakish player than Giannis? I don't see it.

Tg11
02-02-2019, 09:42 PM
Zion is like Giannis but bigger

ewing
02-02-2019, 10:53 PM
The NBA needs him. I hope he exceeds the hype


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Tg11
02-03-2019, 12:50 AM
The NBA needs him. I hope he exceeds the hype


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Me too because if that happens it will make the league even more exciting as a whole

Hawkeye15
02-03-2019, 01:22 AM
The NBA needs him. I hope he exceeds the hype


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Ditto. I love great players

Heediot
02-03-2019, 10:32 AM
Zion reminds me of Blake. Blake coming out of college was an explosive dunker and too big for most players to guard. He wasn't a great defender, playmaker, or shooter. I think that will be the worst Zion could be as a player. When the guy is just too physically gifted, it's a guaranteed 20/10 for him at that size. Just have to see how that translates because his trajectory as a player will ultimately depend on if he can improve the other areas of his game. Does anyone here think Zion is more of a freakish player than Giannis? I don't see it.

I think he has more potential offensively, and might be able to set up defenders better vs. Giannis. Giannis is another animal with his length and defense though.

Tg11
02-03-2019, 11:29 AM
Zion is Blake or Giannis in the sense of explosiveness but does he have a shot? Zion in some ways reminds me a lot like Charlotte/New York legend Larry Johnson

Raps08-09 Champ
02-03-2019, 05:09 PM
I think I said I wanted him in New York earlier but after they traded Kristaps, I change my answer to Phoenix.

Tg11
02-03-2019, 07:55 PM
I think I said I wanted him in New York earlier but after they traded Kristaps, I change my answer to Phoenix.

If Zion goes to Phoenix with him, Booker, Ayton and Warren they definitely would look good

ewing
02-03-2019, 09:13 PM
I think I said I wanted him in New York earlier but after they traded Kristaps, I change my answer to Phoenix.

Zoo must go to NY


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Hawkeye15
02-04-2019, 11:23 AM
Zoo must go to NY


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oh quiet down

JAZZNC
02-04-2019, 11:41 AM
Is it sad that I hate the fact that the Jazz will never be bad enough to have the chance to draft a player like this? Much less get the chance 5 times in a 10yr period like the Cavs/Sixers?

I absolutely hate it when people say that market doesn't matter, its ownership/management/coaching. Well the Jazz have that and still nobody wants to be there even though all we do is win. ****, imagine what we would do with real talent like a LeBron, Durant, Curry, Harden!?!? But when we have had the chance a couple times to draft high we took William's instead of CP3 and ****ing Kanter. I'll stop *****ing now.

Scoots
02-04-2019, 03:23 PM
Is it sad that I hate the fact that the Jazz will never be bad enough to have the chance to draft a player like this? Much less get the chance 5 times in a 10yr period like the Cavs/Sixers?

I absolutely hate it when people say that market doesn't matter, its ownership/management/coaching. Well the Jazz have that and still nobody wants to be there even though all we do is win. ****, imagine what we would do with real talent like a LeBron, Durant, Curry, Harden!?!? But when we have had the chance a couple times to draft high we took William's instead of CP3 and ****ing Kanter. I'll stop *****ing now.

Look at it the other way, if you had a bad owner/coach then you'd be drafting high and wasting the talent. The Warriors had several very high picks and wasted all of them.

Basically, in order to get a top pick with good owner/coach it will take a confluence of events like what happened for the Spurs ... DRob got hurt, they tanked hard, got Duncan, and won for 20 years. The Sixers took an extreme approach with a GM who put his *** on the line ... the fact that he got fired probably means that never happens again.

Raps08-09 Champ
02-04-2019, 06:38 PM
Once Davis is traded, Suns need to flip Josh Jackson for Lonzo already.

Lonzo, Booker, Zion, Ayton. :drool:

FlashBolt
02-04-2019, 06:40 PM
Flip Josh Jackson for Lonzo already. Lonzo, Booker, Zion, Ayton. :drool:

And all the new Suns fans will be coming out of nowhere saying they were huge fans of Barkley and that Nash absolutely deserved MVP :D

Tg11
02-06-2019, 04:07 PM
Zion to the Pelicans via trade with the Knicks; probably the smartest thing to do especially if Zion is this special generational talent he is being hyped up to be

valade16
02-06-2019, 04:49 PM
Zion to the Pelicans via trade with the Knicks; probably the smartest thing to do especially if Zion is this special generational talent he is being hyped up to be

Would the Knicks be able to do that after they sign Free Agents? If they got say KD/Kyrie in FA and then traded Zion for AD that would be nuts

Kyrie - KD - AD

Tg11
02-06-2019, 05:18 PM
Would the Knicks be able to do that after they sign Free Agents? If they got say KD/Kyrie in FA and then traded Zion for AD that would be nuts

Kyrie - KD - AD

Yeah it actually would be but Dolan would find some way to ******* it up