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mightybosstone
01-11-2019, 01:43 PM
We've got a really interesting MVP race going on this season, and I constantly want to discuss big games and stats I see regarding the candidates, but I don't currently have any place to put them. Hence, I think we need a thread for stuff like this. Can a mod help me sticky this please whenever you guys get a chance?

Now that we're getting close to that halfway point in the season (which blows my mind that we're already 40+ games in), the race is really starting to take shape. Injuries have dealt some big blows to some obvious contenders—namely Lebron and Curry—while we've had some monster performances and moments in recent weeks that have brought these conversations more to the forefront. We're even seeing some analysts pick their midseason MVPs already and making predictions.

So if you see an article of interest worth reading, a stat worth sharing or just want to talk about a big moment from a player in this conversation, put that stuff here. I'll start us off with an obvious question: Roughly halfway through the season, who are your top 5 MVP candidates (in order), and why?

Rivera
01-11-2019, 01:52 PM
As of Today 1.11.19 My top 5 is

1. Giannis
2. Harden
3. Kawhi
4. Jokic
5. Bron

Bron slipping a bit but can easily get back to top status once he gets back from injury

Giannis lead is really slipping, Harden may have caught him in some people eyes, hes right there for me about to overtake Giannis

Kawhi has had a really really good year. 27 ppg being efficient and playing top level D on a # 1 team. Has everything you want from an MVP Candidate

Got to give Jokic his props. #1 team in the west, and hes the anchor of it. dude has been great

mightybosstone
01-11-2019, 03:03 PM
As of Today 1.11.19 My top 5 is

1. Giannis
2. Harden
3. Kawhi
4. Jokic
5. Bron

Bron slipping a bit but can easily get back to top status once he gets back from injury

Giannis lead is really slipping, Harden may have caught him in some people eyes, hes right there for me about to overtake Giannis

Kawhi has had a really really good year. 27 ppg being efficient and playing top level D on a # 1 team. Has everything you want from an MVP Candidate

Got to give Jokic his props. #1 team in the west, and hes the anchor of it. dude has been great

I'm obviously a little biased, so take everything I say with some grain of salt, but my top 5 is probably:
1. James Harden
2. Giannis
3. Paul George
4. Nikola Jokic
5. Kawhi Leonard

Whatever order you have them in, Harden and Giannis seem to be the consensus top two right now. If this thread doesn't die, I'll post some stats, reasoning and justification for Harden at the top. Outside of them, though, it's a really crowded race, and there's probably 7-8 guys who still squarely in the conversation.

I gave George and Jokic credit here for being the best players on teams that have overachieved and for upping their games this season. George, especially, has impressed me as I didn't think he had this extra gear. I even remember telling tredigs a few months ago that there was zero chance he could be MVP because he wasn't capable of the production on the same team as Westbrook. So far, I've been wrong.

Kawhi was a tough pick, but I have a hard time putting him, Curry or Lebron any higher than this because they've missed a good chunk of the first half of the season. They've pretty much all missed a quarter of their team's games so far, but I'm giving Leonard the edge since he's returned to form and Toronto has exceeded expectations through the first half. But by season's end, hopefully all three of them will have played enough games to still be in the conversation.

You could make strong cases for Embiid, Durant and Davis in the top 5 as well.

Tg11
01-11-2019, 05:01 PM
For me my top 5 for MVP race would be:

Harden
Giannis
Kawhi
Westbrook
Paul George (PG13)

Even though Anthony Davis is also right there statistically as well

mightybosstone
01-12-2019, 08:34 AM
For me my top 5 for MVP race would be:

Harden
Giannis
Kawhi
Westbrook
Paul George (PG13)

Even though Anthony Davis is also right there statistically as well

That's interesting to see Westbrook at No. 4. He's not somebody I would have put in the conversation. What makes you rank him so highly when he's having such a down year statistically?

mightybosstone
01-12-2019, 08:49 AM
I promise I didn't create this thread solely to post James Harden statlines, but holy ****. Last night, he was just on fire, and he made it look so effortless. It was against the Cavs, so take it with a grain of salt, but they threw every defender at him and it didn't matter. He killed everyone.

Here are the numbers: 43 points, 12 assists, 10 rebounds, 2 steals, 2 blocks, 4 TOs on 12-24 FG, 8-16 on 3s and 11-11 from the FT line

The craziest thing: he did it under 30 minutes! According to Tim McMahon, it was the first time in NBA history a player had a 40-point triple double in less than 30 minutes of game time, as he didn't even step on the floor in the 4th quarter. Harden also extended his record of consecutive games with at least five 3-pointers made to 12, which is now five more than the second longest streak (Curry earlier this season).

cmellofan15
01-12-2019, 09:40 AM
1. Giannis
2. Harden (voter fatigue)
3. Jokic (DEN bias; see below)
4. Kawhi
5. Bron

I'm absolutely biased towards Jokic. but the fact that the Raptors are something like 7-1 without Kawhi puts Jokic in that 3 spot for me.

mightybosstone
01-12-2019, 09:53 AM
1. Giannis
2. Harden (voter fatigue)
3. Jokic (DEN bias; see below)
4. Kawhi
5. Bron

I'm absolutely biased towards Jokic. but the fact that the Raptors are something like 7-1 without Kawhi puts Jokic in that 3 spot for me.

If Denver finishes with a top 2-3 seed in the West and Jokic is healthy and putting up these kinds of numbers all season long, I don't see how the guy doesn't finish in the top 5. If they somehow do end up getting the top seed, he's got a legitimate shot to win the damn thing.

Statistically, though, I do think the numbers are a bit behind what Harden and Giannis are doing. So voters would really have to buy into that narrative of Jokic leading the Nuggets to the top seed in the stacked conference. It's also possible Harden and Giannis could fall off a bit statistically, leaving a window for someone like Jokic to step up.

Random unrelated question, but as a Denver fan, why do you think the Nuggets struggle so much against Houston? They're 0-9 against the Rockets since Jokic came on board, and I feel like I'm always impressed by them as a team when they play against any team in the league BUT Houston. But against the Rockets, they seem to really struggle, and I can't put my finger on why.

kdspurman
02-12-2019, 12:37 PM
Has PG moved into the lead ?

tredigs
02-12-2019, 01:00 PM
1A. PG (his 2 way dominance and on/off splits of +19 are out of control right now)
1B. Giannis (ditto the previous to a lesser extent, but with the top player/top team going for him)
3. Harden (BRILLIANT ISO play offensively, but weak on/off splits and the team is not HCA. Also a bit of padding)
4. Jokic (efficient 20/11/8 and elite advanced #'s from a center who leads the #2 team in West, despite injuries)
5. Curry (outside of the MVP narrative, but another brilliant 29/5/5 season while flirting with 50/45/90)

tredigs
02-12-2019, 01:27 PM
Seeing The Undefeated just ran a poll on it for consensus top 3 (PG/Harden/Giannis) and the results are about in line with what I was leaning.

1095342452364345350

As of right now after ~1k votes: 38% Paul George - 35% Giannis - 28% Harden

naps
02-13-2019, 05:35 AM
Paul George has been ridiculous. The fact that he is also an elite candidate for DPOY should make his MVP case better anyone by a landslide.

tredigs
02-13-2019, 11:36 PM
More MVP **** in the huge comeback road-win for Giannis. Ultra efficient 33/19/11 with just 2 turnovers in the last game going into the break. Two way tie for first between him and PG imo.

TheDish87
02-14-2019, 01:36 PM
Joel
Embiid
Trust
The
Process

tredigs
02-14-2019, 01:39 PM
Paul George has been ridiculous. The fact that he is also an elite candidate for DPOY should make his MVP case better anyone by a landslide.

Even with the 2-way dominance angle Giannis it right there or ahead of him.

Rivera
02-14-2019, 02:06 PM
i love PG im just not sure how hes really in the conversation. its a great story and i understand the media needs to push narratives, and stories to keep peoples interest and to keep guessing

but stats wise

hes a solid 3rd place behind Giannis and Harden

i understand the love, but im not sure why some have him ahead of Giannis or Harden

Htownballa1622
02-14-2019, 11:50 PM
Lol. A few hot weeks of pg doesn't put him ahead of garden or Giannis.

Wrigheyes4MVP
02-15-2019, 12:11 PM
I'm torn on Harden vs Giannis

kdspurman
02-15-2019, 12:26 PM
Lol. A few hot weeks of pg doesn't put him ahead of garden or Giannis.

It's been more than a few weeks, it might have just been overshadowed before because Harden was putting up the #'s he was & OKC started out a bit slow.

tredigs
02-15-2019, 02:53 PM
Lol. A few hot weeks of pg doesn't put him ahead of garden or Giannis.

He's been great all year. I mentioned him in the MVP convo for his 2 way dominance in mid December here.

Htownballa1622
02-15-2019, 03:29 PM
Again, Pg has been great. By far his best season but let's not just pretend the other 2 have fallen off. George hasn't gone past any of the top 2. He's crept into the convo but he's in 3rd. Sorry.

Chronz
02-17-2019, 10:47 PM
Again, Pg has been great. By far his best season but let's not just pretend the other 2 have fallen off. George hasn't gone past any of the top 2. He's crept into the convo but he's in 3rd. Sorry.
They don't need to fall off, he's been in front of harden for sure

Htownballa1622
02-18-2019, 11:07 AM
They don't need to fall off, he's been in front of harden for sure

Sure hasn't. https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=James+Harden&player_id1_select=James+Harden&y1=2019&player_id1=hardeja01&idx=players&player_id2_hint=Paul+George&player_id2_select=Paul+George&y2=2019&player_id2=georgpa01&idx=players#stats-advanced::none

IKnowHoops
02-19-2019, 10:49 AM
Yeah, there is just no way PG is above Harden. Harden has been video game good for a while

Scoots
02-19-2019, 12:08 PM
Funny hearing Curry and Coach Bud talking about what's going to happen to Harden's game come the playoffs, and Harden wanting to play in more of a pace and space offense. It's got to be exhausting having to keep that up every game to give your team any chance. I don't think LeBron can do it anymore for weeks on end like he used to be able to do.

Bostonjorge
02-19-2019, 12:31 PM
PG has been clutch this year as well. The game winner against the Nets and especially the game winner against the Sixers.

Chronz
02-19-2019, 02:46 PM
Sure hasn't. https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=James+Harden&player_id1_select=James+Harden&y1=2019&player_id1=hardeja01&idx=players&player_id2_hint=Paul+George&player_id2_select=Paul+George&y2=2019&player_id2=georgpa01&idx=players#stats-advanced::none
U prolly right. Hes 2nd

MygirlhatesCod
02-20-2019, 10:46 AM
a lot has to do with the standings. if the bucks keep the best record it would be difficult to vote against Giannis even with how well Harden's stats look.

Htownballa1622
02-21-2019, 10:56 AM
Skip Bayless calling that Paul George is leading the way to mvp just validates my opinion that George is NOT in fact the mvp.

FlashBolt
02-22-2019, 06:01 PM
so we gonna act like PG isn't a top three perimeter defender and a DPOY candidate or ignore that because Harden takes more shots and has better scoring averages? lmao..

Heediot
02-22-2019, 06:19 PM
harden is bitter and over-compensating to get another mvp. he probably feels like he should have more then 1. he's definitely right there for the mvp though. personally i think he's more inherently selfish then he's letting on about chasing numbers. what do you expect from a guy that makes a career of of deceiving people on the court, that might reflect itself in ways off the court too.

Htownballa1622
02-22-2019, 06:19 PM
so we gonna act like PG isn't a top three perimeter defender and a DPOY candidate or ignore that because Harden takes more shots and has better scoring averages? lmao..

No, we're going to understand that superior offense is weighted more than defense. Not that difficult.

kdspurman
02-22-2019, 06:52 PM
No, we're going to understand that superior offense is weighted more than defense. Not that difficult.

Could just depend on where the teams finish at this point, assuming all 3 guys maintain their level of play

Bostonjorge
02-23-2019, 11:19 AM
PG with another game winner against the Jazz.
#2 in scoring while taking no plays off on defense. He keeps hitting game winners then PG is taking home the MVP.

tredigs
02-24-2019, 03:25 AM
Hahah. Harden just lost MVP. Warriors own that dude in every way imaginable. Amazing.

Htownballa1622
02-24-2019, 03:38 AM
Hahah. Harden just lost MVP. Warriors own that dude in every way imaginable. Amazing.

Lol. Nice try at that spin.

tredigs
02-24-2019, 04:02 AM
Lol. Nice try at that spin.

Lmfao. Want to try your own spin? Harden was exposed tonight, again. He's no MVP. And everybody ****ing knows this. Not sure why we play this game every year.

Rockets looked amazing tonight free of their shackles.

More-Than-Most
02-24-2019, 04:16 AM
Lmfao. Want to try your own spin? Harden was exposed tonight, again. He's no MVP. And everybody ****ing knows this. Not sure why we play this game every year.

Rockets looked amazing tonight free of their shackles.

I guess by this dumb logic AD isnt a top 50 player in basketball and Embiid is the MVP????????? I mean if 1 game says all that right?

Saddletramp
02-24-2019, 04:50 AM
I guess by this dumb logic AD isnt a top 50 player in basketball and Embiid is the MVP????????? I mean if 1 game says all that right?

The Warriors would apparently lose to a Harden-less Rockets in the playoffs, according to Tre-logic. Blow him off, he’s just pissed his super team full of either parking lot criers or free agent non-competitive wankers don’t smoke every team every night. They have no heart.

More-Than-Most
02-24-2019, 05:05 AM
The Warriors would apparently lose to a Harden-less Rockets in the playoffs, according to Tre-logic. Blow him off, he’s just pissed his super team full of either parking lot criers or free agent non-competitive wankers don’t smoke every team every night. They have no heart.

hell i hope his logic is right because I have been ******** on AD for years and saying embiid is the mvp lol.. There are 4 guys currently in the top 10 that would be bad teams if they were injured for the year and that is Lebron/Harden
Embiid
Giannias

Heediot
02-24-2019, 09:00 AM
hell i hope his logic is right because I have been ******** on AD for years and saying embiid is the mvp lol.. There are 4 guys currently in the top 10 that would be bad teams if they were injured for the year and that is Lebron/Harden
Embiid
Giannias

If healthy, Cp3 can run a team and they might be able to make the playoffs. He's just too damn smart and good decision maker. Knows how to elevate his mates in a different way vs. Harden. Its arguable how much he has declined though, but the man is a beast in the halfcourt, reasons why his game translates well into the playoffs,

tredigs
02-24-2019, 11:28 AM
Lmfao at MTM trying to turn this into a Embiid MVP campaign. No, dude, that team is just constructed terribly. They're a 2nd round exit with or without Embiid.

tredigs
02-24-2019, 06:16 PM
Congrats to Giannis on his MVP. Very well earned.

Tg11
02-25-2019, 10:42 AM
Paul George is my darkhorse but I think Harden is winning it regardless

Htownballa1622
02-26-2019, 10:13 AM
Lmfao. Want to try your own spin? Harden was exposed tonight, again. He's no MVP. And everybody ****ing knows this. Not sure why we play this game every year.

Rockets looked amazing tonight free of their shackles.

Harden exposed? He was out with injury.

He's no mvp? Last year and history will prove otherwise.

Everyone knows this? No, just GSW fans and haters alike.

You've got to be one of those anonymous egg twitter people that gets on every ESPN or NBA twitter comment about Harden saying things like..."hArDeN sUcKs! sTePh BeTtEr!"

Wrigheyes4MVP
02-26-2019, 11:21 AM
No, we're going to understand that superior offense is weighted more than defense. Not that difficult.

You're not entirely wrong, but we all know how important it is in the playoffs to play good defense. You're not gonna win a championship playing one way. Defense will matter in the end.

Htownballa1622
02-26-2019, 11:34 AM
You're not entirely wrong, but we all know how important it is in the playoffs to play good defense. You're not gonna win a championship playing one way. Defense will matter in the end.

Agreed. I'm talking about a regular season mvp award where offensive creation is more valuable than one on one defense.

tredigs
02-26-2019, 05:08 PM
2018-19 NBA MVP Odds: Giannis Overtakes Harden as Heavy Favorite

https://www.actionnetwork.com/nba/nba-mvp-betting-odds-giannis-antetokounmpo-james-harden-february-25-2019


It seems like it was only yesterday that the entire NBA community had essentially named James Harden the 2018-19 MVP. Harden averaged 43.6 points per game in January, and honestly hasn’t missed much of a beat this month (37.3 PPG).

In fact, just one month ago he was listed as a -500 favorite to win the award. The race looked all but over.

Well, things have changed a bit since then.
Here’s a look at the latest odds to win the 2018-19 NBA MVP (if you’re unfamiliar with the odds below, a $250 bet on -250 odds would net $100, and a $100 bet on +200 odds would net $200):


Giannis: -250
Harden: +200
PG: +700

Curry/Lebron/Kawhi/KD, etc all tied for 4th.




I called this coming. Giannis rightfully/clearly overtook the race.

mightybosstone
03-01-2019, 01:07 AM
Another 50-plus point performance from Harden as the media continues to gloss over his historic season in favor of the media friendly Giannis. :pity:

GREATNESS ONE
03-01-2019, 01:12 AM
Love ya MBT but cannot stand Harens game.

mightybosstone
03-01-2019, 01:40 AM
Love ya MBT but cannot stand Harens game.

Don't care if other people can stand it, and neither does Harden. The dude should be MVP. If it were any other player doing this in the same circumstances, there would hardly be any debate against it.

c.c.
03-01-2019, 01:45 AM
Love ya MBT but cannot stand Harens game.


If he was doing this in a Lakers uniform, you would be loving it.

That’s likewise for any other anti-Harden fan out there.

FlashBolt
03-01-2019, 07:56 AM
If he was doing this in a Lakers uniform, you would be loving it.

That’s likewise for any other anti-Harden fan out there.

Same on your end. If he was playing vs you guys, pretty sure you would feel disgusted at times.

FlashBolt
03-01-2019, 07:58 AM
Giannis is MVP. Dominates games with the most ease and doesn't need to have the ball every possession to produce. PG is my 2nd choice. Harden third but there isn't a fourth or fifth option at all to me.

Heediot
03-01-2019, 08:50 AM
Another 50-plus point performance from Harden as the media continues to gloss over his historic season in favor of the media friendly Giannis. :pity:

He puts that on himself with his ref baiting. People and the media are turned off. Thus why a 35 point can't even win the starter fan vote.

Giannis has a strong case based off of two way play dominance.

More-Than-Most
03-01-2019, 08:58 AM
It has been and still is James harden.

Htownballa1622
03-01-2019, 09:34 AM
Today, it's

Giannis
Harden

PG13.

Giannis and Harden could flip depending on records and finishing stretch. Pg13 would need to go nuts or his team finish in top 2 in west to pass the other 2.

kdspurman
03-01-2019, 10:40 AM
Another 50-plus point performance from Harden as the media continues to gloss over his historic season in favor of the media friendly Giannis. :pity:

Doesnt mean Giannis isn't also deserving tho. His 2 way impact + team record?

Harden was all the media was talking about for a while. It won't always be like that throughout the course of a season. He isn't the runaway MVP at this point

Htownballa1622
03-01-2019, 11:45 AM
Here's my question...

How many mvps would Harden have if he played for the Lakers doing this exact thing. Pretend his rockets years were the exact same and his team is just L.A Lakers.

I just find it funny when the goalposts move to try and prove Harden isn't mvp.

kdspurman
03-01-2019, 11:47 AM
Here's my question...

How many mvps would Harden have if he played for the Lakers doing this exact thing. Pretend his rockets years were the exact same and his team is just L.A Lakers.

I just find it funny when the goalposts move to try and prove Harden isn't mvp.

I don't think people are moving goalposts, just not everyone thinks he's the unanimous MVP anymore? :shrug:

It's safe to say he probably was the first few months of the season, but things change.

Htownballa1622
03-01-2019, 12:00 PM
I don't think people are moving goalposts, just not everyone thinks he's the unanimous MVP anymore? :shrug:

It's safe to say he probably was the first few months of the season, but things change.

Dont confuse me saying moving of goalposts in the past few years with me saying that this year.

I said Giannis is the mvp slightly ahead right now. I'm talking about in the past.

tredigs
03-01-2019, 10:43 PM
Here's my question...

How many mvps would Harden have if he played for the Lakers doing this exact thing. Pretend his rockets years were the exact same and his team is just L.A Lakers.

I just find it funny when the goalposts move to try and prove Harden isn't mvp.

Harden has the right amount of MVP's. He blew his one against Westbrook by being outplayed significantly down the stretch (especially with Westbrooks huge moments). Deserves no other MVP.

FlashBolt
03-02-2019, 01:40 AM
Why do Rockets fans pretend that Harden is the only MVP candidate? This isn't a Stephen Curry 2016 dominance year in which no other player was close. Stop the nonsense already, seriously.

mightybosstone
03-02-2019, 09:59 AM
Why do Rockets fans pretend that Harden is the only MVP candidate? This isn't a Stephen Curry 2016 dominance year in which no other player was close. Stop the nonsense already, seriously.

He's not the only candidate, but when a guy scores 36 ****ing points a game while keeping his team afloat in a stacked Western Conference while his second, third and fourth best players all miss massive portions of the season, I think the award should be more obvious.

Sorry if I don't think Giannis scoring 10 fewer points per game on a stacked roster in an inferior conference deserves the award or PG scoring 8 fewer points per game for a team that is practically neck and neck with the Rockets right now.

Harden is having a historic season, and he had it when the Rockets needed it the most. If he's not putting up insane numbers every night, he and the Rockets would be hanging out with Lebron and the Lakers right now outside the playoff standings.

Heediot
03-03-2019, 06:50 AM
He's not the only candidate, but when a guy scores 36 ****ing points a game while keeping his team afloat in a stacked Western Conference while his second, third and fourth best players all miss massive portions of the season, I think the award should be more obvious.

Sorry if I don't think Giannis scoring 10 fewer points per game on a stacked roster in an inferior conference deserves the award or PG scoring 8 fewer points per game for a team that is practically neck and neck with the Rockets right now.

Harden is having a historic season, and he had it when the Rockets needed it the most. If he's not putting up insane numbers every night, he and the Rockets would be hanging out with Lebron and the Lakers right now outside the playoff standings.

I don't think the Bucks are stacked, they are just well coached and cohesive, just like how Houston was last year. They just surrounded Giannis with the right players.

Harden is still stat padding, yeah he caught fire the other night but he was like 1-25 on treys the prior two after Houston beat GS without him. That GS game showed that they don't need to rely on him now as much as they did a month or so ago, yet he's still chucking away, stat/mvp hunting. I think it means more for him to win a mvp vs. others. Sure the Rox play off of his skills, but I think the guy is one of the most inherently self absorbed players no matter what he says to the media/other coaches.

I wouldn't care or argue if he won the mvp. Just not a fan of Harden's game and stat hunting.

GREATNESS ONE
03-03-2019, 05:07 PM
Same on your end. If he was playing vs you guys, pretty sure you would feel disgusted at times.

:hi5:

Giannis94
03-04-2019, 12:06 PM
I don't think the Bucks are stacked, they are just well coached and cohesive, just like how Houston was last year. They just surrounded Giannis with the right players.

Harden is still stat padding, yeah he caught fire the other night but he was like 1-25 on treys the prior two after Houston beat GS without him. That GS game showed that they don't need to rely on him now as much as they did a month or so ago, yet he's still chucking away, stat/mvp hunting. I think it means more for him to win a mvp vs. others. Sure the Rox play off of his skills, but I think the guy is one of the most inherently self absorbed players no matter what he says to the media/other coaches.

I wouldn't care or argue if he won the mvp. Just not a fan of Harden's game and stat hunting.

and awul defense.

Htownballa1622
03-04-2019, 12:09 PM
and awul defense.

Harden's defense is better than Giannis' outside shooting. ;)

Htownballa1622
03-04-2019, 12:10 PM
Harden has the right amount of MVP's. He blew his one against Westbrook by being outplayed significantly down the stretch (especially with Westbrooks huge moments). Deserves no other MVP.

That's not what I asked.

Driven
03-05-2019, 11:24 PM
I got no problem with Harden not getting the MVP, but using the reasoning of to Rockets beating the Warriors without Harden is pretty silly. Houston beat the Warriors back in January with Harden and without CP3 and Gordon. When Harden hit that three to win it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

cmellofan15
03-08-2019, 05:48 PM
I got no problem with Harden not getting the MVP, but using the reasoning of to Rockets beating the Warriors without Harden is pretty silly. Houston beat the Warriors back in January with Harden and without CP3 and Gordon. When Harden hit that three to win it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Well that's because you refuse to use stupid logic. How about you put on a dunce cap and reassess?

Look at how early in the season the bucks with Giannis beat the Bulls by like 3 points and then when he was out at the end of February they won by double digits. Then you start to question: is this guy really an MVP?

Disregard any other games they played against each other or any other variables in those games. As a matter of fact, throw out the entire body of work this season and look at things in a vacuum. That's how you get to that conclusion :laugh2:

TakeYourL
03-10-2019, 04:42 AM
WeHarden should get the mvp, the NBA has always given the mvp to awards to the most offensively dominant players.

I don't necessarily agree with that but thats how it is so it should go to harden and that's a pretty easy pick if we go by NBA history.

For christ sake, Steve Nash won 2 MVPs while being the worst defensive player in the NBA, on a team that ran a system that juiced offensive stats.

It's no mistake that Steve Nash played his best ball and won 2 mvps with Mike d.
It's not mistake Lin went from the d league to linsanity with Mike d
And it's no mistake harden puts up godly stats with Mike d.

Mike Ds system juices stats for pgs.

Now every team runs the same damn system, and the entire nba has juiced stats, but that's not the point, offensive production wins MVPs.

And harden will win this seasons mvp.

Htownballa1622
03-12-2019, 09:57 AM
Since PG has been back he's shot 22/72 for 30.5%.

Either he's hurt with his shoulder or he's finally regressing to his mean. Whichever it is, I'd say he's now firmly 3rd behind the top two.

cmellofan15
03-12-2019, 12:03 PM
Since PG has been back he's shot 22/72 for 30.5%.

Either he's hurt with his shoulder or he's finally regressing to his mean. Whichever it is, I'd say he's now firmly 3rd behind the top two.

4th behind Jokic. Worse player on a worse team.

tredigs
03-12-2019, 12:40 PM
Crazy that a guy shooting 43.6% from the field and 35.9% from 3 is putting up 36 ppg. He actually just joined Curry as the only other player with 300 made 3's in a season; Over the past 2 months (25 games) averaging 14.5 attempted 3s a game at 31.9%. Still a great season overall, but dear God man, reel it in.

Giannis has seen his limited 3pt attempts rise throughout the year from 10% to 25%. 35% the past 25 games while maintaining the god level 58% FG on 28/13/6 with elite D. Gotta be MVP with Milwaukee having the 1 seed all but sown up.

prodigy
03-12-2019, 12:46 PM
Raptors still can't beat the cavs LMAO! Cavs missing half the team also.

mightybosstone
03-19-2019, 02:00 PM
With OKC falling off, I think this is definitely starting to look like a two-man race barring George doing something truly spectacular in the last month. The most recent odds I've seen have Giannis as a pretty heavy favorite over Harden, but I'm curious as to what criteria bookmakers are really looking at.

For me, the one thing Giannis always had going for him over Harden this year was the massive edge in team success since the start of the season. But with the Rockets climbing to third in the West and likely to finish with a top 4-5 record in the NBA and the Bucks starting to tail off a bit, how strong is that narrative going to be if the Rockets finish only 5-6 games behind Milwaukee despite playing in a more challenging conference?

As much as I wish the award wasn't based on small sample sizes, I do think that head-to-head matchup on March 26 will carry a lot of weight in voting. Despite Harden outplaying Giannis in their last matchup (at least in my eyes) for a shorthanded Rockets team, the Bucks won and the media narrative seemed to tip more toward Giannis afterward.

It will be interesting to see how that matchup and how the teams finish the season ultimately morphs the conversation around the award. Giannis is probably going to win it, but things could shift in a hurry...

More-Than-Most
03-20-2019, 06:38 AM
On off net who is best? Nobody does more than Joel... Example tonight... Giannis team won without him and about 3 other players by 14 plus against the lakers... the sixers with everyone except embiid won by 2 but should have lost... Joel or harden should be MVP because nobody does more and is more valuable to their team.

tredigs
03-20-2019, 10:32 AM
On off net who is best? Nobody does more than Joel... Example tonight... Giannis team won without him and about 3 other players by 14 plus against the lakers... the sixers with everyone except embiid won by 2 but should have lost... Joel or harden should be MVP because nobody does more and is more valuable to their team.

:laugh:

mightybosstone
03-22-2019, 10:26 PM
Harden had his second game in a row with just an otherworldly stretch at the very end of a close game. I said it in the game thread tonight, but if you don't think Harden deserves MVP, you should seriously watch the final minutes of each of the last two games.

tredigs
03-23-2019, 10:09 AM
Harden has been fantastic the past two games and will be re-entering the top of the debate accordingly. Nothing voters love more than big point games. But, it still doesn't change the fact that he has shot abysmally per MVP standards for months. Meanwhile, Giannis in his first game back with the ultra efficient 27/8/7 with elite D and the 30 point win in 28 minutes of play. Not giving an inch.

Chronz
03-23-2019, 11:13 AM
Shaping up to be the toughest MVP race to call in quite some time. I had Giannis but Harden has been devastating of late. Its a toss up for me now

mightybosstone
03-23-2019, 11:30 AM
Harden has been fantastic the past two games and will be re-entering the top of the debate accordingly. Nothing voters love more than big point games. But, it still doesn't change the fact that he has shot abysmally per MVP standards for months. Meanwhile, Giannis in his first game back with the ultra efficient 27/8/7 with elite D and the 30 point win in 28 minutes of play. Not giving an inch.

What are you talking about exactly? Harden's shooting percentages are pretty much around his career averages, and his TS% is still at a fairly elite level at 61.2 percent (despite his insanely high volume and usage). As for shooting "abysmally for months," I don't know what months you're referring to. He's shot at least 43 percent from the floor every month this season and had only one month where he shot worse than around 35 percent from the 3-point line.

mightybosstone
03-23-2019, 11:36 AM
Shaping up to be the toughest MVP race to call in quite some time. I had Giannis but Harden has been devastating of late. Its a toss up for me now

Yeah, I think Tuesday's matchup is going to play a big role in the media narrative for the last month of the season. Whoever wins that game is going to have some serious momentum heading into the vote.

TheDish87
03-23-2019, 03:14 PM
its Embiid

Driven
03-23-2019, 05:00 PM
What are you talking about exactly? Harden's shooting percentages are pretty much around his career averages, and his TS% is still at a fairly elite level at 61.2 percent (despite his insanely high volume and usage). As for shooting "abysmally for months," I don't know what months you're referring to. He's shot at least 43 percent from the floor every month this season and had only one month where he shot worse than around 35 percent from the 3-point line.

Harden doesn’t shoot a great percentage from three because of his volume. But for his volume, it’s very efficient. He went through a cold spell for a bit, but I don’t think anyone on the mvp committee is going to care about his “low” three point numbers.

I do think that Giannis is the MVP. Both he and Harden deserve it though. It wouldn’t be a bad year for a co-MVP

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

tredigs
03-24-2019, 06:35 AM
What are you talking about exactly? Harden's shooting percentages are pretty much around his career averages, and his TS% is still at a fairly elite level at 61.2 percent (despite his insanely high volume and usage). As for shooting "abysmally for months," I don't know what months you're referring to. He's shot at least 43 percent from the floor every month this season and had only one month where he shot worse than around 35 percent from the 3-point line.

I'm talking about his last 30+ games where he is shooting 43.9% from the field and 33.4% from 3. If you don't get that there is nothing remotely impressive about that, I can't help you. He is living on his free throws.

More-Than-Most
03-24-2019, 06:54 AM
its Embiid

he wont win it because people are morons. Nobody is more important. Its honestly

Embiid/Harden


Giannis


Everyone else... But na. People are stupid.

mightybosstone
03-24-2019, 09:34 AM
I'm talking about his last 30+ games where he is shooting 43.9% from the field and 33.4% from 3. If you don't get that there is nothing remotely impressive about that, I can't help you. He is living on his free throws.

:facepalm: Again, 43.9 percent is with a half percentage point of his career average (actually higher than his percentage this season).

Regarding the 3-point shooting, first, at the volume he shoots and the difficulty of the shots he's taking, shooting 33 percent from the 3-point line isn't awful. That's still the equivalent of 50 percent on twos. Second, I'm not sure where you're getting that number from, but it feels off to me. According to Harden's splits, he shot 35.3 percent in February and 35.5 percent in March.

He had one really, really bad shooting stretch right after the All-Star break where he hit like 7 of 44 3-pointers over a four-game stretch. And he's spotty, so he's going to go through stretches like that, but overall he's still an above average 3-point shooter. Nobody's going to compare his 3-point shooting numbers to Curry or Thompson, for example, but catch and shoot 3s is never is game, and so that's not exactly an apples to apples comparison.

So, again, I have no clue what you're referring to. The guy has been dominant, period. And if "unimpressive" 3-point shooting is your sole factor in determining MVP, then Giannis must really be in trouble.

Unrelated, but I think I'm getting a little tired of seeing the "If you don't know this thing, I can't help you" argument on PSD. That feels like the lazy, arrogant way of trying to end the conversation, and it's drastically overused. That should be saved for moments when something is so overwhelmingly obvious, a non-NBA fan would be able to look at it and recognize the trend. But using it all the time or for arguments like this just feels especially asinine. Pick your moments, dude.

Heediot
03-24-2019, 10:15 PM
Harden chucking just as much as he was when all them dudes were injured. Dude said he'd tone it down when everyone is healthy, but he really wants to rack up the numbers and mvp.

tredigs
03-25-2019, 05:05 AM
:facepalm: Again, 43.9 percent is with a half percentage point of his career average (actually higher than his percentage this season).

Regarding the 3-point shooting, first, at the volume he shoots and the difficulty of the shots he's taking, shooting 33 percent from the 3-point line isn't awful. That's still the equivalent of 50 percent on twos. Second, I'm not sure where you're getting that number from, but it feels off to me. According to Harden's splits, he shot 35.3 percent in February and 35.5 percent in March.

He had one really, really bad shooting stretch right after the All-Star break where he hit like 7 of 44 3-pointers over a four-game stretch. And he's spotty, so he's going to go through stretches like that, but overall he's still an above average 3-point shooter. Nobody's going to compare his 3-point shooting numbers to Curry or Thompson, for example, but catch and shoot 3s is never is game, and so that's not exactly an apples to apples comparison.

So, again, I have no clue what you're referring to. The guy has been dominant, period. And if "unimpressive" 3-point shooting is your sole factor in determining MVP, then Giannis must really be in trouble.

Unrelated, but I think I'm getting a little tired of seeing the "If you don't know this thing, I can't help you" argument on PSD. That feels like the lazy, arrogant way of trying to end the conversation, and it's drastically overused. That should be saved for moments when something is so overwhelmingly obvious, a non-NBA fan would be able to look at it and recognize the trend. But using it all the time or for arguments like this just feels especially asinine. Pick your moments, dude.

:hi5: Kerri Strug may have to donate her medal to Rockets fans for their mental gymnastics in defending Harden's **** shooting on this MVP campaign (a campaign we all know he cares far more about than the Rockets post season success by the way).

More-Than-Most
03-25-2019, 05:15 AM
Crazy that a guy shooting 43.6% from the field and 35.9% from 3 is putting up 36 ppg. He actually just joined Curry as the only other player with 300 made 3's in a season; Over the past 2 months (25 games) averaging 14.5 attempted 3s a game at 31.9%. Still a great season overall, but dear God man, reel it in.

Giannis has seen his limited 3pt attempts rise throughout the year from 10% to 25%. 35% the past 25 games while maintaining the god level 58% FG on 28/13/6 with elite D. Gotta be MVP with Milwaukee having the 1 seed all but sown up.

value... which team needed every shooter in the world around them to cover up for their liabilities and what guy carries his team nomatter who is in the lineup? Your hate for harden is hilarious... the dude has carried them to a top 4 record in the west while putting up an insane season... its harden or Embiid... Nobody is more valuable to their teams.

Heediot
03-25-2019, 06:58 AM
value... which team needed every shooter in the world around them to cover up for their liabilities and what guy carries his team nomatter who is in the lineup? Your hate for harden is hilarious... the dude has carried them to a top 4 record in the west while putting up an insane season... its harden or Embiid... Nobody is more valuable to their teams.

Add Jokic to the list.

Bron and Cp3 possibly. Although both guys could be argued to be on the decline. Cp3 has always taken his team to a low seed playoff in the west (at least especially in NO) regardless of who's on his team. No need to justify things for Bron.

mightybosstone
03-25-2019, 10:30 AM
:hi5: Kerri Strug may have to donate her medal to Rockets fans for their mental gymnastics in defending Harden's **** shooting on this MVP campaign (a campaign we all know he cares far more about than the Rockets post season success by the way).

:shrug: I kinda think you're doing mental gymnastics to try and crap on his MVP campaign, dude. Again, let's review the facts:
1. Harden's 43.9% shooting this season is basically his career average and, while slightly below average, is understandable given the large volume of 3-pointers he shoots. It's also only 1 percentage point below his MVP season last year and a tenth of a percentage point below his 2014-15 and 2016-17 figures when he finished second in MVP voting.
2. He's shooting 36.5% from the 3-point line, an above average number which is way more impressive given his volume (13.3 attempts per game) and the degree of difficulty of those shots, which are typically unassisted and mostly stepbacks.
3. His 61.3% TS% is elite, so regardless of how he's shooting from the floor, he's still an insanely efficient offensive basketball player.
4. The dude is scoring 36.4 freaking points per game, and he's doing it on fewer than 25 shot attempts a night. That's crazy efficient. MJ's best scoring seasons (35 points on 24.4 FGA and 37.1 points on 27.8 FGA) and Kobe's (35.4 points on 27.2 FGA) pail in comparison.

So, again, what's your justification for this awful shooting season that Harden is apparently having? Because every statistic points to that not being the case, and you've yet to really provide evidence to support that claim.

Rivera
03-25-2019, 10:43 AM
if you asked me about 2 weeks ago, I thought Giannis had this locked up

Hardens just been ridiculous. I really am split and have no idea who is going to win it this year

tredigs
03-25-2019, 10:47 AM
:shrug: I kinda think you're doing mental gymnastics to try and crap on his MVP campaign, dude. Again, let's review the facts:
1. Harden's 43.9% shooting this season is basically his career average and, while slightly below average, is understandable given the large volume of 3-pointers he shoots. It's also only 1 percentage point below his MVP season last year and a tenth of a percentage point below his 2014-15 and 2016-17 figures when he finished second in MVP voting.
2. He's shooting 36.5% from the 3-point line, an above average number which is way more impressive given his volume (13.3 attempts per game) and the degree of difficulty of those shots, which are typically unassisted and mostly stepbacks.
3. His 61.3% TS% is elite, so regardless of how he's shooting from the floor, he's still an insanely efficient offensive basketball player.
4. The dude is scoring 36.4 freaking points per game, and he's doing it on fewer than 25 shot attempts a night. That's crazy efficient. MJ's best scoring seasons (35 points on 24.4 FGA and 37.1 points on 27.8 FGA) and Kobe's (35.4 points on 27.2 FGA) pail in comparison.

So, again, what's your justification for this awful shooting season that Harden is apparently having? Because every statistic points to that not being the case, and you've yet to really provide evidence to support that claim.

I'm not sure why you keep repeating yourself. I know his numbers, I know his game. His 61.3% TS is in fact elite, and it is entirely predicated on the fact that he is the top Free Throw shooter (between volume and efficiency) in the NBA. It is his sheer volume of shots and FT attempts that lands him at 36 ppg. Not some wild efficiency. He's not a good 3pt shooter. He's not an amazing shooter inside the arc either. It is what it is. It's a worthy MVP campaign, but certainly no runaway, and I still have him as a clear 2nd to Giannis, and clearly not the best of the best in the NBA. No better player at exploiting those in the regular season, though.

tredigs
03-25-2019, 10:56 AM
Sportsbook wise, Giannis is still the significant favorite, as he should be.

mightybosstone
03-25-2019, 11:17 AM
I'm not sure why you keep repeating yourself. I know his numbers, I know his game. His 61.3% TS is in fact elite, and it is entirely predicated on the fact that he is the top Free Throw shooter (between volume and efficiency) in the NBA. It is his sheer volume of shots and FT attempts that lands him at 36 ppg. Not some wild efficiency. He's not a good 3pt shooter. He's not an amazing shooter inside the arc either. It is what it is. It's a worthy MVP campaign, but certainly no runaway, and I still have him as a clear 2nd to Giannis, and clearly not the best of the best in the NBA. No better player at exploiting those in the regular season, though.

Thanks for that incredibly bland, stats free, surface level analysis. Really good stuff. I love how a guy who makes 36.5 percent of his 3-point shots on more than 13 attempts a game is "not a good 3-point shooter." :pity:

Also, you might want to be careful what you say about Harden's awful shooting numbers. I might just have to pull up Curry's numbers since the All-Star break. ;)

Edit: Looked it up out of of curiosity, and the league average for 3-point shooting this season is 35.5 percent. Harden is shooting a higher percentage from the 3-point line every team in the NBA with the exception of five. He is by every definition a "good 3-point shooter." You're reaching.

Edit 2: Also, on the "he's only efficient because of his free throws" argument, Harden's eFG% this season (53.7%) is higher than the league average (52.3%) and is 57th highest in the league. Not an incredible number by any means, but it certainly disproves the theory that he's only efficient because of free throws. Take away free throws, and he's still above average in terms of efficiency.

tredigs
03-25-2019, 11:50 AM
Thanks for that incredibly bland, stats free, surface level analysis. Really good stuff. I love how a guy who makes 36.5 percent of his 3-point shots on more than 13 attempts a game is "not a good 3-point shooter." :pity:

Also, you might want to be careful what you say about Harden's awful shooting numbers. I might just have to pull up Curry's numbers since the All-Star break. ;)

Edit: Looked it up out of of curiosity, and the league average for 3-point shooting this season is 35.5 percent. Harden is shooting a higher percentage from the 3-point line every team in the NBA with the exception of five. He is by every definition a "good 3-point shooter." You're reaching.

Lmfao. I would say that falls directly in line with the definition of a VERY AVERAGE 3pt shooter. Of those with >300 3pt attempts, Harden falls outside the top 40 in 3pt percentage. What a stud. His volume is not hurting his efficiency, it is exactly in line with his career average, as is his pathetic 43% FG. Curry's shooting numbers (no clue why you bring him up as he is not the one openly targeting MVP nor in the discussion) post AS are an abysmal 42% from the field and 39% from 3 (just 15 games mind you). And that still ***** on Harden's post AS 43% from the field and 35% from 3. Once again, his overall efficiency being saved by his volume free throw attempts. I'm just not one for giving MVP's to guys whose #1 attribute is attempting to draw contact and take shots that nobody can defend. Specifically when that player has been embarrassed so often in the post-season. He should not get the benefit of the doubt over a 2 way superstar who is putting up an otherworldly 27/13/6 on a 64+% TS (58% FG) while leading the league in Win Shares (WS/48), PER, DBPM, and even PIPM over Curry. That said, it is a legendary scoring season from Harden that is set on the foundation of his monumental ability to draw whistles in the regular season.

mightybosstone
03-25-2019, 11:54 AM
One last thing, and I'll drop this until after Tuesday's game: https://www.nba.com/mvp-ladder

Spoilers: Harden's in first, and that ranking was BEFORE he dropped 61 on the Spurs and single-handedly won them the game with a 13-2 run at the end of the fourth over the weekend.

tredigs
03-25-2019, 12:03 PM
One last thing, and I'll drop this until after Tuesday's game: https://www.nba.com/mvp-ladder

Spoilers: Harden's in first, and that ranking was BEFORE he dropped 61 on the Spurs and single-handedly won them the game with a 13-2 run at the end of the fourth over the weekend.
:laugh:

Well if village idiot Sekou Smith says so, must be true!

Not exactly helping your case bud.

As far as who the actual projected winner is (less important to me than who deserves it), it's Giannis by a 2/1 favorite over Harden.

valade16
03-25-2019, 12:11 PM
Bball-ref has Giannis at around a 70% chance to win the award, with Harden at 23%.

mightybosstone
03-25-2019, 12:20 PM
:laugh:

Well if village idiot Sekou Smith says so, must be true!

Not exactly helping your case bud.

As far as who the actual projected winner is (less important to me than who deserves it), it's Giannis by a 2/1 favorite over Harden.

Yeah, good job glossing over the statistical analysis from the previous post and going straight for the easy pickings of the NBA MVP ladder. It's much easier to make jokes and attack the low-hanging fruit than it is to have a legitimate NBA discussion, isn't it?

Also, my point in posting this isn't to say that one man's opinion makes a difference or that I even like the NBA MVP ladder. My point is that so much of the MVP award is media narrative and momentum in public opinion. I'm hearing a LOT of people supporting Harden for MVP over the last few days, and the current narrative seems a hell of a lot cloudier than it was a week or two ago.

mightybosstone
03-25-2019, 12:27 PM
Bball-ref has Giannis at around a 70% chance to win the award, with Harden at 23%.

Yeah, but that formula can't account for the all-important narrative factor. Two years ago, Harden was heavily favored to win MVP, according to Basketball Reference, but Westbrook won because he averaged a triple double and everyone seemed to think that was more important.

Also, I just pulled it up, and MVP tracker has Giannis favored at 53 percent right now, not 70 percent.

tredigs
03-25-2019, 12:49 PM
Yeah, good job glossing over the statistical analysis from the previous post and going straight for the easy pickings of the NBA MVP ladder. It's much easier to make jokes and attack the low-hanging fruit than it is to have a legitimate NBA discussion, isn't it?

Also, my point in posting this isn't to say that one man's opinion makes a difference or that I even like the NBA MVP ladder. My point is that so much of the MVP award is media narrative and momentum in public opinion. I'm hearing a LOT of people supporting Harden for MVP over the last few days, and the current narrative seems a hell of a lot cloudier than it was a week or two ago.
I already responded to your hard hitting statistical analysis. Here's the synopsis: No, Harden is not a good 3pt shooter. Or 2pt shooter. But a true legend when unguarded at the FT line.


As far as who actually wins, again, that is secondary in the discussion for me, and again, Harden is the clear underdog. Rest assure, Vegas is much more in tune with the narrative and likelihood of who will win than you are.

mightybosstone
03-25-2019, 01:03 PM
I already responded to your hard hitting statistical analysis. Here's the synopsis: No, Harden is not a good 3pt shooter. Or 2pt shooter. But a true legend when unguarded at the FT line.


As far as who actually wins, again, that is secondary in the discussion for me, and again, Harden is the clear underdog. Rest assure, Vegas is much more in tune with the narrative and likelihood of who will win than you are.
Except you were proven wrong and had zero statistical evidence to support your claim.

And I never said I thought Harden would win the award. That's not what you and I have been debating. We're arguing whether he's worthy of the award, primarily based on his shooting efficiency, which is above average by pretty much every single statistical barometer used to judge shooting and scoring efficiency.

tredigs
03-25-2019, 01:20 PM
Except you were proven wrong and had zero statistical evidence to support your claim.

And I never said I thought Harden would win the award. That's not what you and I have been debating. We're arguing whether he's worthy of the award, primarily based on his shooting efficiency, which is above average by pretty much every single statistical barometer used to judge shooting and scoring efficiency.
I'll just re-quote myself since you seem to be struggling to grasp here.


Lmfao. I would say that falls directly in line with the definition of a VERY AVERAGE 3pt shooter. Of those with >300 3pt attempts, Harden falls outside the top 40 in 3pt percentage. What a stud. His volume is not hurting his efficiency, it is exactly in line with his career average, as is his pathetic 43% FG. Curry's shooting numbers (no clue why you bring him up as he is not the one openly targeting MVP nor in the discussion) post AS are an abysmal 42% from the field and 39% from 3 (just 15 games mind you). And that still ***** on Harden's post AS 43% from the field and 35% from 3. Once again, his overall efficiency being saved by his volume free throw attempts. I'm just not one for giving MVP's to guys whose #1 attribute is attempting to draw contact and take shots that nobody can defend. Specifically when that player has been embarrassed so often in the post-season. He should not get the benefit of the doubt over a 2 way superstar who is putting up an otherworldly 27/13/6 on a 64+% TS (58% FG) while leading the league in Win Shares (WS/48), PER, DBPM, and even PIPM over Curry. That said, it is a legendary scoring season from Harden that is set on the foundation of his monumental ability to draw whistles in the regular season.

valade16
03-25-2019, 01:36 PM
Yeah, but that formula can't account for the all-important narrative factor. Two years ago, Harden was heavily favored to win MVP, according to Basketball Reference, but Westbrook won because he averaged a triple double and everyone seemed to think that was more important.

Also, I just pulled it up, and MVP tracker has Giannis favored at 53 percent right now, not 70 percent.

Yes, Giannis is now at 53% and Harden is at 23%

mightybosstone
03-25-2019, 01:42 PM
I'll just re-quote myself since you seem to be struggling to grasp here.

Why does it matter if he's in the top 40 in 3-point percentage of guys who shot at least 300 attempts? Why is that the sole barometer by which you judge MVP candidates? Not every scorer is Curry or Thompson. Hell, some guys aren't good 3-point shooters at all and are still MVP candidates, like Giannis, who you seem to agree is the most likely MVP candidate.

In fact, if we looked at who the top 5 MVP candidates were this season, you could make a strong case that it's Giannis, Harden, George, Embiid and Jokic. Guess what? Harden's the second best 3-point shooter among that group of players, and he's third in eFG% among those players, less than a percentage point behind Jokic. So shooting and scoring efficiency clearly aren't issues where Harden is a step behind the other candidates.

Edit: I didn't see your original response to this as it got buried between my replies, so my apologies for missing it.

tredigs
03-25-2019, 01:44 PM
Why does it matter if he's in the top 40 in 3-point percentage of guys who shot at least 300 attempts? Why is that the sole barometer by which you judge MVP candidates? Not every scorer is Curry or Thompson. Hell, some guys aren't good 3-point shooters at all and are still MVP candidates, like Giannis, who you seem to agree is the most likely MVP candidate.

In fact, if we looked at who the top 5 MVP candidates were this season, you could make a strong case that it's Giannis, Harden, George, Embiid and Jokic. Guess what? Harden's the second best 3-point shooter among that group of players, and he's third in eFG% among those players, less than a percentage point behind Jokic. So shooting and scoring efficiency clearly aren't issues where Harden is a step behind the other candidates.

Edit: I didn't see your original response to this as it got buried between my replies, so my apologies for missing it.

AND THAT, ladies and gentlemen, is how you move a goal-post.

Rivera
03-25-2019, 01:45 PM
Yeah, but that formula can't account for the all-important narrative factor. Two years ago, Harden was heavily favored to win MVP, according to Basketball Reference, but Westbrook won because he averaged a triple double and everyone seemed to think that was more important.

Also, I just pulled it up, and MVP tracker has Giannis favored at 53 percent right now, not 70 percent.

I feel Giannis has Harden beat in this category. Look at where the Bucks were last year compared to this year. More people i feel are talking about Giannis than Harden.

Its not fair to Harden either cause he has a strong narrative and this output was needed to get Houston back on track and the margin like a lot of other stats is so slim lol

this is really the hardest choice in years

tredigs
03-25-2019, 01:56 PM
My favorite of the newer all in one publicly available stats (and not just because it supports this particular debate): PIPM: https://www.bball-index.com/18-pipm/

For 2019:

1) Giannis
2) Curry
3) PG
4) Embiid
5) AD
6) Durant
7) Lillard
8) Nurkic
9) Vuvecic
10) Harden

(Jokic, Gobert, Lebron follow)

valade16
03-25-2019, 02:02 PM
My favorite of the newer all in one publicly available stats (and not just because it supports this particular debate): PIPM: https://www.bball-index.com/18-pipm/

For 2019:

1) Giannis
2) Curry
3) PG
4) Embiid
5) AD
6) Durant
7) Lillard
8) Nurkic
9) Vuvecic
10) Harden

(Jokic, Gobert, Lebron follow)

How is Harden so low?

mightybosstone
03-25-2019, 02:07 PM
AND THAT, ladies and gentlemen, is how you move a goal-post.

What goal post did I move exactly? You said Harden's 3-point shooting and scoring efficiency weren't worthy of MVP candidacy. I've posted numerous stats now suggesting that his 3-point shooting and scoring efficiency (with or without free throws) are all above average numbers.

tredigs
03-25-2019, 02:22 PM
How is Harden so low?

Horrible D rating. But rates excellent offensively. Giannis top 5 in both.

valade16
03-25-2019, 02:35 PM
Horrible D rating. But rates excellent offensively. Giannis top 5 in both.

I get it, but I think that Harden's offensive impact is greater to a larger degree than his defense is a negative impact to make him a more impactful player than Vucevic or Nurkic at the very least.

tredigs
03-25-2019, 02:35 PM
What goal post did I move exactly? You said Harden's 3-point shooting and scoring efficiency weren't worthy of MVP candidacy. I've posted numerous stats now suggesting that his 3-point shooting and scoring efficiency (with or without free throws) are all above average numbers.

AND this, ladies and gentlemen, is a strawman, as I never said anything of the sort.

You took umbrage with the fact that I said he was not a "good" 3pt shooter, then proved to me that he was in fact right in line with average 3pt shooting (being 0.9% above the mean does not make one "good", no), and then ignored that fact to still maintain he was good. I then further showed you how average he was (highlighting the dozens upon dozens of better volume 3pt shooters he is behind), and then you said, "but so what?!"

tredigs
03-25-2019, 02:36 PM
I get it, but I think that Harden's offensive impact is greater to a larger degree than his defense is a negative impact to make him a more impactful player than Vucevic or Nurkic at the very least.

Clearly, but you're always going to have some statistical noise in a All in one stat.

valade16
03-25-2019, 02:45 PM
Clearly, but you're always going to have some statistical noise in a All in one stat.

True, and Nurkic's advanced numbers have been very good (though Stotts has done a good job hiding him when he's a negative matchup wise).

Portland really needed Nurkic to step up and be the 3rd wheel for us to be successful. Too bad our ceiling is a 2nd round playoff exit.

mightybosstone
03-25-2019, 03:32 PM
AND this, ladies and gentlemen, is a strawman, as I never said anything of the sort.
Who are the ladies and gentlemen, you're referring to? Also, let me direct you to some direct quotes of yours from the last few pages:

But, it still doesn't change the fact that he has shot abysmally per MVP standards for months.


I'm talking about his last 30+ games where he is shooting 43.9% from the field and 33.4% from 3. If you don't get that there is nothing remotely impressive about that, I can't help you. He is living on his free throws.

The first insinuates that his shooting percentages have been "abysmal," when in fact they haven't. The second assumes his production is completely predicated on free throws and he'd be unproductive without them, which is blatantly untrue. The guys scores more points in the league sans-free throws than any player in the NBA this season.


You took umbrage with the fact that I said he was not a "good" 3pt shooter, then proved to me that he was in fact right in line with average 3pt shooting (being 0.9% above the mean does not make one "good", no), and then ignored that fact to still maintain he was good. I then further showed you how average he was (highlighting the dozens upon dozens of better volume 3pt shooters he is behind), and then you said, "but so what?!"
I'm sorry, but are you really going to sit here and argue semantics over what "good" means? Last time I checked, "good" and "above average" were fairly synonymous. When you're asked to take a survey about how something's service was, the first answer after the neutral response before you get to "Great" is "Good." There is no "Neutral," "Above average," "Good" and then "Great."

Harden is a good 3-point shooter. Period. A full percentage point above league average does make you a good 3-point shooter, ESPECIALLY when you factor in the sheer volume of 3-pointers he takes and even moreso when you factor in the difficulty of the shots he's making.

You can bring up other "volume shooters" in the NBA and their numbers, but he's taking way, way more shots than most of those guys. Sorry if I'm unimpressed by the fact that some guy named Damyean Dotson shoots a higher percentage on his measly 300 3-point attempts this season. But, yeah, I think Harden's 36.5 percent on 900+ attempts is way, way more impressive.

Chronz
03-25-2019, 03:53 PM
Yeah, but that formula can't account for the all-important narrative factor. Two years ago, Harden was heavily favored to win MVP, according to Basketball Reference, but Westbrook won because he averaged a triple double and everyone seemed to think that was more important.

Also, I just pulled it up, and MVP tracker has Giannis favored at 53 percent right now, not 70 percent.

True but they did augment the formula after RWB won.

tredigs
03-25-2019, 04:12 PM
Who are the ladies and gentlemen, you're referring to? Also, let me direct you to some direct quotes of yours from the last few pages:



The first insinuates that his shooting percentages have been "abysmal," when in fact they haven't. The second assumes his production is completely predicated on free throws and he'd be unproductive without them, which is blatantly untrue. The guys scores more points in the league sans-free throws than any player in the NBA this season.


I'm sorry, but are you really going to sit here and argue semantics over what "good" means? Last time I checked, "good" and "above average" were fairly synonymous. When you're asked to take a survey about how something's service was, the first answer after the neutral response before you get to "Great" is "Good." There is no "Neutral," "Above average," "Good" and then "Great."

Harden is a good 3-point shooter. Period. A full percentage point above league average does make you a good 3-point shooter, ESPECIALLY when you factor in the sheer volume of 3-pointers he takes and even moreso when you factor in the difficulty of the shots he's making.

You can bring up other "volume shooters" in the NBA and their numbers, but he's taking way, way more shots than most of those guys. Sorry if I'm unimpressed by the fact that some guy named Damyean Dotson shoots a higher percentage on his measly 300 3-point attempts this season. But, yeah, I think Harden's 36.5 percent on 900+ attempts is way, way more impressive.

You're just tiring at this point.

I did not insinuate anything, I mean EXACTLY WHAT I WROTE. "Abysmal shooting the past few months per MVP standards, 43.9% FG and 33.4% from 3". This is an MVP debate, and one where his scoring is the specific reason why he is in the debate. It is relevant. And yes, I am very aware/have brought up that his overall efficiency is still good. That is the crux of my position that I'm not exactly enamored with the idea of an MVP - whose case resides on his scoring ability - not being an elite scorer at either within or behind the arc. Simply elite at garnering contact and hitting foul shots, while being par for the course when a defender is actually near him. I am not ignoring the fact that it has its place or that he is a legitimate MVP candidate, just that we need to put this scoring in context.

And again, there is no semantics. 36.5% does not make you a good 3pt shooter. It falls precisely within the range of "average". You can have, "slightly above average" if it is easier for you to swallow. But he's not good, and damn sure not elite. Of the 53 players who have shot >5 3pt attempts a game this year, he ranks 31st, just ahead of Blake Griffin. I'm not sure how much more clear I can make it for you. He doesn't get bonus points for having poor shot selection or dribbling the air out of the ball in ISO before jacking up his step backs. And again, his volume does not matter. Harden shot 36.7% on 6.5 attempts in his first two years on the Rockets. He shot 36.9% on 4 attempts as a 3rd wheel in OKC. He shot 35.9% his last 3 years in Houston. There's zero correlation. Please feel free to stop regurgitating poorly thought out arguments with nothing to back them up.

tredigs
03-25-2019, 04:19 PM
This fantastic new video from Ben Taylor also feels relevant:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtEQxqVgP04

mightybosstone
03-25-2019, 04:34 PM
You're just tiring at this point.

I did not insinuate anything, I mean EXACTLY WHAT I WROTE. "Abysmal shooting the past few months per MVP standards, 43.9% FG and 33.4% from 3". This is an MVP debate, and one where his scoring is the specific reason why he is in the debate. It is relevant. And yes, I am very aware/have brought up that his overall efficiency is still good. That is the crux of my position that I'm not exactly enamored with the idea of an MVP - whose case resides on his scoring ability - not being an elite scorer at either within or behind the arc. Simply elite at garnering contact and hitting foul shots, while being par for the course when a defender is actually near him. I am not ignoring the fact that it has its place or that he is a legitimate MVP candidate, just that we need to put this scoring in context.

And again, there is no semantics. 36.5% does not make you a good 3pt shooter. It falls precisely within the range of "average". You can have, "slightly above average" if it is easier for you to swallow. But he's not good, and damn sure not elite. Of the 53 players who have shot >5 3pt attempts a game this year, he ranks 31st, just ahead of Blake Griffin. I'm not sure how much more clear I can make it for you. He doesn't get bonus points for having poor shot selection or dribbling the air out of the ball in ISO before jacking up his step backs. And again, his volume does not matter. Harden shot 36.7% on 6.5 attempts in his first two years on the Rockets. He shot 36.9% on 4 attempts as a 3rd wheel in OKC. He shot 35.9% his last 3 years in Houston. There's zero correlation. Please feel free to stop regurgitating poorly thought out arguments with nothing to back them up.

So you and I are just going to have to agree to disagree on this, but let's get away from some of this semantics discussion (and, yes, they're semantics whether you want to call them that or not).

Honest question for you: If you took any NBA star player and forced Harden's usage and FGA upon him, would that player be capable of producing at Harden's level with the same level of team success and efficiency?

Because in all of the things you're saying against the man, clearly volume and usage are clearly not something you're giving much value to. The fact that he's likely going to be one of only five men in league history to average 35+ points per game in a season, that he's on pace to post the second highest USG% in league history and that he's doing all of this while posting elite efficiency and above average shooting numbers for a team that's been dealt some serious injury problems and will still likely finish with a top 3 record in the West is just insanely impressive to me.

When Kobe had his crazy scoring season, he did so with two and a half more attempts per game, and that Lakers team was lucky to even make the playoffs. MJ's two incredible scoring seasons in the 80s, the Bulls were a shell of the team they would become, and he was taking more shots than Harden per point scored (and taking a crap ton of free throws). Harden's essentially doing what those guys did with far greater efficiency to greater team success despite huge injury challenges.

I just don't think you're giving any weight to that level of workload or volume at all, because I think there truly are few players in the league who would be capable of producing at that level on a nightly basis if given the green light to do so.

valade16
03-25-2019, 04:43 PM
So you and I are just going to have to agree to disagree on this, but let's get away from some of this semantics discussion (and, yes, they're semantics whether you want to call them that or not).

Honest question for you: If you took any NBA star player and forced Harden's usage and FGA upon him, would that player be capable of producing at Harden's level with the same level of team success and efficiency?

Because in all of the things you're saying against the man, clearly volume and usage are clearly not something you're giving much value to. The fact that he's likely going to be one of only five men in league history to average 35+ points per game in a season, that he's on pace to post the second highest USG% in league history and that he's doing all of this while posting elite efficiency and above average shooting numbers for a team that's been dealt some serious injury problems and will still likely finish with a top 3 record in the West is just insanely impressive to me.

When Kobe had his crazy scoring season, he did so with two and a half more attempts per game, and that Lakers team was lucky to even make the playoffs. MJ's two incredible scoring seasons in the 80s, the Bulls were a shell of the team they would become, and he was taking more shots than Harden per point scored (and taking a crap ton of free throws). Harden's essentially doing what those guys did with far greater efficiency to greater team success despite huge injury challenges.

I just don't think you're giving any weight to that level of workload or volume at all, because I think there truly are few players in the league who would be capable of producing at that level on a nightly basis if given the green light to do so.

How did you view RWB's usage when he won MVP? Because a big part of him winning it was how insane his usage was and that he needed to do that for them to win. it seems you are using the same argument here (or a similar one).

ewing
03-25-2019, 04:50 PM
RWB should win it again

tredigs
03-25-2019, 04:53 PM
So you and I are just going to have to agree to disagree on this, but let's get away from some of this semantics discussion (and, yes, they're semantics whether you want to call them that or not).

Honest question for you: If you took any NBA star player and forced Harden's usage and FGA upon him, would that player be capable of producing at Harden's level with the same level of team success and efficiency?

Because in all of the things you're saying against the man, clearly volume and usage are clearly not something you're giving much value to. The fact that he's likely going to be one of only five men in league history to average 35+ points per game in a season, that he's on pace to post the second highest USG% in league history and that he's doing all of this while posting elite efficiency and above average shooting numbers for a team that's been dealt some serious injury problems and will still likely finish with a top 3 record in the West is just insanely impressive to me.

When Kobe had his crazy scoring season, he did so with two and a half more attempts per game, and that Lakers team was lucky to even make the playoffs. MJ's two incredible scoring seasons in the 80s, the Bulls were a shell of the team they would become, and he was taking more shots than Harden per point scored (and taking a crap ton of free throws). Harden's essentially doing what those guys did with far greater efficiency to greater team success despite huge injury challenges.

I just don't think you're giving any weight to that level of workload or volume at all, because I think there truly are few players in the league who would be capable of producing at that level on a nightly basis if given the green light to do so.

I do give weight to his work-load, although I am far from convinced that it is a necessity or the ideal situation for them as a team. From a subjective standpoint, they look their best when CP3/Capella are engaged and the ball is moving to their 3pt shooters. With them out, I understood his priorities to pound the ball and he did an admiral job with that strategy. NOT entertaining to watch, but ultimately effective given his ability to draw contact. And again, it is that ability to draw contact/hit uncontested 15 footers that allows him to be the efficient scorer that he is. Otherwise, he is nothing brilliant of note (fantastic in ISO, but that's relative, as it is still not the most efficient play). But, that's the reality of the game right now, and he is the best at exploiting it (at least in the regular season). And to be fair, he would be making a decent amount of the baskets that he is fouled on. I don't suggest he's not a legit MVP candidate.

Going back to his work load, I do give credit to him for health + ability to do this every year in the regular season. I just can't look past the fact that once he is schemed for and goes against a tough D, he all-too-regularly leaves us with massive disappointments. And while MVP technically should not take that into account, it's tough not to. We'll see how it goes this year.


Do check out that video if you have a chance by the way. Paints both in a great light, and Ben Taylor in general puts out content that any basketball nut (especially of the forum/stat-heads who watch a ton of games variety) will love.

mightybosstone
03-25-2019, 05:21 PM
I do give weight to his work-load, although I am far from convinced that it is a necessity or the ideal situation for them as a team. From a subjective standpoint, they look their best when CP3/Capella are engaged and the ball is moving to their 3pt shooters.
Agreed completely, but those guys (really the entire team) has been so wildly inconsistent this season outside of Harden, even when they've been healthy.


With them out, I understood his priorities to pound the ball and he did an admiral job with that strategy. NOT entertaining to watch, but ultimately effective given his ability to draw contact. And again, it is that ability to draw contact/hit uncontested 15 footers that allows him to be the efficient scorer that he is. Otherwise, he is nothing brilliant of note (fantastic in ISO, but that's relative, as it is still not the most efficient play).
I really, really think you're putting way too much weight on the "Harden needs fouls to be productive" narrative. The guy goes to the line a lot. You know who else went to the line a lot? MJ and Kobe. Both guys averaged double digit FTA multiple times, including in their 35+ PPG seasons. But Harden is still vastly more efficient than them as a scorer. Take away free throws, and Harden's 53.7% eFG% this season crushes any season Kobe ever had and MJ's 37.1 season and is identical to MJ's 35-point season.

You could take away every single point Harden makes from the free throw line, and he'd still be ninth in the NBA at 26.6 points per game. About 26.9 percent of his points come from the free throw line, which seems like a high amount, but it's not even the most among stars in the league. More than 30 percent of Embiid's points come from the charity stripe, and guys like Lou Will and Gallo are around Harden in that conversation. Even Giannis shoots a ton of free throws—24.5 percent of his points come from them.


Going back to his work load, I do give credit to him for health + ability to do this every year in the regular season. I just can't look past the fact that once he is schemed for and goes against a tough D, he all-too-regularly leaves us with massive disappointments. And while MVP technically should not take that into account, it's tough not to. We'll see how it goes this year.
But you said it yourself—MVP is a regular season award, and Harden has absolutely dominated this regular season. It's easy to say "but what about the playoffs?" every year for him, but what happens if he breaks out this season and the Rockets win a ring? It could happen. People said the same thing about Jordan and Lebron for years until they got it done in the playoffs. I don't think they should have been eliminated from MVP conversations before winning a title, and neither should Harden.


Do check out that video if you have a chance by the way. Paints both in a great light, and Ben Taylor in general puts out content that any basketball nut (especially of the forum/stat-heads who watch a ton of games variety) will love.
Perhaps I will...

tredigs
03-25-2019, 06:03 PM
Agreed completely, but those guys (really the entire team) has been so wildly inconsistent this season outside of Harden, even when they've been healthy.


I really, really think you're putting way too much weight on the "Harden needs fouls to be productive" narrative. The guy goes to the line a lot. You know who else went to the line a lot? MJ and Kobe. Both guys averaged double digit FTA multiple times, including in their 35+ PPG seasons. But Harden is still vastly more efficient than them as a scorer. Take away free throws, and Harden's 53.7% eFG% this season crushes any season Kobe ever had and MJ's 37.1 season and is identical to MJ's 35-point season.

You could take away every single point Harden makes from the free throw line, and he'd still be ninth in the NBA at 26.6 points per game. About 26.9 percent of his points come from the free throw line, which seems like a high amount, but it's not even the most among stars in the league. More than 30 percent of Embiid's points come from the charity stripe, and guys like Lou Will and Gallo are around Harden in that conversation. Even Giannis shoots a ton of free throws—24.5 percent of his points come from them.


But you said it yourself—MVP is a regular season award, and Harden has absolutely dominated this regular season. It's easy to say "but what about the playoffs?" every year for him, but what happens if he breaks out this season and the Rockets win a ring? It could happen. People said the same thing about Jordan and Lebron for years until they got it done in the playoffs. I don't think they should have been eliminated from MVP conversations before winning a title, and neither should Harden.


Perhaps I will...
A lot of this ties into the video I linked. You can't compare different eras scoring efficiency apples to apples, only to their own season. Rule changes and how the game is called simply effect too much to compare them directly. And I feel like you already know this.

When you compare his 53.7% eFG% to league average, it's... fine. If we want to get into the semantics game again, it's slightly above average (just over 1% above the league mean). It's in no way/shape/form elite, that much we can agree on. It's actually slightly lower than the rest of the Rockets team as a whole.

For reference, the league average is 52.3% eFG. In '07 and '89 it was 48.9%. Current game promotes scoring more than ever.

Also worth noting again that I am especially harsh on Harden's scoring as it is the crux of his MVP campaign. Giannis scores a significant amount himself, and on far better efficiency. And, he's also an elite playmaker for his position, an incredible rebounder, and a top 5 defender in the NBA. In accomplishing that, he shouldered the Bucks to the top record/SRS in the NBA. He's the MVP.

Chronz
03-26-2019, 07:00 PM
I really hope you guys aren't just now realizing that era translations go beyond comparing raw advanced stats...

tredigs
03-26-2019, 07:25 PM
I really hope you guys aren't just now realizing that era translations go beyond comparing raw advanced stats...

What do you think?

Era translations in general can't effectively work. Ever. Taylor did not touch on half the issues, but it's a good start for beginners.

Chronz
03-26-2019, 07:42 PM
What do you think?

Era translations in general can't effectively work. Ever. Taylor did not touch on half the issues, but it's a good start for beginners.
Sure but comparing across eras is way worse today.

Chronz
03-26-2019, 11:19 PM
Well ****, anyone recall the last time 2 mvp finalists squared off this late with it being so one sided? As someone who remembers cp3 losing his to Kobe on a much closer night, I think it's settled

zn23
03-27-2019, 12:16 PM
In terms of numbers, they're both pretty much even with Giannis maybe getting a slight edge.

Where I'll give Harden the edge is that Capela missed 15 games, CP3 missed 24 games, arguably their no.2 and 3 best players. They're still a 3 seed in the West. Whereas the Bucks have been the luckiest team in the league and none of their key rotational players have missed significant time. I know Brogdon is out for 6 weeks, but that was a recent thing that happened. Up until then they had been lucky.

That would be a factor for me.

But I wouldn't complain if they gave it to Giannis.

tredigs
03-27-2019, 01:31 PM
In terms of numbers, they're both pretty much even with Giannis maybe getting a slight edge.

Where I'll give Harden the edge is that Capela missed 15 games, CP3 missed 24 games, arguably their no.2 and 3 best players. They're still a 3 seed in the West. Whereas the Bucks have been the luckiest team in the league and none of their key rotational players have missed significant time. I know Brogdon is out for 6 weeks, but that was a recent thing that happened. Up until then they had been lucky.

That would be a factor for me.

But I wouldn't complain if they gave it to Giannis.

Well they're the 4 seed, 2 games up from the Clippers. The Bucks are the NBA 1 seed, 4 games up on the Raptors, 5 on the Warriors for potential Finals home court. With an SRS nearly 2x the next closest teams. The foundation of that in having the 4th best O, and the 1st ranked D. Both anchored by Giannis.

The Bucks will also finish around 13 games above their projected win total of 48.5, with the Rockets already mathematically eliminated of their projected 56.5 (this is using closing betting totals, after all the money was in).

In short, Harden clearly has no edge even if you try to form the argument in this manner. Giannis in fact having the significant edge.

More-Than-Most
03-27-2019, 09:21 PM
Well they're the 4 seed, 2 games up from the Clippers. The Bucks are the NBA 1 seed, 4 games up on the Raptors, 5 on the Warriors for potential Finals home court. With an SRS nearly 2x the next closest teams. The foundation of that in having the 4th best O, and the 1st ranked D. Both anchored by Giannis.

The Bucks will also finish around 13 games above their projected win total of 48.5, with the Rockets already mathematically eliminated of their projected 56.5 (this is using closing betting totals, after all the money was in).

In short, Harden clearly has no edge even if you try to form the argument in this manner. Giannis in fact having the significant edge.

SO WAIT let me make sure i am understanding this... you are going by projected win totals while ignoring the fact that harden has been as good or better then giannis in a conference you have deemed tougher forever until now it seems because it fits your silly argument all while the dude has missed his 2 best players for 40 games of an 74 game season so far??????????

tredigs
03-27-2019, 09:52 PM
SO WAIT let me make sure i am understanding this... you are going by projected win totals while ignoring the fact that harden has been as good or better then giannis in a conference you have deemed tougher forever until now it seems because it fits your silly argument all while the dude has missed his 2 best players for 40 games of an 74 game season so far??????????

He hasn't been as good or better imo. Giannis has anchored the best team in the league - by far - on both ends. What "silly argument" are you going on about now? The Rockets are not even in the Bucks realm as a team, despite preseason expectations to be significantly better. Missing key players for some time? Great. Makes sense they'd be worse. Doesn't help his MVP case though. Neither does the Rockets being a SIGNIFICANTLY worse team than they were last season. This is common sense to anyone being objective. One team is drastically over-performing, the other clearly under-performing. Conference discrepancy isn't enough to help the Beard here, that's for damn sure.

zn23
03-27-2019, 09:52 PM
Well they're the 4 seed, 2 games up from the Clippers. The Bucks are the NBA 1 seed, 4 games up on the Raptors, 5 on the Warriors for potential Finals home court. With an SRS nearly 2x the next closest teams. The foundation of that in having the 4th best O, and the 1st ranked D. Both anchored by Giannis.

The Bucks will also finish around 13 games above their projected win total of 48.5, with the Rockets already mathematically eliminated of their projected 56.5 (this is using closing betting totals, after all the money was in).

In short, Harden clearly has no edge even if you try to form the argument in this manner. Giannis in fact having the significant edge.

I would argue that having a healthy team for the entire year had something to do with that as well. Also Giannis has been great, I don't want to minimize his greatness.

If Capela and CP3 don't get injured, Rockets would probably have more than 47 wins by now but then maybe Harden's numbers wouldn't be as great.

I just feel that the Bucks' success had a lot to do with health. Raps didn't have Kawhi for 20 games, Valanciunas missed 6 weeks, and Lowry missed significant time as well, yet they finished only 4 games back of the Bucks.

tredigs
03-27-2019, 09:59 PM
I would argue that having a healthy team for the entire year had something to do with that as well. Also Giannis has been great, I don't want to minimize his greatness.

If Capela and CP3 don't get injured, Rockets would probably have more than 47 wins by now but then maybe Harden's numbers wouldn't be as great.

I just feel that the Bucks' success had a lot to do with health. Raps didn't have Kawhi for 20 games, Valanciunas missed 6 weeks, and Lowry missed significant time as well, yet they finished only 4 games back of the Bucks.

That's great, they were healthier (granted, completely mired in injury right now between Mirotic, Gasol, Snell, Brogdon, Divincenco, etc). But you, nor anybody else could have predicted them as the NBA 1 seed. The vast majority did not have them as an HCA team in the East. That's the difference here. With Giannis' monster 2 way numbers while leading this unforseen juggernaut to the NBA 1 seed while leading the league in WinShares, PER, DBPM, Defensive Rating, PIPM, etc, what else do you need to see? And after Harden's last attempt against Milwaukee going south immediately for him last night, this race is over.

Jamiecballer
03-27-2019, 10:12 PM
RWB should win it againNot gonna happen when you have a teammate who is unquestionably a better player

Sent from my SM-A520W using Tapatalk

More-Than-Most
03-27-2019, 10:16 PM
He hasn't been as good or better imo. Giannis has anchored the best team in the league - by far - on both ends. What "silly argument" are you going on about now? The Rockets are not even in the Bucks realm as a team, despite preseason expectations to be significantly better. Missing key players for some time? Great. Makes sense they'd be worse. Doesn't help his MVP case though. Neither does the Rockets being a SIGNIFICANTLY worse team than they were last season. This is common sense to anyone being objective. One team is drastically over-performing, the other clearly under-performing. Conference discrepancy isn't enough to help the Beard here, that's for damn sure.

under-performing? only to morons who have issues understanding the game... there was 0 chance the rockets would keep up with last years season for several reasons.. they lost a few key defensive players in the off season... the mike D system tends to fall off as time goes on and again their 2nd and 3rd best players missed 40 games.... the bucks have been healthy all year and added several key additions to bolster their lineup

More-Than-Most
03-27-2019, 10:17 PM
Not gonna happen when you have a teammate who is unquestionably a better player

Sent from my SM-A520W using Tapatalk

which is why curry will never win another one with durant there.

tredigs
03-27-2019, 10:28 PM
under-performing? only to morons who have issues understanding the game... there was 0 chance the rockets would keep up with last years season for several reasons.. they lost a few key defensive players in the off season... the mike D system tends to fall off as time goes on and again their 2nd and 3rd best players missed 40 games.... the bucks have been healthy all year and added several key additions to bolster their lineup

Stick with me dunce. I said they're significantly worse than their last years team, but that was to be expected by me. MBT on the other hand thought they would far outpace their preseason Vegas win total. They didn't. THAT is what I said was their "under-performance".

As I told ZN, you did not think the Bucks would be the best team in the NBA, or anything close to it. Nobody did.

This race is over. Needs no further arguments.

valade16
03-28-2019, 11:45 AM
SO WAIT let me make sure i am understanding this... you are going by projected win totals while ignoring the fact that harden has been as good or better then giannis in a conference you have deemed tougher forever until now it seems because it fits your silly argument all while the dude has missed his 2 best players for 40 games of an 74 game season so far??????????

The Bucks are 19-9 vs the West, which is a 56 win pace.

mightybosstone
03-29-2019, 10:55 AM
Well ****, anyone recall the last time 2 mvp finalists squared off this late with it being so one sided? As someone who remembers cp3 losing his to Kobe on a much closer night, I think it's settled

Yeah, that loss all but handed the award to Giannis. I only caught the first half, but that was all I really needed to see. It just wasn't James' or the Rockets' night. I hate that an award that's supposed to cover 82 regular season games can swing so much to one side based on the sample size of one game, but I understand the reality of it. Looks like another second place MVP for Harden—his third. In the history of the NBA, does anyone have more second place MVP finishes than that I wonder?

The one factor that could be a wild card here is Giannis' leg injury that he suffered against LA last night. Supposedly it's not that serious, but if it's worse than he or the team let on, and he doesn't play any more games this year, is 68 games enough of a sample size to win a player an MVP? Especially when Harden's putting up historic scoring numbers, is second in the NBA in MPG and is likely to play 76-78 games this season?

valade16
03-29-2019, 12:46 PM
Yeah, that loss all but handed the award to Giannis. I only caught the first half, but that was all I really needed to see. It just wasn't James' or the Rockets' night. I hate that an award that's supposed to cover 82 regular season games can swing so much to one side based on the sample size of one game, but I understand the reality of it. Looks like another second place MVP for Harden—his third. In the history of the NBA, does anyone have more second place MVP finishes than that I wonder?

The one factor that could be a wild card here is Giannis' leg injury that he suffered against LA last night. Supposedly it's not that serious, but if it's worse than he or the team let on, and he doesn't play any more games this year, is 68 games enough of a sample size to win a player an MVP? Especially when Harden's putting up historic scoring numbers, is second in the NBA in MPG and is likely to play 76-78 games this season?

I don't think missing the rest of the season at this point is going to affect someone's MVP standings. Half the teams in the league are closing up shop and shutting players down.

I didn't watch the Mil-Hou game but from the boxscore it didn't look like Giannis put up eye popping numbers. Did he dominate or was it more just the Bucks beat the Rockets?

mightybosstone
03-29-2019, 01:00 PM
I don't think missing the rest of the season at this point is going to affect someone's MVP standings. Half the teams in the league are closing up shop and shutting players down.
Shouldn't it, though? If you miss 14 games of the regular season, that's 17 percent of the year. I remember last year I had to argue with posters who said Harden missing 10 games was too much of the year despite the Rockets having such a dominant season and such an outstanding record. If there's a case to be made for Harden missing too much time in his MVP campaign last year, I would think the same would be the case even moreso if Giannis doesn't play another minute of the regular season.

That being said, I think it will end up being a moot point. Even if Giannis does get some time to rest these last few games, he's probably not going to miss the entire rest of the season. And if he ends up in that 70-73 range, he's probably fine.


I didn't watch the Mil-Hou game but from the boxscore it didn't look like Giannis put up eye popping numbers. Did he dominate or was it more just the Bucks beat the Rockets?
Well, again, I only caught the first half, but he clearly outplayed Harden in that first half. That being said, box score wise things seemed to even out by game's end a little bit individually, but I really don't think it bodes well that the Rockets lost in such a lopsided fashion in the second half.

While I obviously disagree with the premise of one game deciding an MVP, I do think Harden and the Rockets needed to outplay Giannis and the Bucks for him to win the award. And it just didn't happen.

valade16
03-29-2019, 01:14 PM
Shouldn't it, though? If you miss 14 games of the regular season, that's 17 percent of the year. I remember last year I had to argue with posters who said Harden missing 10 games was too much of the year despite the Rockets having such a dominant season and such an outstanding record. If there's a case to be made for Harden missing too much time in his MVP campaign last year, I would think the same would be the case even moreso if Giannis doesn't play another minute of the regular season.

That being said, I think it will end up being a moot point. Even if Giannis does get some time to rest these last few games, he's probably not going to miss the entire rest of the season. And if he ends up in that 70-73 range, he's probably fine.

Well, again, I only caught the first half, but he clearly outplayed Harden in that first half. That being said, box score wise things seemed to even out by game's end a little bit individually, but I really don't think it bodes well that the Rockets lost in such a lopsided fashion in the second half.

While I obviously disagree with the premise of one game deciding an MVP, I do think Harden and the Rockets needed to outplay Giannis and the Bucks for him to win the award. And it just didn't happen.

Gobert won DPOY last year playing 56 games. I'm sure there's a cutoff where you play so few games that you shouldn't be considered. But I don't know what it is or even should be.

mightybosstone
03-29-2019, 02:11 PM
Gobert won DPOY last year playing 56 games. I'm sure there's a cutoff where you play so few games that you shouldn't be considered. But I don't know what it is or even should be.

Yeah, but DPOY and MVP are such different awards. DPOY isn't nearly as debated or discussed in the media, and every year there's probably 8-10 guys who could win the award and no one scoffs as long as one of those guys wins it.

And when it comes to the MVP award—which was started in 55-56—there's definitely something to be said for playing more games. Of the 62 award winners, only 10 played fewer than 75 games and only five played fewer than 70. Of those five, two were lockout shortened seasons and two were from when teams played only 72 games.

Walton is the only guy to win an MVP in an 82-game season who played fewer than 70 games. And Walton, Harden and Iverson are the only three players in league history to win the award who played fewer than 75 games in an 82-game season.

tredigs
03-29-2019, 02:24 PM
@Bosstone, off the top of my head Bird and Durant have at least three 2nd place finishes. Prob Wilt and Russell. Maybe a few more.

valade16
03-29-2019, 02:37 PM
Yeah, but DPOY and MVP are such different awards. DPOY isn't nearly as debated or discussed in the media, and every year there's probably 8-10 guys who could win the award and no one scoffs as long as one of those guys wins it.

And when it comes to the MVP award—which was started in 55-56—there's definitely something to be said for playing more games. Of the 62 award winners, only 10 played fewer than 75 games and only five played fewer than 70. Of those five, two were lockout shortened seasons and two were from when teams played only 72 games.

Walton is the only guy to win an MVP in an 82-game season who played fewer than 70 games. And Walton, Harden and Iverson are the only three players in league history to win the award who played fewer than 75 games in an 82-game season.

Last year Harden played 72 games. Giannis is at 69 right now. I don't think a 3 game difference is large enough for me to say that Giannis is playing a drastically lower amount of games and should be ineligible.

mightybosstone
03-29-2019, 03:36 PM
Last year Harden played 72 games. Giannis is at 69 right now. I don't think a 3 game difference is large enough for me to say that Giannis is playing a drastically lower amount of games and should be ineligible.

Right, but Harden didn't exactly have a ton of competition for MVP voting last year. Lebron finished second, and his Cavs team was lucky to win 50 games and finish 4th in the East. Harden's Rockets are going to end up with a top 3-4 seed with 53-54 wins in a much more challenging conference in the West this season, and his numbers are far more impressive than Lebron's were last season.

I'm not saying it's some huge factor, but if there's a hole in Giannis' resume, that has the potential to be it. And if I had to fight off posters arguing for Lebron to win last season when Harden played 72 games, then there's absolutely a case to be made for Harden over Giannis if Giannis ends up playing 72 or less.

valade16
03-29-2019, 04:01 PM
Right, but Harden didn't exactly have a ton of competition for MVP voting last year. Lebron finished second, and his Cavs team was lucky to win 50 games and finish 4th in the East. Harden's Rockets are going to end up with a top 3-4 seed with 53-54 wins in a much more challenging conference in the West this season, and his numbers are far more impressive than Lebron's were last season.

I'm not saying it's some huge factor, but if there's a hole in Giannis' resume, that has the potential to be it. And if I had to fight off posters arguing for Lebron to win last season when Harden played 72 games, then there's absolutely a case to be made for Harden over Giannis if Giannis ends up playing 72 or less.

Just because you had to argue against terrible arguments for Harden last year doesn't mean you should adopt those same terrible arguments for him this year.

Suppose the Rockets decided to shut down Harden for the rest of the regular season to save him for the playoffs today. Would that drop him down your list of MVP candidates because he's only played 72 games.

mightybosstone
03-29-2019, 04:23 PM
Just because you had to argue against terrible arguments for Harden last year doesn't mean you should adopt those same terrible arguments for him this year.

Suppose the Rockets decided to shut down Harden for the rest of the regular season to save him for the playoffs today. Would that drop him down your list of MVP candidates because he's only played 72 games.

I'm not saying I necessarily agree with it, just as I didn't agree with it last year. I'm just making a case based on potential holes that could be perceived by voters—fair or not.

However, I do think Giannis missing significant time for a team with the clear No. 1 seed in the East kind of points to the two areas where I think Harden's MVP candidacy has an obvious edge (aside from Harden's absurd usage and scoring numbers): ease of competition and teammate quality/health.

mightybosstone
03-29-2019, 04:30 PM
Again, though, I do not think Harden will win the MVP. Do I think he should win? Yeah, I do. But I'm biased, and I know I'm biased. It's impossible for me not to be biased when I only have time to watch maybe 1-2 NBA games per week, and I'm always going to watch a Rockets game over any matchup.

If I didn't have a rooting interest and I watched the Bucks as much as I watched Houston, maybe I would feel differently. My gut tells me I wouldn't, because I do think Harden's season has been more remarkable given the historic scoring, all the obstacles he's had to deal with, and the insanely slow start to the year. But there's something to be said for the ease with which Giannis and the Bucks have moved through the regular season this year. Frankly it reminds me a lot of Harden's MVP campaign last year.

Honestly, though, I don't know that another MVP means a lot for Harden's legacy in the long run anyway. He'd have a much bigger impact by showing up and killing it in the playoffs, beating the Warriors and making a Finals run. And I'd much rather that happen than for him to win another MVP. I know he's an MVP caliber player already, and so does the rest of the world.

More-Than-Most
03-29-2019, 05:40 PM
There is not 1 person in the NBA more valuable then Joel Embiid...

after tomorrow night the sixers will be 20-9 against the west


The sixers do not have a good record when embiid sits even with butler/harris/JJ/Ben

Since January first embiid is avg 29/14


as of 20 days ago Joel embiid on/off plus rating against notable stars of 12.8 and he is first this year


Joel Embiid: +12.8

Stephen Curry: +11.8

LeBron James: +11.5

Kevin Garnett: +11.5(only since 2000)

Chris Paul: +11.0

Draymond Green: +10.9

Dirk Nowitzki: +9.6(only since 2000)

Nikola Jokic: +8.2

Shaquille O'neal: + 7.7(only since 2000)

Tim Duncan: +7.7(only since 2000)

Rudy Gobert: +7.1

Paul George: +7.0

Jimmy Butler: +6.5

Klay Thompson: +6.4

Paul Pierce: + 6.3 (only since 2000)

Anthony Davis: +6.1

Karl Anthony Towns: +6.0

Kobe Bryant: +5.6

Russell Westbrook: +5.5

Dwayne Wade: +5.3

Kemba Walker: +5.2

James Harden: +4.9

Giannis Antetokoumpo: +4.9

Kyle Lowry: +4.8

Kevin Durant: + 4.7

Kawhi Leonard: +4.5

Ben Simmons:+3.5

Kyrie Irving: +3.5

Demarcus Cousins: +2.4

Carmelo Anthony: +2.2

mightybosstone
03-29-2019, 06:04 PM
Embiid is a phenomenal player and a worthy top 5 MVP candidate. He also doesn't belong in the same conversation with Giannis and Harden. Statistically, they're just on another level than he is at this point. Combine that with the fact that their teams are both better (have to account for Houston being in the West) and that he's missed an awful lot of the season at this point, and there's just not really a great case you could make for Embiid over either of them.

Aside from cherrypicking very specific plus-minus stats, how can you honestly justify Embiid over them? And believe me when I say I understand how easy it is to let bias seep into these conversations. It's impossible for me to get into these discussions and not lean Harden. But I also think, even with homer glasses on, you'd really have to stretch to make a case for Embiid as THE MVP this season.

More-Than-Most
03-29-2019, 06:32 PM
Embiid is a phenomenal player and a worthy top 5 MVP candidate. He also doesn't belong in the same conversation with Giannis and Harden. Statistically, they're just on another level than he is at this point. Combine that with the fact that their teams are both better (have to account for Houston being in the West) and that he's missed an awful lot of the season at this point, and there's just not really a great case you could make for Embiid over either of them.

Aside from cherrypicking very specific plus-minus stats, how can you honestly justify Embiid over them? And believe me when I say I understand how easy it is to let bias seep into these conversations. It's impossible for me to get into these discussions and not lean Harden. But I also think, even with homer glasses on, you'd really have to stretch to make a case for Embiid as THE MVP this season.

mostly because of the same reason i had lebron winning it every year and harden as the front runner this year.... Without embiid the sixers with 3 all stars are an 8th seed at best... That is how bad we look when embiid sits or misses time. I am all for advanced stats but roster construction and on off rating should be taken into account... Embiids advanced stats take a big hit because he has to play outside of his strengths to accommodate ben simmons lack of shot where is a giannis has a **** ton of shooters around him making his life as easy as possible which shows because the bucks dont go to **** when he doesnt play.

tredigs
03-29-2019, 08:08 PM
There is not 1 person in the NBA more valuable then Joel Embiid...

after tomorrow night the sixers will be 20-9 against the west


The sixers do not have a good record when embiid sits even with butler/harris/JJ/Ben

Since January first embiid is avg 29/14


as of 20 days ago Joel embiid on/off plus rating against notable stars of 12.8 and he is first this year


Joel Embiid: +12.8

Stephen Curry: +11.8

LeBron James: +11.5

Kevin Garnett: +11.5(only since 2000)

Chris Paul: +11.0

Draymond Green: +10.9

Dirk Nowitzki: +9.6(only since 2000)

Nikola Jokic: +8.2

Shaquille O'neal: + 7.7(only since 2000)

Tim Duncan: +7.7(only since 2000)

Rudy Gobert: +7.1

Paul George: +7.0

Jimmy Butler: +6.5

Klay Thompson: +6.4

Paul Pierce: + 6.3 (only since 2000)

Anthony Davis: +6.1

Karl Anthony Towns: +6.0

Kobe Bryant: +5.6

Russell Westbrook: +5.5

Dwayne Wade: +5.3

Kemba Walker: +5.2

James Harden: +4.9

Giannis Antetokoumpo: +4.9

Kyle Lowry: +4.8

Kevin Durant: + 4.7

Kawhi Leonard: +4.5

Ben Simmons:+3.5

Kyrie Irving: +3.5

Demarcus Cousins: +2.4

Carmelo Anthony: +2.2

This is a very dumb way to look at impact as it is massively effected by minutes played and who your backups are. That's why stats like RPM/PIPM exist, and you'll never find Embiid #1 there.

More-Than-Most
03-29-2019, 08:48 PM
This is a very dumb way to look at impact as it is massively effected by minutes played and who your backups are. That's why stats like RPM/PIPM exist, and you'll never find Embiid #1 there.

:laugh:

you use 900 different arguments for different players... now RPM matters right? Net on off is irrelevant even though we now have a bench and a much better starting 5... a starting 5 that has 2 of our 4 all stars on the floor everytime embiid sits by the way and yet the sixers are still only a positive when the legend is on the floor... Like I said there is no advanced stat that shows how much of an issue ben has on embiid... if embiid was able to bang inside all game he would be first in everything but WE NEED HIM OUTSIDE WITH BEN INSIDE AT TIMES which is stupid but what choice is there? I am sure embiid wishes he could be in a bucks situation where a team could just throw 900 great shooters around him making it impossible to double or triple team him like the league does because our pgs are ben simmons/TJ Mconnell who neither can shoot thus embiid loses the space... basketball 101 fella. Ban simmons is an amazing 2 way player but he lacks right now the one thing embiid needs more than anything.

Hell even being forced outside the dude is avg 28/14.... if ben was a shooter embiid would be putting up 30/18 with a much high shooting pct thus winning mvp every year.

tredigs
03-29-2019, 10:38 PM
:laugh:

you use 900 different arguments for different players... now RPM matters right? Net on off is irrelevant even though we now have a bench and a much better starting 5... a starting 5 that has 2 of our 4 all stars on the floor everytime embiid sits by the way and yet the sixers are still only a positive when the legend is on the floor... Like I said there is no advanced stat that shows how much of an issue ben has on embiid... if embiid was able to bang inside all game he would be first in everything but WE NEED HIM OUTSIDE WITH BEN INSIDE AT TIMES which is stupid but what choice is there? I am sure embiid wishes he could be in a bucks situation where a team could just throw 900 great shooters around him making it impossible to double or triple team him like the league does because our pgs are ben simmons/TJ Mconnell who neither can shoot thus embiid loses the space... basketball 101 fella. Ban simmons is an amazing 2 way player but he lacks right now the one thing embiid needs more than anything.

Hell even being forced outside the dude is avg 28/14.... if ben was a shooter embiid would be putting up 30/18 with a much high shooting pct thus winning mvp every year.
Your IQ is low. The fact that you think Embiid has a Curry like impact is embarrassing frankly. You have a lot to learn.

More-Than-Most
03-29-2019, 11:40 PM
Your IQ is low. The fact that you think Embiid has a Curry like impact is embarrassing frankly. You have a lot to learn.

um a curry like impact? No he has a far far bigger impact because he is forced to be double and triple teamed while guarding 50 percent of the half court floor on defense... curry is an insane shooter and has an insane 1 way impact.

I love how My IQ is low like you say but you ignored the one massive flaw that forces embiids hand which doesnt show up in stats or advanced stats because of your overcompensation for limiting anyone more valuable than curry. You wanna know why the sixers are first in 3 point defense?????? Basically because our players can stay up on guys and just allow people to drive at will with the beast inside. Embiids 2 way play far exceeds curry impact and if embiid had a pg that could shoot he wouldnt be forced away from the basket as much and would have much more space and guys wouldnt be able to cheat off of ben to cover him... If you wanna keep up with me learn the sport son.

tredigs
03-30-2019, 12:10 AM
You're a cute kid MTM. Good luck to the Sixers ever having a season under Embiid that rivals anything close to the heights Curry has taken the Dubs. Forgot all the stats you clearly don't understand that highlight Currys impact beyond everyone, we gotta keep it binary.

Driven
03-30-2019, 11:49 AM
Why do you all continue to argue with each other?


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Chronz
03-30-2019, 03:55 PM
Its a toss up, I think I overreacted to that Loss in Milwaukee. Man, I wouldn't be mad at who wins, the question I want answered is who takes 3rd place, PG or Embiid

tredigs
03-30-2019, 09:54 PM
Its a toss up, I think I overreacted to that Loss in Milwaukee. Man, I wouldn't be mad at who wins, the question I want answered is who takes 3rd place, PG or Embiid

What is their case over Jokic or Curry?

More-Than-Most
03-30-2019, 09:56 PM
What is their case over Jokic or Curry?

okc/sixers rely much more and demand much more from both guys. Jokic is smarter then Embiid and having a better season but he wouldnt if he was asked to do what Joel is... Again Joel is asked to be outside to accommodate Ben and asked to cover a big *** part of the floor.

tredigs
03-30-2019, 10:35 PM
okc/sixers rely much more and demand much more from both guys. Jokic is smarter then Embiid and having a better season but he wouldnt if he was asked to do what Joel is... Again Joel is asked to be outside to accommodate Ben and asked to cover a big *** part of the floor.
Lmfao. Trust me, not curious about your take.

goingfor28
03-30-2019, 10:48 PM
Wrong thread

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More-Than-Most
03-30-2019, 10:51 PM
Lmfao. Trust me, not curious about your take.

because you clearly cant defend it. I understand... Talk to me when curry is forced to bang in the post/dribble and shoot behind the arc and defend every position and be the last point of defense... curry is amazing but what Joel is asked to do is insane and if you dont think that is what hurts his plus/minus you really dont have a clue.


Imagine if Joel was just asked to play offense all game

tredigs
03-30-2019, 11:05 PM
because you clearly cant defend it. I understand... Talk to me when curry is forced to bang in the post/dribble and shoot behind the arc and defend every position and be the last point of defense... curry is amazing but what Joel is asked to do is insane and if you dont think that is what hurts his plus/minus you really dont have a clue.


Imagine if Joel was just asked to play offense all game
Talk to me when Embiid does anything close to what Curry does when it comes to elevating a team to a champion. Hint: you might be waiting forever.

More-Than-Most
03-30-2019, 11:43 PM
Talk to me when Embiid does anything close to what Curry does when it comes to elevating a team to a champion. Hint: you might be waiting forever.

not sure embiid can put aside his pride and text durant begging him to come while offering to take a back seat but we will see come this off season... I mean if it gets us a championship i pray he has the texting ability of curry too : )

you better pray we get knocked out before the finals.

tredigs
03-31-2019, 12:00 AM
not sure embiid can put aside his pride and text durant begging him to come while offering to take a back seat but we will see come this off season... I mean if it gets us a championship i pray he has the texting ability of curry too : )

you better pray we get knocked out before the finals.

You gotta get a shtick that doesn't ignore reality/events that have already occured. Curry lead teams to heights with and without Durant (and still is) that Embiid has next to no chance of reaching. That... is reality. Embiid not being a top 5 player? Also reality. And you know all of this. Stop barking child.

More-Than-Most
03-31-2019, 12:13 AM
You gotta get a shtick that doesn't ignore reality/events that have already occured. Curry lead teams to heights with and without Durant (and still is) that Embiid has next to no chance of reaching. That... is reality. Embiid not being a top 5 player? Also reality. And you know all of this. Stop barking child.

nope i just understand the sport and what he is giving up to accommodate bens lack of range which is fine but also what he is asked to do on defense.... Hell Embiid does more on defense in 1 game then curry has his entire career... also yes curry did win a title without durant but he also choked one away without him as well and curry also had one of the best teams ever both because of him and the insane talent around him... Your boy has been to like 9 finals and has won as many finals mvps as Joel embiid : )

More-Than-Most
03-31-2019, 12:14 AM
Also you are all i have left to argue with... ever since embiid put a beating on the bucks Giannis vanished :laugh:

tredigs
03-31-2019, 12:28 AM
nope i just understand the sport and what he is giving up to accommodate bens lack of range which is fine but also what he is asked to do on defense.... Hell Embiid does more on defense in 1 game then curry has his entire career... also yes curry did win a title without durant but he also choked one away without him as well and curry also had one of the best teams ever both because of him and the insane talent around him... Your boy has been to like 9 finals and has won as many finals mvps as Joel embiid : )
Nothing you say has any substance my dude. It's all in fun but, just stop.

More-Than-Most
03-31-2019, 12:33 AM
Nothing you say has any substance my dude. It's all in fun but, just stop.

so curry didnt choke up 3-1? he has finals MVPs? The warriors werent loaded before durant got there? Embiid isnt asked to do everything on defense? This is all legit substance.

More-Than-Most
03-31-2019, 03:34 AM
50/10/11


the race is over.. people need to realize this and get over the way this dude plays the game.


Do you need more??? Okay then

In Harden's last 52 games, he is averaging 40/7/7 with 2 steals per game.


I hate the way he plays the game as much as the next dude but he has stepped up on defense and has been the best offensive player in basketball this year without the help giannis has had... If this dude doesnt win it the league should be ashamed


Oh wait people will say what about the first 20 games...

He averaged 30.6/5.6/8.7/2.3/0.6 in the first 20 of the season on 61.4 TS% and 54.6 eFG%.

Oh yea that is right he cant because the rockets were suppose to win more games even though they lost their 2nd and 3rd best players for 40 of those 70 plus games.... yet they are still 3rd in the deep west and about to hit 50 wins.

goingfor28
04-01-2019, 01:51 AM
Talk to me when Embiid does anything close to what Curry does when it comes to elevating a team to a champion. Hint: you might be waiting forever.Lol he has 4 other Allstars, one being a top 2 player in the league, in the starting lineup with him. **** outta here w that nonsense.

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More-Than-Most
04-01-2019, 06:58 AM
the thing is... i dont mind he had a **** ton of help... i mind that when lebron made him his son he basically told durant he can have the keys to the kingdom and took a backseat willingly just to get past big bad daddy.... and that seems to be let go and it shouldnt... if lebron sold his soul and told durant please help me get passed the warriors this will be your team and i will take a back seat and you can have MVPs the world would end with how much people would hate yet curry got a pass.... Honestly embiid does way more and even plays where he shouldnt to help ben and would never take a back seat to anyone... its silly..... curry has never ever defended in any game in his career like embiid has... embiid literally lets his guys guard the perimeter and holds down the entire paint and beyond and it doenst show up in advanced stats nor does he being forced outside of the paint to help ben...but lets ignore that lol

valade16
04-01-2019, 12:56 PM
the thing is... i dont mind he had a **** ton of help... i mind that when lebron made him his son he basically told durant he can have the keys to the kingdom and took a backseat willingly just to get past big bad daddy.... and that seems to be let go and it shouldnt... if lebron sold his soul and told durant please help me get passed the warriors this will be your team and i will take a back seat and you can have MVPs the world would end with how much people would hate yet curry got a pass.... Honestly embiid does way more and even plays where he shouldnt to help ben and would never take a back seat to anyone... its silly..... curry has never ever defended in any game in his career like embiid has... embiid literally lets his guys guard the perimeter and holds down the entire paint and beyond and it doenst show up in advanced stats nor does he being forced outside of the paint to help ben...but lets ignore that lol

To clarify, you mean again right? Honestly, did you start watching basketball in 2016? I know history goes back a long way, but you have to go back literally a year to find a season in which Curry won a Championship and beat LeBron doing so.

He texted and called his boy KD? Cool. The 76ers GM has been trading for star level players like candy this year, guess he thinks that Simmons and Embiid weren't winning **** without a stacked team. Either way, trying to play the "he has so much talent" when Embiid is sitting on a team with Butler, Harris, Simmons and Redick is the pot calling the kettle black.

Also as an aside, why are you acting like Embiid is doing some Herculean load here? He is not doing any more than any other Top Center from history has ever been asked to do. "Oh he has to score and carry the team on offense while also guarding the paint and anchoring the defense". Boo hoo. I'm sure Dwight, Shaq, Hakeem, D-Rob, Ewing, Zo, Kareem, Wilt, Gilmore, Lanier, Reed, Moses, and countless others are crying him a river. lol

mightybosstone
04-01-2019, 02:11 PM
Saw this stat today, which I found especially interesting. No one stat should be used to vote for MVP, but if you're looking for numbers to help make your case either way, this is a pretty good stat in favor of Harden.

1112544332144435201

Chronz
04-02-2019, 04:30 PM
Saw this stat today, which I found especially interesting. No one stat should be used to vote for MVP, but if you're looking for numbers to help make your case either way, this is a pretty good stat in favor of Harden.


Yeah but so and so outranks such and such by this much so f it.

AlexDenholm
04-03-2019, 02:19 PM
Agree with all of these but do you think Westbrook should also be in consideration? While Paul George has taken most of the limelight for OKC this seasonb, RW is averaging a triple-double for the third consecutive season.

Chronz
04-03-2019, 05:37 PM
Agree with all of these but do you think Westbrook should also be in consideration? While Paul George has taken most of the limelight for OKC this seasonb, RW is averaging a triple-double for the third consecutive season.

he prolly makes all-nba 3rd team

mightybosstone
04-04-2019, 04:47 PM
Agree with all of these but do you think Westbrook should also be in consideration? While Paul George has taken most of the limelight for OKC this seasonb, RW is averaging a triple-double for the third consecutive season.

George I can understand, but Westbrook doesn't deserve to be spoken in the same breath as "MVP" this season unless they're referring to his teammate. His scoring efficiency this season has just been hot garbage.

He's only averaging 23 points on 20.3 FGA per game, and he's shooting an abysmal 28.6 percent from the 3-point line, but somehow keeps taking nearly 6 3-pointers a game. He's literally dead last in 3-point percentage among qualifying players, but he's 43rd in attempts! His PER, TS% and WS/48 are the lowest they've been since his second season in the league when he was 21.

More-Than-Most
04-05-2019, 02:29 AM
[Bucher] Among more than a dozen players asked, all but one had the race coming down to Milwaukee Bucks forward Giannis Antetokounmpo and the reigning MVP, Houston Rockets guard James Harden. Not every player made a definitive choice, but among those who did, Harden was the landslide winner.


1 guy can be great and lead his team with whomever around him and the other needs 900 shooters... MVP. It took 42 fta for giannis to go 1 and 1 against embiid and the sixers LOLOLOLOLOLOL... But YO... Mvp.

mightybosstone
04-05-2019, 10:57 AM
I was browsing the game thread last night and saw this post:


LOL Giannis had 45/13/6 + 5 blocks on a 73% TS. 0 ****ing turnovers. Took the W on the road over the Sixers (Bledsoe ejected 3rd minute of the game), clinching the best record in the NBA. I get that Harden's ability to draw fouls + hit the uncontested 15 footer is legendary, but that is your VERY-****ING-CLEAR MVP ladies and gentlemen.

Now everyone is entitled to their opinion, and I get that we all want to overreact to every great individual performance a player has last in the season to justify that player's MVP candidacy. But the idea that one performance makes Giannis the "very ****ing clear MVP" seems a little over the top to me. And I'd like to poke a few holes in this notion that this performance was otherworldly compared to Harden.

1. The idea that this statline and performance is somehow on another tier from everyone else in the league is just not true. That statline looks crazy, right? How about these statlines:
- 58/10/7 with 4 steals and a block
- 61/15/4 with 5 steals
- 51/8/7/2/2
- 50/10/11 with 2 steals
- 42/12/5 with 6 steals and 4 blocks

Those are all Harden statlines from this season, and all but one of them was in the second half of the year. Also, Giannis' game score for last night's performance was 43.6, which is admittedly amazing. But that's a number Harden has topped four times, including twice in the last two weeks. In fact, Harden has topped a 40+ game score 10 times this season. Giannis has only done that three times.

2. The notion that Harden is drawing all these fouls but Giannis is getting all his points without the benefit of call is just wildly inaccurate. The guy went to the free throw line 21 times last night!!! Harden has scored 50+ points this season an astounding nine times, and only twice in those games did he top 21 free throw attempts. On average this season, he's averaged 18.3 FTA when he's scored 50+ points. In Giannis' six games where he's topped 40 points this season (Harden did this 28 times, mind you), he's averaged 17.3 FTA. So Giannis has been every bit as dependent as James in getting to the line for big scoring performances.

3. Bledsoe was out three minutes into the game. That's a legitimate reason to give Giannis and the Bucks credit for the win. But these obstacles the Bucks have had to overcome the last few weeks and last night are things the Rockets have dealt with literally all season long. When CP3 went down agaisnt Miami on Dec. 20, the Rockets were 16-15 and staring down arguably their toughest stretch of the season.

All the Rockets did was go 12-5 with Paul out, 17 games in which Harden led the team in scoring, right in the middle of Harden's historic run of 32 straight games with 30+ points. In total, Paul has missed 24 games this season, Capela has missed 15 and Gordon has missed 14. And they're still likely to finish with a top 5 record in the league a top 3 seed in the West.

4. Finally, I'd like to point out that there really wasn't a ton of pressure on Giannis or the Bucks to win that game last night. Even if they lose, they're still two games ahead of Toronto for the No. 1 seed with only three games remaining. Meanwhile, every game the Rockets loose right now has the potential to cost them 2+ seeds in the West.

So yeah, suffice it to say that I disagree with the notion that Giannis is the "very ****ing clear MVP" based on last night's performance.

tredigs
04-05-2019, 11:24 AM
No, it's the totality of everything I have already discussed here that makes Giannis the clear MVP. Lol at scalping from a game thread post I made at the bar for your diatribe though.

Htownballa1622
04-05-2019, 11:40 AM
No, it's the totality of everything I have already discussed here that makes Giannis the clear MVP. Lol at scalping from a game thread post I made at the bar for your diatribe though.

I just find it funny that you always have to insert your thoughts on mvp like your opinion is final. Do I think Giannis will win mvp? Sure, the voters have been inconsistent before. I don't doubt they will choose Giannis. But to dumb down Harden's game into "ability to draw fouls + hit the uncontested 15 footer is legendary" is even more funny. You post like Harden stole your gf.

If there was any justice in the universe, Cp3 would have been healthy last year and Rockets ***** slap your beloved warriors. Everything balances out though. Just like in 2016(how sweet that Cavs victory was :smoking: )

P.S. Your boy Steph thinks Harden is the mvp. Guess he's another one of us misguided.

Saddletramp
04-05-2019, 11:52 AM
No, it's the totality of everything I have already discussed here that makes Giannis the clear MVP. Lol at scalping from a game thread post I made at the bar for your diatribe though.

So you’re the guy live posting from a bar. Jeez, dude, get some real life friends. Then again, if your **** attitude from your posting history carries over into the real world, good luck with that; you’ll need it.

Also, you said twice last night that the Sixers should win in part because of the Bledsoe ejection. Giannis is the “clear MVP” but you thought he needed Bledsoe to win against a Butler-less Sixers team?


One thing that sticks out about Giannis is that he was great before a coaching change, but now he’s MVP level with his new coach (Harden was MVP level before D’Antoni came along-some guys don’t need a great coach to flourish.....some do). Then again, same story with Curry so no wonder you’re riding his sac.

mightybosstone
04-05-2019, 12:47 PM
No, it's the totality of everything I have already discussed here that makes Giannis the clear MVP. Lol at scalping from a game thread post I made at the bar for your diatribe though.

You made a post in a public sports forum that (A) Gave Giannis a crazy amount of credit for one game, (B) Crapped on Harden's game and minimized the historic season he's having, and (C) Made it sound as if there's literally no debate on who the MVP should be.

So, yeah, if you post stuff like that, you should expect someone to come back at you and say "you're wrong and here's why." I don't know or care if you're posting in a bar after six drinks or from your laptop sitting in front of your TV at home. If you don't want someone to pick apart asinine posts made from bars, then don't make them in the first place. :shrug:

Edit: Also, if you want to be taken seriously, how about refuting any of the points I made? That'd be a start.

tredigs
04-05-2019, 01:35 PM
Think of games like last night as his victory laps. He doesn't need to do/show anymore, and I very clearly laid out both his case and what detracts from Harden's case in this thread already. As I've said in a prior post after 3 pages of text, I'm done arguing MVP, it's over. Giannis was a top 5 player in the game on both ends and led the BUCKS to the NBA 1 seed. It's a wrap.

mightybosstone
04-05-2019, 02:38 PM
Think of games like last night as his victory laps. He doesn't need to do/show anymore, and I very clearly laid out both his case and what detracts from Harden's case in this thread already. As I've said in a prior post after 3 pages of text, I'm done arguing MVP, it's over. Giannis was a top 5 player in the game on both ends and led the BUCKS to the NBA 1 seed. It's a wrap.

He's probably going to win the award. But the idea that this is an open and shut case or that there's no debate worth having is ludicrous. I've seen at least a dozen different articles, analysts, broadcasters, etc. in the last several weeks say they think Harden should win the award. This will not be unanimous. And ultimately just because someone wins an award doesn't mean history would look kindly upon that decision, as has been the case with many, many MVPs in the past. So much of this award is media narrative and public perception, and the idea of "Giannis should clearly be MVP" has been so rampant in the last two months, it doesn't really seem to matter that Harden is having one of the single greatest scoring seasons in NBA history. But it should.

More-Than-Most
04-05-2019, 08:23 PM
I was browsing the game thread last night and saw this post:



Now everyone is entitled to their opinion, and I get that we all want to overreact to every great individual performance a player has last in the season to justify that player's MVP candidacy. But the idea that one performance makes Giannis the "very ****ing clear MVP" seems a little over the top to me. And I'd like to poke a few holes in this notion that this performance was otherworldly compared to Harden.

1. The idea that this statline and performance is somehow on another tier from everyone else in the league is just not true. That statline looks crazy, right? How about these statlines:
- 58/10/7 with 4 steals and a block
- 61/15/4 with 5 steals
- 51/8/7/2/2
- 50/10/11 with 2 steals
- 42/12/5 with 6 steals and 4 blocks

Those are all Harden statlines from this season, and all but one of them was in the second half of the year. Also, Giannis' game score for last night's performance was 43.6, which is admittedly amazing. But that's a number Harden has topped four times, including twice in the last two weeks. In fact, Harden has topped a 40+ game score 10 times this season. Giannis has only done that three times.

2. The notion that Harden is drawing all these fouls but Giannis is getting all his points without the benefit of call is just wildly inaccurate. The guy went to the free throw line 21 times last night!!! Harden has scored 50+ points this season an astounding nine times, and only twice in those games did he top 21 free throw attempts. On average this season, he's averaged 18.3 FTA when he's scored 50+ points. In Giannis' six games where he's topped 40 points this season (Harden did this 28 times, mind you), he's averaged 17.3 FTA. So Giannis has been every bit as dependent as James in getting to the line for big scoring performances.

3. Bledsoe was out three minutes into the game. That's a legitimate reason to give Giannis and the Bucks credit for the win. But these obstacles the Bucks have had to overcome the last few weeks and last night are things the Rockets have dealt with literally all season long. When CP3 went down agaisnt Miami on Dec. 20, the Rockets were 16-15 and staring down arguably their toughest stretch of the season.

All the Rockets did was go 12-5 with Paul out, 17 games in which Harden led the team in scoring, right in the middle of Harden's historic run of 32 straight games with 30+ points. In total, Paul has missed 24 games this season, Capela has missed 15 and Gordon has missed 14. And they're still likely to finish with a top 5 record in the league a top 3 seed in the West.

4. Finally, I'd like to point out that there really wasn't a ton of pressure on Giannis or the Bucks to win that game last night. Even if they lose, they're still two games ahead of Toronto for the No. 1 seed with only three games remaining. Meanwhile, every game the Rockets loose right now has the potential to cost them 2+ seeds in the West.

So yeah, suffice it to say that I disagree with the notion that Giannis is the "very ****ing clear MVP" based on last night's performance.


No, it's the totality of everything I have already discussed here that makes Giannis the clear MVP. Lol at scalping from a game thread post I made at the bar for your diatribe though.

you just got destroyed my dude... he destroyed you with facts and that rebuttal is a bad one.

More-Than-Most
04-05-2019, 08:24 PM
I was browsing the game thread last night and saw this post:



Now everyone is entitled to their opinion, and I get that we all want to overreact to every great individual performance a player has last in the season to justify that player's MVP candidacy. But the idea that one performance makes Giannis the "very ****ing clear MVP" seems a little over the top to me. And I'd like to poke a few holes in this notion that this performance was otherworldly compared to Harden.

1. The idea that this statline and performance is somehow on another tier from everyone else in the league is just not true. That statline looks crazy, right? How about these statlines:
- 58/10/7 with 4 steals and a block
- 61/15/4 with 5 steals
- 51/8/7/2/2
- 50/10/11 with 2 steals
- 42/12/5 with 6 steals and 4 blocks

Those are all Harden statlines from this season, and all but one of them was in the second half of the year. Also, Giannis' game score for last night's performance was 43.6, which is admittedly amazing. But that's a number Harden has topped four times, including twice in the last two weeks. In fact, Harden has topped a 40+ game score 10 times this season. Giannis has only done that three times.

2. The notion that Harden is drawing all these fouls but Giannis is getting all his points without the benefit of call is just wildly inaccurate. The guy went to the free throw line 21 times last night!!! Harden has scored 50+ points this season an astounding nine times, and only twice in those games did he top 21 free throw attempts. On average this season, he's averaged 18.3 FTA when he's scored 50+ points. In Giannis' six games where he's topped 40 points this season (Harden did this 28 times, mind you), he's averaged 17.3 FTA. So Giannis has been every bit as dependent as James in getting to the line for big scoring performances.

3. Bledsoe was out three minutes into the game. That's a legitimate reason to give Giannis and the Bucks credit for the win. But these obstacles the Bucks have had to overcome the last few weeks and last night are things the Rockets have dealt with literally all season long. When CP3 went down agaisnt Miami on Dec. 20, the Rockets were 16-15 and staring down arguably their toughest stretch of the season.

All the Rockets did was go 12-5 with Paul out, 17 games in which Harden led the team in scoring, right in the middle of Harden's historic run of 32 straight games with 30+ points. In total, Paul has missed 24 games this season, Capela has missed 15 and Gordon has missed 14. And they're still likely to finish with a top 5 record in the league a top 3 seed in the West.

4. Finally, I'd like to point out that there really wasn't a ton of pressure on Giannis or the Bucks to win that game last night. Even if they lose, they're still two games ahead of Toronto for the No. 1 seed with only three games remaining. Meanwhile, every game the Rockets loose right now has the potential to cost them 2+ seeds in the West.

So yeah, suffice it to say that I disagree with the notion that Giannis is the "very ****ing clear MVP" based on last night's performance.

notice the bledsoe ejected part? but yet he bypasses cp3/cap being out for over 40 games of this season and the rockets probably getting a top 3 seed out west.

tredigs
04-05-2019, 09:57 PM
He's probably going to win the award. But the idea that this is an open and shut case or that there's no debate worth having is ludicrous. I've seen at least a dozen different articles, analysts, broadcasters, etc. in the last several weeks say they think Harden should win the award. This will not be unanimous. And ultimately just because someone wins an award doesn't mean history would look kindly upon that decision, as has been the case with many, many MVPs in the past. So much of this award is media narrative and public perception, and the idea of "Giannis should clearly be MVP" has been so rampant in the last two months, it doesn't really seem to matter that Harden is having one of the single greatest scoring seasons in NBA history. But it should.

Of course there's a debate, and I made it. I would argue I very clearly won it. You scalping game thread posts acting as if that is the end-all of my debate did not help you. Giannis is the MVP. Whether or not he actually wins I could care less.

Another side note. Is James Harden a top 3 player? Had he ever been a top 3 player? I would argue he never has been.

tredigs
04-05-2019, 10:01 PM
you just got destroyed my dude... he destroyed you with facts and that rebuttal is a bad one.

MTM. You're young and dumb. You have an agenda and jock anyone who agrees with it. You responded to nothing I posted because you lack the ability to do so. Ive laid out Giannis MVP case very clearly. And rest assure, he is the MVP.

More-Than-Most
04-05-2019, 10:03 PM
harden not being a top 3 player is relevant how? if we are using that argument then why has anyone except lebron won an mvp since he has been in the league? lebron brings more value than anyone and deserves about 10 of those awards.

durant is probably the best player in the world these past few years since the lebron decline... where is his mvps?

tredigs
04-05-2019, 10:18 PM
harden not being a top 3 player is relevant how? if we are using that argument then why has anyone except lebron won an mvp since he has been in the league? lebron brings more value than anyone and deserves about 10 of those awards.

durant is probably the best player in the world these past few years since the lebron decline... where is his mvps?
If everyone was as dumb and impressionable by the NIKE stars as you, I'm sure he would buddy. Fortunately, more and more people who vote actually understand the game.

And it matters because unless you're a top player, you don't get back to back MVPs.

To be clear, we're talking about the Lebron who missed the playoffs this year in his first venture out West, correct?

More-Than-Most
04-05-2019, 10:34 PM
If everyone was as dumb and impressionable by the NIKE stars as you, I'm sure he would buddy. Fortunately, more and more people who vote actually understand the game.

And it matters because unless you're a top player, you don't get back to back MVPs.

To be clear, we're talking about the Lebron who missed the playoffs this year in his first venture out West, correct?

harden is better these past 2 years then the 2 years curry won his mvp with all the help he had compared to what harden has had yet you consider him great... curry didnt even deserve one of the 2 mvp because that should have gone to james as well :shrug:

tredigs
04-05-2019, 10:41 PM
harden is better these past 2 years then the 2 years curry won his mvp with all the help he had compared to what harden has had yet you consider him great... curry didnt even deserve one of the 2 mvp because that should have gone to james as well :shrug:
Buddy, stop. You are clueless. I won't engage with. You truly don't deserve it as a common troll.

zn23
04-05-2019, 10:45 PM
That game against the Sixers by Giannis was absolutely sensational. I guess you could say it gave him the lead?

This is definitely one of the more closely contested MVP races since Steve Nash and Shaq back in 2005.

mightybosstone
04-05-2019, 11:37 PM
Of course there's a debate, and I made it. I would argue I very clearly won it.
:rolleyes: God, you're an arrogant sack of ****. I'm guessing your parents gave you a lot of "participant" ribbons when you were a kid.


Another side note. Is James Harden a top 3 player? Had he ever been a top 3 player? I would argue he never has been.
At the end of this season he'll have four top 2 MVP finishes. So, yeah. That's kind of common sense.

tredigs
04-05-2019, 11:53 PM
:rolleyes: God, you're an arrogant sack of ****. I'm guessing your parents gave you a lot of "participant" ribbons when you were a kid.


At the end of this season he'll have four top 2 MVP finishes. So, yeah. That's kind of common sense.

:laugh: I'm guessing you're a middle aged writer for a dying newspaper nobody cares about.

Rest assure, I am far more accomplished athletically than you dreamt of. How did you pay for university?

As far as the actual topic at hand, no, it is far from common sense that Harden has ever been considered an actual top 3 player. Don't confuse MVP voting for league standing. Nobody is taking Harden over Curry or Durant. And I think Giannis jumped Lebron for the other top 3 slot this season. Harden is there with the Anthony Davis crew. Outside looking in..

mightybosstone
04-06-2019, 12:45 AM
:laugh: I'm guessing you're a middle aged writer for a dying newspaper nobody cares about.
:laugh: It's both hilarious and pathetic how quickly you get personal. You have no clue how to have a civil conversation or playful banter without jumping from 1-100 and getting your Steph Curry underoos in a knot. For the record, I actually manage several publications for one of the fastest growing media companies in the country. (Also, since when was 31 considered "middle-aged?" :confused:)


Rest assure, I am far more accomplished athletically than you dreamt of. How did you pay for university?
Why do I care? I knew when I was like 10 years old that I was never going to be athletic, so playing sports at really any level outside of just having fun with friends was never a "dream" of mine. If that's how you judge yourself against others, you may want to consider first whether that's something they even value. :shrug:


As far as the actual topic at hand, no, it is far from common sense that Harden has ever been considered an actual top 3 player. Don't confuse MVP voting for league standing. Nobody is taking Harden over Curry or Durant. And I think Giannis jumped Lebron for the other top 3 slot this season. Harden is there with the Anthony Davis crew. Outside looking in..
Based on that logic, there are a ton of all-time greats who were never really "top 3 players." But statistically, he was absolutely a top 3 player in the league numerous seasons. And I think you'd be hard-pressed right now that he's not a top 3 player in the league (but no doubt you'll use some mental gymnastics to try and prove otherwise.)

But more importantly, what does this have to do with the argument at hand whatsoever? Didn't you accuse me of making a strawman argument a few pages back? This pretty much epitomizes the strawman argument. If you want to talk MVP, I'm good. If you want to argue the semantics of whether or not Harden may or may not generally have been considered a top 3 player in the league, I'm not interested. That must be an argument you had with someone else.

More-Than-Most
04-06-2019, 02:42 AM
:laugh:

and this is why the NBA area is best area. THROW DOWN BOYS

cmellofan15
04-06-2019, 08:29 AM
Rest assure, I am far more accomplished athletically than you dreamt of. How did you pay for university?


LMAO, the resident nerd going on about his athletic accomplishments is truly icing on the cake of this NBA season :laugh2:

tredigs
04-06-2019, 08:58 AM
LMAO, the resident nerd going on about his athletic accomplishments is truly icing on the cake of this NBA season :laugh2:

Not sure who you are, but MBT - who has admitted to not having an athletic bone in his body - trying to call me out as a participation trophy baby was the icing for me. I wasn't about to let that slide without a dose of reality for him.

As far as Harden goes MBT, it matters because you can't just continue to.give out MVP's to a guy who is not the top of the game, or at least can be argued as the top of the game. He fails too consistently when it matters, and like it or not, that matters. Beyond that, Giannis simply has a better case then him. This was true 20 games into the season, and it is true 80 games into the seaaon.

That said, I am well aware it will be close and he could win (though I doubt it). There is nothing voters love more than big point totals. But to me, I'm here for giving it to the guy having a clear cut MVP season by all historical metrics/reasoning, and who might actually be the MVP. Not the guy who we know for a fact is not.

Chronz
04-06-2019, 02:49 PM
Heard this on a BS pod, if Harden happens to fail on a Dirk level (Dubs fiasco), I cant see anyone ever voting for Harden regardless of what he does from here on out. Doesn't matter to the race this year but I thought it was an interesting tidbit.

tredigs
04-07-2019, 11:49 AM
Seems fitting for this thread:

1114262920081420289

:laugh:

LeonFSU
04-08-2019, 01:27 PM
That game against the Sixers by Giannis was absolutely sensational. I guess you could say it gave him the lead?

This is definitely one of the more closely contested MVP races since Steve Nash and Shaq back in 2005.

The voting in 2005 was close, but Shaq should've won that one and it probably shouldn't have been that close.

mightybosstone
04-08-2019, 01:49 PM
For what it's worth, the Athletic polled 127 players for an article and 122 voted on MVP. Here were the results:

James Harden (44.3%)
Giannis Antetokounmpo (38.9%)
Paul George (12.7%)
Joel Embiid (1.7%)
Kyrie Irving, Damian Lillard, Kawhi Leonard (1%)

I don't think he's going to win MVP, but I think the opinion of the players speaks volumes in terms of the season James is having and his candidacy for the award. Also, somewhat related, but it's a little absurd that NBA players don't get a vote in this, but some people who have no business getting a vote (I'm looking at you Michelle Beadle) do. Many journalists who vote are seasoned NBA writers and analysts whose opinions I respect, but there are a few too many casual NBA "analysts" who get to vote, and I think it diminishes the credibility of the award a bit.

Rivera
04-08-2019, 01:58 PM
i feel like Giannis won the MVP. The media is on his side and is pushing his narrative case. I am really starting to believe this is locked up for Giannis.

Hard not to give it to Harden after this sensational season, im not 100% sure its right, but its been a crazy fun debate

Chronz
04-08-2019, 04:04 PM
The voting in 2005 was close, but Shaq should've won that one and it probably shouldn't have been that close.

Shaq should've won over Nash but in reality, Duncan should have won over both. Its a narrative award sometimes

tredigs
04-08-2019, 04:24 PM
For what it's worth, the Athletic polled 127 players for an article and 122 voted on MVP. Here were the results:

James Harden (44.3%)
Giannis Antetokounmpo (38.9%)
Paul George (12.7%)
Joel Embiid (1.7%)
Kyrie Irving, Damian Lillard, Kawhi Leonard (1%)

I don't think he's going to win MVP, but I think the opinion of the players speaks volumes in terms of the season James is having and his candidacy for the award. Also, somewhat related, but it's a little absurd that NBA players don't get a vote in this, but some people who have no business getting a vote (I'm looking at you Michelle Beadle) do. Many journalists who vote are seasoned NBA writers and analysts whose opinions I respect, but there are a few too many casual NBA "analysts" who get to vote, and I think it diminishes the credibility of the award a bit.

Iverson and Kobe would each have 5 MVP's if players were the voters. Giannis is an outsider. He is also the legitimate MVP.

Chronz
04-08-2019, 05:36 PM
Iverson and Kobe would each have 5 MVP's if players were the voters. Giannis is an outsider. He is also the legitimate MVP.

Yeah I've heard other players dont see him as one their own as much. Must be the white mans doing but xenophobia exists within a few of the black ranks.

More-Than-Most
04-08-2019, 08:54 PM
harden will win or it will be robbery.

the award is mvp and not player who needs the most around him to bring value. Change the award to PWNTMAHTBV and i will have 0 gripes.

kdspurman
04-09-2019, 10:44 AM
harden will win or it will be robbery.

the award is mvp and not player who needs the most around him to bring value. Change the award to PWNTMAHTBV and i will have 0 gripes.

that's a stretch lol

mightybosstone
04-09-2019, 11:31 AM
Iverson and Kobe would each have 5 MVP's if players were the voters. Giannis is an outsider. He is also the legitimate MVP.

I don't think it should be a players only award. But it seems reasonable to me that players should account for a portion of the vote, similar to the All-Star voting almost. GMs ought to be able to vote as well. They could even add in requirements that you couldn't vote for a player on your team, for example.

What if the award was like half journalists and analysts and half players and GMs? I think that balance would be interesting, and it would put more weight on the production and performance on the floor and less on the media narrative.

Htownballa1622
04-09-2019, 11:55 AM
1115478288762273797

Guys...these are mvp moves. Get with it. 2019. Run straight into defender and go to line. Can't wait to see how this is officiated in playoffs since "whistles change."

mightybosstone
04-09-2019, 02:27 PM
1115478288762273797

Guys...these are mvp moves. Get with it. 2019. Run straight into defender and go to line. Can't wait to see how this is officiated in playoffs since "whistles change."

You want to see some fun stats for all the Harden haters who rip on him for going to the line too often and being too reliant on the free throw line for his production? Harden and Giannis average 10.7 and 10.5 FTAs per 36 minutes this season, respectively. Of Harden's total point production this season, 26.6% comes from the free throw line compared to 25% for Giannis.

Apparently that extra 0.2 free throw attempts and 1.6% of point production is what separates Giannis from Harden in terms of their reliance on the free throw. (Note: If Giannis shot what Harden did from the free throw line, He'd be averaging an extra point and a half per game, but nearly 29 percent of his points would come from the charity stripe.)

kdspurman
04-09-2019, 02:57 PM
You want to see some fun stats for all the Harden haters who rip on him for going to the line too often and being too reliant on the free throw line for his production? Harden and Giannis average 10.7 and 10.5 FTAs per 36 minutes this season, respectively. Of Harden's total point production this season, 26.6% comes from the free throw line compared to 25% for Giannis.

Apparently that extra 0.2 free throw attempts and 1.6% of point production is what separates Giannis from Harden in terms of their reliance on the free throw. (Note: If Giannis shot what Harden did from the free throw line, He'd be averaging an extra point and a half per game, but nearly 29 percent of his points would come from the charity stripe.)

It's ok for fans to not be a fan some of the ways Harden gets to the line, tho from Harden's perspective, it's obviously a smart tactic to score/get opponents in foul trouble.

Regarding their similar FT attempts, I'd imagine Giannis has that many cause he basically lives in the paint, or not terribly far from it. So there's far more opportunity to get contact in the paint. Harden shoots almost as many 3's per game (13.2) as Giannis does 2's (14.5)

mightybosstone
04-09-2019, 03:05 PM
It's ok for fans to not be a fan some of the ways Harden gets to the line, tho from Harden's perspective, it's obviously a smart tactic to score/get opponents in foul trouble.

Regarding their similar FT attempts, I'd imagine Giannis has that many cause he basically lives in the paint, or not terribly far from it. So there's far more opportunity to get contact in the paint. Harden shoots almost as many 3's per game (13.2) as Giannis does 2's (14.5)

But it's not like the fouls Harden draws from beyond the 3-point line are any less valid than the ones Giannis gets around the rim. Does Harden get some phantom calls? Sure, but so does every player. But that stepback generates a lot of instances where guys jump forward into his landing space and/or make contact with his hands/arms as they reach to contest. I'm not seeing a ton of instances where Harden is just falling down and getting the call on those shots. If anything, I think refs tend to let a lot of that contact go because he draws so many fouls on that shot.

Htownballa1622
04-09-2019, 03:15 PM
Like I mentioned before, I'd like to see how the battering ram attack Giannis uses works in the playoffs.

Chronz
04-09-2019, 03:28 PM
But it's not like the fouls Harden draws from beyond the 3-point line are any less valid than the ones Giannis gets around the rim. Does Harden get some phantom calls? Sure, but so does every player. But that stepback generates a lot of instances where guys jump forward into his landing space and/or make contact with his hands/arms as they reach to contest. I'm not seeing a ton of instances where Harden is just falling down and getting the call on those shots. If anything, I think refs tend to let a lot of that contact go because he draws so many fouls on that shot.

Yes they are, dude gets more BS calls than the guy who lives in the paint.

mightybosstone
04-09-2019, 04:00 PM
Yes they are, dude gets more BS calls than the guy who lives in the paint.

And you have data to support this? Didn't you claim earlier in the season that you don't even watch NBA games anymore, and yet you're somehow qualified as an expert regarding who is getting more beneficial calls? Where's your evidence?

More-Than-Most
04-09-2019, 09:45 PM
It's ok for fans to not be a fan some of the ways Harden gets to the line, tho from Harden's perspective, it's obviously a smart tactic to score/get opponents in foul trouble.

Regarding their similar FT attempts, I'd imagine Giannis has that many cause he basically lives in the paint, or not terribly far from it. So there's far more opportunity to get contact in the paint. Harden shoots almost as many 3's per game (13.2) as Giannis does 2's (14.5)

the last 2 games he has played us he had just ran into our players out of control and were awarded free throws.... that is worse then what harden does... 42 free throws in 2 games and they could only win 1 of those 2.

Chronz
04-10-2019, 02:18 PM
And you have data to support this? Didn't you claim earlier in the season that you don't even watch NBA games anymore, and yet you're somehow qualified as an expert regarding who is getting more beneficial calls? Where's your evidence?

Thats what makes it so sad, I dont even watch much anymore yet every time I tune into a Rox game I see him getting the BS more than any other player I rarely watch, I really dont think thats a coincidence. I still talk to other Rox fans and I dont see how hes not EASILY the most recognizable beneficiary of some suspect calls in the league. You want an exact number but Im not here to do that, Im giving you my opinion, to what degree he benefits I couldn't give 2 ****s to research.

Quite frankly the biggest elevation in Hardens game has been his floater, now he has something he can utilize when the wall/traps arise. His step back 3 is obviously, finally honed to perfection(this after years of reading about how he has to cut those out of his arsenal) but I cant help but think of how much of that boost was from how defenders are being forced to drastically change their close outs, then theres some talk about the legality of some of those step backs, dont have to watch much of the game to know that when you got guys like Pop referencing it lol. Dude, this game is just far different than what it once was that at this point, even if I had all the data, it would still take more basketball to ever find consistent trends. I'll have that report for you in 5 years.

Scoots
04-10-2019, 02:56 PM
I think it's likely to be Giannis.

dhopisthename
04-10-2019, 02:59 PM
I think it's likely to be Giannis.

based on very early results it sure looks like it.

tredigs
04-10-2019, 04:05 PM
I think it's likely to be Giannis.

It was already looking like a near but clear lock going into the last week of the season. Houston blowing the big lead with Harden choking down the stretch with the missed FT and last second open look (in what will likely lose them 2 slots in the standings) simply put the nail in the coffin.

I think PG will lock in that All NBA 1st Team for most on the edge with that finish as well.

kdspurman
04-10-2019, 04:16 PM
the last 2 games he has played us he had just ran into our players out of control and were awarded free throws.... that is worse then what harden does... 42 free throws in 2 games and they could only win 1 of those 2.

I only caught some of 1/2 games lol. I was just pointing out why Giannis gets to the line as much as Harden does. He gets there mostly as a driver/finishing in the paint.

Giannis94
04-11-2019, 02:12 PM
Cast your MVP vote.

After watching Joel Odeen Embiid dominate Giannis a few weeks ago I think it's a foregone conclusion that Embiid wins MVP. He straight up dominated Giannis, while also getting dominated in dodgeball vs. our short pg. His performance vs. Giannis can be seen below. But he simply put Giannis in his place. We saw who Giannis really is on offense and defense. Not only did he dominate Giannis, but he got shut down by da bucks big stiffz Brooks lopez. And his star teammate that everyone is annoinint a godsend- Ben simmons? He hasn't helped much. Same with Jimmy and Tboias. ONE MAN TEAM DOminated giannis & da bucks.

Harden? Stat stuffer. No mvp votes for you. One Man race. Joel Embiid is my MVP
See below.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10RrQd2Aafg&feature=youtu.be

Take your views, PSD. You need me more than I need you.

zn23
04-11-2019, 02:31 PM
I've been on the fence all year, but I have to now go with Giannis. Harden was great, but that loss to the Thunder is going to hurt him unfortunately. Because had he made those FTs at the end they go into OT and who knows what happens. The Rockets went from 2 to 4.

prodigy
04-11-2019, 02:44 PM
Greak freak for sure.

1. He's a better passer and much better FG %
2. Embiids missed 18 games.
3. Hardens a ball hog

Giannis94
04-11-2019, 02:51 PM
Greak freak for sure.

1. He's a better passer and much better FG %
2. Embiids missed 18 games.
3. Hardens a ball hog

But embiid dominated giannis the meeting the Bucks clinched best record in the east...

Scoots
04-11-2019, 04:10 PM
Cast your MVP vote.

After watching Joel Odeen Embiid dominate Giannis a few weeks ago I think it's a foregone conclusion that Embiid wins MVP. He straight up dominated Giannis, while also getting dominated in dodgeball vs. our short pg. His performance vs. Giannis can be seen below. But he simply put Giannis in his place. We saw who Giannis really is on offense and defense. Not only did he dominate Giannis, but he got shut down by da bucks big stiffz Brooks lopez. And his star teammate that everyone is annoinint a godsend- Ben simmons? He hasn't helped much. Same with Jimmy and Tboias. ONE MAN TEAM DOminated giannis & da bucks.

Harden? Stat stuffer. No mvp votes for you. One Man race. Joel Embiid is my MVP
See below.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10RrQd2Aafg&feature=youtu.be

Take your views, PSD. You need me more than I need you.

Easier to cast a vote when there is a poll on the post.

Giannis.

tredigs
04-11-2019, 09:34 PM
Early returns of those who have made their vote public are in and it is Giannis in a landslide (20-2). Harden's top priority falls short. Better luck next year. But now Steph is likely the favorite again.

prodigy
04-12-2019, 08:36 AM
But embiid dominated giannis the meeting the Bucks clinched best record in the east...

so? one or even 2 games don't mean anything unless its game 7 of the finals lol. Greek has been insane the whole year. and a major reason the Bucks are where they are. Plus I think he's a better person to rep the league. Thats not a big consideration of course when it comes to MVP. But it should be mentioned. Embiid is a giant baby.

Htownballa1622
04-12-2019, 09:14 AM
Early returns of those who have made their vote public are in and it is Giannis in a landslide (20-2). Harden's top priority falls short. Better luck next year. But now Steph is likely the favorite again.

Moronic statement.

Giannis94
04-16-2019, 01:31 PM
so? one or even 2 games don't mean anything unless its game 7 of the finals lol. Greek has been insane the whole year. and a major reason the Bucks are where they are. Plus I think he's a better person to rep the league. Thats not a big consideration of course when it comes to MVP. But it should be mentioned. Embiid is a giant baby.

I was being sarcastic. Anyone who wathched Embiid vs. Giannis that game saw why Giannis is the far superior player and it's not remotely close. It's like comparing James Harden to Montee Ellis because both shoot a **** ton