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Giannis94
01-02-2019, 11:40 AM
Kinda confused as to why Harden has been getting so much hate when he appears to be a superior player to curry sans his acting. I'll be the first to tell you that I hate harden because he's not likeable. But I feel like Curry at this point, is below him. Look at what harden is doing vs. what curry is doing.

With that being said, I am asking who is the better NBA player: Harden or Curry

Hawkeye15
01-02-2019, 12:14 PM
I selected Harden, only because he has shown he can literally do everything for a winning team. But they are not worth an in depth argument to me.

GREATNESS ONE
01-02-2019, 12:38 PM
Giannis

Tg11
01-02-2019, 12:58 PM
Curry over Harden

Tg11
01-02-2019, 12:58 PM
Curry has more rings...3 and Harden has 0

Giannis94
01-02-2019, 01:13 PM
Curry has more rings...3 and Harden has 0

harden hasn't blown a 3-1 finals

tredigs
01-02-2019, 01:15 PM
I selected Harden, only because he has shown he can literally do everything for a winning team. But they are not worth an in depth argument to me.

He can't lead a team to the Finals or put up impressive post season numbers. His game falls off a cliff when a team schemes for him, specifically his shooting, so I'd start there. 41% FG and 31%3pt his last 3 playoffs during his MVP runs. Yikes.

Hawkeye15
01-02-2019, 01:16 PM
He can't lead a team to the Finals or put up impressive post season numbers. His game falls off a cliff when a team schemes for him, specifically his shooting, so I'd start there.

He has also beasted under that same criteria. I mostly pick Harden because we haven't seen Curry lead teams to anything bad or good. He is amazing, but simply part of the machine. Harden IS the machine for his team most of the time.

Again, not worth the fight, but Curry does indeed get hurt for having SO much help.

tredigs
01-02-2019, 01:20 PM
He has also beasted under that same criteria. I mostly pick Harden because we haven't seen Curry lead teams to anything bad or good. He is amazing, but simply part of the machine. Harden IS the machine for his team most of the time.

Again, not worth the fight, but Curry does indeed get hurt for having SO much help.

LOL what? You have not seen Curry lead his teams to anything bad or good? I do not follow this statement. What does it mean when you lead your team to back to back 70 win average seasons and take down a title as the teams sole superstar? "MEH, it's neither here nor there"?

Hawkeye15
01-02-2019, 01:26 PM
LOL what? You have not seen Curry lead his teams to anything bad or good? I do not follow this statement. What does it mean when you lead your team to back to back 70 win average seasons and take down a title as the teams sole superstar? "MEH, it's neither here nor there"?

It's easy to lead studs to wins (Curry had all NBA players with him all along his winning years). It's not as easy to be your teams entire offense. Again, I am penalizing Curry for enjoying the luxury of minimized responsibility for long periods of time. I struggle ranking a player who is sheltered with talent to much of a degree, that's all.

Look come playoff time, I would probably edge to Curry, but it's a long season with 82 games first.

Giannis94
01-02-2019, 01:29 PM
It's hard to evaluate Curry because of the KD signing. If Steph wanted a legacy, he should have pushed for the funds to be allocated elsewhere in building a more sustainable team. Now he's likely facing KD on a max and seeing Klay, Dray leave for bigger deals in addition to the role players that have already left.

valade16
01-02-2019, 01:29 PM
It's Curry. The biggest argument against Curry is his playoff performances and Harden's are even worse.

In the playoffs the last 3 years Harden's Free Throw Rate has fallen from .533 regular season to .417. His TS% from .618% to .560%. His Pts per 100 possessions from 41.0 to 38.0.

In the playoffs his efficiency, his scoring volume and his ability to get to the line all fall. If he could do those things in the playoffs like he could in the regular season, he'd have a strong case as being better.

Tg11
01-02-2019, 01:36 PM
It's Curry. The biggest argument against Curry is his playoff performances and Harden's are even worse.

In the playoffs the last 3 years Harden's Free Throw Rate has fallen from .533 regular season to .417. His TS% from .618% to .560%. His Pts per 100 possessions from 41.0 to 38.0.

In the playoffs his efficiency, his scoring volume and his ability to get to the line all fall. If he could do those things in the playoffs like he could in the regular season, he'd have a strong case as being better.

Exactly it is Curry but even if he isn't as efficient in the playoffs he still gets the job done

naps
01-02-2019, 01:42 PM
Steph Curry.

Didn't have to think much there.

tredigs
01-02-2019, 01:42 PM
It's easy to lead studs to wins (Curry had all NBA players with him all along his winning years). It's not as easy to be your teams entire offense. Again, I am penalizing Curry for enjoying the luxury of minimized responsibility for long periods of time. I struggle ranking a player who is sheltered with talent to much of a degree, that's all.

Look come playoff time, I would probably edge to Curry, but it's a long season with 82 games first.
Eh Hawk those runs in particular that I mentioned Curry played with one offensive star, and that guy is incapable of creating any offense for others, or even for himself. There has rarely been a star as focused on offensively as Curry, and that has maintained for the most part with KD as well. It's a big reason why KD has seen the jump in playoff ease/performances that he has, HIS life is what saw the big change. And no player prior to KD sniffs anything remotely close to what CP provides them offensively. Yet come playoff time for Harden, once again, we got diminished assist:to ratio, diminished FT rate, and diminished shooting to the tune of 41% FG and 29.9% on high volume 3pt shooting. It's an issue. A major one.

I do agree that Harden has had a bigger role for Houston in the regular season since KD joined GS, and that he performs great in that role. It just doesn't last once teams actually attempt to scheme for him. And we know that will undoubtedly be the case again this season.

Tg11
01-02-2019, 01:44 PM
Eh Hawk those runs in particular that I mentioned Curry played with one offensive star, and that guy is incapable of creating any offense for others, or even for himself. There has rarely been a star as focused on offensively as Curry, and that has maintained for the most part with KD as well. It's a big reason why KD has seen the jump in playoff ease/performances that he has, HIS life is what saw the big change. And no player prior to KD sniffs anything remotely close to what CP provides them offensively. Yet come playoff time for Harden, once again, we got diminished assist:to ratio, finished FT rate, and diminishes shooting to the tune of 41% FG and 29.9% on high volume 3pt shooting. It's an issue. A major one.

I do agree that Harden has had a bigger role for Houston in the regular season since KD joined GS, and that he performs great in that role. It just doesn't last once teams actually attempt to scheme for him. And we know that will undoubtedly be the case again this season.

Exactly in the playoffs Harden is known to disappear

tredigs
01-02-2019, 01:47 PM
Exactly it is Curry but even if he isn't as efficient in the playoffs he still gets the job done

For sure, nearly all stars will see a fall off in the playoffs (particularly West stars in this era), but Harden's offensive falloff is massive, and it's every season. Even as a young/budding OKC 6th man in his first Finals, he just completely fell apart. It's like it's part of his basketball DNA.

But I'm done bashing Harden. He's having another fantastic regular season and is on the MVP radar for sure.

Chronz
01-02-2019, 01:53 PM
Haven't read thru the thread but c'mon guys. This is akin to comparing Bosh when he joined wade n bron to the likes of a rookie blake Griffin.

Chronz
01-02-2019, 01:57 PM
It's hard to evaluate Curry because of the KD signing. If Steph wanted a legacy, he should have pushed for the funds to be allocated elsewhere in building a more sustainable team. Now he's likely facing KD on a max and seeing Klay, Dray leave for bigger deals in addition to the role players that have already left.

Its hard but not inferior to harden hard

IKnowHoops
01-02-2019, 01:58 PM
For sure, nearly all stars will see a fall off in the playoffs (particularly West stars in this era), but Harden's offensive falloff is massive, and it's every season. Even as a young/budding OKC 6th man in his first Finals, he just completely fell apart. It's like it's part of his basketball DNA.

But I'm done bashing Harden. He's having another fantastic regular season and is on the MVP radar for sure.

Wrong thread, but itís why Lebron is the unquestioned numero uno. He always goes to another level in the playoffs. Also why Iíd prob rank KL and Durant 2/3

Chronz
01-02-2019, 02:00 PM
Wrong thread, but itís why Lebron is the unquestioned numero uno. He always goes to another level in the playoffs. Also why Iíd prob rank KL and Durant 2/3

Based on what? Body of work matters

tredigs
01-02-2019, 02:02 PM
Wrong thread, but itís why Lebron is the unquestioned numero uno. He always goes to another level in the playoffs. Also why Iíd prob rank KL and Durant 2/3

KL has too limited a playoff sample as the offensive star against top teams for me. KD we have seen come up short big time in the playoffs with OKC multiple times, but his 1v1 game does lend itself better than almost anyone else in last minute possessions, so he benefits big in that role (which leaves a big impression). And with Lebron I agree, though not without his monumental collapses as well obviously.

GREATNESS ONE
01-02-2019, 02:56 PM
https://sports.yahoo.com/james-harden-scored-43-points-192202228.html

Tg11
01-02-2019, 03:15 PM
Harden is unreal...the favorite to win MVP but if he can't keep up this style of play in the playoffs then what is the point

mightybosstone
01-02-2019, 03:17 PM
Historically it's been Curry, but since the start of last season, I think Harden's surpassed Curry as a playerócertainly in terms of production and the advanced numbers. You could make the case that Curry is still the better player whose skills and production aren't shining right now because of Durant's presence, but when it comes to judging players, you are ultimately what the numbers and the accolades say you are. And both give Harden an edge right now.

It will be very interesting to see how their careers and legacies change by the time they retire. Curry is clearly ahead of Harden right now in any all-time discussions, but what if Harden wins MVP this season and leads the Rockets to a title? What if we get this 2018-19 version of Harden for another 3-4 seasons, but Curry has already peaked and never reaches that same level of spectacular play from 2015-16?

Hawkeye15
01-02-2019, 03:29 PM
Historically it's been Curry, but since the start of last season, I think Harden's surpassed Curry as a playerócertainly in terms of production and the advanced numbers. You could make the case that Curry is still the better player whose skills and production aren't shining right now because of Durant's presence, but when it comes to judging players, you are ultimately what the numbers and the accolades say you are. And both give Harden an edge right now.

It will be very interesting to see how their careers and legacies change by the time they retire. Curry is clearly ahead of Harden right now in any all-time discussions, but what if Harden wins MVP this season and leads the Rockets to a title? What if we get this 2018-19 version of Harden for another 3-4 seasons, but Curry has already peaked and never reaches that same level of spectacular play from 2015-16?

as much as I despise Harden, I would love for him to just have a boss playoff run, even if it doesn't result in a title. It will shut up the criticism regarding him. Because he is flat out the most unstoppable offensive player in the game. Until crucial playoff moments haha

valade16
01-02-2019, 03:30 PM
Historically it's been Curry, but since the start of last season, I think Harden's surpassed Curry as a playerócertainly in terms of production and the advanced numbers. You could make the case that Curry is still the better player whose skills and production aren't shining right now because of Durant's presence, but when it comes to judging players, you are ultimately what the numbers and the accolades say you are. And both give Harden an edge right now.

It will be very interesting to see how their careers and legacies change by the time they retire. Curry is clearly ahead of Harden right now in any all-time discussions, but what if Harden wins MVP this season and leads the Rockets to a title? What if we get this 2018-19 version of Harden for another 3-4 seasons, but Curry has already peaked and never reaches that same level of spectacular play from 2015-16?

It's too much of a coincidence to see Curry's stats go down right as KD comes to the Warriors. Couple that with the fact that Curry's stats shoot back up to his pre-KD days whenever KD is not playing and I think it's fairly obvious why Curry's stats "regressed" and it has nothing to do with him getting worse.

That being said, I think the only way Harden surpasses Curry is if he wins a title. At this point, Curry-KD is going to win another title this year and even if KD leaves this off-season (which I believe he will), that's still 2 MVPs including the only unanimous one ever, 4 Championships, and likely every major 3 point record ever by a wide margin.

Not saying Harden can't top that, but it will definitely take some titles. How many players who have never won a title are ranked higher than modern day Alpha level players who have 4+ titles? I can't think of any off the top of my head.

Tg11
01-02-2019, 03:31 PM
as much as I despise Harden, I would love for him to just have a boss playoff run, even if it doesn't result in a title. It will shut up the criticism regarding him. Because he is flat out the most unstoppable offensive player in the game. Until crucial playoff moments haha

HAHA I know right and it is well documented that Rockets fans can't deny it

Hawkeye15
01-02-2019, 03:35 PM
It's too much of a coincidence to see Curry's stats go down right as KD comes to the Warriors. Couple that with the fact that Curry's stats shoot back up to his pre-KD days whenever KD is not playing and I think it's fairly obvious why Curry's stats "regressed" and it has nothing to do with him getting worse.

That being said, I think the only way Harden surpasses Curry is if he wins a title. At this point, Curry-KD is going to win another title this year and even if KD leaves this off-season (which I believe he will), that's still 2 MVPs including the only unanimous one ever, 4 Championships, and likely every major 3 point record ever by a wide margin.

Not saying Harden can't top that, but it will definitely take some titles. How many players who have never won a title are ranked higher than modern day Alpha level players who have 4+ titles? I can't think of any off the top of my head.

I hate that line of thinking honestly. Harden doesn't need to win a title, he just needs to play like an MVP when it matters. Doing so while winning a title helps of course, but I don't think winning it all is necessary to guys who are not top 10ish players ever.

tredigs
01-02-2019, 03:36 PM
Historically it's been Curry, but since the start of last season, I think Harden's surpassed Curry as a playerócertainly in terms of production and the advanced numbers. You could make the case that Curry is still the better player whose skills and production aren't shining right now because of Durant's presence, but when it comes to judging players, you are ultimately what the numbers and the accolades say you are. And both give Harden an edge right now.

It will be very interesting to see how their careers and legacies change by the time they retire. Curry is clearly ahead of Harden right now in any all-time discussions, but what if Harden wins MVP this season and leads the Rockets to a title? What if we get this 2018-19 version of Harden for another 3-4 seasons, but Curry has already peaked and never reaches that same level of spectacular play from 2015-16?

"And leads them to the title" is the key there. If he plays at something somewhat resembling this level and leads them to the title, he vaults up tremendously. But, let's just say we have zero reason to believe he can/will. We have seen enough to know how this story ends. Curry had a poor last 2 weeks per his standards, but he started the year on 30/5/5 on 50/50/90 and has consistently crushed for the better half of a decade now. I don't think there's any question that he's still in his peak. He also still sees massive defensive attention in the playoffs even with KD on the team (again, that being the guy who has had it much easier in this scenario) and has outplayed Harden easily in that regard over the past 2 seasons (as well as over their entire career). Harden is fantastic, but he ain't Curry.

tredigs
01-02-2019, 03:38 PM
I hate that line of thinking honestly. Harden doesn't need to win a title, he just needs to play like an MVP when it matters. Doing so while winning a title helps of course, but I don't think winning it all is necessary to guys who are not top 10ish players ever.

Right, but he has not. Once. Ever. So what are we talking about here?

valade16
01-02-2019, 03:40 PM
I hate that line of thinking honestly. Harden doesn't need to win a title, he just needs to play like an MVP when it matters. Doing so while winning a title helps of course, but I don't think winning it all is necessary to guys who are not top 10ish players ever.

You may hate it, but it's true. All the stats and ability in the world only gets you so far on an all-time list. People really think it's coincidence that every player in the Top 10 all-time has won multiple titles?

Hawkeye15
01-02-2019, 03:42 PM
You may hate it, but it's true. All the stats and ability in the world only gets you so far on an all-time list. People really think it's coincidence that every player in the Top 10 all-time has won multiple titles?

is a title pushing him past Barkley? Would a title have propelled Barkley up 4-5 more spots into the top 10? Does Dr J get a few spots additional because of his title?

valade16
01-02-2019, 03:46 PM
is a title pushing him past Barkley? Would a title have propelled Barkley up 4-5 more spots into the top 10? Does Dr J get a few spots additional because of his title?

I think had Karl Malone won say both the Finals he went to yeah he'd probably be looked at near the Top 10 as opposed to end of Top 20. I think if Barkley won say 3 titles people would consider him clear cut #2 pf All-time instead of an essentially 4 way tie.

I think if say Kobe had zero titles he's not Top 10.

Fair or not, it definitely matters.

Hawkeye15
01-02-2019, 03:48 PM
I think had Karl Malone won say both the Finals he went to yeah he'd probably be looked at near the Top 10 as opposed to end of Top 20. I think if Barkley won say 3 titles people would consider him clear cut #2 pf All-time instead of an essentially 4 way tie.

I think if say Kobe had zero titles he's not Top 10.

Fair or not, it definitely matters.

well now we are re-writing history with multiple titles. I just believe in context far more than results only.

valade16
01-02-2019, 03:49 PM
well now we are re-writing history with multiple titles. I just believe in context far more than results only.

As do I, unfortunately for the most part, all-time lists don't.

tredigs
01-02-2019, 03:50 PM
is a title pushing him past Barkley? Would a title have propelled Barkley up 4-5 more spots into the top 10? Does Dr J get a few spots additional because of his title?

If Stockton/Malone were a bit better and did enough to win a title over MJ, their standing is absolutely higher. If Dirk never has his 2011 run, his standing is absolutely lower. But more important is how you play en route. I don't think Harden has to win a title to jump up in the standings, he just needs to string together some elite post-seasons and not see his shooting plummet into the 20's and low 30's from range when he's taking 10 3's a game in the playoffs. I feel like that's pretty fair/understandable to most.

Scoots
01-02-2019, 03:55 PM
Curry, but there is no point in this discussion. It's just the same old thing.

valade16
01-02-2019, 03:56 PM
If Stockton/Malone were a bit better and did enough to win a title over MJ, their standing is absolutely higher. If Dirk never has his 2011 run, his standing is absolutely lower. But more important is how you play en route. I don't think Harden has to win a title to jump up in the standings, he just needs to string together some elite post-seasons and not see his shooting plummet into the 20's and low 30's from range when he's taking 10 3's a game in the playoffs. I feel like that's pretty fair/understandable to most.

I'm not saying Harden can't move up in the all-time standings without a title, I'm saying there's a ceiling to how high he can move up without one. Even if he averages 40/9/6 for the next 3 years and he doesn't win a single title, he's not entering Top 5 discussions even if such stats would warrant it.

Hawkeye15
01-02-2019, 03:57 PM
If Stockton/Malone were a bit better and did enough to win a title over MJ, their standing is absolutely higher. If Dirk never has his 2011 run, his standing is absolutely lower. But more important is how you play en route. I don't think Harden has to win a title to jump up in the standings, he just needs to string together some elite post-seasons and not see his shooting plummet into the 20's and low 30's from range when he's taking 10 3's a game in the playoffs. I feel like that's pretty fair/understandable to most.

well yeah, if a player is better we look at them as......better. My point is, a title doesn't automatically make you better. Sorry. If that makes a player better in the eyes of drone fans, so be it, but I don't subscribe to that.

Your second half of the post, yes, that is literally what I have said 3 times now in this fkin thread.

mightybosstone
01-02-2019, 03:58 PM
To everyone saying Harden needs to win a title to surpass Curry, I agree. There's a part of me that wishes that if he continued to play at this level and Curry never reaches his 2015-16 peak again, that Harden would surpass him solely on the strength of his production and continued excellence. But objectively I know that's not true. If you swap Hakeem's titles with David Robinson and it was Robinson who dominated Hakeem in 94, not the other way around, they would absolutely be flipped in all-time rankings.

That being said, I do think there's an opportunity for Harden to surpass Curry that I didn't think he had before. After that ridiculous 2015-16 season Curry had, I never thought Harden could be on his level. I no longer think that. Harden has done enough in my mind to be in the same conversation as Curry and maybe even has surpassed Curry in terms of just overall offensive impact as a player.

But he has to shake that reputation of being a playoff failure. I was talking to a friend of mine recently who said "I think he's going to have a Dirk-like title run. I can feel it." Imagine if he does. What if he had a postseason resembling what Dirk did in 2011 and won a title and a Finals MVP? At that point, I think everyone would have to take a serious look at his legacy, and the "Harden vs. Curry" all-time discussion would be a real debate. Because Curry has accomplished a lot in his career, but that lack of a Finals MVP and few really career defining individual postseason moments is admittedly a hole in an otherwise pretty stellar career.

Hawkeye15
01-02-2019, 03:58 PM
I'm not saying Harden can't move up in the all-time standings without a title, I'm saying there's a ceiling to how high he can move up without one. Even if he averages 40/9/6 for the next 3 years and he doesn't win a single title, he's not entering Top 5 discussions even if such stats would warrant it.

Harden has a ceiling anyways, and it's not top 10. Or top 15.

Hawkeye15
01-02-2019, 03:59 PM
To everyone saying Harden needs to win a title to surpass Curry, I agree. There's a part of me that wishes that if he continued to play at this level and Curry never reaches hi 2015-16 peak again, that Harden would surpass him solely on the strength of his production and continued excellent. But objectively I know that's not true. If you swap Hakeem's titles with David Robinson and it was Robinson who dominated Hakeem in 94, not the other way around, they would absolutely be flipped in all-time rankings.

That being said, I do think there's an opportunity for Harden to surpass Curry that I didn't think he had before. After that ridiculous 2015-16 season Curry had, I never thought Harden could be on his level. I no longer think that. Harden has done enough in my mind to be in the same conversation as Curry and maybe even has surpassed Curry in terms of just overall offensive impact as a player.

But he has to shake that reputation of being a playoff failure. I was talking to a friend of mine recently who said "I think he's going to have a Dirk-like title run. I can feel it." Imagine if he does. What if he had a postseason resembling what Dirk did in 2011 and won a title and a Finals MVP? At that point, I think everyone would have to take a serious look at his legacy, and the "Harden vs. Curry" all-time discussion would be a real debate. Because Curry has accomplished a lot in his career, but that lack of a Finals MVP and few really career defining individual postseason moments is admittedly a hole in an otherwise pretty stellar career.

correct. Unlike you, I don't even think he has to win a title, he just needs to stop choking, and make a couple of real boss playoff runs.

mightybosstone
01-02-2019, 04:07 PM
Somewhat off topic, but a more interesting legacy debate might be this: Could Harden feasibly surpass Wade historically if he never wins a title? You could make a really strong case that Harden has already surpassed Wade as a player. Stats say he has, and he does things on the court Wade was simply never capable of. But that one epic postseason run in 2006 gives Wade a trump card that Harden doesn't have.

If Harden won multiple MVPs and continues to put up absurd production, is there a point where he passes Wade without any rings whatsoever? Or is there nothing Harden could possibly do outside of a title to pass Wade?

valade16
01-02-2019, 04:14 PM
Somewhat off topic, but a more interesting legacy debate might be this: Could Harden feasibly surpass Wade historically if he never wins a title? You could make a really strong case that Harden has already surpassed Wade as a player. Stats say he has, and he does things on the court Wade was simply never capable of. But that one epic postseason run in 2006 gives Wade a trump card that Harden doesn't have.

If Harden won multiple MVPs and continues to put up absurd production, is there a point where he passes Wade without any rings whatsoever? Or is there nothing Harden could possibly do outside of a title to pass Wade?

I think Harden can surpass Wade without a title.

mightybosstone
01-02-2019, 04:22 PM
correct. Unlike you, I don't even think he has to win a title, he just needs to stop choking, and make a couple of real boss playoff runs.

But I just don't think the average fan thinks that way. And Chris Paul is the perfect example for it. I can't tell you how many times I've touted Paul's postseason numbers and how good he's been in the playoffs, but fans don't care. They just see that he failed to make it to the conference finals until last season, and he's deemed a playoff failure regardless of what the numbers say.

Even with how huge he stepped up for the Rockets last year, I guarantee if I tried to make a case for Chris Paul as a top 20 all-time player, we wouldn't get five posts in before I had at least one poster say "But he's a playoff choker..." For the average fan, rings = postseason success; no rings = postseason failure.

Hawkeye15
01-02-2019, 04:30 PM
But I just don't think the average fan thinks that way. And Chris Paul is the perfect example for it. I can't tell you how many times I've touted Paul's postseason numbers and how good he's been in the playoffs, but fans don't care. They just see that he failed to make it to the conference finals until last season, and he's deemed a playoff failure regardless of what the numbers say.

Even with how huge he stepped up for the Rockets last year, I guarantee if I tried to make a case for Chris Paul as a top 20 all-time player, we wouldn't get five posts in before I had at least one poster say "But he's a playoff choker..." For the average fan, rings = postseason success; no rings = postseason failure.

Yeah, I know man. But I won't stop sticking up for context over ring count. Ever. It likely gets me nowhere, but whatever.

If you pull up both Magic and Paul's stats for the playoffs, and removed their names entirely, you would be shocked how similar they are. Yet one is considered a top 10 player ever, winner, etc. The other a loser with big numbers. Just sucks dude.

valade16
01-02-2019, 04:51 PM
Yeah, I know man. But I won't stop sticking up for context over ring count. Ever. It likely gets me nowhere, but whatever.

If you pull up both Magic and Paul's stats for the playoffs, and removed their names entirely, you would be shocked how similar they are. Yet one is considered a top 10 player ever, winner, etc. The other a loser with big numbers. Just sucks dude.

But to my point: where do you have Magic ranked and where do you have CP3 ranked all-time? Do you have them both in the same place and if not, what am I missing to explain the discrepancy?

Rivera
01-02-2019, 04:57 PM
i feel like with this thread and the is harden a superstar thread its piss off MBT day :laugh2:

MBT is your baby born yet?

mngopher35
01-02-2019, 04:58 PM
ya I say Curry but the titles are not really comparable given the situations. I still remember when Curry was argued as best player in the league and better than Lebron. Now we are arguing if he is better than someone who's probably not going to be in the top 15 all time who shares the same prime/timeline.

I will say it if you take out the playoff numbers of Durant/Curry when they have been on the same team it really gets interesting. If you consider how much freedom you get playing with another MVP, a top shooter/SG in the game, and a DPOY who can space/handle/pass... Well of course efficiency wise KD/Curry might be better.

Curry in 15/16 playoffs (with Kerr/as MVP so best years): 112 ortg, 36.7 points, 8.0 assists, 7.2 rebounds per 100. (gets slightly more efficient to 113 ortg if you include 14 as well but lower volume)
Durant in 12-16 playoffs (includes best year/finals run): 112 ortg, 35.9 points, 5.0 assists, 9.9 rebounds per 100

Harden on Rockets in playoffs as the man: 111 ortg, 35.8 points, 9.1 assists, 7.1 rebounds per 100.

Essentially when not surrounded by insane levels of talent we have never seen before in the nba (and arguably still in better situations than Harden earlier time on rockets etc) we can see these guys are somewhat comparable in their playoff efficiency/volume.

valade16
01-02-2019, 05:04 PM
ya I say Curry but the titles are not really comparable given the situations. I still remember when Curry was argued as best player in the league and better than Lebron. Now we are arguing if he is better than someone who's probably not going to be in the top 15 all time who shares the same prime/timeline.

I will say it if you take out the playoff numbers of Durant/Curry when they have been on the same team it really gets interesting. If you consider how much freedom you get playing with another MVP, a top shooter/SG in the game, and a DPOY who can space/handle/pass... Well of course efficiency wise KD/Curry might be better.

Curry in 15/16 playoffs (with Kerr/as MVP so best years): 112 ortg, 36.7 points, 8.0 assists, 7.2 rebounds per 100. (gets slightly more efficient to 113 ortg if you include 14 as well but lower volume)
Durant in 12-16 playoffs (includes best year/finals run): 112 ortg, 35.9 points, 5.0 assists, 9.9 rebounds per 100

Harden on Rockets in playoffs as the man: 111 ortg, 35.8 points, 9.1 assists, 7.1 rebounds per 100.

Essentially when not surrounded by insane levels of talent we have never seen before in the nba (and arguably still in better situations than Harden earlier time on rockets etc) we can see these guys are somewhat comparable in their playoff efficiency/volume.

By those stats yes, but by others:

Curry 23.6 PER | .605 TS% | .196 WS/48 | 7.7 BPM
Harden 23.1 PER | .570 TS% | .156 WS/48 | 6.7 BPM

Basically although Curry has a slight lead in literally every stat except assists per 100 in this comparison, it's one of those cases where the volume of stats where he's slightly ahead makes it obvious he's ahead.

Hawkeye15
01-02-2019, 05:11 PM
But to my point: where do you have Magic ranked and where do you have CP3 ranked all-time? Do you have them both in the same place and if not, what am I missing to explain the discrepancy?

I struggle with Magic. I do think winning multiple titles is going to absolutely leapfrog your career. But I don't think a single title means you just jump other players near you either. I honestly put CP3 around 20, and Magic around 7-8. But I also admit that what Magic did for the game, and what he was, helps his ranking.

But context, again. Clearly we give Magic credit for winning, despite ignoring he had minimal competition out west during his career. Paul never enjoyed that luxury. Yet, here I am contradicting myself with my rankings. Winning does matter, but losing while balling out matters too. At the very least, winning gives us lasting memories of a player. Losing in the 1st round most years does not.

valade16
01-02-2019, 05:18 PM
I struggle with Magic. I do think winning multiple titles is going to absolutely leapfrog your career. But I don't think a single title means you just jump other players near you either. I honestly put CP3 around 20, and Magic around 7-8. But I also admit that what Magic did for the game, and what he was, helps his ranking.

But context, again. Clearly we give Magic credit for winning, despite ignoring he had minimal competition out west during his career. Paul never enjoyed that luxury. Yet, here I am contradicting myself with my rankings. Winning does matter, but losing while balling out matters too. At the very least, winning gives us lasting memories of a player. Losing in the 1st round most years does not.

And I wasn't trying to pick on you for your rankings or say you're a hypocrite because I don't believe it's possible to rank players without the bias of Championships, even if it's only on a subconscious level. You could make a strong case that CP3 > Magic and nobody would ever make that case because you don't want to be the guy trying to argue a guy with 0 rings is somehow better than a guy with 5.

Hawkeye15
01-02-2019, 05:30 PM
And I wasn't trying to pick on you for your rankings or say you're a hypocrite because I don't believe it's possible to rank players without the bias of Championships, even if it's only on a subconscious level. You could make a strong case that CP3 > Magic and nobody would ever make that case because you don't want to be the guy trying to argue a guy with 0 rings is somehow better than a guy with 5.

when the ring discrepancy is outlandish, I agree. If Magic had 1-2 rings and some failures, I think the case can be made Paul is better. So it goes back to, 1 ring would only matter in Harden's case if he was balling out winning it. Dr J gets literally zero legacy credit from me for his ring for example.

IKnowHoops
01-02-2019, 05:34 PM
KL has too limited a playoff sample as the offensive star against top teams for me. KD we have seen come up short big time in the playoffs with OKC multiple times, but his 1v1 game does lend itself better than almost anyone else in last minute possessions, so he benefits big in that role (which leaves a big impression). And with Lebron I agree, though not without his monumental collapses as well obviously.

A collapse 10 years ago

IKnowHoops
01-02-2019, 05:34 PM
Based on what? Body of work matters

Last 2-3 years Iím talking...to represent current top 3 players

IKnowHoops
01-02-2019, 05:36 PM
https://sports.yahoo.com/james-harden-scored-43-points-192202228.html

Just crazy

IKnowHoops
01-02-2019, 05:37 PM
I think had Karl Malone won say both the Finals he went to yeah he'd probably be looked at near the Top 10 as opposed to end of Top 20. I think if Barkley won say 3 titles people would consider him clear cut #2 pf All-time instead of an essentially 4 way tie.

I think if say Kobe had zero titles he's not Top 10.

Fair or not, it definitely matters.

Kobe isnít too 10

IKnowHoops
01-02-2019, 05:42 PM
well yeah, if a player is better we look at them as......better. My point is, a title doesn't automatically make you better. Sorry. If that makes a player better in the eyes of drone fans, so be it, but I don't subscribe to that.

Your second half of the post, yes, that is literally what I have said 3 times now in this fkin thread.

Agreed....

We could say if Stockton/Maloneís teammates were a bit better to propel them to 3 championships than Malone is top 3...but that ainít right. If Brons teammates were a bit better and he had 9 rings now, heíd be unquestioned GOAT. Doesnít make sense though if heís still the exact same player

valade16
01-02-2019, 05:43 PM
Kobe isnít too 10

I don't have Kobe Top 10 but I think he's probably in general Top 10 by most people.

IKnowHoops
01-02-2019, 05:55 PM
I don't have Kobe Top 10 but I think he's probably in general Top 10 by most people.

Nothing statistical accept ring count would put Kobe over Wade/Durant/Drob/KG. Iím not down with that. All those guys have 4 rings playing with Prime Shaq

valade16
01-02-2019, 05:58 PM
Nothing statistical accept ring count would put Kobe over Wade/Durant/Drob/KG. Iím not down with that. All those guys have 4 rings playing with Prime Shaq

Even if I agree, good luck finding any list outside a few personal lists here on PSD that actually have D-Rob or KG or Wade over Kobe. Whether we think rings are a stupid factor in evaluating a player, there's no denying it is a factor for most.

mightybosstone
01-02-2019, 06:02 PM
i feel like with this thread and the is harden a superstar thread its piss off MBT day :laugh2:
:laugh: On PSD, I feel like every day is "Piss Off MBT Day."


MBT is your baby born yet?
Nope, but we're getting there. The due date is Feb. 23. Definitely getting excited!

Jamiecballer
01-02-2019, 06:20 PM
I'd take Harden

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Jamiecballer
01-02-2019, 06:21 PM
He has also beasted under that same criteria. I mostly pick Harden because we haven't seen Curry lead teams to anything bad or good. He is amazing, but simply part of the machine. Harden IS the machine for his team most of the time.

Again, not worth the fight, but Curry does indeed get hurt for having SO much help.Absolutely spot on.

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Redrum187
01-02-2019, 07:13 PM
Somewhat off topic, but a more interesting legacy debate might be this: Could Harden feasibly surpass Wade historically if he never wins a title? You could make a really strong case that Harden has already surpassed Wade as a player. Stats say he has, and he does things on the court Wade was simply never capable of. But that one epic postseason run in 2006 gives Wade a trump card that Harden doesn't have.

If Harden won multiple MVPs and continues to put up absurd production, is there a point where he passes Wade without any rings whatsoever? Or is there nothing Harden could possibly do outside of a title to pass Wade?

It's possible considering Wade's 2006 Finals run has a huge asterisk on it. Tim Donaghy even implicated the 2006 Finals series along with the 2011 series (fortunately Dirk was the greatest player on the planet during that summer and won anyways).

What I find eerily similar is Wade and Harden's game. Miami fans hate James Harden for doing what Wade did, but praise Wade for it. I get being a homer, but it is possible to cheer for a team and be objective.

Dirk didn't need to win in 2011 to be considered the #2 best PF of all time... he essentially cemented himself as that when he carried the Mavericks with Josh Howard and Erick Dampier to the finals in 2006 only to be robbed of the title by the refs. Dirk's postseason numbers have always been better than his regular season numbers, one of the few players to be this way. Dirk winning in 2011 should auto-make him clear cut #2 for all fans of the game, at least it is for me.

Redrum187
01-02-2019, 07:16 PM
Putting my hatred of Wade aside and being objective, I think Wade was miles better defensively than Harden was offensively by comparison. Harden has A LOT of work to do in order to pass Wade, and pushing 30, I don't see it as likely.

Redrum187
01-02-2019, 07:22 PM
As for Curry vs Harden... Without a doubt Curry... This is almost as silly as asking if James Harden is a superstar. Nothing against Harden's skill, he is extremely talented and gifted, but to someone who doesn't cheer for either player this isn't much of a debate.

Someone said "you are what your numbers are"... No, sorry, that doesn't mean that the person with better raw numbers is superior... he might be more productive but more production DOES NOT mean one is superior. There are MANY variables that affect production values. It's lazy and silly to say because Player A has better raw numbers, he is superior to player B without looking at context.

Jamiecballer
01-02-2019, 07:25 PM
But to my point: where do you have Magic ranked and where do you have CP3 ranked all-time? Do you have them both in the same place and if not, what am I missing to explain the discrepancy?Right, but it sounds like you are treating popular opinion as some sort of unquestioned authority when it's not. 15 years ago people thought AI was a god. Opinions change, even popular opinion evolves.

It sounds almost like your discussion with Hawk is like "hey man, I'm a highly evolved being like you, I'd love to say titles shouldn't be a huge part of the criteria, but the lists, man, the lists. My hands are tied here".

You dont have to use ****** criteria if you dont want to :)

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valade16
01-02-2019, 07:33 PM
Right, but it sounds like you are treating popular opinion as some sort of unquestioned authority when it's not. 15 years ago people thought AI was a god. Opinions change, even popular opinion evolves.

It sounds almost like your discussion with Hawk is like "hey man, I'm a highly evolved being like you, I'd love to say titles shouldn't be a huge part of the criteria, but the lists, man, the lists. My hands are tied here".

You dont have to use ****** criteria if you dont want to :)

Tell that to Hawkeye, he's the one despite knowing that CP3's numbers are better than Magic's, still has Magic comfortably ahead of CP3...

My point is, everyone factors in rings when ranking players all-time, even if only on a subconscious level. I'd imagine if I asked you to list your Top 10 players ever, they would all have multiple rings would they not?

It's difficult for me to take anyone who says rings don't factor into their analysis seriously when their lists happen to be skewed heavily towards people with rings (and I'm not taking a shot at you, I'm saying this applies to everyone).

Giannis94
01-02-2019, 08:52 PM
I hate harden for being a ***** but I would take him over curry.

Question is how far off Westy is from either of these two.

Redrum187
01-02-2019, 09:17 PM
I hate harden for being a ***** but I would take him over curry.

Question is how far off Westy is from either of these two.

Quite comfortably. Giannis is closer to these 2 than Westy is (not even being sarcastic).

mngopher35
01-02-2019, 10:07 PM
By those stats yes, but by others:

Curry 23.6 PER | .605 TS% | .196 WS/48 | 7.7 BPM
Harden 23.1 PER | .570 TS% | .156 WS/48 | 6.7 BPM

Basically although Curry has a slight lead in literally every stat except assists per 100 in this comparison, it's one of those cases where the volume of stats where he's slightly ahead makes it obvious he's ahead.

What? Curry has had better teams helping him is part of it has been the point yet Harden is still right there mostly but a little less efficient in turn. WS will obviously favor GS compared to the dwight howard teams for example, do you think his support plays a part in that stat (and if so why would it matter if that is part of my point, separating the team)? TS% is taken into account in the ORTG already mentioned but broader including more, yes efficiency is Curry's edge. PER has them similar and BPM favors Curry by the most significant of margin of the stats but still being a more efficient player etc. can help explain it/I said he was my pick and this stat might be getting at part of the reason.

I still don't get how this would tell a story of very different players. Everything except BPM/WS for overall numbers (one of which I think is easily explained given teams) is pretty similar and this is with Curry having the advantage of a better situation. I am not making any claim about Harden actually being better just that the idea he is some massive choker compared to Curry has more to do with team support than them being far different in ability.

Curry is better, Harden isnt far off especially when you take away the advantage in their support and focus on individuals (my post started by saying the answer is Curry to me haha). Hardens numbers are similar for the most part come playoff time and when you consider the talent around each it can help explain why Curry's might be boosted a little more than his (efficiency wise) too.

mngopher35
01-02-2019, 10:35 PM
Tell that to Hawkeye, he's the one despite knowing that CP3's numbers are better than Magic's, still has Magic comfortably ahead of CP3...

My point is, everyone factors in rings when ranking players all-time, even if only on a subconscious level. I'd imagine if I asked you to list your Top 10 players ever, they would all have multiple rings would they not?

It's difficult for me to take anyone who says rings don't factor into their analysis seriously when their lists happen to be skewed heavily towards people with rings (and I'm not taking a shot at you, I'm saying this applies to everyone).

Gotta be comparing within eras for it to be specific/work like that even on a basic level. I mean think of all the advanced knowledge/different coaching/new styles etc. to be more efficient. Tons of lesser players today will have better stats than previous eras I bet.

How many times were each leading playoffs in BPM etc and how often for Paul was it only in first round those numbers held so high (aka when he made it further he was dropping off or not sustaining success)? That type of context matters and I bet it starts paining Magic better.

I do get what you are saying and it is partially right I think but as much as possible it should be avoided. Make your case based on the individuals not team success.

Hawkeye15
01-02-2019, 10:46 PM
Tell that to Hawkeye, he's the one despite knowing that CP3's numbers are better than Magic's, still has Magic comfortably ahead of CP3...

My point is, everyone factors in rings when ranking players all-time, even if only on a subconscious level. I'd imagine if I asked you to list your Top 10 players ever, they would all have multiple rings would they not?

It's difficult for me to take anyone who says rings don't factor into their analysis seriously when their lists happen to be skewed heavily towards people with rings (and I'm not taking a shot at you, I'm saying this applies to everyone).

I think I actually rank players on their impact as a player and their career differently at times. CP3 is as good as Magic. But Magic's career was better. Your rank comes from your career, which unfortunately weighs factors out of an individuals control. I feel it's the only way to fairly rank an individual. As a player specifically and their career as far as how it's viewed by merit. They can be exclusive of one another. But only by fans who are educated. Most drones simply care about the career because it's an easy, lazy way to do it.

tredigs
01-02-2019, 10:58 PM
Interesting how many people here think Curry's stats look better the more the talent and with KD. That's just factually wrong. And man I would give anything to see him able to put up the historically high usage percentages that Harden sees. We can argue the durability factor, but he just spent the bulk of the last half decade completely healthy and was initially slowed last year by his own player blindside kamikazeing into his knee. I'm willing to bet if you give Curry that big of a green light where he knows the team wants him to be the playmaker or shooter on every posswssion, a lot of records would fall. Harden on the Warriors I can guarantee is far less impressive than Curry.

More-Than-Most
01-02-2019, 11:57 PM
its close but currently its harden... Sorry Harden at least tries to be an alpha... Harden has never been the 2nd best player on his team on the rockets.. Curry isnt even the best player on his team.

tredigs
01-03-2019, 12:03 AM
its close but currently its harden... Sorry Harden at least tries to be an alpha... Harden has never been the 2nd best player on his team on the rockets.. Curry isnt even the best player on his team.

Obviously ironic and stupid statement for reasons that don't need to be spelled out.

COOLbeans
01-03-2019, 12:32 AM
is a title pushing him past Barkley? Would a title have propelled Barkley up 4-5 more spots into the top 10? Does Dr J get a few spots additional because of his title?

I think yes. Because if Barkley wins multiple titles then he goes through Isaiah, Hakeem, Michael and Bird to get them. This makes his ranking higher, naturally

COOLbeans
01-03-2019, 12:34 AM
The Rockets have a super team, all time actually. They have a top 10/ top 5 PG and top 8/ top 5 SG All Time. Thereís no excuse barring injury that they shouldnít win the title. Anything less is a failure and legacy indicting

mightybosstone
01-03-2019, 12:43 AM
The Rockets have a super team, all time actually. They have a top 10/ top 5 PG and top 8/ top 5 SG All Time. Thereís no excuse barring injury that they shouldnít win the title. Anything less is a failure and legacy indicting

So we're just going to ignore that the Warriors have a top 5 all-time SF, a top 5 all-time PG and two other future Hall of Famers all at their peaks? Seems legit. :eyebrow:

More-Than-Most
01-03-2019, 12:55 AM
Obviously ironic and stupid statement for reasons that don't need to be spelled out.

when a team steps on the court to defend the rockets its 100 percent all about stopping james harden and he is still offensively better than curry when the other team is doubling and focusing all on him.... Curry isnt close to the unstoppable offensive force... If you put these 2 guys on lets say the worst team in basketball do you honestly think curry leads that team to more wins? Not even hate on curry because he is amazing but its impossible for a team to focus in on him like they do harden because they have to guard the 2nd best player in the sport and then 2 of the best 3 point shooters ever in curry and klay... Its the same thing with lebron... Harden/Lebron can do far more with less where is curry can do the most with the most because of his shooting.

Harden is the better player where is curry is in a situation where he never has to defend or be a good defender while being in a situation where he can never be double teamed. I hate harden far far far more than I hate curry but its silly how we dont use logic.. Harden has the statistical output as well as the logical reasoning when you factor in the help on both teams to go along with the skill sets.

tredigs
01-03-2019, 01:24 AM
when a team steps on the court to defend the rockets its 100 percent all about stopping james harden and he is still offensively better than curry when the other team is doubling and focusing all on him.... Curry isnt close to the unstoppable offensive force... If you put these 2 guys on lets say the worst team in basketball do you honestly think curry leads that team to more wins? Not even hate on curry because he is amazing but its impossible for a team to focus in on him like they do harden because they have to guard the 2nd best player in the sport and then 2 of the best 3 point shooters ever in curry and klay... Its the same thing with lebron... Harden/Lebron can do far more with less where is curry can do the most with the most because of his shooting.

Harden is the better player where is curry is in a situation where he never has to defend or be a good defender while being in a situation where he can never be double teamed. I hate harden far far far more than I hate curry but its silly how we dont use logic.. Harden has the statistical output as well as the logical reasoning when you factor in the help on both teams to go along with the skill sets.

I don't even know where to start with the nonsense and hyperbole and outright ignorance of this post. It's bad, MTM.

Redrum187
01-03-2019, 01:26 AM
its close but currently its harden... Sorry Harden at least tries to be an alpha... Harden has never been the 2nd best player on his team on the rockets.. Curry isnt even the best player on his team.

So if LeBron James and Stephen Curry played on the same team, Luka Doncic would be better than Stephen Curry because "Luka at least tries to be an alpha... Luka has never been the 2nd best player on his team on the Mavericks... Curry isn't even the best player on his team."????? That is pretty flawed logic to say the least.

By the way, Curry is the best player on the Warriors. The guy you're claiming is better than Curry is the one who didn't want to be an "alpha" and joined a 70+ win team that he choked a 3-1 lead to in the playoffs. Your logic even contradicts itself.

More-Than-Most
01-03-2019, 02:14 AM
So if LeBron James and Stephen Curry played on the same team, Luka Doncic would be better than Stephen Curry because "Luka at least tries to be an alpha... Luka has never been the 2nd best player on his team on the Mavericks... Curry isn't even the best player on his team."????? That is pretty flawed logic to say the least.

By the way, Curry is the best player on the Warriors. The guy you're claiming is better than Curry is the one who didn't want to be an "alpha" and joined a 70+ win team that he choked a 3-1 lead to in the playoffs. Your logic even contradicts itself.

is luka a top 5 player? A dude you speak of not wanting to be the alpha did everything while winning back to back finals MVP and never lost an MVP to iggy might I add.

More-Than-Most
01-03-2019, 02:16 AM
I don't even know where to start with the nonsense and hyperbole and outright ignorance of this post. It's bad, MTM.

who do you think is easier to defend if placed on the worst team in basketball?

curry
lebron
harden


Just curious. If literally the other team just flat out focuses on said player who could beat double and or triple teams or carry a team with no talent around them?

Tg11
01-03-2019, 08:00 AM
No way is Harden better than Curry...if you mean statistically right now of course he is but who is the better shooter let's be very honest? Curry is most definitely and it doesn't matter how many guys you throw in front of him or anywhere he is on the court if he manages to get his shot off...99.9% of the time it goes in. If teams scheme for Harden on defense he is still effective but not as effective. Not to mention all time head to head matchups Curry has proven he's better than Harden when it matters.

Harden yeah he's awesome in the regular season I'm not denying that but come playoff time when it really matters under real pressure Harden cannot get the job done. Curry in the regular season he's as good as he can be but in the playoffs he usually turns it on all the time no matter the opponent in a playoff series. Hell, Curry has more Finals wins and appearances than Harden combined.

Defensively, Curry is also better than Harden.

More-Than-Most
01-03-2019, 08:39 AM
No way is Harden better than Curry...if you mean statistically right now of course he is but who is the better shooter let's be very honest? Curry is most definitely and it doesn't matter how many guys you throw in front of him or anywhere he is on the court if he manages to get his shot off...99.9% of the time it goes in. If teams scheme for Harden on defense he is still effective but not as effective. Not to mention all time head to head matchups Curry has proven he's better than Harden when it matters.

Harden yeah he's awesome in the regular season I'm not denying that but come playoff time when it really matters under real pressure Harden cannot get the job done. Curry in the regular season he's as good as he can be but in the playoffs he usually turns it on all the time no matter the opponent in a playoff series. Hell, Curry has more Finals wins and appearances than Harden combined.

Defensively, Curry is also better than Harden.

um

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/curryst01.html


cut that in half and take away a few first... more like 48 pct at best... As for everything else curry proves to be better ON A LEGENDARY TEAM lmfao. Jesus christ. He literally had a bench ****ing player win mvp from him.

ManningToTyree
01-03-2019, 08:51 AM
Curry


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Rivera
01-03-2019, 10:10 AM
:laugh: On PSD, I feel like every day is "Piss Off MBT Day."


Nope, but we're getting there. The due date is Feb. 23. Definitely getting excited!

enjoy it man, its the best feeling in the world. it gets tiring to and sucks for sure. but when that day comes man, im excited for the feeling your gonna get

if you need any advice let me know hahaha. we just had our first child 4 months ago #newdads

Htownballa1622
01-03-2019, 10:20 AM
enjoy it man, its the best feeling in the world. it gets tiring to and sucks for sure. but when that day comes man, im excited for the feeling your gonna get

if you need any advice let me know hahaha. we just had our first child 4 months ago #newdads

My son was born September 13th. (3 weeks earlier than due date)

You're not lying. I haven't watched an entire Rockets game live at home all season. I've been to two Rockets games and watched those live(wins against Blazers/Lakers).

Enjoy free time now, MBT. I enjoy going out to get my wife takeout for the brief 20 mins alone in my car at times lol. BUT, there's nothing like seeing your child smile back at you. :)

Hawkeye15
01-03-2019, 11:07 AM
I think yes. Because if Barkley wins multiple titles then he goes through Isaiah, Hakeem, Michael and Bird to get them. This makes his ranking higher, naturally

A title. 1 title. All I hear around here or in general is, "they never won". So if they won a title, do they suddenly leapfrog guys? Of course winning multiple titles helps, it means you were probably better than you were...

Hawkeye15
01-03-2019, 11:10 AM
enjoy it man, its the best feeling in the world. it gets tiring to and sucks for sure. but when that day comes man, im excited for the feeling your gonna get

if you need any advice let me know hahaha. we just had our first child 4 months ago #newdads

Yeah I have a 21 month old. I missed most the Wolves season last year because of her, and the fact I didn't like watching iso ball till the eyes bleed. But having a kid, at least for the first few years until they can sit and watch sports with you, will make you miss a LOT of games. Is what it is. Or you could be a douche and make the wife/gf handle bedtime everynight while you watch your team play a childs game...

Hawkeye15
01-03-2019, 11:11 AM
My son was born September 13th. (3 weeks earlier than due date)

You're not lying. I haven't watched an entire Rockets game live at home all season. I've been to two Rockets games and watched those live(wins against Blazers/Lakers).

Enjoy free time now, MBT. I enjoy going out to get my wife takeout for the brief 20 mins alone in my car at times lol. BUT, there's nothing like seeing your child smile back at you. :)

oh for sure, it's worth missing a ton of games for your kid. Sorry, it's a sport, that you have literally nothing to do with. It will still be there in a few years when you want to return to it as a religion..

Rivera
01-03-2019, 11:12 AM
My son was born September 13th. (3 weeks earlier than due date)

You're not lying. I haven't watched an entire Rockets game live at home all season. I've been to two Rockets games and watched those live(wins against Blazers/Lakers).

Enjoy free time now, MBT. I enjoy going out to get my wife takeout for the brief 20 mins alone in my car at times lol. BUT, there's nothing like seeing your child smile back at you. :)

bro you aint lying. no free time, when you think yes the baby is sleeping, boom, crying or moaning. like ugh haha but when the baby smiles at you back, its like some undescribable feeling of joy.

seriously MBT, enjoy your free time now. cause you wont have it once the baby comes :laugh2:

htown, we are in the "we dont spend any more time with each other and we do everything with the baby phase" in my relationship :laugh2: i had no idea that was a thing ! :laugh2:

kdspurman
01-03-2019, 11:26 AM
Yeah I have a 21 month old. I missed most the Wolves season last year because of her, and the fact I didn't like watching iso ball till the eyes bleed. But having a kid, at least for the first few years until they can sit and watch sports with you, will make you miss a LOT of games. Is what it is. Or you could be a douche and make the wife/gf handle bedtime everynight while you watch your team play a childs game...

I've got a 2 year old (and a 9 year old, but he's in his own world most of the time lol) My 2 year old tends to be a night owl, has been since he was in the womb. So many times, I'm watching the game and he sits next to me watching or playing with his stuff. So I'm sort of lucky in that regard... But there are times where I gotta DVR

Rivera
01-03-2019, 11:36 AM
Yeah I have a 21 month old. I missed most the Wolves season last year because of her, and the fact I didn't like watching iso ball till the eyes bleed. But having a kid, at least for the first few years until they can sit and watch sports with you, will make you miss a LOT of games. Is what it is. Or you could be a douche and make the wife/gf handle bedtime everynight while you watch your team play a childs game...

im lucky in the sense, i turned my girl into a sports fan. so much of a sports fan, i came home from a saturday shift and she was watching Wisconsin Rutgers (im pretty sure it was those 2) :laugh2:

my 4 month old already has her dallas cowboys dress, a red sox dress and is already trained to like sports. like we literally will put football or basketball in the room to help her fall asleep :laugh2:

Hawkeye15
01-03-2019, 11:40 AM
im lucky in the sense, i turned my girl into a sports fan. so much of a sports fan, i came home from a saturday shift and she was watching Wisconsin Rutgers (im pretty sure it was those 2) :laugh2:

my 4 month old already has her dallas cowboys dress, a red sox dress and is already trained to like sports. like we literally will put football or basketball in the room to help her fall asleep :laugh2:

My wife HATES basketball. She is a hockey fan. So it's a struggle. But, I honestly don't care as much about the NBA as I used to. Hell when I watch teams now I don't even know half the players anymore. I used to know every player in the league.

My wife likes sports, but has zero attention span. Except for softball. Which is the WORST sport to watch, period. It's a relentless cheerfest with girls who look like burritos. Her 2 older daughters play. God I hope ours doesn't..

Hawkeye15
01-03-2019, 11:41 AM
I've got a 2 year old (and a 9 year old, but he's in his own world most of the time lol) My 2 year old tends to be a night owl, has been since he was in the womb. So many times, I'm watching the game and he sits next to me watching or playing with his stuff. So I'm sort of lucky in that regard... But there are times where I gotta DVR

pretty much as optimal as it gets. Daughter goes to bed at 8pm sharp, so I do get to see the 2nd half of any game I want typically. If I care enough.

Hawkeye15
01-03-2019, 11:43 AM
bro you aint lying. no free time, when you think yes the baby is sleeping, boom, crying or moaning. like ugh haha but when the baby smiles at you back, its like some undescribable feeling of joy.

seriously MBT, enjoy your free time now. cause you wont have it once the baby comes :laugh2:

htown, we are in the "we dont spend any more time with each other and we do everything with the baby phase" in my relationship :laugh2: i had no idea that was a thing ! :laugh2:

it gets better. Wait till it starts misbehaving. Then you will like breaks now and then.

Htownballa1622
01-03-2019, 12:24 PM
bro you aint lying. no free time, when you think yes the baby is sleeping, boom, crying or moaning. like ugh haha but when the baby smiles at you back, its like some undescribable feeling of joy.

seriously MBT, enjoy your free time now. cause you wont have it once the baby comes :laugh2:

htown, we are in the "we dont spend any more time with each other and we do everything with the baby phase" in my relationship :laugh2: i had no idea that was a thing ! :laugh2:

DUDE! People told me about the lack of sleep or free time but no one mentioned to me about the struggle of that part. My wife and I are more like teammates right now. We went to one of the Rockets games and we left middle of 4th quarter because we wanted to get back not too late for the baby/sitter. lol

Htownballa1622
01-03-2019, 12:27 PM
oh for sure, it's worth missing a ton of games for your kid. Sorry, it's a sport, that you have literally nothing to do with. It will still be there in a few years when you want to return to it as a religion..

Haha. Very true. I still find time to listen to podcast in car or check twitter in the restroom lol. My wife will tell me, "please leave your phone while you go to the restroom." :laugh2:

Otherwise, I get to reading articles, etc...

mightybosstone
01-03-2019, 01:34 PM
enjoy it man, its the best feeling in the world. it gets tiring to and sucks for sure. but when that day comes man, im excited for the feeling your gonna get

if you need any advice let me know hahaha. we just had our first child 4 months ago #newdads

Thanks, man! And congrats on the new baby!


My son was born September 13th. (3 weeks earlier than due date)

You're not lying. I haven't watched an entire Rockets game live at home all season. I've been to two Rockets games and watched those live(wins against Blazers/Lakers).

Enjoy free time now, MBT. I enjoy going out to get my wife takeout for the brief 20 mins alone in my car at times lol. BUT, there's nothing like seeing your child smile back at you. :)

Yeah, I definitely get the sense that I'm in for a rude awakening. I'm taking like a month off for paternity leave, and I keep telling my wife things we could feasibly get done around the house while we're both off. But the more I talk to people, the less I feel like I'm going to accomplish much of anything over that month.

Still, I'm just looking forward to a month at home with my wife and son. Even if it's exhausting, I'm really pumped for him to get here.

Hawkeye15
01-03-2019, 04:30 PM
Thanks, man! And congrats on the new baby!



Yeah, I definitely get the sense that I'm in for a rude awakening. I'm taking like a month off for paternity leave, and I keep telling my wife things we could feasibly get done around the house while we're both off. But the more I talk to people, the less I feel like I'm going to accomplish much of anything over that month.

Still, I'm just looking forward to a month at home with my wife and son. Even if it's exhausting, I'm really pumped for him to get here.

honestly man, outside the fact that newborns don't sleep for more than a few hours at a time, they are so easy unless they are colicky (spelling). SO easy.

Chronz
01-03-2019, 04:34 PM
What's the worst series curry has ever performed in?

valade16
01-03-2019, 04:40 PM
What's the worst series curry has ever performed in?

I would think the Finals where Iggy won MVP right?

FlashBolt
01-03-2019, 04:51 PM
What's the worst series curry has ever performed in?

Easily the 2016 NBA Finals. You could make a case he was the fourth best player in that series at a time where he was getting recognition as the best player in the MVP and just won unanimous MVP.

c.c.
01-03-2019, 05:21 PM
Iíve been ignoring this thread but I canít no more.

If you switch Harden to the Warriors and switch Curry to the Rockets then what will be your result?

Curry is a great player and the best shooter EVER at the PG position.

The system they play in and the supporting cast around them plays a big part in their team success (for the ring talk folks).

While not trying to be a homer, I choose Harden.

FlashBolt
01-03-2019, 05:53 PM
Iíve been ignoring this thread but I canít no more.

If you switch Harden to the Warriors and switch Curry to the Rockets then what will be your result?

Curry is a great player and the best shooter EVER at the PG position.

The system they play in and the supporting cast around them plays a big part in their team success (for the ring talk folks).

While not trying to be a homer, I choose Harden.

This is just unfair to Curry, honestly. He's a large part of why that system became what it is today. They were losers with Monta Ellis chucking up shots when Curry got there to being a 73 win team. He won the MVP unanimously for a reason. It's easy to say, "well, he's in a great system" while also ignoring that Curry is the major contributor for that system. You simply can't switch players when Harden is accustomed to the system and so is Curry. That takes years to adjust to. It's not like taking a few numbers from a mathematical equation and calculating a different answer. How do you quantify the difference just by imaging a hypothetical scenario? Here's what I know: The Warriors were a crappy team when Curry got there. Within a few years, they were legitimate title contenders and won the most NBA games in a regular season. Curry's offensive output and efficiency (for the regular season) surpassed even MJ and won him unanimous MVP at a time where LeBron and Durant were still at their prime. I think you're being unfair here in what Curry has achieved. I don't like Curry's playoff performances as well but there is no question Curry deserves a huge bulk of what the Warriors have become today. The Warriors didn't become the Warriors until Ellis was booted off and Curry took the charge.

Redrum187
01-03-2019, 06:18 PM
is luka a top 5 player? A dude you speak of not wanting to be the alpha did everything while winning back to back finals MVP and never lost an MVP to iggy might I add.

Being a top 5 player was not a pre-req in your post. You used terrible measurements to decide that Harden was superior to Curry is my point. Even if Curry was 5th best player on his team, as long as he has his current skillset he is still better than Harden. I'm not convinced Curry's production is below his unanimous MVP year because he has "fallen off" or he "doesn't want to be the alpha". Nothing leads me to believe that when Kevin Durant is the glaring obvious and logical explanation for it.

As for your point that Iggy/Durant won FMVP over Curry, I mean, Charles Barkley outperformed Michael Jordan on the 1992 Dream Team, does that mean Barkley is superior to Jordan? Furthermore, why even point that out when Harden clearly hasn't won FMVP either? Your points are very lazy and juvenile honestly.

tredigs
01-03-2019, 09:56 PM
I would think the Finals where Iggy won MVP right?
Lmao. Fellas. He was easily the Warriors best and most important player of the series. Constantly trapped at 35 feet out and managed the top scoring 4th quarter in Finals history twice in that series. Iguodala was hitting the WIDE open shots afforded to him as a direct result of Curry. That was the Cavs entire game plan. Hint: didn't work.

More-Than-Most
01-04-2019, 02:14 AM
go watch the warriors/rockets and close this thread... one guy just destroyed the warriors while being double teamed all night and the other guy played robin to durants batman who couldnt be double teamed because of batman.

More-Than-Most
01-04-2019, 02:18 AM
Lmao. Fellas. He was easily the Warriors best and most important player of the series. Constantly trapped at 35 feet out and managed the top scoring 4th quarter in Finals history twice in that series. Iguodala was hitting the WIDE open shots afforded to him as a direct result of Curry. That was the Cavs entire game plan. Hint: didn't work.

one guy had to defend lebron james... the other guy stood around on defense trying to stop a delly

FlashBolt
01-04-2019, 02:27 AM
one guy had to defend lebron james... the other guy stood around on defense trying to stop a delly

Curry had zero Finals MVP votes. Nada. Zip. LeBron had more votes than him. I have no idea why people are polishing the narrative that Curry deserved it.

mightybosstone
01-04-2019, 02:28 AM
I realize it's a one-game sample size, but I'm feeling pretty damn good about this whole Harden vs. Curry debate right about now.

FlashBolt
01-04-2019, 02:32 AM
I realize it's a one-game sample size, but I'm feeling pretty damn good about this whole Harden vs. Curry debate right about now.

Yeah, tonight has made me rethink this one. Giving slight edge to Curry but man, Harden was a monster.

Htownballa1622
01-04-2019, 02:52 AM
I'm more upset we couldn't see a harden/curry duel because that ***** ***** snake ruined it. Get him off that squad so we could really see who's better because curry defers too much for my liking with the snake.

IKnowHoops
01-04-2019, 03:12 AM
Lmao. Fellas. He was easily the Warriors best and most important player of the series. Constantly trapped at 35 feet out and managed the top scoring 4th quarter in Finals history twice in that series. Iguodala was hitting the WIDE open shots afforded to him as a direct result of Curry. That was the Cavs entire game plan. Hint: didn't work.

Lol, you forgot that Love and Kyrie missed the series. I think that had a bit more to do with the loss than Curry being trapped 35 feet out.

Redrum187
01-04-2019, 04:00 AM
Finals Most Valuable Player

If someone built a flux capacitor and assassinated Iguodala, would GSW still win the championship? Eh, maybe or maybe not, I'll concede it would be a toss up.

If someone built a flux capacitor and assassinated Curry, would GSW still win the championship? Absolutely not. Anyone who says maybe is lying to themself and clearly not being objective.

That isn't to say Iguodala wasn't important, that is to say that while the defense he put on LeBron was much needed, the most valuable piece was still Curry. He put up numbers that were subpar by his standard but clearly better than Iggy's even taking into account Iggy's defense.

I say this and I am secretly glad Curry DIDN'T win FMVP... I'll repeat, the hater in me wanted Curry to lose out on FMVP because people were saying how Curry is better than LeBron now. I never thought Curry was better than LeBron and so I was pleasantly happy Curry didn't win out of spite. Nevertheless, putting my objectivity hat on and throwing my hater hat away, Curry should have won no matter how you slice it. I just won't be crying about it.

Saddletramp
01-04-2019, 05:04 AM
Curry had zero Finals MVP votes. Nada. Zip. LeBron had more votes than him. I have no idea why people are polishing the narrative that Curry deserved it.

Oh, I know why. At least from Treís perspective.

Chrisclover
01-04-2019, 06:20 AM
For me, both have the complete skillset of a superstar. However, Curry is too weak body-wise and injury-prone, while Harden is much stronger.

More-Than-Most
01-04-2019, 06:23 AM
Finals Most Valuable Player

If someone built a flux capacitor and assassinated Iguodala, would GSW still win the championship? Eh, maybe or maybe not, I'll concede it would be a toss up.

If someone built a flux capacitor and assassinated Curry, would GSW still win the championship? Absolutely not. Anyone who says maybe is lying to themself and clearly not being objective.

That isn't to say Iguodala wasn't important, that is to say that while the defense he put on LeBron was much needed, the most valuable piece was still Curry. He put up numbers that were subpar by his standard but clearly better than Iggy's even taking into account Iggy's defense.

I say this and I am secretly glad Curry DIDN'T win FMVP... I'll repeat, the hater in me wanted Curry to lose out on FMVP because people were saying how Curry is better than LeBron now. I never thought Curry was better than LeBron and so I was pleasantly happy Curry didn't win out of spite. Nevertheless, putting my objectivity hat on and throwing my hater hat away, Curry should have won no matter how you slice it. I just won't be crying about it.

False but keep trying to play it like you love bron and hate curry... Lebron should have won finals MVP because he was the MVP... Iggy won because he actually had to defend that series instead of just chucking shots like curry.

tredigs
01-04-2019, 11:40 AM
I realize it's a one-game sample size, but I'm feeling pretty damn good about this whole Harden vs. Curry debate right about now.
You shouldn't. He had huge moments that will get all the press of course (deservedly mind you), but it was not some dominant performance by him. The numbers will add up assist+shot wise if you have the ball in your hands on every play, but it did not come without what 39% shooting (granted an efficient 3pt night on the most 3s shot I have ever seen in my life... And that's saying something). But a ton of turnovers, etc. So while it was a very good game with some huge shots, it was FAR from dominant. The dude has the ball in his hands more than any player i have ever seen (the counting stats WILL come for all great players with absurd usage %'s), and he is handling the load admirably, that is the takeaway of his season for me. But don't be silly, we saw absolutely nothing last night that should shift any opinion of them as players (a crazy notion if you give it a minute of thought honestly).

tredigs
01-04-2019, 11:47 AM
False but keep trying to play it like you love bron and hate curry... Lebron should have won finals MVP because he was the MVP... Iggy won because he actually had to defend that series instead of just chucking shots like curry.

You mean instead of run their offense and take on all the defensive attention lime Curry. If you think the defensive attention Harden receives on a night like last (where he was in ISO literally all game so it's particularly hilarious how wrong you are on that take), God help ya. I'm personally glad Iggy won that award because it brought the Warriors tighter than ever, but LOL at him being the actual most valuable player. Bron winning FMVP shooting 39% in a 6 game losing effort would have been equally stupid given the nature of the award, but yes he was the best overall player in it.

ewing
01-04-2019, 11:56 AM
You mean instead of run their offense and take on all the defensive attention lime Curry. If you think the defensive attention Harden receives on a night like last (where he was in ISO literally all game so it's particularly hilarious how wrong you are on that take), God help ya. I'm personally glad Iggy won that award because it brought the Warriors tighter than ever, but LOL at him being the actual most valuable player. Bron winning FMVP shooting 39% in a 6 game losing effort would have been equally stupid given the nature of the award, but yes he was the best overall player in it.

When Curry takes a game off on a like a B2B or something, does he still get ALL defensive attention? Just curious

mightybosstone
01-04-2019, 11:59 AM
You shouldn't. He had huge moments that will get all the press of course (deservedly mind you), but it was not some dominant performance by him. The numbers will add up assist+shot wise if you have the ball in your hands on every play, but it did not come without what 39% shooting (granted an efficient 3pt night on the most 3s shot I have ever seen in my life... And that's saying something). But a ton of turnovers, etc. So while it was a very good game with some huge shots, it was FAR from dominant. The dude has the ball in his hands more than any player i have ever seen (the counting stats WILL come for all great players with absurd usage %'s), and he is handling the load admirably, that is the takeaway of his season for me. But don't be silly, we saw absolutely nothing last night that should shift any opinion of them as players (a crazy notion if you give it a minute of thought honestly).

Dude shot 10-23 from the 3-pointers and scored 44 points on 32 shots. Not insanely efficient, but also not the wildly inefficient performance you're making it out to be. He scored almost 1.4 points per FGA. That's better than some top scorers in the league average on any given night. Also, I'll take 7 turnovers if you have 15 freaking assists. You'll pretty much always take a 2:1 AST:TO ratio from your playmaker. So you can try to nitpick all you want, but it was a dominant performance.

As far as a one-game sample size, I'm not saying it shifts my opinion either way. I still think Harden is currently the better NBA basketball player and is far more important to his team right now than Curry is to the Warriors. I'm saying that last night's game made me feel pretty good about having made that statement earlier in the week.

valade16
01-04-2019, 12:54 PM
False but keep trying to play it like you love bron and hate curry... Lebron should have won finals MVP because he was the MVP... Iggy won because he actually had to defend that series instead of just chucking shots like curry.

What is false? That Redrum is a Curry hater or that the Warriors would have won the series had Curry not played?

valade16
01-04-2019, 12:55 PM
is luka a top 5 player? A dude you speak of not wanting to be the alpha did everything while winning back to back finals MVP and never lost an MVP to iggy might I add.


Dude shot 10-23 from the 3-pointers and scored 44 points on 32 shots. Not insanely efficient, but also not the wildly inefficient performance you're making it out to be. He scored almost 1.4 points per FGA. That's better than some top scorers in the league average on any given night. Also, I'll take 7 turnovers if you have 15 freaking assists. You'll pretty much always take a 2:1 AST:TO ratio from your playmaker. So you can try to nitpick all you want, but it was a dominant performance.

As far as a one-game sample size, I'm not saying it shifts my opinion either way. I still think Harden is currently the better NBA basketball player and is far more important to his team right now than Curry is to the Warriors. I'm saying that last night's game made me feel pretty good about having made that statement earlier in the week.

Isn't this what he does though? Plays huge and puts up monster numbers in the regular season?

Saying that a random regular season game made you happy about your take when the biggest criticism of Harden has been his ability to do this in the playoffs seems like playing right into the narrative. We all know he can do this now, the question is can he do this when it actually matters (and no, a random game in January does not nor will it ever matter like a playoff game).

mightybosstone
01-04-2019, 02:30 PM
Isn't this what he does though? Plays huge and puts up monster numbers in the regular season?

Saying that a random regular season game made you happy about your take when the biggest criticism of Harden has been his ability to do this in the playoffs seems like playing right into the narrative. We all know he can do this now, the question is can he do this when it actually matters (and no, a random game in January does not nor will it ever matter like a playoff game).

OK, but the playoffs are months away, so it's not like we have an example right now we can point to to help make our case either way. This was a huge game on a national stage on the road against the best team in the league. This was as close to a playoff game as you can get in January. Also, it's a one game sample size. As I've said before in both of these threads, Harden has had great individual performances in the playoffs before. I could point to easily half a dozen stellar playoff performances in his career. So isn't whether this game was in the playoffs or the regular season kind of a moot point?

valade16
01-04-2019, 02:37 PM
OK, but the playoffs are months away, so it's not like we have an example right now we can point to to help make our case either way. This was a huge game on a national stage on the road against the best team in the league. This was as close to a playoff game as you can get in January. Also, it's a one game sample size. As I've said before in both of these threads, Harden has had great individual performances in the playoffs before. I could point to easily half a dozen stellar playoff performances in his career. So isn't whether this game was in the playoffs or the regular season kind of a moot point?

Not really no. Until he does this in the playoffs (or heck, when it matters in the playoffs) it's the same thing. My point was using the regular season to reinforce the belief that he's surpassed Curry when the biggest reason most have for why he hasn't surpassed Curry is the playoffs is a moot point.

mightybosstone
01-04-2019, 03:04 PM
Not really no. Until he does this in the playoffs (or heck, when it matters in the playoffs) it's the same thing. My point was using the regular season to reinforce the belief that he's surpassed Curry when the biggest reason most have for why he hasn't surpassed Curry is the playoffs is a moot point.

But what has Curry done in the playoffs lately that is so awe-inspiring? Look at their numbers in the postseason last year. Harden's were arguably better. But Paul went down, and unlike Curry, he didn't have Durant to bail him out.

I've said it before, but I'll say it one more time: historic debate vs. "the who's better today?" debate are two completely different discussions. Curry unquestionably has the edge in a historic argument, but if the question is who the better NBA player is right now, I think it's Harden based on his performance the last year and a half. You may be putting more stock into who Curry was in 2015-16, and that's fine. I don't. I think you have to consistently be excellent to prove that excellence, and if we're talking about the here and now, I'm unimpressed with the things you accomplished three years ago.

valade16
01-04-2019, 03:23 PM
But what has Curry done in the playoffs lately that is so awe-inspiring? Look at their numbers in the postseason last year. Harden's were arguably better. But Paul went down, and unlike Curry, he didn't have Durant to bail him out.

I've said it before, but I'll say it one more time: historic debate vs. "the who's better today?" debate are two completely different discussions. Curry unquestionably has the edge in a historic argument, but if the question is who the better NBA player is right now, I think it's Harden based on his performance the last year and a half. You may be putting more stock into who Curry was in 2015-16, and that's fine. I don't. I think you have to consistently be excellent to prove that excellence, and if we're talking about the here and now, I'm unimpressed with the things you accomplished three years ago.

There's this weird insidious idea people are trying to peddle that Curry and the Warriors somehow needed KD. It's not like the Rockets with a hurt CP3 were a lock to beat the Warriors without KD, the Warriors beat the Rockets twice in the playoffs, with Curry outplayed Harden in the WCF series.

And what has Curry done lately in the playoffs? Well he outplayed Harden in games 5, 6, and 7 of their series. But I do agree that right now Harden is more valuable to the Rockets than Curry because of KD. KD makes everyone's value on the team go down (though Curry is still most valuable on that team, it's not nearly to the degree it was before KD).

I just disagree that Curry has somehow gotten worse.

mightybosstone
01-04-2019, 03:43 PM
There's this weird insidious idea people are trying to peddle that Curry and the Warriors somehow needed KD. It's not like the Rockets with a hurt CP3 were a lock to beat the Warriors without KD, the Warriors beat the Rockets twice in the playoffs, with Curry outplayed Harden in the WCF series.
That previous WCF series was four years ago. Different coach, different offensive system, completely different supporting cast. Also, I'm not one who buys the argument of "Golden State needed Durant to keep winning titles." I think there's a case to be made that Durant doesn't completely fit the system, and there are times where they play better without him.

HOWEVER, I do believe that Warriors team in the playoffs last year needed Durant to perform at an insane level to beat Houston with even Paul being only healthy for five of seven games. You take Durant out of that series, and I don't think the Warriors were the better team. Durant was clearly Golden State's best player and easiest source of offense in that series.


And what has Curry done lately in the playoffs? Well he outplayed Harden in games 5, 6, and 7 of their series.
I'd say they were about even in that series, honestly. Harden put up 29/6/6/2 and Curry put up 25/6/6/2 with better efficiency. Harden had the edge in a few games, and Curry had the edge in a few games. But it was Durant who outplayed everyone, especially in Games 1 and 7, the two Golden State won in Houston. But I don't think you can argue Curry was substantially better than Harden in the playoffs last year.


But I do agree that right now Harden is more valuable to the Rockets than Curry because of KD. KD makes everyone's value on the team go down (though Curry is still most valuable on that team, it's not nearly to the degree it was before KD).

I just disagree that Curry has somehow gotten worse.
I think there's enough reason to be skeptical that Curry is not exactly the same player he was in 2015-16. His assists numbers are down, his DBPM is WAY down and his efficiency is down. And his production is down overall despite taking only 0.4 fewer FGA this year and boasting only a slightly lower USG% in the most minutes he's played per game since 2014.

ewing
01-04-2019, 03:56 PM
i'll take Curry in this one but I can definitely see both sides.

tredigs
01-04-2019, 04:05 PM
"Currys efficiency is down" MTM? :laugh: He is THE most efficient high volume scorer in the NBA (ditto last season where he broke scoring efficiency records) and is averaging 29/5/5 on a 66% TS and until like 2 weeks ago was on a 50/50/90 pace (still attainable), with nobody having a doubt that he was playing the best ball in the NBA in the early going before going down.

You're confused. And no, none of this matters until Harden has even a single dominant playoff run.

mightybosstone
01-04-2019, 04:18 PM
"Currys efficiency is down" MTM? :laugh: He is THE most efficient high volume scorer in the NBA (ditto last season where he broke scoring efficiency records) and is averaging 29/5/5 on a 66% TS and until like 2 weeks ago was on a 50/50/90 pace (still attainable), with nobody having a doubt that he was playing the best ball in the NBA in the early going before going down.

You're confused. And no, none of this matters until Harden has even a single dominant playoff run.

Form 2015-16? No. I'm not confused. His TS% is 1.2 percent lower this season than in 2015-16. Statistically pretty much everything across the board is lower for Curry from that 2015-16 year. His scoring numbers are actually the second highest of his career, but with this assist numbers the lowest they've been since 2012 and poorer defensive numbers across the board, his advanced stats have really suffered this season. His WS/48 and BPM are the lowest they've been since 2013.

Edit: Also, my abbreviated screen name is MBT, not MTM. You know better that that. Don't make me start calling you lolplease...

Redrum187
01-04-2019, 04:22 PM
False but keep trying to play it like you love bron and hate curry... Lebron should have won finals MVP because he was the MVP... Iggy won because he actually had to defend that series instead of just chucking shots like curry.

You don't even know what you're talking about. lol

I wanted LeBron to win FMVP! He was a one-man team. My animosity towards LeBron died when Dirk slayed the three-headed beast in Miami back in 2011. I'm not a LeBron ****boy, but I like him more than I like Curry. LeBron is the best player in the game and has been for quite some time.

There is a precedent that a person on the losing team could still be FMVP. I would have voted for the loser, LeBron James, winning FMVP over Curry or Iguodala. However, Iguodala winning it over Curry is absurd. Rather than state your opinion of what I think, why not objectively answer the questions in bold/red?

By the way, in the other thread you kept saying how all the defensive metrics point to Luka show he is one of the worst defenders in the game and I asked you to show me them... Why do you only pick and choose what you want to respond to? I suppose it's your right... but let's actually have fruitful discussion centered on facts.

Facts don't care about your feelings.

Redrum187
01-04-2019, 04:28 PM
What is false? That Redrum is a Curry hater or that the Warriors would have won the series had Curry not played?

:laugh:

I remember we were doing a redraft during the Finals and KnicksorBust (who I love by the way) was saying that Curry is better than LeBron in the chatzy. I would say KoB was the reason I really started disliking Curry and was happy he didn't win FMVP. I just admit when I'm being a hater though and without question feel he was more deserving than Iguodala. It should have been LeBron or Curry.

Redrum187
01-04-2019, 04:32 PM
There's this weird insidious idea people are trying to peddle that Curry and the Warriors somehow needed KD. It's not like the Rockets with a hurt CP3 were a lock to beat the Warriors without KD, the Warriors beat the Rockets twice in the playoffs, with Curry outplayed Harden in the WCF series.

And what has Curry done lately in the playoffs? Well he outplayed Harden in games 5, 6, and 7 of their series. But I do agree that right now Harden is more valuable to the Rockets than Curry because of KD. KD makes everyone's value on the team go down (though Curry is still most valuable on that team, it's not nearly to the degree it was before KD).

I just disagree that Curry has somehow gotten worse.

That's exactly what I mean. We have to look at context and variables for why a player's production is not as high as his previous years when we compare him to another player on another team.

Objective + not lazy = :)

tredigs
01-04-2019, 06:07 PM
Form 2015-16? No. I'm not confused. His TS% is 1.2 percent lower this season than in 2015-16. Statistically pretty much everything across the board is lower for Curry from that 2015-16 year. His scoring numbers are actually the second highest of his career, but with this assist numbers the lowest they've been since 2012 and poorer defensive numbers across the board, his advanced stats have really suffered this season. His WS/48 and BPM are the lowest they've been since 2013.

Edit: Also, my abbreviated screen name is MBT, not MTM. You know better that that. Don't make me start calling you lolplease...

It's a very small sample and highly negligible, but obviously his volume is lower as his usage is lower. You seem to have trouble grasping how much role/usage have to do with the numbers a player is able to put up. As a talent he is every bit as good as ever.

mightybosstone
01-04-2019, 07:05 PM
It's a very small sample and highly negligible, but obviously his volume is lower as his usage is lower. You seem to have trouble grasping how much role/usage have to do with the numbers a player is able to put up. As a talent he is every bit as good as ever.

No, I understand how it works, chief. And I don't appreciate being talked down to.

Statistically, Curry is not the player he was in 2015-16, period. Hell, he's not even the player he was in 2014-15. You can talk up his lower USG% all you want to, but his USG% was lower in 2014-15 without Durant's presence and his advanced metrics were pretty much superior across the board that season compared to his last two and a half seasons.

A higher USG% does not necessarily equate to superior advanced numbers. In fact, contrarily, a player with a higher usage typically boasts lower efficiency, turns the ball over more, etc. In Curry's case, he's boasting a lower USG% this season primarily because of lower assist numbersóhis AST% is the lowest since his rookie season. And despite that lower USG%, his efficiency hasn't been any higher than in 2015-16, when it peaked at 32.6 percent.

So, yeah, feel free to blame Durant for Curry's dropoff in play the last two and a half years. But the numbers are what they are. Maybe if Durant leaves, Curry returns to his 2015-16 self. But he's not that same guy right now.

valade16
01-04-2019, 07:13 PM
No, I understand how it works, chief. And I don't appreciate being talked down to.

Statistically, Curry is not the player he was in 2015-16, period. Hell, he's not even the player he was in 2014-15. You can talk up his lower USG% all you want to, but his USG% was lower in 2014-15 without Durant's presence and his advanced metrics were pretty much superior across the board that season compared to his last two and a half seasons.

A higher USG% does not necessarily equate to superior advanced numbers. In fact, contrarily, a player with a higher usage typically boasts lower efficiency, turns the ball over more, etc. In Curry's case, he's boasting a lower USG% this season primarily because of lower assist numbersóhis AST% is the lowest since his rookie season. And despite that lower USG%, his efficiency hasn't been any higher than in 2015-16, when it peaked at 32.6 percent.

So, yeah, feel free to blame Durant for Curry's dropoff in play the last two and a half years. But the numbers are what they are. Maybe if Durant leaves, Curry returns to his 2015-16 self. But he's not that same guy right now.

Do you think there's any correlation between Curry's lower Assist numbers and KD's tendency to run ISO plays?

mightybosstone
01-04-2019, 08:15 PM
Do you think there's any correlation between Curry's lower Assist numbers and KD's tendency to run ISO plays?

Could there be? Absolutely. I don't watch the Warriors enough to say definitively one way or the other, but I've got to think their assist numbers as a team dipped a bit when Durant came on board solely because they incorporated more of his isolation plays into an offense that's so predicated on ball movement.

That being said, it's odd how much Curry's assist numbers have dipped this season. If you look from his 2015-16 season and compare those numbers to the last two years, Durant's arrival didn't hurt Curry's assist numbers that much. His AST% dropped from 33.7% to 31.2% and 30.3% the last two years. And his assists per 100 possessions remained pretty much the same from 9.4 in 2015-16 to 9.6 and 9.2 the next two years.

But this season, his AST% dropped all the way to 25.2% and his assists per 100 possessions dropped to 7.3, the lowest of his career. The weird thing is that his USG% this season is identical to last year. So he's using the same amount of possessions, but he's looking to pass a hell of a lot less and score a hell of a lot more. Could this have to do with the guys around him? Or maybe he's just trying to be more aggressive offensively for some reason? I'm not sure.

tredigs
01-04-2019, 08:35 PM
If you're looking at assists as a means to an end for playmaking/passing ability and not even getting to the surface level stats analysis of secondary assists (which don't include the double passes to a corner three that are the staple of him being overloaded on), then you're just being a lazy box-score watcher. His skill/athleticism level is absolutely as great as ever. He plays to what is given and look no further than Klay and Draymond's putrid shooting numbers to begin to understand why assists are down.

So no, you don't grasp role/context or simply don't watch enough of the team to make an intelligent comment on his play. That's not me talking down to you mbt, it's just more apparent by the post (in fact I think you said as much a few posts back, so I'm not sure what we are discussing here).

valade16
01-04-2019, 08:44 PM
Could there be? Absolutely. I don't watch the Warriors enough to say definitively one way or the other, but I've got to think their assist numbers as a team dipped a bit when Durant came on board solely because they incorporated more of his isolation plays into an offense that's so predicated on ball movement.

That being said, it's odd how much Curry's assist numbers have dipped this season. If you look from his 2015-16 season and compare those numbers to the last two years, Durant's arrival didn't hurt Curry's assist numbers that much. His AST% dropped from 33.7% to 31.2% and 30.3% the last two years. And his assists per 100 possessions remained pretty much the same from 9.4 in 2015-16 to 9.6 and 9.2 the next two years.

But this season, his AST% dropped all the way to 25.2% and his assists per 100 possessions dropped to 7.3, the lowest of his career. The weird thing is that his USG% this season is identical to last year. So he's using the same amount of possessions, but he's looking to pass a hell of a lot less and score a hell of a lot more. Could this have to do with the guys around him? Or maybe he's just trying to be more aggressive offensively for some reason? I'm not sure.

Well KD did complain about how often GS passes and the article I read noted that GS's average passes per game was down this year (though that article is now over a month old). I think over time KD has begun exerting more control over the offense and making it more ISO heavy. I also think that we need to look at Curry's "hockey" assist numbers to see if he's really not passing as much because he was always great at passing to the guy who defenses rotated to so they could pass to the open man.

It could also be that Curry is making the exact same passes as before but instead of passing to 43% 3PT shooting Klay Thompson or a 31% 3PT shooting Draymond Green he's now passing to a 35% 3PT shooting Klay Thompson and a 23% 3PT Shooting Draymond Green.


But I think he also could be looking to score more since his FGA per 100 possessions are higher than they've ever been with KD on the team.

More-Than-Most
01-04-2019, 09:52 PM
Isn't this what he does though? Plays huge and puts up monster numbers in the regular season?

Saying that a random regular season game made you happy about your take when the biggest criticism of Harden has been his ability to do this in the playoffs seems like playing right into the narrative. We all know he can do this now, the question is can he do this when it actually matters (and no, a random game in January does not nor will it ever matter like a playoff game).

Well again its who we are comparing him against... Harden has always been the best player on his team in the playoffs even when he basically chokes... Do you honestly think he would choke if he had 2 players as good as dray/klay were on top of iggy and that bench even before durant got there? You basically had all defensive players as your 6th man yearly who would be a starter on every team and then they added durant. There is no greater choke then what curry did up 3-1 which made them run out and get Durant... Dray gets suspended and the cavs start attacking and forcing curry to actually defend which killed his shooting being forced to 2 way play... As bad as harden is on defense he is never forced to sit on the worst starter on the other team like curry can because of the fact he had 3 all world defenders in dray/iggy/klay and then got a 4th with durant.


This is a discussion about who the better player is correct???? Do you honestly think curry would do more on the worst team in basketball over harden? Harden a dude whom i hate but destroys teams when they double and triple team him something curry has never actually been faced with. Curry can shoot but if both guys had to carry teams that lacked talent the easiest choice in the world is harden.

Jamiecballer
01-04-2019, 10:24 PM
its close but currently its harden... Sorry Harden at least tries to be an alpha... Harden has never been the 2nd best player on his team on the rockets.. Curry isnt even the best player on his team.This is my honest take as well. With most superstars you can compare numbers and the tie breaker is often how good their teams were when they didnt have much to work with. And vice versa. But Golden State was hot garbage for the first handful of seasons of his career. Steph Curry's Warriors never even finished a season at .500 until he had both Green and Thompson. So the tie-breaker for me since they both are below average on one end is simply that I've seen Harden get excellent results both with and without help.

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tredigs
01-04-2019, 10:55 PM
This is my honest take as well. With most superstars you can compare numbers and the tie breaker is often how good their teams were when they didnt have much to work with. And vice versa. But Golden State was hot garbage for the first handful of seasons of his career. Steph Curry's Warriors never even finished a season at .500 until he had both Green and Thompson. So the tie-breaker for me since they both are below average on one end is simply that I've seen Harden get excellent results both with and without help.

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You are strong, simple men. Don't let anybody tell you otherwise.

IKnowHoops
01-04-2019, 11:18 PM
You mean instead of run their offense and take on all the defensive attention lime Curry. If you think the defensive attention Harden receives on a night like last (where he was in ISO literally all game so it's particularly hilarious how wrong you are on that take), God help ya. I'm personally glad Iggy won that award because it brought the Warriors tighter than ever, but LOL at him being the actual most valuable player. Bron winning FMVP shooting 39% in a 6 game losing effort would have been equally stupid given the nature of the award, but yes he was the best overall player in it.

You forgot while basically averaging a triple double and leading his team in pts/reb/asst/stls/blks and outplaying Curry in every phase of the game. I love ya Tre, but especially love how you isolate the bad stats and ignore the amazing ones all while homering harder than than any ever.

IKnowHoops
01-04-2019, 11:27 PM
If you're looking at assists as a means to an end for playmaking/passing ability and not even getting to the surface level stats analysis of secondary assists (which don't include the double passes to a corner three that are the staple of him being overloaded on), then you're just being a lazy box-score watcher. His skill/athleticism level is absolutely as great as ever. He plays to what is given and look no further than Klay and Draymond's putrid shooting numbers to begin to understand why assists are down.

So no, you don't grasp role/context or simply don't watch enough of the team to make an intelligent comment on his play. That's not me talking down to you mbt, it's just more apparent by the post (in fact I think you said as much a few posts back, so I'm not sure what we are discussing here).

Do we take in hockey assists for any player other than Curry... for fóó- sakes😭

tredigs
01-04-2019, 11:27 PM
You forgot while basically averaging a triple double and leading his team in pts/reb/asst/stls/blks and outplaying Curry in every phase of the game. I love ya Tre, but especially love how you isolate the bad stats and ignore the amazing ones all while homering harder than than any ever.

I could care less if you think Bron was better in that series. I agree he was and said so. You would also be a fool to think he did not play exactly into what the Warriors wanted him to do and got beat down while shooting like a clown all series. The FMVP is a running joke, especially in series where the Finals is a joke (hint: most of the Warriors Finals against Bron).

tredigs
01-04-2019, 11:29 PM
Do we take in hockey assists for any player other than Curry... for fóó- sakes😭

We do. They don't compare. He leads the league every season. If you need the numbers just ask. Next question?

IKnowHoops
01-04-2019, 11:29 PM
Well KD did complain about how often GS passes and the article I read noted that GS's average passes per game was down this year (though that article is now over a month old). I think over time KD has begun exerting more control over the offense and making it more ISO heavy. I also think that we need to look at Curry's "hockey" assist numbers to see if he's really not passing as much because he was always great at passing to the guy who defenses rotated to so they could pass to the open man.

It could also be that Curry is making the exact same passes as before but instead of passing to 43% 3PT shooting Klay Thompson or a 31% 3PT shooting Draymond Green he's now passing to a 35% 3PT shooting Klay Thompson and a 23% 3PT Shooting Draymond Green.


But I think he also could be looking to score more since his FGA per 100 possessions are higher than they've ever been with KD on the team.

So heís no longer passing to a steroidal 3 pt shooting team and has to deal with what the rest of the league has to deal with and were making excuses for him. Sóó!

IKnowHoops
01-04-2019, 11:31 PM
We do. They don't compare. He leads the league every season. If you need the numbers just ask. Next question?

Why doesnít he come close to leading in regular assists?

tredigs
01-04-2019, 11:49 PM
Why doesnít he come close to leading in regular assists?

Why do you understand so little about how the Warriors dominate? Figure it out. I'm not here to be your NBA wiki.

Jamiecballer
01-04-2019, 11:50 PM
You are strong, simple men. Don't let anybody tell you otherwise.Its absolutely true which explains why your normally long winded response is short and contains no actual response. Because everyone knows you have to say something even if it's nothing.

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Jamiecballer
01-05-2019, 12:01 AM
You can spit out all the eye test and theoretical stuff you want about how he impacts the game Tre but you cant make something true that factually is not. It's not entirely his fault of course, but Curry hasnt accomplished anything yet in his NBA career that was not accomplished beside superb teammates. It is what it is.

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tredigs
01-05-2019, 12:04 AM
Its absolutely true which explains why your normally long winded response is short and contains no actual response. Because everyone knows you have to say something even if it's nothing.

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No, it just means I don't respect you or your half baked takes. This is a common theme the past year+ for me here if you have not noticed. MBM is over here arguing his heart out against Curry while simultaneously mentioning he does not watch him play. Forgive me if I give a **** about the opinions of those here currently.

tredigs
01-05-2019, 12:06 AM
You can spit out all the eye test and theoretical stuff you want about how he impacts the game Tre but you cant make something true that factually is not. It's not entirely his fault of course, but Curry hasnt accomplished anything yet in his NBA career that was not accomplished beside superb teammates. It is what it is.

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:laugh: Brother takes this stupid are Why I am as dismissive as I am.

IKnowHoops
01-05-2019, 01:47 AM
Why do you understand so little about how the Warriors dominate? Figure it out. I'm not here to be your NBA wiki.

You said next question though. Why did Hardens inefficient night just beat your dominant team? Something isnít adding up Tre. Your double talk is catching up to you my friend

mightybosstone
01-05-2019, 09:59 AM
Well KD did complain about how often GS passes and the article I read noted that GS's average passes per game was down this year (though that article is now over a month old). I think over time KD has begun exerting more control over the offense and making it more ISO heavy. I also think that we need to look at Curry's "hockey" assist numbers to see if he's really not passing as much because he was always great at passing to the guy who defenses rotated to so they could pass to the open man.

It could also be that Curry is making the exact same passes as before but instead of passing to 43% 3PT shooting Klay Thompson or a 31% 3PT shooting Draymond Green he's now passing to a 35% 3PT shooting Klay Thompson and a 23% 3PT Shooting Draymond Green.


But I think he also could be looking to score more since his FGA per 100 possessions are higher than they've ever been with KD on the team.

If you have a way to track those hockey assists and can present those numbers, I'd love to see the data. I'm always open to considering different kinds of data. But you'd probably want to pull up Harden's while you're at it. His penetration leads to so many open looks on the second or third pass, I'm willing to bet those plays are responsible for at least another 6-8 baskets a game.

But overall, I don't think the hockey assist thing is all that relevant when comparing year to year. If an extra pass gets made a few extra times in one game, OK. But those assist numbers would even out over a large enough sample size.

Your points about shooters around him struggling and him looking to score more seem more likely to be the cause of the dropoff in assists.

Chronz
01-05-2019, 02:09 PM
Iíve been ignoring this thread but I canít no more.

If you switch Harden to the Warriors and switch Curry to the Rockets then what will be your result?

Curry is a great player and the best shooter EVER at the PG position.

The system they play in and the supporting cast around them plays a big part in their team success (for the ring talk folks).

While not trying to be a homer, I choose Harden.

Yes, curry would destroy the league analytically in the dantoni system. Its the main reason I hated kd for suppressing him. Curry is a great player? Are you ******** me , that's what passes for analysis OR is that suppose to give you carte blanche on riding your hollow hero.

(The ring talk folks bring up the superior production whilst winning rings, it's as if you've forgotten who actually shrivels) harden had the easiest of roles for a star and he still choked, heres hoping he FINALLY lives up to his billing. I mean, is it crazy to actually attend playoff games? When the loffs come do harden fans just watch tapes from 94?

Chronz
01-05-2019, 02:14 PM
We do. They don't compare. He leads the league every season. If you need the numbers just ask. Next question?
Starting to see trends with these newfangled stats, i'm glad they highlight what we knew all along. **** kd for making the laymen feel hes suddenly declined

Chronz
01-05-2019, 02:17 PM
I would think the Finals where Iggy won MVP right?

So a series when he was an arguable MVP is his worst?

Chronz
01-05-2019, 02:18 PM
Easily the 2016 NBA Finals. You could make a case he was the fourth best player in that series at a time where he was getting recognition as the best player in the MVP and just won unanimous MVP.

Easily? Pray tell

ewing
01-05-2019, 02:27 PM
Yes, curry would destroy the league analytically in the dantoni system. Its the main reason I hated kd for suppressing him. Curry is a great player? Are you ******** me , that's what passes for analysis OR is that suppose to give you carte blanche on riding your hollow hero.

(The ring talk folks bring up the superior production whilst winning rings, it's as if you've forgotten who actually shrivels) harden had the easiest of roles for a star and he still choked, heres hoping he FINALLY lives up to his billing. I mean, is it crazy to actually attend playoff games? When the loffs come do harden fans just watch tapes from 94?

What do you mean by destroy the league analytically? Would he act like he is smarter then the league bc he listen to a Zach Lowe prodcast?


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Saddletramp
01-05-2019, 06:15 PM
Yes, curry would destroy the league analytically in the dantoni system. Its the main reason I hated kd for suppressing him. Curry is a great player? Are you ******** me , that's what passes for analysis OR is that suppose to give you carte blanche on riding your hollow hero.

(The ring talk folks bring up the superior production whilst winning rings, it's as if you've forgotten who actually shrivels) harden had the easiest of roles for a star and he still choked, heres hoping he FINALLY lives up to his billing. I mean, is it crazy to actually attend playoff games? When the loffs come do harden fans just watch tapes from 94?


Easiest of roles? Harden had a perennial DPOY, second best shooter of all time and was then gifted a MVP in his prime? Your non basketball delirium is now sleeping into your basketball takes, rendering you useless to converse with.

Jamiecballer
01-05-2019, 10:46 PM
No, it just means I don't respect you or your half baked takes. This is a common theme the past year+ for me here if you have not noticed. MBM is over here arguing his heart out against Curry while simultaneously mentioning he does not watch him play. Forgive me if I give a **** about the opinions of those here currently.Sure, fella. Damn those factual takes.

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Jamiecballer
01-05-2019, 10:53 PM
[emoji23] Brother takes this stupid are Why I am as dismissive as I am.There is absolutely nothing debatable about what I said. You can verify in 2 mins on basketball reference if you need a refresher on the timeline of your supposedly favorite team. They sucked bad when he had little help. Then he was blessed with 2 outstanding players in back to back drafts and then they became really good.

Therefore, as I said previously, we have not seen Curry in a scenario similar to Hardens to see him carry anything. Only a ****ing homer would deny that.

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tredigs
01-05-2019, 11:47 PM
There is absolutely nothing debatable about what I said. You can verify in 2 mins on basketball reference if you need a refresher on the timeline of your supposedly favorite team. They sucked bad when he had little help. Then he was blessed with 2 outstanding players in back to back drafts and then they became really good.

Therefore, as I said previously, we have not seen Curry in a scenario similar to Hardens to see him carry anything. Only a ****ing homer would deny that.

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He took a 7+2nd round pick to b2b 70 win average win seasons and a title bro :laugh:

You don't understand analysis so I won't bother, but rest assure, you are an idiot as it pertains to the NBA.

Saddletramp
01-06-2019, 04:51 AM
There is absolutely nothing debatable about what I said. You can verify in 2 mins on basketball reference if you need a refresher on the timeline of your supposedly favorite team. They sucked bad when he had little help. Then he was blessed with 2 outstanding players in back to back drafts and then they became really good.

Therefore, as I said previously, we have not seen Curry in a scenario similar to Hardens to see him carry anything. Only a ****ing homer would deny that.

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Not to mention, he was good/great with Mark Jackson.....heís elite with Kerr.


He took a 7+2nd round pick to b2b 70 win average win seasons and a title bro :laugh:

You don't understand analysis so I won't bother, but rest assure, you are an idiot as it pertains to the NBA.

Sometimes second round picks turn into studs. And that 7th pick turned into the second greatest shooter of all time. And you forgot Iguadala and Kerrís system and how that first title was with Delladova being the second best player on the Cavs. Would the Warriors win with a healthy Irving and Love? Maybe.......but they didnít just one year later. 😜

ewing
01-06-2019, 11:06 AM
Not to mention, he was good/great with Mark Jackson.....heís elite with Kerr.



Sometimes second round picks turn into studs. And that 7th pick turned into the second greatest shooter of all time. And you forgot Iguadala and Kerrís system and how that first title was with Delladova being the second best player on the Cavs. Would the Warriors win with a healthy Irving and Love? Maybe.......but they didnít just one year later. [emoji12]

And they had Bogut who was number 1 overall. Why are we not talking about Bogut carrying all these lower picked players?


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Jamiecballer
01-06-2019, 12:09 PM
He took a 7+2nd round pick to b2b 70 win average win seasons and a title bro [emoji23]

You don't understand analysis so I won't bother, but rest assure, you are an idiot as it pertains to the NBA.Stellar logic. Does he get credit for leading them to a record of 85-105 the first 3 years or just (ALL) the credit for what happens after adding 2 top NBA players. It's like you literally can't see the timeline here, whether it's a scotoma or just a bad internet browser is not yet clear.

You cant just pretend like the games that he played before adding 2 elite basketball players don't count nor can you say that just because Steph continued to improve that means the teams results are his results alone. Take off your blinders.

My point is, and continues to be, that we have no period of struggle for Steph where he actually led the Warriors to something good regardless. Part of Lebrons legacy, IMO, is the indisputable fact that even when surrounded by junk in Cleveland for years he elevated them to winners anyways. Harden has demonstrated that to a lesser extent in Houston.

And even though hes an excellent player, we have no proof that Steph could do that because the period of time where he could have established this - he did not.

You may not think it matters - that's your prerogative, but not acknowledging it is an obvious dodge.







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tredigs
01-06-2019, 01:41 PM
Stellar logic. Does he get credit for leading them to a record of 85-105 the first 3 years or just (ALL) the credit for what happens after adding 2 top NBA players. It's like you literally can't see the timeline here, whether it's a scotoma or just a bad internet browser is not yet clear.

You cant just pretend like the games that he played before adding 2 elite basketball players don't count nor can you say that just because Steph continued to improve that means the teams results are his results alone. Take off your blinders.

My point is, and continues to be, that we have no period of struggle for Steph where he actually led the Warriors to something good regardless. Part of Lebrons legacy, IMO, is the indisputable fact that even when surrounded by junk in Cleveland for years he elevated them to winners anyways. Harden has demonstrated that to a lesser extent in Houston.

And even though hes an excellent player, we have no proof that Steph could do that because the period of time where he could have established this - he did not.

You may not think it matters - that's your prerogative, but not acknowledging it is an obvious dodge.







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My favorite part of this post is you including the team record for not only Currys first two years where he was not even the Warriors lead gaurd (Nelly was an idiot and did not realize he was holding a superstar despite his insane record breaking shooting and elite playmaking ability those seasons), but you include their record of the season where he did not even play 3/4ths of the season (I'm very confident you are not aware that he was even injured + benched to tank).

His actual 3rd season (and the first time Curry was featured as a lead guard with Monta now traded) they went from 23 wins to 12 games over .500, upset the 57 win Nuggets in the first round (Curry putting up 24/4/9 on 47/44/100) and pushed the 58 win Spurs to 6 (the team that lost the buzzer beater in G7 to Ray Allen and smashed the Heat the following year). Klay averaged like 15/3/1 on a 50%TS with a 10 PER and Draymond was playing like 10 mpg. You simply don't know what you are talking about, at all. The writing was on the wall that they had a force on their hands. The next year they win 51 with Curry already in borderline MVP form and just drew a **** first round matchup and were undermanned with Bogut going down against the prime 57 win Clippers and lost a tough Game 7 on the road. The next year Curry began to completely explode and led them to the title as the league MVP with the help of the young guns + Iggy. Rest is history, and Currys impact stats (RPM, etc) have shown to be at the top of the game from his 3rd season on.

You do not win titles without help. Jordan and the Bulls did not finish over . 500 or win A playoff series until his 4th season. The title took 7 seasons. Lebron took 9 seasons and joining forces with 2 of the 3 best players in his conference to eventually get one (he would have had one the prior year had he been half as good as Wade in the Finals). Harden? Harden was carried to one Finals in his 3rd year as his teams 3rd or 4th best player and completely turtled (averaging 12/4/3 on 38/31/79). Turtling in big playoff games becoming the prevailing theme of his career to this point.

"Curry did not elevate Golden State to anything" lmfao. It's as dumb a take as I have ever seen on this board.

ewing
01-06-2019, 02:16 PM
My favorite part of this post is you including the team record for not only Currys first two years where he was not even the Warriors lead gaurd (Nelly was an idiot and did not realize he was holding a superstar despite his insane record breaking shooting and elite playmaking ability those seasons), but you include their record of the season where he did not even play 3/4ths of the season (I'm very confident you are not aware that he was even injured + benched to tank).

His actual 3rd season (and the first time Curry was featured as a lead guard with Monta now traded) they went from 23 wins to 12 games over .500, upset the 57 win Nuggets in the first round (Curry putting up 24/4/9 on 47/44/100) and pushed the 58 win Spurs to 6 (the team that lost the buzzer beater in G7 to Ray Allen and smashed the Heat the following year). Klay averaged like 15/3/1 on a 50%TS with a 10 PER and Draymond was playing like 10 mpg. You simply don't know what you are talking about, at all. The writing was on the wall that they had a force on their hands. The next year they win 51 with Curry already in borderline MVP form and just drew a **** first round matchup and were undermanned with Bogut going down against the prime 57 win Clippers and lost a tough Game 7 on the road. The next year Curry began to completely explode and led them to the title as the league MVP with the help of the young guns + Iggy. Rest is history, and Currys impact stats (RPM, etc) have shown to be at the top of the game from his 3rd season on.

You do not win titles without help. Jordan and the Bulls did not finish over . 500 or win A playoff series until his 4th season. The title took 7 seasons. Lebron took 9 seasons and joining forces with 2 of the 3 best players in his conference to eventually get one (he would have had one the prior year had he been half as good as Wade in the Finals). Harden? Harden was carried to one Finals in his 3rd year as his teams 3rd or 4th best player and completely turtled (averaging 12/4/3 on 38/31/79). Turtling in big playoff games becoming the prevailing theme of his career to this point.

"Curry did not elevate Golden State to anything" lmfao. It's as dumb a take as I have ever seen on this board.

So your point is he elevated them to two first round losses? I guess itís an accomplishment

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tredigs
01-06-2019, 02:25 PM
So your point is he elevated them to two first round losses? I guess itís an accomplishment

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? Come again. They BEAT the 57 win Nuggets, lost to the 58 win Spurs/Clippers, then he lead them to a little thing called the title as the league MVP. Went ahead and won that award the next season in unanimous fashion. Is this actually the hill you guys are going to die on? Same take for Jordan as Curry here?

ewing
01-06-2019, 02:28 PM
? Come again. They BEAT the 57 win Nuggets, lost to the 58 win Clippers, then he lead them to a little thing called the title as the league MVP. Went ahead and won that award the next season in unanimous fashion. Is this actually the hill you guys are going to die on?

2nd round you are right


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tredigs
01-06-2019, 02:35 PM
2nd round you are right


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2nd round, yes. As a Knicks fan something you have seen once in the last 20 years. Then the title as the league MVP. Two things you've literally never seen a player on your team or your team accomplish. They played Harden + Dwight and the 56 win Rockets in the WCF that year by the way. Curry eviscerated them in 5 games. Put up 31/5/6 on 52/49/80. Got 17/2/3 on 41/34/83 from Klay as the next best player (hint: they were carried by the MVP). Nice 14/6/5 with 12 turnovers on 2-11 from the field from Harden in the closeout game by the way. I'd say it's notable, but who am I to tell you how to be impressed.

ewing
01-06-2019, 02:50 PM
2nd round, yes. As a Knicks fan something you have seen once in the last 20 years. Then the title as the league MVP. Two things you've literally never seen a player on your team or your team accomplish. I'd say it's noteable, but who am I to tell you how to be impressed.

He didnít carry them to that title. Iggy was the MVP the dumb luck (Irving and Love being hurt) decided the series. Neither guy has been super impressive in the post season


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tredigs
01-06-2019, 03:05 PM
He didnít carry them to that title. Iggy was the MVP the dumb luck (Irving and Love being hurt) decided the series. Neither guy has been super impressive in the post season


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Lmfao. Bro, he carried them all season and through the playoffs (do you need those WCF numbers repeated for you? Or the playoffs as a whole? Fine). 28/5/6.5 on 45/42/84 with Klay as the next best offensive player averaging 18/4/2 on a 55% TS. Iguodala put up 10/5/3 on a 55% TS. It was the Curry show through and through. The Cavs knew this and decided on a game-plan that was predicated on double teaming Curry anywhere within 40 feet, leaving Iguodala as the player to be left wide open. So, Curry passed to him, and he hit. And they won the finals easily. Obviously the injuries mattered, but that's not on Curry or the Warriors. **** happens. The bottom line is that they ran through the league with Curry as BY FAR and CLEARLY the teams driving force. Idiots will die on the hill of Iguodala winning FMVP, anybody who actually watched that season or takes 5 seconds to look at the stats knows why they were catapulted into greatness. Even to this day without Curry, the team is not close to dominant. He's their best player. Has been since his rookie season.

tredigs
01-06-2019, 03:14 PM
Refresher, because apparently a lot of people need it?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fa_lw05TppE

Played/beat every other player on the All NBA 1st Team in each round by the way (AD/Gasol/Harden/Lebron).

LaVar Ball
01-06-2019, 03:18 PM
Curry

LaVar Ball
01-06-2019, 03:19 PM
Lmfao. Bro, he carried them all season and through the playoffs (do you need those WCF numbers repeated for you? Or the playoffs as a whole? Fine). 28/5/6.5 on 45/42/84 with Klay as the next best offensive player averaging 18/4/2 on a 55% TS. Iguodala put up 10/5/3 on a 55% TS. It was the Curry show through and through. The Cavs knew this and decided on a game-plan that was predicated on double teaming Curry anywhere within 40 feet, leaving Iguodala as the player to be left wide open. So, Curry passed to him, and he hit. And they won the finals easily. Obviously the injuries mattered, but that's not on Curry or the Warriors. **** happens. The bottom line is that they ran through the league with Curry as BY FAR and CLEARLY the teams driving force. Idiots will die on the hill of Iguodala winning FMVP, anybody who actually watched that season or takes 5 seconds to look at the stats knows why they were catapulted into greatness. Even to this day without Curry, the team is not close to dominant. He's their best player. Has been since his rookie season.

Accurate 100%

ewing
01-06-2019, 03:22 PM
Refresher, because apparently a lot of people need it?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fa_lw05TppE

Played/beat every other player on the All NBA 1st Team in each round by the way (AD/Gasol/Harden/Lebron).

Everyone and there dog got hurt that year but the Warriors. They beat the Griz without Conley and avoided the second best team in the West b/c Paul got hurt. Then they beat the Cavs without 2 of there 3 best players. They did nothing that they shouldn't of been expected to do. Sorry i don't think it an amazing run or "epic" or anything like that


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tredigs
01-06-2019, 03:32 PM
Everyone and there dog got hurt that year but the Warriors.


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Hahah uh huh. AD or Eric Gordon hurt when they got swept? Nope. Conley missed one game and was trash when he played. Gasol (1st Team All NBA) + Zbo 100%. Harden/Howard/Ariza/Terry/Smith etc all 100%. Got smoked by Curry in 5 even without his teammates showing up that series. 67 win team. They were the best from beginning to end. You can stick with this fantasy all you want that this is not the case, but you have absolutely no case to make. It's why you stick to one sentence rebuttals and keep getting smacked. The moving of the goal posts by you along the way is pretty entertaining though.

ewing
01-06-2019, 03:36 PM
Hahah uh huh. AD or Eric Gordon hurt when they got swept? Nope. Conley missed one game and was trash when he played. Gasol (1st Team All NBA) + Zbo 100%. Harden/Howard/Ariza/Terry/Smith etc all 100%. Got smoked by Curry in 5 even without his teammates showing up that series. 67 win team. They were the best from beginning to end. You can stick with this fantasy all you want that this is not the case, but you have absolutely no case to make. It's why you stick to one sentence rebuttals and keep getting smacked.

should I get emotional and start vomiting at the mouth instead? The GS warriors were very fortunate that year. They might have won it anyway. I am not going to say they wouldn't have but they had a fortunate road. Acting like it took some epic effort from Curry to carry them against the odds is very disingenuous

Btw they were supposed to smack the Pels. Didn't they get in on the last day of the season? They also avoided the Clippers b/c of Paul's injury and played a ridiculously handicapped Cavs (we saw what happened the next year when they were healthy) . Oh and Conley is kind of important. The Warriors were fortunate that year. They mght have won anyway but they got to avoid a fight

tredigs
01-06-2019, 03:47 PM
should I get emotional and start vomiting at the mouth instead? The GS warriors were very fortunate that year. They might have won it anyway. I am not going to say they wouldn't have but they had a fortunate road. Acting like it took some epic effort from Curry to carry them against the odds is very disingenuous

Dude, you are hilarious. Let me put it very plain. Without Curry that team was not ****. They would not have won 50 games or been a contender. With Curry (the league MVP) they won 67 games and a title. Easily. He was their regular season MVP by a country mile. He was their playoff MVP by a country mile and won the title with 1 All Star in Klay (who sucked the vast majority of the playoffs). Draymond's D turned out to be their 2nd best weapon, but it wasn't going to lead them to victory. That was on Curry, and he/they beat every player on the All NBA 1st Team on the way. Exactly none of them were injured. He was incredible all year and earned every bit of it. Jordan's first title he had more help. Lebron's first title he had more help. These are the facts.

ewing
01-06-2019, 03:52 PM
Dude, you are hilarious. Let me put it very plain. Without Curry that team was not ****. They would not have won 50 games or been a contender. With Curry (the league MVP) they won 67 games and a title. Easily. He was their regular season MVP by a country mile. He was their playoff MVP by a country mile and won the title with 1 All Star in Klay (who sucked the vast majority of the playoffs). Draymond's D turned out to be their 2nd best weapon, but it wasn't going to lead them to victory. That was on Curry, and he/they beat every player on the All NBA 1st Team on the way. Exactly none of them were injured. He was incredible all year and earned every bit of it. Jordan's first title he had more help. Lebron's first title he had more help. These are the facts.

They had a little more trouble the next year when they didn't catch as many breaks.

Jamiecballer
01-06-2019, 03:53 PM
My favorite part of this post is you including the team record for not only Currys first two years where he was not even the Warriors lead gaurd (Nelly was an idiot and did not realize he was holding a superstar despite his insane record breaking shooting and elite playmaking ability those seasons), but you include their record of the season where he did not even play 3/4ths of the season (I'm very confident you are not aware that he was even injured + benched to tank).

His actual 3rd season (and the first time Curry was featured as a lead guard with Monta now traded) they went from 23 wins to 12 games over .500, upset the 57 win Nuggets in the first round (Curry putting up 24/4/9 on 47/44/100) and pushed the 58 win Spurs to 6 (the team that lost the buzzer beater in G7 to Ray Allen and smashed the Heat the following year). Klay averaged like 15/3/1 on a 50%TS with a 10 PER and Draymond was playing like 10 mpg. You simply don't know what you are talking about, at all. The writing was on the wall that they had a force on their hands. The next year they win 51 with Curry already in borderline MVP form and just drew a **** first round matchup and were undermanned with Bogut going down against the prime 57 win Clippers and lost a tough Game 7 on the road. The next year Curry began to completely explode and led them to the title as the league MVP with the help of the young guns + Iggy. Rest is history, and Currys impact stats (RPM, etc) have shown to be at the top of the game from his 3rd season on.

You do not win titles without help. Jordan and the Bulls did not finish over . 500 or win A playoff series until his 4th season. The title took 7 seasons. Lebron took 9 seasons and joining forces with 2 of the 3 best players in his conference to eventually get one (he would have had one the prior year had he been half as good as Wade in the Finals). Harden? Harden was carried to one Finals in his 3rd year as his teams 3rd or 4th best player and completely turtled (averaging 12/4/3 on 38/31/79). Turtling in big playoff games becoming the prevailing theme of his career to this point.

"Curry did not elevate Golden State to anything" lmfao. It's as dumb a take as I have ever seen on this board.I love how your "favorite part" was wrong. Math friend. The record reflects 20+ games in season 3.

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tredigs
01-06-2019, 03:55 PM
They had a little more trouble the next year when they didn't catch as many breaks.

Yeah, no ****. Curry got injured mid playoffs, that wasn't a good start. Way to move the goalposts to try to avoid acknowledging facts again btw.

tredigs
01-06-2019, 03:57 PM
I love how your "favorite part" was wrong. Math friend. The record reflects 20+ games in season 3.

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Fair enough, and it's still irrelevant. Their relevance as a team coincided 100% with Curry being healthy in his actual 3rd year and being given the keys to the team with Monta being traded. If you can't grasp that he is the catalyst, I can't help you buddy. I literally spelled out the story for you.

Jamiecballer
01-06-2019, 04:06 PM
My favorite part of this post is you including the team record for not only Currys first two years where he was not even the Warriors lead gaurd (Nelly was an idiot and did not realize he was holding a superstar despite his insane record breaking shooting and elite playmaking ability those seasons), but you include their record of the season where he did not even play 3/4ths of the season (I'm very confident you are not aware that he was even injured + benched to tank).

His actual 3rd season (and the first time Curry was featured as a lead guard with Monta now traded) they went from 23 wins to 12 games over .500, upset the 57 win Nuggets in the first round (Curry putting up 24/4/9 on 47/44/100) and pushed the 58 win Spurs to 6 (the team that lost the buzzer beater in G7 to Ray Allen and smashed the Heat the following year). Klay averaged like 15/3/1 on a 50%TS with a 10 PER and Draymond was playing like 10 mpg. You simply don't know what you are talking about, at all. The writing was on the wall that they had a force on their hands. The next year they win 51 with Curry already in borderline MVP form and just drew a **** first round matchup and were undermanned with Bogut going down against the prime 57 win Clippers and lost a tough Game 7 on the road. The next year Curry began to completely explode and led them to the title as the league MVP with the help of the young guns + Iggy. Rest is history, and Currys impact stats (RPM, etc) have shown to be at the top of the game from his 3rd season on.

You do not win titles without help. Jordan and the Bulls did not finish over . 500 or win A playoff series until his 4th season. The title took 7 seasons. Lebron took 9 seasons and joining forces with 2 of the 3 best players in his conference to eventually get one (he would have had one the prior year had he been half as good as Wade in the Finals). Harden? Harden was carried to one Finals in his 3rd year as his teams 3rd or 4th best player and completely turtled (averaging 12/4/3 on 38/31/79). Turtling in big playoff games becoming the prevailing theme of his career to this point.

"Curry did not elevate Golden State to anything" lmfao. It's as dumb a take as I have ever seen on this board.

For anyone keeping track, we are now -

1. completely disregarding Stephs 3rd season;

2. the fact that Stephs 4th season has 2nd year Klay Thompson and rookie Drayymond Green - whereas the last time we are allowed to count Steph (year 2) he had NEITHER.

3. Supposed to be swayed by a whopping 47 wins.

I appreciate your commitment to the guy but you are completely delusional, who do you think you are fooling. Even in your last statement of the previous post you take one final shot at misleading - I didn't say "steph has never elevated golden state to anything", I assume most people caught that as well.

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ewing
01-06-2019, 04:12 PM
Yeah, no ****. Curry got injured mid playoffs, that wasn't a good start. Way to move the goalposts to try to avoid acknowledging facts again btw.

they avoided the biggest potential challenge in there conference (a healthy Clippers team) and played two teams that had major injuries


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tredigs
01-06-2019, 04:17 PM
For anyone keeping track, we are now -

1. completely disregarding Stephs 3rd season;

2. the fact that Stephs 4th season has 2nd year Klay Thompson and rookie Drayymond Green - whereas the last time we are allowed to count Steph (year 2) he had NEITHER.

3. Supposed to be swayed by a whopping 47 wins.

I appreciate your commitment to the guy but you are completely delusional, who do you think you are fooling. Even in your last statement of the previous post you take one final shot at misleading - I didn't say "steph has never elevated golden state to anything", I assume most people caught that as well.

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:laugh: Bud you are the guys here trying to underplay the importance of a b2b MVP with impact stats that rival the best in history as a teams catalyst. The fact that you think I'm the on here who needs to do any "fooling" is truly epic. You're right though, we should probably accrue more of their ascent not to Curry being given the keys with Monta being traded, but backup Draymond Green.


Why, again, would we care to include 20 some odd games of an injured Curry? Their rise begins with him being healthy in year 4 and entering MVP form. Obviously, again, you don't win without help (keep ignoring that Jordan didn't have a winning record or a playoff win until year 4 as well), but if you can't grasp that he was BY FAR their best player and only reason why they had a chance to win that first title, you're lost dude.

I PROMISE you that every smart basketball mind is laughing their *** of at your guys' takes in this thread.

Jamiecballer
01-06-2019, 04:17 PM
Fair enough, and it's still irrelevant. Their relevance as a team coincided 100% with Curry being healthy in his actual 3rd year and being given the keys to the team with Monta being traded. If you can't grasp that he is the catalyst, I can't help you buddy. I literally spelled out the story for you.No, I appreciate your insider narrative but I think its garbage the way you are ducking facts to prop him up. Your idea of facts btw is unconventional. Jordan and Lebron having more help for their first title is not "fact", but the lack of winning at a decent rate until after Klay and Draymond joined is easily verifiable fact, which is what set you off on this little rant.

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tredigs
01-06-2019, 04:19 PM
they avoided the biggest potential challenge in there conference (a healthy Clippers team) and played two teams that had major injuries


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Were they the best team in the regular season? Yes. Were they the best team in the playoffs? Yes. Was Curry very clearly their best player in both the regular season or the playoffs? Yes. They don't control the rest bud. Those are the facts. You can be unimpressed if it helps you sleep better, but he played out of his mind all year and through the post-season, and led them to a title with less help than Jordan or Lebron had in their first titles.

Jamiecballer
01-06-2019, 04:21 PM
[emoji23] Bud you are the guys here trying to underplay the importance of a b2b MVP with impact stats that rival the best in history as a teams catalyst. The fact that you think I'm the on here who needs to do any "fooling" is truly epic. You're right though, we should probably accrue more of their ascent not to Curry being given the keys with Monta being traded, but backup Draymond Green.


Why, again, would we care to include 20 some odd games of an injured Curry? Their rise begins with him being healthy in year 4 and entering MVP form. Obviously, again, you don't win without help (keep ignoring that Jordan didn't have a winning record or a playoff win until year 4 as well), but if you can't grasp that he was BY FAR their best player and only reason why they had a chance to win that first title, you're lost dude.

I PROMISE you that every smart basketball mind is laughing their *** of at your guys' takes in this thread.

Again more misdirection, I didnt say Curry wasnt the biggest reason they won at all.

I agree with you, anyone who is using your replies to gauge what I am saying would be laughing, but that's the point of going overboard and putting words in my mouth isnt it? I'm comfortable relying on peoples ability to read what I've actually said, thanks.

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tredigs
01-06-2019, 04:26 PM
No, I appreciate your insider narrative but I think its garbage the way you are ducking facts to prop him up. Your idea of facts btw is unconventional. Jordan and Lebron having more help for their first title is not "fact", but the lack of winning at a decent rate until after Klay and Draymond joined is easily verifiable fact, which is what set you off on this little rant.

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Lmfao yes it is a fact that Jordan with Pippen and Horace Grant and Lebron with Wade and Bosh is more help than the 2015 version of Klay and Draymond. Check the stats if you're failing to remember, it's not close. And dude how many times do I have to tell you, you don't win a title on your own. Klay and Draymond had their roles. And Curry had THE role. He was their leader and best player, by a HUGE margin. What you don't get about that or why you have some vendetta against Curry I don't know. And with that I am done slapping you guys around. You clearly don't care to acknowledge stats/facts or eye test via video, so I'll let you be happy in your ignorance. I'll be over here enjoying Curry's continued domination for the 7th straight year.

ewing
01-06-2019, 04:30 PM
Were they the best team in the regular season? Yes. Were they the best team in the playoffs? Yes. Was Curry very clearly their best player in both the regular season or the playoffs? Yes. They don't control the rest bud. Those are the facts. You can be unimpressed if it helps you sleep better, but he played out of his mind all year and through the post-season, and led them to a title with less help than Jordan or Lebron had in their first titles.

Im not blaming them for having a fortunate road. Iím not going act like Curry did something like Dirk in 2011 either


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Tg11
01-06-2019, 04:42 PM
Curry 3 rings while Harden has 0 rings...for that reason alone Harden when it comes to championship pedigree he will always be inferior to Curry. Talk to me when Harden wins a Championship or he wins multiple titles because he hasn't done it and won't do it in Houston especially with that team he has.

JAZZNC
01-06-2019, 04:58 PM
I mean how is it not Curry? 2 time MVP. He continues to play at an MVP level anytime Durant is out. His game is fine in the regular season and doesn't completely fall off a cliff in the playoffs. Yes he didn't get Finals MVP over Iggy but but let's not act like he wasn't their best player. Does it look bad that he got as bothered as he did by Delevadova? Yes, but not nearly as bad as the dumpster fires Harden has put on display in the playoffs EVERY year. He was the best player on a championship team and the only reason he doesn't have a 4-peat on his resume is because of arguably the best player ever playing the best he's ever played. Harden has only been to the finals one time as a bench player and completely **** his pants. It's really not a question right now. Oh and Curry at the very least tries on the other end which Harden simply does not.

tredigs
01-06-2019, 05:02 PM
Im not blaming them for having a fortunate road. Iím not going act like Curry did something like Dirk in 2011 either


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Just have to acknowledge this next level goalpost movement by the goalpost moving King here. This is a thread about Curry versus Harden, not Dirk and his epic run (stats wise hilariously equal to Currys run by the way). Dirk being 2 years older then Currys current age at that, and long considered a playoff failure to that point. Continue on though.

ewing
01-06-2019, 05:10 PM
Just have to acknowledge this next level goalpost movement by the goalpost moving King here. This is a thread about Curry versus Harden, not Dirk and his epic run (stats wise hilariously equal to Currys run by the way). Dirk being 2 years older then Currys current age at that, and long considered a playoff failure to that point. Continue on though.

I took Curry in this thread. I was just calling out you for misrepresenting that 2015 run (youíre even doing it in this post).

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mngopher35
01-06-2019, 05:47 PM
Ya I mean the last time Curry was leading this team without Durant they lost in the finals with him playing poorly choking 3-1 lead. Durant it was WCF where he choked 3-1 lead. The last time we saw this team without Curry or Durant in the playoffs for a stretch they were beating Portland/Houston with Klay/Draymond.

One year after meeting Houston in WCF they went 2-1 without Curry and won a game he played 18 minutes going 2-9 with 5 turnovers. Essentially 3-1 against the Rockets without Curry and 2-1 against Portland to start the next series.

This is what I was getting at before on how it isn't like outside of support there has been a ton proven for any of these guys not just Harden. They choked last time they were leaders of their team/faced comparable talent. When they have had success it came with a lot of talent (Westy/Harden/Ibaka or Klay/Green/Iggy and later KD) and in Currys case when they won a title it came with injuries to competition.

I agree we can't just write off the advantages/accomplishments of Curry individually either which is why he is still my choice but we also shouldn't pretend the context isn't what it is.

IKnowHoops
01-07-2019, 01:41 AM
Lmfao yes it is a fact that Jordan with Pippen and Horace Grant and Lebron with Wade and Bosh is more help than the 2015 version of Klay and Draymond. Check the stats if you're failing to remember, it's not close. And dude how many times do I have to tell you, you don't win a title on your own. Klay and Draymond had their roles. And Curry had THE role. He was their leader and best player, by a HUGE margin. What you don't get about that or why you have some vendetta against Curry I don't know. And with that I am done slapping you guys around. You clearly don't care to acknowledge stats/facts or eye test via video, so I'll let you be happy in your ignorance. I'll be over here enjoying Curry's continued domination for the 7th straight year.

Itís not a fact they had more help bro. That bench you had was known to outplay all benched and many teams starters. Your starters were often times losing to The Cavs and your bench would come in and kill. After wade Bosh Bron, the Heat were as pathetic as it gets, meanwhile your team probably had the best bench in the nba. Stop

IKnowHoops
01-07-2019, 01:42 AM
Ya I mean the last time Curry was leading this team without Durant they lost in the finals with him playing poorly choking 3-1 lead. Durant it was WCF where he choked 3-1 lead. The last time we saw this team without Curry or Durant in the playoffs for a stretch they were beating Portland/Houston with Klay/Draymond.

One year after meeting Houston in WCF they went 2-1 without Curry and won a game he played 18 minutes going 2-9 with 5 turnovers. Essentially 3-1 against the Rockets without Curry and 2-1 against Portland to start the next series.

This is what I was getting at before on how it isn't like outside of support there has been a ton proven for any of these guys not just Harden. They choked last time they were leaders of their team/faced comparable talent. When they have had success it came with a lot of talent (Westy/Harden/Ibaka or Klay/Green/Iggy and later KD) and in Currys case when they won a title it came with injuries to competition.

I agree we can't just write off the advantages/accomplishments of Curry individually either which is why he is still my choice but we also shouldn't pretend the context isn't what it is.

This

nastynice
01-07-2019, 04:14 AM
I'll take curry over harden. He's just too deadly from too far. It's like having randy moss on the field. Even if you never throw him a pass the defense still has to cheat his way all game, opening things up.

Chronz
01-07-2019, 01:08 PM
Easiest of roles? Harden had a perennial DPOY, second best shooter of all time and was then gifted a MVP in his prime? Your non basketball delirium is now sleeping into your basketball takes, rendering you useless to converse with.
Even easier, he came off the bench all year remember. Try again

Chronz
01-07-2019, 01:08 PM
What do you mean by destroy the league analytically? Would he act like he is smarter then the league bc he listen to a Zach Lowe prodcast?


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His numbers would skyrocket under d antoni and away from kd

ewing
01-07-2019, 01:56 PM
His numbers would skyrocket under d antoni and away from kd

Maybe if he had a great pick and roll pick guard like Harden to set him up


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Chronz
01-07-2019, 02:15 PM
Maybe if he had a great pick and roll pick guard like Harden to set him up


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Nah, peep cp3s numbers last year with harden on the bench, I feel as tho that system is tailor made for 1 guy to shine but not several stars.

Saddletramp
01-07-2019, 04:14 PM
Even easier, he came off the bench all year remember. Try again

Oh, you were talking about the Finals series with the Thunder? When the Heat admitted to focusing in on a 23 year old bench player?

FlashBolt
01-08-2019, 12:57 AM
Oh, you were talking about the Finals series with the Thunder? When the Heat admitted to focusing in on a 23 year old bench player?

And he hasn't recovered from that since. Harden has a bad track record for the playoffs considering his regular season success. I saw it with the Thunder. He seemed lost and completely out of the game. Certainly didn't look like he wanted to be there at all.

Saddletramp
01-08-2019, 07:24 AM
Never mind. Talking about two different things so meh.

ewing
01-08-2019, 08:39 AM
Nah, peep cp3s numbers last year with harden on the bench, I feel as tho that system is tailor made for 1 guy to shine but not several stars.

Thatís bc CP3 needs to dribble the ball in one spot for 10 seconds before he does anything. Curry would just catch and shoot


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tredigs
01-08-2019, 12:59 PM
Itís not a fact they had more help bro. That bench you had was known to outplay all benched and many teams starters. Your starters were often times losing to The Cavs and your bench would come in and kill. After wade Bosh Bron, the Heat were as pathetic as it gets, meanwhile your team probably had the best bench in the nba. Stop

Bro you have some false narrative stuck in your head. They effectively ran a 7 man rotation in the playoffs + Finals (anybody over 10mpg) and Livingston as their main bench guy in the Finals posted one game of a +/- over +3 (their biggest blowout where everyone crushed). 3 of the 6 they lost points with him on the court. Iguodala split time starting and only posted an on-court positive net rating in the double digits when he was playing with Curry and the starters (and did so every time he played with Curry and the starters). Their two close losses were the two games Curry did not have a positive +/- (-2 and -4). I'm actually looking right now and there was a total of 5 games all season where Curry was a negative and the team won. 3 of those he was a -1 :laugh:.IE they go as he goes.


Curry led the league in RPM that year easily by the way (Lebron, Harden, AD and Kawhi filling in the rest of the top 5), with their two main bench options in Igoudala and Livingston coming in at 12th and 26th for their positions in the stat (a slight positive and an overall negative respectively per the numbers).

So yeah, I will go ahead and roll with Pippen and Wade with elite Power Forwards and great spacing shooters every day there.

tredigs
01-08-2019, 01:37 PM
Ya I mean the last time Curry was leading this team without Durant they lost in the finals with him playing poorly choking 3-1 lead. Durant it was WCF where he choked 3-1 lead. The last time we saw this team without Curry or Durant in the playoffs for a stretch they were beating Portland/Houston with Klay/Draymond.

One year after meeting Houston in WCF they went 2-1 without Curry and won a game he played 18 minutes going 2-9 with 5 turnovers. Essentially 3-1 against the Rockets without Curry and 2-1 against Portland to start the next series.

This is what I was getting at before on how it isn't like outside of support there has been a ton proven for any of these guys not just Harden. They choked last time they were leaders of their team/faced comparable talent. When they have had success it came with a lot of talent (Westy/Harden/Ibaka or Klay/Green/Iggy and later KD) and in Currys case when they won a title it came with injuries to competition.

I agree we can't just write off the advantages/accomplishments of Curry individually either which is why he is still my choice but we also shouldn't pretend the context isn't what it is.
This is some pretty interesting spin as well. Here is another version. The last time Curry was without KD he won an MVP in unanimous fashion for a 73 win team and put up arguably the best offensive season of this generation. He did get injured in the playoffs and they ultimately lost with him playing sub par in the Finals (multiple injuries and a suspension not helping the Warriors case obviously). Still, a clearly dominant season by Curry and the Warriors even if they did fall a minute short of the title that year. Lebron + Kyrie were incredible as well.

Klay + Draymond were in prime form by this season and yes could handle the 41 win Harden led Rockets who never should have even made the playoffs in the first place (Curry played the first half of the first game before the injury and he put up 24 and 7 and they were up 30). The 44 win Blazers were another underwhelming (and very welcomed) playoff matchup. The Warriors won their home games and then lost by double digits their first road game. They were down huge to start game 4 in Portland as well. Curry was still questionable but Kerr decided to sub him in off the bench and he absolutely exploded and carried them to the eventual OT win + closed it out the following game. If he did not return they would have been very likely tied 2-2 and in trouble.

With Curry and KD together Curry has easily led the team in RPM (3rd in the league those years with Chris Paul leading the league both times until this season) and they have mostly cruised to two titles (CP3 with Harden being their true top threat, but that diminished when CP went down). With Durant, Curry and the Warriors have been above the threshold. Same can't be said for Westbrook + Ibaka with Durant or Harden + Westbrook + Ibaka with Durant.

Oefarmy2005
01-09-2019, 01:25 PM
So much emphasis is being put on team records where these records are a product of TEAM play. I think Curry and Harden are pretty close, impact wise, but Harden is a better basketball player purely due to his bigger size and more position flexibility. Both are exceptional players in this era(doesn't mean much since you can't guard shooters). So for me, Harden by a hair, but I would still take a healthy Lebron over both even at age 34.

mngopher35
01-09-2019, 03:13 PM
This is some pretty interesting spin as well. Here is another version. The last time Curry was without KD he won an MVP in unanimous fashion for a 73 win team and put up arguably the best offensive season of this generation. He did get injured in the playoffs and they ultimately lost with him playing sub par in the Finals (multiple injuries and a suspension not helping the Warriors case obviously). Still, a clearly dominant season by Curry and the Warriors even if they did fall a minute short of the title that year. Lebron + Kyrie were incredible as well.

Klay + Draymond were in prime form by this season and yes could handle the 41 win Harden led Rockets who never should have even made the playoffs in the first place (Curry played the first half of the first game before the injury and he put up 24 and 7 and they were up 30). The 44 win Blazers were another underwhelming (and very welcomed) playoff matchup. The Warriors won their home games and then lost by double digits their first road game. They were down huge to start game 4 in Portland as well. Curry was still questionable but Kerr decided to sub him in off the bench and he absolutely exploded and carried them to the eventual OT win + closed it out the following game. If he did not return they would have been very likely tied 2-2 and in trouble.

With Curry and KD together Curry has easily led the team in RPM (3rd in the league those years with Chris Paul leading the league both times until this season) and they have mostly cruised to two titles (CP3 with Harden being their true top threat, but that diminished when CP went down). With Durant, Curry and the Warriors have been above the threshold. Same can't be said for Westbrook + Ibaka with Durant or Harden + Westbrook + Ibaka with Durant.

LOL this is what spin/deflection looks like. You start mumbling off about RS accomplishments when the whole focus has been Harden falling off in comparison come playoffs... Harden has an MVP/RS success as well but it is the falling off in the playoffs while not being surrounded by GS level talent people use to bring him down. It was a failed season in the aspect of winning a title as the first 73 win team and like even you say Curry played poorly in said series. Stop trying to downplay/deflect the reality of what happened when it matters. He may have dominated the RS like we said but this discussion has been about Hardens drop in the playoffs so maybe stick to that point and realize this is just you deflecting.

If those two are out there beating playoff teams alone then lets not act like those two aren't great support like some have been trying to do, yourself included. You labeled them by where they were drafted earlier ignoring 1st picks like Bogut etc. your the one going insane on the spinning here. Once again what I said is what actually happened you are just trying to deflect away from the significance of GS being capable of winning playoff games without Curry OR KD. It amazes me how the road for the Warriors can be so tough one year despite injuries to opponents then the next it was very easy because Curry was injured for part of it. Almost like you will just switch the narrative on a dime because... You are an extreme homer.

Great I never said anything about this stuff, just pointed out what has happened (like literally, without the spin job you have done). Curry can be more impactful than KD and that doesn't take away from anything I mentioned about before they joined up at all.

GS did lose in the finals with Curry playing bad. When they won other teams did have injuries (Kyrie/Love finals anyone). Klay and Draymond were out there winning playoff games as the leaders without Curry etc. You can prop up the injured competition from 15, downplay the competition when Curry was injured in 16 yet they were still winning, downplay Currys individual failures that post season/focus on RS etc. but it doesn't take away that everything I said there was true.

tredigs
01-09-2019, 04:18 PM
LOL this is what spin/deflection looks like. You start mumbling off about RS accomplishments when the whole focus has been Harden falling off in comparison come playoffs... Harden has an MVP/RS success as well but it is the falling off in the playoffs while not being surrounded by GS level talent people use to bring him down. It was a failed season in the aspect of winning a title as the first 73 win team and like even you say Curry played poorly in said series. Stop trying to downplay/deflect the reality of what happened when it matters. He may have dominated the RS like we said but this discussion has been about Hardens drop in the playoffs so maybe stick to that point and realize this is just you deflecting.

If those two are out there beating playoff teams alone then lets not act like those two aren't great support like some have been trying to do, yourself included. You labeled them by where they were drafted earlier ignoring 1st picks like Bogut etc. your the one going insane on the spinning here. Once again what I said is what actually happened you are just trying to deflect away from the significance of GS being capable of winning playoff games without Curry OR KD. It amazes me how the road for the Warriors can be so tough one year despite injuries to opponents then the next it was very easy because Curry was injured for part of it. Almost like you will just switch the narrative on a dime because... You are an extreme homer.

Great I never said anything about this stuff, just pointed out what has happened (like literally, without the spin job you have done). Curry can be more impactful than KD and that doesn't take away from anything I mentioned about before they joined up at all.

GS did lose in the finals with Curry playing bad. When they won other teams did have injuries (Kyrie/Love finals anyone). Klay and Draymond were out there winning playoff games as the leaders without Curry etc. You can prop up the injured competition from 15, downplay the competition when Curry was injured in 16 yet they were still winning, downplay Currys individual failures that post season/focus on RS etc. but it doesn't take away that everything I said there was true.

Wow did everything I spelled out for you fly right over your head that easily?

You're hilarious. #1, you write about separate seasons as if they are the same. "A year after the Rockets made the WCF the Warriors took them out in the playoffs without Curry". Yeah, no ****. That team was horrible. In scraping their way to .500, one of the worst WC playoff teams in the last decade. The Warriors cast - specifically Draymond who was now integrated into the offense as a playmaker and a newfound All Star - was also better. We had better damn hope a 73 win team can easily beat a .500 team regardless of one player being out. And that's the SINGLE series we have seen them win without Curry in those years (and possibly the only one they would have won). Had Curry not come back in G2 against Portland, they're 2-2 and fighting for their playoff life against a 44 win team. That's their level without Curry. They're not out there contending for any damn titles without him lol, let alone being labeled as one of the greatest teams in history. All the on-off metrics have shown this for over half a decade by the way. It's not a secret to anyone paying attention.

mngopher35
01-09-2019, 04:36 PM
Wow did everything I spelled out for you fly right over your head that easily?

You're hilarious. #1, you write about separate seasons as if they are the same. "A year after the Rockets made the WCF the Warriors took them out in the playoffs without Curry". Yeah, no ****. That team was horrible. In scraping their way to .500, one of the worst WC playoff teams in the last decade. The Warriors cast - specifically Draymond who was now integrated into the offense as a playmaker and a newfound All Star - was also better. We had better damn hope a 73 win team can easily beat a .500 team regardless of one player being out. And that's the SINGLE series we have seen them win without Curry in those years (and possibly the only one they would have won). Had Curry not come back in G2 against Portland, they're 2-2 and fighting for their playoff life against a 44 win team. That's their level without Curry. They're not out there contending for any damn titles without him lol, let alone being labeled as one of the greatest teams in history. All the on-off metrics have shown this for over half a decade by the way. It's not a secret to anyone paying attention.

I will give you Rockets weren't the same team that year but that doesn't change that they won does it (and if it does matter a ton then the context behind competition/injuries etc definitely matters a ton when speaking of that title). I am fine with using that context but then the context obviously goes both ways, Rockets were a low level playoff team and Green/Klay showed they were capable of that without Curry. Oh no if Curry doesn't come back they actually have a tough 2nd round matchup? Are you serious here? A team being in a position to at worst be tied in the 2nd round without their best player is a sign of just how capable this group is.

That's just strawman, where did I ever say they were competing for a title without him? Again I am simply pointing out the reality of what has happened and you are having troubles trying to spin/deflect it away. I think they are capable of making the WCF without Curry is essentially what you are saying here then if things go right, cool we agree? They might have beaten Portland might not but at worst they were headed towards a dog fight to be one of the only 4 remaining teams in the NBA without Curry OR Durant. This is pretty much my point lol I don't get how you are changing any sort of narritive other than saying it was against weaker teams (which I admit, just like 15 was weaker with the injuries etc).

So it seems you no longer disagree with me on the injuries/15, curry dropping off, anything about Durant dropping off and that KD/Curry did the things I said? You are simply trying to pointout that because those playoff teams weren't great they wouldn't win a title without Curry (a strawman I never mentioned)? Cool.

tredigs
01-09-2019, 04:44 PM
I will add, the toughest team/series the Warriors have faced before KD joined was the 2016 KD/Westbrook/Adams/Ibaka/Roberson Thunder. That was my favorite Klay series, but Curry was the best player on the court on either team and led them to the incredible comeback. No injuries, no BS. Curry averaging 33/7/8 +2.3 steals on 47/47/91 in the 3 win or go-home games. They lost the next series of course (beyond the obvious injuries to GS and the suspension, I don't think it exactly hurt Cleveland to cruise into that Finals with b2b 40 point wins over Toronto while GS battled for their season each game. East life), but let's not sit here and pretend we have not seen Curry tested by great teams and lead them to victory. In the prior season or that one. It's damn sure a hell of a lot more impressive than anything we have seen from Harden.

tredigs
01-09-2019, 04:50 PM
Ironic by the way that the one series we're talking about GS winning without Curry was over prime Harden (and Dwight and Ariza and Beverly). Harden averaging his standard 41/31/84 playoff slash in one of his many embarrassing playoff memories for us to look back on. That season for them as a whole was just a **** show.

Chronz
01-09-2019, 05:55 PM
Thatís bc CP3 needs to dribble the ball in one spot for 10 seconds before he does anything. Curry would just catch and shoot


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Lol, that's true.

So you mean someone like eric Gordon who just let's it pop off. Yeah , check his stats without harden too

Chronz
01-09-2019, 06:01 PM
Ironic by the way that the one series we're talking about GS winning without Curry was over prime Harden (and Dwight and Ariza and Beverly). Harden averaging his standard 41/31/84 playoff slash in one of his many embarrassing playoff memories for us to look back on. That season for them as a whole was just a **** show.

Just do what nobody wants to. Show harden's playoff stats if you disregard Dallas. It's truly pathetic. I don't expect the man to win but c'mon, at least show up. I asked before, what's currys worst series and (iirc) mngopher said his first championship series. Lol... a series where he was an arguable FMVP is his worst? Lmfao, then why is harden even in the same breath? He's closer to melo than a true superstar

Chronz
01-09-2019, 06:19 PM
Oh, you were talking about the Finals series with the Thunder? When the Heat admitted to focusing in on a 23 year old bench player?
Hence the easiest of roles (not even an all star load and could be keyed in on), if you had any semblance of deductive reasoning you would've never tried that strawman. We've seen harden underachieve in too many roles to ever think of him in that light. you legit had a plethora of examples so bringing up Draymond and klay when even pre peak curry outdoes him (with respect to their roles) is laughable.

mngopher35
01-09-2019, 06:28 PM
Just do what nobody wants to. Show harden's playoff stats if you disregard Dallas. It's truly pathetic. I don't expect the man to win but c'mon, at least show up. I asked before, what's currys worst series and (iirc) mngopher said his first championship series. Lol... a series where he was an arguable FMVP is his worst? Lmfao, then why is harden even in the same breath? He's closer to melo than a true superstar

Definitely don't think that was me, that 2016 finals would be my choice.

More turnover than assists for the series. Some big moments where he had iffy plays or wasn't stepping up (including being attacked on defense). 23 points per game with an overall ortg lower than both teams or the other "stars" in the series (102)...

Chronz
01-09-2019, 06:32 PM
Definitely don't think that was me, that 2016 finals would be my choice.

More turnover than assists for the series. Some big moments where he had iffy plays or wasn't stepping up (including being attacked on defense). 23 points per game with an overall ortg lower than both teams or the other "stars" in the series (102)...

Twas the Portland fan then, sorry I haven't slept in awhile and suffer from jet lag.

Saddletramp
01-09-2019, 08:41 PM
Hence the easiest of roles (not even an all star load and could be keyed in on), if you had any semblance of deductive reasoning you would've never tried that strawman. We've seen harden underachieve in too many roles to ever think of him in that light. you legit had a plethora of examples so bringing up Draymond and klay when even pre peak curry outdoes him (with respect to their roles) is laughable.

Are we talking about the same thing? Or are you just clueless? Are you arguing that Harden had the easiest of roles because he was the guy the Heat tried to stop first and foremost in that series? That doesnít make sense so we must be talking about two different things. Pronouns, bro.

Chronz
01-09-2019, 08:58 PM
Are we talking about the same thing? Or are you just clueless? Are you arguing that Harden had the easiest of roles because he was the guy the Heat tried to stop first and foremost in that series? That doesnít make sense so we must be talking about two different things. Pronouns, bro.
You couldn't key in on the rest cuz they weren't so easily exploitable. Are you truly suggesting a bench role is easier than carrying a team? ****ing clueless

Saddletramp
01-09-2019, 10:15 PM
You couldn't key in on the rest cuz they weren't so easily exploitable. Are you truly suggesting a bench role is easier than carrying a team? ****ing clueless

You were the one talking about the ďeasiest of rolesĒ and now youíre saying that Iím the one suggesting it?

To be clear, are you saying that Harden had the ďeasiest of rolesĒ in 2012 against the Heat and he choked?

FlashBolt
01-10-2019, 08:52 PM
You were the one talking about the ďeasiest of rolesĒ and now youíre saying that Iím the one suggesting it?

To be clear, are you saying that Harden had the ďeasiest of rolesĒ in 2012 against the Heat and he choked?

When I play basketball, I target the weakest player on the other team. That happened to be Harden. So what? He played bad. Get over it.

IKnowHoops
01-10-2019, 09:32 PM
I'll take curry over harden. He's just too deadly from too far. It's like having randy moss on the field. Even if you never throw him a pass the defense still has to cheat his way all game, opening things up.

No doubt

IKnowHoops
01-10-2019, 09:35 PM
Bro you have some false narrative stuck in your head. They effectively ran a 7 man rotation in the playoffs + Finals (anybody over 10mpg) and Livingston as their main bench guy in the Finals posted one game of a +/- over +3 (their biggest blowout where everyone crushed). 3 of the 6 they lost points with him on the court. Iguodala split time starting and only posted an on-court positive net rating in the double digits when he was playing with Curry and the starters (and did so every time he played with Curry and the starters). Their two close losses were the two games Curry did not have a positive +/- (-2 and -4). I'm actually looking right now and there was a total of 5 games all season where Curry was a negative and the team won. 3 of those he was a -1 :laugh:.IE they go as he goes.


Curry led the league in RPM that year easily by the way (Lebron, Harden, AD and Kawhi filling in the rest of the top 5), with their two main bench options in Igoudala and Livingston coming in at 12th and 26th for their positions in the stat (a slight positive and an overall negative respectively per the numbers).

So yeah, I will go ahead and roll with Pippen and Wade with elite Power Forwards and great spacing shooters every day there.

Thatís funny, I remember Barbosa going ham on the Cavs and bringing them back from a deficit the starters put them in. Like 8-10 consecutive points to completely change the game as if he was Mike Beasley last night.

Saddletramp
01-10-2019, 09:36 PM
When I play basketball, I target the weakest player on the other team. That happened to be Harden. So what? He played bad. Get over it.

Nothing to get over. You obviously donít understand what I was questioning. Question: Does that player you target on the other team have the ďeasiest of rolesĒ?

IKnowHoops
01-10-2019, 09:37 PM
I will add, the toughest team/series the Warriors have faced before KD joined was the 2016 KD/Westbrook/Adams/Ibaka/Roberson Thunder. That was my favorite Klay series, but Curry was the best player on the court on either team and led them to the incredible comeback. No injuries, no BS. Curry averaging 33/7/8 +2.3 steals on 47/47/91 in the 3 win or go-home games. They lost the next series of course (beyond the obvious injuries to GS and the suspension, I don't think it exactly hurt Cleveland to cruise into that Finals with b2b 40 point wins over Toronto while GS battled for their season each game. East life), but let's not sit here and pretend we have not seen Curry tested by great teams and lead them to victory. In the prior season or that one. It's damn sure a hell of a lot more impressive than anything we have seen from Harden.

Haha, what about the team they lost to and against a player heís never been better than in a series and actually not even close to. Haha...Tre

FlashBolt
01-10-2019, 10:57 PM
Nothing to get over. You obviously donít understand what I was questioning. Question: Does that player you target on the other team have the ďeasiest of rolesĒ?

It was only Harden, Westbrook, or Durant getting the ball. Harden was the weakest link of those three and so he was targeted. End of story. I saw the series and no one in OKC thought Harden was ready for the moment. It happens. I don't blame Harden. We lost to a better team. Yet you are still defending him when he wasn't even on the Rockets at that point.. What are you really trying to defend?

Saddletramp
01-10-2019, 11:04 PM
It was only Harden, Westbrook, or Durant getting the ball. Harden was the weakest link of those three and so he was targeted. End of story. I saw the series and no one in OKC thought Harden was ready for the moment. It happens. I don't blame Harden. We lost to a better team. Yet you are still defending him when he wasn't even on the Rockets at that point.. What are you really trying to defend?

Weíre talking about two different things. Re-read what Chronz said about Harden having the easiest road that series. If I understand him correctly, heís.....heís......I donít know exactly what he is other than wrong.

FlashBolt
01-10-2019, 11:33 PM
Weíre talking about two different things. Re-read what Chronz said about Harden having the easiest road that series. If I understand him correctly, heís.....heís......I donít know exactly what he is other than wrong.

From what I'm reading, Harden didn't even have the load he has right now and was stopped. Would you agree he's had an easier role in OKC than Houston? So even though he's targeted more now in Houston than in OKC, that doesn't negate the other. The fact is, and we all saw it, it wasn't that he played bad because I get it, he was only 23. It's the fact that he looked like he didn't want to play at all and I haven't changed my mind about that when I watch him in the playoffs at times. Miami Heat targeting him had everything to do with the fact that even they knew Harden was being exposed at that point. Not a single OKC fan could defend him regardless of what you stated but it's funny you are here defending him when he had nothing to do with the Rockets at all.

Saddletramp
01-10-2019, 11:52 PM
From what I'm reading, Harden didn't even have the load he has right now and was stopped. Would you agree he's had an easier role in OKC than Houston? So even though he's targeted more now in Houston than in OKC, that doesn't negate the other. The fact is, and we all saw it, it wasn't that he played bad because I get it, he was only 23. It's the fact that he looked like he didn't want to play at all and I haven't changed my mind about that when I watch him in the playoffs at times. Miami Heat targeting him had everything to do with the fact that even they knew Harden was being exposed at that point. Not a single OKC fan could defend him regardless of what you stated but it's funny you are here defending him when he had nothing to do with the Rockets at all.

JFC Iím not defending him. Im wondering how the hell he had an ďeasy pathĒ in that series.

FlashBolt
01-11-2019, 12:04 AM
JFC Iím not defending him. Im wondering how the hell he had an ďeasy pathĒ in that series.

I'm guessing because he was playing behind two All-Stars and a top five player in KD/top fifteen in Westbrook? I mean, at that time, OKC was looked at as the most talented team in the NBA. I know people will say Miami Heat were but we had four of the top young players in the game. If you thought Draymond was a great defender for the Warriors, Serge had every bit of the same reputation. He led the league in shotblocking and was an All-NBA 1st team defender. We had more talent than any other team and were the Vegas favorites to win. It certainly was an easier role than what he's going through now, no? I wouldn't say he was a star back then but he certainly was looked upon to be one and when that Finals ended, there were talks about his partying habits and inability to perform in the Finals that ultimately, outside of money, forced us to side with Ibaka. Yeah, it's a crappy decision in hindsight but I had no problem with it back then considering he did nothing for us in the Finals. Literally nothing, man. Part of why we were so good that season was because Harden was our "Manu." If he didn't play well, it was a two-man team with Ibaka just playing defense. He didn't step up when he was naturally a third option on the team.

Saddletramp
01-11-2019, 01:35 AM
I'm guessing because he was playing behind two All-Stars and a top five player in KD/top fifteen in Westbrook? I mean, at that time, OKC was looked at as the most talented team in the NBA. I know people will say Miami Heat were but we had four of the top young players in the game. If you thought Draymond was a great defender for the Warriors, Serge had every bit of the same reputation. He led the league in shotblocking and was an All-NBA 1st team defender. We had more talent than any other team and were the Vegas favorites to win. It certainly was an easier role than what he's going through now, no? I wouldn't say he was a star back then but he certainly was looked upon to be one and when that Finals ended, there were talks about his partying habits and inability to perform in the Finals that ultimately, outside of money, forced us to side with Ibaka. Yeah, it's a crappy decision in hindsight but I had no problem with it back then considering he did nothing for us in the Finals. Literally nothing, man. Part of why we were so good that season was because Harden was our "Manu." If he didn't play well, it was a two-man team with Ibaka just playing defense. He didn't step up when he was naturally a third option on the team.

Still not the easiest but didnít the Thunder let Harden go because they wanted to keep Perkins?

IKnowHoops
01-12-2019, 01:27 AM
This year right now itís Harden and itís not even that close. Heís throwing up 40 pt triple doubles left and right. If this was Lebron doing this weíd laugh at Curry being compared to him. Harden is balling the F out right now and heís playing better than anyone in the league. Playoffs things could change and probably will, but today itís Harden easily. And Iím not saying heís way better when I say easily, but Iím saying itís clear heís been outplaying Curry

LA_Raiders
01-14-2019, 02:17 AM
Curry, Harden is a shoke artist when it matters.

Heediot
01-14-2019, 09:35 AM
Not a fan of Harden or RW, these guys are egotistical stat padders. The extent they go to to get numbers turns me off.

mightybosstone
01-14-2019, 11:23 AM
Curry, Harden is a shoke artist when it matters.

What's a "shoke artist?"

Redrum187
01-14-2019, 02:59 PM
Curry dropped 11 out of 19 bombs last night... Harden dropped 1 out of 17. :laugh:

I know I know... it's just one game sample size... relax. Just thought it was funny.

tredigs
01-14-2019, 03:04 PM
Harden is clipping at 16/17 Westbrooks heels for the highest usage season in NBA history. Gonna brute force his way to another MVP.

Scoots
01-14-2019, 03:08 PM
Harden is clipping at 16/17 Westbrooks heels for the highest usage season in NBA history. Gonna brute force his way to another MVP.

Did Westbrook get out of the first round that year?

ewing
01-14-2019, 03:39 PM
Luka!