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More-Than-Most
12-14-2018, 06:05 AM
The cavs are on pace for a 20 win season at best after winning over 50 games the year before... The lakers who won less than 30 games are likely gonna finish 50 games over 500... All those years people said the cavs without lebron would be a playoff team yet this has shown once again how Lebron james is the most valuable player in the world maybe the most valuable player EVER. The value this guy brings to any team is far above anyone else and we have seen it before and ignored it once he left the cavs to go to the heat... Well he left the heat and look at how they fell off and now he has left the cavs again and gone to the lakers and yet the facts speak for themselves.... This dude might be the most valuable player to any team ever in any sport.

Lakers + Giants
12-14-2018, 06:20 AM
We won 35 games. Show us some respect.

More-Than-Most
12-14-2018, 07:19 AM
We won 35 games. Show us some respect.

:laugh: and now you will win 50 plus

ewing
12-14-2018, 07:42 AM
Everyone said they would be great. People thought they would be even better when love went down


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Rivera
12-14-2018, 10:19 AM
yea but hes only #5 in RPM. If the Lakers had Paul George or Jokic they would be even better than they are now. They have a better RPM.

ewing
12-14-2018, 10:23 AM
The Pelicans would be bad without AD

Hawkeye15
12-14-2018, 10:33 AM
It took me some time to realize this, but as amazing as Lebron is (he literally makes any team a contender), the way you have to construct a team around him since around 2009, really leaves you dead in the water if and when he leaves. You ship away young talent for win now players, you resign role players to inflated deals because they fit with him, you construct a team with minimal other guys who can control an offense, and when he leaves, you are left with a ton of bit parts being overpaid.

LeBron is as good a player as I have ever seen. But he is also unique in what you want to surround him with.

Chronz
12-14-2018, 12:39 PM
It took me some time to realize this, but as amazing as Lebron is (he literally makes any team a contender), the way you have to construct a team around him since around 2009, really leaves you dead in the water if and when he leaves. You ship away young talent for win now players, you resign role players to inflated deals because they fit with him, you construct a team with minimal other guys who can control an offense, and when he leaves, you are left with a ton of bit parts being overpaid.

LeBron is as good a player as I have ever seen. But he is also unique in what you want to surround him with.

Not buying it, he turns crap into Ws. He's only unique in that he requires so little to win.

Hawkeye15
12-14-2018, 01:25 PM
Not buying it, he turns crap into Ws. He's only unique in that he requires so little to win.

I started off my entire post with your sentiments. But, I do buy it. He stunts growth of young players at times, he requires the ball all night, and what fits best next to him are complimentary pieces, and guys willing to take small usage. Irving ran away like hell. Love is a beta fish so he fit perfect. Bosh was Love prior to Love.

My post is more so what the evolution of LeBron has kicked out. Part of that may be he had no choice but to do everything his first few years, so he developed into what he did.

But it's true. Any team he has left was basically a bunch of role players making a ton of money. The reason-when you have LeBron that is what you want. A lot of guys filling specific roles.

valade16
12-14-2018, 01:35 PM
Not buying it, he turns crap into Ws. He's only unique in that he requires so little to win.

Of course he does. But he also molds the team into one that is completely reliant on his skillset. Is it any surprise that the only other two quality ball handling playmakers he ever played with (Wade and Kyrie), one had to dial back and the other left in frustration? If you handle the ball a lot or initiate the offense or need the ball to be effective, you will not have a great time playing with LeBron. If you can thrive without the ball, you'll do well.

IKnowHoops
12-14-2018, 02:10 PM
Of course he does. But he also molds the team into one that is completely reliant on his skillset. Is it any surprise that the only other two quality ball handling playmakers he ever played with (Wade and Kyrie), one had to dial back and the other left in frustration? If you handle the ball a lot or initiate the offense or need the ball to be effective, you will not have a great time playing with LeBron. If you can thrive without the ball, you'll do well.

Lakers still got all there young guys minus Julius. They went from not close to playoffs to contender. A lot of pundits thought LA would struggle to make playoffs because of the young guys. Bron has Kuzma playing like a G. You make changes not because Lebron Nedís them, but because the team needs them to win... put him on GS no changes necessary, they already stacked.

ewing
12-14-2018, 02:15 PM
Heís good but highly overrated


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valade16
12-14-2018, 02:20 PM
Lakers still got all there young guys minus Julius. They went from not close to playoffs to contender. A lot of pundits thought LA would struggle to make playoffs because of the young guys. Bron has Kuzma playing like a G. You make changes not because Lebron Nedís them, but because the team needs them to win... put him on GS no changes necessary, they already stacked.

I think if he were placed on GS he would alter the dynamics of that team. It's just who he is as a player. KD recently talked about it, Bosh has talked about it, Love has talked about it, JR Smith has talked about it. When everybody who plays against him or with him is saying the same thing, it starts to gain weight in terms of veracity.

And none of what I'm saying is meant to take away from his greatness as a player. I think he's 1B to MJ's 1A and I don't think there's any player in history that can add wins from a bad team to a good one quite like him.

ewing
12-14-2018, 02:56 PM
I think if he were placed on GS he would alter the dynamics of that team. It's just who he is as a player. KD recently talked about it, Bosh has talked about it, Love has talked about it, JR Smith has talked about it. When everybody who plays against him or with him is saying the same thing, it starts to gain weight in terms of veracity.

And none of what I'm saying is meant to take away from his greatness as a player. I think he's 1B to MJ's 1A and I don't think there's any player in history that can add wins from a bad team to a good one quite like him.

No he isn't. He is a compiler. The best in the league or close to it for a very long time but never completely head and shoulders above all competition.

Hawkeye15
12-14-2018, 03:32 PM
No he isn't. He is a compiler. The best in the league or close to it for a very long time but never completely head and shoulders above all competition.

you can't possibly be serious haha. Even if you are, you are dead wrong. LeBron is the best player we have seen outside Jordan. No logical debate can be made against that.

Hawkeye15
12-14-2018, 03:32 PM
Of course he does. But he also molds the team into one that is completely reliant on his skillset. Is it any surprise that the only other two quality ball handling playmakers he ever played with (Wade and Kyrie), one had to dial back and the other left in frustration? If you handle the ball a lot or initiate the offense or need the ball to be effective, you will not have a great time playing with LeBron. If you can thrive without the ball, you'll do well.

LeBron-where stars get pissed, and role players get paid

ewing
12-14-2018, 03:46 PM
you can't possibly be serious haha. Even if you are, you are dead wrong. LeBron is the best player we have seen outside Jordan. No logical debate can be made against that.

B/c he is a compiler. He was not head and shoulder better then the comp. Peak versus peak you can easily make a argument for Bird or Shaq.... They just didn't maintain that peak for near as long. Maybe if he learned to shoot a jump shot in his 20s.

Hawkeye15
12-14-2018, 03:48 PM
B/c he is a compiler. He was not head and shoulder better then the comp. Peak versus peak you can easily make a argument for Bird or Shaq.... They just didn't maintain that peak for near as long. Maybe if he learned to shoot a jump shot in his 20s.

You can't make a case for either of them. I mean you can try, sure. Good luck getting anyone to agree with you.

ewing
12-14-2018, 03:59 PM
You can't make a case for either of them. I mean you can try, sure. Good luck getting anyone to agree with you.

Its not hard- Bird best 3 year span: 3 MVPS, two titles, 2 finals MVPs

Hawkeye15
12-14-2018, 04:05 PM
Its not hard- Bird best 3 year span: 3 MVPS, two titles, 2 finals MVPs

how many HOF'ers on his team? How many times was he locking anyone up on defense? Bird has zip case even if you believe his peak was as good as what LeBron has churned out (it's not). Like he might be one of the worst all timers to compare to. LeBron passed him as a SF years ago. Bird is around #9-12 all time.

Hawkeye15
12-14-2018, 04:10 PM
I do forget LeBron got penalized by the league for leaving Cleveland. Even had a few MVP's stolen. But that award is a joke in itself. Steve Nash has more than Shaq.

ewing
12-14-2018, 04:12 PM
how many HOF'ers on his team? How many times was he locking anyone up on defense? Bird has zip case even if you believe his peak was as good as what LeBron has churned out (it's not). Like he might be one of the worst all timers to compare to. LeBron passed him as a SF years ago. Bird is around #9-12 all time.

LeBron is so high b/c of how long he has been this good. Not b/c he was as good or near as good as MJ at his peak. Its quite easy to make a case for peak Bird over peak LeBron.

Hawkeye15
12-14-2018, 04:13 PM
LeBron is so high b/c of how long he has been this good. Not b/c he was as good or near as good as MJ at his peak. Its quite easy to make a case for peak Bird over peak LeBron.

LeBron's peak is the only peak that rivals MJ haha.

I feel like I used to have this conversation 10 times a week, years ago before everyone just finally accepted they were watching a top 1-3 player ever.

Like I said, good luck getting anyone to agree with you man.

Hawkeye15
12-14-2018, 04:14 PM
****ing talking about LeBron like he is Kobe haha

ewing
12-14-2018, 04:21 PM
LeBron's peak is the only peak that rivals MJ haha.

I feel like I used to have this conversation 10 times a week, years ago before everyone just finally accepted they were watching a top 1-3 player ever.

Like I said, good luck getting anyone to agree with you man.

I'm not going to bash my head against the wall to try and convince homers that are unwilling to look at the numbers, accolades, or team success when comparing their peaks.

Hawkeye15
12-14-2018, 04:31 PM
I not going to bash my head against the wall to try and convince homers that are unwilling to look at the numbers, accolades, or team success when comparing their peaks.

yeah LeBron wins all those categories, outside maybe team success, which can be explained so easily a novice can do it.

Not sure your hatred for LeBron allows you to understand what you are watching. I generally respect your opinion, even though I don't agree with it much of the time. Your clearly a long time fan who has seen it all. But you have your preferences that seem to dictate how you look at a player. We all do to some degree.

homers haha. I didn't even give a **** about the guy until the hate started. Haven't given a **** about him since he shut most of you up after winning in Cleveland. meh

Hawkeye15
12-14-2018, 04:33 PM
imagine LeBron having Red as a GM haha. my god

Imagine Bird having Mo Williams as his 2nd best player for any length of time haha

Bird is the one you pick? Cmon man, try harder

valade16
12-14-2018, 04:45 PM
LeBron is so high b/c of how long he has been this good. Not b/c he was as good or near as good as MJ at his peak. Its quite easy to make a case for peak Bird over peak LeBron.

I remember when the argument against LeBron was that although his peak was amazing let's see if he can keep it up.

Hawkeye15
12-14-2018, 04:50 PM
I remember when the argument against LeBron was that although his peak was amazing let's see if he can keep it up.

My memory is a little fuzzy, but around 1998, the same **** was said about Jordan (he isn't the best ever!). Now we consider him untouchable. In 20 years, even the critics will understand LeBron is 1B.

valade16
12-14-2018, 04:53 PM
I'm not going to bash my head against the wall to try and convince homers that are unwilling to look at the numbers, accolades, or team success when comparing their peaks.

What numbers?

Bird 84-86: 26.2 PPG | 10.1 RPG | 6.7 APG | 1.8 SPG | 0.9 BPG | 3.1 TO | 25.5 PER | .573 TS% | .232 WS/48 | 8.5 BPM | 24.5 VORP
Bron 12-14: 27.0 PPG | 7.6 RPG | 6.6 APG | 1.7 SPG | 0.7 BPG | 3.3 TO | 30.5 PER | .633 TS% | .294 WS/48 | 10.4 BPM | 25.3 VORP

Looks like Bron crushes Bird in all advanced metrics and his per game stats are identical, which isn't good for Bird considering the possession difference of the eras (Bron beats Bird in all those numbers per100).

And then looking at the accolades for both during that period:

Bird: 3 MVPS, two titles, 2 finals MVPs
Bron: 2 MVPs, two titles, 2 finals MVPs

Is it the 1 more MVP in a 3 year period that puts Bird ahead? Because Bron has more MVPs than Bird.


So I'm genuinely curious, what numbers are you looking at to say they are equal?

ewing
12-14-2018, 04:53 PM
yeah LeBron wins all those categories, outside maybe team success, which can be explained so easily a novice can do it.

Not sure your hatred for LeBron allows you to understand what you are watching. I generally respect your opinion, even though I don't agree with it much of the time. Your clearly a long time fan who has seen it all. But you have your preferences that seem to dictate how you look at a player. We all do to some degree.

homers haha. I didn't even give a **** about the guy until the hate started. Haven't given a **** about him since he shut most of you up after winning in Cleveland. meh

27/10/ 7 on 51%,40%, and 90% over 3 years with 3 MVPs, 2 rings, and 2 Final MVPs. Probably would have had 3rd ring and finals MVP had he not going hurt in the playoffs. He was a much more versatile scorer, less ball dominate (Kevin McHale wasn't asked to stand in the corner and not get in the way), as good a passer, and an underrated defender. historically there is clearly a case to be made for Bird. Like I said if LeBron learned to shoot when he was in his 20s and still played defense he'd be that Jordanese peak guy. He didn't.

ewing
12-14-2018, 05:05 PM
What numbers?

Bird 84-86: 26.2 PPG | 10.1 RPG | 6.7 APG | 1.8 SPG | 0.9 BPG | 3.1 TO | 25.5 PER | .573 TS% | .232 WS/48 | 8.5 BPM | 24.5 VORP
Bron 12-14: 27.0 PPG | 7.6 RPG | 6.6 APG | 1.7 SPG | 0.7 BPG | 3.3 TO | 30.5 PER | .633 TS% | .294 WS/48 | 10.4 BPM | 25.3 VORP

Looks like Bron crushes Bird in all advanced metrics and his per game stats are identical, which isn't good for Bird considering the possession difference of the eras (Bron beats Bird in all those numbers per100).

And then looking at the accolades for both during that period:

Bird: 3 MVPS, two titles, 2 finals MVPs
Bron: 2 MVPs, two titles, 2 finals MVPs

Is it the 1 more MVP in a 3 year period that puts Bird ahead? Because Bron has more MVPs than Bird.


So I'm genuinely curious, what numbers are you looking at to say they are equal?

Stats look pretty even to me.

valade16
12-14-2018, 05:11 PM
Stats look pretty even to me.

30.5 looks even to 25.5?
.573 looks even to .633?
.294 looks even to .232?
10.4 looks even to 8.5?

If you're referring to their rate stats, yeah, but you're forgetting how many more possessions teams got back then. Here are those same years per100 possessions:

Bird: 32.3 PPG | 12.5 RPG | 8.2 APG | 2.2 SPG | 1.1 BPG | 3.8 TO
Bron: 37.8 PPG | 10.6 RPG | 9.3 APG | 2.4 SPG | 0.9 BPG | 4.6 TO

Hawkeye15
12-14-2018, 05:12 PM
30.5 looks even to 25.5?
.573 looks even to .633?
.294 looks even to .232?
10.4 looks even to 8.5?

If you're referring to their rate stats, yeah, but you're forgetting how many more possessions teams got back then. Here are those same years per100 possessions:

Bird: 32.3 PPG | 12.5 RPG | 8.2 APG | 2.2 SPG | 1.1 BPG | 3.8 TO
Bron: 37.8 PPG | 10.6 RPG | 9.3 APG | 2.4 SPG | 0.9 BPG | 4.6 TO

then there is that whole pesky defense thing.

Hawkeye15
12-14-2018, 05:14 PM
27/10/ 7 on 51%,40%, and 90% over 3 years with 3 MVPs, 2 rings, and 2 Final MVPs. Probably would have had 3rd ring and finals MVP had he not going hurt in the playoffs. He was a much more versatile scorer, less ball dominate (Kevin McHale wasn't asked to stand in the corner and not get in the way), as good a passer, and an underrated defender. historically there is clearly a case to be made for Bird. Like I said if LeBron learned to shoot when he was in his 20s and still played defense he'd be that Jordanese peak guy. He didn't.

been through it before, no need to rehash. Let's leave it at I am right and you are wrong :)

valade16
12-14-2018, 05:20 PM
then there is that whole pesky defense thing.

Yeah it's not close there. And add to that LeBron is both scores more and is more efficient a scorer than Bird.

Hawkeye15
12-14-2018, 05:22 PM
Yeah it's not close there. And add to that LeBron is both scores more and is more efficient a scorer than Bird.

even bagwell and the rest of the Bird lovers went away a few years ago regarding this subject. Bird is not the guy I would attempt to bring to this convo. Jabbar is literally the only player that has a case on paper to me.

ewing
12-14-2018, 05:27 PM
30.5 looks even to 25.5?
.573 looks even to .633?
.294 looks even to .232?
10.4 looks even to 8.5?

If you're referring to their rate stats, yeah, but you're forgetting how many more possessions teams got back then. Here are those same years per100 possessions:

Bird: 32.3 PPG | 12.5 RPG | 8.2 APG | 2.2 SPG | 1.1 BPG | 3.8 TO
Bron: 37.8 PPG | 10.6 RPG | 9.3 APG | 2.4 SPG | 0.9 BPG | 4.6 TO

Yeah I don't think you can defiantly tell who the better player is based on that information. I can tell they are both very good

ewing
12-14-2018, 05:29 PM
been through it before, no need to rehash. Let's leave it at I am right and you are wrong :)

Sure Stan

valade16
12-14-2018, 05:31 PM
Yeah I don't think you can defiantly tell who the better player is based on that information. I can tell they are both very good

Maybe not, but when you add defense into the equation it pushes the guy the stats were already leaning towards far ahead. They are both very, very good. Bird is my co-favorite player with Hakeem. I love watching him. But LeBron is just better at this point. He was better at their bests and he was better longer. That's no knock on Bird, he was a Top 10 player ever, but LeBron is simply on another level.

ewing
12-14-2018, 05:36 PM
Maybe not, but when you add defense into the equation it pushes the guy the stats were already leaning towards far ahead. They are both very, very good. Bird is my co-favorite player with Hakeem. I love watching him. But LeBron is just better at this point. He was better at their bests and he was better longer. That's no knock on Bird, he was a Top 10 player ever, but LeBron is simply on another level.

I think prime Bird was a very underrated defender. He was actually good before the back. I think during that period he was also much more versatile scorer, much less ball dominate, and better in big moments. Like I said, there is a case for him. There is no case for anyone equaling Micheal's peak. He doesn't have a 1B. LeBron can be a clear two based on longevity

valade16
12-14-2018, 05:45 PM
I think prime Bird was a very underrated defender. He was actually good before the back. I think during that period he was also much more versatile scorer, much less ball dominate, and better in big moments. Like I said, there is a case for him. There is no case for anyone equaling Micheal's peak. He doesn't have a 1B. LeBron can be a clear two based on longevity

There is a case, but it's a weak one. Bird's underrated defense was still far behind LeBron's, his scoring versatility doesn't mean a ton when LeBron scored more and at better efficiency, and although Bird was amazing in big moments, he also crapped the bed in several series as well.

There's a case, but there's also a case that AI is the best scorer ever, it's just not a good case.

Hawkeye15
12-14-2018, 05:47 PM
I think prime Bird was a very underrated defender. He was actually good before the back. I think during that period he was also much more versatile scorer, much less ball dominate, and better in big moments. Like I said, there is a case for him. There is no case for anyone equaling Micheal's peak. He doesn't have a 1B. LeBron can be a clear two based on longevity

MJ and LeBron both have around a 6 year peak where they led the league in nearly every advanced measure. Honestly don't know what you are looking at dude. The 2011 Mavs series is the single thing that makes it B, instead of a tie.

Looking at LeBron and Jordan side by side again, it's amazing how close they are peak wise. I really don't get your angle here. At all.

Hawkeye15
12-14-2018, 05:48 PM
Shaq was the least versatile scorer in league history for an all timer. So?

ewing
12-14-2018, 05:56 PM
MJ and LeBron both have around a 6 year peak where they led the league in nearly every advanced measure. Honestly don't know what you are looking at dude. The 2011 Mavs series is the single thing that makes it B, instead of a tie.

Looking at LeBron and Jordan side by side again, it's amazing how close they are peak wise. I really don't get your angle here. At all.

Dude he was a Tony Parker hamstring away from getting one title after stacking the deck with the Heat during that period. He got totally smoked the next time against the Spurs too. Smoked

IKnowHoops
12-14-2018, 06:09 PM
Yeah I don't think you can defiantly tell who the better player is based on that information. I can tell they are both very good

Then that means you canít tell who is better between Bird and Jordan based on the same set of numbers either.

Hawkeye15
12-14-2018, 06:18 PM
Dude he was a Tony Parker hamstring away from getting one title after stacking the deck with the Heat during that period. He got totally smoked the next time against the Spurs too. Smoked

Bird's decked was stacked for him. And he still got his *** whupped by some lesser teams along the way.

Again, wrong dude to compare. Shorten your list to be taken seriously on this one

ewing
12-14-2018, 06:26 PM
Then that means you canít tell who is better between Bird and Jordan based on the same set of numbers either.

Your right. Like usual you donít have a point but at least you are right this time


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ewing
12-14-2018, 06:32 PM
Your right. Like usual you donít have a point but at least you are right this time


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Wrong post

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ewing
12-14-2018, 06:37 PM
Bird's decked was stacked for him. And he still got his *** whupped by some lesser teams along the way.

Again, wrong dude to compare. Shorten your list to be taken seriously on this one

Sounds pretty similar. Did Bird get smoked?


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FlashBolt
12-14-2018, 06:43 PM
"Stacking the deck with the Heat." How much more stacked were the Heat, really? Their depth was absolute junk. Bosh is overrated. Talk about a one time playoff game winner in his seven seasons before joining Miami and also, a losing W/L regular season record. He was a good player stuck on a bad team so naturally, those players will have higher stats. Those are quite empty stats if they don't translate into winning games - especially in the playoffs. And let's not forget Wade became an absolute liability at times due to his injury. He wasn't the same Wade because by all accounts, we all know a prime Wade and prime LeBron would have lasted longer than four seasons. After the 2nd season together, it was quite obvious Wade was no longer capable of having the impact he once had. Not even close. Numbers aren't even close. LeBron demolishes Larry in totals and longevity. Charles Barkley own words: Before Tim Duncan, he felt Kevin McHale was the best PF he played against. So Larry Bird had an excessive amount of talent on his team and lost out FMVP to Maxwell. That's like LeBron losing Finals MVP to Kevin Love. We all know what the reaction would be if LeBron ever lost Finals MVP to a significantly inferior teammate. LeBron and Bird debate ended 4-5 years ago. With LeBron's Cavs title victory, it isn't even worth a debate. Bird is great but I'd take LeBron and KD over him, easily. The only players who have a legitimate case against LeBron are Jordan and Kareem. If LeBron puts himself above Kareem with the All-Time scoring total, he is above Kareem. If he wins 1-2 more rings with the Lakers as the leading man against legitimate competition, he is right there with Jordan. Maybe above depending on the team he beats.

ewing
12-14-2018, 06:55 PM
"Stacking the deck with the Heat." How much more stacked were the Heat, really? Their depth was absolute junk. Bosh is overrated. Talk about a one time playoff game winner in his seven seasons before joining Miami and also, a losing W/L regular season record. He was a good player stuck on a bad team so naturally, those players will have higher stats. Those are quite empty stats if they don't translate into winning games - especially in the playoffs. And let's not forget Wade became an absolute liability at times due to his injury. He wasn't the same Wade because by all accounts, we all know a prime Wade and prime LeBron would have lasted longer than four seasons. After the 2nd season together, it was quite obvious Wade was no longer capable of having the impact he once had. Not even close. Numbers aren't even close. LeBron demolishes Larry in totals and longevity. Charles Barkley own words: Before Tim Duncan, he felt Kevin McHale was the best PF he played against. So Larry Bird had an excessive amount of talent on his team and lost out FMVP to Maxwell. That's like LeBron losing Finals MVP to Kevin Love. We all know what the reaction would be if LeBron ever lost Finals MVP to a significantly inferior teammate. LeBron and Bird debate ended 4-5 years ago. With LeBron's Cavs title victory, it isn't even worth a debate. Bird is great but I'd take LeBron and KD over him, easily. The only players who have a legitimate case against LeBron are Jordan and Kareem. If LeBron puts himself above Kareem with the All-Time scoring total, he is above Kareem. If he wins 1-2 more rings with the Lakers as the leading man against legitimate competition, he is right there with Jordan. Maybe above depending on the team he beats.

His team was favored to win the NBA finals ever year he was with the Heat. They lost to a way less talented Mavs team and got totally smoked by the Spurs. What did they lose by like an average of 15 points? Poor LeBron he had D Wade and Chris Bosh as teammates. Rasheed Lewis, Ray Allen, Haslem and Shane Battier as role players. Boo hoo. They got smoked. Saying the Mavs is the only prime mark against him is just wrong

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Alayla
12-14-2018, 06:56 PM
I don't think anyone sane thought the cavs where making the playoffs this year i had them pegged for 28-30 wins or so if love played healthy all year at the start of the season

FlashBolt
12-14-2018, 06:58 PM
I don't think anyone sane thought the cavs where making the playoffs this year i had them pegged for 28-30 wins or so if love played healthy all year at the start of the season

They were 0-5 with Love and he shot like 34% from the field. They're just a bad team that had a historic level player to make up for their deficiencies.

Alayla
12-14-2018, 07:38 PM
They were 0-5 with Love and he shot like 34% from the field. They're just a bad team that had a historic level player to make up for their deficiencies.

I never said that wasn't the case I simply wanted the dialog not to be exaggerated I'd say I was high on the relative to the average and expected at BEST a 30 win team and that's only becuase I consider Love to be a fair bit better than given credit for lately and lets not forget Love shot that % becuase he was playing through an injury.

I just want the dialog on both sides to be fair and balanced. Yes Lebron is an incredible basketball player that often gets less respect than he should for what he's accomplished. Yes that team had no bisusness in the playoff's let alone the finals hell I felt that way last year watching them and before the mid season trade they looked like some 18 win team without Lebron. But I wont sit here and ignore when someone tries to make it out like anyone thought that team was a playoff team to start the year without Lebron I honestly struggle to belive anyone was that delusional.

Heediot
12-14-2018, 07:45 PM
LeBron's peak is the only peak that rivals MJ haha.

I feel like I used to have this conversation 10 times a week, years ago before everyone just finally accepted they were watching a top 1-3 player ever.

Like I said, good luck getting anyone to agree with you man.

Bron goat longevity

Jordan goat peak.

Heediot
12-14-2018, 07:47 PM
What numbers?

Bird 84-86: 26.2 PPG | 10.1 RPG | 6.7 APG | 1.8 SPG | 0.9 BPG | 3.1 TO | 25.5 PER | .573 TS% | .232 WS/48 | 8.5 BPM | 24.5 VORP
Bron 12-14: 27.0 PPG | 7.6 RPG | 6.6 APG | 1.7 SPG | 0.7 BPG | 3.3 TO | 30.5 PER | .633 TS% | .294 WS/48 | 10.4 BPM | 25.3 VORP

Looks like Bron crushes Bird in all advanced metrics and his per game stats are identical, which isn't good for Bird considering the possession difference of the eras (Bron beats Bird in all those numbers per100).

And then looking at the accolades for both during that period:

Bird: 3 MVPS, two titles, 2 finals MVPs
Bron: 2 MVPs, two titles, 2 finals MVPs

Is it the 1 more MVP in a 3 year period that puts Bird ahead? Because Bron has more MVPs than Bird.


So I'm genuinely curious, what numbers are you looking at to say they are equal?

Bird is the better natural basketball player minus the athleticism. Bird could be argued to be goat if the criteria were based purely on iq and skill.

Heediot
12-14-2018, 07:54 PM
Bird is great but I'd KD over him, easily.

Bird knows how to control a game better and can beat you his brain more imo. KD is just a great scorer a sooped up version of Kyrie with 8 more inches. The type of guy that can ot you over if yopu have engine/guys who can control a game. Bird is more of an engine type of player, he can score a high level to boot. Bird is tough as nails and super high iq/feel that KD isn't close to touching.

Alayla
12-14-2018, 07:55 PM
Why is Wilt never respected in these goat discussions like honestly?

ewing
12-14-2018, 07:58 PM
Why is Wilt never respected in these goat discussions like honestly?

I think he is. It really wasn't a whose the best discussion just me hating on LeBron and LeBron stans doing the opposite

valade16
12-14-2018, 08:00 PM
Bird is the better natural basketball player minus the athleticism. Bird could be argued to be goat if the criteria were based purely on iq and skill.

I could have more skills and BBall IQ than DeAndre Jordan and I still wouldn't be a better basketball player lol. Unfortunately for guys like Bird, Athleticism matters. And I do think Bird had perhaps the highest BBall IQ of any player ever (though LeBron has amazing BBall IQ as well).

ewing
12-14-2018, 08:09 PM
I could have more skills and BBall IQ than DeAndre Jordan and I still wouldn't be a better basketball player lol. Unfortunately for guys like Bird, Athleticism matters. And I do think Bird had perhaps the highest BBall IQ of any player ever (though LeBron has amazing BBall IQ as well).

Definitely true I think his point was more the opinion that Bird IQ separates him from KD bc it lead to him playing a better floor and is less quantifiable. If it is I tend to agree with him


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valade16
12-14-2018, 08:10 PM
I think he is. It really wasn't a whose the best discussion just me hating on LeBron and LeBron stans doing the opposite

Funny that everyone who thinks LeBron is good or better than Bird is a "LeBron stan" or "LeBron homer". If that is the case, he has a LOT of homers.

ewing
12-14-2018, 08:14 PM
Funny that everyone who thinks LeBron is good or better than Bird is a "LeBron stan" or "LeBron homer". If that is the case, he has a LOT of homers.

I actually donít think you are. I do think you weight the stat comparison higher then I do but I think your opinion is unbiased.


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IKnowHoops
12-14-2018, 08:33 PM
Your right. Like usual you donít have a point but at least you are right this time


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Which also means you need to get a refund for any math classes you took in life

Vee-Rex
12-14-2018, 08:44 PM
Of course he does. But he also molds the team into one that is completely reliant on his skillset. Is it any surprise that the only other two quality ball handling playmakers he ever played with (Wade and Kyrie), one had to dial back and the other left in frustration? If you handle the ball a lot or initiate the offense or need the ball to be effective, you will not have a great time playing with LeBron. If you can thrive without the ball, you'll do well.

On this point...

Could you imagine LeBron + Klay Thompson? Or even better, LeBron + Stephen Curry? I know Steph is elite at initiating offense but he's also elite off-ball and I'm sure would thrive in an offense with LeBron.

Man I wish we could've seen a Steph/LeBron pairing.

ewing
12-14-2018, 09:09 PM
Which also means you need to get a refund for any math classes you took in life

And back to not making any sense


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Chronz
12-14-2018, 09:10 PM
Of course he does. But he also molds the team into one that is completely reliant on his skillset. Is it any surprise that the only other two quality ball handling playmakers he ever played with (Wade and Kyrie), one had to dial back and the other left in frustration? If you handle the ball a lot or initiate the offense or need the ball to be effective, you will not have a great time playing with LeBron. If you can thrive without the ball, you'll do well.

That's not unique to bron. That's everyone. I do know bron and wade were historically productive together despite wade's obvious decline. What do you know

ewing
12-14-2018, 09:11 PM
On this point...

Could you imagine LeBron + Klay Thompson? Or even better, LeBron + Stephen Curry? I know Steph is elite at initiating offense but he's also elite off-ball and I'm sure would thrive in an offense with LeBron.

Man I wish we could've seen a Steph/LeBron pairing.

I think the Curry LeBron combo would be unreal but Klay might be similar to Kover


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Chronz
12-14-2018, 09:12 PM
My memory is a little fuzzy, but around 1998, the same **** was said about Jordan (he isn't the best ever!). Now we consider him untouchable. In 20 years, even the critics will understand LeBron is 1B.

By 93 everyone and their mom knew mj was king

ewing
12-14-2018, 09:12 PM
That's not unique to bron. That's everyone. I do know bron and wade were historically productive together despite wade's obvious decline. What do you know

Itís not everyone


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Chronz
12-14-2018, 09:16 PM
Too much fake news here

Chronz
12-14-2018, 09:17 PM
Itís not everyone


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What 1 person? Who?

ewing
12-14-2018, 09:19 PM
What 1 person? Who?

Jason Kidd- handled the ball a lot. His teammates werenít limited.


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Chronz
12-14-2018, 09:20 PM
Jason Kidd- handled the ball a lot. His teammates werenít limited.


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Jkidd never led an elite offense. His value was predominantly on the other side of the court. What the **** are you saying?

ewing
12-14-2018, 09:41 PM
Jkidd never led an elite offense. His value was predominantly on the other side of the court. What the **** are you saying?

fake news

Chronz
12-15-2018, 10:06 AM
fake news
I'm sure if bron wanted he could kick back, let all the inferior players shine and be a cog in a **** offense too

MuadDib
12-15-2018, 10:15 AM
One of the best ever.

ewing
12-15-2018, 10:26 AM
I'm sure if bron wanted he could kick back, let all the inferior players shine and be a cog in a **** offense too

Let me explain- Its not limit guys or do nothing, some guys actually enhance there teammates and don't limit them.

Chronz
12-15-2018, 10:28 AM
Let me explain- Its not limit guys or do nothing, some guys actually enhance there teammates and don't limit them.

Like Shane Battier?

ewing
12-15-2018, 10:31 AM
Like Shane Battier?

yes. him, J Kidd, Larry Bird....

Chronz
12-15-2018, 11:41 AM
yes. him, J Kidd, Larry Bird....

Bird yeah. Kidds offenses sucked so idgaf . Bron is far too good to ever let an offense flounder as consistently as he has. You could name Nash and guys that played pg better than bron. You could list other pgs that get into each other's way for that matter. Put 2 larry birds on the team, they don't get the same maximum output

ewing
12-15-2018, 11:50 AM
Bird yeah. Kidds offenses sucked so idgaf . Bron is far too good to ever let an offense flounder as consistently as he has. You could name Nash and guys that played pg better than bron. You could list other pgs that get into each other's way for that matter. Put 2 larry birds on the team, they don't get the same maximum output

LeBron didnít learn to shoot til recently. He is the best he has been offensively now. Young LeBron was limited by his J . Older LeBron doesnít defend. Some fans see young LeBron having he game older LeBron does on offense bc they only look at efficiency #s and some are hopeless homers that blame his teammates for everything. I actually think he is better suited to share the court with other ball handlers and paint scorers now

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Giannis94
12-15-2018, 11:54 AM
Happy Lebron trade-eligibility day! Can't wait to see the news of lebron to the bucks later!

Im_in_Mia_bish
12-15-2018, 03:05 PM
30.5 looks even to 25.5?
.573 looks even to .633?
.294 looks even to .232?
10.4 looks even to 8.5?

If you're referring to their rate stats, yeah, but you're forgetting how many more possessions teams got back then. Here are those same years per100 possessions:

Bird: 32.3 PPG | 12.5 RPG | 8.2 APG | 2.2 SPG | 1.1 BPG | 3.8 TO
Bron: 37.8 PPG | 10.6 RPG | 9.3 APG | 2.4 SPG | 0.9 BPG | 4.6 TO

/convo

Well put.

Im_in_Mia_bish
12-15-2018, 03:10 PM
It took me some time to realize this, but as amazing as Lebron is (he literally makes any team a contender), the way you have to construct a team around him since around 2009, really leaves you dead in the water if and when he leaves. You ship away young talent for win now players, you resign role players to inflated deals because they fit with him, you construct a team with minimal other guys who can control an offense, and when he leaves, you are left with a ton of bit parts being overpaid.

LeBron is as good a player as I have ever seen. But he is also unique in what you want to surround him with.

If the end result is finals, or contender, I donít see how thatís a problem for any franchise to have.

Just mix him with the best role players that enhances the teams abilities.

All the ďdramaĒ that Lebron brings isnít even all that, especially if that means you have a shot at a title.

Hell with the **** Cleveland roster, they almost beat the warriors in game 1. And assuming they won, and Lebron doesnít injure his hand against that backboard, who knows what the outcome wouldíve been.

If one things certain, itís that Lebron has shown on multiple occasions to do the impossible as a huge underdog.

So Iím giving him the benefit of the doubt.

Heediot
12-15-2018, 03:31 PM
LeBron didnít learn to shoot til recently. He is the best he has been offensively now. Young LeBron was limited by his J . Older LeBron doesnít defend. Some fans see young LeBron having he game older LeBron does on offense bc they only look at efficiency #s and some are hopeless homers that blame his teammates for everything. I actually think he is better suited to share the court with other ball handlers and paint scorers now

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Agreed Jordan at his peak was more well rounded vs. Bron at his peak. That's why I take MJ at his best over Bron.

Bron has the longevity on him though.

Hawkeye15
12-15-2018, 07:37 PM
By 93 everyone and their mom knew mj was king

You underestimate the stubborness of generations prior to us. But most did have him tops after title 3

ewing
12-15-2018, 10:11 PM
You underestimate the stubborness of generations prior to us. But most did have him tops after title 3

True but on the other hand some people also overrate shiny new toys


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GREATNESS ONE
12-15-2018, 11:17 PM
This years MVP..

IKnowHoops
12-16-2018, 05:43 AM
I'm sure if bron wanted he could kick back, let all the inferior players shine and be a cog in a **** offense too

Exactly. The point is to win, not lose while not making the offense about your skill set.

Chronz
12-16-2018, 06:38 AM
LeBron didnít learn to shoot til recently. He is the best he has been offensively now. Young LeBron was limited by his J . Older LeBron doesnít defend. Some fans see young LeBron having he game older LeBron does on offense bc they only look at efficiency #s and some are hopeless homers that blame his teammates for everything. I actually think he is better suited to share the court with other ball handlers and paint scorers now

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Bird wasn't too different. Dude had a shot but could get shut down offensively early and late into his career. Defended at a high level even less than bron.

Chronz
12-16-2018, 06:39 AM
You underestimate the stubborness of generations prior to us. But most did have him tops after title 3
I have clips of the talking heads hyping him up as the greatest after 2

Hawkeye15
12-17-2018, 11:02 AM
I have clips of the talking heads hyping him up as the greatest after 2

easy to find clips stating he hasn't paid his dues.

You get my drift dude, many people have a hard time passing the torch.

But, listen to his NBA peers at the time, and those prior. By around 1993, everyone in the NBA knew he was the GOAT.

Hawkeye15
12-17-2018, 11:04 AM
If the end result is finals, or contender, I donít see how thatís a problem for any franchise to have.

Just mix him with the best role players that enhances the teams abilities.

All the ďdramaĒ that Lebron brings isnít even all that, especially if that means you have a shot at a title.

Hell with the **** Cleveland roster, they almost beat the warriors in game 1. And assuming they won, and Lebron doesnít injure his hand against that backboard, who knows what the outcome wouldíve been.

If one things certain, itís that Lebron has shown on multiple occasions to do the impossible as a huge underdog.

So Iím giving him the benefit of the doubt.

right. It just means when he leaves, you have a loooooooooooooooong rebuild ahead of you, unless you want to take the road Miami did which is mediocre for a while. Bunch of role players making a lot of money...

Hawkeye15
12-17-2018, 11:05 AM
True but on the other hand some people also overrate shiny new toys


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a 34 year old with 200+ playoff games, 3 titles, multiple MVP's, isn't "new".

Chronz
12-18-2018, 03:59 PM
easy to find clips stating he hasn't paid his dues.

You get my drift dude, many people have a hard time passing the torch.

But, listen to his NBA peers at the time, and those prior. By around 1993, everyone in the NBA knew he was the GOAT.

Yeah, I guess it means something that it only took 2 for people to start already passing the torch to mj. Kind of how it took you two to get bron ahead of kobe's 5. There were still people who denied it but after that legit third chip, no one could.

tredigs
12-18-2018, 04:24 PM
I have clips of the talking heads hyping him up as the greatest after 2

I've heard him called the greatest player of All Time by Bobby Knight before he even joined the NBA (after coaching him with the Team USA college kids against NBA All Stars in scrimmages all summer and the college kids winning every single game under Jordan). It's an old video and I just saw it resurface with new commentary recently. There's other commentators of his games from that summer saying they could also see him as the GOAT (again this is before he stepped foot in the NBA).

Jamiecballer
12-18-2018, 06:17 PM
No he isn't. He is a compiler. The best in the league or close to it for a very long time but never completely head and shoulders above all competition.Lmao get the f out of here skip

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Jamiecballer
12-18-2018, 06:22 PM
I'm not going to bash my head against the wall to try and convince homers that are unwilling to look at the numbers, accolades, or team success when comparing their peaks.Only in Boston would you not be laughed at for this opinion

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YAALREADYKNO
12-18-2018, 09:38 PM
2nd greatest player

tredigs
12-18-2018, 11:04 PM
I've heard him called the greatest player of All Time by Bobby Knight before he even joined the NBA (after coaching him with the Team USA college kids against NBA All Stars in scrimmages all summer and the college kids winning every single game under Jordan). It's an old video and I just saw it resurface with new commentary recently. There's other commentators of his games from that summer saying they could also see him as the GOAT (again this is before he stepped foot in the NBA).


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-oay7-en5Ow

zookman65
12-19-2018, 01:53 AM
Heís good but highly overrated


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Are you trolling us or are you a ****ing russian bot. Absurd take of the day.

MILLERHIGHLIFE
12-19-2018, 10:24 AM
1075274268093624321

Lack of urgency. LeBron getting antsy.

Hawkeye15
12-19-2018, 10:58 AM
I've heard him called the greatest player of All Time by Bobby Knight before he even joined the NBA (after coaching him with the Team USA college kids against NBA All Stars in scrimmages all summer and the college kids winning every single game under Jordan). It's an old video and I just saw it resurface with new commentary recently. There's other commentators of his games from that summer saying they could also see him as the GOAT (again this is before he stepped foot in the NBA).

yeah many did recognize what they were watching as early as 1984-85', but older people always have problems admitting the new guy is that good. Hell Bobby Ohr was still mentioned as the GOAT by hockey people up here as recently as the early 90's. Like really? I was a kid, and Jordan was a god to me. So my views about the time period mostly come from how my Dad was.

I remember the Bobby Knight quote. He knew what was up

tredigs
12-19-2018, 11:05 AM
yeah many did recognize what they were watching as early as 1984-85', but older people always have problems admitting the new guy is that good. Hell Bobby Ohr was still mentioned as the GOAT by hockey people up here as recently as the early 90's. Like really? I was a kid, and Jordan was a god to me. So my views about the time period mostly come from how my Dad was.

I remember the Bobby Knight quote. He knew what was up

Oh no question, that's why I found those comments so fascinating (after hearing them decades later). Super rare.

Turning 7 and already basketball obsessed at 7 when MJ won his 1st title, he was that for me too. Looking back on everything though, man will he always hold up.

Hawkeye15
12-19-2018, 11:10 AM
Oh no question, that's why I found those comments so fascinating (after hearing them decades later). Super rare.

Turning 7 and already basketball obsessed at 7 when MJ won his 1st title, he was that for me too. Looking back on everything though, man will he always hold up.

I was born in 1975. My first memory of basketball was my Dad getting fired up during the 84' Finals (Bird fan of course). So I started watching. By 1986, after he torched the C's for 63, I was on the bandwagon. By 1989, my entire bedroom, wardrobe, shoes, everything, was MJ. My buddy and I lived it haha. I was so happy when he won in 91', my Dad still laughs at me for my reaction.

Dude I still throw in my MJ DVD's a couple times a year. I could never get sick of watching him. He was perfect

IKnowHoops
12-19-2018, 11:16 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-oay7-en5Ow

Wow...canít believe Iíve never heard/seen this before...Iím not surprised...thatís why heís considered the GOAT...still amazing...but count me in as someone who thought he was the GOAT by year 3, long before winning a title.

Hawkeye15
12-19-2018, 11:17 AM
Wow...canít believe Iíve never heard/seen this before...Iím not surprised...thatís why heís considered the GOAT...still amazing...but count me in as someone who thought he was the GOAT by year 3, long before winning a title.

I was like 12 during his 3rd season haha. I wouldn't have known anything about the actual history of the NBA.

IKnowHoops
12-19-2018, 11:20 AM
I was like 12 during his 3rd season haha. I wouldn't have known anything about the actual history of the NBA.

I was even younger lol

Hawkeye15
12-19-2018, 11:31 AM
I was even younger lol

well I suppose we both thought he was the GOAT, but that was with zero context or education on the subject :)

IKnowHoops
12-19-2018, 11:33 AM
well I suppose we both thought he was the GOAT, but that was with zero context or education on the subject :)

Yep, but we were right

valade16
12-19-2018, 01:05 PM
Moral of the story: sometimes the praise of the shiny new toy is warranted.

MILLERHIGHLIFE
12-19-2018, 01:41 PM
Moral of the story: sometimes the praise of the shiny new toy is warranted.

NBA needs a ton of shiny new toys. Heck that recent Morey article he mentioned there's like 10 or more Embiid's walking around in Africa. Just need more of them basketball camps to find them.

lakers squad
12-19-2018, 03:23 PM
Easy Hawkeye, that's my boy your talking about 😆...as much as I loved Magic and Kobe, Kobe was a really good poor man's Jordan, as Magic would be too LeBron!

lakers squad
12-19-2018, 03:25 PM
****ing talking about LeBron like he is Kobe haha

Was replying to this post!

Hawkeye15
12-19-2018, 03:53 PM
Easy Hawkeye, that's my boy your talking about 😆...as much as I loved Magic and Kobe, Kobe was a really good poor man's Jordan, as Magic would be too LeBron!

Oh I simply meant if we are comparing all timers, LeBron and Bird don't belong in the same convo anymore. Bird and Kobe? Sure. They are on the same tier for me (around 8-11 all time).

Hawkeye15
12-19-2018, 03:55 PM
Moral of the story: sometimes the praise of the shiny new toy is warranted.

like I mentioned earlier, a 34 year old with 1150 regular season games, 200+ playoff games, multiple MVP's, Finals MVP's, and enough all NBA teams to make you need more fingers to count, isn't a "shiny new toy".

Chronz
12-19-2018, 04:24 PM
I've heard him called the greatest player of All Time by Bobby Knight before he even joined the NBA (after coaching him with the Team USA college kids against NBA All Stars in scrimmages all summer and the college kids winning every single game under Jordan). It's an old video and I just saw it resurface with new commentary recently. There's other commentators of his games from that summer saying they could also see him as the GOAT (again this is before he stepped foot in the NBA).

Sorry, can't watch the vid you posted right now but was it that story about the blazers needing a center and the coach saying play him at ****ing center then. Or the one where the coach claimed he'd be the best defender at his position and top 5 at every other?

More importantly, should we care before he's proven anything at the nba level? Back when being nba ready actually meant something?

Chronz
12-19-2018, 04:26 PM
Oh no question, that's why I found those comments so fascinating (after hearing them decades later). Super rare.

Turning 7 and already basketball obsessed at 7 when MJ won his 1st title, he was that for me too. Looking back on everything though, man will he always hold up.
Were you such a fanboy you thought he would win with the wizards? I know you weren't but I'll admit, I thought he could make some noise if he squeaked in

tredigs
12-19-2018, 05:05 PM
@Chronz it's about the summer of 84, where MJ and co from college ran through their NBA competition in televised exhibitions 8 out of 8 times, prompting Magic to say Jordan was already a top player in the NBA (Magic was already top 3 and Jordan wasn't in the league), Bobby Knight saying he was the best athlete ever seen, one of the most skilled he had ever seen, and one of the most competitive he had ever seen. So that combining all those factors, he was the best basketball player he had ever seen. Then some comments from broadcasters that summer saying he had a chance at GOAT, etc.

And nah, I did not think Wizards MJ would do anything. At first I thought it was a marketing stunt and actually surprised he was as good as he was (their best player and a borderline All Star still).

Hawkeye15
12-19-2018, 05:09 PM
@Chronz it's about the summer of 84, where MJ and co from college ran through their NBA competition in televised exhibitions 8 out of 8 times, prompting Magic to say Jordan was already a top player in the NBA (Magic was already top 3 and Jordan wasn't in the league), Bobby Knight saying he was the best athlete ever seen, one of the most skilled he had ever seen, and one of the most competitive he had ever seen. So that combining all those factors, he was the best basketball player he had ever seen. Then some comments from broadcasters that summer saying he had a chance at GOAT, etc.

And nah, I did not think Wizards MJ would do anything. At first I thought it was a marketing stunt and actually surprised he was as good as he was (their best player and a borderline All Star still).

MJ did have guys like Magic and Bird praising him as THE best they ever saw early in his career. The public can take longer to come around, and my Dad, to this ****ing day, still won't agree Jordan is the best ever. Of course that is because he is a rich, white, wealthy man whose Mom was a complete racist. To him, Bird is the best he ever watched. Whatever

tredigs
12-19-2018, 06:41 PM
MJ did have guys like Magic and Bird praising him as THE best they ever saw early in his career. The public can take longer to come around, and my Dad, to this ****ing day, still won't agree Jordan is the best ever. Of course that is because he is a rich, white, wealthy man whose Mom was a complete racist. To him, Bird is the best he ever watched. Whatever

hahah. Yep that will happen too.

ewing
12-19-2018, 06:46 PM
@Chronz it's about the summer of 84, where MJ and co from college ran through their NBA competition in televised exhibitions 8 out of 8 times, prompting Magic to say Jordan was already a top player in the NBA (Magic was already top 3 and Jordan wasn't in the league), Bobby Knight saying he was the best athlete ever seen, one of the most skilled he had ever seen, and one of the most competitive he had ever seen. So that combining all those factors, he was the best basketball player he had ever seen. Then some comments from broadcasters that summer saying he had a chance at GOAT, etc.

And nah, I did not think Wizards MJ would do anything. At first I thought it was a marketing stunt and actually surprised he was as good as he was (their best player and a borderline All Star still).

Ewing was on that team. Ewing and Jordan is pretty hard to beat