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LaVar Ball
12-30-2018, 03:36 PM
Or is he just a regular season player? Still unproven in the playoffs.


To me, the definition of a superstar is one who is exception in the regular season but takes it to another level come playoff time.


Is he just a really really good talent and franchise level player but not a true superstar until he proves it in the playoffs?



Thoughts?

-Kobe24-TJ19-
12-30-2018, 03:40 PM
yes he is, absolutely.

There's no argument to say otherwise. Period.

GREATNESS ONE
12-30-2018, 03:43 PM
I can't stand him or his flopping flailing arms game but sure nowadays he is one...

aman_13
12-30-2018, 04:06 PM
He absolutely is and it's not debatable. He can be frustrating to watch, but he is probably the most unguardable player in the game.

Chronz
12-30-2018, 04:18 PM
yes he is, absolutely.

There's no argument to say otherwise. Period.

Only cuz the standards have dwindled in this era

buckalis
12-30-2018, 04:18 PM
He absolutely is and it's not debatable. He can be frustrating to watch, but he is probably the most unguardable player in the game.

Second only to Giannis

Heediot
12-30-2018, 04:28 PM
He absolutely is and it's not debatable. He can be frustrating to watch, but he is probably the most unguardable player in the game.

In the regular season.

I don't like his skills late in the game, yeah he as his moments, but I think he can be shut down in a sense, especially in the playoffs. I don't think he's elite at creating space for his shot, or finishing through contact which is what is needed more in high pressure situations and whistles are less likely to be blown. Most of the time when they spread out late in the game the guy dribbles for 20 plus seconds and jacks a contested three.

mightybosstone
12-30-2018, 04:35 PM
I'm not going to feed a troll. I hope the mods will do the right thing and block this absurd garbage excuse of a thread.

Chronz
12-30-2018, 04:41 PM
I'm not going to feed a troll. I hope the mods will do the right thing and block this absurd garbage excuse of a thread.

Hoping for censorship, always a good decision. Especially when it's something iterated about harden since his ascent to alleged stardom

mightybosstone
12-30-2018, 05:02 PM
Hoping for censorship, always a good decision. Especially when it's something iterated about harden since his ascent to alleged stardom

Dude is the reigning MVP, has finished in the top two two other times and is looking to be a legitimate MVP candidate with the things he's accomplishing this season with just truly an otherworldly level of offensive production that some posters on PSD love to overlook. He's not even 30 years old yet, and he's on pace to be in the top 75 in both all-time points and assists, top 100 in all-time steals and top 10 in all-time 3-pointers by season's end. If you don't think he's a superstar, then you don't know what the term "superstar" means.

As for you, didn't you just admit a few days ago that you've watched one NBA game all season long and that you don't really care anymore? For someone who doesn't care, you certainly seem to have passionate opinions and continue to post a lot. If I didn't care, I think I could find a better use of my time... :shrug:

Chronz
12-30-2018, 05:34 PM
Dude is the reigning MVP, has finished in the top two two other times and is looking to be a legitimate MVP candidate with the things he's accomplishing this season with just truly an otherworldly level of offensive production that some posters on PSD love to overlook. He's not even 30 years old yet, and he's on pace to be in the top 75 in both all-time points and assists, top 100 in all-time steals and top 10 in all-time 3-pointers by season's end. If you don't think he's a superstar, then you don't know what the term "superstar" means.

As for you, didn't you just admit a few days ago that you've watched one NBA game all season long and that you don't really care anymore? For someone who doesn't care, you certainly seem to have passionate opinions and continue to post a lot. If I didn't care, I think I could find a better use of my time... :shrug:
The reason you don't know what it means is because you ignore the very purpose of this thread. You would rather feign intellectual superiority. Put it this way, would you call max kellerman a troll? How about the plethora of pundits that have echoed what's soo obvious about him. There are ways of substantiating this claim ffs. Do not call for censorship when it's his manifesto.


I have dropped off alot, but thanks for remembering a random post where I got different responses, it's people like you that I still post here. Hate to break it to you but the nba has gotten to a point where watching the game has become less relevant thanks to the homogenization of the product. You prolly could make better use of your time, no fight there

LaVar Ball
12-30-2018, 05:49 PM
The reason you don't know what it means is because you ignore the very purpose of this thread. You would rather feign intellectual superiority. Put it this way, would you call max kellerman a troll? How about the plethora of pundits that have echoed what's soo obvious about him. There are ways of substantiating this claim ffs. Do not call for censorship when it's his manifesto.


I have dropped off alot, but thanks for remembering a random post where I got different responses, it's people like you that I still post here. Hate to break it to you but the nba has gotten to a point where watching the game has become less relevant thanks to the homogenization of the product. You prolly could make better use of your time, no fight there

:clap:

buckalis
12-30-2018, 05:51 PM
Man... One integrates James Harden in today's Milwaukee Bucks next to Giannis and ends up with a team that would have the GSW "eating" at least 130pts for each and every time the two teams would meet, as well as have an offense that averages 145pts against the rest of the league!

Chronz
12-30-2018, 06:11 PM
Man... One integrates James Harden in today's Milwaukee Bucks next to Giannis and ends up with a team that would have the GSW "eating" at least 130pts for each and every time the two teams would meet, as well as have an offense that averages 145pts against the rest of the league!

That might be because one of them entertains their true purpose as a sidekick. Guess which one it would be

buckalis
12-30-2018, 06:14 PM
That might be because one of them entertains their true purpose as a sidekick. Guess which one it would be

"might be" are the key words... but what "would be", won't "might be"...

GREATNESS ONE
12-30-2018, 06:17 PM
That might be because one of them entertains their true purpose as a sidekick. Guess which one it would be

Yikes! **mic drop**

buckalis
12-30-2018, 06:21 PM
"might be" are the key words... but what "would be", won't "might be"...

Yikes! **mic drop**

Chronz
12-30-2018, 06:21 PM
"might be" are the key words... but what "would be", won't "might be"...

Forgot to mention. Your 145 to 130 projection, means much less in the defensive era. Im sure you already knew that but i'm just making sure , you know how ***** basketball has become

buckalis
12-30-2018, 06:30 PM
"might be" are the key words... but what "would be", won't "might be"...


Yikes! **mic drop**


Forgot to mention. Your 145 to 130 projection, means much less in the defensive era. Im sure you already knew that but i'm just making sure , you know how ***** basketball has become

I'm not sure on your stability... when did I ever projected 145 to 130 scores? All I said is that "if Harden would be integrated within the Bucks roster next to Giannis, then GSW would "eat" at least 130 each and every time the two teams meet and that the rest of the league would "eat" an average of 145"... Bucks defense stays as is or improves...

Chronz
12-30-2018, 06:41 PM
I'm not sure on your stability... when did I ever projected 145 to 130 scores? All I said is that "if Harden would be integrated within the Bucks roster next to Giannis, then GSW would "eat" at least 130 each and every time the two teams meet and that the rest of the league would "eat" an average of 145"... Bucks defense stays as is or improves...

Umm nothing changes given I'm comparing it to a defensive era. Tbh, idgaf what fake number you pulled from your ***

buckalis
12-30-2018, 06:47 PM
"might be" are the key words... but what "would be", won't "might be"...


Yikes! **mic drop**


Umm nothing changes given I'm comparing it to a defensive era. Tbh, idgaf what fake number you pulled from your ***

What fake number are you talking about? it's only an estimation which I post as an opinion... If you are entitled to have an "opinion" and post all kind of nonesense here, so much more others can post fully justifiable opinions that are based on actual players stats... I'm still not sure about your (mental) stability...

aman_13
12-30-2018, 06:59 PM
In the regular season.

I don't like his skills late in the game, yeah he as his moments, but I think he can be shut down in a sense, especially in the playoffs. I don't think he's elite at creating space for his shot, or finishing through contact which is what is needed more in high pressure situations and whistles are less likely to be blown. Most of the time when they spread out late in the game the guy dribbles for 20 plus seconds and jacks a contested three.I disagree with that. I think he's elite at both. His ability to draw fouls and make most of the way the game is played should be commended but it's just frustrating because it's a reflection of what's the wrong with the game today. But if we look at it for what it is, he's an elite player by every sense of the word.

Sent from my SGH-I337M using Tapatalk

Jamiecballer
12-30-2018, 07:04 PM
Chronz == Lavar? Mind blown.

Sent from my SM-A520W using Tapatalk

Chronz
12-30-2018, 07:08 PM
What fake number are you talking about? it's only an estimation which I post as an opinion... If you are entitled to have an "opinion" and post all kind of nonesense here, so much more others can post fully justifiable opinions that are based on actual players stats... I'm still not sure about your (mental) stability...

Fake number, not rooted in mathematical probabilities but more importantly, arbitrary in how it doesn't change my point. Your opinion on things you must speculate about are entirely irrelevant to those of us who math

mightybosstone
12-30-2018, 07:10 PM
The reason you don't know what it means is because you ignore the very purpose of this thread. You would rather feign intellectual superiority.
It's not about being intellectually superior, chief. It's about common ****ing sense. The very purpose of the thread is ignorant. Because if the only way to define "superstar" is "an athlete who takes it to the next level in the playoffs," then 90-95 percent of all Hall of Famers would likely not be superstars. MOST players see a dropoff in production and efficiency in the playoffs. Harden is not alone in that regard. And, historically, there are guys who have seen a far greater dropoff than him. Do we eliminate the Karl Malones and Gary Paytons from the definition of "superstar" solely because their postseason production was far lesser than their regular season production?

Also, forget the dropoff for a second. Just look at Harden's numbers over the last couple of years. The last two years, he essentially averaged 29/7/5/2 in the playoffs with an average to above average scoring efficiency, a 23-25 PER, a .160 WS/48 and an 8 BPM. How many players in the history of the game would be capable of that level of production in the playoffs? 20-30? But because we have individual moments we can point to where he failed and his production was a substantial decline from his regular season numbers, fans deem him this colossal failure.

Am I trying to suggest Harden doesn't deserve a reputation as a playoff choker? No. He has not played well enough in the postseason to kick that label, and those few moments that stand out (the Spurs series and the 12 turnover game) warrant that moniker. But the idea that he's completely useless in the playoffs and that a team can't win with him as its best player is completely absurd. Put him on the Warriors and surround him with that level of talent and see how many titles he would have won.


Put it this way, would you call max kellerman a troll? How about the plethora of pundits that have echoed what's soo obvious about him. There are ways of substantiating this claim ffs. Do not call for censorship when it's his manifesto.
In many ways, yes, I would. The Max Kellermans, Stephen A. Smiths and Skip Baylesses of the world are the worst kind of trolls. Their surface level analysis requires no real thought or research, and their opinions are constantly flipping without any real justification. Kellerman is the perfect example. Look at his take on the Rockets last season; he was singing their praises all season long and was all over the "Rockets can beat the Warriors" bandwagon. Then somewhere between last year and this year, suddenly the Rockets are trash and Harden is no longer this star player he believed him to be last year. What changed?


I have dropped off alot, but thanks for remembering a random post where I got different responses, it's people like you that I still post here. Hate to break it to you but the nba has gotten to a point where watching the game has become less relevant thanks to the homogenization of the product. You prolly could make better use of your time, no fight there
That's your opinion, and you're entitled to it. But you're starting to fall into that category of posters who only ***** about the game and rarely ever have anything positive to say. If you hate the NBA so much and you think the game and its players are trash, why are you posting on an internet sports forum dedicated to the discussion of it? What purpose does that serve, and wouldn't you rather devote that time to something you ACTUALLY give a **** about?

I agree that we could all make better use of our time than posting here, but the difference between you and I is I'm actually still passionate about it. Whether the Rockets are great or the Rockets are trash, I'll still care about the team and the game. I've posted less and less over the last couple of years, and that's probably going to continue once my son is born, but my love of the Rockets and for the NBA isn't going anywhere. Yours clearly left you some time ago, so why be so angry and bitter about it? Why not just move on?

Edit: Fixing Harden's numbers and eliminating apostrophes

Chronz
12-30-2018, 07:10 PM
Dude fix your post, I know its minor compared to your ignorance but it bugs me when people keep making the same mistake. You do know how this forum works right


Aimed at bucks guy. Not mbt

Scoots
12-30-2018, 07:13 PM
I'm not going to feed a troll. I hope the mods will do the right thing and block this absurd garbage excuse of a thread.

If the OP was trolling, posting this IS feeding the troll.

mightybosstone
12-30-2018, 07:21 PM
If the OP was trolling, posting this IS feeding the troll.

If you're not going to take it down, someone has to actually defend Harden and point out how ****ing ignorant this thread is. If someone had posted the same thread bashing Curry, something tells me the thread wouldn't still be up right now... :eyebrow:

buckalis
12-30-2018, 07:23 PM
Dude fix your post, I know its minor compared to your ignorance but it bugs me when people keep making the same mistake. You do know how this forum works right


Aimed at bucks guy. Not mbt

Is NBA trade machine based on a math model? I would assume one can't deny this...

I just tried the following... traded Harden to the Bucks for Ilyasova, Bledsoe and Snell (about 35+ points per game for the Bucks)... it gives me +8 wins per season for the Bucks... Just imagine integrating Harden without moving the players... :D

Chronz
12-30-2018, 07:24 PM
It's not about being intellectually superior, chief. It's about common ****ing sense.
Those who claim dominion over common sense are usually those who think they know better, especially when they cry for censorship.



The very purpose of the thread is ignorant. Because if the only way to define "superstar" is "an athlete who takes it to the next level in the playoffs," then 90-95 percent of all Hall of Famers would likely not be superstars.

That's not how I took it at all, and i'm actually someone whos ran thru the statistical disparity in playoff vs regular season numbers. Its not ignorance to disagree with mbt.





MOST players see a dropoff in production and efficiency in the playoffs. Harden is not alone in that regard. And, historically, there are guys who have seen a far greater dropoff than him. Do we eliminate the Karl Malone's and Gary Payton's from the definition of "superstar" solely because their postseason production was far lesser than their regular season production?



Umm, I've seen you trash karl for years bro. It really depends on what you qualify as the litmus test. So yeah, you theoretically could bar them from superstardom. Make the case instead of whining.





Also, forget the dropoff for a second. Just look at Harden's numbers over the last couple of years. The last two years, he essentially averaged 27/7/5/2 in the playoffs with an average to above average scoring efficiency, a 23-25 PER, a .160 WS/48 and an 8 BPM. How many players in the history of the game would be capable of that level of production in the playoffs? 20-30? But because we have individual moments we can point to where he failed and his production was a substantial decline from his regular season numbers, fans deem him this colossal failure.



I disagree entirely, given today's era, I feel many more could outpace the likes of harden, hence the debate. I know you so badly wan't to mock the topic but ur hero ain't donned his Cape just yet.





Am I trying to suggest Harden doesn't deserve a reputation as a playoff choker? No. He has not played well enough in the postseason to kick that label, and those few moments that stand out (the Spurs series and the 12 turnover game) warrant that moniker. But the idea that he's completely useless in the playoffs and that a team can't win with him as its best player is completely absurd. Put him on the Warriors and surround him with that level of talent and see how many titles he would have won.


Ive seen you make this argument, no I don't think curry is at the level of chokedom where this "givem the dubs" applies.




In many ways, yes, I would. The Max Kellerman's, Stephen A. Smith's and Skip Baylesses of the world are the worst kind of trolls. Their surface level analysis requires no real thought or research, and their opinions are constantly flipping without any real justification. Kellerman is the perfect example. Look at his take on the Rockets last season; he was singing their praises all season long and was all over the "Rockets can beat the Warriors" bandwagon. Then somewhere between last year and this year, suddenly the Rockets are trash and Harden is no longer this star player he believed him to be last year. What changed?

He explained himself pretty well on zach's pod but ok, maybe all the pundits are wrong and you're the master, show me a barometer. Say circumstances come into play, what if someone has a different opinion on what his failures should have looked liked? Again, it's not about a reduction in performance given the playoff competition but about reduction beyond standard deviation. We can hide behind sample sizes but imo, the player must have had that small minute moment. When was harden's?





That's your opinion, and you're entitled to it. But you're starting to fall into that category of posters who only ***** about the game and rarely ever have anything positive to say. If you hate the NBA so much and you think the game and its players are trash, why are you posting on an internet sports forum dedicated to the discussion of it? What purpose does that serve, and wouldn't you rather devote that time to something you ACTUALLY give a **** about?

I agree that we could all make better use of our time than posting here, but the difference between you and I is I'm actually still passionate about it. Whether the Rockets are great or the Rockets are trash, I'll still care about the team and the game. I've posted less and less over the last couple of years, and that's probably going to continue once my son is born, but my love of the Rockets and for the NBA isn't going anywhere. Yours clearly left you some time ago, so why be so angry and bitter about it? Why not just move on?
What makes you feel you know my emotions? This is all fun for me.

buckalis
12-30-2018, 07:28 PM
I wonder if these trolls are trying to convince their own selfs, or the rest of the world...

I mean, OK... they've proved in many different times that their basketball knowledge is below zero, but trying to diminish one of the greatest players ever in the world is too much... just too much of provocation...

One must be seriously mentally disturbed as to try this...

Chronz
12-30-2018, 07:28 PM
Is NBA trade machine based on a math model? I would assume one can't deny this...

I just tried the following... traded Harden to the Bucks for Ilyasova, Bledsoe and Snell (about 35+ points per game for the Bucks)... it gives me +8 wins per season for the Bucks... Just imagine integrating Harden without moving the players... :D

PER isn't fit for this kind of projection, especially when it doesn't translate anything in the way of usage and efficiency. The reason espn uses it is because they had hollingers work from before he began serious research, of which is now proprietary information for another boss.

Chronz
12-30-2018, 07:30 PM
I wonder if these trolls are trying to convince their own selfs, or the rest of the world...
The world. It's hard to identify professional trolls but they would definitely be a part of the MSM

Chronz
12-30-2018, 07:31 PM
If you're not going to take it down, someone has to actually defend Harden and point out how ****ing ignorant this thread is. If someone had posted the same thread bashing Curry, something tells me the thread wouldn't still be up right now... :eyebrow:
Prolly bias and not any actual research

buckalis
12-30-2018, 07:34 PM
I wonder if these trolls are trying to convince their own selfs, or the rest of the world...

I mean, OK... they've proved in many different times that their basketball knowledge is below zero, but trying to diminish one of the greatest players ever in the world is too much... just too much of provocation...

One must be seriously mentally disturbed as to try this...

buckalis
12-30-2018, 07:38 PM
OK... Now we know... The sun rises from the west!:hi5:

mightybosstone
12-30-2018, 07:50 PM
Those who claim dominion over common sense are usually those who think they know better, especially when they cry for censorship.
There's a difference between having a minority opinion and having an opinion that's so far in the minority that it defies basic logic. This falls into the latter category for me.


That's not how I took it at all, and i'm actually someone whos ran thru the statistical disparity in playoff vs regular season numbers. Its not ignorance to disagree with mbt.
Then how do you look at it? You're not really debating what I'm saying here at all. You're just saying that you acknowledge it's a thing. So are players who experience a dropoff in production from the regular season to the postseason superstars or aren't they?


Umm, I've seen you trash karl for years bro. It really depends on what you qualify as the litmus test. So yeah, you theoretically could bar them from superstardom. Make the case instead of whining.
Yes, but even I wouldn't be so ignorant as to suggest Malone wasn't a superstar. He was a great player; that's the reason I hate him so much. Because he and Stockton killed the Rockets, and I loathed him because he was great. His playoff failures are just an opportunity for me to bash the guy. And while I admit that factor prevents me from listing him as high in my personal rankings as others, and I do think he's overrated, that hardly means I don't think he's one of the 30 greatest players of all time. (And someone should save this post, because it's probably the only time I'll ever say this on PSD.)


I disagree entirely, given today's era, I feel many more could outpace the likes of harden, hence the debate. I know you so badly wan't to mock the topic but ur hero ain't donned his Cape just yet.
Really? How many guys could hit that stepback 30-footer to the same degree of success in the same volume as Harden? His success on that shot given its degree of difficulty is absurd. And he's one of the greatest isolation basketball players in the history of the NBA. Combine his eurostep with his ability to keep his defenders off balance, his court vision and the range on his shot, and how many players in NBA history could mirror his game? Nobody.

Just because the guy draws a few fouls a game that people believe are cheap doesn't make his game any less impressive. Take away the free throws, and he still scores 24 points a game, which would STILL be the most of any player in the NBA. The free throws are just icing on the cake.


Ive seen you make this argument, no I don't think curry is at the level of chokedom where this "givem the dubs" applies.
Take away that one Cavs Finals loss, and the Warriors haven't played a single seven-game series the last four years aside from the Rockets last year. The last two years, they lost only once in a playoff series at home (against Houston). You really think a team that dominant wouldn't have been able to win three titles in four years if you replace Curry with Harden? I'll kindly agree to disagree.


He explained himself pretty well on zach's pod but ok, maybe all the pundits are wrong and you're the master, show me a barometer. Say circumstances come into play, what if someone has a different opinion on what his failures should have looked liked? Again, it's not about a reduction in performance given the playoff competition but about reduction beyond standard deviation. We can hide behind sample sizes but imo, the player must have had that small minute moment. When was harden's?
What do you mean by "small minute moment?" Because James has had some remarkable games and moments in the playoffs in his career. Nobody talked about his Game 1 against Golden State last year, because he was unbelievable but the team lost, because everyone else was trash. I was in Toyota Center versus the Jazz last year when he completely dominated Utah and set the tone for the entire series last year, making Donovan Mitchell look like a child. He did the same thing against Minnesota. I remember how he outplayed Westbrook in the first round in 2017, the Game 3 win against the Warriors in 2016 when they had no business winning any games that year and the Game 4 victory against them the previous year in an elimination game when he gave Rockets fans hope, even if it was just for a minute.

Nobody wants to talk about those games, because the failures outweigh those moments. But that doesn't mean those moments don't exist.


What makes you feel you know my emotions? This is all fun for me.
I don't. I know you only so far as you can know someone who posts anonymously about sports on an internet sports forum. So when I read you say things about how much you don't care, how you've only watched one game this year and I see so much negativity from you about the overall game and its players, I kind of have to take that at face value, don't I? I don't pretend to know every single thought or emotion you have. But you seem to genuinely loathe the state of the league right now and be pretty apathetic to watching games. And if you feel that way, I don't see any reason to keep talking about it and devoting so much attention to it.

Scoots
12-30-2018, 08:00 PM
Elite is not the same as superstar. No question he's elite. To be a superstar you have to transcend the game and be widely known by people who are not NBA fans ... he might be but I'd bet not.

mightybosstone
12-30-2018, 08:00 PM
And, honestly, I've already devoted WAY too much of my own time and energy on this discussion, which I had no intention of really debating in the first place. I give you the benefit of the doubt, chronz, because I've always enjoyed discussing basketball with you and you've always struck me as an intelligent, thoughtful guy. But the level of hate for Harden in this forum drives me batshit crazy, and this thread is the epitome of that thoughtless hate.

The fact that this thread gets posted in the same ****ing month in which Harden is averaging an absurd 36/8/6/2 on .448/.407/.887 shooting percentages and when he's on a streak of nine straight 30+ point games (eight of them victories) and pretty much single-handedly keeping the Rockets afloat with Paul out shows you the intent of this poster and how easy it is to stir up anti-Harden discussion on this site.

The discussion on this site SHOULD be how incredible he's playing and how much he's doing to keep them in the playoff conversation despite injuries and the early struggles of the team. I've watched all but one of those games, and what he's done is unmatched by any Rocket I've had the pleasure of watching since Hakeem. It's truly remarkable, and it's kind of a bummer that the rest of PSD not only chooses not to acknowledge it, but would rather ignore it and bash the guy for his previous failures.

But if there was ever a pro-Harden thread on PSD that wasn't created by a Rockets fan, it might break the universe as we know it and rip the fabric of space and time.

mightybosstone
12-30-2018, 08:07 PM
Elite is not the same as superstar. No question he's elite. To be a superstar you have to transcend the game and be widely known by people who are not NBA fans ... he might be but I'd bet not.

I think probably as many people know who James Harden is as who know Durant or Curry. A few months back, I was having a conversation with my mother about something, and somehow she had no clue who Steph Curry was. I kinda doubt she would know who Durant was either. When my wife and I started dating six years ago, she learned a lot about the NBA. I had to remind her who Durant and Curry were multiple times, and I guarantee you she would have no clue who they were if we had never met.

Based on your own logic, I'm fairly certain that Lebron is the only person who would fit that litmus test of "would non-sports fans know who he is?." Does that mean Lebron is the only superstar in the NBA? For that matter, since 2000, how many players would have met that those requirements? Probably Lebron, Shaq and Kobe. I don't think the average non-sports fan would know Dirk, KG or Duncan. Maybe Wade because he's a little more of a celebrity, but I kind of think that's it.

So, no, I don't think that's a great definition for "superstar."

Chronz
12-30-2018, 08:22 PM
And, honestly, I've already devoted WAY too much of my own time and energy on this discussion, which I had no intention of really debating in the first place. I give you the benefit of the doubt, chronz, because I've always enjoyed discussing basketball with you and you've always struck me as an intelligent, thoughtful guy. But the level of hate for Harden in this forum drives me batshit crazy, and this thread is the epitome of that thoughtless hate.

The fact that this thread gets posted in the same ****ing month in which Harden is averaging an absurd 36/8/6/2 on .448/.407/.887 shooting percentages and when he's on a streak of nine straight 30+ point games (eight of them victories) and pretty much single-handedly keeping the Rockets afloat with Paul out shows you the intent of this poster and how easy it is to stir up anti-Harden discussion on this site.

The discussion on this site SHOULD be how incredible he's playing and how much he's doing to keep them in the playoff conversation despite injuries and the early struggles of the team. I've watched all but one of those games, and what he's done is unmatched by any Rocket I've had the pleasure of watching since Hakeem. It's truly remarkable, and it's kind of a bummer that the rest of PSD not only chooses not to acknowledge it, but would rather ignore it and bash the guy for his previous failures.

But if there was ever a pro-Harden thread on PSD that wasn't created by a Rockets fan, it might break the universe as we know it and rip the fabric of space and time.
If it were anyone but harden, we'd be singing his praises. But we've seen where this story inevitably heads. You're a machine, I won't get back to ur post but I will say this. You can only scoff at the criticism of harden's playoffs numbers if it also means you disregard how beastly Hakeem appears by the same criteria. You can expect superstars to underperform, the argument is that harden does so at levels which dq him from the conversation

buckalis
12-30-2018, 08:40 PM
And, honestly, I've already devoted WAY too much of my own time and energy on this discussion, ....

What "discussion"? Just put all these trolls in your ignore... don't be surprised if some are mods that are backing up these sick "subjects"...

Hawkeye15
12-30-2018, 09:28 PM
Yes but with a deserved rep of someone who can't get over the hump for different reasons. It depends what you want. He is way more Karl Malone than Kobe Bryant for example. But yes, he is a superstar. Just not one who can win wo far. That matters in the all timer ranking...

Heediot
12-30-2018, 10:25 PM
I disagree with that. I think he's elite at both. His ability to draw fouls and make most of the way the game is played should be commended but it's just frustrating because it's a reflection of what's the wrong with the game today. But if we look at it for what it is, he's an elite player by every sense of the word.

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He's a superstar, I just don't think he's unstoppable in the post-season. I think his mate Paul can get his more effectively thus far in te playoffs, not sure about from now on. Cp's just gets injured too much. KL is more effective in getting his post April as well. Harden game caters more to the regular season IMO, his percentages take a dip in the post season. I think Curry and Durant are less effective (when not playing together) in the post season too FWIW. I guess I have high standards, but I expect greatness to shine in the post-season.

ewing
12-30-2018, 10:37 PM
More like Stupid Star


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Scoots
12-30-2018, 10:51 PM
I think probably as many people know who James Harden is as who know Durant or Curry. A few months back, I was having a conversation with my mother about something, and somehow she had no clue who Steph Curry was. I kinda doubt she would know who Durant was either. When my wife and I started dating six years ago, she learned a lot about the NBA. I had to remind her who Durant and Curry were multiple times, and I guarantee you she would have no clue who they were if we had never met.

Based on your own logic, I'm fairly certain that Lebron is the only person who would fit that litmus test of "would non-sports fans know who he is?." Does that mean Lebron is the only superstar in the NBA? For that matter, since 2000, how many players would have met that those requirements? Probably Lebron, Shaq and Kobe. I don't think the average non-sports fan would know Dirk, KG or Duncan. Maybe Wade because he's a little more of a celebrity, but I kind of think that's it.

So, no, I don't think that's a great definition for "superstar."

I think Curry probably makes it based on marketing numbers, but the only clear cut superstar in the NBA is LeBron.

Scoots
12-30-2018, 10:52 PM
Harden does himself no favors politicking for the MVP year after year. It turns some people off.

mightybosstone
12-31-2018, 12:09 AM
I think Curry probably makes it based on marketing numbers, but the only clear cut superstar in the NBA is LeBron.

I see Harden in roughly the same amount of commercials as I see Curry in, if not more. I think you're overrating Curry's marketing impact on the average person. Also, you have to factor in that the commercials those guys are typically in are playing during programming the average sports fan is watching. When you're watching some random Food Network show, how often do you think Harden or Curry are popping up during commercial breaks?

Jamiecballer
12-31-2018, 12:11 AM
It's not about being intellectually superior, chief. It's about common ****ing sense. The very purpose of the thread is ignorant. Because if the only way to define "superstar" is "an athlete who takes it to the next level in the playoffs," then 90-95 percent of all Hall of Famers would likely not be superstars. MOST players see a dropoff in production and efficiency in the playoffs. Harden is not alone in that regard. And, historically, there are guys who have seen a far greater dropoff than him. Do we eliminate the Karl Malones and Gary Paytons from the definition of "superstar" solely because their postseason production was far lesser than their regular season production?

Also, forget the dropoff for a second. Just look at Harden's numbers over the last couple of years. The last two years, he essentially averaged 29/7/5/2 in the playoffs with an average to above average scoring efficiency, a 23-25 PER, a .160 WS/48 and an 8 BPM. How many players in the history of the game would be capable of that level of production in the playoffs? 20-30? But because we have individual moments we can point to where he failed and his production was a substantial decline from his regular season numbers, fans deem him this colossal failure.

Am I trying to suggest Harden doesn't deserve a reputation as a playoff choker? No. He has not played well enough in the postseason to kick that label, and those few moments that stand out (the Spurs series and the 12 turnover game) warrant that moniker. But the idea that he's completely useless in the playoffs and that a team can't win with him as its best player is completely absurd. Put him on the Warriors and surround him with that level of talent and see how many titles he would have won.


In many ways, yes, I would. The Max Kellermans, Stephen A. Smiths and Skip Baylesses of the world are the worst kind of trolls. Their surface level analysis requires no real thought or research, and their opinions are constantly flipping without any real justification. Kellerman is the perfect example. Look at his take on the Rockets last season; he was singing their praises all season long and was all over the "Rockets can beat the Warriors" bandwagon. Then somewhere between last year and this year, suddenly the Rockets are trash and Harden is no longer this star player he believed him to be last year. What changed?


That's your opinion, and you're entitled to it. But you're starting to fall into that category of posters who only ***** about the game and rarely ever have anything positive to say. If you hate the NBA so much and you think the game and its players are trash, why are you posting on an internet sports forum dedicated to the discussion of it? What purpose does that serve, and wouldn't you rather devote that time to something you ACTUALLY give a **** about?

I agree that we could all make better use of our time than posting here, but the difference between you and I is I'm actually still passionate about it. Whether the Rockets are great or the Rockets are trash, I'll still care about the team and the game. I've posted less and less over the last couple of years, and that's probably going to continue once my son is born, but my love of the Rockets and for the NBA isn't going anywhere. Yours clearly left you some time ago, so why be so angry and bitter about it? Why not just move on?

Edit: Fixing Harden's numbers and eliminating apostrophesHey man. If you are going to call out Kellerman for thinking the Rockets were legit last year and changing his mind after your teams offseason then you have to call out a large percentage of NBA basketball fans. Most people thought the Rockets had really ****ed up a great setup. Not sure why you are mystified

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Vee-Rex
12-31-2018, 12:17 AM
James Harden is as much of a superstar as Justin Bieber is the king of pop.

OF COURSE HE IS

mightybosstone
12-31-2018, 12:19 AM
Harden does himself no favors politicking for the MVP year after year. It turns some people off.

:confused: Are you talking about a few days ago when Harden was LITERALLY asked about it and responded accordingly? Here's a link to the postgame interview you're probably referring to: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txlfN70tSWs

The question was "Now, the way you guys are playing, do you think you bear a conversation as far as repeating as MVP at this point?" The dude just got done hanging 45 on the Celtics for his eighth straight game of 30+ points and their eighth win in nine games, he's in the locker room and someone asks him whether he should be in the MVP conversation. What should he say? "Nah. Give it to Giannis or AD this year." Hell no.

Scoots
12-31-2018, 12:44 AM
I see Harden in roughly the same amount of commercials as I see Curry in, if not more. I think you're overrating Curry's marketing impact on the average person. Also, you have to factor in that the commercials those guys are typically in are playing during programming the average sports fan is watching. When you're watching some random Food Network show, how often do you think Harden or Curry are popping up during commercial breaks?

I don't watch TV, I was relying more on what I've seen in stories on marketing news sites. Curry's merch sells near the top of the NBA and his wife has a TV show. But, like I said, the only clear superstar in the NBA right now is LeBron.

Giannis94
12-31-2018, 10:38 AM
If Harden isn't a superstar, Curry isn't either. Curry is actually at the point where I feel he's overrated

FlashBolt
12-31-2018, 04:48 PM
In terms of global impact, LeBron's probably the only guy capable of getting recognition worldwide as a current NBA player.

In terms of marketability, I don't think, outside of LeBron, there is anyone more marketable than Curry is right now.

In terms of who's better? Give me Curry.

Harden is great but I think the way he gets his calls really turn fans off and that to me is a negative when it comes to appreciating him as a player. Whether fair or unfair, I respect Harden's basketball skillset but I immediately switch the channel when the refs start giving him back-to-back-to-back foul calls.

Hawkeye15
12-31-2018, 05:40 PM
In terms of global impact, LeBron's probably the only guy capable of getting recognition worldwide as a current NBA player.

In terms of marketability, I don't think, outside of LeBron, there is anyone more marketable than Curry is right now.

In terms of who's better? Give me Curry.

Harden is great but I think the way he gets his calls really turn fans off and that to me is a negative when it comes to appreciating him as a player. Whether fair or unfair, I respect Harden's basketball skillset but I immediately switch the channel when the refs start giving him back-to-back-to-back foul calls.

yep. Literally his first flop, and I have to change it before I start getting angry.

Scoots
12-31-2018, 11:09 PM
In terms of global impact, LeBron's probably the only guy capable of getting recognition worldwide as a current NBA player.

In terms of marketability, I don't think, outside of LeBron, there is anyone more marketable than Curry is right now.

In terms of who's better? Give me Curry.

Harden is great but I think the way he gets his calls really turn fans off and that to me is a negative when it comes to appreciating him as a player. Whether fair or unfair, I respect Harden's basketball skillset but I immediately switch the channel when the refs start giving him back-to-back-to-back foul calls.

This.

Saddletramp
01-01-2019, 02:55 AM
Jesus Christ you guys blow a few calls per game out of proportion. And youíre making it sound like heís legit falling down without getting touched. For ****sí sake get over yourselves.

nastynice
01-01-2019, 04:06 AM
lol, obviously yes he is a superstar. Offensively this man's on court game is on par with kobe and Wade. Harden is certified legit, period.

Almost sounds like a hater thread.

cmellofan15
01-01-2019, 12:47 PM
Superstar definition always changes when you don't like someone. I mean, yeah he's won MVP, could have had another the year before and is working on one this year...yeah he's doing things that only Kobe and Jordan have done scoring wise in the last 30 years...

but how many shows does he have? Does he even have a music label? How many people do you see wearing Harden jerseys on 2k MyPark? LMAO

LA_Raiders
01-01-2019, 01:21 PM
Not sure, outside of 1 MVP, he hasnít won ****. His O is great, but now a days anybody can score 40 on any given day. His defense is atrocious and his flopping doesnít help.

papipapsmanny
01-01-2019, 02:21 PM
I'm no Rockets fan... but he is top 5 player in the league without a doubt. The odd thing is, the NBA seems to have marketed current players poorly compared to years past. Or they just put all their eggs in the Lebron basket.

Think about TNT, everyone already knows Shaq and Barkley... even before they were broadcasters. Even Webber to an extent.

Think about how much better or easier it was the market the personalities. Jordan, Rodman, Barkley, even Ewing has a Big presence.

Hakeem, the dream was a brand name before he was even in the NBA. I think its harder to market now since the league seems so much less competitive

FlashBolt
01-01-2019, 03:24 PM
Jesus Christ you guys blow a few calls per game out of proportion. And youíre making it sound like heís legit falling down without getting touched. For ****sí sake get over yourselves.

Fans of every team feel that way. You're in the minority, pal. And it's because you're a Rockets fan.

Heediot
01-01-2019, 04:09 PM
I'm no Rockets fan... but he is top 5 player in the league without a doubt. The odd thing is, the NBA seems to have marketed current players poorly compared to years past. Or they just put all their eggs in the Lebron basket.

Think about TNT, everyone already knows Shaq and Barkley... even before they were broadcasters. Even Webber to an extent.

Think about how much better or easier it was the market the personalities. Jordan, Rodman, Barkley, even Ewing has a Big presence.

Hakeem, the dream was a brand name before he was even in the NBA. I think its harder to market now since the league seems so much less competitive

The nick names are simplistic and crappier and almost evryone plays the same way (shoot the 3 and drive to the hole). Nicknames in the past were creative, the worm, grandmama, the round mound of rebound, the dream, mailman, white chocolate, black mamba etc.. now you have d12, cp13, pg13, first name initial and first syllable of last name lmao. you could market guys based on personality, playing styles and nicknames more back then.

mightybosstone
01-01-2019, 04:25 PM
Fans of every team feel that way. You're in the minority, pal. And it's because you're a Rockets fan.

Of course they feel that way. Because you're not SUPPOSED to like players from opposing teams, especially the really good ones who put up 30-40 points on you every night and piss you off because they get calls. So fans take the 2-3 plays a night that they deem as ******** and blow those plays out of proportion while ignoring the other 20+ amazing plays that player makes.

It's easy to hate Harden because he gets those 2-3 calls every night, doesn't play great defense and has those 3-4 poor postseason moments fans can point to. They can cling to those few flaws as justification to hate the guy, and it gives them an excuse to completely ignore all of the other incredible things he does as a basketball player.

Saddletramp
01-01-2019, 05:27 PM
Fans of every team feel that way. You're in the minority, pal. And it's because you're a Rockets fan.

The world is filled with so much butthurt whining. You said you turn it off after you see back to back to back calls given to him by the refs. Thatís just simply untrue. Repeating false statements doesnít make them true.



Damn you, now Iím starting to sound like a fake news/lame stream media/Trump supporting prick.

brandt
01-01-2019, 06:24 PM
Only cuz the standards have dwindled in this era
You mean like Scoring 40 plus points in 4 straight games, and one of those being a tripple double? Yeah, I know what ya mean! Lol!!!

Saddletramp
01-01-2019, 06:43 PM
Not sure, outside of 1 MVP, he hasnít won ****. His O is great, but now a days anybody can score 40 on any given day. His defense is atrocious and his flopping doesnít help.

He just scored 35 points and had at least 5 assists in 8 straight games. You know who was the last person to do that?







Nobody. Ever. Oscar Robertson did it in 7 straight games twice. And that was 50+ years ago when it was a different game. There was 20 more possessions a game back then and the league was way whiter.

brandt
01-01-2019, 06:48 PM
Yes Harden is a super star! Four straight games with 40 plus points, and one of those was a tripple double. I donít care if he does flop, heís still a superstar. And for everyone who says they donít like him because he flops? He drives to the basket and gets attacked, but people get mad that he gets the call. He may throw his head back and flop occasionally, but not as much as some do or did. And guys are all over him so what else are the refs supposed to do?

nastynice
01-01-2019, 07:25 PM
As much as I appreciate these harden stats, seriously wtf, just watch the guy play a few games. How many nights in a year is he not clearly the best scorer on the court? I can probably count on my hands.

When he's on, he's flat out unguardable.

FlashBolt
01-02-2019, 07:29 AM
The world is filled with so much butthurt whining. You said you turn it off after you see back to back to back calls given to him by the refs. Thatís just simply untrue. Repeating false statements doesnít make them true.



Damn you, now Iím starting to sound like a fake news/lame stream media/Trump supporting prick.

Bringing up Trump because you're an emotional baby who only wants to hear what he believes is pretty much a revealing trait of your personality. Kindly, grow up. Fake news? Butthurt? Uhh, you're the one who is butthurt and whining.. read the thread. I have never whined. Just said I dislike watching his game when refs decide to take over.

Scoots
01-02-2019, 11:53 AM
Of course they feel that way. Because you're not SUPPOSED to like players from opposing teams, especially the really good ones who put up 30-40 points on you every night and piss you off because they get calls. So fans take the 2-3 plays a night that they deem as ******** and blow those plays out of proportion while ignoring the other 20+ amazing plays that player makes.

It's easy to hate Harden because he gets those 2-3 calls every night, doesn't play great defense and has those 3-4 poor postseason moments fans can point to. They can cling to those few flaws as justification to hate the guy, and it gives them an excuse to completely ignore all of the other incredible things he does as a basketball player.

Right, and opposing players playing in a real game with their hands behind their backs is just fans hating on a player.

Scoots
01-02-2019, 12:02 PM
Is anybody questioning if Harden has elite skills? I don't think so.

That said, he does annoy fans and opponents for his well developed talents to take advantage of the rules and their enforcement. Does anybody actually not agree with that? I wouldn't think so, but maybe some Rockets fans really don't see it.

"Superstar" was defined, as far as I know in 1981 by Sherwin Rosen in The American Economic Review. The idea was that a player was so good and so appreciated by fans that they transcend almost all other athletes in their field. They draw more money to them than the vast majority of other players. Bird and Magic, MJ, LeBron. It's the top of the top. We have a tendency to muddy words over time, but that doesn't make it right. I'm so tired of hearing it's "awesome" when my credit card works when I'm checking out at the grocery store ... it's not "awesome" it's pedestrian at best.

The easiest measure is jersey sales. The first link Google came up with had Harden 9th, between Embiid and Simmons. They are very good players, they are stars, they are not super stars.

Hawkeye15
01-02-2019, 12:07 PM
Jesus Christ you guys blow a few calls per game out of proportion. And youíre making it sound like heís legit falling down without getting touched. For ****sí sake get over yourselves.

the dude has more FT's made than FG's. He is the biggest flopper, and advantage taker of the rules in the history of the league. yes, his style turns off almost every fan. No matter how great he is, his theatrics define him. Get the **** over it dude, seriously. I simply choose not to watch him much, because it's disgusting. You can support him, but also need to learn to deal with being a fan of his obviously.

Hawkeye15
01-02-2019, 12:09 PM
As much as I appreciate these harden stats, seriously wtf, just watch the guy play a few games. How many nights in a year is he not clearly the best scorer on the court? I can probably count on my hands.

When he's on, he's flat out unguardable.

goes back to my original post. The dude is a fantastic player, but has a style most hate. He also chokes come playoff time, something we tend to look down upon on "superstar" players.

In reality, this all comes down to how do you define a superstar? To me, there are only a few in sports at any given time. The NBA has 1. It aint James Harden...

Tg11
01-02-2019, 01:01 PM
As much as I appreciate these harden stats, seriously wtf, just watch the guy play a few games. How many nights in a year is he not clearly the best scorer on the court? I can probably count on my hands.

When he's on, he's flat out unguardable.

Yeah he is but talk to me when Harden wins a title

Hawkeye15
01-02-2019, 01:13 PM
Yeah he is but talk to me when Harden wins a title

he doesn't need to win a title, he just has to stop flaming out while losing.

Chronz
01-02-2019, 02:06 PM
I'm no Rockets fan... but he is top 5 player in the league without a doubt. The odd thing is, the NBA seems to have marketed current players poorly compared to years past. Or they just put all their eggs in the Lebron basket.

Think about TNT, everyone already knows Shaq and Barkley... even before they were broadcasters. Even Webber to an extent.

Think about how much better or easier it was the market the personalities. Jordan, Rodman, Barkley, even Ewing has a Big presence.

Hakeem, the dream was a brand name before he was even in the NBA. I think its harder to market now since the league seems so much less competitive

When did hakeem become the dream?

Chronz
01-02-2019, 02:07 PM
You mean like Scoring 40 plus points in 4 straight games, and one of those being a tripple double? Yeah, I know what ya mean! Lol!!!

If you did, you wouldn't have used archaic numbers. How long have you been alive? How long have you been alone.....

mightybosstone
01-02-2019, 02:10 PM
Right, and opposing players playing in a real game with their hands behind their backs is just fans hating on a player.

:laugh: Really, Scoots? That's their choice, dude. And it's more of an indictment on the officials and the officiating in that one particular game than it is an indictment on Harden, specifically. How many examples are there of Harden being disrespected by players in the media? Find me some. Because all I ever hear from other athletes is respect for his game.

mightybosstone
01-02-2019, 02:18 PM
If you did, you wouldn't have used archaic numbers. How long have you been alive? How long have you been alone.....

Dude, in his last 10 games, Harden has averaged 40.8 points, 8.9 assists, 6.8 rebounds and 2.2 steals per game with a 64.4% TS%. I don't care what era you play in and what stats you do or don't valueóthat's insane. If it was so easy to accomplish, why are other players not boasting such absurd numbers?

valade16
01-02-2019, 02:21 PM
the dude has more FT's made than FG's. He is the biggest flopper, and advantage taker of the rules in the history of the league. yes, his style turns off almost every fan. No matter how great he is, his theatrics define him. Get the **** over it dude, seriously. I simply choose not to watch him much, because it's disgusting. You can support him, but also need to learn to deal with being a fan of his obviously.

The main problem with this strategy isn't that it makes opposing teams' fans mad, it's that in the playoffs it's not nearly as effective.

Tg11
01-02-2019, 02:24 PM
Yeah Harden is a superstar but on a team that has been underperforming this season

mightybosstone
01-02-2019, 02:39 PM
Yeah Harden is a superstar but on a team that has been underperforming this season

Have you been living under a rock for the last month? Harden's the reason they've come out of the slump and climbed all the way from 13th in the West to 4th. Since Paul got hurt, they've won five straightóall against teams fighting to make the playoffs. Houston was 10-11 after November, and the Rockets went 11-4 in December. All Harden did during that time was average 36/8/6/2 on 44.6/41.3/87.1 shooting percentages.

And the whole "underperforming" argument is totally moot considering so many teams are underperforming right now, including the two teams everyone said were the two best in the league entering the season: Golden State and Boston. Would you so bold as to say "Yeah, Durant and Curry are superstars, but on a team that has been underperforming this season?" I think not.

Tg11
01-02-2019, 02:43 PM
Well Houston was underperforming before but Houston are on a winning streak but we'll see how long that lasts once CP3 comes back and defensively they haven't been the same since Ariza and Mbah Moute left but they are finding their way back defensively

mightybosstone
01-02-2019, 02:43 PM
the dude has more FT's made than FG's. He is the biggest flopper, and advantage taker of the rules in the history of the league. yes, his style turns off almost every fan. No matter how great he is, his theatrics define him. Get the **** over it dude, seriously. I simply choose not to watch him much, because it's disgusting. You can support him, but also need to learn to deal with being a fan of his obviously.

It's an internet sports forum, dude. Rockets fans aren't going to just "deal with it." It's absurd that in the middle of this historic run that he's on, only a few months removed from winning MVP and helping his team get one game away from the Finals, there's a thread titled "Is James Harden a superstar?" The fact that so many people have no idea why Rockets fans get so defensive over this shows you how hard-headed most fans are and how little attention they pay to anything remotely positive Harden does on the court.

mightybosstone
01-02-2019, 02:45 PM
Well Houston was underperforming before but Houston are on a winning streak but we'll see how long that lasts once CP3 comes back and defensively they haven't been the same since Ariza and Mbah Moute left but they are finding their way back defensively

Who gives a damn? Is the thread titled "Is Houston a good basketball team?" No. It's titled "Is James Harden a superstar?" What you're talking about has almost no bearing whatsoever on the topic at hand.

valade16
01-02-2019, 02:46 PM
Have you been living under a rock for the last month? Harden's the reason they've come out of the slump and climbed all the way from 13th in the West to 4th. Since Paul got hurt, they've won five straightóall against teams fighting to make the playoffs. Houston was 10-11 after November, and the Rockets went 11-4 in December. All Harden did during that time was average 36/8/6/2 on 44.6/41.3/87.1 shooting percentages.

And the whole "underperforming" argument is totally moot considering so many teams are underperforming right now, including the two teams everyone said were the two best in the league entering the season: Golden State and Boston. Would you so bold as to say "Yeah, Durant and Curry are superstars, but on a team that has been underperforming this season?" I think not.

Yeah the Rockets may have been under performing to start the year, but they definitely aren't under performing now. Even with their slow start, they have a legitimate shot at the #1 seed.

Tg11
01-02-2019, 02:48 PM
Who gives a damn? Is the thread titled "Is Houston a good basketball team?" No. It's titled "Is James Harden a superstar?" What you're talking about has almost no bearing whatsoever on the topic at hand.

Yes he is a superstar but on a team that has been average for the most part this season

Rivera
01-02-2019, 03:08 PM
Harden is annoying, Harden chokes in the playoffs but he is a superstar. I cant think as to why he wouldnt be a superstar. Household name, MVP, big time player, crazy stats, some playoff success. Harden is a superstar

in the playoffs, he gets gassed quicker because of his regular season load, he doesnt get the calls he gets in the regular season, and teams go after him on defense. he chokes in the playoffs.

both can be true. dude is a stud, when hes on hes really fun to watch and I wish he was on my team. Hes also a flopper who sometimes is hard to watch because of the insane calls he gets and he chokes in the playoffs

both can be true

mightybosstone
01-02-2019, 03:09 PM
Yes he is a superstar but on a team that has been average for the most part this season

Again, who cares? It's a pointless statement. It's like saying "Lebron James is a superstar, but he's injured right now." It doesn't matter. Whether Houston struggled earlier in the season has literally nothing to do with whether or not he's a superstar, especially considering they've climbed all the way to 4th in the West and are only 3.5 back of 1st in the West.

mightybosstone
01-02-2019, 03:10 PM
Harden is annoying, Harden chokes in the playoffs but he is a superstar. I cant think as to why he wouldnt be a superstar. Household name, MVP, big time player, crazy stats, some playoff success. Harden is a superstar

in the playoffs, he gets gassed quicker because of his regular season load, he doesnt get the calls he gets in the regular season, and teams go after him on defense. he chokes in the playoffs.

both can be true. dude is a stud, when hes on hes really fun to watch and I wish he was on my team. Hes also a flopper who sometimes is hard to watch because of the insane calls he gets and he chokes in the playoffs

both can be true

:nod:

This guy gets it.

valade16
01-02-2019, 03:14 PM
Again, who cares? It's a pointless statement. It's like saying "Lebron James is a superstar, but he's injured right now." It doesn't matter. Whether Houston struggled earlier in the season has literally nothing to do with whether or not he's a superstar, especially considering they've climbed all the way to 4th in the West and are only 3.5 back of 1st in the West.

And that Harden playing like a superstar is the main reason why they've climbed up to 4th in the West.

Hawkeye15
01-02-2019, 03:37 PM
The main problem with this strategy isn't that it makes opposing teams' fans mad, it's that in the playoffs it's not nearly as effective.

then adapt. He has the skillset to do so.

Hawkeye15
01-02-2019, 03:39 PM
It's an internet sports forum, dude. Rockets fans aren't going to just "deal with it." It's absurd that in the middle of this historic run that he's on, only a few months removed from winning MVP and helping his team get one game away from the Finals, there's a thread titled "Is James Harden a superstar?" The fact that so many people have no idea why Rockets fans get so defensive over this shows you how hard-headed most fans are and how little attention they pay to anything remotely positive Harden does on the court.

well, you know that players are unfortunately defined in the playoffs once they get to a certain stature. I am not a fan of that really, but it's just the way it is. He NEEDS to overcome his struggles in the playoffs. Or this question will come up regardless of how many MVP's he wins.

As for his style, yes man, fans hate it. Even though most admit how unstoppable he can be. I think most Rox fans honestly just shy away from Harden related discussions at this point, because they know what is coming..

Chronz
01-02-2019, 03:55 PM
Dude, in his last 10 games, Harden has averaged 40.8 points, 8.9 assists, 6.8 rebounds and 2.2 steals per game with a 64.4% TS%. I don't care what era you play in and what stats you do or don't valueóthat's insane. If it was so easy to accomplish, why are other players not boasting such absurd numbers?
I do care about the era tho. It would be easy for them to accomplish in his situation especially when his calling card is only regular season play.

Saddletramp
01-02-2019, 05:29 PM
Bringing up Trump because you're an emotional baby who only wants to hear what he believes is pretty much a revealing trait of your personality. Kindly, grow up.

You lie about seeing three straight bail outs from the refs when he might get three all game. And to make it seem like itís every game? Kindly, get the **** over yourself.


Fake news? Butthurt? Uhh, you're the one who is butthurt and whining.. read the thread. I have never whined. Just said I dislike watching his game when refs decide to take over.

You never whined? What is basically saying ďI turn the game off when heís gifted callsĒ (that are actually 90% legit)? You seem like the kind of guy who would take the ball and go home when he got his *** kicked and told his parents he got bullied.

Saddletramp
01-02-2019, 05:31 PM
Right, and opposing players playing in a real game with their hands behind their backs is just fans hating on a player.

To me, that says more about not being tempted to reach out then it does that theyíre making a commentary on the refs or Harden. I wouldnít be surprised if their coach told them to do that.

Hawkeye15
01-02-2019, 05:35 PM
To me, that says more about not being tempted to reach out then it does that theyíre making a commentary on the refs or Harden. I wouldnít be surprised if their coach told them to do that.

I think they were clearly sending a message to the refs. Or attempting to anyways..

mightybosstone
01-02-2019, 06:09 PM
I do care about the era tho. It would be easy for them to accomplish in his situation especially when his calling card is only regular season play.

Then why don't they? There have been a ton of great players in the last 10-15 years playing with mediocre supporting casts in the era of 3-point dominance who've had the green light to do whatever they want offensively who weren't capable of the kind of production Harden is providing this season.

I'd also like to note that Harden isn't just putting up absurd numbers, but he's doing it while his team is winning and beating good teamsóthe Rockets have the best record against .500+ teams in the league. Usually when guys dominate so much of the offensive production of a team like this, those teams struggle to win because they can't be that productive, efficient and play team-friendly basketball. He's accomplishing all three.

Scoots
01-02-2019, 06:34 PM
:laugh: Really, Scoots? That's their choice, dude. And it's more of an indictment on the officials and the officiating in that one particular game than it is an indictment on Harden, specifically. How many examples are there of Harden being disrespected by players in the media? Find me some. Because all I ever hear from other athletes is respect for his game.

Did I say it wasn't their choice? Your point was that fans are not supposed to like players from opposing teams, my point is that it's not just because they are on another team and it's not just fans. It's because Harden absolutely takes a special level of advantage of the rules.

I started by saying he's elite, but "superstar" has to do with popularity and Harden's popularity is hurt by the way he plays the game.

Scoots
01-02-2019, 06:36 PM
To me, that says more about not being tempted to reach out then it does that theyíre making a commentary on the refs or Harden. I wouldnít be surprised if their coach told them to do that.

Read what the players said ... it's about the refs and Harden.

mightybosstone
01-02-2019, 07:05 PM
Did I say it wasn't their choice? Your point was that fans are not supposed to like players from opposing teams, my point is that it's not just because they are on another team and it's not just fans. It's because Harden absolutely takes a special level of advantage of the rules.

I started by saying he's elite, but "superstar" has to do with popularity and Harden's popularity is hurt by the way he plays the game.

I think you're placing way too much emphasis on popularity and likability. Duncan was not popular. Kobe wasn't especially likable. Hell, Lebron and Durant were completely hated by the vast majority of fans after they left their initial teams for greener pastures. Likability and popularity should not impact whether or not someone is considered a "superstar," IMO.

Also, I'd counter with the fact that Harden signed a $200 million deal with Adidas in 2016 and that he's consistently ranked among the top 5 NBA players in terms of endorsement money every year. So clearly major corporations find him popular enough to trust him with tens of millions of endorsement dollars year in and year out. As for the players themselves, I recall players naming Harden as the players' MVP in 2015 over Curry. And I could point to any number of articles of players praising his play on the court over the years if you'd like me to.

Bottom line, Harden's game and production speaks for itself. You have to truly to some mental gymnastics to try and justify him not being a superstar in the NBA.

Saddletramp
01-02-2019, 08:03 PM
Read what the players said ... it's about the refs and Harden.

Well, you didnít add that they have been quoted as saying thatís the reason. Havenít seen the quotes so I just went off of what it looks like. And honestly, if you have your hand out in a players natural* shooting motion, itís on you if he tries to shoot and comes in contact with it. The players should stop crying and start remembering the rules.


*Iíve seen where guys get a defender up but the defender wouldnít touch the offensive player if the offensive player didnít unnaturally lunge forward and yes, thatís BS. Regardless of who does that move, it should be an offensive foul or no call (Iíve seen no calls on that but not as many offensive fouls). But when your hand is out and the player tries to naturally shoot? Learn the rules and play better.

Chronz
01-02-2019, 08:12 PM
Then why don't they? There have been a ton of great players in the last 10-15 years playing with mediocre supporting casts in the era of 3-point dominance who've had the green light to do whatever they want offensively who weren't capable of the kind of production Harden is providing this season.

I'd also like to note that Harden isn't just putting up absurd numbers, but he's doing it while his team is winning and beating good teamsóthe Rockets have the best record against .500+ teams in the league. Usually when guys dominate so much of the offensive production of a team like this, those teams struggle to win because they can't be that productive, efficient and play team-friendly basketball. He's accomplishing all three.

Theres more to it than just the 3s (and even then it's never been this free flowing chuckfest) but how shooters are protected compared to even a few years ago. You add in a tailor made offense and absolutely no defensive impact to focus on and you could replicate it with superior players like young wade and peak wade. Others don't need to put up irrelevant rs production and never **** the bed as often as harden has.

This is peak harden, let's see if it finally translates when it matters most

mightybosstone
01-02-2019, 09:07 PM
Theres more to it than just the 3s (and even then it's never been this free flowing chuckfest) but how shooters are protected compared to even a few years ago. You add in a tailor made offense and absolutely no defensive impact to focus on and you could replicate it with superior players like young wade and peak wade. Others don't need to put up irrelevant rs production and never **** the bed as often as harden has.

This is peak harden, let's see if it finally translates when it matters most

Wade is not remotely capable of this kind of production. You're talking about a career 29 percent 3-point shooter who never topped a 60 percent TS% or 8 assists per game at any point in his career and only topped a 40 percent AST% twice. Harden's numbers are better than those figures.

Also, Wade did have the keys to an offense like you're suggesting in 08-09. He took even more shots than Harden has this season (22.0 FGA to Harden's 21.8) and his USG% was only 2 percent lower than Harden's (36.2 vs. 38.4). But that season was still statistically inferior to Harden's in most statistical categories, and that Heat team finished only 43-39 and was knocked out in the first round against the Hawks.

I'd also like to point out how antiquated the "no defensive impact" argument against Harden is. If you think the guy has zero defensive impact, you're not watching him play. Period. But I'm not going to get into that discussion, because I've made that point a zillion times already on PSD, and I'm not in the mood to go down the "Harden plays no defense" argument again.

Scoots
01-02-2019, 11:16 PM
I think you're placing way too much emphasis on popularity and likability. Duncan was not popular. Kobe wasn't especially likable. Hell, Lebron and Durant were completely hated by the vast majority of fans after they left their initial teams for greener pastures. Likability and popularity should not impact whether or not someone is considered a "superstar," IMO.

Also, I'd counter with the fact that Harden signed a $200 million deal with Adidas in 2016 and that he's consistently ranked among the top 5 NBA players in terms of endorsement money every year. So clearly major corporations find him popular enough to trust him with tens of millions of endorsement dollars year in and year out. As for the players themselves, I recall players naming Harden as the players' MVP in 2015 over Curry. And I could point to any number of articles of players praising his play on the court over the years if you'd like me to.

Bottom line, Harden's game and production speaks for itself. You have to truly to some mental gymnastics to try and justify him not being a superstar in the NBA.

I didn't define the term, the original definition was about popularity, not skill.

Scoots
01-02-2019, 11:25 PM
Well, you didnít add that they have been quoted as saying thatís the reason. Havenít seen the quotes so I just went off of what it looks like. And honestly, if you have your hand out in a players natural* shooting motion, itís on you if he tries to shoot and comes in contact with it. The players should stop crying and start remembering the rules.


*Iíve seen where guys get a defender up but the defender wouldnít touch the offensive player if the offensive player didnít unnaturally lunge forward and yes, thatís BS. Regardless of who does that move, it should be an offensive foul or no call (Iíve seen no calls on that but not as many offensive fouls). But when your hand is out and the player tries to naturally shoot? Learn the rules and play better.

I think the way the contact is called is not the way it's written. If the defender is still or moving away from the offensive player and the offensive player creates contact it should be either a non-call or a call on the offensive player. Offensive players don't own space.

cmellofan15
01-02-2019, 11:32 PM
Can we talk about real superstars here like Jeremy Lin? I mean talk about a guy that can sell a jersey amirite

COOLbeans
01-03-2019, 12:21 AM
I think you're placing way too much emphasis on popularity and likability. Duncan was not popular. Kobe wasn't especially likable. Hell, Lebron and Durant were completely hated by the vast majority of fans after they left their initial teams for greener pastures. Likability and popularity should not impact whether or not someone is considered a "superstar," IMO.

Also, I'd counter with the fact that Harden signed a $200 million deal with Adidas in 2016 and that he's consistently ranked among the top 5 NBA players in terms of endorsement money every year. So clearly major corporations find him popular enough to trust him with tens of millions of endorsement dollars year in and year out. As for the players themselves, I recall players naming Harden as the players' MVP in 2015 over Curry. And I could point to any number of articles of players praising his play on the court over the years if you'd like me to.

Bottom line, Harden's game and production speaks for itself. You have to truly to some mental gymnastics to try and justify him not being a superstar in the NBA.


The players only like Harden cause he has a funky beard, goes to strip clubs and ****** a Kardashian. He also schools guys and is an amazing basketball player.

But in no way is he better than Steph Curry (nor had a better season in 2015) regardless of any player polls.

Looking forward to tomorrow

Tg11
01-03-2019, 07:57 AM
No way is Harden better than Curry...if you mean statistically right now of course he is but who is the better shooter let's be very honest? Curry is most definitely and it doesn't matter how many guys you throw in front of him or anywhere he is on the court if he manages to get his shot off...99.9% of the time it goes in. If teams scheme for Harden on defense he is still effective but not as effective. Not to mention all time head to head matchups Curry has proven he's better than Harden when it matters.

Harden yeah he's awesome in the regular season I'm not denying that but come playoff time when it really matters under real pressure Harden cannot get the job done. Curry in the regular season he's as good as he can be but in the playoffs he usually turns it on all the time no matter the opponent in a playoff series. Hell, Curry has more Finals wins and appearances than Harden combined.

Defensively, Curry is also better than Harden.

rhino17
01-03-2019, 01:08 PM
Lol at the idea that harden doesnít get the job done in the playoffs. Heís done everything except win a ring. Some thing lots of all time greats didnít do. And yes James is an all time great

Rivera
01-03-2019, 01:16 PM
Lol at the idea that harden doesnít get the job done in the playoffs. Heís done everything except win a ring. Some thing lots of all time greats didnít do. And yes James is an all time great

screw the hole rings thing. you do realize, in his career, Harden shoots 42% from the field and 32% from the 3 in the playoffs?

in his MVP year last year, he shot 41% and 30% from 3 in the playoffs last year


that isnt getting it done in the playoffs, and im not even talking yet about specific games and moments where Harden couldnt make any impact and continued to come up short

its not like hes beasting (like he does in the regular season) and then puts in almost the same performance and the Rockets lose cause they dont have enough talent. Its Harden who has costed his team a few playoff games

mightybosstone
01-03-2019, 01:21 PM
No way is Harden better than Curry...if you mean statistically right now of course he is but who is the better shooter let's be very honest? Curry is most definitely and it doesn't matter how many guys you throw in front of him or anywhere he is on the court if he manages to get his shot off...99.9% of the time it goes in. If teams scheme for Harden on defense he is still effective but not as effective. Not to mention all time head to head matchups Curry has proven he's better than Harden when it matters.

Harden yeah he's awesome in the regular season I'm not denying that but come playoff time when it really matters under real pressure Harden cannot get the job done. Curry in the regular season he's as good as he can be but in the playoffs he usually turns it on all the time no matter the opponent in a playoff series. Hell, Curry has more Finals wins and appearances than Harden combined.

Defensively, Curry is also better than Harden.

I'd disagree with pretty much all of this aside from Curry being a better shooter. Here are the facts:
1. Yes. Harden's numbers are better across the board aside from shooting.
2. Since when is shooting the only aspect of the game that matters? Harden is a superior playmaker and scorer, period. He's more dangerous driving to the basket, his penetration and pick and roll skills are more integral to the Rockets' offense than anything Curry does, and he's responsible for far more of the Rockets' offensive production than Curry is the Warriors.
3. The idea that 99.9% of the time Curry is hitting open looks is wildly inaccurate. I'm guessing percentages weren't your strong suit in grade school?
4. Curry hasn't exactly been a stud in the postseason. In three Finals wins, he has zero Finals MVPs. And he's had more than a few mediocre playoff series in his career. It's easy to mask that when you play on a team with three other Hall of Famers in their primes.
5. Curry is not a better defender. I've watched a lot of Rockets and Warriors games over the years, and I'd take Harden as a 1 on 1 defender and would definitely take him in a situation when he's switched on another player, particularly bigs. Harden's DBPM has also consistently been superior to Curry's the last few years, and while it's hardly a perfect stat to judge defensive prowess, I think it does say something that statistically the Rockets are a better team defensively when Harden is on the floor and the Warriors are a worse defensive team when Curry is on the floor.

mightybosstone
01-03-2019, 01:30 PM
The players only like Harden cause he has a funky beard, goes to strip clubs and ****** a Kardashian. He also schools guys and is an amazing basketball player.

But in no way is he better than Steph Curry (nor had a better season in 2015) regardless of any player polls.

Looking forward to tomorrow

Forget 2015, though. Because not even I think he was a better basketball player in 2015. But he's a better basketball player now and has been since Durant arrived in the Bay Area last season. And you can certainly argue that Durant's arrival has hindered Curry's productivity a bit, but his USG% has been essentially identical the last three seasons. Bottom line, Curry hasn't gotten better, but Harden has found another tier that is just frankly higher than Curry's right now.

I also look forward to tonight, but I don't feel good about this one. The Rockets are playing really well, but Gordon is recovering from a sore knee and Paul is out. They may be getting Ennis back, but I'm not sure if that's a good thing given how well House has played in his absence. If they play like they have the last two weeks and the Warriors play like they have in recent weeks, I like the Rockets' chances, but I wouldn't put money on them right now.

valade16
01-03-2019, 01:32 PM
I'd disagree with pretty much all of this aside from Curry being a better shooter. Here are the facts:
1. Yes. Harden's numbers are better across the board aside from shooting.
2. Since when is shooting the only aspect of the game that matters? Harden is a superior playmaker and scorer, period. He's more dangerous driving to the basket, his penetration and pick and roll skills are more integral to the Rockets' offense than anything Curry does, and he's responsible for far more of the Rockets' offensive production than Curry is the Warriors.
3. The idea that 99.9% of the time Curry is hitting open looks is wildly inaccurate. I'm guessing percentages weren't your strong suit in grade school?
4. Curry hasn't exactly been a stud in the postseason. In three Finals wins, he has zero Finals MVPs. And he's had more than a few mediocre playoff series in his career. It's easy to mask that when you play on a team with three other Hall of Famers in their primes.
5. Curry is not a better defender. I've watched a lot of Rockets and Warriors games over the years, and I'd take Harden as a 1 on 1 defender and would definitely take him in a situation when he's switched on another player, particularly bigs. Harden's DBPM has also consistently been superior to Curry's the last few years, and while it's hardly a perfect stat to judge defensive prowess, I think it does say something that statistically the Rockets are a better team defensively when Harden is on the floor and the Warriors are a worse defensive team when Curry is on the floor.

Essentially, the years when Curry was amazing before KD don't count.

mightybosstone
01-03-2019, 01:39 PM
Essentially, the years when Curry was amazing before KD don't count.

I'm not saying they don't. I'm saying that the historical conversation of Harden vs. Curry and the "who's better today" conversation of Harden vs. Curry are two different conversations. Historically, Curry is the better player with the superior accolades and postseason resume. But comparing the two players over the last two and a half years, I don't know how you can tell me Curry has been the superior player.

valade16
01-03-2019, 02:11 PM
I'm not saying they don't. I'm saying that the historical conversation of Harden vs. Curry and the "who's better today" conversation of Harden vs. Curry are two different conversations. Historically, Curry is the better player with the superior accolades and postseason resume. But comparing the two players over the last two and a half years, I don't know how you can tell me Curry has been the superior player.

Well this gets down to the nuance of better vs more impactful. There have been more impactful players in the regular season than LeBron the last few years, but most don't think they're actually better. They are just playing better because LeBron was coasting for stretches.

So here we have a guy who without KD posted unquestionably better numbers and had more impact and suddenly KD comes and his stats dip slightly despite him being in his prime and we want to attribute this not to KD arriving but to the idea that Steph somehow got worse? Doesn't pass the common sense test to me.

Every single bit of context shows that Curry is so vastly more important to the Warriors than KD and is the same player he was before KD anytime he sits. Look at this:

https://www.sfchronicle.com/warriors/article/How-Stephen-Curry-bolstered-his-MVP-resume-by-13426400.php

Since the start of 2014-15, Golden State is 26-23 without Curry.

It is riding a 21-game winning streak in games in which Curry plays and Durant sits.



I agree with you that James Harden has been the more impact-full player this regular season (and last as well), especially of late. But that doesn't necessarily make him better, especially when the reasoning that he has surpassed Curry is because Curry has gotten worse magically once KD arrived. If you think current Harden is better than 2015 Curry was, we can have that talk. But the idea that Curry is not that Curry anymore because KD arrived, I don't really buy it. Do I think he consistently plays at that level anymore? No, because thanks to KD he doesn't have to. He can coast (for lack of a better term). But when he is needed to be at that level, does he? I think he still hits that level.

mightybosstone
01-03-2019, 02:29 PM
Well this gets down to the nuance of better vs more impactful. There have been more impactful players in the regular season than LeBron the last few years, but most don't think they're actually better. They are just playing better because LeBron was coasting for stretches.

So here we have a guy who without KD posted unquestionably better numbers and had more impact and suddenly KD comes and his stats dip slightly despite him being in his prime and we want to attribute this not to KD arriving but to the idea that Steph somehow got worse? Doesn't pass the common sense test to me.

Every single bit of context shows that Curry is so vastly more important to the Warriors than KD and is the same player he was before KD anytime he sits. Look at this:

https://www.sfchronicle.com/warriors/article/How-Stephen-Curry-bolstered-his-MVP-resume-by-13426400.php

Since the start of 2014-15, Golden State is 26-23 without Curry.

It is riding a 21-game winning streak in games in which Curry plays and Durant sits.

I agree with you that James Harden has been the more impact-full player this regular season (and last as well), especially of late. But that doesn't necessarily make him better, especially when the reasoning that he has surpassed Curry is because Curry has gotten worse magically once KD arrived. If you think current Harden is better than 2015 Curry was, we can have that talk. But the idea that Curry is not that Curry anymore because KD arrived, I don't really buy it. Do I think he consistently plays at that level anymore? No, because thanks to KD he doesn't have to. He can coast (for lack of a better term). But when he is needed to be at that level, does he? I think he still hits that level.

But when you look at Curry's 2015-16 season, his numbers were just off-the-charts amazing. I think there's enough reason there to be skeptical that he'll ever replicate those numbers again in his career, especially given that he's about to be 31. There are few players in the history of the NBA who have ever had a season on that level.

So while it is certainly fair to suggest that Durant has hindered Curry's production a bit, isn't it also fair to think there's a chance that we'll never see 2015-16 Curry ever again? That he'll continue to post eye-popping numbers and be a top 5 player in the league but the other-worldly guy we saw that season was a one-time occurrence?

mightybosstone
01-03-2019, 02:30 PM
For anyone not convinced of Harden's superstardom, I just read a great piece from The Ringer that's definitely worth a read pointing about his crazy 3-point shooting numbers this season.

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2019/1/3/18166695/james-harden-3-pointer-archetype

valade16
01-03-2019, 02:36 PM
But when you look at Curry's 2015-16 season, his numbers were just off-the-charts amazing. I think there's enough reason there to be skeptical that he'll ever replicate those numbers again in his career, especially given that he's about to be 31. There are few players in the history of the NBA who have ever had a season on that level.

So while it is certainly fair to suggest that Durant has hindered Curry's production a bit, isn't it also fair to think there's a chance that we'll never see 2015-16 Curry ever again? That he'll continue to post eye-popping numbers and be a top 5 player in the league but the other-worldly guy we saw that season was a one-time occurrence?

Well we shall know next year when KD leaves if Curry is capable of those years anymore.

kyubi256
01-03-2019, 02:39 PM
The number of times he finished top 5 in the MVP shows he is clearly a superstar

cmellofan15
01-03-2019, 03:25 PM
As of the latest all star vote count, Harden trails D Rose. Derrick Rose is the real superstar here

mightybosstone
01-03-2019, 03:40 PM
As of the latest all star vote count, Harden trails D Rose. Derrick Rose is the real superstar here

I thought you were joking when I first saw this. Then I looked up the voting numbers. I'm at a total loss for how that's possible. But NBA fans do tend to live 10 years in the past. Maybe people forgot what year it was?

Chronz
01-03-2019, 04:14 PM
Wade is not remotely capable of this kind of production.

Lmfaoo, really now?




You're talking about a career 29 percent 3-point shooter who never topped a 60 percent TS% or 8 assists per game at any point in his career and only topped a 40 percent AST% twice. Harden's numbers are better than those figures.
Find me a single statistical barometer that agrees with your opinion. You're talking about a guy who has already produced superior numbers while being a superior 2way guy whose numbers and playoff acumen held up to scrutiny. Why would I care about ts% and assists numbers when they played in different eras and systems. Do you not remember what harden looked like before playing under the infamous dantoni, even harden thought he was crazy when he said he would unlock his playmaking capabilities. Imagine what a VASTLY more talented and athletic player would do given all his space and touches? He was a superior passer too, doubt he'd rack up the tos like harden.





Also, Wade did have the keys to an offense like you're suggesting in 08-09. He took even more shots than Harden has this season (22.0 FGA to Harden's 21.8) and his USG% was only 2 percent lower than Harden's (36.2 vs. 38.4). But that season was still statistically inferior to Harden's in most statistical categories, and that Heat team finished only 43-39 and was knocked out in the first round against the Hawks.
It was FAR from an offense like harden has played in. Not sure what point you're trying to make here but why would I care about fga given their usage?

Not seeing what makes harden statistically superior, PER is in favor of Wade's output despite your aforementioned advantage in usage( bad sign) . Both have identical rate of win shares. I'm sure WP would rank Wade higher, Idk **** about BPM but it too values wade's season higher. So when you consider the stats side with wade AND he logged more mpg/actually sustained his run (he's also had superior stretches btw) with the FACT that we already know hes a superior defender putting forth more energy on that end, is playoff proven(very key). All that with the fact that the game has become simpler for perimeter players, hell back then, strongside over loads were still a thing to harm spacing, that's extinct today. Wade in a strictly pnr, top of the key spam play would definitely lead the league in assists. ****, have you seen cp3s numbers without harden from last year? It was like he was back in his peak days for short bursts in that system. I remember a podcast where he openly gushed about not having to run floppy anymore. Really made me wonder if we built the clippers wrong by never truly building around 1 of our stars.




I'd also like to point out how antiquated the "no defensive impact" argument against Harden is. If you think the guy has zero defensive impact, you're not watching him play. Period. But I'm not going to get into that discussion, because I've made that point a zillion times already on PSD, and I'm not in the mood to go down the "Harden plays no defense" argument again.
I disagree, even when you were making that case it was a reach

Chronz
01-03-2019, 04:18 PM
You guys do know you're talking about a guy who's only dominant performance was against an imploding mavs squad right. Take out that 1 series, look at his playoff numbers. I won't hold failing at being a 6th man in the finals against him tho, the heat had to key in on someone they could realistically stop. He was the obvious choice per bosh

FlashBolt
01-03-2019, 04:36 PM
You lie about seeing three straight bail outs from the refs when he might get three all game. And to make it seem like itís every game? Kindly, get the **** over yourself.



You never whined? What is basically saying ďI turn the game off when heís gifted callsĒ (that are actually 90% legit)? You seem like the kind of guy who would take the ball and go home when he got his *** kicked and told his parents he got bullied.

What the hell does "get the F over myself" even mean? This has nothing to do with me... Use a better response if you're going to try and sound amusing.

Yeah, I turn the game off when he's gifted calls. Plenty of people here have said the same thing. Oh, sorry I don't force myself to watch a game I dislike watching. Maybe I should sit through an entire three hour game because Saddletramp told me so. Hey guys, don't switch the channel without approval from Saddletramp. Unless you pay for my cable bill or TV subscription, you shouldn't be offended that I dislike watching something. Whining is when I bring it up every thread. That's not what I do. You're just selective in what you want to read. And equating that to getting my *** kicked in basketball and telling my parents I got bullied is probably you regurgitating the same response you've likely used previously before. It doesn't even make sense. So anyone who dislikes watching Harden must have felt bullied after they got their *** kicked in basketball? Lmao, what are you even saying? Saddle, I don't tell you what you shouldn't like to watch. Mind your business. People simply dislike watching Harden and he's a running joke in social media for getting fouled. I don't need to explain myself to you. Go complain about Trump on another thread.

FlashBolt
01-03-2019, 04:38 PM
Lol at the idea that harden doesnít get the job done in the playoffs. Heís done everything except win a ring. Some thing lots of all time greats didnít do. And yes James is an all time great

It's not that he doesn't get the job done. No one expects him to win a championship, honestly. It's that he puts on some questionable performances and has yet to redeem himself. We're still waiting for his playoff moment. Losing to the Kawhi-less Spurs and playing as bad as he did is not a good look for someone who is constantly in the MVP race. If he's in the MVP race, he should be able to prove why in the playoffs. Again, still waiting..

FlashBolt
01-03-2019, 04:46 PM
Is anybody questioning if Harden has elite skills? I don't think so.

That said, he does annoy fans and opponents for his well developed talents to take advantage of the rules and their enforcement. Does anybody actually not agree with that? I wouldn't think so, but maybe some Rockets fans really don't see it.

"Superstar" was defined, as far as I know in 1981 by Sherwin Rosen in The American Economic Review. The idea was that a player was so good and so appreciated by fans that they transcend almost all other athletes in their field. They draw more money to them than the vast majority of other players. Bird and Magic, MJ, LeBron. It's the top of the top. We have a tendency to muddy words over time, but that doesn't make it right. I'm so tired of hearing it's "awesome" when my credit card works when I'm checking out at the grocery store ... it's not "awesome" it's pedestrian at best.

The easiest measure is jersey sales. The first link Google came up with had Harden 9th, between Embiid and Simmons. They are very good players, they are stars, they are not super stars.

It's funny that it's mainly Rockets fans who don't see it, though. Do you realize how ironic that is? I would understand if it was a Boston Celtics or Miami Heat fan saying the same but I really haven't seen many outsiders defend Harden getting all the calls that he does get. And it's also funny that they pretend that they are unbiased but the majority of us don't believe they are being unbiased. It's like a damn cult of Harden defenders at this point. I've already stated I don't even blame Harden for taking advantage of it but I do think it's annoying to watch, period. He should do whatever it takes but I don't find it appealing to watch at all. SaddleTramp calls it whining. Do I whine about it on game threads? It's a damn Harden thread so I'm going to speak about why I don't think Harden is regarded as a superstar and his reputation for flopping and getting FT's is a large reason as to why. The problem with it is superstar is being thrown around for any player who gets paid a max. They aren't synonymous. And as good as Harden is, you won't find him as a top five player in everyone's list. Guys like Curry, KD, LeBron have been top five on the list for many years quite unanimously. But hey, what do I know. I'm just the guy who whines about Harden in a thread about James Harden because I'm a Trump supporter who gets bullied after losing basketball games. Gee, Saddle. Anything else you missed?

mightybosstone
01-03-2019, 04:50 PM
Lmfaoo, really now?
Yes, really.


Find me a single statistical barometer that agrees with your opinion.
Ummm..... Isn't that kinda what I just did? If you'd like, I can pull up other stats, like WS, WS/48, BPM or VORP, all of which give Harden a pretty healthy statistical advantage. :shrug:


You're talking about a guy who has already produced superior numbers while being a superior 2way guy whose numbers and playoff acumen held up to scrutiny.
Except he didn't produce superior numbers. We've covered that already.


Why would I care about ts% and assists numbers when they played in different eras and systems.
If that's the case, why compare ANY statistical data? Seriously, you just asked me to produce stats for you that prove Harden is the superior player, then act as if comparing them statistically is completely pointless. Which is it, dude? You can't have your cake and eat it, too.


Do you not remember what harden looked like before playing under the infamous dantoni, even harden thought he was crazy when he said he would unlock his playmaking capabilities. Imagine what a VASTLY more talented and athletic player would do given all his space and touches? He was a superior passer too, doubt he'd rack up the tos like harden.
You're missing a pretty massive difference here: Wade is/was always an atrocious 3-point shooter. Harden is not. Also, Wade wasn't the pick and roll creator that Harden is, regardless of passing skills. That's what made Harden the perfect player for D'Antoni's system.


It was FAR from an offense like harden has played in. Not sure what point you're trying to make here but why would I care about fga given their usage?
My point is that the guy clearly had free reign to do whatever he wanted in that offense, and he didn't produce at the same level Harden did. Figured this was common sense...


Not seeing what makes harden statistically superior, PER is in favor of Wade's output despite your aforementioned advantage in usage( bad sign) . Both have identical rate of win shares.
PER? OK, Wade has the slight edge there, but Harden clearly dominates every other statistical category, especially WS, which you're clearly not reading correctly. Wade's best WS/48 season was .239 and the year in question (08-09), he boasted .232. Harden has topped .240 three times and is trending to easily passing it again this season.


I'm sure WP would rank Wade higher, Idk **** about BPM but it too values wade's season higher.
Mmm... They're essentially identical, and Harden has consistently posted superior BPM numbers. Wade topped a 10.0+ BPM that one season, but Harden is doing it for his third consecutive year.


So when you consider the stats side with wade AND he logged more mpg/actually sustained his run (he's also had superior stretches btw) with the FACT that we already know hes a superior defender putting forth more energy on that end, is playoff proven(very key). All that with the fact that the game has become simpler for perimeter players, hell back then, strongside over loads were still a thing to harm spacing, that's extinct today. Wade in a strictly pnr, top of the key spam play would definitely lead the league in assists. ****, have you seen cp3s numbers without harden from last year? It was like he was back in his peak days for short bursts in that system. I remember a podcast where he openly gushed about not having to run floppy anymore. Really made me wonder if we built the clippers wrong by never truly building around 1 of our stars.
Could Wade have posted similar numbers to Harden? It's not completely impossible, but I think you're seriously underrating the impact of 3-point shooting in this offense and how much Harden's ability to shoot an absurdly high volume of 3s is integral to everything the Rockets do. I'll defer to that Ringer article I posted that came out today as the perfect example of what I'm talking about.

But, bottom line, I don't like to play the hypothetical game. The eras they played in were not that absurdly different as you're suggesting. They were literally drafted six years apart. The game didn't change THAT MUCH in six year. The other thing you're not factoring in is how short Wade's peak was and how injuries killed his prime so quickly in the middle of that four-year run he had with Lebron. His peak lasted about seven years, or as long as Harden has been in Houston. So if James just keeps playing the way he's playing, he'll easily surpass that within a couple of seasons.


I disagree, even when you were making that case it was a reach
Then we can agree to disagree. But I'll go ahead and take my own opinion as someone who watches most Rockets games every season over someone who's admitted he's watched all of one whole NBA game this year.


You guys do know you're talking about a guy who's only dominant performance was against an imploding mavs squad right. Take out that 1 series, look at his playoff numbers. I won't hold failing at being a 6th man in the finals against him tho, the heat had to key in on someone they could realistically stop. He was the obvious choice per bosh
And now you're just trolling. You're better than that, dude...

Saddletramp
01-03-2019, 05:05 PM
What the hell does "get the F over myself" even mean? This has nothing to do with me... Use a better response if you're going to try and sound amusing.

Yeah, I turn the game off when he's gifted calls. Plenty of people here have said the same thing. Oh, sorry I don't force myself to watch a game I dislike watching. Maybe I should sit through an entire three hour game because Saddletramp told me so. Hey guys, don't switch the channel without approval from Saddletramp. Unless you pay for my cable bill or TV subscription, you shouldn't be offended that I dislike watching something. Whining is when I bring it up every thread. That's not what I do. You're just selective in what you want to read. And equating that to getting my *** kicked in basketball and telling my parents I got bullied is probably you regurgitating the same response you've likely used previously before. It doesn't even make sense. So anyone who dislikes watching Harden must have felt bullied after they got their *** kicked in basketball? Lmao, what are you even saying? Saddle, I don't tell you what you shouldn't like to watch. Mind your business. People simply dislike watching Harden and he's a running joke in social media for getting fouled. I don't need to explain myself to you. Go complain about Trump on another thread.

You donít understand a lot of things, it seems. I donít know how I can dumb it down any further for you.

FlashBolt
01-03-2019, 05:06 PM
It's weird because you can look at Harden's stats in nominal and advanced versions and walk away saying he's incredible but would you take him over Kobe, Bird, Magic, etc.,? There's a major red flag with Harden to me and that's simply his lack of playoff production. I don't see how anyone can defend this. I saw him shrivel up against Miami and was highly disappointed by that performance.

Counting his four highest PER seasons of his career, these are his average for PER/WS48.
27 PER
.250 WS48

In that same span for the playoffs:

24 PER
.170 WS48


When you're that talented of a player and your team relies on you that much, that's simply too much of a dropoff and it brings into question of just how good are you if you can't perform to standard at the brightest lights. If you want to make the case that Harden is an MVP or at least a high quality candidate for one every season, he should perform as such. I don't want to hear it about the refs tightening up in the playoffs being the reason Harden can't dominate. He averages 8 FT's per 36 minutes during the playoffs versus 8.9 FT's per 36 minutes for the regular season. That 8/10th of a point (assuming he makes that FT) isn't the outlier here. Harden has the regular season stats but the playoffs is an entirely different calling. One where I don't think he has earned the right to be called a superstar.

FlashBolt
01-03-2019, 05:08 PM
You donít understand a lot of things, it seems. I donít know how I can dumb it down any further for you.

Yeah, and you must understand a lot of things because you said so. I really don't understand your premise. Is it whining if the thread is literally about Harden or is it you getting overly emotional about a subject pertaining to your best player of a team you root for? Which one is more likely? Me being a whiner or you being biased? Oh yeah, I love to whine about Harden in PSD. That's very beneficial to me and the countless others who believe the same. Any other precious and valuable content you can contribute? Or have you run out of narratives you'd like to use?

Saddletramp
01-03-2019, 05:18 PM
It's funny that it's mainly Rockets fans who don't see it, though. Do you realize how ironic that is? I would understand if it was a Boston Celtics or Miami Heat fan saying the same but I really haven't seen many outsiders defend Harden getting all the calls that he does get. And it's also funny that they pretend that they are unbiased but the majority of us don't believe they are being unbiased. It's like a damn cult of Harden defenders at this point. I've already stated I don't even blame Harden for taking advantage of it but I do think it's annoying to watch, period. He should do whatever it takes but I don't find it appealing to watch at all. SaddleTramp calls it whining. Do I whine about it on game threads? It's a damn Harden thread so I'm going to speak about why I don't think Harden is regarded as a superstar and his reputation for flopping and getting FT's is a large reason as to why. The problem with it is superstar is being thrown around for any player who gets paid a max. They aren't synonymous. And as good as Harden is, you won't find him as a top five player in everyone's list. Guys like Curry, KD, LeBron have been top five on the list for many years quite unanimously. But hey, what do I know. I'm just the guy who whines about Harden in a thread about James Harden because I'm a Trump supporter who gets bullied after losing basketball games. Gee, Saddle. Anything else you missed?

You admit to not watching the games after seeing multiple gifted calls in a row that are probably 90% legit, mind you, where as some of us watch waaaaaay more Rockets games and donít have our hater glasses on and see that 90% of the mother****ing calls are actual legit mother****ing fouls. Then some guy comes into multiple James Harden threads and just regurgitates the same ďall he does is flop so I immediately turn the game offĒ ******** and you wonder why youíre being called out for being whiny? I think NASCAR is lame but I donít go over to the racing forums and ***** like I have sand in my shorts; I just let it be. If you know youíre going to just up and turn the channel during a game in which Harden is playing then why watch at all? And then you say you have to turn it off after he gets three early gifted calls in a row (which is a goddamn lie)? Remember a few weeks back when people were saying that Harden was flopping in the Lakers game and Bosstone shared the video of all of Hardenís foul calls and there was maybe two questionable ones? People were *****ing before they saw the video and promptly shut the **** up after they watched it.


Youíre ****ing clueless. Again, even if you donít understand it, get over yourself.

Saddletramp
01-03-2019, 05:24 PM
Yeah, and you must understand a lot of things because you said so. I really don't understand your premise. Is it whining if the thread is literally about Harden or is it you getting overly emotional about a subject pertaining to your best player of a team you root for? Which one is more likely? Me being a whiner or you being biased? Oh yeah, I love to whine about Harden in PSD. That's very beneficial to me and the countless others who believe the same. Any other precious and valuable content you can contribute? Or have you run out of narratives you'd like to use?

Iím actually watching the games and not saying inane ******** like ďhe gets gifted three calls and I have to turn it offĒ. No, he knows how guys are going to slap at the ball if he drives with the ball out. He gets it poked out sometimes and loses it, other times he gets hacked. The fouls are 90%ish legit. If you actually watch the goddamn games youíd see that youíre wrong more than youíre right.

I see blown calls in every game and a guy with his usage % gets some calls (and doesnít get calls other times when heís legit fouled) and youíre going to get so mad you have to turn the game off? Yeah, thatís whining.

mightybosstone
01-03-2019, 05:26 PM
It's weird because you can look at Harden's stats in nominal and advanced versions and walk away saying he's incredible but would you take him over Kobe, Bird, Magic, etc.,? There's a major red flag with Harden to me and that's simply his lack of playoff production. I don't see how anyone can defend this. I saw him shrivel up against Miami and was highly disappointed by that performance.
But you're comparing him to three guys pretty much unanimously listed among the 10-15 greatest players of all-time who all had their entire careers to build up that reputation. He's not even 30 yet, and not even the greatest Harden fan would say he's among the 10-15 greatest all-time. So why even make that point?


Counting his four highest PER seasons of his career, these are his average for PER/WS48.
27 PER
.250 WS48

In that same span for the playoffs:

24 PER
.170 WS48
You're making it sound like those are atrocious numbers. That would rank him 10th in all-time career playoff PER and top 40 in all-time career playoff WS/48. Ironically, that PER would be higher than even Magic's career playoff PER and that WS/48 would rank ahead of Kobe and just below Bird's.


When you're that talented of a player and your team relies on you that much, that's simply too much of a dropoff and it brings into question of just how good are you if you can't perform to standard at the brightest lights.

If you want to make the case that Harden is an MVP or at least a high quality candidate for one every season, he should perform as such. I don't want to hear it about the refs tightening up in the playoffs being the reason Harden can't dominate. He averages 8 FT's per 36 minutes during the playoffs versus 8.9 FT's per 36 minutes for the regular season. That 8/10th of a point (assuming he makes that FT) isn't the outlier here. Harden has the regular season stats but the playoffs is an entirely different calling. One where I don't think he has earned the right to be called a superstar.

A. 22.4 PER, .157 WS/48
B. 22.4 PER, .155 WS/48
C. 21.4 PER, .173 WS/48
D. 21.9 PER, .167 WS/48
E. 21.0 PER, .178 WS/48
F. 22.1 PER, .176 WS/48

You know what those numbers are? The career postseason PER and WS/48 of Harden, Oscar, Dr. J, Bird, Wade and Kobe. I'm not going to tell you which athlete belongs to which numbers, because it's irrelevant. Because these numbers are nearly identical.

My point is that Harden's dropoff may be significant, but he's performing in the playoffs at the same level as some of the all-time greats statistically. But because he has those 3-4 poor individual moments you can point to, he's deemed a playoff failure. And while I think his reputation as someone who struggles a bit in the playoffs has been well-deserved because of those individual moments, he's still performing arguably at the same level as some of the 20-25 greatest players in NBA history and guys we would consider having excellent postseason resumes.

FlashBolt
01-03-2019, 05:32 PM
You admit to not watching the games after seeing multiple gifted calls in a row that are probably 90% legit, mind you, where as some of us watch waaaaaay more Rockets games and donít have our hater glasses on and see that 90% of the mother****ing calls are actual legit mother****ing fouls. Then some guy comes into multiple James Harden threads and just regurgitates the same ďall he does is flop so I immediately turn the game offĒ ******** and you wonder why youíre being called out for being whiny? I think NASCAR is lame but I donít go over to the racing forums and ***** like I have sand in my shorts; I just let it be. If you know youíre going to just up and turn the channel during a game in which Harden is playing then why watch at all? And then you say you have to turn it off after he gets three early gifted calls in a row (which is a goddamn lie)? Remember a few weeks back when people were saying that Harden was flopping in the Lakers game and Bosstone shared the video of all of Hardenís foul calls and there was maybe two questionable ones? People were *****ing before they saw the video and promptly shut the **** up after they watched it.


Youíre ****ing clueless. Again, even if you donít understand it, get over yourself.

Keep cursing, buddy. Control your emotions. It's a forum site and I can already feel the anger behind every key stroke you insert. No one has called me whiny but you. However, plenty have stated that they find watching Harden annoying. How about you change your line of thinking and respect what others think instead of trying to force your homered version of Harden down on everyone else? And which part of this being about Harden allows me to bring up Harden getting foul calls don't you understand? You make it seem as if this is a Durant thread and I'm randomly bringing up Harden getting foul calls. Go find a single thread where I've done that. You really have lost it. Saddle isn't biased because Saddle says so. Saddle says I am whining because I am saying Harden is annoying to watch on a thread about Harden despite numerous others saying the exact same thing. Can you read over this thread and see how ridiculous you sound? Or are you the judge of who is right and who is wrong? I never said Harden was flopping in the Lakers game so unless it's something I said, you bringing it up is simply nonsense. What I did say was in that Lakers game, the refs gave Harden too many questionable calls and that ruined what was a great game to watch for me. Am I supposed to say I loved watching Harden get those questionable calls because you liked it? Man, you need a reality check. I can have my opinion and you can have yours. All you've done is type filtered words and try to insult me yet you try to promote yourself as anything but. And yes, I've seen Harden get back-to-back-to-back questionable calls in a game before and if you've been following what I have stated before, I have no problem with questionable calls being rewarded. I have a problem when it's inconsistent when others replicate that same thing and don't get rewarded - which I have stated is more of the refs inability to ref than Harden. You know what I also stated? I hated watching Barkley because he would dribble the ball too long for an unappealing shot and I also turned the TV off. I guess I am a big whiner because I prefer watching something else.

FlashBolt
01-03-2019, 05:45 PM
But you're comparing him to three guys pretty much unanimously listed among the 10-15 greatest players of all-time who all had their entire careers to build up that reputation. He's not even 30 yet, and not even the greatest Harden fan would say he's among the 10-15 greatest all-time. So why even make that point?


You're making it sound like those are atrocious numbers. That would rank him 10th in all-time career playoff PER and top 40 in all-time career playoff WS/48. Ironically, that PER would be higher than even Magic's career playoff PER and that WS/48 would rank ahead of Kobe and just below Bird's.



A. 22.4 PER, .157 WS/48
B. 22.4 PER, .155 WS/48
C. 21.4 PER, .173 WS/48
D. 21.9 PER, .167 WS/48
E. 21.0 PER, .178 WS/48
F. 22.1 PER, .176 WS/48

You know what those numbers are? The career postseason PER and WS/48 of Harden, Oscar, Dr. J, Bird, Wade and Kobe. I'm not going to tell you which athlete belongs to which numbers, because it's irrelevant. Because these numbers are nearly identical.

My point is that Harden's dropoff may be significant, but he's performing in the playoffs at the same level as some of the all-time greats statistically. But because he has those 3-4 poor individual moments you can point to, he's deemed a playoff failure. And while I think his reputation as someone who struggles a bit in the playoffs has been well-deserved because of those individual moments, he's still performing arguably at the same level as some of the 20-25 greatest players in NBA history and guys we would consider having excellent postseason resumes.

1) I brought Kobe, Bird, and Magic up because he is above them in advanced metrics. Those were just the more familiar names but it's also to show that despite the advanced metrics, never in a million years would I take Harden over those guys. It wouldn't make sense for me to compare Harden with a guy like Reggie when Harden is a vastly superior player. At one point, Kobe, Bird, and Magic were all top five players of their time and if we are making the case Harden is currently, we need to look at guys who had lower advanced stats than Harden but why you would still take them over Harden. If Harden is as good as his PER states, I need to see it being replicated. I have yet to see Harden have the "it" moment in the playoffs. He will be 30 by the end of this season. That's not impressive to me. Wade had his "it" moment in 2006 - his third year in the league.

2) Well, I took Harden's best four PER for the playoffs so if you're comparing it to an entire career of another player, you have to consider the naturally lower PER/WS48 they get in the early/latter parts of their career. The ranking would be a lot different if I took the highest four playoffs PER of some players and created a ranking from that.

3) The point is, there is a drop-off and no one can deny it. The greats should be able to sustain it. I'm not saying be better. There's very few who actually elevate their PER during the playoffs such as MJ. Naturally, it should be lower than your regular season PER. But at least stay somewhat consistent. Again, if Harden is every bit as good and MVP worthy, there simply needs to be more shown in the playoffs. And I think that's the part where people hesistate to take Harden more serious in the ranks of Durant, Curry, or LeBron. Others will point to the flopping and fouls. I'm not even considering that. It may be psychological, honestly.

Saddletramp
01-03-2019, 05:54 PM
Iím only getting mad at myself for continuing to have this idiot conversation. The guy has the highest Usage % by far in the league and he knows that guys slap at the ball when he drives with the ball out and he knows his step back three is unguardable yet guys still think that they can guard it. If other guys with his team usage% (theyíre arenít any) drove the lane with their hands out instead of cradled (there arenít any) didnít get the same calls? Thereíd be reason to get upset at the refs. Until there is, donít get mad at them for doing their job.

FlashBolt
01-03-2019, 06:03 PM
Iím only getting mad at myself for continuing to have this idiot conversation. The guy has the highest Usage % by far in the league and he knows that guys slap at the ball when he drives with the ball out and he knows his step back three is unguardable yet guys still think that they can guard it. If other guys with his team usage% (theyíre arenít any) drove the lane with their hands out instead of cradled (there arenít any) didnít get the same calls? Thereíd be reason to get upset at the refs. Until there is, donít get mad at them for doing their job.

Simple. You put me on ignore or I put you on ignore. I don't particularly have a problem with you. It seems you do so feel free to put me on ignore if you're getting mad over something as trivial as this.

mightybosstone
01-03-2019, 06:15 PM
1) I brought Kobe, Bird, and Magic up because he is above them in advanced metrics. Those were just the more familiar names but it's also to show that despite the advanced metrics, never in a million years would I take Harden over those guys. It wouldn't make sense for me to compare Harden with a guy like Reggie when Harden is a vastly superior player. At one point, Kobe, Bird, and Magic were all top five players of their time and if we are making the case Harden is currently, we need to look at guys who had lower advanced stats than Harden but why you would still take them over Harden. If Harden is as good as his PER states, I need to see it being replicated. I have yet to see Harden have the "it" moment in the playoffs. He will be 30 by the end of this season. That's not impressive to me. Wade had his "it" moment in 2006 - his third year in the league.
I agree Harden needs to play better in the postseason, and 1-2 big moments wouldn't hurt. But the era he's peaked in hasn't exactly done him any favors. How is he supposed to have an "it" moment (which traditionally are almost always in the Finals) when he's playing against one of the most talented teams in NBA history? He might have had that shot last year if Paul doesn't get hurt, but it's kinda hard to make the Finals in the Western Conference these days...


2) Well, I took Harden's best four PER for the playoffs so if you're comparing it to an entire career of another player, you have to consider the naturally lower PER/WS48 they get in the early/latter parts of their career. The ranking would be a lot different if I took the highest four playoffs PER of some players and created a ranking from that.
Not necessarily. Because you're dealing with smaller sample sizes, advanced stats year-to-year in the playoffs can vary pretty significantly from player to player.


3) The point is, there is a drop-off and no one can deny it. The greats should be able to sustain it. I'm not saying be better. There's very few who actually elevate their PER during the playoffs such as MJ. Naturally, it should be lower than your regular season PER. But at least stay somewhat consistent. Again, if Harden is every bit as good and MVP worthy, there simply needs to be more shown in the playoffs. And I think that's the part where people hesistate to take Harden more serious in the ranks of Durant, Curry, or LeBron. Others will point to the flopping and fouls. I'm not even considering that. It may be psychological, honestly.
There's a dropoff with a lot of guys, dude. I just did the math, and Harden's regular season PER to posteason PER dropoff 8.4 percent, and his regular season WS/48 to postseason WS/48 dropoff about 24.4 percent. Compare that to Bird, whose dropoff was 8.9 percent and 14.8 percent, respectively. Then compare it to someone like Karl Malone, who regularly gets listed among the 25-30 greatest players all-time despite poor playoff performance, whose dropoff was 11.7 percent and 31.7 percent.

I'm not saying Harden's dropoff isn't there or that criticism isn't warranted. But he also isn't this completely useless player in the postseason. For every awful moment, he's had 1-2 really big games no one every talks about. He still needs a defining moment and a title to really deserve consideration among the all-time greats. But even if he never gets a ring, he's probably still a top 25ish all-time player once he retires.

Scoots
01-03-2019, 06:23 PM
I thought you were joking when I first saw this. Then I looked up the voting numbers. I'm at a total loss for how that's possible. But NBA fans do tend to live 10 years in the past. Maybe people forgot what year it was?

It does illustrate Hardens popularity among fans though. It's totally nuts that Rose is ahead of Harden.

mightybosstone
01-03-2019, 06:27 PM
It does illustrate Hardens popularity among fans though. It's totally nuts that Rose is ahead of Harden.

Doncic is also ahead of Durant, Davis and George. Does that mean he's more popular or a better player in any way than those guys? You're reaching again, Scoots.

valade16
01-03-2019, 06:27 PM
For all the criticism of Harden, he is definitely a superstar.

FlashBolt
01-03-2019, 06:34 PM
I agree Harden needs to play better in the postseason, and 1-2 big moments wouldn't hurt. But the era he's peaked in hasn't exactly done him any favors. How is he supposed to have an "it" moment (which traditionally are almost always in the Finals) when he's playing against one of the most talented teams in NBA history? He might have had that shot last year if Paul doesn't get hurt, but it's kinda hard to make the Finals in the Western Conference these days...


Not necessarily. Because you're dealing with smaller sample sizes, advanced stats year-to-year in the playoffs can vary pretty significantly from player to player.


There's a dropoff with a lot of guys, dude. I just did the math, and Harden's regular season PER to posteason PER dropoff 8.4 percent, and his regular season WS/48 to postseason WS/48 dropoff about 24.4 percent. Compare that to Bird, whose dropoff was 8.9 percent and 14.8 percent, respectively. Then compare it to someone like Karl Malone, who regularly gets listed among the 25-30 greatest players all-time despite poor playoff performance, whose dropoff was 11.7 percent and 31.7 percent.

I'm not saying Harden's dropoff isn't there or that criticism isn't warranted. But he also isn't this completely useless player in the postseason. For every awful moment, he's had 1-2 really big games no one every talks about. He still needs a defining moment and a title to really deserve consideration among the all-time greats. But even if he never gets a ring, he's probably still a top 25ish all-time player once he retires.

Hey, if you're satisfied with him being a top 25 player of all-time, that's fine. But if we're being honest and comparing him to the other all-time greats, these things matter. I'm glad we can agree on the his lack of playoff performances and while yes, everything seems to be mitigated because of the feeling that the Warriors will smash any team anyways but this wasn't the case in Harden's first NBA Finals nor was it when Pop rested Kawhi for the series to rest his ankle and this happened:

http://www.espn.com/nba/boxscore/_/id/400952495

There are more examples but this was a game where a guy of Harden's caliber simply has to play better and when we're talking about top five players, deserving players get cut off and games like these simply matter on a microscopic level. Even though CP3 was hurt, Rockets still had two chances to close the series and were up double digits heading to the fourth in the final games. Missing that many threes was insane but Harden shot like 2-13. It should have been his responsibility to find other ways to win. Because you know what the situation looks like if LeBron shoots 2-13 while being up 3-2 with homecourt advantage when his team is up at halftime by double digits in games 6/7? Yeah... it's not a great look for him. And while Harden is not on LeBron's caliber, if we are to say he's the MVP of the regular season and a superstar, I expect more than what he's shown in the postseason.

Not necessarily in terms of what? The majority of athletes have those few years where their output subsidizes the rest of their career in terms of stats. Vince Carter/Dirk/Kobe weren't doing their stats any favors by playing as long as they did. MJ hurt his stats by playing for the Wizards. Shaq hurt his stats by staying longer than he should. I don't see where the disagreement comes from. If I did their top four seasons playoffs PER, I guarantee Harden isn't sniffing top ten.

As for the PER in the playoffs % drop-off, my point isn't to bash Harden and say he's a terrible player. It's just he's a terrible version of his regular season self. It simply is the truth. When he has the ball that many possessions, the stats will accumulate and the PER will be higher than say someone who barely touches the ball and plays poorly when he does get the ball. Russell Westbrook hasn't been a great playoff performer as well, IMO. Despite his playoffs PER saying otherwise, I never got the sense that he's dominated in a playoff season. He simply just controls the ball too many possessions to not have a higher PER.

I am indifferent as to whether Harden succeeds or not. I don't want him to lose anymore than I want him to win. It simply doesn't matter to me. But if we are going to start calling him a superstar when he hasn't shown much in the playoffs despite a nine year stint of being in the playoffs, we have to start nitpicking.

FlashBolt
01-03-2019, 06:39 PM
Doncic is also ahead of Durant, Davis and George. Does that mean he's more popular or a better player in any way than those guys? You're reaching again, Scoots.

The varying posts is due to our own definition of what superstar means. I think Scoots is more into the total package and one reasoning he is using is the fact Rose has gotten more votes than Harden so far. C'mon, we all know he isn't implying Rose is more popular or better than Harden. He's simply stating that it makes you question just how "popular" Harden is if a guy like Rose can somehow get more votes than him. If you're a superstar, that simply shouldn't happen when one guy is clearly a superior player. Doncic is getting a lot of Euro supporters so that's an easy explanation. He has an entire continent to support him. He's used different sources such as jersey sales as well so it's not to say he's limiting this to votes only. I'd say marketability, sales, social media followers, endorsements, how good you are as a player, etc., are all legitimate values of being a superstar. A guy like LeBron, Kobe, etc., are superstars. Duncan, Dirk, KG? Nah. As good as they were, not superstars.

Saddletramp
01-03-2019, 06:39 PM
Simple. You put me on ignore or I put you on ignore. I don't particularly have a problem with you. It seems you do so feel free to put me on ignore if you're getting mad over something as trivial as this.

I actually some of your takes/posts. This just doesnít happen to be one of them.

mightybosstone
01-03-2019, 07:00 PM
Hey, if you're satisfied with him being a top 25 player of all-time, that's fine. But if we're being honest and comparing him to the other all-time greats, these things matter.
Top 25 all-time would still be a hell of an accomplishment and would still absolutely warrant title of "superstar," which is what this thread is about in the first place. Would I like to see him win a ring or two and catapult himself into that top 10-15 discussion? Absolutely.


I'm glad we can agree on the his lack of playoff performances and while yes, everything seems to be mitigated because of the feeling that the Warriors will smash any team anyways but this wasn't the case in Harden's first NBA Finals nor was it when Pop rested Kawhi for the series to rest his ankle and this happened:

http://www.espn.com/nba/boxscore/_/id/400952495
You're posting a box score of a single game. I could post a dozen box scores of postseason performances that make him look like a stud. But I'm aware of how bad that game was without clicking on the link. Point taken.


Even though CP3 was hurt, Rockets still had two chances to close the series and were up double digits heading to the fourth in the final games.
False. They were up double digits heading into the second half. The Warriors killed them in the third quarters of those games.


Missing that many threes was insane but Harden shot like 2-13. It should have been his responsibility to find other ways to win.
Agreed, but I remember that game and it wasn't for lack of trying on his part. He was driving and dishing, and guys were getting good looks, but just flat out missing them. When your offense is predicated on a player driving and dishing to open shooters, guys have to hit those shots, or you're going to lose those games.


Because you know what the situation looks like if LeBron shoots 2-13 while being up 3-2 with homecourt advantage when his team is up at halftime by double digits in games 6/7? Yeah... it's not a great look for him. And while Harden is not on LeBron's caliber, if we are to say he's the MVP of the regular season and a superstar, I expect more than what he's shown in the postseason.
Yeah, but the dude still posted 32/6/6/4/1 in that game. Not saying it was an efficient 32 points, but he was hardly as awful as you're making him out to be.


Not necessarily in terms of what? The majority of athletes have those few years where their output subsidizes the rest of their career in terms of stats. Vince Carter/Dirk/Kobe weren't doing their stats any favors by playing as long as they did. MJ hurt his stats by playing for the Wizards. Shaq hurt his stats by staying longer than he should. I don't see where the disagreement comes from. If I did their top four seasons playoffs PER, I guarantee Harden isn't sniffing top ten.
It's not so much a disagreement so much as an acknowledgement that advanced stats in small samples can look great/horrible regardless of whether a player is in his peak or well before/past his prime. As you stated earlier, Wade peaked in his third season in the league. By that point, we had no clue who Harden was as a player. Some guys have their best postseasons early on or later in their careers.


As for the PER in the playoffs % drop-off, my point isn't to bash Harden and say he's a terrible player. It's just he's a terrible version of his regular season self. It simply is the truth. When he has the ball that many possessions, the stats will accumulate and the PER will be higher than say someone who barely touches the ball and plays poorly when he does get the ball. Russell Westbrook hasn't been a great playoff performer as well, IMO. Despite his playoffs PER saying otherwise, I never got the sense that he's dominated in a playoff season. He simply just controls the ball too many possessions to not have a higher PER.

I am indifferent as to whether Harden succeeds or not. I don't want him to lose anymore than I want him to win. It simply doesn't matter to me. But if we are going to start calling him a superstar when he hasn't shown much in the playoffs despite a nine year stint of being in the playoffs, we have to start nitpicking.
But whether Harden wins a title or starts performing better in the playoffs doesn't mean he isn't still a superstar. No one in this thread is arguing that Harden doesn't need to shake the moniker of being a playoff failure or is unwilling to admit that he's had some ugly postseason performances he'd probably like to forget. But, overall, his postseason production is still better than probably 99% of players in the history of the NBA, and he's still performing at a superstar level.

FlashBolt
01-03-2019, 07:15 PM
Top 25 all-time would still be a hell of an accomplishment and would still absolutely warrant title of "superstar," which is what this thread is about in the first place. Would I like to see him win a ring or two and catapult himself into that top 10-15 discussion? Absolutely.


You're posting a box score of a single game. I could post a dozen box scores of postseason performances that make him look like a stud. But I'm aware of how bad that game was without clicking on the link. Point taken.


False. They were up double digits heading into the second half. The Warriors killed them in the third quarters of those games.


Agreed, but I remember that game and it wasn't for lack of trying on his part. He was driving and dishing, and guys were getting good looks, but just flat out missing them. When your offense is predicated on a player driving and dishing to open shooters, guys have to hit those shots, or you're going to lose those games.


Yeah, but the dude still posted 32/6/6/4/1 in that game. Not saying it was an efficient 32 points, but he was hardly as awful as you're making him out to be.


It's not so much a disagreement so much as an acknowledgement that advanced stats in small samples can look great/horrible regardless of whether a player is in his peak or well before/past his prime. As you stated earlier, Wade peaked in his third season in the league. By that point, we had no clue who Harden was as a player. Some guys have their best postseasons early on or later in their careers.


But whether Harden wins a title or starts performing better in the playoffs doesn't mean he isn't still a superstar. No one in this thread is arguing that Harden doesn't need to shake the moniker of being a playoff failure or is unwilling to admit that he's had some ugly postseason performances he'd probably like to forget. But, overall, his postseason production is still better than probably 99% of players in the history of the NBA, and he's still performing at a superstar level.

1) I have many box scores to show, though, lol. That was just the one where I felt he should have taken over since Kawhi wasn't there. Rockets should have won that one. I remember it vividly, too. They were saying Pop was pretty much willing to lose that game 6 in hopes of Kawhi being able to get enough rest and play in game 7.

2) Yeah, I misspoke. They were up in both games heading into the third quarter.

3) Ehhh, not going to let that slide. His teammates missed shots as well but he missed the most. He's got to get the bulk of the blame, period.

4) 32/6/6/4/1 isn't a great statline when you're taking nearly 30 shots and turning the ball over five times. Without context, man, I'd take that any day. But we've seen players pump up stats in a game and you had no idea they were even doing anything close to that.

5) It was more so to counter your argument that Harden's top four playoffs PER seasons (24) would rank top ten in the NBA playoffs PER ranking and I stated that it's not under the same criteria. He wouldn't be top ten if we simply limited it to the same standard I did with Harden. And while you're right that some players peak early and some later in their career, they are in the significant minority. Most players follow the mountain graph image of stats. You start off okay, get better, plateau, and then there is a natural decline. I remember when years ago the talk became of LeBron's stats and how they are very similar to MJ but were unsustainable because he would suffer a decline that would bring down that average as he got into his 30's. Heck, even I was expecting it.

6) I disagree and that's mainly due to my defintion of superstar differing from yours. I think in terms of strictly basketball, Harden is an elite player. I'd like to keep my superstar definition exclusive because how do you go above being a superstar? There really isn't any other category. LeBron is a superstar and I can't realistically put Harden in that same discussion. I'd put Harden in the same tier as guys like Westbrook, Kawhi, Giannis, AD, etc., but for superstars, IMO, KD, Steph, and LeBron are the only three I would say qualify.

mightybosstone
01-03-2019, 07:28 PM
1) I have many box scores to show, though, lol. That was just the one where I felt he should have taken over since Kawhi wasn't there. Rockets should have won that one. I remember it vividly, too. They were saying Pop was pretty much willing to lose that game 6 in hopes of Kawhi being able to get enough rest and play in game 7.
Honestly, they lost that series in Game 5, not Game 6. That game went to overtime, and they had no business losing, but Harden was gassed and they had nothing left. The whole team was just devastated, and Harden looked exhausted by the end. Not making excuses, but I wasn't surprised when they got blown out in the first quarter and the whole team looked like crap.


3) Ehhh, not going to let that slide. His teammates missed shots as well but he missed the most. He's got to get the bulk of the blame, period.
But he was playing without his No. 2 agains the freaking Warriors. NO ONE expected them to lose that game. Also, as far as "missing the most," I point to the guy who everyone seems to think completely killed the Rockets this season with his departure: Trevor Ariza. Ariza was a whopping 0-12 in that game, including 0-9 from the 3-point line. Say what you will about Harden, but Ariza had one of the single worst shooting games I've ever seen from a player in my life.


4) 32/6/6/4/1 isn't a great statline when you're taking nearly 30 shots and turning the ball over five times. Without context, man, I'd take that any day. But we've seen players pump up stats in a game and you had no idea they were even doing anything close to that.
Dude shot 41.4% from the floor. I'm not saying it's an incredible game, but if other guys were hitting shots, you wouldn't even notice that. Hell, that's a classic Kobe statline. And I guarantee nobody would call out Kobe for inefficiency.


6) I disagree and that's mainly due to my defintion of superstar differing from yours. I think in terms of strictly basketball, Harden is an elite player. I'd like to keep my superstar definition exclusive because how do you go above being a superstar? There really isn't any other category. LeBron is a superstar and I can't realistically put Harden in that same discussion. I'd put Harden in the same tier as guys like Westbrook, Kawhi, Giannis, AD, etc., but for superstars, IMO, KD, Steph, and LeBron are the only three I would say qualify.
He won an MVP and finished in the top two for MVP twice. If you're the best player in the world and rank top 3-5 in the league for a 5-7 year stretch, you're a superstar. Period. You're welcome to disagree, and I recognize that it's a subjective term. But you're in the vast, vast minority of people who wouldn't consider James Harden to be a superstar.

FlashBolt
01-03-2019, 07:43 PM
Honestly, they lost that series in Game 5, not Game 6. That game went to overtime, and they had no business losing, but Harden was gassed and they had nothing left. The whole team was just devastated, and Harden looked exhausted by the end. Not making excuses, but I wasn't surprised when they got blown out in the first quarter and the whole team looked like crap.


But he was playing without his No. 2 agains the freaking Warriors. NO ONE expected them to lose that game. Also, as far as "missing the most," I point to the guy who everyone seems to think completely killed the Rockets this season with his departure: Trevor Ariza. Ariza was a whopping 0-12 in that game, including 0-9 from the 3-point line. Say what you will about Harden, but Ariza had one of the single worst shooting games I've ever seen from a player in my life.


Dude shot 41.4% from the floor. I'm not saying it's an incredible game, but if other guys were hitting shots, you wouldn't even notice that. Hell, that's a classic Kobe statline. And I guarantee nobody would call out Kobe for inefficiency.


He won an MVP and finished in the top two for MVP twice. If you're the best player in the world and rank top 3-5 in the league for a 5-7 year stretch, you're a superstar. Period. You're welcome to disagree, and I recognize that it's a subjective term. But you're in the vast, vast minority of people who wouldn't consider James Harden to be a superstar.

Not really a good argument to defend Harden. He played bad and they lost. He plays a bit better and they might win. Losing CP3 was a bit hit but they still were within striking distance. A few plays here and there by Harden to stop the bleeding and we could be looking at the defending champions, Houston Rockets. C'mon, you know there are those "what-if" moments about Harden you think to yourself just like I did when we lost to the Warriors being up 3-1. When we lost to the Warriors, I put the blame on KD and Westbrook. It's just as acceptable to blame Harden as well because he didn't step up.

Kobe's 6-24 would be called out more often but they won so Kobe-defenders only other grasp to defend Kobe was his rebounding (lol). I mean, it wasn't a "James Harden" regular season game, y'know? I expected more and that should tell you enough of what I think about Harden in that I have high expectations of a player who is that talented.

Yup, that's where the difference in superstar comes from and him not having, as you have stated, enough playoffs moments despite having 9 years to create them and also, being nearly aged 30, is a large reason as to why his superstar status hasn't taken off with me. It's all coming down to winning as well. If he wins, the jersey sales, popularity, and status improves. If he poopoos in the playoffs, what do you want me to do with that?

valade16
01-03-2019, 07:48 PM
Who was more responsible for the Knicks loss to the Rockets in the 94 Finals?

John Starks who went 2/18 (0/11 from 3) in Game 7 or Patrick Ewing who shot 36% for the series and only scored 17 points in Game 7?

mightybosstone
01-03-2019, 08:05 PM
Not really a good argument to defend Harden. He played bad and they lost. He plays a bit better and they might win.
If anyone on the team had played a little better, they probably win. Harden still played a hell of a lot better than any other Rocket on the floor.


Losing CP3 was a bit hit but they still were within striking distance. A few plays here and there by Harden to stop the bleeding and we could be looking at the defending champions, Houston Rockets. C'mon, you know there are those "what-if" moments about Harden you think to yourself just like I did when we lost to the Warriors being up 3-1. When we lost to the Warriors, I put the blame on KD and Westbrook. It's just as acceptable to blame Harden as well because he didn't step up.
Not saying Harden doesn't deserve some of the blame. If he has an otherworldly game in Game 7, they might have had a shot. But the whole team crapped in the bad in that second half, and I still remember thinking at the time "Harden is playing well, but guys are just missing open looks."

Also, I'm not usually one to complain about the officiating, which is why I've never brought up that game. But one of these days I'm going to get really drunk and go on a rant about how much the Rockets got screwed by the officials that night. Just Google "Rockets Warriors Game 7 refs" and see how many videos there are highlighting that game. Harden got fouled on back-to-back 3-pointers (which Miller and Webber called out during the broadcast) and then he got an obvious 4-point play opportunity that the refs took away because they claimed he wasn't shooting (even thought he was clearly going up to shoot when Klay hacked him).

Again, I'm not going to blame the officials for the loss, because the Rockets had their chances, but the longer we talk about that Game 7, the more likely I am to rant about this. So let's move on...


Kobe's 6-24 would be called out more often but they won so Kobe-defenders only other grasp to defend Kobe was his rebounding (lol). I mean, it wasn't a "James Harden" regular season game, y'know? I expected more and that should tell you enough of what I think about Harden in that I have high expectations of a player who is that talented.
But having regular season expectations for a player in the playoffs is a mistake in the first place. You should know going in that guys aren't going to be performing at the same level and that efficiencies and production are going to take a hit. Should they dropoff substantially? No, but they do. And (again), Harden isn't alone in that regard.


Yup, that's where the difference in superstar comes from and him not having, as you have stated, enough playoffs moments despite having 9 years to create them and also, being nearly aged 30, is a large reason as to why his superstar status hasn't taken off with me. It's all coming down to winning as well. If he wins, the jersey sales, popularity, and status improves. If he poopoos in the playoffs, what do you want me to do with that?
Jordan didn't win his first ring until his 8th season in the league. Lebron didn't win his first until his 9th. Harden is in his 10th. There's till plenty of time for him to make his mark. But if he doesn't, dude was still a superstar player and is a lock as a first-ballot Hall of Famer.

GREATNESS ONE
01-03-2019, 08:30 PM
Who was more responsible for the Knicks loss to the Rockets in the 94 Finals?

John Starks who went 2/18 (0/11 from 3) in Game 7 or Patrick Ewing who shot 36% for the series and only scored 17 points in Game 7?

Both... they both lost the moment... too bad because I used to like watching those Knicks

nastynice
01-03-2019, 10:06 PM
Yeah he is but talk to me when Harden wins a title

Well if the thread title was does harden have a title then I would understand your reply, but you don't need a title to be a superstar IMO.

Saddletramp
01-03-2019, 11:43 PM
Not winning against the Warriors without CP3 shouldnít be a detriment. People have said last years Warriors team might be the greatest of all time. And the Rockets lost mostly because they missed wide open shots. Lebron said a few days ago that he should be the GOAT after winning in 16 (that argument is for a different thread) but that was without Durant on GS. And people (mainly Flashbolt here) are holding that game against Harden? He should be praised for being up at the half and keeping it somewhat close even with all of the second half team misses.

Curry/Durant/Klay/Green vrs Harden/Tucker/Ariza/Gordon/Capela.

Harden and Curry arguably cancel each other out. Tuckerís great, but heís no Green. Gordonís great, but heís no Klay. Arizaís great but heís no Durant. Capelaís the only pure upgrade but thatís not enough when youíre talking about 2 of the top 3 in the NBA.


The 2011 Finals where Bosh admitted to them honing in on him? The Spurs collapse? Ok. But not last yearís Game 7.

FlashBolt
01-04-2019, 02:31 AM
Not winning against the Warriors without CP3 shouldnít be a detriment. People have said last years Warriors team might be the greatest of all time. And the Rockets lost mostly because they missed wide open shots. Lebron said a few days ago that he should be the GOAT after winning in 16 (that argument is for a different thread) but that was without Durant on GS. And people (mainly Flashbolt here) are holding that game against Harden? He should be praised for being up at the half and keeping it somewhat close even with all of the second half team misses.

Curry/Durant/Klay/Green vrs Harden/Tucker/Ariza/Gordon/Capela.

Harden and Curry arguably cancel each other out. Tuckerís great, but heís no Green. Gordonís great, but heís no Klay. Arizaís great but heís no Durant. Capelaís the only pure upgrade but thatís not enough when youíre talking about 2 of the top 3 in the NBA.


The 2011 Finals where Bosh admitted to them honing in on him? The Spurs collapse? Ok. But not last yearís Game 7.

I said he played bad. I never said he was expected to win. Pinpoint where I said that. There's no shame in going out playing well but when you play bad, I can attribute certain reasons as to why you lost to that individual. There's a reason why no one could realistically blame LeBron for 2014-2015 and it's because he went out swinging and played amazing considering what he had. Harden didn't and that was a significantly better roster than what LeBron had despite the Warriors having Durant.

Saddletramp
01-04-2019, 04:35 AM
I said he played bad. I never said he was expected to win. Pinpoint where I said that. There's no shame in going out playing well but when you play bad, I can attribute certain reasons as to why you lost to that individual. There's a reason why no one could realistically blame LeBron for 2014-2015 and it's because he went out swinging and played amazing considering what he had. Harden didn't and that was a significantly better roster than what LeBron had despite the Warriors having Durant.

Wonder why he played bad? Hmmmmm. Iím stumped. And no one is comparing Harden to Lebron. Only you.

Heediot
01-04-2019, 07:22 AM
Nothing against harden. No way in hell should morey harden the greatest scorer of all time. His stats geekiness is getting In the way. He's not even close to Jordan especially in the post season. And if bron wanted to hed probably score more. I even think kd is a better scorer.

cmellofan15
01-04-2019, 10:00 AM
https://streamable.com/v41e0

Draymond knows Harden is a superstar

mightybosstone
01-04-2019, 10:07 AM
Nothing against harden. No way in hell should morey harden the greatest scorer of all time. His stats geekiness is getting In the way. He's not even close to Jordan especially in the post season. And if bron wanted to hed probably score more. I even think kd is a better scorer.

Read the article, dude. He didn't say he was the greatest scorer ever. He said an argument could be made for Harden as the greatest offensive player ever. Those are two different distinctions.

Also, you're clearly overthinking it. His best player had an unbelievable game and he was asked for a comment from ESPN. Of course he was going to rain compliments on the guy. It's not like he said "Harden is the GOAT!"

Hawkeye15
01-04-2019, 10:15 AM
I watched the highlights from last night. Look, I despise Harden's theatrics. I do. I HATE them.

But.....

He is unstoppable. His ability to make instant changes depending on the defenders reaction is unmatched. I have never seen the reflex that immediate, and that on target time after time. He literally gives no hint at his intent, and he is the best 1-1 scorer the game has right now, without a doubt. That game winner was impossible.

I just hope the guy can kill the playoff failure tag at some point soon. It will define his legacy if not, and we know he has the ability to do so. Just do it already James.

cmellofan15
01-04-2019, 10:18 AM
If you think he's unstoppable you should check out this Austin Rivers kid..... undefeated since joining his new squad lmao

valade16
01-04-2019, 01:07 PM
I watched the highlights from last night. Look, I despise Harden's theatrics. I do. I HATE them.

But.....

He is unstoppable. His ability to make instant changes depending on the defenders reaction is unmatched. I have never seen the reflex that immediate, and that on target time after time. He literally gives no hint at his intent, and he is the best 1-1 scorer the game has right now, without a doubt. That game winner was impossible.

I just hope the guy can kill the playoff failure tag at some point soon. It will define his legacy if not, and we know he has the ability to do so. Just do it already James.

It's funny because most people who detest the hero ball style of play have to admire that Harden has somehow found a way of doing it efficiently.

ewing
01-04-2019, 01:32 PM
It's funny because most people who detest the hero ball style of play have to admire that Harden has somehow found a way of doing it efficiently.

Most just say a play is b/c of ball movement when the shot goes in but call it an ISO if they its a miss.

Hawkeye15
01-04-2019, 02:50 PM
It's funny because most people who detest the hero ball style of play have to admire that Harden has somehow found a way of doing it efficiently.

well, my problem with iso, as many others, is there are really only a handful of guys that have any business doing it. Harden is one of them. The problem is, every coach has a guy they use, and most of them just destroy your offense doing it. Hell even Kobe was terrible at it, yet his coaches and his fans just kept wanting it.

Hawkeye15
01-04-2019, 02:51 PM
Most just say a play is b/c of ball movement when the shot goes in but call it an ISO if they its a miss.

iso is iso. It's like the easiest thing to identify on the basketball court haha

Chronz
01-05-2019, 01:43 PM
Yes, really.


For real, for real...





Ummm..... Isn't that kinda what I just did? If you'd like, I can pull up other stats, like WS, WS/48, BPM or VORP, all of which give Harden a pretty healthy statistical advantage. :shrug:


*** no u didn't.





Except he didn't produce superior numbers. We've covered that already.

He did tho, and in a tougher environment while not having anywhere near the system benefits that dantoni provides an individual. While , oh yeah, also playing in a tougher environment.




If that's the case, why compare ANY statistical data? Seriously, you just asked me to produce stats for you that prove Harden is the superior player, then act as if comparing them statistically is completely pointless. Which is it, dude? You can't have your cake and eat it, too.

The answer is obvious, you can at least use era transitive stats and build from there, it's as if you think I've never looked into these magical numbers and feel as tho you can pull a fast one by giving me archaic breakdowns. You do know the entire purpose of a statistical barometer is to make these comps worthwhile. It's why Wilts insane raw stats get bumped down a peg when looking at era translations. And even with those stats, impact stats depict bill Russell in similar light. So believe me, i'm not impressed by a rs whero (whore+hero).



You're missing a pretty massive difference here: Wade is/was always an atrocious 3-point shooter. Harden is not. Also, Wade wasn't the pick and roll creator that Harden is, regardless of passing skills. That's what made Harden the perfect player for D'Antoni's system.

I disagree entirely, he was a FAR superior pnr player, he just never played under a coach that's infamous for spamming the play in a stretch system in 2019.




My point is that the guy clearly had free reign to do whatever he wanted in that offense, and he didn't produce at the same level Harden did. Figured this was common sense...

Hollow point, it ignores the vast differences in one's system and era. Remember how in the curry thread (might be this one) you wanted us to ignore production from two contemporaries simply because of a system and 2 years? Yeah let's not be selective here, these players are much further apart and when they were in the league(prime form), nobody was dumb enough to think of harden as the superior player despite his superior surface level stats.





PER? OK,

Ur doing this wrong, not just PER, but an edge in PER despite a lower usage in a harsher environment with superior 2 way play that ACTUALLY translates into the loffs to the highest degree.




Wade has the slight edge there, but Harden clearly dominates every other statistical category, especially WS,


Lol, by every other you mean a bunch of irrelevant detail and by dominate you mean decimal points, lmao. Its why you went from claiming an impossibility (that wade could approach those numbers) to now seeing its within the realm of possibility, ESPECIALLY in the dantoni formula lol(yes I'm reading ahead when responding)





which you're clearly not reading correctly. Wade's best WS/48 season was .239 and the year in question (08-09), he boasted .232. Harden has topped .240 three times and is trending to easily passing it again this season.


By God, imagine arguing decimal points when the stat in question clearly ignores the superior defender and actual winner when it counts most, you know, the guy who's dick didn't shrivel in cold climate. Those decimal points are easily explained away by superior 2way play. I'll check the numbers later but man this sounds like your quivering in your boots




Mmm... They're essentially identical, and Harden has consistently posted superior BPM numbers. Wade topped a 10.0+ BPM that one season, but Harden is doing it for his third consecutive year.


That's the point, basically negligible, only one never played for dantoni in 2019 and played defense AND his play translated to the toughest of environments. You seeing the complete picture yet?



Could Wade have posted similar numbers to Harden? It's not completely impossible


He already did, this despite the obvious disadvantages, but this line is where you went from boastful ignorance to humility. Yes its not impossible for a superior athlete who already produced superior results to do the same in this soft af for a wing era.




, but I think you're seriously underrating the impact of 3-point shooting in this offense and how much Harden's ability to shoot an absurdly high volume of 3s is integral to everything the Rockets do. I'll defer to that Ringer article I posted that came out today as the perfect example of what I'm talking about.


You've already contradicted yourself on the subject that is harden, why would I care? The ringer article doesn't compare wade vs harden, I guarantee if you were to poll the columnists, the majority would rank wade superior.





But, bottom line, I don't like to play the hypothetical game. The eras they played in were not that absurdly different as you're suggesting.

but they are different and again, it's not JUST the era but the SYSTEM they playi under.




They were literally drafted six years apart.


That literally matters. Especially given the freedom of movement.





The game didn't change THAT MUCH in six year. The other thing you're not factoring in is how short Wade's peak was and how injuries killed his prime so quickly in the middle of that four-year run he had with Lebron. His peak lasted about seven years, or as long as Harden has been in Houston. So if James just keeps playing the way he's playing, he'll easily surpass that within a couple of seasons.



James could play how he's been for another 2 decades. If his dick keeps shriveling, no one will care.






Then we can agree to disagree. But I'll go ahead and take my own opinion as someone who watches most Rockets games every season over someone who's admitted he's watched all of one whole NBA game this year.

Literally nobody gives a ****. Ive dealt with Homers, the fact that you think watching a single team incessantly makes you objective is objectively laughable when you've followed the sport as long as I have. Yes i know, you'd suck your own dick if you could.





And now you're just trolling. You're better than that, dude...
Nope, I've actually delved into the data you mindlessly spew.

Chronz
01-05-2019, 01:51 PM
iso is iso. It's like the easiest thing to identify on the basketball court haha
It's easiest for everyone, why do you think when teams actually gameplan, harden has historically struggled

Chronz
01-05-2019, 01:52 PM
Well if the thread title was does harden have a title then I would understand your reply, but you don't need a title to be a superstar IMO.

Bingo, a **** ton of players have never won that are superior to harden. Imagine a world where we e cared about the most significant moments

Chronz
01-05-2019, 01:59 PM
I watched the highlights from last night. Look, I despise Harden's theatrics. I do. I HATE them.

But.....

He is unstoppable. His ability to make instant changes depending on the defenders reaction is unmatched. I have never seen the reflex that immediate, and that on target time after time. He literally gives no hint at his intent, and he is the best 1-1 scorer the game has right now, without a doubt. That game winner was impossible.

I just hope the guy can kill the playoff failure tag at some point soon. It will define his legacy if not, and we know he has the ability to do so. Just do it already James.

Saw the second half, impressive but its January. So who the **** cares when it's from someone who habitually degrades when the games matter most. If this were someone we didn't know, I'd get it. But we've seen this movie already. Heres hoping he FINALLY lives up to his billing because I've witnessed the harden experience in the loffs, its beyond underwhelming

zookman65
01-05-2019, 03:39 PM
This thread isnt aging well. Is Superstar a scientific term that can be clearly defined?

mightybosstone
01-05-2019, 05:14 PM
Never mind. I'm not going to let this get more heated than it needs to be. Let's just suffice it to say we agree to disagree, chronz. Wade has the edge now, but if things continue on this trajectory, he won't by the time Harden retires.

nastynice
01-06-2019, 03:37 PM
Bingo, a **** ton of players have never won that are superior to harden. Imagine a world where we e cared about the most significant moments

Oh, actually I DO care about significant moments,i think they def carry weight. However I don't think they are the entirety of a players evaluation. Harden has been a top 3 mvp candidate for 3 years now, he is heavily leaned on in arguably the most efficient offense in nba history, at worst a top 5. He is a 6 7 (or something) shooting guard who plays a lot of point and is one of the best in the league at it. This is a league with curry, kyrie, dame... That position ain't no slouch.

I can't see anyones logic that dictate him anything less than a superstar. Losing in the playoffs doesn't automatically take that title from someone IMO

Tg11
01-06-2019, 04:46 PM
Harden is a superstar but is he the best ever? Is he one of the greatest ever? Debatable at this point. I mean yeah he is in beast mode and his team has been winning. However, in the playoffs in a playoff series can Harden turn it on when it matters? When Harden gets to a Finals again or he wins his 1st title then his legacy will truly be solidified but for now he is just an elite star.

nastynice
01-07-2019, 04:18 AM
Harden is a superstar but is he the best ever? Is he one of the greatest ever? Debatable at this point. I mean yeah he is in beast mode and his team has been winning. However, in the playoffs in a playoff series can Harden turn it on when it matters? When Harden gets to a Finals again or he wins his 1st title then his legacy will truly be solidified but for now he is just an elite star.

All said and done I think he'll retire as one of the best 2 guards to play. He's legit on kobe Wade level offensively, statistically maybe even better actually. He's in his prime and should have a few elite seasons left, he can get there.

Hawkeye15
01-07-2019, 11:34 AM
It's easiest for everyone, why do you think when teams actually gameplan, harden has historically struggled

because he isn't MJ or LeBron. And anytime you go iso, it's far easier for the defense, they don't need to play as a team, only hold up 1 guy and keep on shooters.

My response "easiest" was that iso is easy to identify as a fan, player, coach, etc.

Rivera
01-07-2019, 12:36 PM
Off subject but Rockets trades MCW and bulls waived marshon brooks. Houston should pick him up. Can be a nice piece off the bench for 10-15 min

Oefarmy2005
01-08-2019, 10:46 AM
Iím only getting mad at myself for continuing to have this idiot conversation. The guy has the highest Usage % by far in the league and he knows that guys slap at the ball when he drives with the ball out and he knows his step back three is unguardable yet guys still think that they can guard it. If other guys with his team usage% (theyíre arenít any) drove the lane with their hands out instead of cradled (there arenít any) didnít get the same calls? Thereíd be reason to get upset at the refs. Until there is, donít get mad at them for doing their job.

His step-back 3 is unguardable because he takes 3-4 steps every other time he takes it. If someone is allowed TWO more steps after picking up their dribble, why are you surprised that "no-one" can guard him? But, otherwise, like all other people have said, Harden is definitely a superstar in this ERA, but that doesn't mean much in this ERA, because of terrible rule changes that don't allow touching guards whatsoever, and the worst officiating I have ever seen in the NBA - all in the name of increasing the pace and "improving" the product. Refs are deathly afraid to use that whistle on crap that matters(traveling, carrying, double-dribbling) and instead focus on calling ticky-tacky barely-any contact shooting fouls and lose ball fouls that make ZERO sense to anyone else watching. This league is a shell of itself, but since the average IQ of the population watching this league has dropped by 20 points, it all works out.

Hawkeye15
01-08-2019, 11:12 AM
Saw the second half, impressive but its January. So who the **** cares when it's from someone who habitually degrades when the games matter most. If this were someone we didn't know, I'd get it. But we've seen this movie already. Heres hoping he FINALLY lives up to his billing because I've witnessed the harden experience in the loffs, its beyond underwhelming

Yep, pretty much exactly what I have expressed regarding Harden.

WaDe03
01-08-2019, 03:51 PM
Havenít been on in awhile and see a Harden over Wade take when I come back? This is embarrassing for the site.

Classic case of living in the moment.

Here you go:

1081227761233133569

https://www.instagram.com/p/BsRtZn6npSW/?utm_source=ig_share_sheet&igshid=7f1hsu1rtxes

Hope those links work. Wades been doing this and was an elite defender with a FMVP and 3 championships. Harden isnít topping that.

WaDe03
01-08-2019, 03:51 PM
But to answer the thread, yes heís a superstar. Heís ****ing unreal.

Hawkeye15
01-08-2019, 03:53 PM
Wade's 2006 postseason run is just such a difference maker no matter how long Harden keeps this up. Unless Harden can get rid of his playoff demons. Factor in defense, and I really can't be sold that Harden has any case of being as good or better than Wade.

Chronz
01-09-2019, 06:06 PM
Never mind. I'm not going to let this get more heated than it needs to be. Let's just suffice it to say we agree to disagree, chronz. Wade has the edge now, but if things continue on this trajectory, he won't by the time Harden retires.

If you're trying not to to get banned, just PM me the rebuttal

Chronz
01-09-2019, 06:08 PM
Oh, actually I DO care about significant moments,i think they def carry weight. However I don't think they are the entirety of a players evaluation. Harden has been a top 3 mvp candidate for 3 years now, he is heavily leaned on in arguably the most efficient offense in nba history, at worst a top 5. He is a 6 7 (or something) shooting guard who plays a lot of point and is one of the best in the league at it. This is a league with curry, kyrie, dame... That position ain't no slouch.

I can't see anyones logic that dictate him anything less than a superstar. Losing in the playoffs doesn't automatically take that title from someone IMO

If your standards are based on kyrie and Dame, I could see why you would be tricked into thinking of harden as a superstar, historically speaking

Chronz
01-09-2019, 06:09 PM
Oh, actually I DO care about significant moments,i think they def carry weight. However I don't think they are the entirety of a players evaluation. Harden has been a top 3 mvp candidate for 3 years now, he is heavily leaned on in arguably the most efficient offense in nba history, at worst a top 5. He is a 6 7 (or something) shooting guard who plays a lot of point and is one of the best in the league at it. This is a league with curry, kyrie, dame... That position ain't no slouch.

I can't see anyones logic that dictate him anything less than a superstar. Losing in the playoffs doesn't automatically take that title from someone IMO

Ps, what did you make of Draymond opinion on how you can or can't play defense today?

Chronz
01-09-2019, 06:09 PM
because he isn't MJ or LeBron. And anytime you go iso, it's far easier for the defense, they don't need to play as a team, only hold up 1 guy and keep on shooters.

My response "easiest" was that iso is easy to identify as a fan, player, coach, etc.

Remember how we used to shat on iso joe

Chronz
01-09-2019, 06:10 PM
His step-back 3 is unguardable because he takes 3-4 steps every other time he takes it. If someone is allowed TWO more steps after picking up their dribble, why are you surprised that "no-one" can guard him? But, otherwise, like all other people have said, Harden is definitely a superstar in this ERA, but that doesn't mean much in this ERA, because of terrible rule changes that don't allow touching guards whatsoever, and the worst officiating I have ever seen in the NBA - all in the name of increasing the pace and "improving" the product. Refs are deathly afraid to use that whistle on crap that matters(traveling, carrying, double-dribbling) and instead focus on calling ticky-tacky barely-any contact shooting fouls and lose ball fouls that make ZERO sense to anyone else watching. This league is a shell of itself, but since the average IQ of the population watching this league has dropped by 20 points, it all works out.

Hard.

Chronz
01-09-2019, 06:11 PM
Havenít been on in awhile and see a Harden over Wade take when I come back? This is embarrassing for the site.

Classic case of living in the moment.

Here you go:

1081227761233133569

https://www.instagram.com/p/BsRtZn6npSW/?utm_source=ig_share_sheet&igshid=7f1hsu1rtxes

Hope those links work. Wades been doing this and was an elite defender with a FMVP and 3 championships. Harden isnít topping that.

Should've posted the superior efficiency despite harsher environment iirc

Chronz
01-09-2019, 06:14 PM
Wade's 2006 postseason run is just such a difference maker no matter how long Harden keeps this up. Unless Harden can get rid of his playoff demons. Factor in defense, and I really can't be sold that Harden has any case of being as good or better than Wade.

It's too late. If bron can't catch mj, how the **** do you ever justify a multiple time choker like harden over the man lebron let down? This with the easiest of roles. Rookie wade had a better sense of the moment than any harden game.

mightybosstone
01-09-2019, 06:32 PM
If you're trying not to to get banned, just PM me the rebuttal

Deleted it. It was a novel, and I was letting myself get angry. No reason for it. We're two adults with differing opinions, and that's OK.

Chronz
01-09-2019, 06:35 PM
Deleted it. It was a novel, and I was letting myself get angry. No reason for it. We're two adults with differing opinions, and that's OK.

You've never had a lengthy post not actually post? Ive had that happen so frequently I make sure to copy the text just in case.

Anyways just answer this, where exactly is harden historically for you.

Chronz
01-09-2019, 06:37 PM
But to answer the thread, yes heís a superstar. Heís ****ing unreal.

I think he's become one but I remember thinking that years ago

mightybosstone
01-09-2019, 06:41 PM
If you haven't read it yet, there was a fantastic article on ESPN breaking down what Harden's doing this season and how unique his offensive game is: http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/25714487/james-harden-dominance-unprecedented-undeniable

My favorite part of the piece is in the first few paragraphs when Goldsberry compares what Harden does to elite big men and how they dominated 1 on 1 in the post:


The most important one-on-one advantages used to occur in the low post when bigger, stronger dudes could outmuscle defenders en route to easy interior buckets. But in the post-handcheck, switch-happy NBA, Professor Harden is teaching us that they now occur on the perimeter, when a faster, more nimble ball handler can isolate and outmaneuver a slower defender. Houston's iso-happy offense is Exhibit A.

To watch Rockets basketball in 2019 is to watch one man dribble and dance with his defender at the top of the arc while the eight other players loiter around the edges of the scoring area. It's not breathtaking, but it's brilliant, and conceptually familiar. Isolating mismatches is classic basketball; just ask George Mikan, Bill Russell, Chamberlain, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar or Shaquille O'Neal, who all dominated the league going to work on the low block.

Instead of tossing it down to the big man and letting him go to work, Houston sets a screen to get Harden a mismatch and lets him go to work.

If you think about it, it actually makes total sense. Guys like Kareem, Wilt, Shaq and Dream got the ball and dominated their man to manufacture efficient points, and their entire offense was built around that idea. What Harden does is not dissimilar in that regard, he's just doing it 25 feet from the basket. And his step back is Kareem's "Skyhook" or Hakeem's "Dream shake"óa dominant go-to offensive move that's the trump card of the elite player's offensive repertoire.

mightybosstone
01-09-2019, 06:57 PM
You've never had a lengthy post not actually post? Ive had that happen so frequently I make sure to copy the text just in case.
Yeah, it's happened to me before, and I thought about saving it just in case. But it wasn't worth it. We'd just keep spinning our wheels. Our argument just boils down to you thinking Harden could never pass Wade without exercising his postseason demons and me thinking he could based solely on absurd regular season production, competent postseason play and a much longer, more consistent peak/prime.


Anyways just answer this, where exactly is harden historically for you.

Without doing a ton of analysis, I'd say he's somewhere in the top 40-50 for me right now if he retires tomorrow. He's an MVP whose peak rivals the best of his position, who has stayed remarkably healthy and who has been a top 5 player in the league for a good 4-5 seasons.

If he continues on this path, never overcomes the postseason failure moniker but continues to put up ridiculous regular season numbers with competent postseason stats for another 4-5 years with a couple of quality veteran seasons at the end, he's probably going to finish toward the top 10-20 in a lot of historical categories (points, assists, steals, 3s, etc.) and could potentially have multiple MVPs. I think that puts him somewhere in the top 20-25 discussion. If Malone essentially did the same thing, but with poorer peak numbers and worse postseason numbers, why can't Harden?

Finally, if he DOES exercise the playoff demons through winning a ring or just playing better in the playoffs overall, I don't see why he can't be in that top 15 conversation. Consider that Oscar is typically listed in the top 15, that Harden's advanced numbers (regular and postseason) are better or on par and that Oscar's only title was as a clear No. 2 on a team with peak Kareem. I don't see why Harden couldn't be in that same conversation.

smith&wesson
01-09-2019, 07:33 PM
Lol is harden a super star ?? Cmon man

buckalis
01-10-2019, 07:59 PM
Lol is harden a super star ?? Cmon man

One must be really, I mean really stupid to ask such a "question"... isn't he?

FlashBolt
01-10-2019, 08:51 PM
Harden's stretch has been dominant but lets not act like other superstar elite players haven't generated insane stretches.

LeBron in 2012 averaged 30 points on 63% shooting in a 14 game stretch. Heat were 13-1 during that stretch and won their games by an average of 13 points. Back then, 13 points was a lot to win by.

Durant had a stretch of 37 points per game on 61% shooting in 2014.

Harden's taking an insane amount of shots. Granted, his team needs him to but I'm not going to sit here and pretend that Durant, Curry, and LeBron wouldn't have absolutely smashed the scoring streaks if they averaged 26 shots per game like Harden has since their win at Portland.

Saddletramp
01-10-2019, 09:42 PM
Harden's stretch has been dominant but lets not act like other superstar elite players haven't generated insane stretches.

LeBron in 2012 averaged 30 points on 63% shooting in a 14 game stretch. Heat were 13-1 during that stretch and won their games by an average of 13 points. Back then, 13 points was a lot to win by.

Durant had a stretch of 37 points per game on 61% shooting in 2014.

Harden's taking an insane amount of shots. Granted, his team needs him to but I'm not going to sit here and pretend that Durant, Curry, and LeBron wouldn't have absolutely smashed the scoring streaks if they averaged 26 shots per game like Harden has since their win at Portland.

So you think heís an elite superstar. Gotcha.

FlashBolt
01-10-2019, 10:55 PM
So you think heís an elite superstar. Gotcha.

I guess you still have difficulty reading.

Saddletramp
01-10-2019, 11:06 PM
I guess you still have difficulty reading.

Oh, you already said he was a superstar? Missed that post. My bad.