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MILLERHIGHLIFE
12-20-2018, 02:16 PM
Group A

#1 Giannis
#2 AD
#3 Curry
#4 LeBron

http://tradevalue.theringer.com/

Spin the page to flip through the rest.

mightybosstone
12-20-2018, 02:31 PM
Surprise, surprise: A Bill Simmons column where he drastically overrates a Celtic player. I love the guy, but Tatum in the top 10? Really?

And you guys can feel free to call me a homer here, but Harden is a perennial MVP candidate at this point, he's still only 29 and is locked in for another four and a half years. How is he not in the top 5 in the same conversation as Curry and Lebron? I guarantee if Boston, Philly or Dallas calls Morey right now and says "We'll give you filler and (Tatum, Simmons or Doncic) for Harden," he's hanging up the phone. Maybe he pauses for a minute on Doncic, but he doesn't think twice about Tatum or Simmons without a lot more value being thrown in.

Aside from Harden and Tatum, I mostly agree with the rest of the top 10. I do think Durant and Kawhi seem a little low, but considering they're free agents in a few months, I get why they're so low.

MILLERHIGHLIFE
12-20-2018, 02:39 PM
Surprise, surprise: A Bill Simmons column where he drastically overrates a Celtic player. I love the guy, but Tatum in the top 10? Really?

And you guys can feel free to call me a homer here, but Harden is a perennial MVP candidate at this point, he's still only 29 and is locked in for another four and a half years. How is he not in the top 5 in the same conversation as Curry and Lebron? I guarantee if Boston, Philly or Dallas calls Morey right now and says "We'll give you filler and (Tatum, Simmons or Doncic) for Harden," he's hanging up the phone. Maybe he pauses for a minute on Doncic, but he doesn't think twice about Tatum or Simmons without a lot more value being thrown in.

Aside from Harden and Tatum, I mostly agree with the rest of the top 10. I do think Durant and Kawhi seem a little low, but considering they're free agents in a few months, I get why they're so low.

I know your a Rockets fan. So I don't wanna be doom and gloom. But go read that Howard Beck article in the Giannis thread. He picks apart all the top teams. Calls Rockets rickety or something. Probably cause CP3 falling off now on the new contract.

valade16
12-20-2018, 02:51 PM
Surprise, surprise: A Bill Simmons column where he drastically overrates a Celtic player. I love the guy, but Tatum in the top 10? Really?

And you guys can feel free to call me a homer here, but Harden is a perennial MVP candidate at this point, he's still only 29 and is locked in for another four and a half years. How is he not in the top 5 in the same conversation as Curry and Lebron? I guarantee if Boston, Philly or Dallas calls Morey right now and says "We'll give you filler and (Tatum, Simmons or Doncic) for Harden," he's hanging up the phone. Maybe he pauses for a minute on Doncic, but he doesn't think twice about Tatum or Simmons without a lot more value being thrown in.

Aside from Harden and Tatum, I mostly agree with the rest of the top 10. I do think Durant and Kawhi seem a little low, but considering they're free agents in a few months, I get why they're so low.

Well Harden's contract is straight up massive. Every player ahead of him is 25 or younger, so it's mostly based on youth, potential and reasonable salaries. The only 2 exceptions in the Top 10 are Bron and Curry, who are both simply better than Harden.

I also think part of his reasoning on why Houston might be willing to listen to an offer is Morey may think they've reached their ceiling as is between Harden and CP3's massive contracts (and CP3's deteriorating pay).

I agree, Tatum is probably a little too high, but outside him, I can't see a single player where if I were offered Harden for them, I'd accept. Would you really trade an extra 10 years of Doncic for Harden if you're Dallas right now considering Dallas still won't be a contender with Harden? Not to mention the massive amount of money you'd owe Harden for the next 4 years compare to Doncic (Doncic's salary until 2022 is a combined 32 million, Harden's is a combined 200 million).

If I'm Philly I'm not trading Embiid or Simmons for Harden. Would Denver trade Jokic for Harden? Probably not (especially with the contracts).


So if you were one of the other teams, which team would you trade one of the top 10 guys for Harden? Because outside Tatum, I don't think I'd even consider it.

Hawkeye15
12-20-2018, 04:00 PM
his take on Wiggins made me laugh


Andrew Wiggins: I went to a Wolves-Lakers game last month when Wiggins emerged from an in-game coma with a second-quarter dunk. My friend and I turned to each other and said simultaneously, “Forgot he was out there!” Then we looked up and noticed that he had 13 points already. He might have the first 50-point game when a fan says, “Forgot he was out there,” deep in the fourth quarter. He’s only due $147.7 million over this year and the next four, and he’s in the middle of one of the most dramatic statistical free falls of any 23-and-under player ever, so I’m sure it’s fine.

Hawkeye15
12-20-2018, 04:04 PM
Surprise, surprise: A Bill Simmons column where he drastically overrates a Celtic player. I love the guy, but Tatum in the top 10? Really?

And you guys can feel free to call me a homer here, but Harden is a perennial MVP candidate at this point, he's still only 29 and is locked in for another four and a half years. How is he not in the top 5 in the same conversation as Curry and Lebron? I guarantee if Boston, Philly or Dallas calls Morey right now and says "We'll give you filler and (Tatum, Simmons or Doncic) for Harden," he's hanging up the phone. Maybe he pauses for a minute on Doncic, but he doesn't think twice about Tatum or Simmons without a lot more value being thrown in.

Aside from Harden and Tatum, I mostly agree with the rest of the top 10. I do think Durant and Kawhi seem a little low, but considering they're free agents in a few months, I get why they're so low.

Harden is there because to date, what has he shown from a perennial MVP candidate when it really matters? That he will fail. He will be 30 soon, the decline won't be swift with Harden, but he is no longer as valuable long term as a number of other players. All the players above him are younger. His contract is gigantic. And frankly, he is lucky to be listed alongside Durant and KL.

Remember, these aren't player rankings, they are value rankings for a trade. Harden makes a TON of money, is 29, hasn't proven he will ball out when it matters most, and frankly there is better value out there (ie, younger guys already proven who make less money).

Hawkeye15
12-20-2018, 04:04 PM
wtf is Tatum doing in the top 10 hahahaa

Hawkeye15
12-20-2018, 04:07 PM
Well Harden's contract is straight up massive. Every player ahead of him is 25 or younger, so it's mostly based on youth, potential and reasonable salaries. The only 2 exceptions in the Top 10 are Bron and Curry, who are both simply better than Harden.

I also think part of his reasoning on why Houston might be willing to listen to an offer is Morey may think they've reached their ceiling as is between Harden and CP3's massive contracts (and CP3's deteriorating pay).

I agree, Tatum is probably a little too high, but outside him, I can't see a single player where if I were offered Harden for them, I'd accept. Would you really trade an extra 10 years of Doncic for Harden if you're Dallas right now considering Dallas still won't be a contender with Harden? Not to mention the massive amount of money you'd owe Harden for the next 4 years compare to Doncic (Doncic's salary until 2022 is a combined 32 million, Harden's is a combined 200 million).

If I'm Philly I'm not trading Embiid or Simmons for Harden. Would Denver trade Jokic for Harden? Probably not (especially with the contracts).


So if you were one of the other teams, which team would you trade one of the top 10 guys for Harden? Because outside Tatum, I don't think I'd even consider it.

I would trade Andrew Wiggins for Harden.

Vinylman
12-20-2018, 04:08 PM
another stupid list designed to stir debate. Unless he provides a formula it is irrelevant since he couches his BS as formula driven when reality says it is just based on his preferences.

His methodology (read BS) is about as reliable as the Rhythm method is for birth control.

mightybosstone
12-20-2018, 04:11 PM
Well Harden's contract is straight up massive. Every player ahead of him is 25 or younger, so it's mostly based on youth, potential and reasonable salaries. The only 2 exceptions in the Top 10 are Bron and Curry, who are both simply better than Harden.
Is Curry "simply better than Harden" anymore? I agree that historically he has been. But he wasn't last season, and I'm not sure he's better right now. If you look across the board at every single statistical category of note right now, Harden has Curry beat on literally everything aside from scoring efficiency and WS/48. That includes points, assists, boards, steals, PER, BPM and VORP (even with VORP being cumulative and Curry missing time, Harden has a massive edge there).

Factor in that Harden was a little better last year, that Curry has proven to be more injury prone, that Curry is older by nearly a year and a half, and that Curry's contract isn't really much better than Harden's (he's also locked in for less time). Objectively, why should Curry be eight spots higher than Harden on this list?

Lebron I 100 percent agree with you on. Age and contract and regular season production aside, there isn't a player with a postseason resume or a playoff switch that comes anywhere close to Lebron. But with Curry, I just don't get it.


I agree, Tatum is probably a little too high, but outside him, I can't see a single player where if I were offered Harden for them, I'd accept. Would you really trade an extra 10 years of Doncic for Harden if you're Dallas right now considering Dallas still won't be a contender with Harden? Not to mention the massive amount of money you'd owe Harden for the next 4 years compare to Doncic (Doncic's salary until 2022 is a combined 32 million, Harden's is a combined 200 million).

If I'm Philly I'm not trading Embiid or Simmons for Harden. Would Denver trade Jokic for Harden? Probably not (especially with the contracts).

So if you were one of the other teams, which team would you trade one of the top 10 guys for Harden? Because outside Tatum, I don't think I'd even consider it.

OK, but part of the problem there is situational factors. Dallas wouldn't trade Doncic for Harden because Dallas isn't anywhere close to contending even with adding Harden to the roster. Philly probably doesn't deal their guys because they just added Butler, and financially Harden doesn't make sense as a swap with either of their young guys. Positionally, the Nuggets don't get any better by swapping Harden for Jokic. They have plenty of wing talent, but that team doesn't work the same if you just swap those two guys.

HOWEVER, on the flip side, isn't that also true? If you're Daryl Morey, no way would you trade Harden for any of those young guys right now after you just gave Chris Paul that massive contract. It wouldn't make any sense. This whole team is built around winning now, and swapping Harden for a young guy would signal the start of an entire rebuild—something Morey has never really done.

Honestly, I think you could make a damn good case for Philly dealing Simmons for Harden, though. If you swap Simmons for Harden (assuming Philly could afford it), that team is ridiculous on paper and is easily the No. 1 seed out East. I think he and Butler would play off of each other well, and having a flexible big like Embiid would make them so tough to defend.

mightybosstone
12-20-2018, 04:15 PM
Harden is there because to date, what has he shown from a perennial MVP candidate when it really matters? That he will fail. He will be 30 soon, the decline won't be swift with Harden, but he is no longer as valuable long term as a number of other players. All the players above him are younger. His contract is gigantic. And frankly, he is lucky to be listed alongside Durant and KL.
Honestly, Curry is the guy I have a problem with being ranked so far ahead. I can understand the logic behind most of the young guys (aside from Tatum obviously). But Curry should not be eight spots ahead of Harden. Period. Curry is older. Curry also has a history of disappearing in the playoffs when it matters. Curry's contract is also large. If Curry didn't play on the most talented team in arguably the history of the NBA, what would separate him from Harden?

Hawkeye15
12-20-2018, 04:24 PM
Honestly, Curry is the guy I have a problem with being ranked so far ahead. I can understand the logic behind most of the young guys (aside from Tatum obviously). But Curry should not be eight spots ahead of Harden. Period. Curry is older. Curry also has a history of disappearing in the playoffs when it matters. Curry's contract is also large. If Curry didn't play on the most talented team in arguably the history of the NBA, what would separate him from Harden?

I think your last sentence nailed it. He has succeeded, hence the ranking I would guess.

I absolutely think Curry should be in the same tier as Harden when it comes to value.

Hawkeye15
12-20-2018, 04:25 PM
another stupid list designed to stir debate. Unless he provides a formula it is irrelevant since he couches his BS as formula driven when reality says it is just based on his preferences.

His methodology (read BS) is about as reliable as the Rhythm method is for birth control.

yeah but it's funny.

valade16
12-20-2018, 04:35 PM
Is Curry "simply better than Harden" anymore? I agree that historically he has been. But he wasn't last season, and I'm not sure he's better right now. If you look across the board at every single statistical category of note right now, Harden has Curry beat on literally everything aside from scoring efficiency and WS/48. That includes points, assists, boards, steals, PER, BPM and VORP (even with VORP being cumulative and Curry missing time, Harden has a massive edge there).

Factor in that Harden was a little better last year, that Curry has proven to be more injury prone, that Curry is older by nearly a year and a half, and that Curry's contract isn't really much better than Harden's (he's also locked in for less time). Objectively, why should Curry be eight spots higher than Harden on this list?

Lebron I 100 percent agree with you on. Age and contract and regular season production aside, there isn't a player with a postseason resume or a playoff switch that comes anywhere close to Lebron. But with Curry, I just don't get it.

OK, but part of the problem there is situational factors. Dallas wouldn't trade Doncic for Harden because Dallas isn't anywhere close to contending even with adding Harden to the roster. Philly probably doesn't deal their guys because they just added Butler, and financially Harden doesn't make sense as a swap with either of their young guys. Positionally, the Nuggets don't get any better by swapping Harden for Jokic. They have plenty of wing talent, but that team doesn't work the same if you just swap those two guys.

HOWEVER, on the flip side, isn't that also true? If you're Daryl Morey, no way would you trade Harden for any of those young guys right now after you just gave Chris Paul that massive contract. It wouldn't make any sense. This whole team is built around winning now, and swapping Harden for a young guy would signal the start of an entire rebuild—something Morey has never really done.

Honestly, I think you could make a damn good case for Philly dealing Simmons for Harden, though. If you swap Simmons for Harden (assuming Philly could afford it), that team is ridiculous on paper and is easily the No. 1 seed out East. I think he and Butler would play off of each other well, and having a flexible big like Embiid would make them so tough to defend.

Because all of things from Curry have gone down as a result of KD joining, and everytime KD misses time Curry's numbers explode back up to pre-KD levels. Curry is better than Harden. Or put another way, I think if both were on the open market trade wise, teams would offer more to get Curry.

Yes, I don't think Morey trades Harden because they're in win now mode unless he also decides to trade or somehow unload CP3's contract. I think the reasoning Harden is below the young guys is, that scenario is far more likely than any of the teams with the young players in the Top 10 deciding to trade their player (except AD, who has a ton of value due to his production and age). We could see Morey deciding to retool the roster as early as next year, I think we're a long ways off from Dallas or Philly deciding to trade Doncic or Simmons.

You could make a case for Philly trading Simmons for Harden, but I think it's a remote one. Philly would rather keep the window open for the next 10 years with Embiid/Simmons as opposed to betting it all on the next 4 with Harden/Butler/Embiid IMO.

valade16
12-20-2018, 04:38 PM
Honestly, Curry is the guy I have a problem with being ranked so far ahead. I can understand the logic behind most of the young guys (aside from Tatum obviously). But Curry should not be eight spots ahead of Harden. Period. Curry is older. Curry also has a history of disappearing in the playoffs when it matters. Curry's contract is also large. If Curry didn't play on the most talented team in arguably the history of the NBA, what would separate him from Harden?

Without getting into that giant debate yet again, that's pretty irrelevant in a comparison with Harden, perhaps the only other superstar who can lay claim to having a worse disappearing playoff reputation than Curry.

Hawkeye15
12-20-2018, 04:40 PM
Without getting into that giant debate yet again, that's pretty irrelevant in a comparison with Harden, perhaps the only other superstar who can lay claim to having a worse disappearing playoff reputation than Curry.

I am not sure some understand that part. Harden, has choked more than once, and choked hard. That matters by this point of his career. Can he change it? Sure he can. Win

mightybosstone
12-20-2018, 04:50 PM
Without getting into that giant debate yet again, that's pretty irrelevant in a comparison with Harden, perhaps the only other superstar who can lay claim to having a worse disappearing playoff reputation than Curry.

But that's exactly my point.
- Both guys are 29-30 (Harden is actually younger).
- Both guys have histories of disappearing in the playoffs (Harden's is admittedly worse).
- Both guys are playing on massive contracts. (Harden's is larger, but he's also locked in an extra year).
- Both guys are ridiculous offensive players boasting ridiculous offensive numbers (Curry's better historically, Harden's better the last two seasons).
- Both guys are not good defensively.

So all of that being taken into account, why is Curry worth eight spots than Harden on this list? I just don't get it. If you're going to rank the young guys ahead of Harden, then Curry should be sitting there with him behind the young guys. If Curry deserves to be ranked ahead of the young guys, than Harden should be right there next to him.

And I'm not trying to even argue that Harden belongs ahead of Curry on this list. I think you could make a good case either way, and I don't fault Simmons for ranking Curry ahead of Harden. I fault him for being eight spots ahead when they're so similar in so many ways at this point in their careers.

valade16
12-20-2018, 05:02 PM
But that's exactly my point.
- Both guys are 29-30 (Harden is actually younger).
- Both guys have histories of disappearing in the playoffs (Harden's is admittedly worse).
- Both guys are playing on massive contracts. (Harden's is larger, but he's also locked in an extra year).
- Both guys are ridiculous offensive players boasting ridiculous offensive numbers (Curry's better historically, Harden's better the last two seasons).
- Both guys are not good defensively.

So all of that being taken into account, why is Curry worth eight spots than Harden on this list? I just don't get it. If you're going to rank the young guys ahead of Harden, then Curry should be sitting there with him behind the young guys. If Curry deserves to be ranked ahead of the young guys, than Harden should be right there next to him.

And I'm not trying to even argue that Harden belongs ahead of Curry on this list. I think you could make a good case either way, and I don't fault Simmons for ranking Curry ahead of Harden. I fault him for being eight spots ahead when they're so similar in so many ways at this point in their careers.

I get your point, and I definitely see it. I think it just comes down to I'd imagine more people believe Curry is better than Harden or more positively impacts a team based on his skill set, despite their apparent similarities elsewhere.

All things being equal, if they had a draft now for who would be on each team (like every player was placed back into a draft), I think Curry would go higher than Harden, and not by a spot or two.

Rivera
12-20-2018, 05:48 PM
i mean, i dont hate it. i might switch a few things but overall i dont think its that bad. And I totally get why Tatum is in the top 10

from those in the 10-20 range, theres maybe 2 or 3 players I would consider trading Tatum for

Silent
12-20-2018, 06:01 PM
Surprise, surprise: A Bill Simmons column where he drastically overrates a Celtic player. I love the guy, but Tatum in the top 10? Really?

And you guys can feel free to call me a homer here, but Harden is a perennial MVP candidate at this point, he's still only 29 and is locked in for another four and a half years. How is he not in the top 5 in the same conversation as Curry and Lebron? I guarantee if Boston, Philly or Dallas calls Morey right now and says "We'll give you filler and (Tatum, Simmons or Doncic) for Harden," he's hanging up the phone. Maybe he pauses for a minute on Doncic, but he doesn't think twice about Tatum or Simmons without a lot more value being thrown in.

Aside from Harden and Tatum, I mostly agree with the rest of the top 10. I do think Durant and Kawhi seem a little low, but considering they're free agents in a few months, I get why they're so low.

By GM standards he's top 10. So he has a **** load of value cmo'n luka ain't top 5 lol...

Bostonjorge
12-21-2018, 04:04 AM
Kyrie is closer to Leonard. No way to justify his low spot. “Worth” is not definded in this ranking. Irving is 20 spots lower then the Clippers rookie PG.

Irving’s last year on his contract can’t justify the spot. Kuzma was only a honorable mention and his contract is like $6 million total for this year and the next 3. Total opposite of Irving’s contract.

Saddletramp
12-21-2018, 04:18 AM
Totally misread a post. Whoops.

Scoots
12-21-2018, 10:56 AM
Well Harden's contract is straight up massive. Every player ahead of him is 25 or younger, so it's mostly based on youth, potential and reasonable salaries. The only 2 exceptions in the Top 10 are Bron and Curry, who are both simply better than Harden.

I also think part of his reasoning on why Houston might be willing to listen to an offer is Morey may think they've reached their ceiling as is between Harden and CP3's massive contracts (and CP3's deteriorating pay).

I agree, Tatum is probably a little too high, but outside him, I can't see a single player where if I were offered Harden for them, I'd accept. Would you really trade an extra 10 years of Doncic for Harden if you're Dallas right now considering Dallas still won't be a contender with Harden? Not to mention the massive amount of money you'd owe Harden for the next 4 years compare to Doncic (Doncic's salary until 2022 is a combined 32 million, Harden's is a combined 200 million).

If I'm Philly I'm not trading Embiid or Simmons for Harden. Would Denver trade Jokic for Harden? Probably not (especially with the contracts).


So if you were one of the other teams, which team would you trade one of the top 10 guys for Harden? Because outside Tatum, I don't think I'd even consider it.

This. All of this.

lakerfan85
12-21-2018, 11:05 AM
When did people start taking what Bill Simmons says as the holy grail??

zookman65
12-22-2018, 04:49 PM
When did people start taking what Bill Simmons says as the holy grail??

Its not. Just a fairly intelligent view by someone(Bill) whom follows it very closely. Hard to get any ranking system spot on as there will inevitably be some oversights and some slight overranking of celtics :)

tredigs
12-23-2018, 06:04 AM
Its not. Just a fairly intelligent view by someone(Bill) whom follows it very closely. Hard to get any ranking system spot on as there will inevitably be some oversights and some slight overranking of celtics :)

I'm an old old fan of Bill and still follow him/listen to his podcasts, but he can safely not be take seriously what so ever when it comes to the NBA at this point. I would best describe him as a very passionate casual fan.