PDA

View Full Version : Luka Doncic vs Ben Simmons: Who do you choose?



Pages : [1] 2

FlashBolt
12-27-2018, 11:56 AM
Going with Luka here strictly because of his ability to shoot but I would entertain some Ben Simmons arguments.

GREATNESS ONE
12-27-2018, 12:13 PM
Luka

Alayla
12-27-2018, 12:19 PM
It's closer than it looks but Luka is the safer choice.

warfelg
12-27-2018, 12:21 PM
Very different players in almost everything.

Luka is a better shooter, better half court player, and better with ball protection.

Ben is a better athlete, better fast break, better rebounder, better defender.

Rivera
12-27-2018, 12:22 PM
It's closer than it looks but Luka is the safer choice.

how i see it as well. very very close. but i can trust Luka in the 4th qtr more than I can trust Ben. Thats my tiebreaker

Hustla23
12-27-2018, 12:31 PM
Um, the guy who can shoot and doesn't get guarded from 20 feet out? Luke and it's not even close.

tredigs
12-27-2018, 12:41 PM
Ben is a point guard who you have to make damn sure does NOT have the ball in his hands in an important possession (in case he is fouled or the D lags and he has to take a shot). Simmons threw up an awkward deep 2 at the end of the shot clock earlier this week and it was literally the deepest shot he has ever made (per stat tracker).

Anyway, yeah lol, ill take the young/budding superstar over the massive liability.

FlashBolt
12-27-2018, 12:51 PM
Very different players in almost everything.

Luka is a better shooter, better half court player, and better with ball protection.

Ben is a better athlete, better fast break, better rebounder, better defender.

While true, Ben has the luxury of playing with Embiid. You would think Luka would be racking up much more assists and lead the fast break better if he had Ben's teammates. Luka's game simply translates better, IMO. Ben's inability or lack of shooting just makes this an easier decision. Better athlete, meh, I think Luka craftiness makes up for that.

Giannis94
12-27-2018, 01:02 PM
Luka.

Next thread: Who would you choose: Shaq or Giannis

warfelg
12-27-2018, 01:05 PM
While true, Ben has the luxury of playing with Embiid. You would think Luka would be racking up much more assists and lead the fast break better if he had Ben's teammates. Luka's game simply translates better, IMO. Ben's inability or lack of shooting just makes this an easier decision. Better athlete, meh, I think Luka craftiness makes up for that.

I don't think so, because one of the few knocks on Luka coming over was his fast break game wasn't the greatest since he wasn't a great athlete (compared to NBA players of course). I also think you are really underrating Ben's ability to be crafty as well. The only reason Luka's game 'translates' better is because of the shot.

Me personally --- I think the backlash on Ben has almost gone too far TBH. And not trying to homer it up since I do admit there are many things he needs to work on. But I always put it last year this way with Ben: He's consistently going to have 'effort' be a 'knock' because he can make really difficult things look easy because of his size and speed.

GREATNESS ONE
12-27-2018, 01:07 PM
While true, Ben has the luxury of playing with Embiid. You would think Luka would be racking up much more assists and lead the fast break better if he had Ben's teammates. Luka's game simply translates better, IMO. Ben's inability or lack of shooting just makes this an easier decision. Better athlete, meh, I think Luka craftiness makes up for that.

Man, if Embiid has a legit scoring threat around him... no knock on Simmons but heís like a young Bron and you have to surround him with shooters..

GREATNESS ONE
12-27-2018, 01:07 PM
Luka.

Next thread: Who would you choose: Shaq or Giannis

Easily Shaq. Thatís a silly question.


More like

Embiid or Giannis

GREATNESS ONE
12-27-2018, 01:08 PM
I mean Ben is in his 3rd year now...

warfelg
12-27-2018, 01:12 PM
I mean Ben is in his 3rd year now...

And one thing with Ben, this past summer he openly admitted that he never learned to shoot because he never had too. He was big enough, athletic enough, and strong enough at lower levels to get to the rim whenever he wanted to. So he said this process of learning how to shoot has been tough at times, still doesn't feel 100% comfortable with it. Be Detrich pointed out too that when you watch him in warmups and in the gym, the elbows are tucked in, and has the good motion to it. Then in game, while not as bad as last year, it's not looking quite as bad as last year.

Hawkeye15
12-27-2018, 01:12 PM
Luka for me, despite the playmaking ability of Simmons. His shot is such a liability man

Giannis94
12-27-2018, 01:13 PM
Luka shouldn't win ROY because he played professionally in Europe! Amirite or amirite?

GREATNESS ONE
12-27-2018, 01:16 PM
And one thing with Ben, this past summer he openly admitted that he never learned to shoot because he never had too. He was big enough, athletic enough, and strong enough at lower levels to get to the rim whenever he wanted to. So he said this process of learning how to shoot has been tough at times, still doesn't feel 100% comfortable with it. Be Detrich pointed out too that when you watch him in warmups and in the gym, the elbows are tucked in, and has the good motion to it. Then in game, while not as bad as last year, it's not looking quite as bad as last year.


I hate that he thinks he doesnít need to be able to shoot...

warfelg
12-27-2018, 01:18 PM
I hate that he thinks he doesnít need to be able to shoot...

No he knows he needs to shoot. He said no one on the court forced him into a position that he had to before reaching the NBA so he didnít put much time into it because finishing/handle/passing was much more important.

GREATNESS ONE
12-27-2018, 01:23 PM
No he knows he needs to shoot. He said no one on the court forced him into a position that he had to before reaching the NBA so he didnít put much time into it because finishing/handle/passing was much more important.

It just sucks that he doesnít look like heís even putting in the work... hoping he can figure it out... at least a hook shot lol

TrueFan420
12-27-2018, 01:39 PM
It just sucks that he doesnít look like heís even putting in the work... hoping he can figure it out... at least a hook shot lol

I think he is but he still isnít comfertable with it so he doesnít want to try it in game. I suspect next year we will see marked improvement in his shot. Not great but improvement. He doesnít need to be a great shooter with his skill set. Just a decent one that knows when he has to take a shot to keep the defense honest.

warfelg
12-27-2018, 01:41 PM
It just sucks that he doesnít look like heís even putting in the work... hoping he can figure it out... at least a hook shot lol

Did you read anything? He's putting in the work. Doing it in an empty gym is different from in game.

Chronz
12-27-2018, 01:43 PM
Man, if Embiid has a legit scoring threat around him... no knock on Simmons but heís like a young Bron and you have to surround him with shooters..
Young bron?lmfao. Nothing like him, maybe a young grant hill but you undersell just how awful his shooting is. Young bron could still take over from the perimeter it's actually Embiid who needs the shooters

warfelg
12-27-2018, 01:43 PM
I think he is but he still isnít comfertable with it so he doesnít want to try it in game. I suspect next year we will see marked improvement in his shot. Not great but improvement. He doesnít need to be a great shooter with his skill set. Just a decent one that knows when he has to take a shot to keep the defense honest.

And this is what I've always said about him. He doesn't need to be a great shooter. Even 25-30% from 3, 35-45% from 10-3point would keep a defense off balance enough. And that's where LeBron has been most his career. I think the big difference is Ben needs to get to 60-65% up to 75% from the charity stripe to keep the pressure on when he goes to the hole.

GREATNESS ONE
12-27-2018, 01:50 PM
Young bron?lmfao. Nothing like him, maybe a young grant hill but you undersell just how awful his shooting is. Young bron could still take over from the perimeter it's actually Embiid who needs the shooters

I think Embiid needs legit scorers, a player like Kyrie would be sexy with embiid... yea I meant young Bron Iím not being able to shoot and the way he attacks the basket... he desperately needs shooters around him..

GREATNESS ONE
12-27-2018, 01:51 PM
Did you read anything? He's putting in the work. Doing it in an empty gym is different from in game.

Yea, I did. Still waiting to see results. Sorry, some dude on PSD telling me Ben sSimmons is working on his shot is completely different from what weíre seeing.

FlashBolt
12-27-2018, 01:52 PM
I don't think so, because one of the few knocks on Luka coming over was his fast break game wasn't the greatest since he wasn't a great athlete (compared to NBA players of course). I also think you are really underrating Ben's ability to be crafty as well. The only reason Luka's game 'translates' better is because of the shot.

Me personally --- I think the backlash on Ben has almost gone too far TBH. And not trying to homer it up since I do admit there are many things he needs to work on. But I always put it last year this way with Ben: He's consistently going to have 'effort' be a 'knock' because he can make really difficult things look easy because of his size and speed.

It's tough for Ben to be crafty because everyone knows he's going to pass the ball. Luka can pass or shoot it. That ability leads to better opportunities for the team, honestly. Luka has been asked to close out a lot of close games and he's done quite well. Ben, we know he's not shooting the ball anywhere past a few feet from the rim. His size and speed is unquestioned vs Luka but Luka isn't a 6 foot scrub. He's 6'7 and more than capable of doing what Ben can do in some aspects. There is nothing Ben can do offensively that Luka can't. I haven't seen it. I'm watching close Sixers games and all I see is Ben just playing hot potato with the ball knowing that if he can't get to the rim, he's burning time off the shotclock with the ball. Luka would be making plays whether it'd be a pass or taking the shot. Luka on Sixers? I think they're a better team than Ben on the Sixers.

GREATNESS ONE
12-27-2018, 01:53 PM
I think he is but he still isnít comfertable with it so he doesnít want to try it in game. I suspect next year we will see marked improvement in his shot. Not great but improvement. He doesnít need to be a great shooter with his skill set. Just a decent one that knows when he has to take a shot to keep the defense honest.

Sure, if you want your ceiling to be a fringe all star every year in the East.... but the kid can potebtially be one of the greatest players of all time with his skill set... heís got plenty of time to figure it out so hoping he puts in the work that results on the court.

FlashBolt
12-27-2018, 01:58 PM
And this is what I've always said about him. He doesn't need to be a great shooter. Even 25-30% from 3, 35-45% from 10-3point would keep a defense off balance enough. And that's where LeBron has been most his career. I think the big difference is Ben needs to get to 60-65% up to 75% from the charity stripe to keep the pressure on when he goes to the hole.

He'd be lucky to get 25-30% from 3 or even 35-45% from 10 to 3 point. It's not even comparable to LeBron. When LeBron began playing, it was tougher to score and it was uncommon for superstar players to shoot 50%+ from the field. Kobe, T-Macy, AI. Those guys weren't exactly efficient shot makers compared to what we have today. LeBron took more shots from far, made a higher %, and was just a better overall player. Not even comparable to Ben at all. Ben is like a taller Westbrook.

Mr.B
12-27-2018, 01:58 PM
I don't think so, because one of the few knocks on Luka coming over was his fast break game wasn't the greatest since he wasn't a great athlete (compared to NBA players of course). I also think you are really underrating Ben's ability to be crafty as well. The only reason Luka's game 'translates' better is because of the shot.

Me personally --- I think the backlash on Ben has almost gone too far TBH. And not trying to homer it up since I do admit there are many things he needs to work on. But I always put it last year this way with Ben: He's consistently going to have 'effort' be a 'knock' because he can make really difficult things look easy because of his size and speed.

Luka may not have the end to end speed that Simmons does or may not be an above the rim type of player but heís actually very good at running the fast break.

warfelg
12-27-2018, 02:02 PM
Luka may not have the end to end speed that Simmons does or may not be an above the rim type of player but heís actually very good at running the fast break.

Don't disagree at all. Just pointing out it was one of the questions on him.

FlashBolt
12-27-2018, 02:04 PM
Don't disagree at all. Just pointing out it was one of the questions on him.

Questions by who, though? I've seen clips of him running the fastbreak even during the EuroLeague days. Obviously Ben's speed and athleticism can get him from point A to the rim quicker but Luka can do a very good job as well.

warfelg
12-27-2018, 02:05 PM
Yea, I did. Still waiting to see results. Sorry, some dude on PSD telling me Ben sSimmons is working on his shot is completely different from what weíre seeing.

http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/sixers/ben-simmons-sixers-jump-shot-brother-liam-simmons-working-20180918.html

MILLERHIGHLIFE
12-27-2018, 02:30 PM
Luka easily as of now. But if Simmons can start raining threes like Reggie Miller/Ray Allen/Larry Bird/Michael Redd. Then Simmons. But as of today since i'm that guy saying what have you done for me lately when it comes to trades. I pick Luka as a keeper. I would of traded Simmons for Kawhi.

Hawkeye15
12-27-2018, 03:06 PM
No he knows he needs to shoot. He said no one on the court forced him into a position that he had to before reaching the NBA so he didnít put much time into it because finishing/handle/passing was much more important.

any youth who is really big and can handle the ball rarely learns to shoot until a higher level. No point in learning to shoot when you can get layups all night long.

warfelg
12-27-2018, 03:31 PM
any youth who is really big and can handle the ball rarely learns to shoot until a higher level. No point in learning to shoot when you can get layups all night long.

Which is pretty much what Ben experienced.

FlashBolt
12-27-2018, 03:34 PM
any youth who is really big and can handle the ball rarely learns to shoot until a higher level. No point in learning to shoot when you can get layups all night long.

That's not true at all. We're seeing more bigs develop a shot. In Ben's case, sure, he has Embiid who he can rely on to score so he's a willing facilitator but we saw what Celtics did to Ben in the playoffs enough to where people started talking about Tatum>Ben despite Ben having a better year. If Ben is to handle the ball for that many possessions, he's got to learn to be a dual threat scoring the ball as well. And by that, I mean be more versatile. For Christ's sake, he can't even hit FT's...

Scoots
12-27-2018, 03:44 PM
Luka

GREATNESS ONE
12-27-2018, 03:55 PM
http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/sixers/ben-simmons-sixers-jump-shot-brother-liam-simmons-working-20180918.html

Lmfao stop bro, donít show me some **** from Sept 2018...

Mr.B
12-27-2018, 04:10 PM
any youth who is really big and can handle the ball rarely learns to shoot until a higher level. No point in learning to shoot when you can get layups all night long.

Actually there is every reason to learn to shoot at a younger age. The problem is they usually have coaches and people in their corner telling them they donít.

Switch
12-27-2018, 04:13 PM
any youth who is really big and can handle the ball rarely learns to shoot until a higher level. No point in learning to shoot when you can get layups all night long.What a terrible take

You need to be able to shoot to be great. Especially in today's NBA

Hawkeye15
12-27-2018, 04:39 PM
That's not true at all. We're seeing more bigs develop a shot. In Ben's case, sure, he has Embiid who he can rely on to score so he's a willing facilitator but we saw what Celtics did to Ben in the playoffs enough to where people started talking about Tatum>Ben despite Ben having a better year. If Ben is to handle the ball for that many possessions, he's got to learn to be a dual threat scoring the ball as well. And by that, I mean be more versatile. For Christ's sake, he can't even hit FT's...

My point is, when criticizing Simmons, we need to remember-he never needed a jumper. Ever. It's not uncommon.

Hawkeye15
12-27-2018, 04:40 PM
What a terrible take

You need to be able to shoot to be great. Especially in today's NBA

but you don't in high school or college, when you are tall, and can handle like a guard. Hell that in itself is a skill set most don't have. Shooting can be learned. Being 6'9" with guard skills can't. Hence why Simmons was a lottery pick and ROY without a J...

Hawkeye15
12-27-2018, 04:40 PM
Actually there is every reason to learn to shoot at a younger age. The problem is they usually have coaches and people in their corner telling them they donít.

repeating myself here, but at 17, did you go up against a 6'9" guy who can break you down off the dribble? I doubt it

name of the game is get the easiest shot possible. Layups are easy.

Now you would hope somewhere along the way a coach reached out and told him how important a jumper is. But youth coaches usually jizz their pants when a talent like Simmons lands on them, and tend to not mess with what makes them great.

Rivera
12-27-2018, 04:47 PM
My point is, when criticizing Simmons, we need to remember-he never needed a jumper. Ever. It's not uncommon.

BS there are plenty of bigs in the NBA today who learned how to shoot when they didnt need to because they were bigger and more athletic than their competition. He didnt feel a need to work on it and thats on him. If that was the case, I could give almost any player in the league a pass "because they didnt need to learn it at the time"

plenty of bigs learned how to shoot, Ben isnt special, he decided to try and coast off his athletic gifts because its not like he has a great post game to take advantage of his height. Sounds like hes lazy and entitled to me for the fact that he never decided to work on his jumper or even improve his post game since hes bigger than anyone

Rivera
12-27-2018, 04:51 PM
but you don't in high school or college, when you are tall, and can handle like a guard. Hell that in itself is a skill set most don't have. Shooting can be learned. Being 6'9" with guard skills can't. Hence why Simmons was a lottery pick and ROY without a J...

then why can Zion who is much more of an atheltic freak than Ben Simmons, why does he take a jumpshot or two? hes a far more respected jumper than Ben. Zion is bigger, more explosive, a much more gifted athlete than Ben. He could of coasted on his bulk and athleticism and bully everyone for easy baskets and dunks down low. Hes the 2nd heaviest player in the NBA right now! He doesnt need a jumper. But Zion chose to improve and round his game because he wanted to be better and known for more than a dunker. Zion isnt afraid to take a Jumper or two and he already commands more respect 18 feet from the basket than Ben

No one is asking Ben to be 40% from 3pt line. We are asking for him to improve his shooting enough to make the defense respect it and not to be such a liability down the stretch of tight games

Hawkeye15
12-27-2018, 05:04 PM
I am not saying Ben doesn't need a jumper. I am saying, guys who are bigger, stronger, and can get to the rim at will as a kid typically don't need a jumper to dominate. Eventually, when you reach the NBA, you need it.

What other guys his size have we seen at such a young age with his skillset? The list is VERY short.

His jumper is a concern, yes. But guys learning how to shoot is easier than learning how to be huge and dribble like a PG. Cmon

PAOboston
12-27-2018, 05:07 PM
The guy who isnít a coward


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

warfelg
12-27-2018, 05:22 PM
I am not saying Ben doesn't need a jumper. I am saying, guys who are bigger, stronger, and can get to the rim at will as a kid typically don't need a jumper to dominate. Eventually, when you reach the NBA, you need it.

What other guys his size have we seen at such a young age with his skillset? The list is VERY short.

His jumper is a concern, yes. But guys learning how to shoot is easier than learning how to be huge and dribble like a PG. Cmon

Itís like I said: The backlash on Ben has gone almost too far.

Rivera
12-27-2018, 05:26 PM
I am not saying Ben doesn't need a jumper. I am saying, guys who are bigger, stronger, and can get to the rim at will as a kid typically don't need a jumper to dominate. Eventually, when you reach the NBA, you need it.

What other guys his size have we seen at such a young age with his skillset? The list is VERY short.

His jumper is a concern, yes. But guys learning how to shoot is easier than learning how to be huge and dribble like a PG. Cmon

thats an excuse. so what if he didnt need it when he was younger. he didnt even try to improve it to the point where he feels comfortable taking one in a game. he could have the best skill set ever, but hes a liability in the 4th until he fixes his biggest issue. How great is he really when his team cant depend on him in the games biggest moments? Ben has gotten to the point where the 76ers should bench him tight in close games when the money is on the line until he learns

no one said his skill set isnt wonderful, dude is amazing. but if he was always bigger than anyone, why didnt he learn how to do a hook? why didnt he learn anything in the post? he had a whole year off at LSU and when he got hurt. I imagined he practiced it but im starting to wonder if he practiced or cared enough about his jumper to really round up to his potential as one of the best players in the league

Rivera
12-27-2018, 05:28 PM
Itís like I said: The backlash on Ben has gone almost too far.

because everyone said ben is terrible :rolleyes:

ben is the only player i know thats allowed for him not to shoot because hes 6 10 and can handle like a PG and he didnt "need to learn how to shoot because hes bigger than everyone"

Fultz is the only player i know we make excuses for because "he didnt surround himself with the right people"


seriously you act like we say hes useless and complete garbage. no one has taken anything to far or hasnt said anything that isnt factual about his shooting or lack there of.

Ben is great for 3 and a half quarters. once its 5 min left and its a tight game, hes useless

Rivera
12-27-2018, 05:31 PM
its funny because the same person defending ben for his lack of shooting and making excuses for him, is the same person who used to criticize rondo for not being able to shoot and only showing up for prime time games (which were all valid and still valid) but yet Ben gets a pass because hes 6'10 and can handle like a PG

we know his skill set and how good he is. But he or the 76ers will never reach their max potential until Ben is a threat in the half court

stop it.

Rivera
12-27-2018, 05:36 PM
the funny thing is, Giannis is starting to get the same criticism about his lack of shooting and how it hurts the bucks down the strech of games. The reason Giannis doesnt get as much criticism as Ben is Giannis isnt afraid to take a mid range jumper and he can really finish around the basket. Ben isnt as good as Giannis as far as finishing around the rim yet and he isnt as strong as Giannis either. and Ben is afraid to shoot. If he literally followed the Giannis play book and used his supreme skill set, he and the 76ers wouldnt have such an issue to fight to give them that much better of a chance for a championship

until then, Ben and the 76ers have a ceiling unless Brown grows a pair, and benches Ben in close tight games in the 4th qtr. They should have been using Ben as an offense/defense switch down the strech but I get that Brett wants to build Bens confidence and not break it, i get it

TheDish87
12-27-2018, 05:45 PM
then why can Zion who is much more of an atheltic freak than Ben Simmons, why does he take a jumpshot or two? hes a far more respected jumper than Ben. Zion is bigger, more explosive, a much more gifted athlete than Ben. He could of coasted on his bulk and athleticism and bully everyone for easy baskets and dunks down low. Hes the 2nd heaviest player in the NBA right now! He doesnt need a jumper. But Zion chose to improve and round his game because he wanted to be better and known for more than a dunker. Zion isnt afraid to take a Jumper or two and he already commands more respect 18 feet from the basket than Ben

No one is asking Ben to be 40% from 3pt line. We are asking for him to improve his shooting enough to make the defense respect it and not to be such a liability down the stretch of tight games

what you are missing with this is Ben went to LSU (as a favor) to coast while Zion went to Duke to learn from an all time great.

TheDish87
12-27-2018, 05:47 PM
the funny thing is, Giannis is starting to get the same criticism about his lack of shooting and how it hurts the bucks down the strech of games. The reason Giannis doesnt get as much criticism as Ben is Giannis isnt afraid to take a mid range jumper and he can really finish around the basket. Ben isnt as good as Giannis as far as finishing around the rim yet and he isnt as strong as Giannis either. and Ben is afraid to shoot. If he literally followed the Giannis play book and used his supreme skill set, he and the 76ers wouldnt have such an issue to fight to give them that much better of a chance for a championship

until then, Ben and the 76ers have a ceiling unless Brown grows a pair, and benches Ben in close tight games in the 4th qtr. They should have been using Ben as an offense/defense switch down the strech but I get that Brett wants to build Bens confidence and not break it, i get it

id rather Ben just not shoot if hes gonna have shooting numbers like Giannis.

Hawkeye15
12-27-2018, 06:13 PM
thats an excuse. so what if he didnt need it when he was younger. he didnt even try to improve it to the point where he feels comfortable taking one in a game. he could have the best skill set ever, but hes a liability in the 4th until he fixes his biggest issue. How great is he really when his team cant depend on him in the games biggest moments? Ben has gotten to the point where the 76ers should bench him tight in close games when the money is on the line until he learns

no one said his skill set isnt wonderful, dude is amazing. but if he was always bigger than anyone, why didnt he learn how to do a hook? why didnt he learn anything in the post? he had a whole year off at LSU and when he got hurt. I imagined he practiced it but im starting to wonder if he practiced or cared enough about his jumper to really round up to his potential as one of the best players in the league

He was STILL able to dominate as a rookie, despite never shooting outside 8 feet.

Yes, he needs to develop a jumper to become elite in the NBA. The dude is 20. If he still can't shoot a lick in 3 years, we can talk about it again.

He didn't learn how to shoot because he didn't need to. Some people struggle with shooting, and concentrate elsewhere. His time has run up as far as getting away with it. Again, let's see what happens.

Hawkeye15
12-27-2018, 06:14 PM
Itís like I said: The backlash on Ben has gone almost too far.

give me Simmons skills/impact from a 20 year old over a shooter anyday. Shooting can be learned. Having PG skills in a 6'9" can't.

R. Johnson#3
12-27-2018, 06:44 PM
I'll take Luka. Like others have said, it's not a runaway, for now at least. If Simmons doesn't develop a jumpshot in the next 3 years then what we're seeing now is the final product. As for Luka, there hasn't been a rookie with as much game as Luka in a while. He's only going to get better while he grows bigger and stronger.

I'd be shocked if Luka's game doesn't develop even more over the next 3 years. Even more shocked than if Simmons developed a jumper.

Rivera
12-27-2018, 06:45 PM
what you are missing with this is Ben went to LSU (as a favor) to coast while Zion went to Duke to learn from an all time great.

so as a favor, he couldnt work in the gym and not learn how to shoot or practice shooting? Zion was shooting before Coach K. Try again and try harder


He was STILL able to dominate as a rookie, despite never shooting outside 8 feet.

Yes, he needs to develop a jumper to become elite in the NBA. The dude is 20. If he still can't shoot a lick in 3 years, we can talk about it again.

He didn't learn how to shoot because he didn't need to. Some people struggle with shooting, and concentrate elsewhere. His time has run up as far as getting away with it. Again, let's see what happens.

no one has said anything bad about ben but his lack of shooting. no one has said anything bad about his defense, his playmaking etc, only his shot. Ben can still have a huge impact on any game. He doesnt know yet how to control the game and tempo like Rondo can but he will get there. The fact that he flat out refuses to shoot has been concerning and will be the main reason the 76ers cannot fulfill their promise. He might be only "20" but with the Butler move, the 76ers think they can contend for a chip now because they have 3 stars.

Hes in effective driving because he can get sent to the line. He doesnt have any real post moves despite "being bigger than everyone when he was younger" he doesnt have any feel scoring the ball. And no one would say a word if lets say, Jonathan Isaac from the Magic had the same exact skill set because he isnt a star or projected to be a star. Ben has been followed as a young lebron when he was a HS and had high expectations like LBJ before he even step foot in college none the less the NBA. Because hes such a high profile, hes going to get scrutinized and his lack of shooting will prevent the 76ers from winning a chip, and we will see the team Ben has around him if he ever learned to shoot.

I wouldnt be concerend if he wasnt a star and just a role player, I wouldnt be concerned if the 76ers didnt have the peices to make a run at the title. They do have all the pieces needed to make a run. Ben will prevent it because hes just ineffective in any close game down late

at least those who struggled to shoot early on (for example, Kidd/Rondo) they at least shot to keep the defense honest and make them guard them from farther out. Ben doesnt even try.

And shooting im starting to believe can only be improved so much, especially quickly. It took Kidd years like the 2nd half of his career to be a consistent shooter. Tony Allen never became a consistent shooter. Mudiay currently still isnt a consistent shooter. There are plenty of examples throughout NBA history for those who cant shoot only improve soo much. And all i ever asked for was Ben to shoot 18 feet away to expand his game, make defenses respect him, give him and the 76ers more spacing

i swear you and war think we say we need Ben to be a 40-45%3pt shooter and shoot 10 3s a game which no one ever said. If he can become a 32-33% 3pt shooter and shoot 1-2 a game so defenses have to respect it, its going to open everything else in his offensive game

ewing
12-27-2018, 07:20 PM
Itís like I said: The backlash on Ben has gone almost too far.

I think I started it so it all good


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Raps08-09 Champ
12-27-2018, 07:23 PM
Luka. Both are goig to be superstars but Luka is going to be legit

zookman65
12-27-2018, 07:51 PM
Although Ben is a 3rd year Rookie I would go with Luka. Stories of not being athletic are highly over exaggerated. Luka's first step and explosive step back 3 appear plenty athletic for the game of basketball.

zookman65
12-27-2018, 07:54 PM
give me Simmons skills/impact from a 20 year old over a shooter anyday. Shooting can be learned. Having PG skills in a 6'9" can't.

I guess you actually havent seen Luka play as he is a point forward at 6'8" taking the ball up court and running the half court offense. Your assertion is not correct. Luka does have PG skills and to a higher degree than Simmons can shoot.

warfelg
12-27-2018, 08:16 PM
I guess you actually havent seen Luka play as he is a point forward at 6'8" taking the ball up court and running the half court offense. Your assertion is not correct. Luka does have PG skills and to a higher degree than Simmons can shoot.

I donít think heís talking over Luka.

I think heís talking take Simmons over a guy like Landry Shamet. Landry is a fan-****ing-tastic shooter, but will never have the impact Simmons has because he doesnít have the handle, court vision, athleticism, length to do the things Simmons can do.

More-Than-Most
12-27-2018, 09:22 PM
I am bens biggest critic but his upside to me makes this a no brainer... Play making 2 way athlete... Luka has a better shot but ben is better everywhere else and probably does more for a lesser team where is luka is probably better for a contender.

More-Than-Most
12-27-2018, 09:23 PM
Luka shouldn't win ROY because he played professionally in Europe! Amirite or amirite?

BOOM... Clearly this.

More-Than-Most
12-27-2018, 09:27 PM
Embiid helps but hurts Ben... On another team without Embiid ben would have more space to probably be better and or drive etc... If you put both Ben or Luka on a neutral team with their skill sets Ben would take that team further and could cause more problems... I am not talking years just skill sets... Ben has the far better skill set/athletic ability.... I feel like Ben on the mavs make them a better team but Luka on the sixers makes the sixers a better team

Jamiecballer
12-27-2018, 09:29 PM
I'd like to hear an example of an NBA player who isnt 'working on his shot'

Sent from my SM-A520W using Tapatalk

More-Than-Most
12-27-2018, 09:32 PM
I guess you actually havent seen Luka play as he is a point forward at 6'8" taking the ball up court and running the half court offense. Your assertion is not correct. Luka does have PG skills and to a higher degree than Simmons can shoot.

This is just a stupid take because you are just using PG skills... Ben also has the size of a PF/Center to play inside along with the athletism and his defensive ability is incredible.

Example- Ben simmons first year he was one of the better defensive players in the NBA where is Luka right now is a pretty big negative on defense.

More-Than-Most
12-27-2018, 09:37 PM
why do we ignore that side of the basketball? I am a huge lonzo ball hater because of his **** but he actually does make up for that with everything else as an example... Ben and Lonzo are 2 of the better defenders... Shooting is huge and i piss on ben daily because of it and because he plays like a nutless guy at times but size/passing/rebounding/DEFENDING/decision making all points to ben in his first year over Luka

More-Than-Most
12-27-2018, 09:43 PM
I actually feel disgusting arguing for bennifer but equality matters.

More-Than-Most
12-27-2018, 09:49 PM
I remember us having a similar discussion for wait for it... Donovan mitchell because of... Wait for it... Shooting lol.

warfelg
12-27-2018, 10:00 PM
I'd like to hear an example of an NBA player who isnt 'working on his shot'

Sent from my SM-A520W using Tapatalk

This clearly isn't working on his shot:
1078418867863543808

HandsOnTheWheel
12-27-2018, 10:08 PM
Luka by far

More-Than-Most
12-27-2018, 10:35 PM
The thing that bothers me is the overall idiocy behind shooting yet for the longest people still had Lebron above KD/Curry which he was/is. Every statistical output except 3 point shooting in the first year basically points to ben over Luka... Ben has the length/height/athletic ability/vision/defense where is luka has shooting range... Ben doesnt even force shots to hurt his team which he seems to get no credit for but whatever... I wish ben would shoot more even if it costs us because growth but again he literally does everything else that as long as he is working on it then so be it.


So besides shooting what exactly does luka have over been skill wise or stat wise in their first year? Per/Real Plus minus/stats/WS/Advanced stats and overall skill set all point to ben... The only thing that annoys me every year there is yet another young guy that we try to argue over Ben because they can shoot but literally do nothing else on his level.

Hawkeye15
12-27-2018, 10:50 PM
I guess you actually havent seen Luka play as he is a point forward at 6'8" taking the ball up court and running the half court offense. Your assertion is not correct. Luka does have PG skills and to a higher degree than Simmons can shoot.

Oh I picked Luka earlier in the thread but Simmons is sliding towards underrated here.

Hawkeye15
12-27-2018, 10:51 PM
I'd like to hear an example of an NBA player who isnt 'working on his shot'

Sent from my SM-A520W using Tapatalk

"Correcting it"

Giannis94
12-27-2018, 10:59 PM
Alright, next we need "Markelle Fultz vs. Tatum" thread. Who posts it

ewing
12-27-2018, 11:00 PM
why do we ignore that side of the basketball? I am a huge lonzo ball hater because of his **** but he actually does make up for that with everything else as an example... Ben and Lonzo are 2 of the better defenders... Shooting is huge and i piss on ben daily because of it and because he plays like a nutless guy at times but size/passing/rebounding/DEFENDING/decision making all points to ben in his first year over Luka

But they donít all point that way. Defending certainly does. I think you actually made some good post earlier in the thread about Joel actually limiting Ben and Luka contributing more in Philly and Ben potentially being able to do even more in Dallas. Ben needs to play with 4 perimeter shooters to be dominate.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

ewing
12-27-2018, 11:07 PM
The thing that bothers me is the overall idiocy behind shooting yet for the longest people still had Lebron above KD/Curry which he was/is. Every statistical output except 3 point shooting in the first year basically points to ben over Luka... Ben has the length/height/athletic ability/vision/defense where is luka has shooting range... Ben doesnt even force shots to hurt his team which he seems to get no credit for but whatever... I wish ben would shoot more even if it costs us because growth but again he literally does everything else that as long as he is working on it then so be it.


So besides shooting what exactly does luka have over been skill wise or stat wise in their first year? Per/Real Plus minus/stats/WS/Advanced stats and overall skill set all point to ben... The only thing that annoys me every year there is yet another young guy that we try to argue over Ben because they can shoot but literally do nothing else on his level.

He wonít get benched for TJ McConnell in big games because he has a hole so glaring that it inhibits everyone else on the floor. He is a ball handling guard who shares the floor with a 7í2 post center. He needs to make shots outside the paint. Its like arguing for an out fielder that can do everything but catch fly balls


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

More-Than-Most
12-27-2018, 11:45 PM
He wonít get benched for TJ McConnell in big games because he has a hole so glaring that it inhibits everyone else on the floor. He is a ball handling guard who shares the floor with a 7í2 post center. He needs to make shots outside the paint. Its like arguing for an out fielder that can do everything but catch fly balls


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

a better analogy would be an outfield who has limited range that cant get to certain balls but makes up for that area with his smartness throwing strength... But I dont disagree with you. Its all about the fit right now that hurts ben... His lack of shooting sucks but its even worse because he cant drive because of how much room embiid takes up and when they put ben inside and embiid outside his free throw shooting hurts so those 2 weaknesses with embiid gets magnified.


People forget ben is avg 16/9/8 on 57 percent shooting with great defense at his position. There is no argument for duncic in his first year over Ben and I cant see him making a massive stride to out perform ben in his 2nd season either. Neither is a bad choice though a glaring hole in duncic right now is his defense. He is a really poor defender

More-Than-Most
12-27-2018, 11:46 PM
also please trust me this isnt me being a homer... I have been beyond critical of bennifer this year.. I would rather he hurt us now by shooting as long as he is working on it over refusing to shoot.. it will cost us games but our seeding is pretty irrelevant... We need to evolve or we will lose regardless so progression/evolution is far better than regular season wins/losses... right now we cant beat good teams.

ewing
12-27-2018, 11:53 PM
a better analogy would be an outfield who has limited range that cant get to certain balls but makes up for that area with his smartness throwing strength... But I dont disagree with you. Its all about the fit right now that hurts ben... His lack of shooting sucks but its even worse because he cant drive because of how much room embiid takes up and when they put ben inside and embiid outside his free throw shooting hurts so those 2 weaknesses with embiid gets magnified.


People forget ben is avg 16/9/8 on 57 percent shooting with great defense at his position. There is no argument for duncic in his first year over Ben and I cant see him making a massive stride to out perform ben in his 2nd season either. Neither is a bad choice though a glaring hole in duncic right now is his defense. He is a really poor defender

you canít make up for things from the bench. The dude killed u verse Boston. It will happen again. Heís going to be good and terrible in the playoffs until he learns to shoot some


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

FlashBolt
12-28-2018, 12:10 AM
I am not saying Ben doesn't need a jumper. I am saying, guys who are bigger, stronger, and can get to the rim at will as a kid typically don't need a jumper to dominate. Eventually, when you reach the NBA, you need it.

What other guys his size have we seen at such a young age with his skillset? The list is VERY short.

His jumper is a concern, yes. But guys learning how to shoot is easier than learning how to be huge and dribble like a PG. Cmon

"My point is, when criticizing Simmons, we need to remember-he never needed a jumper. Ever. It's not uncommon. "

Post #41 by you.

He does need it. It's just not expected right now because he's still young and they aren't pictured to win an NBA title. When or if he does get a jumper, this changes the equation. Embiid is going to be dominant. Philly goes as far as Ben will take them.

FlashBolt
12-28-2018, 12:13 AM
Embiid helps but hurts Ben... On another team without Embiid ben would have more space to probably be better and or drive etc... If you put both Ben or Luka on a neutral team with their skill sets Ben would take that team further and could cause more problems... I am not talking years just skill sets... Ben has the far better skill set/athletic ability.... I feel like Ben on the mavs make them a better team but Luka on the sixers makes the sixers a better team

So we're going to pretend Ben doesn't get to the basket because Embiid gets more attention? Or the fact Ben gets some bonus assists because of Embiid? I mean, these aren't exactly things to ignore here. There is no question Philly has a better roster than the Mavericks right now.

FlashBolt
12-28-2018, 12:14 AM
This clearly isn't working on his shot:
1078418867863543808

He said he would work on it but wouldn't be shooting a lot this season before the season started. I'm curious as to what he was working on during the summer, then. His game won't really change in terms of passing, rebounding, or defending. It's the offensive side that will dictate where Ben's game goes from here on out. I said it his rookie season, if he can develop a jumpshot, there is no reason he can't be a top five NBA player at some point.

More-Than-Most
12-28-2018, 12:18 AM
So we're going to pretend Ben doesn't get to the basket because Embiid gets more attention? Or the fact Ben gets some bonus assists because of Embiid? I mean, these aren't exactly things to ignore here. There is no question Philly has a better roster than the Mavericks right now.

embiid eats up a ton of space and the ball stops with him a ton and that are 2 things that limits ben quite a bit... He 100 percent needs to shoot more though no doubt.

FlashBolt
12-28-2018, 12:25 AM
embiid eats up a ton of space and the ball stops with him a ton and that are 2 things that limits ben quite a bit... He 100 percent needs to shoot more though no doubt.

That's all it is right here. He needs to develop a shot to take his game to the next level. No one is going to care if he gets one more assist or rebound per game next season. They care about his FT%, 3P%, and outside shot.

More-Than-Most
12-28-2018, 12:43 AM
That's all it is right here. He needs to develop a shot to take his game to the next level. No one is going to care if he gets one more assist or rebound per game next season. They care about his FT%, 3P%, and outside shot.

the thing is i have no issues with his shooting form.. he might not even need to actually develop a shot because his form when he shots is fine.. He just doesnt shoot and that drives me up a wall... Its the same thing with fultz that i was annoyed about... i give no ****s about the regular season... i dont care if we are an 8 seed.. our only goal should be to smarten brett brown up... continue to work on joels post game and his fit with jimmy buckets and ben shooting... Ben should force 6 to 8 jump shots a game but he is trying to be smart and work within his game... the problem with that is the raptors/celtics will destroy us because of how they defend him or lack there of.

He doesnt need to shoot... He needs to let his balls drop and then shoot because its 100 percent a confidence thing.

kobe4thewinbang
12-28-2018, 12:46 AM
Doncic, easily. Simmons has potential, but Luka has already had 20+/30+ games and has proven he can be clutch. Perfect torch-carrier after Dirk.

FlashBolt
12-28-2018, 01:00 AM
the thing is i have no issues with his shooting form.. he might not even need to actually develop a shot because his form when he shots is fine.. He just doesnt shoot and that drives me up a wall... Its the same thing with fultz that i was annoyed about... i give no ****s about the regular season... i dont care if we are an 8 seed.. our only goal should be to smarten brett brown up... continue to work on joels post game and his fit with jimmy buckets and ben shooting... Ben should force 6 to 8 jump shots a game but he is trying to be smart and work within his game... the problem with that is the raptors/celtics will destroy us because of how they defend him or lack there of.

He doesnt need to shoot... He needs to let his balls drop and then shoot because its 100 percent a confidence thing.

his FT's tell me it's more than a confidence issue.

IKnowHoops
12-28-2018, 02:47 AM
Luka.

Next thread: Who would you choose: Shaq or Giannis

Ben Easily

Shaq and itís not even close

More-Than-Most
12-28-2018, 03:19 AM
trip/doub and steller defense per usual tonight

warfelg
12-28-2018, 08:49 AM
Oh I picked Luka earlier in the thread but Simmons is sliding towards underrated here.

I think weíve hit it. Lol.

Hawkeye15
12-28-2018, 10:23 AM
I think weíve hit it. Lol.

I really don't read a ton of threads involving Simmons, but the way people are talking about him in this one, you would think he was Andrew Wiggins

TheDish87
12-28-2018, 10:26 AM
so as a favor, he couldnt work in the gym and not learn how to shoot or practice shooting? Zion was shooting before Coach K. Try again and try harder



no one has said anything bad about ben but his lack of shooting. no one has said anything bad about his defense, his playmaking etc, only his shot. Ben can still have a huge impact on any game. He doesnt know yet how to control the game and tempo like Rondo can but he will get there. The fact that he flat out refuses to shoot has been concerning and will be the main reason the 76ers cannot fulfill their promise. He might be only "20" but with the Butler move, the 76ers think they can contend for a chip now because they have 3 stars.

Hes in effective driving because he can get sent to the line. He doesnt have any real post moves despite "being bigger than everyone when he was younger" he doesnt have any feel scoring the ball. And no one would say a word if lets say, Jonathan Isaac from the Magic had the same exact skill set because he isnt a star or projected to be a star. Ben has been followed as a young lebron when he was a HS and had high expectations like LBJ before he even step foot in college none the less the NBA. Because hes such a high profile, hes going to get scrutinized and his lack of shooting will prevent the 76ers from winning a chip, and we will see the team Ben has around him if he ever learned to shoot.

I wouldnt be concerend if he wasnt a star and just a role player, I wouldnt be concerned if the 76ers didnt have the peices to make a run at the title. They do have all the pieces needed to make a run. Ben will prevent it because hes just ineffective in any close game down late

at least those who struggled to shoot early on (for example, Kidd/Rondo) they at least shot to keep the defense honest and make them guard them from farther out. Ben doesnt even try.

And shooting im starting to believe can only be improved so much, especially quickly. It took Kidd years like the 2nd half of his career to be a consistent shooter. Tony Allen never became a consistent shooter. Mudiay currently still isnt a consistent shooter. There are plenty of examples throughout NBA history for those who cant shoot only improve soo much. And all i ever asked for was Ben to shoot 18 feet away to expand his game, make defenses respect him, give him and the 76ers more spacing

i swear you and war think we say we need Ben to be a 40-45%3pt shooter and shoot 10 3s a game which no one ever said. If he can become a 32-33% 3pt shooter and shoot 1-2 a game so defenses have to respect it, its going to open everything else in his offensive game

lol dude you have no idea what either were doing. Simmons decided to coast bcuz he dominated all his life with little effort. Zion has a different mentality. So its gonna take Simmons longer to get his **** right.

Rivera
12-28-2018, 10:48 AM
lol dude you have no idea what either were doing. Simmons decided to coast bcuz he dominated all his life with little effort. Zion has a different mentality. So its gonna take Simmons longer to get his **** right.

so your admitting Zion has a better work ethic which was basically one of my points? you have no idea what your even saying

Rivera
12-28-2018, 10:54 AM
I really don't read a ton of threads involving Simmons, but the way people are talking about him in this one, you would think he was Andrew Wiggins

thats how you read this thread really? I havent seen one poster call him a bum. Yea some go in on his shooting but its well deserved. Many people have admitted great things about Bens length, his defense and playmaking ability. But I believe most posters think Luka is close enough in play making, hes better on the fast break than people realize, and hes not the big defensive liability some might have thought he would be that the difference is his ability to shoot.

Luka already has a lethal step back im not sure Ben can ever replicate. Luka already has go to moves to set up his shot or his drive. Ben has nice handles but is more of a freight train.

The crazy thing is, Ben doesnt even need all that, he just needs to be able to go out 18-20 feet and hit an open jumper to help the 76ers spacing and play more high/low post action between Embiid and Simmons and Ben would probably be a top 10 then maybe even a top 5 player

I think you and War are really exaggerating how bad people are saying Ben really is

Hawkeye15
12-28-2018, 11:11 AM
thats how you read this thread really? I havent seen one poster call him a bum. Yea some go in on his shooting but its well deserved. Many people have admitted great things about Bens length, his defense and playmaking ability. But I believe most posters think Luka is close enough in play making, hes better on the fast break than people realize, and hes not the big defensive liability some might have thought he would be that the difference is his ability to shoot.

Luka already has a lethal step back im not sure Ben can ever replicate. Luka already has go to moves to set up his shot or his drive. Ben has nice handles but is more of a freight train.

The crazy thing is, Ben doesnt even need all that, he just needs to be able to go out 18-20 feet and hit an open jumper to help the 76ers spacing and play more high/low post action between Embiid and Simmons and Ben would probably be a top 10 then maybe even a top 5 player

I think you and War are really exaggerating how bad people are saying Ben really is

For the 3rd time haha, I would take Luka as well, due to what the NBA demands from it's stars now. Luka has the bag of tricks, and will only become better.

You nailed it. Same with the Freak. Just become respectable, ****. Rubio was the same way (though clearly a lower tier than these 2).

I also was such a natural shooter, I just assume you can become a good shooter with a little work. Some guys just never get it, which is so odd to me.

warfelg
12-28-2018, 11:31 AM
I really don't read a ton of threads involving Simmons, but the way people are talking about him in this one, you would think he was Andrew Wiggins

To me it hit that point when even after a good game, the comment is always "Well did he shoot a jumper?" I'm not sure what that has to do with playing well.

Like take last night for example:
13 points
14 rebounds
12 assists
3 steals
1 block
7 turnovers

Ok game from him. Could have been better with less turnovers, but overall a very impactful game. And I bet 30 GM's would take a night like that and wouldn't care if he shot a bunch of jumpers and 3's.

Rivera
12-28-2018, 11:33 AM
For the 3rd time haha, I would take Luka as well, due to what the NBA demands from it's stars now. Luka has the bag of tricks, and will only become better.

You nailed it. Same with the Freak. Just become respectable, ****. Rubio was the same way (though clearly a lower tier than these 2).

I also was such a natural shooter, I just assume you can become a good shooter with a little work. Some guys just never get it, which is so odd to me.


To me a jump shot is like swinging a baseball bat. Your just born with a natural one and then you tinker it from there.

Hawkeye15
12-28-2018, 11:52 AM
To me it hit that point when even after a good game, the comment is always "Well did he shoot a jumper?" I'm not sure what that has to do with playing well.

Like take last night for example:
13 points
14 rebounds
12 assists
3 steals
1 block
7 turnovers

Ok game from him. Could have been better with less turnovers, but overall a very impactful game. And I bet 30 GM's would take a night like that and wouldn't care if he shot a bunch of jumpers and 3's.

I mean, it's very valid to worry about how teams would game plan against him come playoff time, with such a terrible jumper. But the dude is like 20-21. He has plenty of time haha. All he has to do is develop something respectable. Now, if in 3-4 years, the guy still can't hit a 3 to save his life, fine, let's crush him.

warfelg
12-28-2018, 12:04 PM
I mean, it's very valid to worry about how teams would game plan against him come playoff time, with such a terrible jumper. But the dude is like 20-21. He has plenty of time haha. All he has to do is develop something respectable. Now, if in 3-4 years, the guy still can't hit a 3 to save his life, fine, let's crush him.

I don't disagree. I've held that assertion from the offseason. But as I kinda keep asserting....this isn't something that's going to change overnight. It's going to take some time for it to develop. He took a nice turnaround jumper at the FT line last night. Still didn't look completely comfortable taking it, but he didn't hesitate to take it. Kinda funny, I see him more 'natural' taking the shot when he's forced to, and he's not comfortable in a 'spot up' situation.

TheDish87
12-28-2018, 12:11 PM
so your admitting Zion has a better work ethic which was basically one of my points? you have no idea what your even saying

i thought i made that very clear in my initial post. Like I said Zion has the luxury of playing for one of the best coaches of all time alongside the #1 and 4 prospects. its weird how into these Simmons discussions you get.

More-Than-Most
12-28-2018, 12:20 PM
so your admitting Zion has a better work ethic which was basically one of my points? you have no idea what your even saying

lol was this ever a debate? simmons looked like he gave no ****s in school before the nba lol. I think his work ethic in the NBA has been fine but before it seemed pretty off

More-Than-Most
12-28-2018, 12:22 PM
i thought i made that very clear in my initial post. Like I said Zion has the luxury of playing for one of the best coaches of all time alongside the #1 and 4 prospects. its weird how into these Simmons discussions you get.

he has actually been pro simmons in most discussions in terms of his talent along with fultz... He just doesnt like that the dude refuses to shoot jumpers which there is an actual argument... again like hawk said he is 20/21 so no big deal but youd like to still see it right now.

Rivera
12-28-2018, 12:57 PM
i thought i made that very clear in my initial post. Like I said Zion has the luxury of playing for one of the best coaches of all time alongside the #1 and 4 prospects. its weird how into these Simmons discussions you get.

and i thought i made it clear that ben could have done himself a favor and shoot more jumpers in the gym during his college time.

You think Coach K has to do with Zion shooting in real games? Zion was shooting a few Js during his AAU days/High school days during games before Duke and actually showed one or 2 a game. Zion doesnt shoot 8-10 jumpers a game, he doesnt need to. But he does shoot 1-2 a game to remind the defense he can so they can respect it.

Ben clearly by the posts in this thread didnt give a F in college didnt practice or work on his J and now it has hurt him because he refuses to shoot and it affects the 76ers spacing

but then again, I wouldnt be surprised you dont understand such a simple basketball concept


he has actually been pro simmons in most discussions in terms of his talent along with fultz... He just doesnt like that the dude refuses to shoot jumpers which there is an actual argument... again like hawk said he is 20/21 so no big deal but youd like to still see it right now.

i hate you and i cant believe you are one of the few that sees what I am actually posting.

Ive been very pro Ben but I also been critical about his one HUGE knock and how it hurts the 76ers. But everything else about Ben is great.

The only thing that I will go a step further is the bolded. You and Hawk and War and the dish and whoever else may say its no big deal because hes 20/21 and if the 76ers werent a title contender I would agree. But the 76er organization would not have made a win now move by trading Cov/Saric 2 younger guys who both fit and were good pieces for a 29 year old star going on 30 whos logged a whole lot of minutes. Clearly the organization believes they can win the East now. And tbh they have the pieces to win the east minus Bens shooting. Ben is what will hold them back to their fullest potential UNLESS Brett grows a pair and does the offense/defense switch with Ben and someone else allowing Jimmy to be the main ball handler and Embiid to post during crunch time of playoff games

FlashBolt
12-28-2018, 01:02 PM
If Ben could shoot right now, he would be a top five PG. What's holding him back? Shooting. Really, no one cares about his rebounding, passing, and defense anymore. They want to see him shoot because that's what takes his game to another level. The guy is hitting less than 60% of his FT's. Don't you guys see this as a problem since he has the ball in his hands quite often?

warfelg
12-28-2018, 01:12 PM
If Ben could shoot right now, he would be a top five PG. What's holding him back? Shooting. Really, no one cares about his rebounding, passing, and defense anymore. They want to see him shoot because that's what takes his game to another level. The guy is hitting less than 60% of his FT's. Don't you guys see this as a problem since he has the ball in his hands quite often?

Thing is we do....we just know this isn't going to be a one day not shooting it then next day suddenly going 8-10 from 3.

valade16
12-28-2018, 01:34 PM
Thing is we do....we just know this isn't going to be a one day not shooting it then next day suddenly going 8-10 from 3.

I don't think people are criticizing him for not going 8/10 from the 3, they are criticizing him for going 0/11 in his career thus far. I get that it will take time for him to develop a shot, but we haven't seen on iota of improvement have we?

He took and missed 11 3's his rookie year, this year he hasn't taken a single one. He is shooting 14% on shots from 16-23 feet.

I get he needs time to develop a shot, but what indication do you have that he's even on the path to developing a shot? Not only has there been no actual improvement with his shooting, statistically he's gotten worse.

warfelg
12-28-2018, 01:42 PM
I don't think people are criticizing him for not going 8/10 from the 3, they are criticizing him for going 0/11 in his career thus far. I get that it will take time for him to develop a shot, but we haven't seen on iota of improvement have we?

He took and missed 11 3's his rookie year, this year he hasn't taken a single one. He is shooting 14% on shots from 16-23 feet.

I get he needs time to develop a shot, but what indication do you have that he's even on the path to developing a shot? Not only has there been no actual improvement with his shooting, statistically he's gotten worse.

Take a look closer at those 11 3's. They were last second heaves beyond half court.

The improvements are coming in ways that stats won't show. His form is completely different. Elbow is in. He's actually jumping. He's using one hand to guide, one to shoot, not both behind the ball. All of that stuff is improvement. But because it's not statistical it doesn't count.

Rivera
12-28-2018, 01:45 PM
Take a look closer at those 11 3's. They were last second heaves beyond half court.

The improvements are coming in ways that stats won't show. His form is completely different. Elbow is in. He's actually jumping. He's using one hand to guide, one to shoot, not both behind the ball. All of that stuff is improvement. But because it's not statistical it doesn't count.

or because he refuses to shoot them when hes wide open but well go with your narrative because it fits your argument of us overreacting to something we arent saying

MannyWood
12-28-2018, 01:48 PM
I don't think so, because one of the few knocks on Luka coming over was his fast break game wasn't the greatest since he wasn't a great athlete (compared to NBA players of course). I also think you are really underrating Ben's ability to be crafty as well. The only reason Luka's game 'translates' better is because of the shot.

Me personally --- I think the backlash on Ben has almost gone too far TBH. And not trying to homer it up since I do admit there are many things he needs to work on. But I always put it last year this way with Ben: He's consistently going to have 'effort' be a 'knock' because he can make really difficult things look easy because of his size and speed.

The fastbreak thing was never a knock on him, it was only the athletic questions. They don't do much fastbreaking in Europe, but he had more than enough of the skill set to be a really good fast break player, plus he can shoot so defenders have to run at him instead of all running back on defense.

valade16
12-28-2018, 01:55 PM
Take a look closer at those 11 3's. They were last second heaves beyond half court.

The improvements are coming in ways that stats won't show. His form is completely different. Elbow is in. He's actually jumping. He's using one hand to guide, one to shoot, not both behind the ball. All of that stuff is improvement. But because it's not statistical it doesn't count.

So statistically he has shown zero improvement?

Even if I grant you all that about his form getting better, none of that will matter if it doesn't translate to shooting the ball from further out. You can only use the "it's intangible improvement" for so long until eventually we should be seeing results. How many more seasons of 0 3's and near zero mid-range shots before you say "we should have seen some statistical improvement by now"?

Will a complete lack of shooting next year be acceptable to you? What about the year after? I'm genuinely trying to figure out how long before improvement is expected.

Rivera
12-28-2018, 01:55 PM
https://ytcropper.com/cropped/iu5c26632d80139

could you imagine how much Ben and the 76ers could be if this was a little more consistent? Like if he shot from that range 1-2 times a game?

Look at Ben using his size to back down a defender and shoot over the top of one. Like im not even asking for him to back someone down and do turn arounds, just shoot from that range or 1 to 2 steps from that range and hit that more consistent.

warfelg
12-28-2018, 01:59 PM
or because he refuses to shoot them when hes wide open but well go with your narrative because it fits your argument of us overreacting to something we arent saying

I'm not the one with a narrative. He's working on his shooting, he doesn't feel comfortable taking them like that in games, but it is improving over where he was when we drafted him.

I think this is a fair and honest question:
Lets say he does what you want, let's say 15 fly from 12 feet+ over 2 games and is say, 2-15. Do you look at that as successful or unsuccessful? Me personally, that's very unsuccessful. I don't need to see him shoot for the sake of shooting like you want him to do. As long as he continues to push out a little by little, cleans up turnovers, and continues to attack the basket and play high level defense, I'm a happy fan.

warfelg
12-28-2018, 02:01 PM
So statistically he has shown zero improvement?

Even if I grant you all that about his form getting better, none of that will matter if it doesn't translate to shooting the ball from further out. You can only use the "it's intangible improvement" for so long until eventually we should be seeing results. How many more seasons of 0 3's and near zero mid-range shots before you say "we should have seen some statistical improvement by now"?

Will a complete lack of shooting next year be acceptable to you? What about the year after? I'm genuinely trying to figure out how long before improvement is expected.

4 years on the court. And you kinda making my point for me by talking about statistics and ignoring the fact that he's changing form for the better.

warfelg
12-28-2018, 02:02 PM
https://ytcropper.com/cropped/iu5c26632d80139

could you imagine how much Ben and the 76ers could be if this was a little more consistent? Like if he shot from that range 1-2 times a game?

Look at Ben using his size to back down a defender and shoot over the top of one. Like im not even asking for him to back someone down and do turn arounds, just shoot from that range or 1 to 2 steps from that range and hit that more consistent.

Ok....so this is the type of growth you want him to make, and he's getting closer and closer to it. And this is the way I projected it to happen and you made comments about it not being enough.

Rivera
12-28-2018, 02:04 PM
I'm not the one with a narrative. He's working on his shooting, he doesn't feel comfortable taking them like that in games, but it is improving over where he was when we drafted him.

I think this is a fair and honest question:
Lets say he does what you want, let's say 15 fly from 12 feet+ over 2 games and is say, 2-15. Do you look at that as successful or unsuccessful? Me personally, that's very unsuccessful. I don't need to see him shoot for the sake of shooting like you want him to do. As long as he continues to push out a little by little, cleans up turnovers, and continues to attack the basket and play high level defense, I'm a happy fan.

depends on the context. Does the defense man up and get in his air space? or is the defense sagging?

there is going to come a time where he becomes 2-15 shooting from 18-20 and the defense will sag, but the more consistently he shoots, he wont be 2-15 and defenses wont sag as much as they are doing now. Defenses not sagging off Ben allows more space for the other 76ers to operate and allowing the other 76ers to cut and allowing Ben to use his vision and passing ability to hit the open cutter and providing a more efficient offense

so i want him going 2-15 to build confidence so he can go 7-15 and make the defenses respect him

and to add I rather that happen now, in the regular season, than to start doing that in the playoffs. The 76ers are still going to be a 2-3 seed so get it out the way and work on it now while these games arent the most meaningful before its too late and its easier come playoff time for the other teams defense to adjust and make the 76ers play 4 on 5 basketball in the half court offense

Rivera
12-28-2018, 02:07 PM
Ok....so this is the type of growth you want him to make, and he's getting closer and closer to it. And this is the way I projected it to happen and you made comments about it not being enough.

when he does this 1-2 times a game consistently and shoots about 40-50% from the mid range, i will say its enough because its going to help his game and the 76ers offense. Once in a blue moon isnt enough growth. Let him do that a few times a game and then we are talking real growth.

Hell I could play plenty of other random clips of Kevin Love once playing defense, Shaq hitting a 3, Dwight hitting a 3, JR Smith making a smart basketball play. A dead clock is right 2x a day.

I need to see him attempt it more now while the games are meaningless for the most part. Even Reggie Miller was shocked.

valade16
12-28-2018, 02:07 PM
4 years on the court. And you kinda making my point for me by talking about statistics and ignoring the fact that he's changing form for the better.

Philosophically, if he completely changes his form to mirror Steph Curry's and he still doesn't take or hit 3's what will it matter? I've been a fan of a team long enough not to fall for fans of a team giving me the "it's intangible improvement" line.

Nevertheless, we can re-convene this conversation in another 2 years after we've seen Simmons' improvement.

TakeYourL
12-28-2018, 02:09 PM
Could you imagine being a coach and having to depend on Simmons in the playoffs?

A guy who needs to be 5 ft from the hoop to score....

Yeah no thanks, Luka is a easy choice.

Until Simmons learns to shoot, he will try exposed in the playoffs constantly.

warfelg
12-28-2018, 02:12 PM
when he does this 1-2 times a game consistently and shoots about 40-50% from the mid range, i will say its enough because its going to help his game and the 76ers offense. Once in a blue moon isnt enough growth. Let him do that a few times a game and then we are talking real growth.

Hell I could play plenty of other random clips of Kevin Love once playing defense, Shaq hitting a 3, Dwight hitting a 3, JR Smith making a smart basketball play. A dead clock is right 2x a day.

I need to see him attempt it more now while the games are meaningless for the most part. Even Reggie Miller was shocked.

So before you've never really put a percentage on it, you said just shoot them. Now there's a percentage tied to it.

But for a guy that doesn't shoot, this is how that growth typically happens. He take a few like this, sees some go in. Then he'll take a few more, testing it. He'll miss some and shy away a bit. Then he'll hit some when pushed, and start moving back to taking a few of them.

When you aren't a shooter you got to see a decent number go in on this 'once in a blue moon' before you start to feel good about hitting them.

warfelg
12-28-2018, 02:14 PM
Philosophically, if he completely changes his form to mirror Steph Curry's and he still doesn't take or hit 3's what will it matter? I've been a fan of a team long enough not to fall for fans of a team giving me the "it's intangible improvement" line.

Nevertheless, we can re-convene this conversation in another 2 years after we've seen Simmons' improvement.

Why is a 3 what matters? Let's say he can even hit 35-40% from about 16 feet, wouldn't that alone make him more difficult to cover?

valade16
12-28-2018, 02:18 PM
Why is a 3 what matters? Let's say he can even hit 35-40% from about 16 feet, wouldn't that alone make him more difficult to cover?

Sure it would, I didn't mean to restrict it to 3's, but he's shown 0 tangible improvement at 16 feet as well.

Rivera
12-28-2018, 02:19 PM
So before you've never really put a percentage on it, you said just shoot them. Now there's a percentage tied to it.

But for a guy that doesn't shoot, this is how that growth typically happens. He take a few like this, sees some go in. Then he'll take a few more, testing it. He'll miss some and shy away a bit. Then he'll hit some when pushed, and start moving back to taking a few of them.

When you aren't a shooter you got to see a decent number go in on this 'once in a blue moon' before you start to feel good about hitting them.

keep making excuses and spin the fact that Ben is a huge liability in tight games. My position is clear and your arguing semantics to defend your boy. its okay. take the L and realize even the most respected posters agree about Ben.

Rivera
12-28-2018, 02:21 PM
Sure it would, I didn't mean to restrict it to 3's, but he's shown 0 tangible improvement at 16 feet as well.

he works on it in practice bro. who cares if he doesnt shoot them in games? He still puts up solid stat lines and shoots 57% from the field and makes an impact on the game.

did you know, Ben Simmons is the only player in NBA history who worked on his game in practice and shown improvement in his game practice? No other NBA player works on deficiencies in their game during practice other than Ben Simmons

warfelg
12-28-2018, 02:34 PM
And this is the frustration to a big number of Sixer fans. Of course we want to see him shoot, and of course we need him to start opening up where he can score from. But from outside fans perspective, it needs to be an immediate change and a huge statistical change, or it won't count. And that's what frustrated me. We're watching every game and following every shred of news, and we can see what's changing with his game. As a non-fan you can tell me how much you watch, but I'm going to always question how closely and how much. And I don't think that's a particularly bad thing to say. But I'm just going to stand on that it's not going to be an overnight change. It's happening little by little, small things change, and us as fans see that and are liking it.

As for comments about us trying to compete; we're still a young team. Brett is juggling developing guys (Ben's shot, Shamet overall, before the injury Fultz) with playing to win (Giving Chandler, JJ Redick, Butler, Embiid big minutes). That's always going to make a balance between development and winning a difficult proposition. In all honesty, I would have rather seen us trade away the #3 pick last year for a player that can be depth rather than trade up for a player (or frankly pick one). We had enough development to do as is, and we added more to it. As we continue with this unique balancing job of development and winning we're going to continue to see struggles.

Like take the Boston game on Christmas. The winning move was to put Embiid and Butler/JJ into a 2 man game and attacking the Celtics. The developmental move was to put the ball in Simmons hands and make him create a play for himself or others. That's a tough thing to balance out. Just like should Ben be letting the ball fly, or take the extra dribble and try to make a play. Sometimes you got to just make the developmental move and live with the results of what happened.

warfelg
12-28-2018, 02:36 PM
keep making excuses and spin the fact that Ben is a huge liability in tight games. My position is clear and your arguing semantics to defend your boy. its okay. take the L and realize even the most respected posters agree about Ben.

What exactly is the excuse and spin? That massive improvement doesn't happen overnight? I didn't realize that saying change doesn't happen overnight is an excuse and spin. I think it was something that people knew.

warfelg
12-28-2018, 02:37 PM
he works on it in practice bro. who cares if he doesnt shoot them in games? He still puts up solid stat lines and shoots 57% from the field and makes an impact on the game.

did you know, Ben Simmons is the only player in NBA history who worked on his game in practice and shown improvement in his game practice? No other NBA player works on deficiencies in their game during practice other than Ben Simmons

You should no better than to bait with a post like this.

So let me ask you something. You work on something for work. You don't feel 100% comfortable with it. Do you still pitch it to your boss anyways? Or do you keep working on it until you are confident that it's correct?

warfelg
12-28-2018, 02:40 PM
Sure it would, I didn't mean to restrict it to 3's, but he's shown 0 tangible improvement at 16 feet as well.

Ok....and like I said, I never expected him to jump to that suddenly. Not sure what's so hard to understand about the fact that improvement doesn't take sudden jumps like that.

valade16
12-28-2018, 02:43 PM
And this is the frustration to a big number of Sixer fans. Of course we want to see him shoot, and of course we need him to start opening up where he can score from. But from outside fans perspective, it needs to be an immediate change and a huge statistical change, or it won't count. And that's what frustrated me. We're watching every game and following every shred of news, and we can see what's changing with his game. As a non-fan you can tell me how much you watch, but I'm going to always question how closely and how much. And I don't think that's a particularly bad thing to say. But I'm just going to stand on that it's not going to be an overnight change. It's happening little by little, small things change, and us as fans see that and are liking it.

As for comments about us trying to compete; we're still a young team. Brett is juggling developing guys (Ben's shot, Shamet overall, before the injury Fultz) with playing to win (Giving Chandler, JJ Redick, Butler, Embiid big minutes). That's always going to make a balance between development and winning a difficult proposition. In all honesty, I would have rather seen us trade away the #3 pick last year for a player that can be depth rather than trade up for a player (or frankly pick one). We had enough development to do as is, and we added more to it. As we continue with this unique balancing job of development and winning we're going to continue to see struggles.

Like take the Boston game on Christmas. The winning move was to put Embiid and Butler/JJ into a 2 man game and attacking the Celtics. The developmental move was to put the ball in Simmons hands and make him create a play for himself or others. That's a tough thing to balance out. Just like should Ben be letting the ball fly, or take the extra dribble and try to make a play. Sometimes you got to just make the developmental move and live with the results of what happened.

First Bolded: Immediate change? It's been 3 years. He had an entire year where he didn't play, and this is now his second season in the league. Nobody is expecting immediate change, but there has been absolutely 0 change in years. That isn't immediate.

Second Bolded: I get it. But have you considered that fans of teams sometimes over hype the improvement of their team? If I had a $1 for every time a fan of a team claimed someone on their team was improving I'd be Jeff Bezos.

warfelg
12-28-2018, 02:50 PM
First Bolded: Immediate change? It's been 3 years. He had an entire year where he didn't play, and this is now his second season in the league. Nobody is expecting immediate change, but there has been absolutely 0 change in years. That isn't immediate.

Second Bolded: I get it. But have you considered that fans of teams sometimes over hype the improvement of their team? If I had a $1 for every time a fan of a team claimed someone on their team was improving I'd be Jeff Bezos.

And in 3 years he went from having 0 shot to actually having a form. Having a form and trusting it in game are 2 WILDLY different things.

As for his improvement, what exactly am I overhyping? I've just stated the fact that he's working on it.

Look, ultimately I agree with you an Riv. Go back and read....yes he absolutely needs to improve his ability to shoot. Where I disagree is the fact that he doesn't need to suddenly shoot all over the place to prove it. Because from my perspective it definitely feels like a setup, so that if he shoots 6 shots outside 10 feet in a game, going 0-6 in a loss, people (not your two specifically) will make comments that if he attacked rather than shot, we would have won.

zookman65
12-28-2018, 02:51 PM
Thread saturation point? Both are excellent young players and either would be good cornerstones for any young team. My preference for Luka is that he like Ben has a good all around game but can absolutely take over a game when necessary from a scoring perspective like he did when he dropped 11 unanswered points against Houston a few weeks ago. I know Simmons is better at stuff such as defense and rebounding but I enjoy Luka's ability to drop 10 points on you in 90 seconds

Rivera
12-28-2018, 03:08 PM
You should no better than to bait with a post like this.

So let me ask you something. You work on something for work. You don't feel 100% comfortable with it. Do you still pitch it to your boss anyways? Or do you keep working on it until you are confident that it's correct?

easy answer. When I first applied for a management position in my company, I worked hard for it in my current role and prepared, but of course I wasnt confident. I pulled my boss to the side, asked him what hes looking in a candidate and asked him if he could give me a pracitce interview and feed back on my pitch. He agreed and he gave me honest feedback about my mock interview and my pitch to be AM. Come time for the real AM interview I felt more prepared but he threw a curveball at me I wasnt expecting. I answered and completed as confident in my answer even though I wasnt sure if it was correct, I stood by my conviction because I have to make him believe that I beleive it. I did well and ill be honest, I didnt get the AM position. But I got more feedback and told me how close I was so now I have tweaked things in my interview/resume and pitch so when the next AM opening becomes available, I will try again.


Better to try now and fail while the games dont mean that much but continue to build and become more confident so when its his time to shine hes ready and more confident to take that shot in a big moment.

Rivera
12-28-2018, 03:10 PM
I posted this in the game thread and ill post it here.

I am dying for a game similar to last night where Philly is blowing out an oppnent by 20 with less than 5 min game to go. I want Brett Brown to leave Simmons and tell Simmons and the team, I dont care create your own jump shot every position from here until the end of the game. Force Ben to get out of his comfort zone in a game that really is out of control and let him build off that good or bad. Let Ben show himself he can do it

warfelg
12-28-2018, 03:16 PM
easy answer. When I first applied for a management position in my company, I worked hard for it in my current role and prepared, but of course I wasnt confident. I pulled my boss to the side, asked him what hes looking in a candidate and asked him if he could give me a pracitce interview and feed back on my pitch. He agreed and he gave me honest feedback about my mock interview and my pitch to be AM. Come time for the real AM interview I felt more prepared but he threw a curveball at me I wasnt expecting. I answered and completed as confident in my answer even though I wasnt sure if it was correct, I stood by my conviction because I have to make him believe that I beleive it. I did well and ill be honest, I didnt get the AM position. But I got more feedback and told me how close I was so now I have tweaked things in my interview/resume and pitch so when the next AM opening becomes available, I will try again.


Better to try now and fail while the games dont mean that much but continue to build and become more confident so when its his time to shine hes ready and more confident to take that shot in a big moment.

So your saying that you practiced a bunch until you felt comfortable doing it in a live situation.....just like Ben's doing?

warfelg
12-28-2018, 03:17 PM
I posted this in the game thread and ill post it here.

I am dying for a game similar to last night where Philly is blowing out an oppnent by 20 with less than 5 min game to go. I want Brett Brown to leave Simmons and tell Simmons and the team, I dont care create your own jump shot every position from here until the end of the game. Force Ben to get out of his comfort zone in a game that really is out of control and let him build off that good or bad. Let Ben show himself he can do it

Why should he do that and risk injury to one of our most important players? Because if Ben was in a game up 20+ under 5 minutes and got hurt long term Brett better be fired.

ewing
12-28-2018, 03:22 PM
And this is the frustration to a big number of Sixer fans. Of course we want to see him shoot, and of course we need him to start opening up where he can score from. But from outside fans perspective, it needs to be an immediate change and a huge statistical change, or it won't count. And that's what frustrated me. We're watching every game and following every shred of news, and we can see what's changing with his game. As a non-fan you can tell me how much you watch, but I'm going to always question how closely and how much. And I don't think that's a particularly bad thing to say. But I'm just going to stand on that it's not going to be an overnight change. It's happening little by little, small things change, and us as fans see that and are liking it.

As for comments about us trying to compete; we're still a young team. Brett is juggling developing guys (Ben's shot, Shamet overall, before the injury Fultz) with playing to win (Giving Chandler, JJ Redick, Butler, Embiid big minutes). That's always going to make a balance between development and winning a difficult proposition. In all honesty, I would have rather seen us trade away the #3 pick last year for a player that can be depth rather than trade up for a player (or frankly pick one). We had enough development to do as is, and we added more to it. As we continue with this unique balancing job of development and winning we're going to continue to see struggles.

Like take the Boston game on Christmas. The winning move was to put Embiid and Butler/JJ into a 2 man game and attacking the Celtics. The developmental move was to put the ball in Simmons hands and make him create a play for himself or others. That's a tough thing to balance out. Just like should Ben be letting the ball fly, or take the extra dribble and try to make a play. Sometimes you got to just make the developmental move and live with the results of what happened.

You guys should be playing every game to win. Ben has plenty of opportunity both on and off court to work on his game


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

warfelg
12-28-2018, 03:30 PM
You guys should be playing every game to win. Ben has plenty of opportunity both on and off court to work on his game


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

So now you've hit at the issue: If we're playing to win, we don't really have the ability to just let Ben have games where he just shoots a bunch because that won't lead to wins.

I've been saying this a bunch, but what will lead to wins is Ben no longer being the full time 1, getting a combo guard 1, and put Ben at the 4 who facilitates offense.

Rivera
12-28-2018, 03:40 PM
So your saying that you practiced a bunch until you felt comfortable doing it in a live situation.....just like Ben's doing?

except in 3 years he really hasnt tried to shoot :laugh:

Rivera
12-28-2018, 03:42 PM
Why should he do that and risk injury to one of our most important players? Because if Ben was in a game up 20+ under 5 minutes and got hurt long term Brett better be fired.

if you think like that, then yea, that will eventually happen. you can get injured on any play. you can get injured off the court. injuries happen and are freak things. Better to get injured while your trying to improve than him just tripping down the stairs or getting in a car accident

warfelg
12-28-2018, 03:48 PM
if you think like that, then yea, that will eventually happen. you can get injured on any play. you can get injured off the court. injuries happen and are freak things. Better to get injured while your trying to improve than him just tripping down the stairs or getting in a car accident

He's already been injured in a freak accident. But if he got injured again in a point of a game or practice where he didn't need to be in the game or doing that thing in practice, then yes Brett should be fired for playing Ben when he didn't need too.

warfelg
12-28-2018, 03:51 PM
except in 3 years he really hasnt tried to shoot :laugh:

You see and here's where we will really diverge:
You say the shot in the Boston game was an accident almost. Yet Sixer fans know last year, last playoffs, **** 1 month ago he would have let the clock run out and try to point to someone and say they didn't cut. Just attempting that shot, and the one last night in Utah, was big growth from him as opposed to just holding the ball or trying to pass it off.

smith&wesson
12-28-2018, 04:12 PM
For sure Luke

TheDish87
12-28-2018, 04:52 PM
Since Simmons came into the league the team has won a lot of games with playing 2nd fiddle. He has always had it so easy and he clearly coasted on natural ability most of his life so hes not just gonna magically become some reliable shooter. He is now the 3rd, maybe even 4th option on the team and his shooting isnt as crucial right now. Come next season it will be a bigger a need and something will have to be shown when his max extension talks start up. We are gonna finish anywhere between 1-4 in the East and with a few bench additions the team is fully capable of contending for a title. Why shoot 11% like Giannis and hurt the team? Just bcuz you are willing to take it doesnt mean teams respect it when they know itll be a brick. It takes a few seasons of showing youre capable before teams actually give you that respect. So yea for the rest of this season id rather him pass on a 3 hes not comfortable taking it rather then brick it and let the other team break the other way.

Rivera
12-28-2018, 05:07 PM
Since Simmons came into the league the team has won a lot of games with playing 2nd fiddle. He has always had it so easy and he clearly coasted on natural ability most of his life so hes not just gonna magically become some reliable shooter. He is now the 3rd, maybe even 4th option on the team and his shooting isnt as crucial right now. Come next season it will be a bigger a need and something will have to be shown when his max extension talks start up. We are gonna finish anywhere between 1-4 in the East and with a few bench additions the team is fully capable of contending for a title. Why shoot 11% like Giannis and hurt the team? Just bcuz you are willing to take it doesnt mean teams respect it when they know itll be a brick. It takes a few seasons of showing youre capable before teams actually give you that respect. So yea for the rest of this season id rather him pass on a 3 hes not comfortable taking it rather then brick it and let the other team break the other way.

you make it clear with every other post you dont know the actual game of basketball. do you think defenders are thinking oh Giannis only shoots 11%? No. Do they game plan for it? Sure. But this is the greek freak.

Perception is reality. Giannis isnt afraid to shoot from the mid range. There are games where he has shot up to 4-6 mid range jumpers with no hesitation. When Ben shoots one jumper, even if he misses, we throw a parade.

There are seasons in the past where Giannis has scored about 10% of his points from the mid range, granted he was in efficient, but he wasnt scared to shoot, like Ben

Plus comparing Giannis to Bens offensive skill isnt as close as youd think. Ben is no where near as good driving, finishing, touch, or feel for scoring around the basket like Giannis. Giannis isnt the playmaker Ben is. Plus Giannis isnt afraid to shoot, Ben is

So if your going to try to compare Giannis to Ben. Realize, Giannis at least attempts mid range open Js which will make defenders respect him in the heat of the basketball game where Ben the majority of the time flat out refuses to shoot

One day you will learn what we have been trying to teach you. Maybe youll open your eyes and realize when the playoffs comes around and Ben costs you

TheDish87
12-28-2018, 05:22 PM
actually, yea teams will gladly let Giannis beat them by hitting deep shots. The funny thing is Giannis is taking nearly 80% of his shots within 3 feet to Bens 71. In fact one could assume Giannis understand he cant shoot either as his % of shots within 3 feet have increased yearly where Ben has made progress and decreased his % from last year so far. How many game winning shots outside of 15 feet has Giannis made in his career?

valade16
12-28-2018, 05:31 PM
actually, yea teams will gladly let Giannis beat them by hitting deep shots. The funny thing is Giannis is taking nearly 80% of his shots within 3 feet to Bens 71. In fact one could assume Giannis understand he cant shoot either as his % of shots within 3 feet have increased yearly where Ben has made progress and decreased his % from last year so far. How many game winning shots outside of 15 feet has Giannis made in his career?

?

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/antetgi01.html

Giannis is taking 60% of his shots within 3 ft of the basket, he is making 80% of those.

Giannis is taking a combined 27% of his shots from 10 feet and out. He is making 33% of those from 10-16 ft, 41% from 16-23, and 13% from 3.

Ben Simmons is taking a whopping 90% of his shots from between 0-10 ft. He's taking the rest primarily from 10-16 ft (.079% to .018 at 16-23). He is making his 3-10 ft shots at a 43% clip and his 10-16 ft ones at a 26% clip. His 16-23 are at a 14% clip.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/simmobe01.html

Rivera
12-28-2018, 06:08 PM
?

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/antetgi01.html

Giannis is taking 60% of his shots within 3 ft of the basket, he is making 80% of those.

Giannis is taking a combined 27% of his shots from 10 feet and out. He is making 33% of those from 10-16 ft, 41% from 16-23, and 13% from 3.

Ben Simmons is taking a whopping 90% of his shots from between 0-10 ft. He's taking the rest primarily from 10-16 ft (.079% to .018 at 16-23). He is making his 3-10 ft shots at a 43% clip and his 10-16 ft ones at a 26% clip. His 16-23 are at a 14% clip.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/simmobe01.html

dont let facts get in the way of a good false narrative

IKnowHoops
12-28-2018, 08:24 PM
Ben will go out and get a jump shot one offseason and instantly become worlds better.

More-Than-Most
12-28-2018, 08:46 PM
See my thing is that of course he needs a shot and he may very well be practicing it.. I feel like in collage he didnt care because he knew it was irrelevent and it is tbh but his work ethic has been fine here... Not kobe like but not many are.

That being said everything about his shot looks good so its clearly just a confidence comfort type thing... I want him to force them but it could be a double edged sword as well meaning he sucks so bad that he regresses over progresses... My overall argument in this thread is this though... I get people love shooting but outside of shooting doncic does nothing better than ben simmons... We are taking for granted just how great Ben has been and it was actually being blasted all day on most media programs about just this because 1 guy on espn said we should bench him for TJ late in games when the half court offense is a need which is insanity and stupid... Ben is putting up 16/9/8 on 57 percent shooting and is one of the better defenders in basketball while adjusting to butler on the fly which is also a big deal.

More-Than-Most
12-28-2018, 08:54 PM
?

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/antetgi01.html

Giannis is taking 60% of his shots within 3 ft of the basket, he is making 80% of those.

Giannis is taking a combined 27% of his shots from 10 feet and out. He is making 33% of those from 10-16 ft, 41% from 16-23, and 13% from 3.

Ben Simmons is taking a whopping 90% of his shots from between 0-10 ft. He's taking the rest primarily from 10-16 ft (.079% to .018 at 16-23). He is making his 3-10 ft shots at a 43% clip and his 10-16 ft ones at a 26% clip. His 16-23 are at a 14% clip.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/simmobe01.html

How about Giannis his 2nd year considering this is bens 2nd year? By the chart Giannis had slightly more range but he was pretty awful from 3-10 feet by the chart... Basically giannis took more shots but it really didnt help him any and only hurt the team. Giannis was better 10 feet to 3point but was insanely awful 3-10 feet compared to ben. Again its more so giannis is just taking the shots but at the same time he forced a ton of shots and the bucks werent really a contender... I get why ben doesnt do it even though i think he should. Giannis jump shot was 32 percent that season where is bens was 29 but giannis of course had more shots and some were of course deeper but ben also shot a similar pct from jump shots his first year 31 pct to giannis in his 2nd year.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/antetgi01/shooting/2015


https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/simmobe01/shooting/2019



Basically ben had more range his first year compared to this year which tells me he isnt forcing it because he doesnt need to even though i think he does.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/simmobe01/shooting/2018

More-Than-Most
12-28-2018, 08:58 PM
it wssnt until giannis 3rd year did he actually started really expanding his range. On top of this Bens first 2 seasons so far are better than any of Giannis first 3 seasons if we are being honest... Giannis is by far the better player now but his shot is still an issue but he makes it work... Ben needs a bit more than 1 and a half season before we actually start criticizing him to this degree doesn't he? I get why he is getting critized though and its his own fault to a degree... He came in being talked about as the next lebron and hung out with lebron and was called the prince etc etc etc... So the hype was there which wasnt with giannis.

Mr.B
12-28-2018, 10:41 PM
repeating myself here, but at 17, did you go up against a 6'9" guy who can break you down off the dribble? I doubt it

name of the game is get the easiest shot possible. Layups are easy.

Now you would hope somewhere along the way a coach reached out and told him how important a jumper is. But youth coaches usually jizz their pants when a talent like Simmons lands on them, and tend to not mess with what makes them great.

Right I understand that but if a player envisions himself being a great player (not just happy getting to the NBA) then he would want to have that shot in his arsenal. There are several reason why a guy would just completely ignore working on that part of his game and none of them are good reasons.

Mr.B
12-28-2018, 10:43 PM
BS there are plenty of bigs in the NBA today who learned how to shoot when they didnt need to because they were bigger and more athletic than their competition. He didnt feel a need to work on it and thats on him. If that was the case, I could give almost any player in the league a pass "because they didnt need to learn it at the time"

plenty of bigs learned how to shoot, Ben isnt special, he decided to try and coast off his athletic gifts because its not like he has a great post game to take advantage of his height. Sounds like hes lazy and entitled to me for the fact that he never decided to work on his jumper or even improve his post game since hes bigger than anyone

Exactly! Either that or he has the wrong people in his ear telling him that wasnít important or necessary for him to learn.

More-Than-Most
12-28-2018, 10:51 PM
Exactly! Either that or he has the wrong people in his ear telling him that wasnít important or necessary for him to learn.

another option is the safe route until he is drafted.... If I was that good in highschool and collage and had my game a certain way and was expected to go number 1 i would do the same **** i am doing until I was drafted and got life changing money... Once in the NBA id work on adjusting. If he starts messing with his shooting and starts to suck or starting showing less of what made him the next lebron he could have fallen... **** that.

zookman65
12-29-2018, 01:34 AM
Luka 34 points tonight with 7 threes. Unfortunately Rick Carlisle seems to be the best defense for Luka leaving him out of the game for 9 minutes in 3rd/4th quarter and going with Dennis Smith JR. on final play. Luka needs to be shooting the last shot

More-Than-Most
12-29-2018, 02:32 AM
Luka 34 points tonight with 7 threes. Unfortunately Rick Carlisle seems to be the best defense for Luka leaving him out of the game for 9 minutes in 3rd/4th quarter and going with Dennis Smith JR. on final play. Luka needs to be shooting the last shot

agreed on the last shot but brett does the same thing with simmons sitting him forever. Luka was insane offensively today but again it goes back to the same thing... his defense was putrid... he cant keep letting guys blow by him.. His shot is amazing and like someone said he actually moves like a PG and makes sick decisions but that defense is boy oh boy

TheDish87
12-29-2018, 10:28 AM
?

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/antetgi01.html

Giannis is taking 60% of his shots within 3 ft of the basket, he is making 80% of those.

Giannis is taking a combined 27% of his shots from 10 feet and out. He is making 33% of those from 10-16 ft, 41% from 16-23, and 13% from 3.

Ben Simmons is taking a whopping 90% of his shots from between 0-10 ft. He's taking the rest primarily from 10-16 ft (.079% to .018 at 16-23). He is making his 3-10 ft shots at a 43% clip and his 10-16 ft ones at a 26% clip. His 16-23 are at a 14% clip.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/simmobe01.html

hmmm maybe i was looking at the wrong thing. ill look at again. this is good stuff.

STRIKERC
12-29-2018, 11:19 AM
I'm waiting patiently for the Luka vs the next shinny new toy thread in a few years.

What people forget to understand is everyone gets figured out eventually. Even Lebron was figured out at some point. Only the great ones reinvent their game. If Simmons somehow develops a jump shot he's in a different stratosphere. Time will tell whether he's is going to be counted among the best or not, but make no mistake about it, Luka will be figured out.

Kat was very recently called the best young five by some. We later found out his defense is trash. It happens and it will happen to Luka. Give it a few years.

STRIKERC
12-29-2018, 11:32 AM
you make it clear with every other post you dont know the actual game of basketball. do you think defenders are thinking oh Giannis only shoots 11%? No. Do they game plan for it? Sure. But this is the greek freak.

Perception is reality. Giannis isnt afraid to shoot from the mid range. There are games where he has shot up to 4-6 mid range jumpers with no hesitation. When Ben shoots one jumper, even if he misses, we throw a parade.

There are seasons in the past where Giannis has scored about 10% of his points from the mid range, granted he was in efficient, but he wasnt scared to shoot, like Ben

Plus comparing Giannis to Bens offensive skill isnt as close as youd think. Ben is no where near as good driving, finishing, touch, or feel for scoring around the basket like Giannis. Giannis isnt the playmaker Ben is. Plus Giannis isnt afraid to shoot, Ben is

So if your going to try to compare Giannis to Ben. Realize, Giannis at least attempts mid range open Js which will make defenders respect him in the heat of the basketball game where Ben the majority of the time flat out refuses to shoot

One day you will learn what we have been trying to teach you. Maybe youll open your eyes and realize when the playoffs comes around and Ben costs you

Excellent points.
Ben Simmons' game will be unlocked if he develops a jump shot and that's what's frustrating about his game right now. His feel for the game and natural instincts to get everyone involved is far better that freak's. But he needs that jump shot to unlock his Lebronesque potential.

Heediot
12-29-2018, 11:33 AM
I'm waiting patiently for the Luka vs the next shinny new toy thread in a few years.

What people forget to understand is everyone gets figured out eventually. Even Lebron was figured out at some point. Only the great ones reinvent their game. If Simmons somehow develops a jump shot he's in a different stratosphere. Time will tell whether he's is going to be counted among the best or not, but make no mistake about it, Luka will be figured out.

Kat was very recently called the best young five by some. We later found out his defense is trash. It happens and it will happen to Luka. Give it a few years.

You never know, high iq guys can adapt. Look at Jokic, I don't think teams are going to figure him out at this point. If you are highly skilled and high iq, you can find ways to counter and be effective. Doncic is one of those high iq/skill guys. Honestly, euroleague defenses gave Luka more trouble IMO, in the nba you can't breathe on a ball handler. The court is smaller with fiba/euro rules.

STRIKERC
12-29-2018, 11:56 AM
You never know, high iq guys can adapt. Look at Jokic, I don't think teams are going to figure him out at this point. If you are highly skilled and high iq, you can find ways to counter and be effective. Doncic is one of those high iq/skill guys. Honestly, euroleague defenses gave Luka more trouble IMO, in the nba you can't breathe on a ball handler. The court is smaller with fiba/euro rules.

Adaptation is the key. But everybody gets figured out. Even Lebron was figured out to be a free throw/perimeter shooting liability at some point in his career but he worked hard to overcome that flaw.

That's why comparing a guy in his third year/ second year being active to a rookie is silly.

I can tell you one weakness teams are going to exploit with Luka already and i'm not some NBA genius. He lacks lateral quickness. What how teams are going to exploit him defensively next season and beyond.

Heediot
12-29-2018, 12:03 PM
Adaptation is the key. But everybody gets figured out. Even Lebron was figured out to be a free throw/perimeter shooting liability at some point in his career but he worked hard to overcome that flaw.

That's why comparing a guy in his third year/ second year being active to a rookie is silly.

I can tell you one weakness teams are going to exploit with Luka already and i'm not some NBA genius. He lacks lateral quickness. What how teams are going to exploit him defensively next season and beyond.

True about defense. Teams do try to exploit the foot-speed of some of these Euro's including Jokic and Doncic. Forgot about that side of the ball.

Iversonfan4life
12-29-2018, 12:08 PM
Ben is much closer to a bigger rondo than Giannis type player.
A couple things factor in here:
1. Ben would be considered a much more efficient player with 4 shooters around him. He does not fit (right now) with a player like Joel.
2. We are trying to win now. Ben shooting pull up threes and mid ranges (right now)will not help in this area.

Weíre in an interesting spot where we need to win now due to butler trade but also be patient with a 21 yr old who has the potential in 5 years to be a top 10 player.

Itís funny. I think the only team that Benz non shooting becomes most apparent against is the Celtics. He doesnít assert himself as physically against this team for some reason. Maybe after we get that first W against the Cs this year his confidence/physicality will come out.

zookman65
12-29-2018, 01:31 PM
They are both emerging great players in different ways. Maybe both are special? How about Luka and Ben together. That would be the start of a good core. Come on down to Dallas Ben... :)

prodigy
12-29-2018, 01:36 PM
Simmons for ROY 2019

Mr.B
12-29-2018, 02:21 PM
another option is the safe route until he is drafted.... If I was that good in highschool and collage and had my game a certain way and was expected to go number 1 i would do the same **** i am doing until I was drafted and got life changing money... Once in the NBA id work on adjusting. If he starts messing with his shooting and starts to suck or starting showing less of what made him the next lebron he could have fallen... **** that.

Practicing his shot would have zero effect on his athletic ability.

Mr.B
12-29-2018, 02:30 PM
I'm waiting patiently for the Luka vs the next shinny new toy thread in a few years.

What people forget to understand is everyone gets figured out eventually. Even Lebron was figured out at some point. Only the great ones reinvent their game. If Simmons somehow develops a jump shot he's in a different stratosphere. Time will tell whether he's is going to be counted among the best or not, but make no mistake about it, Luka will be figured out.

Kat was very recently called the best young five by some. We later found out his defense is trash. It happens and it will happen to Luka. Give it a few years.

Very true. The same thing happens with Dirk. Early in his career teams figured out he struggled when being guarded by a smaller longer wing. So Dirk developed a post game. Then teams started to double him when he went to the block so he improved his passing when doubled. Then when teams started defending him with larger players he developed that 1 legged fade away.

Luka will eventually have to do the same. The thing with Luka though is that he already does so many different things very well. He can shoot, he can handle the ball, he can pass out of the double team, and he has a post game. He also has a floater that took Steve Nash several years to perfect. His game is so diverse that it may take defenses a little longer to figure him out.

zn23
12-29-2018, 02:57 PM
I'm taking Luka for two reasons:

1. I don't think Ben Simmons can get much better than he is now. What you see now is what you're going to see going forward. Which isn't bad, because he's a solid player right now, but not transcendent.

2. Simmons depends more on his athleticism, which is never a good thing especially since he's not even close to developing a jump shot. If he ever does suffer more injuries, he'll be rendered ineffective.

zn23
12-29-2018, 03:01 PM
Excellent points.
Ben Simmons' game will be unlocked if he develops a jump shot and that's what's frustrating about his game right now. His feel for the game and natural instincts to get everyone involved is far better that freak's. But he needs that jump shot to unlock his Lebronesque potential.

But how long is that going to take? He's in his "2nd year"(3rd really) and he's not even close.

Let's put it this way, when LeBron entered the league his shooting was probably a 3-4/10 and he's raised to about a 7/10. He can hit 3s now, but even by his 3rd year the improvement in his shot from his rookie year was noticeable.

Simmons entered the league with 0/10 shooting, and it's still 0/10. He has no jump shot at all.

STRIKERC
12-29-2018, 04:46 PM
I'm taking Luka for two reasons:

1. I don't think Ben Simmons can get much better than he is now. What you see now is what you're going to see going forward. Which isn't bad, because he's a solid player right now, but not transcendent.

2. Simmons depends more on his athleticism, which is never a good thing especially since he's not even close to developing a jump shot. If he ever does suffer more injuries, he'll be rendered ineffective.

You are wrong on both counts.
Simmons absolutely can improve but that solely depends on him. Actually his game is already pretty good but he's going to be otherworldly good if he adds a shot. Like, unguardable.

And his game is far from being dependent on athleticism. They often say he's like Magic. His game is a combination of a great feel, floor vision and size at the pg position. He doesn't do anything athletic wise that jumps off the screen.

STRIKERC
12-29-2018, 04:49 PM
But how long is that going to take? He's in his "2nd year"(3rd really) and he's not even close.

Let's put it this way, when LeBron entered the league his shooting was probably a 3-4/10 and he's raised to about a 7/10. He can hit 3s now, but even by his 3rd year the improvement in his shot from his rookie year was noticeable.

Simmons entered the league with 0/10 shooting, and it's still 0/10. He has no jump shot at all.

True
This is what's frustrating a lot of us. The fact that he doesn't even try. I can't tell you if he'll ever develop it but if he does watch out.
He's already a better passer than Lebron was at the same stage in their careers. Shooting is what will make him great or average.

Mr.B
12-29-2018, 08:04 PM
I'm taking Luka for two reasons:

1. I don't think Ben Simmons can get much better than he is now. What you see now is what you're going to see going forward. Which isn't bad, because he's a solid player right now, but not transcendent.

2. Simmons depends more on his athleticism, which is never a good thing especially since he's not even close to developing a jump shot. If he ever does suffer more injuries, he'll be rendered ineffective.

There are also very few players in NBA history that started their careers depending on their athleticism that continued to have success after Father Time caught up with them. Simmons MIGHT be one of those guys but the odds are not in his favor. Guys that rely on their athleticism typically suffer some kind of injury that limits their effectiveness. Grant Hill and Penny Hardaway are two examples.

More-Than-Most
12-29-2018, 08:23 PM
Practicing his shot would have zero effect on his athletic ability.

not hitting and forcing those shots would hurt his game/value/confidence. I am sure he took jump shots and worked on it in practice but during a game etc wasnt a smart idea when you are the far and away expected number 1 pick.

zookman65
12-29-2018, 08:33 PM
Anyone see the offensive display that Luka Doncic put on against Dhrue Holladay, one of the best defensive PGs in the league? He made him look silly several times with his handle, dribble behind back, step back, step to side shot making. Unbelievable. The guy will be scoring 30 plus regularly soon.

crewfan13
12-29-2018, 09:55 PM
I mean, it's very valid to worry about how teams would game plan against him come playoff time, with such a terrible jumper. But the dude is like 20-21. He has plenty of time haha. All he has to do is develop something respectable. Now, if in 3-4 years, the guy still can't hit a 3 to save his life, fine, let's crush him.

But have you watched him shoot a jumper? In all honesty. I'm not trying to bash him just to bash him but the shot form isn't even close. It's not something that just getting extra shots up fixes. Like people compare him to Giannis. Giannis has a ways to go to on his jumper yet but the framework is there. Simmons legit may need to tear the entire thing down and start from scratch. And hell be tearing it down and starting over the summer before his age 23 season at the earliest. That's not ideal in developing a jumper.

It's not that guys can't develop jumpers late. But the ones that do usually just require tweaks and reps. I'm not sure that's all Simmons requires. And that's why Luka would be my choice.

ewing
12-29-2018, 10:03 PM
But have you watched him shoot a jumper? In all honesty. I'm not trying to bash him just to bash him but the shot form isn't even close. It's not something that just getting extra shots up fixes. Like people compare him to Giannis. Giannis has a ways to go to on his jumper yet but the framework is there. Simmons legit may need to tear the entire thing down and start from scratch. And hell be tearing it down and starting over the summer before his age 23 season at the earliest. That's not ideal in developing a jumper.

It's not that guys can't develop jumpers late. But the ones that do usually just require tweaks and reps. I'm not sure that's all Simmons requires. And that's why Luka would be my choice.

Is he trying to kick it in?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Heediot
12-29-2018, 10:07 PM
Anyone see the offensive display that Luka Doncic put on against Dhrue Holladay, one of the best defensive PGs in the league? He made him look silly several times with his handle, dribble behind back, step back, step to side shot making. Unbelievable. The guy will be scoring 30 plus regularly soon.

Not so sure about 30, but with today's rules/pace/style who knows.

ewing
12-29-2018, 10:10 PM
not hitting and forcing those shots would hurt his game/value/confidence. I am sure he took jump shots and worked on it in practice but during a game etc wasnt a smart idea when you are the far and away expected number 1 pick.

There are situations where he absolutely should be shooting and is not. Sure this was true in the past as well. Late shot clock etc. maybe you are right and he is just too fragile like Fultz though


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

More-Than-Most
12-29-2018, 11:10 PM
There are situations where he absolutely should be shooting and is not. Sure this was true in the past as well. Late shot clock etc. maybe you are right and he is just too fragile like Fultz though


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

its a terrible situation for someone with his hype to be in... think about it. Imagine lebron being drafted first year and put next to say a Shaq... Normally guys that come in with the hype of the lebrons/simmons/Zions are on terrible teams where at their worst they are still the best player... Embiid being as good as he is has to **** with simmons head.... If simmons shoots to get better and it costs us the reason we lose will always be him even if its actually embiids fault or browns or butlers etc etc etc because of the target on his back. I 100 percent feel like that is in his head so he sticks with what he is good at and puts up a great stat line 95 percent of the time with the down side being he wont be able to add much on offense against a team like the celtics in the playoffs.

STRIKERC
12-29-2018, 11:20 PM
Anyone see the offensive display that Luka Doncic put on against Dhrue Holladay, one of the best defensive PGs in the league? He made him look silly several times with his handle, dribble behind back, step back, step to side shot making. Unbelievable. The guy will be scoring 30 plus regularly soon.

He's actually likely going to score less in his second year than his first year. That sophomore slump. And i stress it again, he's going to be figured out in his second year. Teams are going to analyze his game and figure out his weaknesses.
If Luka is going to be that Super star player you guys are predicting he's going to have to add to his current game after teams device ways to limit him.
I just can't wait for that thread discussing Luka's weaknesses and such in a year or two.
We are discussing Simmons' now and rightfully so. It's up to him to overcome those flaws.

Redrum187
12-30-2018, 02:43 PM
I'm waiting patiently for the Luka vs the next shinny new toy thread in a few years.

What people forget to understand is everyone gets figured out eventually. Even Lebron was figured out at some point. Only the great ones reinvent their game. If Simmons somehow develops a jump shot he's in a different stratosphere. Time will tell whether he's is going to be counted among the best or not, but make no mistake about it, Luka will be figured out.

Kat was very recently called the best young five by some. We later found out his defense is trash. It happens and it will happen to Luka. Give it a few years.

Only Luka's defense, while not elite, is good. When he guards smaller guards he does have trouble keeping up, but when he covers most SGs, SFs, and PFs, he's quite good. If you watch Luka, he gives actual effort and energy on defense. I think as his body matures, he'll be even better on that end, but he may never be above average defensively on quicker/smaller point guards.

zookman65
12-31-2018, 02:30 AM
He's actually likely going to score less in his second year than his first year. That sophomore slump. And i stress it again, he's going to be figured out in his second year. Teams are going to analyze his game and figure out his weaknesses.
If Luka is going to be that Super star player you guys are predicting he's going to have to add to his current game after teams device ways to limit him.
I just can't wait for that thread discussing Luka's weaknesses and such in a year or two.
We are discussing Simmons' now and rightfully so. It's up to him to overcome those flaws.

I think that is nonsense. All players dont go through a sophomore slump. Some actually get better. You are going to scout how to not get your ankles broken by Luka or how to better defend a 3 point shot that is already highly contested?? Good luck..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtSGSbl8h9Y

More-Than-Most
12-31-2018, 04:11 AM
Only Luka's defense, while not elite, is good. When he guards smaller guards he does have trouble keeping up, but when he covers most SGs, SFs, and PFs, he's quite good. If you watch Luka, he gives actual effort and energy on defense. I think as his body matures, he'll be even better on that end, but he may never be above average defensively on quicker/smaller point guards.

no no it isnt. He is one of the worst defenders in the NBA this year... Think about something... Harden is a bad defender this year and even harden is putting up a better defensive year than luka.

Rivera
12-31-2018, 08:44 AM
no no it isnt. He is one of the worst defenders in the NBA this year... Think about something... Harden is a bad defender this year and even harden is putting up a better defensive year than luka.

You need to watch because your only watching a box score. Luka defends SF/PFs he actually holds his own. Heís not a terrible defender. Certainly not Harden bad

And if your basing that off Stats. And stats say Harden > Luka on D then we really need to re evaluate these defensive metrics. Because Luka is not Harden bad. He does a decent job staying in front of his man using his body and is smart. Heís not an all world defender yet. But he isnít Harden bad at all

If you think heís Harden bad on d you havenít watched him play

ewing
12-31-2018, 09:15 AM
You need to watch because your only watching a box score. Luka defends SF/PFs he actually holds his own. Heís not a terrible defender. Certainly not Harden bad

And if your basing that off Stats. And stats say Harden > Luka on D then we really need to re evaluate these defensive metrics. Because Luka is not Harden bad. He does a decent job staying in front of his man using his body and is smart. Heís not an all world defender yet. But he isnít Harden bad at all

If you think heís Harden bad on d you havenít watched him play

White guy = bad defender. Everyone knows this


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

FlashBolt
12-31-2018, 04:38 PM
My real take on this is Ben's lack of shooting but also, I really don't see where Ben can improve much on other parts of his game. I'm not saying he won't play better but the ceiling of improvement is simply lower than Luka - who I believe can improve on many parts of his game. It was the same thing with Blake Griffin. He isn't much better than he was during his earlier seasons. You can argue he's actually gotten worse because he has moved away from what made him an effective player. Players who have that "do it all game" are amazing in the early years but when you expect improvement from them, it's tough to see where the improvement comes from if they aren't scoring the ball more efficiently. Same thing with Lonzo. He's already a very good rebounder, passer, and defender. His ceiling will always be limited to exactly that if he doesn't start improving his shot and scoring. Lonzo's already a better rebounder, passer, and defender than Curry is. But he's not close to being the player Curry is just because Curry's shooting and scoring is much more valuable. That's going to be Ben's problem as well.

More-Than-Most
01-01-2019, 02:12 AM
You need to watch because your only watching a box score. Luka defends SF/PFs he actually holds his own. Heís not a terrible defender. Certainly not Harden bad

And if your basing that off Stats. And stats say Harden > Luka on D then we really need to re evaluate these defensive metrics. Because Luka is not Harden bad. He does a decent job staying in front of his man using his body and is smart. Heís not an all world defender yet. But he isnít Harden bad at all

If you think heís Harden bad on d you havenít watched him play

every defensive metric points to luka being an awful defender... Not just plus/minus... Literally every metric against every area he is a bad defender. It was pretty much known before he started this year as his 1 massive issue and he is proving that right

More-Than-Most
01-01-2019, 02:24 AM
White guy = bad defender. Everyone knows this


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

except porz and last years TJ Mconnell i guess.. Both of the gasol brothers and probably like 3 others guys you are mostly right lol

More-Than-Most
01-01-2019, 02:35 AM
and again we are comparing 2 players... 1 on his 2nd year and 1 on his first that is a rookie but has actual euro exp and its not close on defense... Ben simmons is one of the better defenders in basketball and I dont get why people ignore this but assume 1 has a higher cieling because of shooting.. its just the same people having hate for the sixers when literally every stat except 3 point pct points to ben simmons by quite a bit.

https://thesixersense.com/2018/10/20/philadelphia-76ers-ben-simmons-becoming-best-defensive-point-guard/

https://sixerswire.usatoday.com/2018/12/02/sixers-jimmy-butler-ben-simmons-bets-defense/


Ben will never have the range of luka but luka will never defense/drive/pass/rebound like ben does.

zookman65
01-01-2019, 07:50 AM
no no it isnt. He is one of the worst defenders in the NBA this year... Think about something... Harden is a bad defender this year and even harden is putting up a better defensive year than luka.

Actually you are wrong. His advanced analytics show that he has a net negative effect (good) on defensive shot effect. Data over subjectivity and your "eye test". He is not great but he is a little better than neutral. More than makes up for it with his shot making and game control as the offense is and will flow through Luka more as time goes on.

Heediot
01-01-2019, 08:26 AM
and again we are comparing 2 players... 1 on his 2nd year and 1 on his first that is a rookie but has actual euro exp and its not close on defense... Ben simmons is one of the better defenders in basketball and I dont get why people ignore this but assume 1 has a higher cieling because of shooting.. its just the same people having hate for the sixers when literally every stat except 3 point pct points to ben simmons by quite a bit.

https://thesixersense.com/2018/10/20/philadelphia-76ers-ben-simmons-becoming-best-defensive-point-guard/

https://sixerswire.usatoday.com/2018/12/02/sixers-jimmy-butler-ben-simmons-bets-defense/


Ben will never have the range of luka but luka will never defense/drive/pass/rebound like ben does.

I'm on the fence as it is too early in their careers. Still you can't discount the lack of fear of failure in Doncic's game vs. a bit of the opposite in some aspects of Simmons' game. Mental toughness and focus(blocking out outside noise) is big in sports imo. Simmons is a good 2 and a half years older as well, so we will see, my personal bias leans toward luka (as I've been watching/hyping him since his first days in the euroleague) I will give it more time though as everyone develops differently and as you said Luka has more pro experience.

Rivera
01-01-2019, 09:37 AM
every defensive metric points to luka being an awful defender... Not just plus/minus... Literally every metric against every area he is a bad defender. It was pretty much known before he started this year as his 1 massive issue and he is proving that right

Yea then we need to re evaluate because Iím telling you heís not that bad a defender. Heís average to slightly below. He uses his body well and heís smart.

If your metrics is saying heís worse than Harden or heís awful then your metrics suck. Cause if you watch he isnít that bad


Watch him play D. He isnít the greatest but he uses his body and does his best to contest

STRIKERC
01-01-2019, 09:43 AM
Luka is being over rated and Ben under rated. But i understand, he's the shinny new toy at the moment. Let's revisit this thread in a year.

NetsPaint
01-01-2019, 04:21 PM
Right NOW, do you think the Sixers would succeed more in the Playoffs with Ben Simmons or Rondo? Rondo is a better shooter, and has way more experience, but Ben Simmons is bigger, much younger, and more athletic.

I haven't seen enough of Simmons and Luka this season. Saw a few games and highlights of Luka, I've seen his stats, very impressive.

Alayla
01-01-2019, 05:01 PM
Simmons is much better than rondo this is insulting

FlashBolt
01-02-2019, 07:26 AM
Simmons is much better than rondo this is insulting

Sure. But I actually trust Rondo more in late-game scenarios, honestly. Ben's clearly the better player but Rondo might be one of the best situational PG's in the game.

More-Than-Most
01-02-2019, 07:58 AM
Sure. But I actually trust Rondo more in late-game scenarios, honestly. Ben's clearly the better player but Rondo might be one of the best situational PG's in the game.

yet you were wanting lonzo ball in over him a few weeks back before rondo was injured O.O

FlashBolt
01-02-2019, 08:04 AM
yet you were wanting lonzo ball in over him a few weeks back before rondo was injured O.O

It's not even the same debate, bro. Lonzo was starting the season shooting the ball very well and that was the difference for me. If Lonzo could shoot the ball (above 38%), there aren't many PG's I'd take over him if I wanted a championship squad.

More-Than-Most
01-02-2019, 08:34 AM
It's not even the same debate, bro. Lonzo was starting the season shooting the ball very well and that was the difference for me. If Lonzo could shoot the ball (above 38%), there aren't many PG's I'd take over him if I wanted a championship squad.

So because he shot the ball well for a few games to start the year you think that means he is the better option over a guy you consider as one of the best situational PG in the game on what was a playoff team even though he was horrid last year? Sorry I just find some of these takes hilarious and i am not even a ben simmons guy.

Fun note it was 5 whole games to start the year before he literally went to the *******... do you want to know what his 4th quarter shooting was because if we are speaking situational that should be hilarious... Again its not just you but its annoying when we dont use the same justification for other players which by the way i agree with with you in terms of taking rondo over Ben late in games because Rondo is probably 1 of the smarter floor generals in basketball but id also take him in the 4th over everyone not named Lebron on the lakers in the 4th/embiid and butler on the sixers and anyone not named kyrie on the celtics just to name a few.

FlashBolt
01-02-2019, 09:16 AM
So because he shot the ball well for a few games to start the year you think that means he is the better option over a guy you consider as one of the best situational PG in the game on what was a playoff team even though he was horrid last year? Sorry I just find some of these takes hilarious and i am not even a ben simmons guy.

Fun note it was 5 whole games to start the year before he literally went to the *******... do you want to know what his 4th quarter shooting was because if we are speaking situational that should be hilarious... Again its not just you but its annoying when we dont use the same justification for other players which by the way i agree with with you in terms of taking rondo over Ben late in games because Rondo is probably 1 of the smarter floor generals in basketball but id also take him in the 4th over everyone not named Lebron on the lakers in the 4th/embiid and butler on the sixers and anyone not named kyrie on the celtics just to name a few.

? I said would take Lonzo over Rondo that particular time. **** changes. I'm not sure what you're confused about. The main difference between Rondo and Lonzo that helps Lonzo is that he is a taller guard and he doesn't need the ball as much as Rondo does. At that particular time, as I've stated, Lonzo shot the ball above 40% and was playing well overall. Why is it you think Ben Simmons has no flaws or something? It's entirely possible for Lonzo to be better at some aspects than Rondo and some where Rondo might be better than Ben. In late game situations, I'm not particularly a fan of Ben and I think Raptors, Milwaukee, or Celtics will exploit Ben's lack of shooting if they meet in the playoffs. Rondo is one of the best at making a play off a timeout and in late game situations. He's just far more experienced than Ben, that's all. If you have a problem with that, find some evidence that shows otherwise.

Rivera
01-02-2019, 10:51 AM
every defensive metric points to luka being an awful defender... Not just plus/minus... Literally every metric against every area he is a bad defender. It was pretty much known before he started this year as his 1 massive issue and he is proving that right

now that im at work, I can answer this better

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1XLPzNxUoE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJ4TSvKxklo - youll see a possseion or 2 of Luka being lazy and just putting his hands up but you will also see a few possessions of Luka being active, Luka getting to the right spot, and using his body

and using context with your "hes really terrible" defensive metrics

your favorite RPM

I took the liberty of taking all 86 players on ESPNS RPM for small forwards, i filtered 20min+ a game for that position that left me with a total of 51 players.

When i filtered Luka he was 27. A little below average but not Harden terrible

Tg11
01-02-2019, 01:07 PM
Luka Doncic is a star he is an All Star

Redrum187
01-02-2019, 02:09 PM
every defensive metric points to luka being an awful defender... Not just plus/minus... Literally every metric against every area he is a bad defender. It was pretty much known before he started this year as his 1 massive issue and he is proving that right

Granted basketball defensive stats are not quantifiable as other sports, but I'm willing to look at what you're talking about. I'm unable to find anything showing he's "an awful defender". Can you post the defensive metrics you're using and provide links?

Tg11
01-02-2019, 02:23 PM
Luka not only has a jump shot but he can actually create not just offensively but defensively as well; watch Doncic become a bigger star than Ben in the next 5 years

STRIKERC
01-02-2019, 06:06 PM
Luka not only has a jump shot but he can actually create not just offensively but defensively as well; watch Doncic become a bigger star than Ben in the next 5 years

I can almost guarantee you that's not going to happen.
I'm seriously starting to question the basketball knowledge of some of you guys in this forum.

Luka will always be below average defensively. He always will.
If, and i know it's a big if, but if Ben ever gets a reliable jump shot, he's unarguable. And defensively he's only going to get better as well. That is a Championship caliber player.

And this is coming from a frustrated Sixers fan. Frustrated with Ben's lack of a jump shot.

STRIKERC
01-02-2019, 06:12 PM
Isn't there a thread in this forum questioning if James Harden is a superstar?

I'm guessing that question came up because of the choke job he's being putting up in the playoff.
Defensively weak star players rarely win the chip in the NBA.

valade16
01-02-2019, 06:19 PM
I can almost guarantee you that's not going to happen.
I'm seriously starting to question the basketball knowledge of some of you guys in this forum.

Luka will always be below average defensively. He always will.
If, and i know it's a big if, but if Ben ever gets a reliable jump shot, he's unarguable. And defensively he's only going to get better as well. That is a Championship caliber player.

And this is coming from a frustrated Sixers fan. Frustrated with Ben's lack of a jump shot.

At this point I think there's a better chance of Luka becoming a good defensive player than of Simmons becoming a good shooter.

STRIKERC
01-02-2019, 06:34 PM
At this point I think there's a better chance of Luka becoming a good defensive player than of Simmons becoming a good shooter.

Has there ever been any basketball player who started out with below average lateral quickness become a good defensive player? I can't think of one.

There has been guys who have won with a great deal of help ala Paul Pierce, Nowitzki. They never morphed into good defenders.

I know of a few guys who started out with very little range who became cornerstones of their championship teams.

Redrum187
01-02-2019, 06:37 PM
At this point I think there's a better chance of Luka becoming a good defensive player than of Simmons becoming a good shooter.

As of this moment, Luka's defense is worlds better than Ben's shot as well.

He does struggle with small and athletic point guards but he does well against 2-4. He isn't Kawhi Leonard, but he isn't like James Harden on defense like many frustrated Sixer fans are trying to make Luka out to be.

STRIKERC
01-02-2019, 06:40 PM
As of this moment, Luka's defense is worlds better than Ben's shot as well.

He does struggle with small and athletic point guards but he does well against 2-4. He isn't Kawhi Leonard, but he isn't like James Harden on defense like many frustrated Sixer fans are trying to make Luka out to be.

We are not trying to make him out to be anything. It's actually the opposite, bro.
This whole thread was started to make Ben look worse than he actually is. "We" trying to help you guys realize the guy he's being compared to has his flaws as well.

valade16
01-02-2019, 06:48 PM
Has there ever been any basketball player who started out with below average lateral quickness become a good defensive player? I can't think of one.

There has been guys who have won with a great deal of help ala Paul Pierce, Nowitzki. They never morphed into good defenders.

I know of a few guys who started out with very little range who became cornerstones of their championship teams.

Has there ever been any basketball player who started out this bad at shooting who became a good shooter? I can't think of one.

Rivera
01-02-2019, 06:55 PM
Has there ever been any basketball player who started out with below average lateral quickness become a good defensive player? I can't think of one.

There has been guys who have won with a great deal of help ala Paul Pierce, Nowitzki. They never morphed into good defenders.

I know of a few guys who started out with very little range who became cornerstones of their championship teams.

Kyle Anderson - Former Spur, now a Grizz

ewing
01-02-2019, 06:58 PM
Kyle Anderson - Former Spur, now a Grizz

He's only 1/2 white so he isn't that slow

Redrum187
01-02-2019, 07:37 PM
Has there ever been any basketball player who started out with below average lateral quickness become a good defensive player? I can't think of one.

There has been guys who have won with a great deal of help ala Paul Pierce, Nowitzki. They never morphed into good defenders.

I know of a few guys who started out with very little range who became cornerstones of their championship teams.

Prime Dirk Nowitzki (post 2006) was a really good defender in spite of being heavy footed. His length allowed him to cover ground. There is a myth that Dirk was always a poor defender, ignore my testimony of visually seeing just about every game he has played, but even the defensive metrics (which I'm not a huge favor of in the first place) illustrate that he was easily above average defensively.

Similarly, Luka is long for his position. The difference between Dirk and Luka is that Luka has better lateral movement and his body will physically develop from what it is now which ought to improve his defense. I also see Luka exert more energy on that side of the floor as he builds a reputation as a hustle player. Dirk wasn't a work horse hustle player, but he was nevertheless an underrated defender.

There really is a "White guy is bad defensively" stereotype that cannot be shaken off it seems.

Redrum187
01-02-2019, 07:39 PM
He's only 1/2 white so he isn't that slow

:laugh:

zookman65
01-02-2019, 09:51 PM
Any nonsesne that Luka is a poor defender isnt backed up by any of the advanced stats that you can all bother looking up. He is basically a neutral to slightly above neutral defender especially for a rookie. What really sticks out though is Luka's points added are so far divergent from the mean of other rookies form an O perspective that he very much sticks out from the crowd. Also should be noticed that Trae Young is a huge drag from a D perspective especially since he isnt a big positive on the offensive points added side of the ledger. Luka is great and it is borne out by advanced analytics plus the fancy eyeball test.

See graph below:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dv6ohR-UUAETAuo.jpg:large

More-Than-Most
01-03-2019, 12:01 AM
He's only 1/2 white so he isn't that slow

:laugh: sometimes you are glorious

More-Than-Most
01-03-2019, 12:03 AM
real talk after the last few games i can say ben is tired of this ****... he is taking jumpers left and right and balling... clearly he is pissed.

TheDish87
01-03-2019, 09:49 AM
i wish hed stop taking jumpers. its hard to watch, it looks like he never took one before. Wait til next year after a full off season of dedication to working on it.

Rivera
01-03-2019, 10:04 AM
real talk after the last few games i can say ben is tired of this ****... he is taking jumpers left and right and balling... clearly he is pissed.

link me. i didnt watch the game last night. i saw this post , I went to the box score and the longest "jump shot" was 10 feet. Then I went straight to his game highlights where it said it showed every basket and didnt see a formal jump shot.

can you link me please to this jumpers hes taking left and right?

warfelg
01-03-2019, 10:16 AM
link me. i didnt watch the game last night. i saw this post , I went to the box score and the longest "jump shot" was 10 feet. Then I went straight to his game highlights where it said it showed every basket and didnt see a formal jump shot.

can you link me please to this jumpers hes taking left and right?

Whatís a ďformal jump shotĒ? Lol.

Rivera
01-03-2019, 10:21 AM
Whatís a ďformal jump shotĒ? Lol.

the highlights that i saw was mostly drives, a nice spinning move that ended up in a hook, and free throws. i didnt see an actual jump shot in the highlights or nothing past 10 feet. I admitted i didnt watch the game, i just would like to see it

can you link me?

More-Than-Most
01-03-2019, 10:26 AM
link me. i didnt watch the game last night. i saw this post , I went to the box score and the longest "jump shot" was 10 feet. Then I went straight to his game highlights where it said it showed every basket and didnt see a formal jump shot.

can you link me please to this jumpers hes taking left and right?

the **** is a formal jump shot? its not really about the distance but him taking shots with his shooting motion over just 1 hand tips or lay ups... he took 2 last night in night attempts missing 1... the other was from like 10 feet out like you stated and he shot about 15 plus free throws while holding the ball in the final minutes to take said foul shots.

I legit just tried to find you the miss as well but cant yet. As long as he is shooting with both hands and not just relying on layups i am happy... 2 things i want him shooting and him shooting free throws... I want his nuts to drop and he has been amazing since people starter talking trash

ewing
01-03-2019, 10:37 AM
the **** is a formal jump shot? its not really about the distance but him taking shots with his shooting motion over just 1 hand tips or lay ups... he took 2 last night in night attempts missing 1... the other was from like 10 feet out like you stated and he shot about 15 plus free throws while holding the ball in the final minutes to take said foul shots.

I legit just tried to find you the miss as well but cant yet. As long as he is shooting with both hands and not just relying on layups i am happy... 2 things i want him shooting and him shooting free throws... I want his nuts to drop and he has been amazing since people starter talking trash

Distance absolutely matters. He isn't 6. I used to stand still at baseline center and baseline from about 8 feet and shoot 100 with prefect form everyday and thats a nice drill but if he isn't going outside the paint he still isn't shooting

Rivera
01-03-2019, 10:56 AM
the **** is a formal jump shot? its not really about the distance but him taking shots with his shooting motion over just 1 hand tips or lay ups... he took 2 last night in night attempts missing 1... the other was from like 10 feet out like you stated and he shot about 15 plus free throws while holding the ball in the final minutes to take said foul shots.

I legit just tried to find you the miss as well but cant yet. As long as he is shooting with both hands and not just relying on layups i am happy... 2 things i want him shooting and him shooting free throws... I want his nuts to drop and he has been amazing since people starter talking trash


it is absolutely about distance. thats why the 76ers spacing sucks

and before you and WAR take it out of context and try to make it seem like im saying hes got to take 15 3s, you and WAR know better that I mean 18-20 feet to help your teams spacing so Embiid can go in the post more.

The reason you ***** so much about Embiid hanging around the 3 point line is because its the best spacing the 76ers can have with both Ben/Joel on the floor at the same time because Ben cant shoot from any distance

so dont give me the "its not really about distance"

the highlights i saw wasnt a real jumpshot, at least the makes, it was all drives to the basket, a nice move with a hook at the end, and a free throw.

im just asking to see an actual (or formal) jumpshot not him just driving to the rim or shooting a free throw

Rivera
01-03-2019, 11:02 AM
its okay you 2 trolls who want to focus on "formal" instead of the context of my post or the question i asked that you two werent able to provide for me.

I found it, because I just wanted to see how it looks and I will say I am pleased.

https://twitter.com/Dcorrigan50/status/1080313455872233472

no hesitation, no thought, just straight up pulled in Tobias face. If Ben can do that consistently and make it, that space Tobias gave him will start to shrink and make Ben and the 76ers so much more deadly. I hope he does it more and more

ewing
01-03-2019, 11:13 AM
its okay you 2 trolls who want to focus on "formal" instead of the context of my post or the question i asked that you two werent able to provide for me.

I found it, because I just wanted to see how it looks and I will say I am pleased.

https://twitter.com/Dcorrigan50/status/1080313455872233472

no hesitation, no thought, just straight up pulled in Tobias face. If Ben can do that consistently and make it, that space Tobias gave him will start to shrink and make Ben and the 76ers so much more deadly. I hope he does it more and more

He's shooting them all the time on a 8 foot hoop

Rivera
01-03-2019, 11:38 AM
He's shooting them all the time on a 8 foot hoop

i think its hilarious we celebrate Ben for taking a jump shot even if he misses it being hes been in the league 3 years :laugh:

warfelg
01-03-2019, 11:49 AM
its okay you 2 trolls who want to focus on "formal" instead of the context of my post or the question i asked that you two werent able to provide for me.

I found it, because I just wanted to see how it looks and I will say I am pleased.

https://twitter.com/Dcorrigan50/status/1080313455872233472

no hesitation, no thought, just straight up pulled in Tobias face. If Ben can do that consistently and make it, that space Tobias gave him will start to shrink and make Ben and the 76ers so much more deadly. I hope he does it more and more

Itís not trolling to ask what a ďformal jumperĒ is. Lol. Iím legit asking. Are you talking a spot up? Dribble rhythm? Turn around? Fade-away?

I made no comments on distance because, in case you havenít noticed, I do agree with you that he needs to, I just disagree in the manner of how.

Rivera
01-03-2019, 12:11 PM
Itís not trolling to ask what a ďformal jumperĒ is. Lol. Iím legit asking. Are you talking a spot up? Dribble rhythm? Turn around? Fade-away?

I made no comments on distance because, in case you havenít noticed, I do agree with you that he needs to, I just disagree in the manner of how.

i just want to see a jumper, like i posted with the turn around or the pull up, those I was impressed and pleased. I just said formal, because when you look at the box score, they say "10 foot jump shots" but when i saw the highlight video, i didnt see one jumper. I saw runners, one hook, layups and free throws. not necessarily a real jumper like the box score is.

i just want to see any video in game of Ben attempting a real jumper, not whatever jump shot the espn box score said he took that i couldnt find.

ewing
01-03-2019, 01:16 PM
i think its hilarious we celebrate Ben for taking a jump shot even if he misses it being hes been in the league 3 years :laugh:

next year he will be on the 9 foot rim and then he will try the 10 foot but only in practice year 5. Normal progression

TheDish87
01-03-2019, 02:35 PM
the highlights that i saw was mostly drives, a nice spinning move that ended up in a hook, and free throws. i didnt see an actual jump shot in the highlights or nothing past 10 feet. I admitted i didnt watch the game, i just would like to see it

can you link me?

why would you see a missed jump shots in highlights? he hasnt been taking them left and right, not sure what hes taking about but hes took a noticeable amount the last few games but just for Simmons standards.

Rivera
01-03-2019, 03:22 PM
why would you see a missed jump shots in highlights? he hasnt been taking them left and right, not sure what hes taking about but hes took a noticeable amount the last few games but just for Simmons standards.

because i want to see the form, i want to see if theres any hesitation, i want to see his confidence, i want to see and anaylze why he made that decision, i want to see how many he really took compared to a box score, i want to see how much better he gets at it as he continues to shoot it.

these are things that I want to see. it may not be the same to you, or mean the same to you. and i understand theres not many highlights of misses but i do know its the internet, and there is someone who may have a video of every ben simmons stat flashy or not. hell i found one of a miss and posted it

again its for me, its for my knowledge and I want to see it to have it in my memory bank

Rivera
01-03-2019, 03:23 PM
i also dont know what left and right means. whats left and right? 1 to 2 a game? 5 to 7 a game? i admitted i didnt watch the game so im not going to pretend i did, which is why im asking, and im also asking for a few highlights so i can see everything i posted above

More-Than-Most
01-03-2019, 07:46 PM
This has all confirmed one thing... Ben simmons who is having a monster 2nd year after having a sick ROY is now hella underrated... Its always the tatums/mitchells and now duncic who are getting the hype but not coming close the the year that ben had as a ROY and none of them can touch bens defense... Next year it will be someone else. Ben simmons is the 3rd best defensive Point Guard in the NBA this year with marcus smart being the clear as day number 1.


Really think about this... The way tatum and mitchell this year... Had simmons had a let down year he would be destroyed but we dont hear a peep about those dudes. It amazes me.

Heediot
01-03-2019, 07:52 PM
Really think about this... The way tatum and mitchell this year... Had simmons had a let down year he would be destroyed but we dont hear a peep about those dudes. It amazes me.

Flip Tatum for Simmons and both teams might be better. Celtics need more rim attacking, Tatum provides more spacing.

FlashBolt
01-03-2019, 07:54 PM
This has all confirmed one thing... Ben simmons who is having a monster 2nd year after having a sick ROY is now hella underrated... Its always the tatums/mitchells and now duncic who are getting the hype but not coming close the the year that ben had as a ROY and none of them can touch bens defense... Next year it will be someone else. Ben simmons is the 3rd best defensive Point Guard in the NBA this year with marcus smart being the clear as day number 1.


Really think about this... The way tatum and mitchell this year... Had simmons had a let down year he would be destroyed but we dont hear a peep about those dudes. It amazes me.

He's not underrated at all. You're confusing what people expected he would be vs what he is. He really hasn't taken the improvement some expected and that has also happened with Donovan Mitchell/Tatum as well. If anything, he might have been overrated last season as well because we judged him as a rookie and thought it was the greatest thing since Magic due to the similarities in their game. Dude, I'm taking Luka over Ben right now and the future. I'm salivating at thinking what Luka would be able to do with Embiid. Luka gives Embiid the floor spacing he needs so Embiid doesn't have to do it himself and because Luka is also unselfish, I don't think you would see a huge difference in terms of their passing. Ben Simmons on the Mavs? Ehhh, I don't think he does better than the situation he is in now.

Heediot
01-03-2019, 07:56 PM
Sixer fans are going hard to defend Simmons. No ones under-rating Simmons, people are just pointing out something he needs to work on to reach his full potential. Nothing wrong with constructive criticism. I am sure Doncic/Mavs fans know Luka has some flaws too, but the sensitivity level isn't as high as Sixer fans.

FlashBolt
01-03-2019, 08:00 PM
Sixer fans are going hard to defend Simmons. No ones under-rating Simmons, people are just pointing out something he needs to work on to reach his full potential. Nothing wrong with constructive criticism. I am sure Doncic/Mavs fans know Luka has some flaws too, but the sensitivity level isn't as high as Sixer fans.

Bingo. There also isn't enough Mavs fans to rant or defend Luka so it's difficult to pinpoint but Philly fans are really sticking with Ben hard here just like they did with Fultz. I'll give it to them, they are damn loyal to their players.

Redrum187
01-03-2019, 09:01 PM
Just because I would rather bang Kate Beckinsale over Megan Fox doesn't mean Megan Fox is ugly. I would love to bang Megan Fox... but Kate Beckinsale is my dream girl.

Someone taking Luka over Ben doesn't mean that Ben sucks... both are amazing young players. Luka just has more game as well as potential with what we have seen so far.

Redrum187
01-03-2019, 09:02 PM
Just because I would rather bang Kate Beckinsale over Megan Fox doesn't mean Megan Fox is ugly. I would love to bang Megan Fox... but Kate Beckinsale is my dream girl.

Someone taking Luka over Ben doesn't mean that Ben sucks... both are amazing young players. Luka just has more game as well as potential with what we have seen so far.

By the way, Luka and his mother are hotter than both Kate Beckinsale and Megan Fox.

Rivera
01-03-2019, 09:17 PM
This has all confirmed one thing... Ben simmons who is having a monster 2nd year after having a sick ROY is now hella underrated... Its always the tatums/mitchells and now duncic who are getting the hype but not coming close the the year that ben had as a ROY and none of them can touch bens defense... Next year it will be someone else. Ben simmons is the 3rd best defensive Point Guard in the NBA this year with marcus smart being the clear as day number 1.


Really think about this... The way tatum and mitchell this year... Had simmons had a let down year he would be destroyed but we dont hear a peep about those dudes. It amazes me.

Yooooo I love you. I love how you avoided every quote since yesterday and Just spinned it into a false narrative :laugh:

zookman65
01-03-2019, 10:11 PM
Just because I would rather bang Kate Beckinsale over Megan Fox doesn't mean Megan Fox is ugly. I would love to bang Megan Fox... but Kate Beckinsale is my dream girl.

Someone taking Luka over Ben doesn't mean that Ben sucks... both are amazing young players. Luka just has more game as well as potential with what we have seen so far.

I will tell you what - Kate Beckinsale in "Serendipity" was peak Kate in all her glory. Good film.

More-Than-Most
01-04-2019, 01:04 AM
Yooooo I love you. I love how you avoided every quote since yesterday and Just spinned it into a false narrative :laugh:

i will post more when i read it but i was asked to not push certain things to much and derail threads so i try and stay away from RPM arguments etc or id get into it with that. Why do you think I havent mentioned it at all lately?

AntiG
01-05-2019, 12:13 AM
Luka easily.

zookman65
01-05-2019, 04:01 PM
The thread where 2 guys cant be good at the same time. If I needed to catch up in a hurry I would choose Luka. He is good at shooting the basket ball. If I had a lead and wanted to lock down on the other team I would choose Ben. He is good at defending and good within 6 inches of the rim on offense. Both players are excellent so lets cut this **** out.

ewing
01-05-2019, 06:17 PM
The thread where 2 guys cant be good at the same time. If I needed to catch up in a hurry I would choose Luka. He is good at shooting the basket ball. If I had a lead and wanted to lock down on the other team I would choose Ben. He is good at defending and good within 6 inches of the rim on offense. Both players are excellent so lets cut this **** out.

Who would you take first Eric Snow or Micheal Jordan? Better?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Alayla
01-05-2019, 11:02 PM
This thread has not aged well.