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buckalis
01-10-2019, 08:19 PM
My takes:

1. Giannis Antetokounmpo
2. James Harden
3. Lebron James
4. Kevin Durant
5. Antony Davis

1. Giannis because everybody says he is a phenomenon that can play better than other bigs, move better than the best of wings and playmake better than the best of guards.

2. Harden because he is unguardable and is the best in "reading the game".

3. Lebron because he is the inventor of non positional basketball.

4. KD because he is the most effective player in the league.

5. AD because he is the best alternative to Giannis in the paint.

JAZZNC
01-10-2019, 08:24 PM
I just can't get on board with Davis as a top 5 player if his team is at the bottom of the conference. He just doesn't win. That has to mean something.

tredigs
01-10-2019, 08:33 PM
My takes:

1. Giannis Antetokounmpo
2. James Harden
3. Lebron James
4. Kevin Durant
5. Antony Davis

1. Giannis because everybody says he is a phenomenon that can play better than other bigs, move better than the best of wings and playmake better than the best of guards.

2. Harden because he is unguardable and is the best in "reading the game".

3. Lebron because he is the inventor of non positional basketball.

4. KD because he is the most effective player in the league.

5. AD because he is the best alternative to Giannis in the paint.

Elite reasoning. Would read again.

FlashBolt
01-10-2019, 08:40 PM
1) LeBron - Until proven otherwise and he gets vastly outplayed in the playoffs, there isn't any indication he isn't the best still.

2) Kevin Durant - Probably still the best scorer in the league and has been unstoppable in the playoffs.

3) Giannis Antetokounmpo - Need to see more in the playoffs but this guy is just unreal. The ability to help his team win games while taking few shots proves he is a versatile player who can do it all. Great defense, insane length, and dominates games without shooting.

4) James Harden - Have to put Harden here even though I dislike his playoffs performances. Playoffs excluded, probably the best scorer in the NBA. Not a huge fan of his proficient ability to gain foul calls but can't deny that he's incredibly skilled.

5) Curry - Best shooter in the league. His absence proved that the Warriors are a vastly superior team when he plays and is healthy. Had to bump him a few spots because of how well the others are playing but he's going to be top five as long as his shooting is that good.

Others:

6) Kawhi - Would like to put him top five but his team has been very good without him (8-2 record) so I'm not sure how to evaluate his overall impact until the playoffs when he will undoubtedly have to lead them.

7) Embiid - Missed only two games so far, shoots FT's very well for a center, dominating the game offensively and defensively, top rebounder in the league, and the best center in the game.

8) AD - Disappointed by the Pelicans as a team overall and not liking the fact AD seems to put up amazing stats but his team can't get above .500. Might be a case of stat-stuffing so I have to penalize him for that. Needs to start winning. Mavs aren't a very good overall team either and they are just a game or two behind Pelicans.

9) Paul George - I said he was better than Jimmy Butler and you guys said no way.. Easily a top ten player this season and IMO, a candidate for MVP. Our best defender, scorer, and player.

10) Jokic - Could dominate the game in various ways. Rebounds well, passes like an elite player, doesn't have to score the ball to have an impact. Also leading his team to the best record in the West - something I don't think was expected at all. Would not mind putting Kyrie or Lillard here either.

FlashBolt
01-10-2019, 08:41 PM
I just can't get on board with Davis as a top 5 player if his team is at the bottom of the conference. He just doesn't win. That has to mean something.

Agreed. As much as we hear about his amazing stats and ability as a player, I can't fathom how Doncic is leading an inferior team to a similar record. At some point, this has to be an Anthony Davis problem and I think we're nearing that. I could see him having a huge impact on any other team but his inability as a 1st option thus far has been a problem for me.

JAZZNC
01-10-2019, 09:00 PM
Agreed. As much as we hear about his amazing stats and ability as a player, I can't fathom how Doncic is leading an inferior team to a similar record. At some point, this has to be an Anthony Davis problem and I think we're nearing that. I could see him having a huge impact on any other team but his inability as a 1st option thus far has been a problem for me.

Jokic has a joke of a team to work with and they are absolutely killing it. Is Utah really more talented? If AD is a top 5 player they are absolutely not. At this point AD is a taller, more athletic Kevin Love until proven otherwise.

More-Than-Most
01-10-2019, 09:09 PM
Lebron- His defense has fallen off but he is still lebron

Durant- Besides a healthy KL this dude is probably the best 2 way player in the game that could carry anybody

Harden- An offensive unstoppable force

Giannis- His shooting is his weakness but he can do everything else and doesnt hurt his team

Jokic/Embiid/Curry/KL/AD all could have the number 5 spot... of these 4 only one of them would get exposed on a bad team with a lack of talent around them in curry but his offensive game is so special that it can lift any team to a playoff contender/title contender. The other 4 guys are much better 2 way players.

More-Than-Most
01-10-2019, 09:10 PM
Agreed. As much as we hear about his amazing stats and ability as a player, I can't fathom how Doncic is leading an inferior team to a similar record. At some point, this has to be an Anthony Davis problem and I think we're nearing that. I could see him having a huge impact on any other team but his inability as a 1st option thus far has been a problem for me.

I am starting to feel like he is similar to curry really... he will never be able to carry a bad team but if he has the talent around him could make a good or great team legendary. I just cant figure out how an AD team doesnt win considering what he does and how he does it.

FlashBolt
01-10-2019, 09:15 PM
Jokic has a joke of a team to work with and they are absolutely killing it. Is Utah really more talented? If AD is a top 5 player they are absolutely not. At this point AD is a taller, more athletic Kevin Love until proven otherwise.

Pelicans coach sucks and their management/environment around the team is just garbage. I decided to take a look at the roster again and yikes, it's actually very bad. Outside of their starting lineup, they have nothing from the bench. I'd like to see it's mostly AD's fault but really, the team is just really bad. Yes, I think Nuggets and Utah have better rosters. Would I take Jokic over AD? Not a chance. This is clearly a bad roster and AD isn't a 1st option type player. He'd be better as a 2nd option type player.

FlashBolt
01-10-2019, 09:16 PM
I am starting to feel like he is similar to curry really... he will never be able to carry a bad team but if he has the talent around him could make a good or great team legendary. I just cant figure out how an AD team doesnt win considering what he does and how he does it.

Warriors sucked before Curry was given the reign so this is definitely not even remotely the same discussion. Curry can and has carried a bad team before. It's not his fault he's got a good team considering he's been there from the start.

More-Than-Most
01-10-2019, 10:36 PM
Warriors sucked before Curry was given the reign so this is definitely not even remotely the same discussion. Curry can and has carried a bad team before. It's not his fault he's got a good team considering he's been there from the start.

warriors sucked the season before curry but the 2 seasons before that season they were above 500... curry first 3 seasons in basketball the warriors were 85-145... the season they drafted draymond and klay is when the warriors started winning. Its always fun when you never look at things like this before posting. The spacing that klay gave to curry in his first 2 seasons as a 3 point shooter was exactly what curry needed... followed by draymond always being insane defensively.

FlashBolt
01-10-2019, 10:53 PM
warriors sucked the season before curry but the 2 seasons before that season they were above 500... curry first 3 seasons in basketball the warriors were 85-145... the season they drafted draymond and klay is when the warriors started winning. Its always fun when you never look at things like this before posting. The spacing that klay gave to curry in his first 2 seasons as a 3 point shooter was exactly what curry needed... followed by draymond always being insane defensively.

Lol, did you pay attention to what I said? "Before Curry was given the reign." Why are you so mad, anyways? Learn to read first before you claim I should. You act as if you're superior when you're always looked at as the joker around here. I said BEFORE CURRY WAS GIVEN THE REIGN. Monta was a ballhogger who scored the ball and Curry wasn't even given the same opportunities because of that. Notice how as soon as they got rid of Monta and Curry took over, they became a playoff team.. Way to reveal you can't read, though.

mightybosstone
01-10-2019, 11:36 PM
1) LeBron - Until proven otherwise and he gets vastly outplayed in the playoffs, there isn't any indication he isn't the best still.

2) Kevin Durant - Probably still the best scorer in the league and has been unstoppable in the playoffs.

3) Giannis Antetokounmpo - Need to see more in the playoffs but this guy is just unreal. The ability to help his team win games while taking few shots proves he is a versatile player who can do it all. Great defense, insane length, and dominates games without shooting.

4) James Harden - Have to put Harden here even though I dislike his playoffs performances. Playoffs excluded, probably the best scorer in the NBA. Not a huge fan of his proficient ability to gain foul calls but can't deny that he's incredibly skilled.

5) Curry - Best shooter in the league. His absence proved that the Warriors are a vastly superior team when he plays and is healthy. Had to bump him a few spots because of how well the others are playing but he's going to be top five as long as his shooting is that good.

Others:

6) Kawhi - Would like to put him top five but his team has been very good without him (8-2 record) so I'm not sure how to evaluate his overall impact until the playoffs when he will undoubtedly have to lead them.

7) Embiid - Missed only two games so far, shoots FT's very well for a center, dominating the game offensively and defensively, top rebounder in the league, and the best center in the game.

8) AD - Disappointed by the Pelicans as a team overall and not liking the fact AD seems to put up amazing stats but his team can't get above .500. Might be a case of stat-stuffing so I have to penalize him for that. Needs to start winning. Mavs aren't a very good overall team either and they are just a game or two behind Pelicans.

9) Paul George - I said he was better than Jimmy Butler and you guys said no way.. Easily a top ten player this season and IMO, a candidate for MVP. Our best defender, scorer, and player.

10) Jokic - Could dominate the game in various ways. Rebounds well, passes like an elite player, doesn't have to score the ball to have an impact. Also leading his team to the best record in the West - something I don't think was expected at all. Would not mind putting Kyrie or Lillard here either.

This would probably be my top 10 this season as well, but my order would be more like:
1. Lebron James
2. James Harden
3. Kevin Durant
4. Stephen Curry
5. Giannis Antetokounmpo
6. Kawhi Leonard
7. Anthony Davis
8. Paul George
9. Joel Embiid
10. Nikola Jokic

The only thing I debated was swapping out Jokic for Kyrie. I love Jokic as a player and am fascinated by his game, but Kyrie's big-game scoring is hard to pass up for a jack-of-all-trades guy like Jokic. Ultimately, given Denver's success this season, I think he's deserving on this list right now.

More-Than-Most
01-11-2019, 12:49 AM
Lol, did you pay attention to what I said? "Before Curry was given the reign." Why are you so mad, anyways? Learn to read first before you claim I should. You act as if you're superior when you're always looked at as the joker around here. I said BEFORE CURRY WAS GIVEN THE REIGN. Monta was a ballhogger who scored the ball and Curry wasn't even given the same opportunities because of that. Notice how as soon as they got rid of Monta and Curry took over, they became a playoff team.. Way to reveal you can't read, though.

edit-deleted.. Rather not get in trouble lol. Lol dont be mad because you lost the argument before it even began.

mgjohnson7851
01-11-2019, 01:07 AM
Jokic has a joke of a team to work with and they are absolutely killing it. Is Utah really more talented? If AD is a top 5 player they are absolutely not. At this point AD is a taller, more athletic Kevin Love until proven otherwise.Are you saying that Jokic has a joke of a team because of the injuries or just in general? Because if it's the latter, I have to disagree.

DanG
01-11-2019, 07:40 AM
LeBron
KD
Giannis
Curry
Harden

warfelg
01-11-2019, 09:32 AM
Are you saying that Jokic has a joke of a team because of the injuries or just in general? Because if it's the latter, I have to disagree.

I'm confused by this too. You guys are a talented team. But I will add: No Paul Milsap is helping.

Rivera
01-11-2019, 10:10 AM
Agreed. As much as we hear about his amazing stats and ability as a player, I can't fathom how Doncic is leading an inferior team to a similar record. At some point, this has to be an Anthony Davis problem and I think we're nearing that. I could see him having a huge impact on any other team but his inability as a 1st option thus far has been a problem for me.

i was beating a dead horse this off season about how overrated the board had the Pels. They overachieved last year and people got tricked into thinking they were better with Demarcus because it was a matchup nightmare for the Blazers, add that to the fact they had playoff rondo controlling everything.

Hard to be good with that squad that got a little worse.

Front court is awesome. Davis/Randle . Awesome love them.

But for the most part its a guards game now. People act like Jrue is always an all star because he made it once. Hes a good player that has a good skill set and who is a great defender. He isnt a great shooter and that team as a whole doesnt have great shooting

their guards are pathetic after that. Their starting Darius Miller and Elfrid Payton for sakes. Both should be bench players and there other best guard i think is hurt, etwan moore, that i had discussion with Scoots saying hes a bench player too and shouldnt be starting. That team has a serious talent problem and (I didnt look this up) but seem to be in Cap hell.

If they were in the East, we would be talking about AD as an MVP candidate because their record would be a little bit better.

Dallas has some talent outside of Luka. Luka is the man but Harrison Barnes is servicable, better than any SG/SF the Pels have, Deandre Jordan, Wes Matthews is better than any sg/sf on the Pels

warfelg
01-11-2019, 10:18 AM
1) LeBron - Until proven otherwise and he gets vastly outplayed in the playoffs, there isn't any indication he isn't the best still.

2) Kevin Durant - Probably still the best scorer in the league and has been unstoppable in the playoffs.

3) Giannis Antetokounmpo - Need to see more in the playoffs but this guy is just unreal. The ability to help his team win games while taking few shots proves he is a versatile player who can do it all. Great defense, insane length, and dominates games without shooting.

4) James Harden - Have to put Harden here even though I dislike his playoffs performances. Playoffs excluded, probably the best scorer in the NBA. Not a huge fan of his proficient ability to gain foul calls but can't deny that he's incredibly skilled.

5) Curry - Best shooter in the league. His absence proved that the Warriors are a vastly superior team when he plays and is healthy. Had to bump him a few spots because of how well the others are playing but he's going to be top five as long as his shooting is that good.

Others:

6) Kawhi - Would like to put him top five but his team has been very good without him (8-2 record) so I'm not sure how to evaluate his overall impact until the playoffs when he will undoubtedly have to lead them.

7) Embiid - Missed only two games so far, shoots FT's very well for a center, dominating the game offensively and defensively, top rebounder in the league, and the best center in the game.

8) AD - Disappointed by the Pelicans as a team overall and not liking the fact AD seems to put up amazing stats but his team can't get above .500. Might be a case of stat-stuffing so I have to penalize him for that. Needs to start winning. Mavs aren't a very good overall team either and they are just a game or two behind Pelicans.

9) Paul George - I said he was better than Jimmy Butler and you guys said no way.. Easily a top ten player this season and IMO, a candidate for MVP. Our best defender, scorer, and player.

10) Jokic - Could dominate the game in various ways. Rebounds well, passes like an elite player, doesn't have to score the ball to have an impact. Also leading his team to the best record in the West - something I don't think was expected at all. Would not mind putting Kyrie or Lillard here either.

Really like this list, but I personally would jump Kawhi to 3, everyone else down a spot there.

Hawkeye15
01-11-2019, 10:32 AM
LeBron
Kawhi
Harden
Giannis
Durant

I struggle with Davis as well, but his roster support is just a laugher compared to the guys listed above here. If he were to go to a team with help, and his win total jumped, it would be funny cause everyone would immediately jack him straight into the top 5.

Hawkeye15
01-11-2019, 10:33 AM
1) LeBron - Until proven otherwise and he gets vastly outplayed in the playoffs, there isn't any indication he isn't the best still.

2) Kevin Durant - Probably still the best scorer in the league and has been unstoppable in the playoffs.

3) Giannis Antetokounmpo - Need to see more in the playoffs but this guy is just unreal. The ability to help his team win games while taking few shots proves he is a versatile player who can do it all. Great defense, insane length, and dominates games without shooting.

4) James Harden - Have to put Harden here even though I dislike his playoffs performances. Playoffs excluded, probably the best scorer in the NBA. Not a huge fan of his proficient ability to gain foul calls but can't deny that he's incredibly skilled.

5) Curry - Best shooter in the league. His absence proved that the Warriors are a vastly superior team when he plays and is healthy. Had to bump him a few spots because of how well the others are playing but he's going to be top five as long as his shooting is that good.

Others:

6) Kawhi - Would like to put him top five but his team has been very good without him (8-2 record) so I'm not sure how to evaluate his overall impact until the playoffs when he will undoubtedly have to lead them.

7) Embiid - Missed only two games so far, shoots FT's very well for a center, dominating the game offensively and defensively, top rebounder in the league, and the best center in the game.

8) AD - Disappointed by the Pelicans as a team overall and not liking the fact AD seems to put up amazing stats but his team can't get above .500. Might be a case of stat-stuffing so I have to penalize him for that. Needs to start winning. Mavs aren't a very good overall team either and they are just a game or two behind Pelicans.

9) Paul George - I said he was better than Jimmy Butler and you guys said no way.. Easily a top ten player this season and IMO, a candidate for MVP. Our best defender, scorer, and player.

10) Jokic - Could dominate the game in various ways. Rebounds well, passes like an elite player, doesn't have to score the ball to have an impact. Also leading his team to the best record in the West - something I don't think was expected at all. Would not mind putting Kyrie or Lillard here either.

I feel ya. The Wolves have a better record, with a single all star. What does that make Towns so far this year haha?

ewing
01-11-2019, 10:41 AM
i was beating a dead horse this off season about how overrated the board had the Pels. They overachieved last year and people got tricked into thinking they were better with Demarcus because it was a matchup nightmare for the Blazers, add that to the fact they had playoff rondo controlling everything.

Hard to be good with that squad that got a little worse.

Front court is awesome. Davis/Randle . Awesome love them.

But for the most part its a guards game now. People act like Jrue is always an all star because he made it once. Hes a good player that has a good skill set and who is a great defender. He isnt a great shooter and that team as a whole doesnt have great shooting

their guards are pathetic after that. Their starting Darius Miller and Elfrid Payton for sakes. Both should be bench players and there other best guard i think is hurt, etwan moore, that i had discussion with Scoots saying hes a bench player too and shouldnt be starting. That team has a serious talent problem and (I didnt look this up) but seem to be in Cap hell.

If they were in the East, we would be talking about AD as an MVP candidate because their record would be a little bit better.

Dallas has some talent outside of Luka. Luka is the man but Harrison Barnes is servicable, better than any SG/SF the Pels have, Deandre Jordan, Wes Matthews is better than any sg/sf on the Pels

IDK, i think they were better without Cousins. I think Mirotic a much better fit on that team and maybe just better then Cousins. So far he has played 26 games this year. There starting PG has played 11. They are only 2 games under .500. You are right that they weak at the guard but i don't think they were overrated. People saw them a pretty good team if healthy. They are.

ewing
01-11-2019, 10:47 AM
Agreed. As much as we hear about his amazing stats and ability as a player, I can't fathom how Doncic is leading an inferior team to a similar record. At some point, this has to be an Anthony Davis problem and I think we're nearing that. I could see him having a huge impact on any other team but his inability as a 1st option thus far has been a problem for me.

He is a very good first option IMO. Just not one that is a play maker for others. The game has become so dribble drive dominate that guys that score big are expected to do that too. Most of them do. AD doesn't. I think you can definitely make the argument that it makes him less valuable but I still think he is legit go to scorer and that makes him a good #1 option

Hawkeye15
01-11-2019, 10:57 AM
He is a very good first option IMO. Just not one that is a play maker for others. The game has become so dribble drive dominate that guys that score big are expected to do that too. Most of them do. AD doesn't. I think you can definitely make the argument that it makes him less valuable but I still think he is legit go to scorer and that makes him a good #1 option

spot on dude. Bigs only have so much impact offensively if they aren't playmakers who can handle. No matter how good they are (unless you are Shaq for example).

Rivera
01-11-2019, 11:01 AM
IDK, i think they were better without Cousins. I think Mirotic a much better fit on that team and maybe just better then Cousins. So far he has played 26 games this year. There starting PG has played 11. They are only 2 games under .500. You are right that they weak at the guard but i don't think they were overrated. People saw them a pretty good team if healthy. They are.

no way mirotic is better than cousins, fit sure we can debate that. They had a pecking order, they also had playoff rondo who helped big time with that push getting everyone in the right spot and getting easy buckets for Davis. Rondo also allowed Jrue to play more off ball and dude was killing it. Jrues now on ball and their wings blow. I love Davis/Mirotic/Randle front court I do. But its not enough when you have terrible sg/sfs in an era that you need to be at above average to good to make some real noise

Rivera
01-11-2019, 11:02 AM
spot on dude. Bigs only have so much impact offensively if they aren't playmakers who can handle. No matter how good they are (unless you are Shaq for example).

and this is why I still have AD as a top 5 player, dude is amazing, but the rest of that roster, especially the guards blows. Jrue is the only good one

Rivera
01-11-2019, 11:03 AM
I never answered the question im gonna go

1) Bron
2) KD
3) AD
4) Curry
5) Harden

mightybosstone
01-11-2019, 11:15 AM
i was beating a dead horse this off season about how overrated the board had the Pels. They overachieved last year and people got tricked into thinking they were better with Demarcus because it was a matchup nightmare for the Blazers, add that to the fact they had playoff rondo controlling everything.

Hard to be good with that squad that got a little worse.

Front court is awesome. Davis/Randle . Awesome love them.

But for the most part its a guards game now. People act like Jrue is always an all star because he made it once. Hes a good player that has a good skill set and who is a great defender. He isnt a great shooter and that team as a whole doesnt have great shooting

their guards are pathetic after that. Their starting Darius Miller and Elfrid Payton for sakes. Both should be bench players and there other best guard i think is hurt, etwan moore, that i had discussion with Scoots saying hes a bench player too and shouldnt be starting. That team has a serious talent problem and (I didnt look this up) but seem to be in Cap hell.

If they were in the East, we would be talking about AD as an MVP candidate because their record would be a little bit better.

Dallas has some talent outside of Luka. Luka is the man but Harrison Barnes is servicable, better than any SG/SF the Pels have, Deandre Jordan, Wes Matthews is better than any sg/sf on the Pels

Great post! I've similarly thought this about New Orleans the last couple of years. You can survive in today's NBA with a big man as your best player, but your No. 2 had better be a damn good playmaking guard, and your team had better be deep and talented. New Orleans doesn't really have either.

I've always liked Holiday, but he's not a No. 2, and he's certainly not worth $25 million a year—even by today's cap standards. And when you're paying a combined $27.1 million to Solomon Hill, E'Twaun Moore and Wesley Johnson, that's not great. I actually really liked the Mirotic and Randle acquisitions, but they're essentially a stacked front court team with one above average guard.

I don't blame Davis for wanting to get out of there.

Hawkeye15
01-11-2019, 11:20 AM
and this is why I still have AD as a top 5 player, dude is amazing, but the rest of that roster, especially the guards blows. Jrue is the only good one

I am open to both sides man. I think he is probably a top 5 player, but his impact isn't spitting the wins out due to roster makeup and nature of the game he has..

buckalis
01-11-2019, 11:23 AM
Great post! I've similarly thought this about New Orleans the last couple of years. You can survive in today's NBA with a big man as your best player, but your No. 2 had better be a damn good playmaking guard, and your team had better be deep and talented. New Orleans doesn't really have either.



Fully agree... Partly the reason why I had that conversation with you yesterday when I claimed that a Giannis + Harden duo on the Bucks roster, would end up being the most dreadful duo ever in the NBA history...

Rivera
01-11-2019, 11:25 AM
Great post! I've similarly thought this about New Orleans the last couple of years. You can survive in today's NBA with a big man as your best player, but your No. 2 had better be a damn good playmaking guard, and your team had better be deep and talented. New Orleans doesn't really have either.

I've always liked Holiday, but he's not a No. 2, and he's certainly not worth $25 million a year—even by today's cap standards. And when you're paying a combined $27.1 million to Solomon Hill, E'Twaun Moore and Wesley Johnson, that's not great. I actually really liked the Mirotic and Randle acquisitions, but they're essentially a stacked front court team with one above average guard.

I don't blame Davis for wanting to get out of there.

I dont either. Look at the cap numbers for the below average (okay maybe moore is average) players. Like none of those players are starting players and they are getting PAID. Jrue totally isnt work 25 mil even with the inflated cap. They dont have any guards that can create, thats why Rondo was actually a great fit. I cant wait till AD leaves. The reason they are even in playoff contention is because of AD if not, they are Suns level bad, and maybe even worse than that.

And like you. I love their frontcourt. their back court sucks

JAZZNC
01-11-2019, 11:29 AM
Are you saying that Jokic has a joke of a team because of the injuries or just in general? Because if it's the latter, I have to disagree.
Definitely injuries. When healthy they are a talented roster but they have been killed by injuries and Jokic still has them atop the Western Conference while everybody here is still seemingly making excuses for Davis. I just dont see how you can say Davis is a top 5 player with the team results you get from him.

Heediot
01-11-2019, 12:05 PM
1. Lebron - Untill proven otherise in the post-season.
2. Kawhi - 2 way game. Like Bron the physicality and the way games are called in the playoffs don't effect as much as the next 3. Best 2 way player
3. Curry - The focal point and engine of the well oiled historic offense.
4. Durant - Best pure scorer, nice 2 way player
5. Harden - Close to the two above, just needs more playoff success.

close call Giannis and AD

Giannis - If e gets a jumper he could be really high up. needs to prove more post-season but he is still young as hell.

AD - Individually, he could be argued 2-3 on the list. I don't know how much his game blends with team success. His advanced stats are nice, but it always seems like his teams don't win enough. 2 way stud as well, has gotten better and better defensively every year.

Heediot
01-11-2019, 12:19 PM
Yeah AD and KD need to have gives that can create and dictate the offense. They are more guys that you just give the ball to when you need a basket.

Individual talent - AD, GIannis, KD could be argued to be the top 3 with Bron aging. It's a team game tough, these guys are more talented individual vs. Steph and Harden, but the latter two can churn out more w'sthe way the game is this day and age. Kawhi and Bron are guys that can still maintain their level of play in the post-season so that's why they are at the top for me.

mightybosstone
01-11-2019, 12:44 PM
I love Kawhi's game, but I keep seeing people rank him in the top 3, and that just seems too high to me. He's a phenomenal defender and a top 5-10 scorer, but the thing that puts the Lebrons, Currys, Hardens and Duarants ahead of him is that they create for others. He really doesn't.

He's a more traditional SF historically on offense playing in an era where wings are expected to be more well-rounded and make plays for others offensively. Now you could argue his defense sets him apart, but I think in today's NBA, having playmaking skills is more highly valued from your wings than perimeter defense. You could really make the case either way, so please don't flame me with angry hate-filled responses about how I'm undervaluing defense because Harden is my guy.

Also, the off-the-court stuff with him in the last year and a half was really frustrating. He's still absolutely returned to the guy he was pre-injury, and he deserves consideration on any top 5-10 list among players today, but he's a step behind a lot of those guys offensively and the distraction of having him on your team just seems like kind of a minus to me.

GREATNESS ONE
01-11-2019, 12:47 PM
1- Lebron
2- Durant
3- Curry
4- Kawhi
5- Harden

mightybosstone
01-11-2019, 12:51 PM
I dont either. Look at the cap numbers for the below average (okay maybe moore is average) players. Like none of those players are starting players and they are getting PAID. Jrue totally isnt work 25 mil even with the inflated cap. They dont have any guards that can create, thats why Rondo was actually a great fit. I cant wait till AD leaves. The reason they are even in playoff contention is because of AD if not, they are Suns level bad, and maybe even worse than that.

And like you. I love their frontcourt. their back court sucks

It's going to be fascinating to see the Davis free agent market play out in 2020. Or if New Orleans doesn't improve between now and the 2020 trade deadline, does the franchise see the writing on the wall and ultimately deal him while they still can to the highest bidder?

But Davis has been such an under the radar guy his whole career, partly because he's hidden away on mediocre teams. Imagine what playing in Boston, New York or LA could do for his superstardom. Hell, for his legacy. The dude has only played in 13 playoff games his whole career, but he's still 25. What if he starts winning championships while putting up the kind of numbers he has the last 3-4 years?

Right now, he's in that fringe all-time category with the guys who put up great numbers on bad teams. But you take those same numbers and throw some Finals appearances and rings into the mix, and we could be talking about a top 20 all-time caliber player a decade from now.

Hawkeye15
01-11-2019, 12:58 PM
I love Kawhi's game, but I keep seeing people rank him in the top 3, and that just seems too high to me. He's a phenomenal defender and a top 5-10 scorer, but the thing that puts the Lebrons, Currys, Hardens and Duarants ahead of him is that they create for others. He really doesn't.

He's a more traditional SF historically on offense playing in an era where wings are expected to be more well-rounded and make plays for others offensively. Now you could argue his defense sets him apart, but I think in today's NBA, having playmaking skills is more highly valued from your wings than perimeter defense. You could really make the case either way, so please don't flame me with angry hate-filled responses about how I'm undervaluing defense because Harden is my guy.

Also, the off-the-court stuff with him in the last year and a half was really frustrating. He's still absolutely returned to the guy he was pre-injury, and he deserves consideration on any top 5-10 list among players today, but he's a step behind a lot of those guys offensively and the distraction of having him on your team just seems like kind of a minus to me.

I used to agree with this, but his playmaking skills have shined the last 2 seasons he has played. The guy can take over a game anytime he feels like it.

Heediot
01-11-2019, 01:08 PM
I love Kawhi's game, but I keep seeing people rank him in the top 3, and that just seems too high to me. He's a phenomenal defender and a top 5-10 scorer, but the thing that puts the Lebrons, Currys, Hardens and Duarants ahead of him is that they create for others. He really doesn't.

He's a more traditional SF historically on offense playing in an era where wings are expected to be more well-rounded and make plays for others offensively. Now you could argue his defense sets him apart, but I think in today's NBA, having playmaking skills is more highly valued from your wings than perimeter defense. You could really make the case either way, so please don't flame me with angry hate-filled responses about how I'm undervaluing defense because Harden is my guy.

Also, the off-the-court stuff with him in the last year and a half was really frustrating. He's still absolutely returned to the guy he was pre-injury, and he deserves consideration on any top 5-10 list among players today, but he's a step behind a lot of those guys offensively and the distraction of having him on your team just seems like kind of a minus to me.

His game doesn't drop off in the playoffs and he as proven championship mettle. Two way stud.

I do agree there are guys that can churn more wins in the regular season to build around. In the playoffs he can still impose his will unlike some of the others guys I had in my top 5.

I value Playoffs more vs. Regular season.

Tg11
01-11-2019, 01:11 PM
1- LeBron
2- Durant
3- Harden
4- Giannis
5- AD

LeBron even in his prime is still the #1 option when it comes to people's lists even if he is getting older. LeBron hasn't let up. Durant is right there even though Harden should be above him but it is really a toss up between those 2. Giannis is definitely #4 for me on this list even though he's making a case to be MVP. AD for me is #5 but I was torn between him and Embiid.

mightybosstone
01-11-2019, 01:13 PM
I used to agree with this, but his playmaking skills have shined the last 2 seasons he has played. The guy can take over a game anytime he feels like it.

Well, and being totally honest, I don't know that I've watched much of his play in Toronto at all this season. I don't have nearly as much time to watch NBA games anymore, so I pretty much only watch the Rockets and very rarely catch the occasional 10-15 minutes of a nationally-televised game. So I'm really only looking at the stats here, but his 3.1 assists per game and 14.8% AST% are really, really low for star guard and wing players in today's NBA. By comparison, Carmelo's career numbers are 3.0 APG and a 15.5% AST%. So he's essentially Melo as a playmaker statistically.

But maybe there's something in watching him play that the stats aren't showing me? Do you get the sense that he's a better playmaker than those numbers suggest?

Hawkeye15
01-11-2019, 01:19 PM
Well, and being totally honest, I don't know that I've watched much of his play in Toronto at all this season. I don't have nearly as much time to watch NBA games anymore, so I pretty much only watch the Rockets and very rarely catch the occasional 10-15 minutes of a nationally-televised game. So I'm really only looking at the stats here, but his 3.1 assists per game and 14.8% AST% are really, really low for star guard and wing players in today's NBA. By comparison, Carmelo's career numbers are 3.0 APG and a 15.5% AST%. So he's essentially Melo as a playmaker statistically.

But maybe there's something in watching him play that the stats aren't showing me? Do you get the sense that he's a better playmaker than those numbers suggest?

I do, and he showed it in SA. I don't think he is asked to do that right now, they have a legit PG to handle some of that, and Toronto may be using him like they did DeRozan (score, score, score).

He is proven come playoff time as well, and I just think he continually flies under the radar as an elite player. There have been games I watch where he literally just takes over, and that only happens by need, because he never forces anything.

FWIW, his assist percentages were higher his last 2 years in SA when he was asked to do more, so it's in him. Toronto just doesn't ask him to do it. Plus he is clearly being hyper aggressive looking for his own. Check out is FTrate, and shot attempts. Dude aint looking to pass haha

mightybosstone
01-11-2019, 01:20 PM
His game doesn't drop off in the playoffs and he as proven championship mettle. Two way stud.

I do agree there are guys that can churn more wins in the regular season to build around. In the playoffs he can still impose his will unlike some of the others guys I had in my top 5.

I value Playoffs more vs. Regular season.

OK, but Kawhi hasn't played past the second round since 2014 (when he was actually a far inferior player), and he's two years removed from playing in the postseason, period. Granted his numbers in the postseason are legit, but I feel like that postseason resume is living off reputation at this point. If this is a "who's better right now" list, I don't know that you could justify to me that he's better than Durant or Curry based solely off potseason performance when they just got done winning back-to-back titles. Harden, I can at least understand your justification there.

mightybosstone
01-11-2019, 01:28 PM
I do, and he showed it in SA. I don't think he is asked to do that right now, they have a legit PG to handle some of that, and Toronto may be using him like they did DeRozan (score, score, score).

He is proven come playoff time as well, and I just think he continually flies under the radar as an elite player. There have been games I watch where he literally just takes over, and that only happens by need, because he never forces anything.

FWIW, his assist percentages were higher his last 2 years in SA when he was asked to do more, so it's in him. Toronto just doesn't ask him to do it. Plus he is clearly being hyper aggressive looking for his own. Check out is FTrate, and shot attempts. Dude aint looking to pass haha

So while I can appreciate this argument and I understand where it's coming from, don't we always hear the "Player X can totally do that thing whenever he chooses to to" argument? Whenever T-Mac was in Houston, I constantly heard people say that T-Mac was an elite defender "when he wanted to be" or "when the team needed him to be." And I can't count how many times I've heard someone suggest a scorer could average 40 points per game "if he wanted to."

But if you're only that guy whenever the moment or the team REALLY requires you to be capable of that thing, should we be giving you credit for being that guy all the time? Does that make any sense? I just don't think that seems fair to me.

Heediot
01-11-2019, 02:02 PM
OK, but Kawhi hasn't played past the second round since 2014 (when he was actually a far inferior player), and he's two years removed from playing in the postseason, period. Granted his numbers in the postseason are legit, but I feel like that postseason resume is living off reputation at this point. If this is a "who's better right now" list, I don't know that you could justify to me that he's better than Durant or Curry based solely off potseason performance when they just got done winning back-to-back titles. Harden, I can at least understand your justification there.

Didn't he face the Warriors WCF 2017? And the game e got KO's by Zaza was the game of myth and legend. He was single-handedly beating the GOAT team. Not saying it was sustainable for 7 games, or even the wole game, but the guy is a beast.

The thing about Kawhi is that the physicality and officiating doesn't deter him from playing his game as consistently as other wings. Most guys percentages drop when the playoff hits. KD is atrocious from 3 witout Curry and GS. Before joining GS is percentages took a solid dip. Playing in GS made it easier for him to get cleaner looks, and his presence also made it easier for everyone else. Theres too much to defend in GS with him there so everyone can play their game with less stress vs. a star on another team. Kawhi has been consistent even with the declining stars and departures in SA. If he doesn't do good in the playoffs up north I'll change my ranking. Curry/Harden/RW percentages all take dips in the playoffs.

Defensively he allows you to do more in the playoffs too. There isn't anyone more respected on the perimeter come may and june and teams have to plan around that too.

Scoots
01-11-2019, 02:17 PM
Just curious, but what does this discussion do for anyone? Nobody is getting convinced to change their opinion, so after each user's list is posted what is the point of all the back and forth when there is never going to be an actual final answer?

mightybosstone
01-11-2019, 02:34 PM
Just curious, but what does this discussion do for anyone? Nobody is getting convinced to change their opinion, so after each user's list is posted what is the point of all the back and forth when there is never going to be an actual final answer?

It's an internet sports forum. Do you really expect anything anyone says to change anyone else's mind? Or that there is ever really a "final answer" to any question posed in this forum that 100 percent of us will all agree on?

Also, even though this conversation is constantly coming up, it's at least a worthwhile discussion that's always worth having where the players and the order are consistently changing. I just put Giannis in my top 5 for the first time ever, and when I expanded it to top 10, it was interesting to see myself giving guys like George, Embiid and Jokic more credit than I'd ever given them before.

I'd much rather have this ongoing conversation—which changes pretty regularly year to year—about the league's best players and where they rank against one another than have four months of debate over whether Kuzma/Ingram is a better duo than Tatum/Brown, wouldn't you? And somehow we've already on the fourth page, and it doesn't appear that we've had any trolling or baiting.

tredigs
01-11-2019, 02:35 PM
I don't know but I find the lack of respect of Curry on this board particularly interesting. Moat likely will go down as a top 20 player All Time with a top 10 peak who is in his prime. Yet not making half the top 5s and no person has him above Durant, despite clearly being more impactful than Durant (stats/wins/eye-test wise).

Rivera
01-11-2019, 02:36 PM
Just curious, but what does this discussion do for anyone? Nobody is getting convinced to change their opinion, so after each user's list is posted what is the point of all the back and forth when there is never going to be an actual final answer?

then why do we have a forum? why are there sport debate shows?

if your level headed enough, you can learn from others who may watch some players more than you can, this whole AD discussion about impacting winning and how good is he really is fascinating and I never thought about that until this thread.

but this is a bad post considering this thread has generated great discussion so far with little to no trolling (so far) and we want to promote discussion to make the boards better.

if you feel this is a futile discussion not worth it because no one will agree or listen to your point, feel free not to post in this thread. Considering you're a mod, our role is to promote and continue sports discussion to get an uptick in this forum.

Rivera
01-11-2019, 02:40 PM
I don't know but I find the lack of respect of Curry on this board particularly interesting. Moat likely will go down as a top 20 player All Time with a top 10 peak who is in his prime. Yet not making half the top 5s and no person has him above Durant, despite clearly being more impactful than Durant (stats/wins/eye-test wise).

ill defend myself, because I didnt have Curry in my top 5 MVP voting. Not that he isnt worthy, dude is totally worthy for an MVP dude is balling.

Personally, because GSW is so loaded it hurts his MVP case despite me knowing Curry is the straw that stirs the GSW, and how bad they were this season when he was hurt. It could honestly be a GSW fatigue similar to how LBJ got MVP fatigue and others. It would be hard for me to put him at #1 right now, he would have to go out of his mind kind of like Harden is doing now scoring wise to get that MVP.

Hawkeye15
01-11-2019, 02:41 PM
Just curious, but what does this discussion do for anyone? Nobody is getting convinced to change their opinion, so after each user's list is posted what is the point of all the back and forth when there is never going to be an actual final answer?

gives me a semi

mightybosstone
01-11-2019, 02:48 PM
I don't know but I find the lack of respect of Curry on this board particularly interesting. Moat likely will go down as a top 20 player All Time with a top 10 peak who is in his prime. Yet not making half the top 5s and no person has him above Durant, despite clearly being more impactful than Durant (stats/wins/eye-test wise).

If I've learned anything in my 12 years on this board, it's that fans will always value guys who have big moments in the playoffs over the guys who don't. Curry can post superior numbers in the regular season and you can scream until you're red in the face about his impact being greater, but everyone watches the Finals and we all saw the back-to-back Finals MVPs and how Durant took over in those big moments.

Personally, it's why I rank him higher as well (in addition to defensive superiority). Also, can you really justify Durant being ranked ahead of Curry as being disrespectful because of Curry's likely being a future top 20 all-time player when Durant is pretty much a lock to crack the top 20 as well?

Hawkeye15
01-11-2019, 02:53 PM
If I've learned anything in my 12 years on this board, it's that fans will always value guys who have big moments in the playoffs over the guys who don't. Curry can post superior numbers in the regular season and you can scream until you're red in the face about his impact being greater, but everyone watches the Finals and we all saw the back-to-back Finals MVPs and how Durant took over in those big moments.

Personally, it's why I rank him higher as well (in addition to defensive superiority). Also, can you really justify Durant being ranked ahead of Curry as being disrespectful because of Curry's likely being a future top 20 all-time player when Durant is pretty much a lock to crack the top 20 as well?

on top of that, it's just hard to give a guy so much credit when he is playing on a team so loaded it's a joke (and underperforming I might add), while in the meantime there are guys taking on so much more responsibility. It causes players to get overlooked when your team is littered with stars. I mean Klay scored 43 points on 4 dribbles last week. Come the **** on, no way that happens in any circumstance other than the defense has no choice but to keep letting you shoot away because they can't afford to leave your teammates who are leaps better than you.

Heediot
01-11-2019, 03:18 PM
I don't know but I find the lack of respect of Curry on this board particularly interesting. Moat likely will go down as a top 20 player All Time with a top 10 peak who is in his prime. Yet not making half the top 5s and no person has him above Durant, despite clearly being more impactful than Durant (stats/wins/eye-test wise).

I have him above KD.

JAZZNC
01-11-2019, 03:20 PM
Just curious, but what does this discussion do for anyone? Nobody is getting convinced to change their opinion, so after each user's list is posted what is the point of all the back and forth when there is never going to be an actual final answer?

That's literally every thread in the history of ever man.

tredigs
01-11-2019, 03:37 PM
ill defend myself, because I didnt have Curry in my top 5 MVP voting. Not that he isnt worthy, dude is totally worthy for an MVP dude is balling.

Personally, because GSW is so loaded it hurts his MVP case despite me knowing Curry is the straw that stirs the GSW, and how bad they were this season when he was hurt. It could honestly be a GSW fatigue similar to how LBJ got MVP fatigue and others. It would be hard for me to put him at #1 right now, he would have to go out of his mind kind of like Harden is doing now scoring wise to get that MVP.

If this is MVP voting that's a way different discussion for me. But "Who are the top 5 players in the NBA?" is as different question and what I am referring to.

tredigs
01-11-2019, 03:42 PM
If I've learned anything in my 12 years on this board, it's that fans will always value guys who have big moments in the playoffs over the guys who don't. Curry can post superior numbers in the regular season and you can scream until you're red in the face about his impact being greater, but everyone watches the Finals and we all saw the back-to-back Finals MVPs and how Durant took over in those big moments.

Personally, it's why I rank him higher as well (in addition to defensive superiority). Also, can you really justify Durant being ranked ahead of Curry as being disrespectful because of Curry's likely being a future top 20 all-time player when Durant is pretty much a lock to crack the top 20 as well?
I am very aware of this being the reason and I have him above Curry in the 2 Finals as well (although Curry imo was better than KD in at least 2, and likely 3 of the 4 games last year. And brilliant the prior Finals as well). But, he also has had it easier than Curry in the Finals, and they were not even the Warriors toughest series for ****s sake. Curry being better in many of the playoff series they have played. But what drives it home is the on/off metrics and the Warriors play without Durant the past 3 years (still absolutely dominant) as opposed to without Curry in that stretch (a 50 win level team). I have still not seen anything to indicate to me that KD could lead them to a title without Curry. I know for a fact Curry can however. Curry is simply better individually and more important to winning a title. And not just than KD, then everybody outside of Bron. And Curry can raise a teams celing higher than Bron (and everyone else) due to his far superior ability to play off ball and let other players cook along side him.

If you don't have Curry top 3, let alone 5, you're simply missing something. I would take him #1 if I'm looking to win a title personally, but Bron has his case as the best floor raiser.

Rivera
01-11-2019, 03:56 PM
If this is MVP voting that's a way different discussion for me. But "Who are the top 5 players in the NBA?" is as different question and what I am referring to.

my bad i confused threads haha I did have Steph in my top 5 tho!

Hawkeye15
01-11-2019, 03:59 PM
If this is MVP voting that's a way different discussion for me. But "Who are the top 5 players in the NBA?" is as different question and what I am referring to.

for sure man, but sometimes your contributions get lost when your roster is A-amazing, and B-kinda underachieving this year. There is no way the Warriors shouldn't have 4-5 more wins than they do. But, such is the challenge of a dynasty-avoiding complacency.

ewing
01-11-2019, 04:00 PM
Great post! I've similarly thought this about New Orleans the last couple of years. You can survive in today's NBA with a big man as your best player, but your No. 2 had better be a damn good playmaking guard, and your team had better be deep and talented. New Orleans doesn't really have either.

I've always liked Holiday, but he's not a No. 2, and he's certainly not worth $25 million a year—even by today's cap standards. And when you're paying a combined $27.1 million to Solomon Hill, E'Twaun Moore and Wesley Johnson, that's not great. I actually really liked the Mirotic and Randle acquisitions, but they're essentially a stacked front court team with one above average guard.

I don't blame Davis for wanting to get out of there.

I think Holiday is the guy on the team that is vastly overrated. Don't get me wrong he is a good player but I saw on another board people largely rating him better then Conley. Sorry I don't think so. If the Pels had a lead guard like Mike Conley they would be in business

Tg11
01-11-2019, 04:36 PM
For me Kawhi I was also torn on in my top 5 list because I wanted to put him in there but Kawhi is definitely in top 10 for sure...he's between 6 and 7

tredigs
01-11-2019, 07:10 PM
for sure man, but sometimes your contributions get lost when your roster is A-amazing, and B-kinda underachieving this year. There is no way the Warriors shouldn't have 4-5 more wins than they do. But, such is the challenge of a dynasty-avoiding complacency.

But you have KD ahead who the Warriors have struggled with when he is at the helm (a direct line can be drawn between Curry sitting and the Ls). This being the case both before and after Durant for the better half of a decade now. It's no secret who stirs the drink there.

smith&wesson
01-11-2019, 07:52 PM
LeBron because he le best

Harden because he made everyone grow beards

Leonard because he ruined the spurs

Curry because I like Thai food

Giannis because he’s a freak of nature

Durant is not on my list because he’s a ***** *** *****

mgjohnson7851
01-11-2019, 09:34 PM
I'm confused by this too. You guys are a talented team. But I will add: No Paul Milsap is helping.He's been back since the end of December actually

mgjohnson7851
01-11-2019, 09:38 PM
Definitely injuries. When healthy they are a talented roster but they have been killed by injuries and Jokic still has them atop the Western Conference while everybody here is still seemingly making excuses for Davis. I just dont see how you can say Davis is a top 5 player with the team results you get from him.Oh okay I feel ya lol. The fact that we have stayed in the top spot with all these injuries is amazing imo. Jokic is so damn good and he should be in the MVP talk.

Scoots
01-11-2019, 11:22 PM
It's an internet sports forum. Do you really expect anything anyone says to change anyone else's mind? Or that there is ever really a "final answer" to any question posed in this forum that 100 percent of us will all agree on?

Also, even though this conversation is constantly coming up, it's at least a worthwhile discussion that's always worth having where the players and the order are consistently changing. I just put Giannis in my top 5 for the first time ever, and when I expanded it to top 10, it was interesting to see myself giving guys like George, Embiid and Jokic more credit than I'd ever given them before.

I'd much rather have this ongoing conversation—which changes pretty regularly year to year—about the league's best players and where they rank against one another than have four months of debate over whether Kuzma/Ingram is a better duo than Tatum/Brown, wouldn't you? And somehow we've already on the fourth page, and it doesn't appear that we've had any trolling or baiting.

Sure. The title will be won, rookie of the year, mvp, etc, discussions about all-stars, all-nba, projecting record, how players play the game etc. It's the "I rank players this way" thing I've never understood after the first time I read one ... they are all just people shouting in a room with no one listening. I just don't get it. Oh well, not for me.

mightybosstone
01-12-2019, 01:53 AM
Sure. The title will be won, rookie of the year, mvp, etc, discussions about all-stars, all-nba, projecting record, how players play the game etc. It's the "I rank players this way" thing I've never understood after the first time I read one ... they are all just people shouting in a room with no one listening. I just don't get it. Oh well, not for me.
Where in this thread is this "shouting" you speak of?

Scoots
01-12-2019, 02:07 AM
Where in this thread is this "shouting" you speak of?

It was hyperbolic.

Driven
01-12-2019, 11:01 AM
I never answered the question im gonna go

1) Bron
2) KD
3) AD
4) Curry
5) Harden

I think this is my list as well. I’m still high on AD, I don’t care if the pelicans are struggling to do anything this year.

Edit: actually forgot about giannis

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

warfelg
01-12-2019, 01:39 PM
He's been back since the end of December actually

Has he been like non-Existant or something?

Sanjay
01-13-2019, 02:10 AM
1. James
2. Durant
3. Leonard
4. Davis
5. Hardern

tredigs
01-13-2019, 10:56 PM
.

LA_Raiders
01-14-2019, 02:11 AM
1. Leonard
2. James
3. Curry
4. Davis
5. G-Freak
6. KD (cry baby)
7. Harden (sorry but the dude can play D for ****)

mightybosstone
01-15-2019, 08:40 AM
1. Leonard
2. James
3. Curry
4. Davis
5. G-Freak
6. KD (cry baby)
7. Harden (sorry but the dude can play D for ****)

Wow... I suppose everyone is entitled to an opinion.

basch152
01-15-2019, 09:47 AM
lebron
curry
durant
Kawhi
AD
harden
embiid
giannis