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Rivera
11-20-2018, 10:17 AM
9-8 to start the season. I thought they would turn it around and win a few in a row. Big night by Kemba and another Celtics loss

Whatís wrong with this team ?

TheDish87
11-20-2018, 10:21 AM
funny how i got killed for saying i think they face a lot road bumps this season. A lot of talent but not enough ball or minutes to make everyone happy. Stevens is a great coach but bringing back Heyward and Irving made it tough to ride last years momentum into this season and continue the development of he young guys.

Hawkeye15
11-20-2018, 10:31 AM
They don't have a single rotation player that has more than 31.7% of their attempts at the rim, so they don't get easy looks at the rim and don't shoot very many FT's. They shoot a ton of 3's, but aren't making a ton of them. So basically, if you aren't hitting your 3's, and not scoring at the FT line, your efficiency is crap. Their 2 best players were coming off injury, their 2 young guys have struggled out of the gate, and they are clearly overthinking now.

warfelg
11-20-2018, 10:45 AM
They don't have a single rotation player that has more than 31.7% of their attempts at the rim, so they don't get easy looks at the rim and don't shoot very many FT's. They shoot a ton of 3's, but aren't making a ton of them. So basically, if you aren't hitting your 3's, and not scoring at the FT line, your efficiency is crap. Their 2 best players were coming off injury, their 2 young guys have struggled out of the gate, and they are clearly overthinking now.

This. I also think thereís a bit of last year of playing for each other, weíre the underdog. They donít have that this year. I keep catching flack for saying Kyrie should be moved, but I really think they should. Brown is an exceptional cutter and open court guy but they arenít getting that. Tatum and Gordon can be great shooters but they arenít getting that. Baynes should be a tough guy, but heís turned into a jump shooter. We forget Horford can do work in the post, but he isnít.

Hawkeye15
11-20-2018, 10:49 AM
This. I also think thereís a bit of last year of playing for each other, weíre the underdog. They donít have that this year. I keep catching flack for saying Kyrie should be moved, but I really think they should. Brown is an exceptional cutter and open court guy but they arenít getting that. Tatum and Gordon can be great shooters but they arenít getting that. Baynes should be a tough guy, but heís turned into a jump shooter. We forget Horford can do work in the post, but he isnít.

don't get me started on Kyrie. Though I think his ability to get his own shot will help against tough playoff defenses. He just doesn't do anything else for me at a level acceptable to his rep. Honestly teams are better without him, with the exception of when they need a bucket, or he is on fire. The guy doesn't make others better. At all.

warfelg
11-20-2018, 11:15 AM
don't get me started on Kyrie. Though I think his ability to get his own shot will help against tough playoff defenses. He just doesn't do anything else for me at a level acceptable to his rep. Honestly teams are better without him, with the exception of when they need a bucket, or he is on fire. The guy doesn't make others better. At all.

And to me they have two other guys that can do that same thing. Maybe not on his level. But Heyward and Tatum have shown the ability to get buckets when they need them.

Vinylman
11-20-2018, 11:22 AM
They need to turn their slightly above average depth into elite players Ö they just don't have enough minutes to spread around.


Also, reacclimating Hayward and Kyrie will take some time

Hawkeye15
11-20-2018, 11:26 AM
They need to turn their slightly above average depth into elite players Ö they just don't have enough minutes to spread around.


Also, reacclimating Hayward and Kyrie will take some time

yeah but isn't Irving (and Hayward) elite? That is the bill of goods I keep having to read over, and over, and over on this site. How can such a stacked team, led by the amazing Kyrie Irving, be struggling?

jaydubb
11-20-2018, 11:44 AM
Hayward is an awkward fit for them and looks to be 50% of what he was.

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kobebabe
11-20-2018, 12:14 PM
I believe they will eventually figure it out but they have too much talent and only one ball and 48 mins to dish out. Irving imho is a volume shooter. He tends to play hero ball majority of the time. With so many good players on his side there is no reason he should be putting up so many shots like the 25 he put up yesterday and 1 of 8 3 balls. His 12 assists were fantastic but thatís because he has the ball most of the time. I felt the same way about him when he was with the cavs. He can win you ball games but he can cause you just as many games with his hero ball. Improving this team starts with him. If I were them I would trade him.

warfelg
11-20-2018, 12:16 PM
yeah but isn't Irving (and Hayward) elite? That is the bill of goods I keep having to read over, and over, and over on this site. How can such a stacked team, led by the amazing Kyrie Irving, be struggling?

I donít think Hayward is elite TBH. And IMO Horford is the guy thatís the two way elite guy they have.

Hawkeye15
11-20-2018, 12:23 PM
I donít think Hayward is elite TBH. And IMO Horford is the guy thatís the two way elite guy they have.

I don't think Hayward is elite either, but he is a top 25 player (or was in Utah), and is every bit as good as Irving. They have the talent, but I don't like the makeup of the roster. I also think Irving is THE most overrated player in the NBA, I am well documented in this opinion.

Vinylman
11-20-2018, 12:29 PM
yeah but isn't Irving (and Hayward) elite? That is the bill of goods I keep having to read over, and over, and over on this site. How can such a stacked team, led by the amazing Kyrie Irving, be struggling?

what they have to do if they want to compete this year is be willing to put Tatum in deals... just think if they had been intelligent and offered Tatum filler and a first for KL this summer... they would be 14-2 or something like that.

No one is taking Brown as the centerpiece of a deal and his value is only going to decline as his minutes decline


Ainge is falling into the trap of loving his draft picks to much and significantly overvaluing them

Wrigheyes4MVP
11-20-2018, 12:38 PM
They'll be fine

warfelg
11-20-2018, 12:39 PM
what they have to do if they want to compete this year is be willing to put Tatum in deals... just think if they had been intelligent and offered Tatum filler and a first for KL this summer... they would be 14-2 or something like that.

No one is taking Brown as the centerpiece of a deal and his value is only going to decline as his minutes decline


Ainge is falling into the trap of loving his draft picks to much and significantly overvaluing them

Then again, last time he did that he flipped them for Ray Allen and Kevin Garnett.

GoferKing_
11-20-2018, 12:40 PM
Kyrie is what is wrong. He is in, team ball is out.

ewing
11-20-2018, 01:04 PM
Itís Arron Baynes all Arron Baynes


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ZH721
11-20-2018, 01:14 PM
don't get me started on Kyrie. Though I think his ability to get his own shot will help against tough playoff defenses. He just doesn't do anything else for me at a level acceptable to his rep. Honestly teams are better without him, with the exception of when they need a bucket, or he is on fire. The guy doesn't make others better. At all.

Kyrie is the only reason this team isnít well below .500. He has been the only true bright spot this year.

Hawkeye15
11-20-2018, 01:17 PM
Kyrie is the only reason this team isnít well below .500. He has been the only true bright spot this year.

that may be true, but if you let Kyrie control the offense, it's always going to be very limited.

R. Johnson#3
11-20-2018, 01:18 PM
I think Hayward is shook. He's not the slasher he was back on the Jazz. He'd go right at multiple guys and finish at the rim. Maybe it's the offense but there seems to be little to no "attack" mentality to his game anymore. He's now just another jump shooter on a team with too many jump shooters.

ZH721
11-20-2018, 01:24 PM
that may be true, but if you let Kyrie control the offense, it's always going to be very limited.

It was fine with him last year and has been fine in spurts this year. They have a lot of talent that is going to need more time to gel together.

ZH721
11-20-2018, 01:25 PM
I think Hayward is shook. He's not the slasher he was back on the Jazz. He'd go right at multiple guys and finish at the rim. Maybe it's the offense but there seems to be little to no "attack" mentality to his game anymore. He's now just another jump shooter on a team with too many jump shooters.

He definitely isnít right. He hasnít been horrible, but no where near his normal self. He has missed some easy shots at the rim and doesnít go up hard. I think itís going to take some time.

ewing
11-21-2018, 08:57 PM
It was fine with him last year and has been fine in spurts this year. They have a lot of talent that is going to need more time to gel together.

Hawkeye hates Kryie and everyone loves Brad- which he has earned. Still the only times Boston has been a real good offensive team under Brad is when Kryie or IT has dominated the ball. Those guys definitely hurt on the other end but pretending they make them worse on offense it just silly imo


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Jamiecballer
11-22-2018, 12:41 AM
The Celtics will probably get it together in the 2nd half of the season but they arent facing anything that wasn't predicted by many in the offseason.



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FlashBolt
11-22-2018, 12:47 AM
https://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?939899-Celtics-vs-Lakers-Better-team-in-18-19

I guess this was very valid.

Vee-Rex
11-22-2018, 12:59 AM
I love how the blame always goes to Kyrie.

Let's ignore the fact that Jayson Tatum isn't playing well at all.

Let's ignore the fact that Jaylen Brown is playing like trash.

Let's ignore the fact that Horford is shooting badly from long range.

Let's ignore the fact that they've tried to force Hayward back into the game after he missed a full year because of a devastating injury.

Let's ignore that Kyrie has just returned from surgery himself.

But noooo, those things don't matter. Hayward being thrown big minutes after missing a full year has had ZERO effect on the chemistry - it's ALL Kyrie's fault. Nevermind the fact that Kyrie was leading them to a top record in the NBA last year. That never happened.

Combine all of the above with the Celtics likely overachieving a bit last year and there's your answer for just a measly 17 game sample.

You guys are a joke.

Jamiecballer
11-22-2018, 01:06 AM
I love how the blame always goes to Kyrie.

Let's ignore the fact that Jayson Tatum isn't playing well at all.

Let's ignore the fact that Jaylen Brown is playing like trash.

Let's ignore the fact that Horford is shooting badly from long range.

Let's ignore the fact that they've tried to force Hayward back into the game after he missed a full year because of a devastating injury.

Let's ignore that Kyrie has just returned from surgery himself.

But noooo, those things don't matter. Hayward being thrown big minutes after missing a full year has had ZERO effect on the chemistry - it's ALL Kyrie's fault. Nevermind the fact that Kyrie was leading them to a top record in the NBA last year. That never happened.

Combine all of the above with the Celtics likely overachieving a bit last year and there's your answer for just a measly 17 game sample.

You guys are a joke.Jaylen Brown really has been all kinds of awful.

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EthanHarris
11-22-2018, 02:28 AM
Kyrie is what is wrong. He is in, team ball is out.

I still think is one of the best players in the NBA. But now he experiences his worse games ever.

FlashBolt
11-22-2018, 05:49 AM
The Kyrie hate in this forum might be the most unreasonable here. Kyrie's balling. His teammates aren't stepping up. He's not the reason they are losing. Hayward needs to be moved and I would send Rosier, Jaylen, and Hayward for some other pieces ASAP.

R. Johnson#3
11-22-2018, 06:47 AM
The move to the bench did well for Hayward as an individual but I imagine they can't be happy losing to the Knicks.

SiteWolf
11-22-2018, 09:26 AM
The Kyrie hate in this forum might be the most unreasonable here. Kyrie's balling. His teammates aren't stepping up. He's not the reason they are losing. Hayward needs to be moved and I would send Rosier, Jaylen, and Hayward for some other pieces ASAP.

He does himself no favors with his whole Earth is flat crap and now F Thanksgiving....nothing to do with his play, just people's perception of him overall

MILLERHIGHLIFE
11-22-2018, 09:27 AM
1065457959168286720

MILLERHIGHLIFE
11-22-2018, 09:28 AM
Queue up the Irving trade rumors? I doubt Stevens is fired.

R. Johnson#3
11-22-2018, 09:37 AM
1065457959168286720

There must have been a snake in Bradís boot....

Vinylman
11-22-2018, 10:00 AM
This should get fun

Heediot
11-22-2018, 10:11 AM
1065457959168286720

his account appears be one of a sports analyst troll type that I can't take seriously. never seen anything on the actual espn site, and espn loves this type of drama.

ewing
11-22-2018, 10:17 AM
his account appears be one of a sports analyst troll type that I can't take seriously. never seen anything on the actual espn site, and espn loves this type of drama.

Iím not seeing it reported anywhere else. Anybody?


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warfelg
11-22-2018, 11:15 AM
Iím not seeing it reported anywhere else. Anybody?


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https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2807285-kyrie-irving-after-loss-vs-knicks-f-k-thanksgiving

LaVar Ball
11-22-2018, 11:29 AM
Kyrie can't lead a team, indicative of the Cavs pre-Lebron's 2nd stint

ZH721
11-22-2018, 11:33 AM
1065457959168286720

:laugh2: Thatís one of the biggest troll accounts on Twitter. He got you lol.

ZH721
11-22-2018, 11:34 AM
Iím not seeing it reported anywhere else. Anybody?


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Kyrie said the Thanksgiving thing, but how could anyone fall for the comment about Brad?

buckalis
11-22-2018, 03:34 PM
"Whatís Wrong With The Celtics?"

Nothing... just a batch of talent where everyone has realized that the team has to decide on who plays starter, who is benched and who is expendable for next season and therefore, everybody is playing for his future career a SELFISH game, that will advance himself and will diminish the others chances...

Hardly a "team" anymore... I wish they solve it... We Bucks, don't want to have it that easy...

ewing
11-22-2018, 04:25 PM
"Whatís Wrong With The Celtics?"

Nothing... just a batch of talent where everyone has realized that the team has to decide on who plays starter, who is benched and who is expendable for next season and therefore, everybody is playing for his future career a SELFISH game, that will advance himself and will diminish the others chances...

Hardly a "team" anymore... I wish they solve it... We Bucks, don't want to have it that easy...

I disagree. Guys are playing more unsure then selfish when I have watched. They almost compulsively look to organize instead of just going.


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Jamiecballer
11-22-2018, 05:36 PM
I disagree. Guys are playing more unsure then selfish when I have watched. They almost compulsively look to organize instead of just going.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkAgreed

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Chronz
11-22-2018, 11:29 PM
don't get me started on Kyrie. Though I think his ability to get his own shot will help against tough playoff defenses. He just doesn't do anything else for me at a level acceptable to his rep. Honestly teams are better without him, with the exception of when they need a bucket, or he is on fire. The guy doesn't make others better. At all.

Not a hot take. We've already seen the best of playoff kyrie. It came with lebron. A goat

Chronz
11-22-2018, 11:30 PM
I think Hayward is shook. He's not the slasher he was back on the Jazz. He'd go right at multiple guys and finish at the rim. Maybe it's the offense but there seems to be little to no "attack" mentality to his game anymore. He's now just another jump shooter on a team with too many jump shooters.

True, hes not even looking to attack what used to be mismatches

Chronz
11-22-2018, 11:32 PM
I love how the blame always goes to Kyrie.

Let's ignore the fact that Jayson Tatum isn't playing well at all.

Let's ignore the fact that Jaylen Brown is playing like trash.

Let's ignore the fact that Horford is shooting badly from long range.

Let's ignore the fact that they've tried to force Hayward back into the game after he missed a full year because of a devastating injury.

Let's ignore that Kyrie has just returned from surgery himself.

But noooo, those things don't matter. Hayward being thrown big minutes after missing a full year has had ZERO effect on the chemistry - it's ALL Kyrie's fault. Nevermind the fact that Kyrie was leading them to a top record in the NBA last year. That never happened.

Combine all of the above with the Celtics likely overachieving a bit last year and there's your answer for just a measly 17 game sample.

You guys are a joke.

I foresee you keeping this up the way ive been tmacs best pr guy

Htownballa1622
11-23-2018, 04:32 AM
"They're the second best team after gsw!" FOH.

I called them being overrated along with baby Kobe system in Tatum.

Ultimately they're a good defensive team with terrible offense. And **** KG , Tommy heinson, and that stupid leprechaun forever.

More-Than-Most
11-23-2018, 05:12 AM
ball movement... They arent moving the ball as much and its that simple. Kyrie is doing his job this season and playing well it seems but his numbers hurt ball movement.... He needs to make the extra pass as does other guys... I dont think Hayward will ever be worth his contract and not because of his injury but because he wasnt great to begin with which people laughed at me and flash for suggesting that when he signed... Its 20 games... The celtics will be fine but they need more ball movement.

tredigs
11-23-2018, 05:12 AM
Worth mentioning that Kyrie sits at 9th in RPM right now, with Horford being the next Celtic at #50. Granted, it's a stat that grows in value as the season wears on. Regardless, if anything these issues are for Stevens to figure out. He has an abundance of ultra talented players on his team. Time to figure out how to get them to gel. It's still very early.

More-Than-Most
11-23-2018, 05:14 AM
"They're the second best team after gsw!" FOH.

I called them being overrated along with baby Kobe system in Tatum.

Ultimately they're a good defensive team with terrible offense. And **** KG , Tommy heinson, and that stupid leprechaun forever.

yup. Its because their players are iso scoring a ton... Tatum/Kyrie by the face stats seem to be playing well but tatum is bad offensively... Kyrie is playing well but the celtics system needs more ball movement which is kyries biggest flaw outside of defense normally... The reason they will be fine is because of their defense... Offense is alot easier to figure out.

More-Than-Most
11-23-2018, 05:16 AM
Worth mentioning that Kyrie sits at 9th in RPM right now, with Horford being the next Celtic at #50. Granted, it's a stat that grows in value as the season wears on. Regardless, if anything these issues are for Stevens to figure out. He has an abundance of ultra talented players on his team. Time to figure out how to get them to gel. It's still very early.

yup kyrie has been very good... he hurts the system that relies on ball movement more than anything and I dont think RPM takes that into account but i could be wrong... Its IT all over again except kyrie is better but the system is the end all be all in terms of how the ship moves forward and being the wheel instead of a cog in the wheel is where kyrie hurts the celtics. He needs to make the extra pass and get others going more... Nobody relies on a system more than the celtics... this is why they are losing.

buckalis
11-23-2018, 05:45 AM
yup kyrie has been very good... he hurts the system that relies on ball movement more than anything and I dont think RPM takes that into account but i could be wrong... Its IT all over again except kyrie is better but the system is the end all be all in terms of how the ship moves forward and being the wheel instead of a cog in the wheel is where kyrie hurts the celtics. He needs to make the extra pass and get others going more... Nobody relies on a system more than the celtics... this is why they are losing.

Well... the Bucks rely on a system as much or more than the Celtics, but yes, you are right that this is the issue... I will insist that the issue originates from Irving and Hayward feeling that their leadership role in the roster is under threat from Rozier and Tatum/Morris respectively. It all leads to "broken" locker room relationships thereafter...

I mentioned the Bucks earlier, because both teams have lots of similarities when it comes down to coaching/floor tactics importance and roster depth quality... The difference that makes the Bucks look so much better, is that they may have the best locker room relations in the league on top of the talent and it's all due to Giannis...

FlashBolt
11-23-2018, 06:06 AM
I guarantee if you ship Hayward away, the bleeding stops. Kyrie isn't the problem, man. Al Horford hasn't been playing well at all. It's bad enough he can't rebound but now he can't shoot the three and also his defense has looked miserable at times. Age seems to finally caught on. Jaylen Brown, we've seen what he could do last season. Problem is these young kids are asked to appease Hayward because Boston doesn't want their $30 million "star" player to sit there and do nothing. It was a failed project. Hayward can't do anything at a high level. Can't score, can't rebound, can't playmake, can't defend. You paid $30 million for that. Reality is, he's not healthy and with what? 20 games so far? Yeah, this isn't about getting back to b-ball shape. It's time to face the fact that he's done being a very good player and may have to settle for being a 4th-5th option. If anything, Hayward is very fortunate he had a contract locked in. Imagine how much money he loses out on if he didn't have a contract like his current one. Yikes. We're talking $100,000,000 minimum.

ewing
11-23-2018, 08:58 AM
yup kyrie has been very good... he hurts the system that relies on ball movement more than anything and I dont think RPM takes that into account but i could be wrong... Its IT all over again except kyrie is better but the system is the end all be all in terms of how the ship moves forward and being the wheel instead of a cog in the wheel is where kyrie hurts the celtics. He needs to make the extra pass and get others going more... Nobody relies on a system more than the celtics... this is why they are losing.

Nvm


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ZH721
11-23-2018, 11:33 AM
yup kyrie has been very good... he hurts the system that relies on ball movement more than anything and I dont think RPM takes that into account but i could be wrong... Its IT all over again except kyrie is better but the system is the end all be all in terms of how the ship moves forward and being the wheel instead of a cog in the wheel is where kyrie hurts the celtics. He needs to make the extra pass and get others going more... Nobody relies on a system more than the celtics... this is why they are losing.

Thereís absolutely no way youíve watched more than one Celtics game this year.

These takes arenít anywhere close to reality. Kyrie makes the extra pass all the time. He moves the ball just fine, and only breaks into iso when the clock is running down.

Please, for the sake of this forum, watch a Celtics game.

Hawkeye15
11-23-2018, 11:56 AM
I love how the blame always goes to Kyrie.

Let's ignore the fact that Jayson Tatum isn't playing well at all.

Let's ignore the fact that Jaylen Brown is playing like trash.

Let's ignore the fact that Horford is shooting badly from long range.

Let's ignore the fact that they've tried to force Hayward back into the game after he missed a full year because of a devastating injury.

Let's ignore that Kyrie has just returned from surgery himself.

But noooo, those things don't matter. Hayward being thrown big minutes after missing a full year has had ZERO effect on the chemistry - it's ALL Kyrie's fault. Nevermind the fact that Kyrie was leading them to a top record in the NBA last year. That never happened.

Combine all of the above with the Celtics likely overachieving a bit last year and there's your answer for just a measly 17 game sample.

You guys are a joke.

I mean, he hasn't been great, but my original post is why they haven't been good as a whole


They don't have a single rotation player that has more than 31.7% of their attempts at the rim, so they don't get easy looks at the rim and don't shoot very many FT's. They shoot a ton of 3's, but aren't making a ton of them. So basically, if you aren't hitting your 3's, and not scoring at the FT line, your efficiency is crap. Their 2 best players were coming off injury, their 2 young guys have struggled out of the gate, and they are clearly overthinking now.

Chronz
11-23-2018, 12:50 PM
If their best player has declined (horford) they won't be as gooder

Chronz
11-23-2018, 12:51 PM
Nvm


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Should be your sig/ motto

aman_13
11-23-2018, 12:52 PM
Tatum hasn't been as good but his scoring doesn't come within the flow of the offense like it did when Irving was out. However, they are working on making Tatum more aggressive. Hayward is still on a minutes limit and needs more time to get back into form and Brown is going through some early struggles as well.

Stevens talked about the defense being their calling card and working off that. They are buying in and i have seen nothing to indicate that aren't trying to make it work, for me it's just a matter of time.

Even if it's an up and down regular season, they should be the toughest out in the East.

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aman_13
11-23-2018, 12:54 PM
If their best player has declined (horford) they won't be as gooderI think he will get stronger as the team around him does.

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MILLERHIGHLIFE
11-23-2018, 01:18 PM
If their best player has declined (horford) they won't be as gooder

Horford is the Celtics glue guy. Does all the little things that get them wins. I noticed that in Celtics/Bucks series last year.

ewing
11-23-2018, 01:34 PM
Horford is the Celtics glue guy. Does all the little things that get them wins. I noticed that in Celtics/Bucks series last year.

Chronz is an old drunk. Horford is fine. Heíll wind up with his standard 15 and 7 or so and continue to be that glue guy


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buckalis
11-23-2018, 02:15 PM
Horford is the Celtics glue guy. Does all the little things that get them wins. I noticed that in Celtics/Bucks series last year.

Hortford and Rozier were the ones that got Celtics (just) passing the Bucks last season, but most out of all, it was the court advantage...

Vinylman
11-23-2018, 02:32 PM
Chronz is an old drunk. Horford is fine. Heíll wind up with his standard 15 and 7 or so and continue to be that glue guy


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I always like the guys I am paying $29 million a year described as "fine" and "glue guy"

ewing
11-23-2018, 02:41 PM
I always like the guys I am paying $29 million a year described as "fine" and "glue guy"

you donít seem to like anyone


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Vinylman
11-23-2018, 02:45 PM
you donít seem to like anyone


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what.. no NVM post

damn... you are really stepping it up with the analysis

well done

IKnowHoops
11-23-2018, 02:50 PM
There best player is an Iverson clone with 1/3 the athletic ability and 1/3 the court vision/passing ability.

MILLERHIGHLIFE
11-23-2018, 02:58 PM
Hortford and Rozier were the ones that got Celtics (just) passing the Bucks last season, but most out of all, it was the court advantage...

Well didn't help it was more less 2 versus 5 in that series. Giannis and Middleton were the main guys showing up each game. Celtics guys were gunning it every game. Bledsoe was horrible that series. Henson had one good game. Brogdon was okay in like two games. But we still pushed it to 7. Besides like I said Bucks roster was flawed last year besides lousy coaching. Like I suggested last trade deadline Bucks should of traded for Jordan even as a rental. Heck we let Parker walked anyway. Clippers wanted a few of our guys.

This year Bucks still lack a legit starting SG. Also another center since Henson is out 12 weeks or so. Maker is so so this year. Wood finally getting some minutes. He should be better then Maker. Lopez is old and injuryprone and we can't lean on him all season. Also need a back up PG yet.

Hawkeye15
11-23-2018, 02:58 PM
I always like the guys I am paying $29 million a year described as "fine" and "glue guy"

or their $31 million guy getting 9 shot attempts a game from the wing position.

The C's are still trying to figure out how best to utilize everyone, get healthy, build chemistry, etc. But they have limitations for sure, and I don't see them as a contender at all. Their best player is probably Irving, and you aren't winning anything substantial if he is your best player. Hayward is relegated to way more of a spot up guy than ever before, and the offense never attacks, instead jacking a ton of 3's, and their young guys have taken a step back so far.

I never bought into them as a contender, but I think they will figure it out and still eclipse 50 wins. I just don't think they can win deep into the playoffs with such bad offense, which isn't that fixable to me.

Also, can we calm down yet on how amazing Stevens is, or are we still riding him as the best young coach eva?

ewing
11-23-2018, 03:10 PM
what.. no NVM post

damn... you are really stepping it up with the analysis

well done

Thanks for proving my point


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Vinylman
11-23-2018, 03:21 PM
or their $31 million guy getting 9 shot attempts a game from the wing position.

The C's are still trying to figure out how best to utilize everyone, get healthy, build chemistry, etc. But they have limitations for sure, and I don't see them as a contender at all. Their best player is probably Irving, and you aren't winning anything substantial if he is your best player. Hayward is relegated to way more of a spot up guy than ever before, and the offense never attacks, instead jacking a ton of 3's, and their young guys have taken a step back so far.

I never bought into them as a contender, but I think they will figure it out and still eclipse 50 wins. I just don't think they can win deep into the playoffs with such bad offense, which isn't that fixable to me.

Also, can we calm down yet on how amazing Stevens is, or are we still riding him as the best young coach eva?

they need roster turnover to say the least. Like I said earlier in the thread they need to turn multiple pieces into elite pieces. Guys like Brown are worthless playing the 2. Hayward is the real question mark though... can he ever return to his prior form? time will tell

As for Stevens, he obviously is a good coach and has gotten the most out of the roster. the real question will be what can he do when they get truly elite players.

Vinylman
11-23-2018, 03:23 PM
Thanks for proving my point


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

you seem to confuse yourself with "anyone"

a little self reflection would be in order

Hawkeye15
11-23-2018, 03:25 PM
they need roster turnover to say the least. Like I said earlier in the thread they need to turn multiple pieces into elite pieces. Guys like Brown are worthless playing the 2. Hayward is the real question mark though... can he ever return to his prior form? time will tell

As for Stevens, he obviously is a good coach and has gotten the most out of the roster. the real question will be what can he do when they get truly elite players.

yep. I was borderline shocked they didn't go all in on Leonard. But even if worried he won't stay, the premise you are suggesting is right. They have a bunch of good NBA players, but nobody elite. And they pay 3 guys elite money. That is a limiting recipe, even if it confuses people with a bunch of regular season wins.

ZH721
11-23-2018, 03:26 PM
There best player is an Iverson clone with 1/3 the athletic ability and 1/3 the court vision/passing ability.

Kyrie is better than Iverson was lol. Kyrie is so much more efficient.

Hawkeye15
11-23-2018, 03:30 PM
Kyrie is better than Iverson was lol. Kyrie is so much more efficient.

you won't find me kind to Iverson in my posting history, but he was a better player than Irving is to date. Remember too when comparing, what era's they played under. Today, Iverson would be much more of a 3 shooter than yesterday, and vice versa. But overall, Iverson was better. He impacted winning more than Irving does.

Vinylman
11-23-2018, 04:04 PM
yep. I was borderline shocked they didn't go all in on Leonard. But even if worried he won't stay, the premise you are suggesting is right. They have a bunch of good NBA players, but nobody elite. And they pay 3 guys elite money. That is a limiting recipe, even if it confuses people with a bunch of regular season wins.

Ainge gets enamored with his assets. I like players like Tatum but if all it takes is Tatum/filler and a 1st for KL you do it. Hell, if it was Tatum/Brown/Filler for KL/Green you have to do it as you become instant favorites and that team with one or two other moves could compete in the finals THIS YEAR.


Anyway, they have a little time but just like the Lakers their young guys will lose more value over time.

ewing
11-23-2018, 04:04 PM
you seem to confuse yourself with "anyone"

a little self reflection would be in order

OK. He said the Celtics were worse b/c Al had regressed and isn't has good a player anymore. I said I don't think so and he will wind up with his typical numbers and role filled. You responded with an angry snarky post about his contract vs his production. I'll tell you now that your post as irrelevant to posts you were responding to and you'll respond with another angry monolog. Have a nice day

(maybe you should turn off the Black Flag albums for the first time in 25 years and stop thinking you are just angry b/c everyone else is so dumb and take some responsibility for it :))

R. Johnson#3
11-23-2018, 04:05 PM
Kyrie is better than Iverson was lol. Kyrie is so much more efficient.

Yeah but there's no way in hell Kyrie's body would allow him to average 41 minutes per game over his career. Prime AI was playing 43 MPG which is absurd. Yes, he was a volume scorer and his percentages are ugly but he was usually the toughest guy on the court whenever he was playing. He constantly got knocked around but kept going right at defenders. Granted the Sixer teams AI played on were catered to his style of play. He was very selfish and just needed to be surrounded with defenders. When he went to Denver he showed that he could actually put up decent percentages and share the ball if he has scorers around him.

If you put prime AI on today's Celtics squad and told him he was the starting PG then I think the Celts would actually be in better shape then they are with Kyrie. AI would have multiple weapons at his disposal and with how fouls are called in today's NBA, AI would be going to the line 15 times a game. No doubt. He'd also be able to finish even better at the rim. Kyrie has the best handles in todays NBA 100% but he's no AI.

Now lets put Kyrie on those Sixer squads. No shooters to kick out to, the offense is 100% on you and you'll get 5 minutes of rest a game. He'd play 50 games a season MAX and I would expect his shooting percentages to take a big hit.

Hawkeye15
11-23-2018, 04:07 PM
Ainge gets enamored with his assets. I like players like Tatum but if all it takes is Tatum/filler and a 1st for KL you do it. Hell, if it was Tatum/Brown/Filler for KL/Green you have to do it as you become instant favorites and that team with one or two other moves could compete in the finals THIS YEAR.


Anyway, they have a little time but just like the Lakers their young guys will lose more value over time.

Yeah my brother mentioned to me over the summer when KL became available they should give up Tatum and a filler, plus a pick. I blew it off, but he said the same thing. Barring Tatum turning into a star, he loses value by the year right now...

Hawkeye15
11-23-2018, 04:09 PM
Yeah but there's no way in hell Kyrie's body would allow him to average 41 minutes per game over his career. Prime AI was playing 43 MPG which is absurd. Yes, he was a volume scorer and his percentages are ugly but he was usually the toughest guy on the court whenever he was playing. He constantly got knocked around but kept going right at defenders. Granted the Sixer teams AI played on were catered to his style of play. He was very selfish and just needed to be surrounded with defenders. When he went to Denver he showed that he could actually put up decent percentages and share the ball if he has scorers around him.

If you put prime AI on today's Celtics squad and told him he was the starting PG then I think the Celts would actually be in better shape then they are with Kyrie. AI would have multiple weapons at his disposal and with how fouls are called in today's NBA, AI would be going to the line 15 times a game. No doubt. He'd also be able to finish even better at the rim. Kyrie has the best handles in todays NBA 100% but he's no AI.

Now lets put Kyrie on those Sixer squads. No shooters to kick out to, the offense is 100% on you and you'll get 5 minutes of rest a game. He'd play 50 games a season MAX.

I didn't even factor in Iverson the ironman versus Kyrie hurt every year for something or another. Good point.

And yeah, Irving had the level of responsibility very early on AI had, and his team was awful. Any team irving has won on, either had the GOAT part 2, or a roster loaded with talent. While AI is polarizing, and i have always been critical, he was a better player then Irving is, without question.

Vinylman
11-23-2018, 04:13 PM
OK. He said the Celtics were worse b/c Al had regressed and isn't has good a player anymore. I said I don't think so and he will wind up with his typical numbers and role filled. You responded with an angry snarky post about his contract vs his production. I'll tell you now that your post as irrelevant to posts you were responding to and you'll respond with another angry monolog. Have a nice day

(maybe you should turn off the Black Flag albums for the first time in 25 years and stop thinking you are just angry b/c everyone else is so dumb and take some responsibility for it :))

LMFAO

So my post is irrelevant based on your analysis that a 15/7 guy is fine...

he isn't when he is paid $29 million a year

maybe you should put down your Barbie dolls and develop some analytical skills.

Your understanding of "value" is non-existent

R. Johnson#3
11-23-2018, 04:17 PM
I didn't even factor in Iverson the ironman versus Kyrie hurt every year for something or another. Good point.

And yeah, Irving had the level of responsibility very early on AI had, and his team was awful. Any team irving has won on, either had the GOAT part 2, or a roster loaded with talent. While AI is polarizing, and i have always been critical, he was a better player then Irving is, without question.

They are very similar players and I do agree that AI was better. No question. Kyrie could never lead a team of nobodies plus an old Dikembe Mutumbo to the Finals.

ewing
11-23-2018, 04:32 PM
They are very similar players and I do agree that AI was better. No question. Kyrie could never lead a team of nobodies plus an old Dikembe Mutumbo to the Finals.

Well not in an era where the best players team up and everyone else tanks but maybe in the east circa 2001


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

ewing
11-23-2018, 04:35 PM
LMFAO

So my post is irrelevant based on your analysis that a 15/7 guy is fine...

he isn't when he is paid $29 million a year

maybe you should put down your Barbie dolls and develop some analytical skills.

Your understanding of "value" is non-existent

Been nice chatting with you


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

ZH721
11-23-2018, 07:29 PM
you won't find me kind to Iverson in my posting history, but he was a better player than Irving is to date. Remember too when comparing, what era's they played under. Today, Iverson would be much more of a 3 shooter than yesterday, and vice versa. But overall, Iverson was better. He impacted winning more than Irving does.

Thatís what we have TS% and eFG% for. The advanced stats favor Irving as well.

Iverson was an inefficient volume scorer for most of his career. That doesnít translate to winning. See Carmelo and all of the other guys who fit that mold.

ZH721
11-23-2018, 07:32 PM
Yeah but there's no way in hell Kyrie's body would allow him to average 41 minutes per game over his career. Prime AI was playing 43 MPG which is absurd. Yes, he was a volume scorer and his percentages are ugly but he was usually the toughest guy on the court whenever he was playing. He constantly got knocked around but kept going right at defenders. Granted the Sixer teams AI played on were catered to his style of play. He was very selfish and just needed to be surrounded with defenders. When he went to Denver he showed that he could actually put up decent percentages and share the ball if he has scorers around him.

If you put prime AI on today's Celtics squad and told him he was the starting PG then I think the Celts would actually be in better shape then they are with Kyrie. AI would have multiple weapons at his disposal and with how fouls are called in today's NBA, AI would be going to the line 15 times a game. No doubt. He'd also be able to finish even better at the rim. Kyrie has the best handles in todays NBA 100% but he's no AI.

Now lets put Kyrie on those Sixer squads. No shooters to kick out to, the offense is 100% on you and you'll get 5 minutes of rest a game. He'd play 50 games a season MAX and I would expect his shooting percentages to take a big hit.

Agree to disagree on basically all of that.

Iverson was an inefficient volume scorer. When has that ever translated to winning?

Hawkeye15
11-23-2018, 07:46 PM
Thatís what we have TS% and eFG% for. The advanced stats favor Irving as well.

Iverson was an inefficient volume scorer for most of his career. That doesnít translate to winning. See Carmelo and all of the other guys who fit that mold.

AI has plenty of advanced stats in his favor. Usage and role kill any level of responsibility Irving has too. Defense easily AI, and his iron man minutes and games played. Easy call

Hawkeye15
11-23-2018, 07:47 PM
Agree to disagree on basically all of that.

Iverson was an inefficient volume scorer. When has that ever translated to winning?

His Philly teams won plenty. AI wasn't a great player consistently but he was bettertha Irving

ZH721
11-23-2018, 07:50 PM
AI has plenty of advanced stats in his favor. Usage and role kill any level of responsibility Irving has too. Defense easily AI, and his iron man minutes and games played. Easy call

Plenty? No.

Take your inefficient chucker. Your stance on hating Kyrie is well known, not sure how valid your opinion is.

ZH721
11-23-2018, 07:50 PM
His Philly teams won plenty. AI wasn't a great player consistently but he was bettertha Irving

Based on what stat? Just give me one that says Iverson wasnít an inefficient chucker for the majority of his career.

R. Johnson#3
11-23-2018, 08:45 PM
Agree to disagree on basically all of that.

Iverson was an inefficient volume scorer. When has that ever translated to winning?

I'm curious, did you get to watch AI play when he was on the 76ers?

More-Than-Most
11-23-2018, 09:05 PM
Agree to disagree on basically all of that.

Iverson was an inefficient volume scorer. When has that ever translated to winning?


Plenty? No.

Take your inefficient chucker. Your stance on hating Kyrie is well known, not sure how valid your opinion is.

agree to disagree mainly because you have no rebuttal for anything he said because what he said was true... Your Bias is strongly showing in favor of kyrie... I would take iverson 10 out of 10 times over kyrie and I am one of the biggest iverson haters on this site... Kyrie as the guy without lebron or a team loaded with talent in a league where you had to defend or take hits when you drive etc? Kyrie wouldnt make it 50 games playing the minutes or carrying the load like iverson did.

ZH721
11-23-2018, 10:33 PM
I'm curious, did you get to watch AI play when he was on the 76ers?

Yes. A lot.

Inefficient volume scorer then, inefficient volume scorer now. At his peak he attempted 27.8 shots per game averaging 31.4 PPG.

Thereís tons of guys in the NBA who will score more than that if you give them 27 ****ing shots. Iverson WAS very overrated, but as people become more educated on advanced stats and efficiency, the view on him is turning around. Youíll come around.

ZH721
11-23-2018, 10:37 PM
agree to disagree mainly because you have no rebuttal for anything he said because what he said was true... Your Bias is strongly showing in favor of kyrie... I would take iverson 10 out of 10 times over kyrie and I am one of the biggest iverson haters on this site... Kyrie as the guy without lebron or a team loaded with talent in a league where you had to defend or take hits when you drive etc? Kyrie wouldnt make it 50 games playing the minutes or carrying the load like iverson did.

Pull up a basketball reference page and thereís no argument.

Kyrie is one of, if not the best finisher in the league. Heíd do just fine.

R. Johnson#3
11-24-2018, 12:31 PM
Yes. A lot.

Inefficient volume scorer then, inefficient volume scorer now. At his peak he attempted 27.8 shots per game averaging 31.4 PPG.

Thereís tons of guys in the NBA who will score more than that if you give them 27 ****ing shots. Iverson WAS very overrated, but as people become more educated on advanced stats and efficiency, the view on him is turning around. Youíll come around.

If he's so inefficient then how come he could drag a team of nobodies to the finals where as Kyrie couldn't even make the playoffs without having the best player in the World on his squad? Also, prior to Lebron Kyrie was putting up 20 points a night on 17 shots so I don't see that big of a discrepancy aside from the fact that one of the guys was good enough to make the playoffs year in year out.

I don't believe you watched AI play because all you do is reference stats. The ball was in his hands basically every second he was on the floor. He also played more minutes than anyone else. No player has ever taken on so much responsibility and the guy was a bloody toothpick!

Do you honestly think todays NBA guards could come in and play 40 + minutes of getting double teamed all the time because nobody else on your team is a threat and still put up good percentages? It's so much more than just the 27 shots. You need to look at what was around him and the workload he was tasked with. It's absolutely insane. There isn't a single guard today who could go into that situation and put up 30 points a night even with the 28 shots and I'm confident in saying that. Not when you factor in the team and minutes played night in and night out.

Once he went to Denver and had some weapons to work with he was putting up 26 a night on 19 shots while still playing 42 minutes a night when he was 32. Kyrie was able to put up 25 points on 20 shots a night while playing with Lebron and might be retired by 32.

ZH721
11-24-2018, 12:46 PM
If he's so inefficient then how come he could drag a team of nobodies to the finals where as Kyrie couldn't even make the playoffs without having the best player in the World on his squad? Also, prior to Lebron Kyrie was putting up 20 points a night on 17 shots so I don't see that big of a discrepancy aside from the fact that one of the guys was good enough to make the playoffs year in year out.

What do you mean ďifĒ? He was inefficient. Thatís not opinion, thatís fact.


I don't believe you watched AI play because all you do is reference stats. The ball was in his hands basically every second he was on the floor. He also played more minutes than anyone else. No player has ever taken on so much responsibility and the guy was a bloody toothpick!

Because no one cared about efficiency then. It was all about counting stats. Itís like RBIís and Wins for MLB. Now that people actually care about a players impact on winning, we see Iversonís true value.


Do you honestly think todays NBA guards could come in and play 40 + minutes of getting double teamed all the time because nobody else on your team is a threat and still put up good percentages? It's so much more than just the 27 shots. You need to look at what was around him and the workload he was tasked with. It's absolutely insane. There isn't a single guard today who could go into that situation and put up 30 points a night even with the 28 shots and I'm confident in saying that. Not when you factor in the team and minutes played night in and night out.

You act like he played with D-Leaguers. Plenty of guards would score more.


Once he went to Denver and had some weapons to work with he was putting up 26 a night on 19 shots while still playing 42 minutes a night when he was 32. Kyrie was able to put up 25 points on 20 shots a night while playing with Lebron and might be retired by 32.

Congrats to him for actually being above the league average TS% that year. Big accomplishment! His 20.9 PER and .163 WS/48 that year are almost as good overall as Kyrieís career average!

R. Johnson#3
11-24-2018, 01:27 PM
What do you mean ďifĒ? He was inefficient. Thatís not opinion, thatís fact.



Because no one cared about efficiency then. It was all about counting stats. Itís like RBIís and Wins for MLB. Now that people actually care about a players impact on winning, we see Iversonís true value.



You act like he played with D-Leaguers. Plenty of guards would score more.



Congrats to him for actually being above the league average TS% that year. Big accomplishment! His 20.9 PER and .163 WS/48 that year are almost as good overall as Kyrieís career average!

Efficiency wasn't important back then. I'm not trying to argue that. What I'm trying to say is those Sixer teams were designed for AI to literally do everything on offense and the point I've been trying to make is that Kyrie couldn't handle that workload. Not a chance. Then if you were to put AI in a situation like Kyrie is/has been in then he would thrive. It's more than stats in this situation. There isn't a single guard that could take the beating that AI did night in and night out. AI couldn't take rest days either because his team would get the **** kicked out of them.

Also, AI basically did drag a team of D-Leaguers and half a season of Dikembe Mutumbo to the finals. Look at that roster! Do you honestly think that Kyrie could drag that team to the playoffs let alone the finals?

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/PHI/2001.html

ZH721
11-24-2018, 01:58 PM
Efficiency wasn't important back then. I'm not trying to argue that. What I'm trying to say is those Sixer teams were designed for AI to literally do everything on offense and the point I've been trying to make is that Kyrie couldn't handle that workload. Not a chance. Then if you were to put AI in a situation like Kyrie is/has been in then he would thrive. It's more than stats in this situation. There isn't a single guard that could take the beating that AI did night in and night out. AI couldn't take rest days either because his team would get the **** kicked out of them.

Also, AI basically did drag a team of D-Leaguers and half a season of Dikembe Mutumbo to the finals. Look at that roster! Do you honestly think that Kyrie could drag that team to the playoffs let alone the finals?

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/PHI/2001.html

Saying Kyrie wouldnít be able to do what AI did and then saying AI would thrive in Kyrieís position is ****ing ********.

Kyrie wouldnít be able to shoot better than a .518 TS% on 25.5 shots a game?

You guys were hypnotized by AIís moves and counting numbers (PPG) and looked directly past his inefficiency which hurt his team.

FlashBolt
11-24-2018, 02:50 PM
As a scorer, Kyrie is definitely better than AI but the difference lies in that AI was such a fearless player so that made up for a lot of factors. I'll take Kyrie, though. Never was a huge AI fan.

R. Johnson#3
11-24-2018, 05:11 PM
Saying Kyrie wouldnít be able to do what AI did and then saying AI would thrive in Kyrieís position is ****ing ********.

Kyrie wouldnít be able to shoot better than a .518 TS% on 25.5 shots a game?

You guys were hypnotized by AIís moves and counting numbers (PPG) and looked directly past his inefficiency which hurt his team.

Again, you completely ignore my point and go directly to stats. In no way am I hypnotized by AI's PPG. I've literally explained over and over again it's the workload he took on and the way he played which puts him above Kyrie. Kyrie is more efficient than AI. I am agreeing with you there yet I would still choose Iverson because of his ability to shoulder an insane workload.

Remember that one year when everyone except Lebron got hurt as the playoffs progressed? As he took on a heavier workload with no star talent around him, what happened? His percentages took a hit. A big hit. You know why his percentages took a hit? Because he had to do everything. This is what AI had to do every single game of the season. Do you think the Cavs would've won a single game that series had it been Lebron who went down and not Kyrie?

I usually stay away from debating players from different eras because there's no right answer but you won't convince me to take Kyrie over AI. There's also no way Kyrie's body could survive playing as much as AI did with such little help around him. His percentages would fall. Lebron's sure did.

ZH721
11-24-2018, 05:30 PM
Again, you completely ignore my point and go directly to stats. In no way am I hypnotized by AI's PPG. I've literally explained over and over again it's the workload he took on and the way he played which puts him above Kyrie. Kyrie is more efficient than AI. I am agreeing with you there yet I would still choose Iverson because of his ability to shoulder an insane workload.

So having a bigger workload means youíre automatically better than someone with a smaller workload? There are tons and tons of player who can (and would love to) shoot 27 times a night. That usually doesnít equate to a better chance of winning, which is why we donít see it often.


Remember that one year when everyone except Lebron got hurt as the playoffs progressed? As he took on a heavier workload with no star talent around him, what happened? His percentages took a hit. A big hit. You know why his percentages took a hit? Because he had to do everything. This is what AI had to do every single game of the season. Do you think the Cavs would've won a single game that series had it been Lebron who went down and not Kyrie?

Timofey Mozgov was the Cavaliers 2nd leading scorer that series. AI never had it that bad lol. Timofey ****ing Mozgov.


I usually stay away from debating players from different eras because there's no right answer but you won't convince me to take Kyrie over AI. There's also no way Kyrie's body could survive playing as much as AI did with such little help around him. His percentages would fall. Lebron's sure did.

Thatís fine, youíre entitled to your opinion.

Iíll look at the stats that favor Kyrie, along with knowing that AIís lack of efficiency doesnít lead to winning.

Vee-Rex
11-24-2018, 05:40 PM
Efficiency wasn't important back then.

https://media.giphy.com/media/1PgPvWLfXGkCY/giphy.gif

R. Johnson#3
11-24-2018, 06:17 PM
https://media.giphy.com/media/1PgPvWLfXGkCY/giphy.gif

I was agreeing with what he said earlier. There wasn't as much attention paid to it back then.

Hawkeye15
11-26-2018, 12:44 PM
Based on what stat? Just give me one that says Iverson wasnít an inefficient chucker for the majority of his career.

AI had 5 seasons with a higher VORP than Irving has ever kicked out, his usage/role dominate Irving, his dependability dominate Irving who seems to get hurt at the worst possible times, his on/off numbers dominate Irving (I have covered how Irving's teams literally don't miss him when he is gone), AI was a much better defender, despite not even being a very good one.

You are also not understanding that in today's NBA, AI would be much more of a 3 point shooter, and he would literally live at the line. Efficiency was important at all times in history, but it wasn't stressed like it is today back then, because it wasn't understood as much. Iverson would shoot way more 3's (and be better at them), less 2's, and in a league where guards can't be touched and have all the rules in their favor, AI would be even better today.

Iverson, might be the most overrated player in history. He, like Irving, appeal to the archaic basketball fan in all of us, dribbling excessively but cool looking, jukes, cool moves, blah blah blah. Iverson was overrated, but Irving is criminally overrated.

QBAwayBroncos
11-27-2018, 12:43 AM
They realize that Jimmy Butler in Philadelphia means they are finished anyway. Therefore all there guy's are playing for self

MILLERHIGHLIFE
11-27-2018, 01:58 PM
1067248584532389888

ewing
11-27-2018, 02:01 PM
1067248584532389888

Its Kyrie's fault

IKnowHoops
11-27-2018, 05:48 PM
Kyrie is better than Iverson was lol. Kyrie is so much more efficient.

No, heís not close to Iverson. Iverson passes and gets steals. 33/7

MILLERHIGHLIFE
11-28-2018, 08:46 AM
1067629225392463872

Jamiecballer
11-28-2018, 07:19 PM
I don't have anything against the Boston Celtics. But I am so enjoying the noise from afar on account of the smugness of their fans this offseason.

Sent from my SM-A520W using Tapatalk

smith&wesson
11-29-2018, 10:36 AM
I don't have anything against the Boston Celtics. But I am so enjoying the noise from afar on account of the smugness of their fans this offseason.

Sent from my SM-A520W using Tapatalk

+1

Hawkeye15
11-29-2018, 11:00 AM
+1

+2

Rivera
11-29-2018, 11:08 AM
are we pinning all of the Celtics problems on Kyrie?

Hawkeye15
11-29-2018, 11:11 AM
are we pinning all of the Celtics problems on Kyrie?

this was my early post



They don't have a single rotation player that has more than 31.7% of their attempts at the rim, so they don't get easy looks at the rim and don't shoot very many FT's. They shoot a ton of 3's, but aren't making a ton of them. So basically, if you aren't hitting your 3's, and not scoring at the FT line, your efficiency is crap. Their 2 best players were coming off injury, their 2 young guys have struggled out of the gate, and they are clearly overthinking now.

Look, my opinions on Kyrie are firm. If he is your best player, you likely aren't very good. Boston is loaded with talent, so there is plenty of coverup, and Irving is playing alright, but his advanced numbers are deceiving. He doesn't impact winning much. That being said, he is far from the reason they are so pedestrian. Just like he is far from the reason when his teams are really good.

IKnowHoops
11-29-2018, 01:15 PM
They are very similar players and I do agree that AI was better. No question. Kyrie could never lead a team of nobodies plus an old Dikembe Mutumbo to the Finals.

Yeah never. AI was unstoppable in that you knew what he was going to do every time and defenses were 100% geared to stopping him and they couldnít even though everything they did was put in place to stop him.

Basically what Lebron did against GS that first year in Cleveland when he scored 38 a game on low percentage because he didnít have Kyrie or Love...thatís what AI did for an entire career. Kyrie could not carry a team on his back if he had to shoot every time, and heíd be easier to stop, beat up, and shut down.

IKnowHoops
11-29-2018, 01:18 PM
I'm curious, did you get to watch AI play when he was on the 76ers?

No way he watched him.

ewing
11-29-2018, 01:18 PM
Yeah never. AI was unstoppable in that you knew what he was going to do every time and defenses were 100% geared to stopping him and they couldnít even though everything they did was put in place to stop him.

Basically what Lebron did against GS that first year in Cleveland when he scored 38 a game on low percentage because he didnít have Kyrie or Love...thatís what AI did for an entire career. Kyrie could not carry a team on his back if he had to shoot every time, and heíd be easier to stop, beat up, and shut down.

110%.

IKnowHoops
11-29-2018, 01:46 PM
What do you mean ďifĒ? He was inefficient. Thatís not opinion, thatís fact.



Because no one cared about efficiency then. It was all about counting stats. Itís like RBIís and Wins for MLB. Now that people actually care about a players impact on winning, we see Iversonís true value.



You act like he played with D-Leaguers. Plenty of guards would score more.



Congrats to him for actually being above the league average TS% that year. Big accomplishment! His 20.9 PER and .163 WS/48 that year are almost as good overall as Kyrieís career average!

Iím not sure you have a point. At 32 a 5í11 pg is well past his Prime.

Hawkeye15
11-29-2018, 03:06 PM
Yeah never. AI was unstoppable in that you knew what he was going to do every time and defenses were 100% geared to stopping him and they couldnít even though everything they did was put in place to stop him.

Basically what Lebron did against GS that first year in Cleveland when he scored 38 a game on low percentage because he didnít have Kyrie or Love...thatís what AI did for an entire career. Kyrie could not carry a team on his back if he had to shoot every time, and heíd be easier to stop, beat up, and shut down.

let's not compare what AI ever did to what LeBron did haha. But role wise, sure.

I never respected AI until I scored 2nd row tix behind the basket to a Rockets game in 2001 or around there. He didn't have a great shooting night, but he came down 3 straight times and attacked the paint, and just took a beating. He got fouled pretty hard on the first drive. Dude was right back in it next time down. And again. He played with literally zero fear. Add to it, I didn't know how small he actually was until I saw him up close. That guy was a warrior. And while I think he is overrated in the scheme of things, I would take him on my team anytime.

The comparison between he and Irving I get, but give me a break, Irving can't carry AI's jock strap.

R. Johnson#3
11-29-2018, 04:18 PM
Yeah never. AI was unstoppable in that you knew what he was going to do every time and defenses were 100% geared to stopping him and they couldnít even though everything they did was put in place to stop him.

Basically what Lebron did against GS that first year in Cleveland when he scored 38 a game on low percentage because he didnít have Kyrie or Love...thatís what AI did for an entire career. Kyrie could not carry a team on his back if he had to shoot every time, and heíd be easier to stop, beat up, and shut down.

Yup. As I said earlier, AI was usually the toughest guy on the floor.

ZH721
11-29-2018, 07:40 PM
No way he watched him.

I watched him throughout his whole career. Less-educated and more casual basketball fans are dazzled by scoring and fancy moves, no matter the efficiency. Canít say Iím overly shocked that a good majority of this forum seems to fit that category.

Hawkeye15
11-30-2018, 11:20 AM
I watched him throughout his whole career. Less-educated and more casual basketball fans are dazzled by scoring and fancy moves, no matter the efficiency. Canít say Iím overly shocked that a good majority of this forum seems to fit that category.

you just described Irving. But replace efficiency with impact on your next sentence. Again, Iverson's impact to winning was always far greater, as was his dependability.

Yep, this forum (and many fans in general) are way too high on AI, and now Irving.

ewing
11-30-2018, 11:41 AM
Im not saying it Kyrie Iving but its Kyrie Irving

Hawkeye15
11-30-2018, 11:42 AM
Im not saying it Kyrie Iving but its Kyrie Irving

never said he is the root of their issues. In fact quite the opposite. But yes, you are limited if he is your best player.

ZH721
12-01-2018, 01:07 PM
you just described Irving. But replace efficiency with impact on your next sentence. Again, Iverson's impact to winning was always far greater, as was his dependability.

Yep, this forum (and many fans in general) are way too high on AI, and now Irving.

Do you feel the same way about Kemba Walker? He has a higher usage percentage, the same amount of APG, and their TS% is .001 difference.

This ďimpact of winningĒ thing makes no sense. Itís literally because you donít like Irving lol.

Plenty of other players with a similar or higher usage and worse efficiency.

buckalis
12-01-2018, 01:25 PM
Nothing is really wrong with the Celtics... They have benched Hayward and Brown, replaced them with Morris and Smart in the starting roster and are back on winning... Smart coach Stevens... I think he will suggest to the FO that they should trade Hayward Rozier & Brown by the deadline...

EDIT: Good "sweeteners" Rozier and Brown for Hayward's bad contract...

ZH721
12-01-2018, 01:56 PM
Nothing is really wrong with the Celtics... They have benched Hayward and Brown, replaced them with Morris and Smart in the starting roster and are back on winning... Smart coach Stevens... I think he will suggest to the FO that they should trade Hayward Rozier & Brown by the deadline...

EDIT: Good "sweeteners" Rozier and Brown for Hayward's bad contract...

Rozier maybe. The other two can and will stay baring a blockbuster with a huge star coming to Boston.

Hayward is looking better every day. Itís mostly mental at this point. When he drives to the lane, heíll sometimes be hesitant when finishing and miss a layup. Once he starts going up stronger and dunking on those drives like he used to, heíll be fine.

buckalis
12-01-2018, 02:34 PM
Rozier maybe. The other two can and will stay baring a blockbuster with a huge star coming to Boston.

Hayward is looking better every day. Itís mostly mental at this point. When he drives to the lane, heíll sometimes be hesitant when finishing and miss a layup. Once he starts going up stronger and dunking on those drives like he used to, heíll be fine.

You forget the "Smart coach Stevens" part in my post... A smart and capable coach, knows that team work is much more effective than any superstar trying to prove what his worth is on the floor...

What a team really needs as core roster other than their starting five, is having 3 more guys on the bench... a combo guard that can replace 1&2, a wing that can replace 3&4 and an extra big... if it has 4 guys in the bench, even the better...

The Celtics problem up to now has been that they have 12 (3 too many), one looking to take the other's place... a man coming from bench should be one that knows his place in the roster... look at the Bucks, they are a reference example to be copied on the matter...

Trading all Hayward, Rozier & Brown for the right bench pieces, would turn the Celtics to a much better team (IMO) and Stevens is smart enough to have realized that...

Heck... I was thinking the other day that if the Celtics had (our) Middleton instead of Hayward and no Brown or Rozier... they could end up winning the championship by playing Khris a starter and Morris coming from bench in a small rotation... Thank God they don't!

Vee-Rex
12-01-2018, 05:41 PM
https://www.nbcsports.com/boston/celtics/celtics-kyrie-irving-challenged-himself-be-better-defensively-how-he-doing

Just thought I'd drop this here.

ewing
12-01-2018, 07:51 PM
https://www.nbcsports.com/boston/celtics/celtics-kyrie-irving-challenged-himself-be-better-defensively-how-he-doing

Just thought I'd drop this here.

He has very little impact on winning


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Corey
12-02-2018, 01:36 PM
Nothing is really wrong with the Celtics... They have benched Hayward and Brown, replaced them with Morris and Smart in the starting roster and are back on winning... Smart coach Stevens... I think he will suggest to the FO that they should trade Hayward Rozier & Brown by the deadline...

EDIT: Good "sweeteners" Rozier and Brown for Hayward's bad contract...
Hayward is coming off a horrific injury, similar to George, who took 15+ months to get back to his old self. Having Gordon Hayward in trade talks is short sighted and frankly dumb.

Also Hayward wasn't "benched". He was put with the second unit for an opportunity to be more aggressive and find his offense.

But hey, people see stat sheets and make assumptions and think they know the team

PAOboston
12-02-2018, 04:49 PM
Cs starting to figure it out and chemistry looking much better. Hayward looking better and better. Cs have had in of the toughest schedules so far. They are starting to figure it out and will a soft schedule coming up, thereís a chance they rip off a nice winning streak over the next week or so.

People were too quick to bury the Cs.


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ewing
12-02-2018, 08:20 PM
Cs starting to figure it out and chemistry looking much better. Hayward looking better and better. Cs have had in of the toughest schedules so far. They are starting to figure it out and will a soft schedule coming up, thereís a chance they rip off a nice winning streak over the next week or so.

People were too quick to bury the Cs.


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Thatís what happens when you get hyped. I still think they can be a legit title contender


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Hawkeye15
12-03-2018, 12:00 PM
Do you feel the same way about Kemba Walker? He has a higher usage percentage, the same amount of APG, and their TS% is .001 difference.

This ďimpact of winningĒ thing makes no sense. Itís literally because you donít like Irving lol.

Plenty of other players with a similar or higher usage and worse efficiency.

or because we have tons of evidence showing his teams don't miss him when he is out. Or value added stats. They don't like him either. But, keep pointing to a stat they didn't give a **** about in 2000. Like I said, AI wouldn't be the long 2 chucker he was today. He would live at the line and his efficiency would be above league average.

Hawkeye15
12-03-2018, 12:03 PM
https://www.nbcsports.com/boston/celtics/celtics-kyrie-irving-challenged-himself-be-better-defensively-how-he-doing

Just thought I'd drop this here.

I mean, Rose and Rondo graded out as elite defenders when they were surrounded by an awesome defense. To be fair, I haven't watched Irving much defensively this year, and guys can always improve really poor parts of their game at any point, so who knows, maybe he is an improved defender. Maybe sustain it and he will get some credit.

Hawkeye15
12-03-2018, 12:04 PM
btw, I have been called an AI hater around 1000 times. I still like him a lot more than Irving.

AntiG
12-06-2018, 11:47 AM
Irving is a lot better defender than he gets credit for. Might be an inspiration/effort thing, but he's been getting chase-down blocks and plenty of steals/knockaways while playing solid defense. Maybe it was due to watching Isaiah play defense for the past few years, but KI has been a HUGE upgrade defensively, especially this season where he's stepped it up.

Hawkeye15
12-06-2018, 12:38 PM
Irving is a lot better defender than he gets credit for. Might be an inspiration/effort thing, but he's been getting chase-down blocks and plenty of steals/knockaways while playing solid defense. Maybe it was due to watching Isaiah play defense for the past few years, but KI has been a HUGE upgrade defensively, especially this season where he's stepped it up.

Irving does have the first positive Defensive metrics of his career this year. Will he sustain it?

warfelg
12-06-2018, 12:57 PM
Irving does have the first positive Defensive metrics of his career this year. Will he sustain it?

I remember at the start of last year he was on the same trajectory and ended up sinking to his mean.

Hawkeye15
12-06-2018, 01:15 PM
I remember at the start of last year he was on the same trajectory and ended up sinking to his mean.

it's exactly what I expect to happen this year as well.

Lil Rhody
12-13-2018, 09:29 AM
<@;0)

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Hawkeye15
12-13-2018, 11:23 AM
<@;0)

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The C's have beaten zero teams in their 7 game win streak that would make the playoffs if they started today.

AntiG
12-13-2018, 03:47 PM
you can only beat who is on your schedule.

Its not like the C's haven't beaten good teams this year. They've beaten the Raptors, Bucks, 76ers, Thunder before this win streak started.

Hawkeye15
12-13-2018, 03:53 PM
you can only beat who is on your schedule.

Its not like the C's haven't beaten good teams this year. They've beaten the Raptors, Bucks, 76ers, Thunder before this win streak started.

totally dude. I was simply responding to johnny come lately after a win streak haha.

Notice great teams always beat bad teams. That is the easiest way to get that record way up there :)

PAOboston
12-14-2018, 09:38 AM
totally dude. I was simply responding to johnny come lately after a win streak haha.

Notice great teams always beat bad teams. That is the easiest way to get that record way up there :)

Yeah, itís been a welcome sight. They are actually destroying the bad teams now which is what they should have been doing.

They def had some growing pains the first 15-20 games of the season because the lost to like 4 lottery teams in that span (while somehow beating PHI, TOR, MIL,OKC while playing like doo doo) which made it very confusing seeing the way their were playing.

Overall, they look much better now just via eye test at this point or more in sync. Step in the right direction for sure.


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Hawkeye15
12-14-2018, 10:25 AM
Yeah, itís been a welcome sight. They are actually destroying the bad teams now which is what they should have been doing.

They def had some growing pains the first 15-20 games of the season because the lost to like 4 lottery teams in that span (while somehow beating PHI, TOR, MIL,OKC while playing like doo doo) which made it very confusing seeing the way their were playing.

Overall, they look much better now just via eye test at this point or more in sync. Step in the right direction for sure.


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Well, my first post touched on their problems, to me. They had their 2 best players outside Horford returning from injury, their young guys were underperforming, and they weren't hitting their 3's, or getting to the line. The defense was fine, and you figured they would start to shift to the mean in regards to shooting. Sometimes you just need a spell like this where you can beat up on some bad teams and get your mojo back.

I still think Toronto will knock them out of the playoffs, but it's a 3 team race in the east this year. There was no reason Boston shouldn't have recovered and win 50 games or more, which they are now on pace to do.

ZH721
12-14-2018, 12:12 PM
The C's have beaten zero teams in their 7 game win streak that would make the playoffs if they started today.

Theyíve demolished most of those teams.

rc33
12-14-2018, 02:50 PM
The C's have beaten zero teams in their 7 game win streak that would make the playoffs if they started today.

They also played 8 Western Conference road games in their first 22. Weird scheduling. And now they're going thru a few easier opponents and more home games.
However, anyone paying attention can clearly see this current Celtics team is simply playing better than they did earlier in the season. Long way to go but they appear to be finding their stride.

Hawkeye15
12-14-2018, 03:34 PM
They also played 8 Western Conference road games in their first 22. Weird scheduling. And now they're going thru a few easier opponents and more home games.
However, anyone paying attention can clearly see this current Celtics team is simply playing better than they did earlier in the season. Long way to go but they appear to be finding their stride.

well, it's geography. You don't fly a zillion miles to play the Kings then go home haha. Any team on a west coast trip usually gets 3-4 in a row, unless they happen to be out there. Same for teams coming a distance to the east coast. Stevens is a pretty good coach, you had to figure it was only a matter of time before the offense started working more fluid.

bagwell368
12-17-2018, 08:40 AM
btw, I have been called an AI hater around 1000 times. I still like him a lot more than Irving.

Ugh.

Since Irving came to the C's he's played some D. I would rate him maybe 10/30 when he's amped and 20/30 when he is not. He can absolutely get shots off close to the bucket (and not get blocked) with bigs nearby in a way i just can't believe.

AI was a volume scorer, Irving shoots better. He passes better and defends better (not the steals, the actual work of proper position and getting low).

He doesn't appear to be as divisive as AI, nor is he a convicted criminal.

bagwell368
12-17-2018, 08:41 AM
I remember at the start of last year he was on the same trajectory and ended up sinking to his mean.

His knee had something to do with that.

bagwell368
12-17-2018, 08:46 AM
I watched him throughout his whole career. Less-educated and more casual basketball fans are dazzled by scoring and fancy moves, no matter the efficiency. Canít say Iím overly shocked that a good majority of this forum seems to fit that category.

x2

AI is one of the 12 most divisive players in NBA history, selfish to a fault.

This whole tough guy and fashion leader crap is crap. He passed when he was in trouble - that's it.

Too small to be a SG, poor passer for a PG. Volume scoring dog.

bagwell368
12-17-2018, 08:51 AM
or because we have tons of evidence showing his teams don't miss him when he is out. Or value added stats. They don't like him either. But, keep pointing to a stat they didn't give a **** about in 2000. Like I said, AI wouldn't be the long 2 chucker he was today. He would live at the line and his efficiency would be above league average.

KI has a ring, and hit the shot that won it.

AI never had a ring and despite making the Finals was never close.

Irving is a lot better than who they traded to get him - win for the C's.

MILLERHIGHLIFE
12-17-2018, 09:29 AM
Yeah, itís been a welcome sight. They are actually destroying the bad teams now which is what they should have been doing.

They def had some growing pains the first 15-20 games of the season because the lost to like 4 lottery teams in that span (while somehow beating PHI, TOR, MIL,OKC while playing like doo doo) which made it very confusing seeing the way their were playing.

Overall, they look much better now just via eye test at this point or more in sync. Step in the right direction for sure.


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It took the Celtics breaking their own three point shooting record to barely beat my Bucks.

Hawkeye15
12-17-2018, 10:47 AM
Ugh.

Since Irving came to the C's he's played some D. I would rate him maybe 10/30 when he's amped and 20/30 when he is not. He can absolutely get shots off close to the bucket (and not get blocked) with bigs nearby in a way i just can't believe.

AI was a volume scorer, Irving shoots better. He passes better and defends better (not the steals, the actual work of proper position and getting low).

He doesn't appear to be as divisive as AI, nor is he a convicted criminal.

I will address all your posts to me here,

No offense bag, but you are a Boston fan, and hate AI far more than even I do.

You can have Irving. Good luck with him as your best player dude. His defense looked acceptable for periods of time before he pulled a no show as usual before.

I addressed the shooting. Today, AI would have been brought up with the 3 ball being important. And he would have pulled a Harden and had more FT's than FG's possibly. In an era where math runs the playbook, I tend to not give efficiency the same weight I used to.

Teams have not missed Irving when he sits really. Sure LeBron could have used him in a couple of playoff runs, but statistically, his teams don't suffer when he is gone much.

Like AI before him, I think this guy is the most overrated player in the game. Luckily he had LeBron James as a teammate, and got himself a ring when he got hot. When AI got hot like that, he didn't have the 2nd best player in history alongside of him, outplaying him, to help. So that is why AI is ringless, and KI isn't.

ewing
12-17-2018, 09:51 PM
I will address all your posts to me here,

No offense bag, but you are a Boston fan, and hate AI far more than even I do.

You can have Irving. Good luck with him as your best player dude. His defense looked acceptable for periods of time before he pulled a no show as usual before.

I addressed the shooting. Today, AI would have been brought up with the 3 ball being important. And he would have pulled a Harden and had more FT's than FG's possibly. In an era where math runs the playbook, I tend to not give efficiency the same weight I used to.

Teams have not missed Irving when he sits really. Sure LeBron could have used him in a couple of playoff runs, but statistically, his teams don't suffer when he is gone much.

Like AI before him, I think this guy is the most overrated player in the game. Luckily he had LeBron James as a teammate, and got himself a ring when he got hot. When AI got hot like that, he didn't have the 2nd best player in history alongside of him, outplaying him, to help. So that is why AI is ringless, and KI isn't.

Donít you mean LeBron was lucky he had Kyrie? We saw how he faired against the Warriors with out him. It wasnít pretty


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Ishkabibble
12-17-2018, 10:03 PM
So uh, no offense but you're a Boston fan hence anything your gonna say about AI really doesn't matter. And apparently you're completely incapable of being objective.

Hawkeye15
12-18-2018, 10:46 AM
Donít you mean LeBron was lucky he had Kyrie? We saw how he faired against the Warriors with out him. It wasnít pretty


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hahahahahahahahaha

Kyrie wouldn't have sniffed the playoffs without him. I love how you demand LeBron wins alone but then a in another thread you are actually trying to prop up Larry ****ing Bird on his level, someone who had one of the greatest rosters ever.

ewing
12-18-2018, 10:58 AM
hahahahahahahahaha

Kyrie wouldn't have sniffed the playoffs without him. I love how you demand LeBron wins alone but then a in another thread you are actually trying to prop up Larry ****ing Bird on his level, someone who had one of the greatest rosters ever.

I didn't demand he do anything. You said Kyrie wasn't missed when he sat. Clev getting there doors blown off without him suggest otherwise. I am more then willing to admit that LeBron is great but shot 30 something % and got smoked when he faced GS with a bad injury riddled roaster. Its wasn't his fault they lost. His team was out gunned and needed Kyrie because that guy makes a difference. You can't help but talk out both sides of your mouth when it comes to these two. Just face it, they are both really good and needed each other

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZ8yCJgsF_4

Hawkeye15
12-18-2018, 11:40 AM
I didn't demand he do anything. You said Kyrie wasn't missed when he sat. Clev getting there doors blown off without him suggest otherwise. I am more then willing to admit that LeBron is great but shot 30 something % and got smoked when he faced GS with a bad injury riddled roaster. Its wasn't his fault they lost. His team was out gunned and needed Kyrie because that guy makes a difference. You can't help but talk out both sides of your mouth when it comes to these two. Just face it, they are both really good and needed each other

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZ8yCJgsF_4

god Irving's finals gets him so overrated its criminal. You expect LeBron to churn out wins and great numbers when he has Mosgov as his 2nd biggest contributor. The mere fact they won 2 games that series is astounding.

Face it-every chip team needs a guy or two to overperform. That is what Irving did. It's what Iggy did. It's what Kawhi did. It's what Artest did. It's what Horry did. It's what Jason Terry did. List goes on, and on.

Dude you hate LeBron. It's fine. But you are blind as **** when it comes to his greatness. He could deliver a baby and lead a team of D Leaguers to a finals sweep all at the same time and you would point out something he did wrong. You are the reason I am a LeBron fan.

Irving is a nice player dude. THE most overrated player in the game.

ewing
12-18-2018, 01:01 PM
god Irving's finals gets him so overrated its criminal. You expect LeBron to churn out wins and great numbers when he has Mosgov as his 2nd biggest contributor. The mere fact they won 2 games that series is astounding.

Face it-every chip team needs a guy or two to overperform. That is what Irving did. It's what Iggy did. It's what Kawhi did. It's what Artest did. It's what Horry did. It's what Jason Terry did. List goes on, and on.

Dude you hate LeBron. It's fine. But you are blind as **** when it comes to his greatness. He could deliver a baby and lead a team of D Leaguers to a finals sweep all at the same time and you would point out something he did wrong. You are the reason I am a LeBron fan.

Irving is a nice player dude. THE most overrated player in the game.


Me: LeBron is the second best player of all time but a good bit below MJ and someone could make the case others (ex. Larry Bird) were as good at peak

You: Irving doesn't make a difference (i'm pretty sure in the past you've said he wasn't better then Rubio and George Hill)

Sorry I'm not the hater. Btw I think LeBron was nothing short of brilliant in the post season his whole second act in Clev. He also needed Kyrie Irving

ZH721
12-18-2018, 02:33 PM
Me: LeBron is the second best player of all time but a good bit below MJ and someone could make the case others (ex. Larry Bird) were as good at peak

You: Irving doesn't make a difference (i'm pretty sure in the past you've said he wasn't better then Rubio and George Hill)

Sorry I'm not the hater. Btw I think LeBron was nothing short of brilliant in the post season his whole second act in Clev. He also needed Kyrie Irving

That guy has no credibility in relation to Irving. Not worth it.

Vinylman
12-18-2018, 03:39 PM
it is so funny to watch fanboys who don't understand the game... the arguments are just ridiculous...


Lets see... AI in todays game where the 3 4 5 spread the floor by standing in both corners and out top...


yeah... he wouldn't destroy the game with a wide open lane...


quit wasting your time Hawkeye... its like talking to children

ewing
12-18-2018, 03:52 PM
^^^ best at playing dumb

Vinylman
12-18-2018, 04:40 PM
^^^ best at playing dumb

^^^ best at providing zero content...

Vee-Rex
12-18-2018, 06:14 PM
Both Ewing and Hawkeye are two sides of the same coin. I'd pay money for Ewing to get a LeBron tattoo and Hawkeye to get a Kyrie tattoo.

ewing
12-18-2018, 11:53 PM
Both Ewing and Hawkeye are two sides of the same coin. I'd pay money for Ewing to get a LeBron tattoo and Hawkeye to get a Kyrie tattoo.

I rarely say anything outlandish about LeBron. IMO at his peak he is on the second shelf with a maybe 4 other guys below MJ and bc of how long he has been at that level he is the second greatest player of all time. I even think jump shooting LeBron has made his case as number 2 unquestionable. doesnít mean he got smoked by the Spurs bc D Wade and Chris Bosh sucked, or Kyrie is George Hill. How come Bird fans donít constantly tell you about how Parish was slow as dirt or DJ was fat. Timmyís fans donít whine about Parkerís lack of range or size on D. Itís not my fault this guys fans are babies


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Hawkeye15
12-19-2018, 11:02 AM
Both Ewing and Hawkeye are two sides of the same coin. I'd pay money for Ewing to get a LeBron tattoo and Hawkeye to get a Kyrie tattoo.

If I could park Irving on the bench for 82 games and use him with 5 mins to go in crunch time come playoffs, I would love him. Otherwise, no my cup of tea..

In 20 years, nobody will care about Irving anyways, which is why all of this is stupid. LeBron? Yeah, he will be remembered.

Just funny to me that Larry Bird is brought up as his peer. Nope, that was over 5 years ago. His peers include Michael Jordan, and Kareem Abdul Jabbar. If you feel dangerous toss Wilt in there. But that is as long as the list gets...

MarcCrawford
12-19-2018, 11:10 AM
I know itís hard to comprehend but this is a Celtics thread not a Lebron thread

ewing
12-19-2018, 11:12 AM
I know itís hard to comprehend but this is a Celtics thread not a Lebron thread

Sorry wrong post

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Hawkeye15
12-19-2018, 11:48 AM
I know itís hard to comprehend but this is a Celtics thread not a Lebron thread

every thread on this forum turns into a LeBron thread. Happens when the 2nd best player ever is still playing :)

ZH721
12-19-2018, 02:44 PM
If I could park Irving on the bench for 82 games and use him with 5 mins to go in crunch time come playoffs, I would love him. Otherwise, no my cup of tea..

In 20 years, nobody will care about Irving anyways, which is why all of this is stupid. LeBron? Yeah, he will be remembered.

Just funny to me that Larry Bird is brought up as his peer. Nope, that was over 5 years ago. His peers include Michael Jordan, and Kareem Abdul Jabbar. If you feel dangerous toss Wilt in there. But that is as long as the list gets...

And thatís why you have no credibility in relation to him.

valade16
12-19-2018, 03:08 PM
I rarely say anything outlandish about LeBron. IMO at his peak he is on the second shelf with a maybe 4 other guys below MJ and bc of how long he has been at that level he is the second greatest player of all time. I even think jump shooting LeBron has made his case as number 2 unquestionable. doesnít mean he got smoked by the Spurs bc D Wade and Chris Bosh sucked, or Kyrie is George Hill. How come Bird fans donít constantly tell you about how Parish was slow as dirt or DJ was fat. Timmyís fans donít whine about Parkerís lack of range or size on D. Itís not my fault this guys fans are babies

Because nobody gives Bird or Duncan crap for losing a Finals series. Seriously, when was the last time someone actually cared that Bird or Duncan lost in the Finals (or even ECFs)? For Top 10 players, LeBron seems to be the only one people care about the Finals losses.

When was the last time somebody talked about Magic or Kareem's 4 Finals losses?

The only time Finals losses ever come up in terms of Legacy is LeBron. It's actually kind of weird.

ewing
12-19-2018, 03:25 PM
Because nobody gives Bird or Duncan crap for losing a Finals series. Seriously, when was the last time someone actually cared that Bird or Duncan lost in the Finals (or even ECFs)? For Top 10 players, LeBron seems to be the only one people care about the Finals losses.

When was the last time somebody talked about Magic or Kareem's 4 Finals losses?

The only time Finals losses ever come up in terms of Legacy is LeBron. It's actually kind of weird.

Iím calling BS. No blames LeBron for losing to GS when love and Kryie were hurt. No one blames him for last year either. His teams were out gunned. He didnít have a chance. Itís a poor me narrative that is limited to LeBron and those attracted to people like him. The supporting players who played with the other greats are generally overrated. With LeBron itís the opposite


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valade16
12-19-2018, 03:32 PM
Iím calling BS. No blames LeBron for losing to GS when love and Kryie were hurt. No one blames him for last year either. His teams were out gunned. He didnít have a chance. Itís a poor me narrative that is limited to LeBron and those attracted to people like him. The supporting players who played with the other greats are generally overrated. With LeBron itís the opposite

Mention LeBron as the GOAT or a Top 3 player and I guarantee you (I'd be willing to put money on this) one of the first things you will hear is "but he's 3-5 in the finals though"

I have never not once heard someone go "Magic is not Top 5 because he lost 4 Finals".

You have some validity in saying there is a poor me narrative around LeBron, but you have incorrectly subscribed the nexus of that narrative. Nobody would be using a poor me narrative for LeBron if there weren't those who reflexively mention how often he's lost in the Finals.

Or put another way, LeBron-fanboys would LOVE if any debates about LeBron couldn't use his Finals loss record and the poor me narrative of his teammates, while LeBron-haters would not. Because their only real weapon is his Finals losses.

ewing
12-19-2018, 03:43 PM
Mention LeBron as the GOAT or a Top 3 player and I guarantee you (I'd be willing to put money on this) one of the first things you will hear is "but he's 3-5 in the finals though"

I have never not once heard someone go "Magic is not Top 5 because he lost 4 Finals".

You have some validity in saying there is a poor me narrative around LeBron, but you have incorrectly subscribed the nexus of that narrative. Nobody would be using a poor me narrative for LeBron if there weren't those who reflexively mention how often he's lost in the Finals.

Or put another way, LeBron-fanboys would LOVE if any debates about LeBron couldn't use his Finals loss record and the poor me narrative of his teammates, while LeBron-haters would not. Because their only real weapon is his Finals losses.

No one says LeBron isnít top 3. I even said he was number 2 I just put out the opinion that other players had comparable peaks and look what happened. OMG Birds teams were stacked. D Wade had Parkinsonís by the time the Heat played the Spurs in the finals...... come on is anyone more underrated on this board then Irving? He is finally given credit for being an above average starting pg.


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ewing
12-19-2018, 03:45 PM
Chonz get in here and tell who is better AC Green or Kevin Love?


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Hawkeye15
12-19-2018, 03:48 PM
And thatís why you have no credibility in relation to him.

for what Irving is paid, you can so easily replace him it's scary. Improve actually.

But sure, if all we do is rank a player on some last minute heroics, Irving takes a big jump. Look, he has value in certain areas (like this), but overall he just doesn't move the needle as compared to his salary or reputation.

And really, I don't care if you think I have credibility. I mean, you think AI is a worse player, so I really don't know what to gauge your baseline as, since that is a ridiculous belief in itself.

Meh

Hawkeye15
12-19-2018, 03:51 PM
Iím calling BS. No blames LeBron for losing to GS when love and Kryie were hurt. No one blames him for last year either. His teams were out gunned. He didnít have a chance. Itís a poor me narrative that is limited to LeBron and those attracted to people like him. The supporting players who played with the other greats are generally overrated. With LeBron itís the opposite


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at times your joking gets mixed in as a real opinion. Because to me, no way you have LeBron top 3. Not with your posting history. Hell the way you lay it out he is just another typical HOF'er. Which is fine, everyone has their opinion, but you really never give him the proper credit.

Then below you claim Irving is underrated. Seriously?

Also, Love is better than the Virg

ewing
12-19-2018, 03:56 PM
at times your joking gets mixed in as a real opinion. Because to me, no way you have LeBron top 3. Not with your posting history. Hell the way you lay it out he is just another typical HOF'er. Which is fine, everyone has their opinion, but you really never give him the proper credit.

Then below you claim Irving is underrated. Seriously?

Also, Love is better than the Virg

Iíve said like 100 times Heís number two in this thread.


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valade16
12-19-2018, 04:08 PM
No one says LeBron isnít top 3. I even said he was number 2 I just put out the opinion that other players had comparable peaks and look what happened. OMG Birds teams were stacked. D Wade had Parkinsonís by the time the Heat played the Spurs in the finals...... come on is anyone more underrated on this board then Irving? He is finally given credit for being an above average starting pg.

Anymore, in the same way that nobody now seriously doubts evolution. They did for a long time, until the evidence became so overwhelming they looked ridiculous stating otherwise. That is what happened in the Bron debate.

Chronz
12-19-2018, 04:15 PM
it is so funny to watch fanboys who don't understand the game... the arguments are just ridiculous...


Lets see... AI in todays game where the 3 4 5 spread the floor by standing in both corners and out top...


yeah... he wouldn't destroy the game with a wide open lane...


quit wasting your time Hawkeye... its like talking to children

There's a reason ai numbers skyrocketed when he experienced a facsimile of today's rules and spacing despite being past his prime. I too hated ai, but I'll never stoop to the level where kyrie, of all players, is considered on his level. Kyrie has never led **** anywhere.

Chronz
12-19-2018, 04:17 PM
Because nobody gives Bird or Duncan crap for losing a Finals series. Seriously, when was the last time someone actually cared that Bird or Duncan lost in the Finals (or even ECFs)? For Top 10 players, LeBron seems to be the only one people care about the Finals losses.

When was the last time somebody talked about Magic or Kareem's 4 Finals losses?

The only time Finals losses ever come up in terms of Legacy is LeBron. It's actually kind of weird.
I care. I **** on bird for failing long before the finals despite the support

Chronz
12-19-2018, 04:19 PM
Chonz get in here and tell who is better AC Green or Kevin Love?


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AC green stored all his nut juice. He would've been there for lebron

Chronz
12-19-2018, 04:20 PM
Anymore, in the same way that nobody now seriously doubts evolution. They did for a long time, until the evidence became so overwhelming they looked ridiculous stating otherwise. That is what happened in the Bron debate.
Lmfao. You think the evidence is overwhelming?

valade16
12-19-2018, 04:26 PM
Lmfao. You think the evidence is overwhelming?

For LeBron, or for Evolution?

Jamiecballer
12-19-2018, 04:32 PM
If I could park Irving on the bench for 82 games and use him with 5 mins to go in crunch time come playoffs, I would love him. Otherwise, no my cup of tea..


Same

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Jamiecballer
12-19-2018, 04:34 PM
For LeBron, or for Evolution?Lol I assumed the same

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ewing
12-19-2018, 04:39 PM
Anymore, in the same way that nobody now seriously doubts evolution. They did for a long time, until the evidence became so overwhelming they looked ridiculous stating otherwise. That is what happened in the Bron debate.

What? He just lost in the NBA finals last year. If people are going to say he isnít top 3 or whatever bc if his finals record, they still can. They donít bc he has been great for a long time. Doesnít stop his fans from acting like total babies if you donít think he is as good as MJ and resort to trashing his teammates bc they follow his lead

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valade16
12-19-2018, 04:49 PM
What? He just lost in the NBA finals last year. If people are going to say he isnít top 3 or whatever bc if his finals record, they still can. They donít bc he has been great for a long time. Doesnít stop his fans from acting like total babies if you donít think he is as good as MJ and resort to trashing his teammates bc they follow his lead

The finals record argument (or any other) starts to lose its luster compared to the total picture, which is why generally nobody now says he's outside the Top 3. But the people who think he's 3rd or lower now were the same people who said he wasn't as good as Kobe, or wasn't the best in the league, or wasn't Top 10, etc. Essentially, it's the same group of people taking the same anti-LeBron stance, the stance just has to move slightly every time once it becomes obvious their original stance was wrong, but no matter what specifically their argument at any given time, it's all the same sentiment: that LeBron isn't as good as people think.

I agree, his fanboys are obnoxious. But then again, so are MJ's, or Kobe's. Anyone who is that far gone is going to be absurd. LeBron's teammates have not been as bad as many claim, and even if he's #2 all-time, doesn't mean his career isn't without its flaws.

Vinylman
12-19-2018, 05:00 PM
There's a reason ai numbers skyrocketed when he experienced a facsimile of today's rules and spacing despite being past his prime. I too hated ai, but I'll never stoop to the level where kyrie, of all players, is considered on his level. Kyrie has never led **** anywhere.

yep... people don't understand how easy the game is now for PG's and wings who can put the ball on the floor. I wish they would let the 3pt line run out and force these teams to actually get creative rather than having two dickheads stand in opposite corners... its predictable as ****

Chronz
12-19-2018, 05:10 PM
Lol I assumed the same

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Lololol

Hawkeye15
12-19-2018, 05:14 PM
There's a reason ai numbers skyrocketed when he experienced a facsimile of today's rules and spacing despite being past his prime. I too hated ai, but I'll never stoop to the level where kyrie, of all players, is considered on his level. Kyrie has never led **** anywhere.

I just don't get how this is overlooked. Anytime he has been asked to carry anything he fails. The dude got ****ing hot for one finals series, and everyone rides his dick over it. My god. The most overrated player in the game today. No question.

ewing
12-19-2018, 05:34 PM
The finals record argument (or any other) starts to lose its luster compared to the total picture, which is why generally nobody now says he's outside the Top 3. But the people who think he's 3rd or lower now were the same people who said he wasn't as good as Kobe, or wasn't the best in the league, or wasn't Top 10, etc. Essentially, it's the same group of people taking the same anti-LeBron stance, the stance just has to move slightly every time once it becomes obvious their original stance was wrong, but no matter what specifically their argument at any given time, it's all the same sentiment: that LeBron isn't as good as people think.

I agree, his fanboys are obnoxious. But then again, so are MJ's, or Kobe's. Anyone who is that far gone is going to be absurd. LeBron's teammates have not been as bad as many claim, and even if he's #2 all-time, doesn't mean his career isn't without its flaws.

LeBron the only one who has consistently trashed his teammates. He is the only one whose fans do it consistently. Like I said support players for other greats are generally overrated. He is a great player but he is also a sissy *****. His fans follow his lead. Timmy fans are classy and Kobeís fans fanatical- same deal

Hawkeye15
12-19-2018, 05:37 PM
LeBron the only one who has consistently trashed his teammates. He is the only one whose fans do it consistently. Like I said support players for other greats are generally overrated. He is a great player but he is also a sissy *****. His fans follow his lead. Timmy fans are classy and Kobeís fans fanatical, Magicís classy, Birds the same.

I will say, LeBron always comes across as "poor me" when he speaks. It's gotten better, but he should have just kept his mouth shut over the years. He can't help himself.

ewing
12-19-2018, 05:39 PM
I just don't get how this is overlooked. Anytime he has been asked to carry anything he fails. The dude got ****ing hot for one finals series, and everyone rides his dick over it. My god. The most overrated player in the game today. No question.

Should he have won a title in year one, two, or three?


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ewing
12-19-2018, 05:44 PM
I will say, LeBron always comes across as "poor me" when he speaks. It's gotten better, but he should have just kept his mouth shut over the years. He can't help himself.

thatís why I have to set his followers straight


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Vee-Rex
12-19-2018, 11:48 PM
Hawkeye,

You claim Kyrie is a top 25-30'ish player in the league. These are YOUR words - yet you ALSO claim you'd let him rot on the bench for 82 games and plug him in the final 5 minutes of a playoffs game, and that you can easily improve the team without him and he's not worth his salary.

Come on, bruh

Maybe ewing got you exaggerating out of your *** but that just doesn't make sense to me.

Jamiecballer
12-20-2018, 12:32 AM
Hawkeye,

You claim Kyrie is a top 25-30'ish player in the league. These are YOUR words - yet you ALSO claim you'd let him rot on the bench for 82 games and plug him in the final 5 minutes of a playoffs game, and that you can easily improve the team without him and he's not worth his salary.

Come on, bruh

Maybe ewing got you exaggerating out of your *** but that just doesn't make sense to me.I dont know, I get it. I would have said the same thing about guys like Melo and Iverson, DeRozan. There is a little bit of "you cant deny the stats but you can certainly debate the value" in there.

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ZH721
12-20-2018, 12:35 AM
for what Irving is paid, you can so easily replace him it's scary. Improve actually.

But sure, if all we do is rank a player on some last minute heroics, Irving takes a big jump. Look, he has value in certain areas (like this), but overall he just doesn't move the needle as compared to his salary or reputation.

And really, I don't care if you think I have credibility. I mean, you think AI is a worse player, so I really don't know what to gauge your baseline as, since that is a ridiculous belief in itself.

Meh

Stats say youíre a ****ing *******. I donít need my opinion or anything, the stats show how ****ing ridiculous you are.

Easily replace him? Get the **** out. How do you expect to have any credibility with posts like this?

ZH721
12-20-2018, 12:38 AM
I dont know, I get it. I would have said the same thing about guys like Melo and Iverson, DeRozan. There is a little bit of "you cant deny the stats but you can certainly debate the value" in there.

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Irving is more efficient than all of them. Itís amazing how he always gets thrown in with inefficient chuckers like AI and Melo who never won anything due to their inefficient chucking.

netherfire
12-20-2018, 01:01 AM
I think the Celtics will find their stride. Their core players are still young and growing together.

Vee-Rex
12-20-2018, 01:02 AM
I dont know, I get it. I would have said the same thing about guys like Melo and Iverson, DeRozan. There is a little bit of "you cant deny the stats but you can certainly debate the value" in there.

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I mean... stats are just numbers. We tend to fall back on stats when debating value.

How can a top 30 player be someone you'd rather park on the bench for an entire season? How can this same top 30 player be easily replaceable and teams improve without him? It's essentially an oxymoron which is why I'm assuming he's wildly exaggerating.

ewing
12-20-2018, 07:58 AM
I mean... stats are just numbers. We tend to fall back on stats when debating value.

How can a top 30 player be someone you'd rather park on the bench for an entire season? How can this same top 30 player be easily replaceable and teams improve without him? It's essentially an oxymoron which is why I'm assuming he's wildly exaggerating.

He played with LeBron and LeBron clearly needed him so he is terrible. Also ďplay groundĒ basketball.


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TheDish87
12-20-2018, 10:34 AM
Irving is more efficient than all of them. Itís amazing how he always gets thrown in with inefficient chuckers like AI and Melo who never won anything due to their inefficient chucking.

dump lump AI in with Melo, keep that ******** out of here

IKnowHoops
12-20-2018, 11:34 AM
Ugh.

Since Irving came to the C's he's played some D. I would rate him maybe 10/30 when he's amped and 20/30 when he is not. He can absolutely get shots off close to the bucket (and not get blocked) with bigs nearby in a way i just can't believe.

AI was a volume scorer, Irving shoots better. He passes better and defends better (not the steals, the actual work of proper position and getting low).

He doesn't appear to be as divisive as AI, nor is he a convicted criminal.

Passes better? By what measure? AI averaged 31/8 in his Prime, when has Kyrie come close to getting 8 asst?

IKnowHoops
12-20-2018, 11:58 AM
What? He just lost in the NBA finals last year. If people are going to say he isnít top 3 or whatever bc if his finals record, they still can. They donít bc he has been great for a long time. Doesnít stop his fans from acting like total babies if you donít think he is as good as MJ and resort to trashing his teammates bc they follow his lead

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No.

I am as big an LBJ fan as there is. I do happen to have him as GOAT. Got zero problem with those taking MJ as GOAT. Just donít tell me Bird has an argument because he doesnít. Or Kobe...Kareem sure, Even Shaq sure, you can have those guys over Bron and I wonít even argue because I can see arguments there. Even Wilt 50/25 is disgusting. You say Bird and I laugh at you. So now you know how to approach Bron lovers.

Vinylman
12-20-2018, 12:23 PM
Passes better? By what measure? AI averaged 31/8 in his Prime, when has Kyrie come close to getting 8 asst?

And AI didn't have the luxury of kicking it to two drone dickheads in opposite corners.

Hawkeye15
12-20-2018, 12:27 PM
Hawkeye,

You claim Kyrie is a top 25-30'ish player in the league. These are YOUR words - yet you ALSO claim you'd let him rot on the bench for 82 games and plug him in the final 5 minutes of a playoffs game, and that you can easily improve the team without him and he's not worth his salary.

Come on, bruh

Maybe ewing got you exaggerating out of your *** but that just doesn't make sense to me.

I live with him being ranked there, and his scoring ability has value in today's NBA. To me, it's also not worth arguing over guys who fall below elite and into all star level convo. 25-30, 35-40, whatever. Same difference.

He doesn't suck. I get worked up over him because I despise his style, effort consistently, and I just don't think he matters much unless all conditions are perfect. DeRozan is another one. Top 40? Sure. Player I want? Meh, not really.

Hawkeye15
12-20-2018, 12:29 PM
Stats say youíre a ****ing *******. I donít need my opinion or anything, the stats show how ****ing ridiculous you are.

Easily replace him? Get the **** out. How do you expect to have any credibility with posts like this?

which stats? Value stats (box score plus/minus, VORP, RPM, On/Off) don't value him like PER, or winshares. And we have seen his teams just win without him. We have also never seen him carry anything to anywhere.

Since he entered the league, his best VORP is 91st in that time period. His best BPM is 71st (2nd highest is 280th). RPM doesn't like him.

He is a volume scorer, so PER will look nice. His overall value stats though, just look pedestrian.

He had some years with LeBron where the Cavs were actually statistically better without him. Now, stats are only numbers without context, but great players never kick out numbers that show they don't really matter all that much. Irving does..

Hawkeye15
12-20-2018, 12:30 PM
Irving is more efficient than all of them. Itís amazing how he always gets thrown in with inefficient chuckers like AI and Melo who never won anything due to their inefficient chucking.

they both won a lot more as their teams top player than Irving ever has.

Hawkeye15
12-20-2018, 12:32 PM
And AI didn't have the luxury of kicking it to two drone dickheads in opposite corners.

he wouldn't have needed to. Couldn't touch him today, and the paint is wide open. I guess eventually teams would have caved in and had to send rim help, but he would live at the rim/line today.

Vinylman
12-20-2018, 12:37 PM
he wouldn't have needed to. Couldn't touch him today, and the paint is wide open. I guess eventually teams would have caved in and had to send rim help, but he would live at the rim/line today.

of course... I am just saying he would have had the OPTION to kick it out

Hawkeye15
12-20-2018, 12:41 PM
of course... I am just saying he would have had the OPTION to kick it out

right, and in today's NBA, Philly would have given him outlet shooters, so his Offrtg would be way higher.

valade16
12-20-2018, 01:12 PM
Imagine if the roles were switched and Bron had left Cleveland but Irving stayed. How does anyone think Irving with Love and Smith and Thompson would have done?

ewing
12-20-2018, 01:14 PM
Imagine if the roles were switched and Bron had left Cleveland but Irving stayed. How does anyone think Irving with Love and Smith and Thompson would have done?

Poorly. LeBron is better then Kyrie Irving.

valade16
12-20-2018, 01:31 PM
Poorly. LeBron is better then Kyrie Irving.

Poorly as in miss the playoffs? Because you've been spending this whole time talking about how LeBron's teammates are not that bad compared to what LeBron fans think and yet you're saying that the team he led to the Finals multiple times would perform poorly without him lol.

ewing
12-20-2018, 01:37 PM
Poorly as in miss the playoffs? Because you've been spending this whole time talking about how LeBron's teammates are not that bad compared to what LeBron fans think and yet you're saying that the team he led to the Finals multiple times would perform poorly without him lol.

Both those things are true.

valade16
12-20-2018, 01:41 PM
Both those things are true.

So when you say LeBron fans underrate his teammates you mean that they are saying they're terrible when in reality they're just bad lol?

ewing
12-20-2018, 01:51 PM
So when you say LeBron fans underrate his teammates you mean that they are saying they're terrible when in reality they're just bad lol?

You cant pick 5 randomly good players and make a good team. LeBron is a lot better then Irving and they made the finals last year by beating a wrecked EC. Credit goes to Bron for getting it done but Al Hartford was the best player on the team they beat in a 7 game ECFs (Jason Tatum was second).

valade16
12-20-2018, 01:58 PM
You cant pick 5 randomly good players and make a good team. LeBron is a lot better then Irving and they made the finals last year by beating a wrecked EC. Credit goes to Bron for getting it done but Al Hartford was the best player on the team they beat in a 7 game ECFs (Jason Tatum was second).

First, it wouldn't be 5 random guys would it? It'd be guys who have been teammates for many years and an entire team minus a single player. But that same argument against how weak his competition was also should work in Irving's Cleveland led team shouldn't it? The East isn't that strong, so what does it say that you still don't think they'd do well against a weak conference?

Also, in your first sentence, are you saying the problem was that LeBron fans were saying the players were not good as opposed to the team wasn't very good. Would you then agree with the statement that LeBron didn't have a very good team around him?

ewing
12-20-2018, 02:12 PM
First, it wouldn't be 5 random guys would it? It'd be guys who have been teammates for many years and an entire team minus a single player. But that same argument against how weak his competition was also should work in Irving's Cleveland led team shouldn't it? The East isn't that strong, so what does it say that you still don't think they'd do well against a weak conference?

Also, in your first sentence, are you saying the problem was that LeBron fans were saying the players were not good as opposed to the team wasn't very good. Would you then agree with the statement that LeBron didn't have a very good team around him?

If you want to dream up situations to try and support a narrative go for it. I'm not going to indulge you, sorry. You know well the kind of treatment LeBron's teammates have gotten (Love, Bosh, Wade, and Irving are the obvious ones but the true support player got it even worse). You also know you can't take a guy a team was build around away from it and just expect them to adapt.

valade16
12-20-2018, 02:32 PM
If you want to dream up situations to try and support a narrative go for it. I'm not going to indulge you, sorry. You know well the kind of treatment LeBron's teammates have gotten (Love, Bosh, Wade, and Irving are the obvious ones but the true support player got it even worse). You also know you can't take a guy a team was build around away from it and just expect them to adapt.

Dream up a situation? LOL. You mean the exact teammates your saying are unfairly criticized for playing with LeBron if they didn't play with him? I really had to dig down deep on that one lol.

I think your hate for LeBron is starting to become more and more transparent. You are simultaneously arguing that his teammates are not bad and unfairly criticized but also saying that his team would suck without him. It's not my fault you have been unable to explain or reconcile those two opposing opinions lol.

ewing
12-20-2018, 02:41 PM
Dream up a situation? LOL. You mean the exact teammates your saying are unfairly criticized for playing with LeBron if they didn't play with him? I really had to dig down deep on that one lol.

I think your hate for LeBron is starting to become more and more transparent. You are simultaneously arguing that his teammates are not bad and unfairly criticized but also saying that his team would suck without him. It's not my fault you have been unable to explain or reconcile those two opposing opinions lol.

If you took Pat Ewing off the 93 Knicks would they have been a good basketball team? No. Do I think John Starks or Anthony Mason were bad basketball players? No. Do I blame for them for us blowing a 2-0 lead against the Bulls to protect my favorite player? No. There are no opposing opinions. Stop being lawyery


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valade16
12-20-2018, 02:55 PM
If you took Pat Ewing off the 93 Knicks would they have been a good basketball team? No. Do I think John Starks or Anthony Mason were bad basketball players? No. Do I blame for them for us blowing a 2-0 lead against the Bulls to protect my favorite player? No. There are no opposing opinions. Stop being lawyery

I'd bet dollars to donuts if we started talking about the quality of the supporting cast around star players (or why Ewing never won a ring) you would say that Patrick Ewing had among the least talented supporting casts of any top level player. So when you say not bad it's a "not bad but still not good compared to his peers". Am I correct or not?

ewing
12-20-2018, 03:05 PM
I'd bet dollars to donuts if we started talking about the quality of the supporting cast around star players (or why Ewing never won a ring) you would say that Patrick Ewing had among the least talented supporting casts of any top level player. So when you say not bad it's a "not bad but still not good compared to his peers". Am I correct or not?

he had a team that was good enough but came up short. If you wanted to improve their chances you would have needed to add scoring without upsetting that chemistry. They tried to add scoring with Charles Smith and Ro Blackmen but they were not good fits. They were built around his personality and to his strengths however he wasnít a natural born scorer and with better secondary options that allowed him his space and didnít compromise there D they would have been better. I might say things like Mitch Richmond would have been a great addition but I wouldnít call John Starks a Marty Collins or Anthony Mason a Kurt Rambus or trash. There is a difference but keep moving the ďgoal postsĒ


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MILLERHIGHLIFE
12-20-2018, 03:07 PM
90's Knicks were kinda boring team to watch. Sorry Knicks fans. But beyond Ewing you had what Oakley,Mason,Starks and what else? I seen a lot of them 90's games back on NBC back in the day.

MILLERHIGHLIFE
12-20-2018, 03:11 PM
But then again my Bucks weren't pretty back then either. hahahaha Eric Murdock,Lee Mayberry, Todd Day and Johnny Newman and Ricky Pierce before we got Vin Baker.

Hawkeye15
12-20-2018, 03:14 PM
he had a team that was good enough but came up short. If you wanted to improve their chances you would have needed to add scoring without upsetting that chemistry. They tried to add scoring with Charles Smith and Ro Blackmen but they were not good fits. They were built around his personality and to his strengths however he wasnít a natural born scorer and with better secondary options that allowed him his space and didnít compromise there D they would have been better. I might say things like Mitch Richmond would have been a great addition but I wouldnít call John Starks a Marty Collins or Anthony Mason a Kurt Rambus type. There is a difference


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just like LeBron, NY decided to build a certain roster type around a certain star player. Only Ewing is a much lesser player than LeBron overall, and has only so much influence being a trench post player who can't run the offense. The Knicks had a lot of "good" NBA players, but nothing at an all star level surrounding Ewing. In fact, their roster reminds me more of AI's, in that they seeked out a type of player to put alongside Ewing. Tough, physical, bruising, etc.

Not every good to great team is the Warriors who can lose a HOF player and not skip a beat. Imagine Dream off those championship Rox teams. I have brought it up plenty, even to begin the LeBron thread. Since around 07-08', LeBron has been his entire team, surrounded by guys with very specific roles. When you remove the engine from a car, it won't run. Same **** here.

Hawkeye15
12-20-2018, 03:15 PM
90's Knicks were kinda boring team to watch. Sorry Knicks fans. But beyond Ewing you had what Oakley,Mason,Starks and what else? I seen a lot of them 90's games back on NBC back in the day.

yep. Heat/NYK were unwatchable. It's why I stopped watching my Wolves last year, it straight up reminded me of 1993 watching Butler pound the air out of the ball and the team scratch and claw each possession. The Knicks and their peers were the reason for rule changes in fact. The NBA was in the midst of monster growth with MJ in full swing, yet it was getting more boring by the minute with the thug ball era.

ewing
12-20-2018, 03:20 PM
just like LeBron, NY decided to build a certain roster type around a certain star player. Only Ewing is a much lesser player than LeBron overall, and has only so much influence being a trench post player who can't run the offense. The Knicks had a lot of "good" NBA players, but nothing at an all star level surrounding Ewing. In fact, their roster reminds me more of AI's, in that they seeked out a type of player to put alongside Ewing. Tough, physical, bruising, etc.

Not every good to great team is the Warriors who can lose a HOF player and not skip a beat. Imagine Dream off those championship Rox teams. I have brought it up plenty, even to begin the LeBron thread. Since around 07-08', LeBron has been his entire team, surrounded by guys with very specific roles. When you remove the engine from a car, it won't run. Same **** here.

We have found some agreement [emoji106][emoji106]


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Hawkeye15
12-20-2018, 03:24 PM
We have found some agreement [emoji106][emoji106]


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I think what most hate about today's NBA, is the players are basically the GM's. It's infuriating knowing your favorite player had so little control back in the day, where as guys now run the ****ing show.

ewing
12-20-2018, 03:48 PM
But then again my Bucks weren't pretty back then either. hahahaha Eric Murdock,Lee Mayberry, Todd Day and Johnny Newman and Ricky Pierce before we got Vin Baker.

Ricky Pierce lead the NBA in points per min like every year. He was electric! Of course I have a soft spot J New as well and Todd Day and Lee Mayberry brought 40 mins of hell!

Hawkeye15
12-20-2018, 03:56 PM
Ricky Pierce lead the NBA in points per min like every year. He was electric! Of course I have a soft spot J New as well and Todd Day and Lee Mayberry brought 40 mins of hell!

wasn't it Pierce that made 6th man of the year relevant?

valade16
12-20-2018, 04:07 PM
he had a team that was good enough but came up short. If you wanted to improve their chances you would have needed to add scoring without upsetting that chemistry. They tried to add scoring with Charles Smith and Ro Blackmen but they were not good fits. They were built around his personality and to his strengths however he wasnít a natural born scorer and with better secondary options that allowed him his space and didnít compromise there D they would have been better. I might say things like Mitch Richmond would have been a great addition but I wouldnít call John Starks a Marty Collins or Anthony Mason a Kurt Rambus or trash. There is a difference but keep moving the ďgoal postsĒ

Moving the goal posts like saying LeBron's teams were good but also they are not good without LeBron? lol

valade16
12-20-2018, 04:10 PM
just like LeBron, NY decided to build a certain roster type around a certain star player. Only Ewing is a much lesser player than LeBron overall, and has only so much influence being a trench post player who can't run the offense. The Knicks had a lot of "good" NBA players, but nothing at an all star level surrounding Ewing. In fact, their roster reminds me more of AI's, in that they seeked out a type of player to put alongside Ewing. Tough, physical, bruising, etc.

Not every good to great team is the Warriors who can lose a HOF player and not skip a beat. Imagine Dream off those championship Rox teams. I have brought it up plenty, even to begin the LeBron thread. Since around 07-08', LeBron has been his entire team, surrounded by guys with very specific roles. When you remove the engine from a car, it won't run. Same **** here.

I get what you're saying and I also see that Ewing agrees, except people are saying Kyrie is a version of an engine (certainly a lesser one than Bron). In order to agree with your analogy there must be an admission that Kyrie is simply a role player and perhaps not as good as claimed, but that doesn't seem to be the argument.

The reasoning for why he couldn't win before LeBron with the Cavs was he was young and the roster wasn't good, but shouldn't the actual argument be because he can't lead a team? I don't think that's the argument people agree with, in fact they are arguing the opposite with Boston.

Hawkeye15
12-20-2018, 04:10 PM
Moving the goal posts like saying LeBron's teams were good but also they are not good without LeBron? lol

I get it, I'll spare you from having to try and talk out of both sides of your mouth some more. But I will remember this the next time you ever try to say that Ewing didn't have as much help as other superstars.

Dream has just as little of help as Ewing, but he won 2 chips. Dirk's 2011 team didn't have any other stars, yet he won. The 03' Spurs didn't really have another star, yet Duncan won.

Not to say Ewing wasn't great, but he is maybe on KG's level, if that sounds fair?

valade16
12-20-2018, 04:12 PM
Dream has just as little of help as Ewing, but he won 2 chips. Dirk's 2011 team didn't have any other stars, yet he won. The 03' Spurs didn't really have another star, yet Duncan won.

Not to say Ewing wasn't great, but he is maybe on KG's level, if that sounds fair?

Look at my previous post. Nobody is saying Ewing, or Dirk, or Hakeem, or Duncan in '03 had another top 25 ish player in the league who can create, score, and at some points carry a team as they are alleging of Kyrie.

I don't see how you can reconcile saying it's unfair to call LeBron's team a bad one or that LeBron fans underrate Kyrie and then point to Charlie Ward, Kenny Smith, rookie Tony Parker and old Jason Kidd as a comparison for Kyrie. lol

Hawkeye15
12-20-2018, 04:14 PM
I get what you're saying and I also see that Ewing agrees, except people are saying Kyrie is a version of an engine (certainly a lesser one than Bron). In order to agree with your analogy there must be an admission that Kyrie is simply a role player and perhaps not as good as claimed, but that doesn't seem to be the argument.

The reasoning for why he couldn't win before LeBron with the Cavs was he was young and the roster wasn't good, but shouldn't the actual argument be because he can't lead a team? I don't think that's the argument people agree with, in fact they are arguing the opposite with Boston.

A role player doesn't mean you are Kyle Korver. Hell Horace Grant, Dennis Rodman, Draymond Green, are all role players.

Fact is, Irving really isn't that good. He can be, but he isn't consistently, and he isn't the primary option on a great team. It would take a Pistons like roster to get it done, one that has excellent players around the horn, and he squeaks by as their best player simply be statistical definition.

I get it, I am VERY hard on Irving. I underrated him probably, but to me, I am not paying a Kyrie Irving max dollars. Ever. He hasn't proven a god damn thing, outside that he can get hot at crucial times. But I refuse to evaluate a player on 2% of his playing time. And he is difficult to gauge, because he is the anti-Rubio. Someone who puts up great individual numbers/advanced stats, but then you go look at the on/off splits, the value stats (VORP, RMP, BPM, etc), and they paint a totally different picture (where as Rubio's individual numbers look like crap yet his teams always play way better with him). They show what my eyes are seeing is true. He just doesn't move the needle enough to justify all the hoopla over him.

valade16
12-20-2018, 04:14 PM
My offer also stands, if we ranked or listed all Finals teams, where would Ewing's Knicks, Hakeem's Rockets, or Dirk's Mavs rank? If you're saying LeBron fans underrate his support but then compare his teams to teams that are widely considered to be among the worst supporting casts for Finals teams, you're not making a very strong point IMO

Hawkeye15
12-20-2018, 04:16 PM
Look at my previous post. Nobody is saying Ewing, or Dirk, or Hakeem, or Duncan in '03 had another top 25 ish player in the league who can create, score, and at some points carry a team as they are alleging of Kyrie.

I don't see how you can reconcile saying it's unfair to call LeBron's team a bad one or that LeBron fans underrate Kyrie and then point to Charlie Ward, Kenny Smith, rookie Tony Parker and old Jason Kidd as a comparison for Kyrie. lol

I mean, it's a chat board, where people talk out of both sides of their mouth constantly. The fact Irving has so many supporters shows at it's root, basketball fans still love them guys that go get buckets, **** everything else...

valade16
12-20-2018, 04:16 PM
A role player doesn't mean you are Kyle Korver. Hell Horace Grant, Dennis Rodman, Draymond Green, are all role players.

Fact is, Irving really isn't that good. He can be, but he isn't consistently, and he isn't the primary option on a great team. It would take a Pistons like roster to get it done, one that has excellent players around the horn, and he squeaks by as their best player simply be statistical definition.

I get it, I am VERY hard on Irving. I underrated him probably, but to me, I am not paying a Kyrie Irving max dollars. Ever. He hasn't proven a god damn thing, outside that he can get hot at crucial times. But I refuse to evaluate a player on 2% of his playing time. And he is difficult to gauge, because he is the anti-Rubio. Someone who puts up great individual numbers/advanced stats, but then you go look at the on/off splits, the value stats (VORP, RMP, BPM, etc), and they paint a totally different picture (where as Rubio's individual numbers look like crap yet his teams always play way better with him). They show what my eyes are seeing is true. He just doesn't move the needle enough to justify all the hoopla over him.

I think that's where people are disagreeing.

I don't think he's great but I also don't think he's nearly as bad as you do.

He's in the upper half of starting PGs I think.

Hawkeye15
12-20-2018, 04:21 PM
I think that's where people are disagreeing.

I don't think he's great but I also don't think he's nearly as bad as you do.

He's in the upper half of starting PGs I think.

for sure he is.

valade16
12-20-2018, 04:22 PM
I mean, it's a chat board, where people talk out of both sides of their mouth constantly. The fact Irving has so many supporters shows at it's root, basketball fans still love them guys that go get buckets, **** everything else...

I guess I am technically both a LeBron fan and an Irving supporter because I fall in the middle of the debate on both.

Hawkeye15
12-20-2018, 04:26 PM
I guess I am technically both a LeBron fan and an Irving supporter because I fall in the middle of the debate on both.

well I need to calm the **** down when it comes to Irving.

ewing
12-20-2018, 04:31 PM
Moving the goal posts like saying LeBron's teams were good but also they are not good without LeBron? lol

His teammates were better then his fans give them credit for and his teams would have been bad without him. Those statements do not contradict one another. If you disagree fine. We could discuss that. if you find them contradictory fine but there is no point discussion it bc you are wrong based on language not opinion. Iím not going to indulge you anymore


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ewing
12-20-2018, 04:37 PM
I get what you're saying and I also see that Ewing agrees, except people are saying Kyrie is a version of an engine (certainly a lesser one than Bron). In order to agree with your analogy there must be an admission that Kyrie is simply a role player and perhaps not as good as claimed, but that doesn't seem to be the argument.

The reasoning for why he couldn't win before LeBron with the Cavs was he was young and the roster wasn't good, but shouldn't the actual argument be because he can't lead a team? I don't think that's the argument people agree with, in fact they are arguing the opposite with Boston.

Not all all stars are stand alone franchise players. Most of them arenít. Irving is very good but a lot of LeBron call him trash. There is clearly a level above him and if the team he on was built to complement a guy with a game unlike his they probably wonít do well. If that other guy is a lot better then him they wonít. do you get it?


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Vee-Rex
12-20-2018, 04:53 PM
I guess I am technically both a LeBron fan and an Irving supporter because I fall in the middle of the debate on both.

I'm both as well.

I can rave forever about LeBron (he's already my GOAT though I absolutely refuse to argue with people who have MJ as their GOAT because I felt that way for a very long time too. MJ deserves to be called GOAT).

However, I also witnessed most of LeBron's career. I've watched several hundreds of his games. I've watched most of Kyrie's career as well.

I have always felt Kyrie was judged muuuuuch too harshly his first few years in the league when he was asked to be the savior/hero and put up non-stop FGAs for those **** Cleveland teams. Then BAM, LeBron arrived and he had to conform his offense around LeBron. The team was molded to fit LeBron. The inept coaches who couldn't install a proper offense heavily staggered LeBron and Kyrie's minutes (leading to some harsher on/off stats for Kyrie than I believe was accurate) so much that I feel he has built a reputation for being an unimpactful player. The reputation is hard to shake, since now that he is in Boston and putting up the best impact stats of his career, people still hate him.

When it simply just isn't true. No, he's nowhere near the Hardens or Currys or CP3s, but that doesn't mean he's a zero on the floor or that teams are better without him. I mean he got a lot of minutes playing on the court while a (universally agreed) top 3 player in NBA history sat on the bench, and he had to do it with the team built around THAT dude's style.

I mean, I've slain countless dudes on this site arguing that the Cavs were better with MATTHEW DELLEVADOVA on the court instead of Kyrie, because they didn't watch enough games to understand context and why his impact stats were better for half a year. :laugh2:

Dude just never got a fair shake until now and oh well, doesn't seem to matter. But I'm beyond arguing with guys like Hawkeye and Chronz (as I'm sure they're beyond it with me) about it. Hawk and I found some mutual agreement on a general area we rank him. I respect their position but I'll still give 'em **** here and there about it. ;)

valade16
12-20-2018, 04:56 PM
His teammates were better then his fans give them credit for and his teams would have been bad without him. Those statements do not contradict one another. If you disagree fine. We could discuss that. if you find them contradictory fine but there is no point discussion it bc you are wrong based on language not opinion. Iím not going to indulge you anymore


Not all all stars are stand alone franchise players. Most of them arenít. Irving is very good but a lot of LeBron call him trash. There is clearly a level above him and if the team he on was built to complement a guy with a game unlike his they probably wonít do well. If that other guy is a lot better then him they wonít. do you get it?

I get it, I still think you're talking out of both sides of your mouth. You are acting like Cleveland has players who are Martian, and that there is no way that team could possibly function in a positive manner without LeBron. Kyrie is really so one dimensional or so unlike LeBron that he would fail with that team? OK fine. Who could go to that team and experience success? Is there anyone on Kyrie's level who could that plays more like LeBron, or are the only players capable of having success with that roster the tier above Kyrie?

More over, it's a nice little defense you've built up. You can freely talk about how much better Cleveland and LeBron's teammates are than his fans think but you also can freely talk about how trash they'd be with literally anyone but LeBron.

It seems like people are incorrectly interchanging "built great around player X" and "is therefore a great supporting cast". AI's 76ers were built about as well around AI as it's possible, but I doubt anybody would say he flat out had a quality supporting cast. So is that the case here, or does LeBron simultaneously have a great supporting cast but they are only great because they are built around LeBron?