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Scoots
10-30-2018, 01:06 PM
Do teams in not-coastal cold weather cities still have to pay more for free agent players and settle for 2nd tier free agents?

Florida and Texas have tax and weather advantages and California and New York/Boston have high taxes and cost of living which may discourage some players but they don't counter the appeal of the size of the markets and the historical appeal.

So if we look at the remaining teams as if they were on a relatively even playing field, do the cold weather cities have a distinct disadvantage?

IndyRealist
10-30-2018, 01:14 PM
Yes.

WaDe03
10-30-2018, 01:15 PM
Yes. Cities like Milwaukee are screwed because theyíll never be attractive to FA because of the small market, cold weather, and the fact that itís milwaukee.

Scoots
10-30-2018, 01:56 PM
Would the NBA benefit by moving central cold city teams to coastal or warmer areas or since the people in those areas have little to cheer for do they gain more by keeping them there despite their disadvantages?

Hawkeye15
10-30-2018, 01:56 PM
Yes.

simple answer. yep

Scoots
10-30-2018, 01:57 PM
Are there even enough big markets to support NBA teams that meet those requirements?

Hawkeye15
10-30-2018, 01:57 PM
Would the NBA benefit by moving central cold city teams to coastal or warmer areas or since the people in those areas have little to cheer for do they gain more by keeping them there despite their disadvantages?

maybe. Good luck doing it.

Scoots
10-30-2018, 01:58 PM
Yes.

So all the noise about "location and weather don't matter any more to the modern NBA player" is bunk. Makes sense ... I'd live in Siberia if you paid me an NBA rookie salary, but if I could live in Norther CA and earn 10% less I'd absolutely live in CA.

Quinnsanity
10-30-2018, 02:25 PM
Yes. Cities like Milwaukee are screwed because theyíll never be attractive to FA because of the small market, cold weather, and the fact that itís milwaukee.

This is largely true, but I think we've seen basketball situations win out in recent years. Using Milwaukee as an example, though he obviously isn't a premium player, it's worth noting that Greg Monroe had multiple max offers from major market teams. He could have gone to the Knicks or Lakers. He chose the Bucks for basketball purposes.

What is interesting is that a lot of the best basketball situations in recent years have happened to be big markets. Golden State is a great example. Their acquisitions of Stephen Curry, Klay Thompson and Draymond Green existed entirely independently of their market as they drafted all three. The Clippers were only able to convince Chris Paul to come because they already had Blake Griffin.

But that doesn't mean stars haven't been willing to go out of their way for great basketball situations in inferior locations. Kevin Love forced his way to Cleveland and then re-signed long term a year later when he could have gone anywhere. He did that after a fairly miserable first year with the Cavs. He just wanted to win. Paul George chose OKC. Carmelo Anthony waived his no trade clause to go there as well. LaMarcus Aldridge picked San Antonio. Those last few aren't cold weather cities obviously, but look at the cold weather cities in the NBA. Minnesota is a tire fire that never had any interesting ambitions with their cap space (they had max room after getting Jimmy Butler, chose to use it on Teague and Taj rather than, say, pursuing a meeting with Hayward). Chicago has been tanking, but secured Pau when they were good. Toronto never has cap space. Detroit was never good enough to use it. Most of these things can be explained away pretty easily.

The biggest takeaways here are that no two players are alike. They all want different things out of their career. But on balance, if you have built a good basketball situation, you will have chances to go after someone.

Scoots
10-30-2018, 02:36 PM
This is largely true, but I think we've seen basketball situations win out in recent years. Using Milwaukee as an example, though he obviously isn't a premium player, it's worth noting that Greg Monroe had multiple max offers from major market teams. He could have gone to the Knicks or Lakers. He chose the Bucks for basketball purposes.

What is interesting is that a lot of the best basketball situations in recent years have happened to be big markets. Golden State is a great example. Their acquisitions of Stephen Curry, Klay Thompson and Draymond Green existed entirely independently of their market as they drafted all three. The Clippers were only able to convince Chris Paul to come because they already had Blake Griffin.

But that doesn't mean stars haven't been willing to go out of their way for great basketball situations in inferior locations. Kevin Love forced his way to Cleveland and then re-signed long term a year later when he could have gone anywhere. He did that after a fairly miserable first year with the Cavs. He just wanted to win. Paul George chose OKC. Carmelo Anthony waived his no trade clause to go there as well. LaMarcus Aldridge picked San Antonio. Those last few aren't cold weather cities obviously, but look at the cold weather cities in the NBA. Minnesota is a tire fire that never had any interesting ambitions with their cap space (they had max room after getting Jimmy Butler, chose to use it on Teague and Taj rather than, say, pursuing a meeting with Hayward). Chicago has been tanking, but secured Pau when they were good. Toronto never has cap space. Detroit was never good enough to use it. Most of these things can be explained away pretty easily.

The biggest takeaways here are that no two players are alike. They all want different things out of their career. But on balance, if you have built a good basketball situation, you will have chances to go after someone.

In the case of Love and PG though they could be (and were) paid considerably more to stay in those markets.

IndyRealist
10-30-2018, 02:39 PM
So all the noise about "location and weather don't matter any more to the modern NBA player" is bunk. Makes sense ... I'd live in Siberia if you paid me an NBA rookie salary, but if I could live in Norther CA and earn 10% less I'd absolutely live in CA.

I think you can convince a player to stay in a cold weather city, but you have to get them there first. Midwest teams trade for stars and convince them to stay, they are essentially screwed during free agency.

buckalis
10-30-2018, 03:14 PM
It takes one being really stupid to think of pro players like they are drinking coffee watching the beach and wearing T-shirts with flowers on them...

All a pro wants to be at, is a team that:

1. Has the rest of the roster that can help him compete as higher as the demand demand allows him to be.

2. Has the technical support personel and facilities that will make him even better as to move higher up the ladder OF AFTER CAREER FAME (which means after career high income ensured)

3. Pay him well...

In that order... otherwise he isn't a pro and he doesn't worth to be in the roster of anty team...

NO MORE NONSENSE PLEASE...

Hawkeye15
10-30-2018, 03:23 PM
I think you can convince a player to stay in a cold weather city, but you have to get them there first. Midwest teams trade for stars and convince them to stay, they are essentially screwed during free agency.

seriously, who can list great FA's that went to a midwestern team? LeBron doesn't count.

You are exactly right. To succeed in the midwest (Chicago might be the exception), you have to draft perfectly, and/or trade perfectly.

FlashBolt
10-30-2018, 03:34 PM
seriously, who can list great FA's that went to a midwestern team? LeBron doesn't count.

You are exactly right. To succeed in the midwest (Chicago might be the exception), you have to draft perfectly, and/or trade perfectly.

players who are born there don't even want to play there. they've been waiting their entire lives to leave :D

FlashBolt
10-30-2018, 03:36 PM
This helps players, though. Not every team will be able to compete or gather talent so now these small market teams have money to spend and overpay. Players love it I bet. always money for them if they can't crack into the big cities

Hawkeye15
10-30-2018, 03:37 PM
players who are born there don't even want to play there. they've been waiting their entire lives to leave :D

I mean, I would totally live in a different state and happily come back to MN when winter was over. Alas, I only make enough to own 1 home...

Scoots
10-30-2018, 04:52 PM
It takes one being really stupid to think of pro players like they are drinking coffee watching the beach and wearing T-shirts with flowers on them...

All a pro wants to be at, is a team that:

1. Has the rest of the roster that can help him compete as higher as the demand demand allows him to be.

2. Has the technical support personel and facilities that will make him even better as to move higher up the ladder OF AFTER CAREER FAME (which means after career high income ensured)

3. Pay him well...

In that order... otherwise he isn't a pro and he doesn't worth to be in the roster of anty team...

NO MORE NONSENSE PLEASE...

1. So every free agent who chooses a team that is not good, like LA for LeBron this year ... isn't a pro?

2. So every free agent who chose stupid money to play for the Clippers/Pelicans/Hawks in past years (notorious teams for having crappy facilities/staff) are not pros?

3. So every free agent who chose a team and accepted WAY less than their market value isn't a pro?

:rolleyes:

Scoots
10-30-2018, 04:53 PM
This helps players, though. Not every team will be able to compete or gather talent so now these small market teams have money to spend and overpay. Players love it I bet. always money for them if they can't crack into the big cities

And historically they don't have to live there in the off-season. So assuming the team doesn't make the playoffs they only have to live in the city just over half a year every year.

Scoots
10-30-2018, 04:55 PM
I mean, I would totally live in a different state and happily come back to MN when winter was over. Alas, I only make enough to own 1 home...

I have no idea how much you make but I bet you could afford some "homes" in some parts of the country. I still see signs for acres of land for a few grand as long as you like desert.

Rivera
10-30-2018, 05:04 PM
It takes one being really stupid to think of pro players like they are drinking coffee watching the beach and wearing T-shirts with flowers on them...

All a pro wants to be at, is a team that:

1. Has the rest of the roster that can help him compete as higher as the demand demand allows him to be.

2. Has the technical support personel and facilities that will make him even better as to move higher up the ladder OF AFTER CAREER FAME (which means after career high income ensured)

3. Pay him well...

In that order... otherwise he isn't a pro and he doesn't worth to be in the roster of anty team...

NO MORE NONSENSE PLEASE...

exactly! The Bucks have the best facilities in the world and once the management can fix the cap # all the free agents are coming to the Bucks! We have all 3 factors that would make Milwaukee the premium FA Destination. We have an all NBA player, we have the best facilties in the world and will support players who want to move higher up the ladder and we pay players well, just look at Greg Monroe! We paid him very well, no reason that Kawhi or KD wouldnt consider us next season if we had the cap

buckalis
10-30-2018, 05:09 PM
1. So every free agent who chooses a team that is not good, like LA for LeBron this year ... isn't a pro?

2. So every free agent who chose stupid money to play for the Clippers/Pelicans/Hawks in past years (notorious teams for having crappy facilities/staff) are not pros?

3. So every free agent who chose a team and accepted WAY less than their market value isn't a pro?

:rolleyes:

1. Let Lebron out of this.. Lebron has nothing to prove like the guys we are talking about here and wants to attend his next to come business in hollywood inparallel with the final years of his career...

2. Who are they, any names? which team was their alternative? Jordan perhaps? :-) :-)

3. Who ever said that players don't make discounts on certain teams they want to be at? ...I said "payed well", didn't say "payed the max they can get"... Giannis signed an extremely team friendly contract with MIL as to stay there... remember?

Hawkeye15
10-30-2018, 05:11 PM
I have no idea how much you make but I bet you could afford some "homes" in some parts of the country. I still see signs for acres of land for a few grand as long as you like desert.

oh for sure. But my wife's family lives in a 20 square mile area of St Paul, her teenage daughers will be out of school in less than 3 years, so we will look elsewhere at that point if it makes sense.

I would never, and I mean NEVER, live in heat again. But there are plenty of places for sale around 200-300k that are amazing in Maine, Montana, Wyoming, and a few other places we would love to have a 2nd home.

But, we are getting a Class C in the next 2 years, and will see the US that way. Or at least her, I have seen most of it.

IndyRealist
10-30-2018, 06:04 PM
And historically they don't have to live there in the off-season. So assuming the team doesn't make the playoffs they only have to live in the city just over half a year every year.

Not even half. Half your season is spent in hotels.

buckalis
10-30-2018, 06:29 PM
Not even half. Half your season is spent in hotels.
Most important... they don't give an "F" about the weather outside their training facilities when they are working as to "make their dream come true"...

Some people are simply jurks in this forum if they think that the top 450 players in the world are payed the money they are for going around bars all night and dancing in discos...

More so if some create humiliating for the sport posts like this...

This is the most ridiculous O/P I've ever seen....

Rivera
10-30-2018, 06:33 PM
Most important... they don't give an "F" about the weather outside their training facilities when they are working as to "make their dream come true"...

Some people are simply jurks in this forum if they think that the top 450 players in the world are payed the money they are for going around bars all night and dancing in discos...

More so if some create humiliating for the sport posts like this...

This is the most ridiculous O/P I've ever seen....

exactly! no one wants to go walk to the beach in nice weather after their workout. Players rather brush the snow off their car after a long hard work out!

Saddletramp
10-30-2018, 08:37 PM
exactly! no one wants to go walk to the beach in nice weather after their workout. Players rather brush the snow off their car after a long hard work out!

Plus, these guys like hot chicks. Thereís more hot chicks in New York and Miami and LA and SF. Thereís not as many in those colder, smaller towns.

Saddletramp
10-30-2018, 08:46 PM
I like how the rules for all the teams are the same when weather, cost of living, taxes, other business ventures, etc... are all different. Thatís why you need a luxury tax cap. Otherwise, some of these teams will never compete and if they do luck out and draft well in consecutive years, it wonít last long.

Scoots
10-30-2018, 10:16 PM
1. Let Lebron out of this.. Lebron has nothing to prove like the guys we are talking about here and wants to attend his next to come business in hollywood inparallel with the final years of his career...

2. Who are they, any names? which team was their alternative? Jordan perhaps? :-) :-)

3. Who ever said that players don't make discounts on certain teams they want to be at? ...I said "payed well", didn't say "payed the max they can get"... Giannis signed an extremely team friendly contract with MIL as to stay there... remember?

Can't pick and choose who to leave out of your broad statements after the fact.

There is a long list of all-star players who have signed for big money for bad teams. Giannis is certainly one.

Tim Duncan was not paid "well" on his last couple contracts with the Spurs, he was comically under-paid. But he chose to stay where he was comfortable.

The fact is there is no set rules on how pro players decide where they will sign as you claim. And no matter how they make their decision they can still be "a pro".

Scoots
10-30-2018, 10:17 PM
oh for sure. But my wife's family lives in a 20 square mile area of St Paul, her teenage daughers will be out of school in less than 3 years, so we will look elsewhere at that point if it makes sense.

I would never, and I mean NEVER, live in heat again. But there are plenty of places for sale around 200-300k that are amazing in Maine, Montana, Wyoming, and a few other places we would love to have a 2nd home.

But, we are getting a Class C in the next 2 years, and will see the US that way. Or at least her, I have seen most of it.

I'm in a similar boat, but my wife won't ever EVER live in the cold again. I'm going to end up in some small town somewhere south/west. If it was up to me it would probably be Montana/Idaho.

Scoots
10-30-2018, 10:23 PM
Not even half. Half your season is spent in hotels.

Well ... I was thinking from a week or two before the start of training camp to a week or two after the season ends ... so Aug 25ish to April 25ish ... but you are right there are probably near 100 days a year in hotels. But their primary address for themselves and their family is often in the city where they play ... though I know some players don't move their families, usually when the kids are older, which makes them hate the city the play in even more if the family doesn't live there.

Scoots
10-30-2018, 10:35 PM
I like how the rules for all the teams are the same when weather, cost of living, taxes, other business ventures, etc... are all different. Thatís why you need a luxury tax cap. Otherwise, some of these teams will never compete and if they do luck out and draft well in consecutive years, it wonít last long.

The NBA has bent over backward to protect teams that draft well, I doubt it significantly changes. And it would be pretty funny to punish doing your job well and reward mediocrity.

Saddletramp
10-30-2018, 11:02 PM
The NBA has bent over backward to protect teams that draft well, I doubt it significantly changes. And it would be pretty funny to punish doing your job well and reward mediocrity.

Nah, keep your guys all you want. Itís the exceptions and Bird Rights getting traded to you that sticks in my craw. Letís say Iguadala's $17 million gets traded at the deadline for Jimmy Butler. Then the Warriors have his Bird Rights and can give him whatever. In a few years, theyíll have Cousins (assuming he stays) and can get maxed out. And itís possible Livingston can be traded for a Markkannan or someone still on a rookie deal.

Those wouldnít happen without a bunch of young assets/good picks, but they could happen. There should be rules where that couldnít happen. Luxury tax should be capped. No exceptions, either. No way the Warriors shoulda been able to sign Cousins for $5 million a year with an exception when they have $140 million already on the books.

NetsPaint
10-30-2018, 11:06 PM
If I was a free agent I'd take the cold weather city over the hot. Give me crisp air any day over sweating on AND off the court.

Scoots
10-31-2018, 12:44 AM
Nah, keep your guys all you want. Itís the exceptions and Bird Rights getting traded to you that sticks in my craw. Letís say Iguadala's $17 million gets traded at the deadline for Jimmy Butler. Then the Warriors have his Bird Rights and can give him whatever. In a few years, theyíll have Cousins (assuming he stays) and can get maxed out. And itís possible Livingston can be traded for a Markkannan or someone still on a rookie deal.

Those wouldnít happen without a bunch of young assets/good picks, but they could happen. There should be rules where that couldnít happen. Luxury tax should be capped. No exceptions, either. No way the Warriors shoulda been able to sign Cousins for $5 million a year with an exception when they have $140 million already on the books.

Okay, I agree with that. It was just your "if they do luck out and draft well ... it won't last long".

Saddletramp
10-31-2018, 12:59 AM
Okay, I agree with that. It was just your "if they do luck out and draft well ... it won't last long".

It wonít without the money. The Orlandos and Indianas of the league donít have the same money some of these other cities do. Their window, when and if they get it through super drafting and shrewd moves, will be super small.

buckalis
10-31-2018, 07:48 AM
If I was a free agent I'd take the cold weather city over the hot. Give me crisp air any day over sweating on AND off the court.
Most free agents would agree with you and then the hardest working ones... But the quality of the premisses and the technical support and personel that a team provides, matters even more to hardworking pros that are all after improving them selves the more they can...

Surely the most ill motivated subject I've ever seen this one... the weather being the criteria for a pro to choose a team... laughable and surely created by complete ignorants...

buckalis
10-31-2018, 08:11 AM
If I was a free agent I'd take the cold weather city over the hot. Give me crisp air any day over sweating on AND off the court.


Not even half. Half your season is spent in hotels.

...which of course means that half the season's time is equaly distributed between ALL the league's players being in all shorts of different weather...

What a ridiculus subject this one... It just makes one realize how dump some posters are in here... laughable!

MILLERHIGHLIFE
10-31-2018, 08:35 AM
Winning cures all. Ring chasers will go anywhere for a easier trip to the finals. Heck before these Warriors. Never heard of guys wanting to go to Warriors back in the days of Sprewell choking a coach or when they had Biedrins and Foyle,Marshall,Maggette,Ellis all the other scrubs back in the day. It took the splash brothers hitting threes at a alarming rate and winning a ring on their own. Then KD and Cousins took notice to joining the easy route. Heck remember when Curry had glass ankles? Things can change for the better. Winning cures all. Also excellent drafting helps greatly.

Tg11
10-31-2018, 09:40 AM
Raptors could attract free agents especially if they win it all somehow Kawhi would want to stay and then if you have Lowry you add a 3rd option to them plus their bench they would look good

Saddletramp
11-01-2018, 04:09 AM
What a ridiculus subject this one... It just makes one realize how dump some posters are in here... laughable!

How dump, indeed.

zookman65
11-01-2018, 07:52 AM
Stockton and Malone stayed for almost 20 years when each could have left at their peak in FA. I think the person above with the example of GS said it best - Had Milwaukee drafted Curry, Klay, and Draymond there is a good chance that core would have stayed together in Milwaukee and Milwaukee would have been the center of the NBA universe.

MILLERHIGHLIFE
11-01-2018, 09:11 AM
Stockton and Malone stayed for almost 20 years when each could have left at their peak in FA. I think the person above with the example of GS said it best - Had Milwaukee drafted Curry, Klay, and Draymond there is a good chance that core would have stayed together in Milwaukee and Milwaukee would have been the center of the NBA universe.

If Bucks didn't trade #10 and Salmons in that 3 team deal and we moved down for Tobias. We were gonna pick Klay. Also back when we traded Bogut to Warriors. We had the choice of Curry or Ellis. But our meddling owner wanted healthy Ellis cause Curry had the injured Ankle. So actually Warriors should be thanking the Bucks poor management/judgement.

Hawkeye15
11-01-2018, 09:18 AM
Stockton and Malone stayed for almost 20 years when each could have left at their peak in FA. I think the person above with the example of GS said it best - Had Milwaukee drafted Curry, Klay, and Draymond there is a good chance that core would have stayed together in Milwaukee and Milwaukee would have been the center of the NBA universe.

Free agency was nearly non-existent in those days for the better players. Where as its common today.

WaDe03
11-01-2018, 09:28 AM
ďCreated by complete ignorantsĒ the irony.

Scoots
11-01-2018, 10:09 PM
Free agency was nearly non-existent in those days for the better players. Where as its common today.

Free agency wasn't nearly non-existent for better players ... when Malone joined the NBA free-agency was still 4 years in the future for any players.

Hawkeye15
11-01-2018, 10:51 PM
Free agency wasn't nearly non-existent for better players ... when Malone joined the NBA free-agency was still 4 years in the future for any players.

The opportunity was there but most stars never used it until late in their career many times.

warfelg
11-02-2018, 08:42 AM
The opportunity was there but most stars never used it until late in their career many times.

Especially since most better players are on better teams.

Honestly....I used to think this was the case, but at this point it doesn't really matter. Travel and communication is so easy so now you don't have to be playing there to enjoy it. I think it comes down to you need a good program in place and a quality practice center/arena to play in.

Scoots
11-02-2018, 09:57 AM
The opportunity was there but most stars never used it until late in their career many times.

There was no NBA free agency freedom for players to change teams before 1988. The drafting team owned the players rights until Tom Chambers fought it in court.

Scoots
11-02-2018, 09:58 AM
Especially since most better players are on better teams.

Honestly....I used to think this was the case, but at this point it doesn't really matter. Travel and communication is so easy so now you don't have to be playing there to enjoy it. I think it comes down to you need a good program in place and a quality practice center/arena to play in.

I think it matters less that it used to, but it's still a factor.

Hawkeye15
11-02-2018, 10:20 AM
There was no NBA free agency freedom for players to change teams before 1988. The drafting team owned the players rights until Tom Chambers fought it in court.

Dude, I know how it worked haha. I am simply stating, star players rarely used FA during the Malone/Stockton era, which is what I replied to. Shaq was the biggest one by a mile, but not a lot of guys did it. Today, it's common.

warfelg
11-02-2018, 10:50 AM
I think it matters less that it used to, but it's still a factor.

Yes it's still a factor.

I got some other ideas that are a little more radical than what I put out there, but I dunno how it would be taken. Some of the ideas include:
~ Allow teams to build 'player housing'. League controlled rent, but the team can build single, small family, large family housing units in the city. Then say a team like Minnesota can try to build amazing apartments for players and the nice living could sway someone.

~ "Tax leveling" on contracts. Find a way to make it so that the states with no state tax lack that advantage (this are mostly southern states with better weather and high taxed tourism industries) in comparison to high taxed states (outside of Cali, it's typically colder weather states).

~ I've floated this a few times, take the draft to 3 rounds because of the G-League, introduce a sandwich round to compensate teams for losing players. That way teams that see a star walk has an extra asset for improving their team.

Tg11
11-02-2018, 10:58 AM
Most players want to go to big markets because that is just the fact of the matter because they do it more or less to build their stock; build their brand but also they are not going to want to go to a small market where it is cold especially if that time doesn't afford you the chance to win a title

warfelg
11-02-2018, 11:01 AM
Most players want to go to big markets because that is just the fact of the matter because they do it more or less to build their stock; build their brand but also they are not going to want to go to a small market where it is cold especially if that time doesn't afford you the chance to win a title

Technically Oakland/SF is a small market.
Portland
Cleveland
OKC

And players have had no problem building a brand there. :shrug:

Hawkeye15
11-02-2018, 11:09 AM
Technically Oakland/SF is a small market.
Portland
Cleveland
OKC

And players have had no problem building a brand there. :shrug:

Cleveland is not a good example, they had 1 guy haha. OKC moved from Seattle with young stars in place. I can guarantee you if they had a crappier roster nobody would care about them.

There is truth to large markets. Remember too, most NBA players are young black dudes, so they want to be around areas that cater to their culture, style, women, etc. Minneapolis, OKC, Milwaukee, etc, do not do this as well as Chicago, NY, LAL, Atlanta, etc.

Tg11
11-02-2018, 11:19 AM
Cleveland is not a good example, they had 1 guy haha. OKC moved from Seattle with young stars in place. I can guarantee you if they had a crappier roster nobody would care about them.

There is truth to large markets. Remember too, most NBA players are young black dudes, so they want to be around areas that cater to their culture, style, women, etc. Minneapolis, OKC, Milwaukee, etc, do not do this as well as Chicago, NY, LAL, Atlanta, etc.

Exactly what I am trying to say and Toronto may be a cold weather city but Toronto is a huge market and Toronto can cater to the culture, style, women, etc. it helps that we have Drake...Drizzy as Raptors ambassador too

warfelg
11-02-2018, 11:22 AM
Cleveland is not a good example, they had 1 guy haha. OKC moved from Seattle with young stars in place. I can guarantee you if they had a crappier roster nobody would care about them.

There is truth to large markets. Remember too, most NBA players are young black dudes, so they want to be around areas that cater to their culture, style, women, etc. Minneapolis, OKC, Milwaukee, etc, do not do this as well as Chicago, NY, LAL, Atlanta, etc.

I'm not saying there isn't and truth to it.

But Kyrie also built his brand in Cleveland. Westbrook moved to OKC before Weskbrook got the chance to play in Seattle. KD only played 1 year in Seattle.

Including ATL in that going well list....comeon man.

Hawkeye15
11-02-2018, 12:11 PM
I'm not saying there isn't and truth to it.

But Kyrie also built his brand in Cleveland. Westbrook moved to OKC before Weskbrook got the chance to play in Seattle. KD only played 1 year in Seattle.

Including ATL in that going well list....comeon man.

Kyrie was drafted there (no choice), and left as soon as he could. Drafting a player, and keeping them there, are 2 different things that signing a FA.

Atlanta gets free agents to some degree, and the only explanation I can think of, is it's a very culturally black city.

warfelg
11-02-2018, 12:23 PM
Kyrie was drafted there (no choice), and left as soon as he could. Drafting a player, and keeping them there, are 2 different things that signing a FA.

Atlanta gets free agents to some degree, and the only explanation I can think of, is it's a very culturally black city.

Some. Their biggest FA signings since 2000 are Louis Williams, Joe Johnson (sign and trade), Dwight Howard (as a shell of himself).

I think part of the problem is big markets haven't done a great job getting impact big FA's anymore. Players are going to where can I win, and it doesn't matter as much where. LA, NYC, Chicago, Philly (as much as I hate to say it), Atlanta aren't the draw they could be without a winning team.

Hawkeye15
11-02-2018, 12:31 PM
Some. Their biggest FA signings since 2000 are Louis Williams, Joe Johnson (sign and trade), Dwight Howard (as a shell of himself).

I think part of the problem is big markets haven't done a great job getting impact big FA's anymore. Players are going to where can I win, and it doesn't matter as much where. LA, NYC, Chicago, Philly (as much as I hate to say it), Atlanta aren't the draw they could be without a winning team.

No doubt on the last paragraph. I also think they were so used to everyone running to them over the years, they never really learned how to court. Now that the big market isn't the draw it was, and endorsements can be had anywhere, large markets can't just assume they will get every FA.

warfelg
11-02-2018, 12:32 PM
No doubt on the last paragraph. I also think they were so used to everyone running to them over the years, they never really learned how to court. Now that the big market isn't the draw it was, and endorsements can be had anywhere, large markets can't just assume they will get every FA.

Yea, and that was kinda my major point there. Players don't need that market anymore TBH. They can market themselves anywhere.

Scoots
11-02-2018, 01:50 PM
Dude, I know how it worked haha. I am simply stating, star players rarely used FA during the Malone/Stockton era, which is what I replied to. Shaq was the biggest one by a mile, but not a lot of guys did it. Today, it's common.

Okay. I agree that stars changing teams using free agency is far more common now than it was in the past.

Scoots
11-02-2018, 01:55 PM
Yes it's still a factor.

I got some other ideas that are a little more radical than what I put out there, but I dunno how it would be taken. Some of the ideas include:
~ Allow teams to build 'player housing'. League controlled rent, but the team can build single, small family, large family housing units in the city. Then say a team like Minnesota can try to build amazing apartments for players and the nice living could sway someone.

~ "Tax leveling" on contracts. Find a way to make it so that the states with no state tax lack that advantage (this are mostly southern states with better weather and high taxed tourism industries) in comparison to high taxed states (outside of Cali, it's typically colder weather states).

~ I've floated this a few times, take the draft to 3 rounds because of the G-League, introduce a sandwich round to compensate teams for losing players. That way teams that see a star walk has an extra asset for improving their team.

The housing thing seems kind of pointless ... most of these guys know real estate is a good investment so I don't see much point there.

Instead of tax leveling just go to COL leveling, the issue there is that the places with the most common appeal are incredibly expensive places to live so it would give an advantage to those places like CA and NY ... need to have a monetary value assigned to the weather, beaches, business opportunities, etc to truly force a level playing field.

I'm all for increasing the draft and the roster sizes, and giving teams compensation for losing free agents makes sense to me.

Hawkeye15
11-02-2018, 01:57 PM
Okay. I agree that stars changing teams using free agency is far more common now than it was in the past.

I remember the Chambers thing being kind of a big deal for back then. I lived in Seattle during his tenure there, as a kid, and I was into basketball then. I remember him leaving.

Scoots
11-02-2018, 01:59 PM
Some. Their biggest FA signings since 2000 are Louis Williams, Joe Johnson (sign and trade), Dwight Howard (as a shell of himself).

I think part of the problem is big markets haven't done a great job getting impact big FA's anymore. Players are going to where can I win, and it doesn't matter as much where. LA, NYC, Chicago, Philly (as much as I hate to say it), Atlanta aren't the draw they could be without a winning team.

The reality is that star players often find other ways to change teams than through free agency.

Scoots
11-02-2018, 02:02 PM
I remember the Chambers thing being kind of a big deal for back then. I lived in Seattle during his tenure there, as a kid, and I was into basketball then. I remember him leaving.

It was a big deal. It was also a big deal when it happened in the NFL 6 years later (IIRC) ... the line from the movie "Show me the money!" was given to the writer by one of the guys that sued the NFL for free agency, Tim McDonald. It's kind of amazing to think that free agency is so young relatively. In the NBA 30 years is not that long considering there is overlap between players in the NBA now and players who didn't have free agency as an option at some point in their careers.

Hawkeye15
11-02-2018, 02:03 PM
The reality is that star players often find other ways to change teams than through free agency.

well yeah, that is the hopeful option for anyone. Make a ton more money.

Hawkeye15
11-02-2018, 02:04 PM
It was a big deal. It was also a big deal when it happened in the NFL 6 years later (IIRC) ... the line from the movie "Show me the money!" was given to the writer by one of the guys that sued the NFL for free agency, Tim McDonald. It's kind of amazing to think that free agency is so young relatively. In the NBA 30 years is not that long considering there is overlap between players in the NBA now and players who didn't have free agency as an option at some point in their careers.

I know it. And that is also why I don't get why some fans hold it against a player for not staying with the team that drafted him forever. Think how differently someone like Dan Marino would be thought of, if he had simply told the Dophins, "yep, I am leaving for a better team", and he won a couple super bowls.

warfelg
11-02-2018, 02:25 PM
The housing thing seems kind of pointless ... most of these guys know real estate is a good investment so I don't see much point there.

Instead of tax leveling just go to COL leveling, the issue there is that the places with the most common appeal are incredibly expensive places to live so it would give an advantage to those places like CA and NY ... need to have a monetary value assigned to the weather, beaches, business opportunities, etc to truly force a level playing field.

I'm all for increasing the draft and the roster sizes, and giving teams compensation for losing free agents makes sense to me.

And I know someone was going to say something about the real estate investments, but the truth is most players just rent an apartment in the city they play in. Like JJ Reddicks family lives in Brooklyn, he has an apartment in Philly, and they let him go there on off days. It was something the developed early last year, and itís why he ended up here over Indy. I think it was a while ago, but they did a similar arrangement with another play (Brand I think?) where he could go to his family in season if there was multiple off days.

Anyways the idea there is even if you arenít in a ďnice cityĒ you can allow teams to give players nice places to live if they choose.

Cost of living helps big market teams. So I massively disagree there. A rookie getting $8mil a year in Memphis gets more bang for their buck than a rookie at $8mil in NYC. Ditto for a vet. If they didnít think about that, thatís on them. But the fact that Cali residents and players are taxed at near 40%, while Florida players and residents are at 0% is an absurd difference.

Letís say your an ok player, and you are picking between Dallas and Detroit. Same contract, same money, same role. Dallas has a 0% state tax, Detroit has a 12% state tax (making the number up). Thatís a $600,000 difference on a $5,000,000 in state earnings. And Dallas is the more expensive city to live in. So you want to give Dallas the tax advantage and the cost of living advantage? That could end up a $1mil+ advantage!

And Iím not for increasing roster size. Require a GLeague team or partnership. 3rd round is all 2-way contracts. The ďsandwichĒ round can be post lotto up to 5 picks, or 10 picks between rounds 1&2. Thatís an extra asset to trade or restock with.

Scoots
11-02-2018, 03:30 PM
And I know someone was going to say something about the real estate investments, but the truth is most players just rent an apartment in the city they play in. Like JJ Reddicks family lives in Brooklyn, he has an apartment in Philly, and they let him go there on off days. It was something the developed early last year, and itís why he ended up here over Indy. I think it was a while ago, but they did a similar arrangement with another play (Brand I think?) where he could go to his family in season if there was multiple off days.

Anyways the idea there is even if you arenít in a ďnice cityĒ you can allow teams to give players nice places to live if they choose.

Cost of living helps big market teams. So I massively disagree there. A rookie getting $8mil a year in Memphis gets more bang for their buck than a rookie at $8mil in NYC. Ditto for a vet. If they didnít think about that, thatís on them. But the fact that Cali residents and players are taxed at near 40%, while Florida players and residents are at 0% is an absurd difference.

Letís say your an ok player, and you are picking between Dallas and Detroit. Same contract, same money, same role. Dallas has a 0% state tax, Detroit has a 12% state tax (making the number up). Thatís a $600,000 difference on a $5,000,000 in state earnings. And Dallas is the more expensive city to live in. So you want to give Dallas the tax advantage and the cost of living advantage? That could end up a $1mil+ advantage!

And Iím not for increasing roster size. Require a GLeague team or partnership. 3rd round is all 2-way contracts. The ďsandwichĒ round can be post lotto up to 5 picks, or 10 picks between rounds 1&2. Thatís an extra asset to trade or restock with.

I'm saying the tax and COL adjustments need to be combined with other city advantages/disadvantaged and they all need to be balanced out. So, say every team pays a certain amount into an adjustment pool, then from that pool players who play in crappy cities get extra money for the environment, and players who play where there are high texes get more than players who play where there are low/no taxes, and players who play in cities with high appeal get less money because they've made the easy choice. Basically use money to smooth out the advantage between locale.

I think increasing the number of contracts teams can offer will help develop talent for the NBA that is otherwise lost, and they need to be able to pay them reasonable money to keep them from going overseas. Also larger rosters may make it a little easier for the 82 game regular season to be managed by minimizing minutes for star players, maybe set minimum minutes for players on the roster.

Hawkeye15
11-02-2018, 03:34 PM
I'm saying the tax and COL adjustments need to be combined with other city advantages/disadvantaged and they all need to be balanced out. So, say every team pays a certain amount into an adjustment pool, then from that pool players who play in crappy cities get extra money for the environment, and players who play where there are high texes get more than players who play where there are low/no taxes, and players who play in cities with high appeal get less money because they've made the easy choice. Basically use money to smooth out the advantage between locale.

I think increasing the number of contracts teams can offer will help develop talent for the NBA that is otherwise lost, and they need to be able to pay them reasonable money to keep them from going overseas. Also larger rosters may make it a little easier for the 82 game regular season to be managed by minimizing minutes for star players, maybe set minimum minutes for players on the roster.

as a Wolves fan, no thanks. Salaries don't need to be evened out. If you want to live in a city as bad azz as NY, you should have to pay for it, just like everyone else. Like, I wouldn't move to San Fran unless my salary went up 3 times what it is. That is my choice. You can't remove the appeal of living in San Antonio, just to even it out for a guy living in Brooklyn. That isn't fair.

Remember too, we are talking about guys who make more in one contract than any of us will our entire lives, so keep that spectrum in mind. What the **** does a player in their 20s care about making 15 million/year in NY versus Houston?

warfelg
11-02-2018, 03:36 PM
as a Wolves fan, no thanks. Salaries don't need to be evened out. If you want to live in a city as bad azz as NY, you should have to pay for it, just like everyone else. Like, I wouldn't move to San Fran unless my salary went up 3 times what it is. That is my choice. You can't remove the appeal of living in San Antonio, just to even it out for a guy living in Brooklyn. That isn't fair.

Remember too, we are talking about guys who make more in one contract than any of us will our entire lives, so keep that spectrum in mind. What the **** does a player in their 20s care about making 15 million/year in NY versus Houston?

This so much this. COL does not need evening. Taxed salary though does.

warfelg
11-02-2018, 03:40 PM
I'm saying the tax and COL adjustments need to be combined with other city advantages/disadvantaged and they all need to be balanced out. So, say every team pays a certain amount into an adjustment pool, then from that pool players who play in crappy cities get extra money for the environment, and players who play where there are high texes get more than players who play where there are low/no taxes, and players who play in cities with high appeal get less money because they've made the easy choice. Basically use money to smooth out the advantage between locale.

I think increasing the number of contracts teams can offer will help develop talent for the NBA that is otherwise lost, and they need to be able to pay them reasonable money to keep them from going overseas. Also larger rosters may make it a little easier for the 82 game regular season to be managed by minimizing minutes for star players, maybe set minimum minutes for players on the roster.

Think of how silly this ends up:
A player in NYC can get $55mil AAV but in Orland $40mil AAV because of cost of living?

What I'm talking about is a player in LA loses 40% of the their gross pay, compared to about 15% for a Florida player. So the NBA should find a way to "tax" the Florida player or "compensate" the LA player so they lose the same amount.

MLL and PLL (the two Lacrosse leagues for outdoor) do this by having your contract technically go through their HQ (Baltimore Maryland) so that whether you play for Boston, Denver, Charlotte, or Baltimore you get paid the same amount after taxes on the same deal.

That's what the NBA should be looking at.

Don't like the cost of living? That's on your dumb *** as a player.

Hawkeye15
11-02-2018, 03:43 PM
This so much this. COL does not need evening. Taxed salary though does.

agreed. Then its up to the player to decide what cost of living they are willing to put up with. Drafted players have no choice, but then we enter the, "dude you make millions get over it" argument.

warfelg
11-02-2018, 04:47 PM
agreed. Then its up to the player to decide what cost of living they are willing to put up with. Drafted players have no choice, but then we enter the, "dude you make millions get over it" argument.

Yup. You want to be in NYC? That's up to you to pay for this:
https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/Manhattan-New-York-NY/31502746_zpid/12530_rid/globalrelevanceex_sort/40.949566,-73.678093,40.609521,-74.268609_rect/10_zm/
The NBA shouldn't be subsidizing your rich ***.

For the same price you get double the living space in Salt Lake City:
https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/Salt-Lake-City-UT/63340957_zpid/6909_rid/10000000-12000000_price/41635-49962_mp/globalrelevanceex_sort/40.946454,-111.625557,40.606394,-112.216073_rect/10_zm/

Or in Philly you can get the same size for $9million less:
https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/Philadelphia-PA/165609977_zpid/13271_rid/4500-5500_size/globalrelevanceex_sort/40.174413,-74.822732,39.830422,-75.413247_rect/10_zm/

So should the NBA be subsidizing players for those lifestyle choices, or should we call the guy a dumbass?

warfelg
11-02-2018, 04:50 PM
Unrelated, anyone got a Spare $1.55mil? I wanna be Justin Verlander and Kate Upton's neighbor:
https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/111703774_zpid/4500-5500_size/globalrelevanceex_sort/37.599646,-77.612014,37.555159,-77.685828_rect/13_zm/

Hawkeye15
11-02-2018, 05:10 PM
Yup. You want to be in NYC? That's up to you to pay for this:
https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/Manhattan-New-York-NY/31502746_zpid/12530_rid/globalrelevanceex_sort/40.949566,-73.678093,40.609521,-74.268609_rect/10_zm/
The NBA shouldn't be subsidizing your rich ***.

For the same price you get double the living space in Salt Lake City:
https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/Salt-Lake-City-UT/63340957_zpid/6909_rid/10000000-12000000_price/41635-49962_mp/globalrelevanceex_sort/40.946454,-111.625557,40.606394,-112.216073_rect/10_zm/

Or in Philly you can get the same size for $9million less:
https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/Philadelphia-PA/165609977_zpid/13271_rid/4500-5500_size/globalrelevanceex_sort/40.174413,-74.822732,39.830422,-75.413247_rect/10_zm/

So should the NBA be subsidizing players for those lifestyle choices, or should we call the guy a dumbass?

richest suburb of Minnesota, I grew up 3 mins from this house

https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/MN/pmf,pf_pt/1777514_zpid/31_rid/5000000-_price/20818-_mp/globalrelevanceex_sort/45.025373,-93.42928,44.919841,-93.613816_rect/12_zm/

long story short, for 700k, you can get an incredible home in MN. That number is less in Houston, or San Antonio, or even Atlanta/Miami. Regardless, I think we agree here haha

Rivera
11-02-2018, 05:17 PM
am I crazy to think big markets still matter?

yes you can build your brand anywhere and become famous.

LeBron in Cleveland became one of the biggest stars in the world

I almost feel like hes more famous and his brand is bigger because hes on the LA Lakers. He just feels bigger than basketball now and I feel like he was on the fringe but still an NBA player while in cleveland/miami. but now in the Lakers he seems bigger than basketball, maybe its the production company Bron has thats becoming a bigger brand, but he has much more access to hollywood and more cameras now in LA

Scoots
11-02-2018, 05:55 PM
as a Wolves fan, no thanks. Salaries don't need to be evened out. If you want to live in a city as bad azz as NY, you should have to pay for it, just like everyone else. Like, I wouldn't move to San Fran unless my salary went up 3 times what it is. That is my choice. You can't remove the appeal of living in San Antonio, just to even it out for a guy living in Brooklyn. That isn't fair.

Remember too, we are talking about guys who make more in one contract than any of us will our entire lives, so keep that spectrum in mind. What the **** does a player in their 20s care about making 15 million/year in NY versus Houston?

I'm not communicating this well. I'm saying there SHOULD be a penalty for choosing NY/LA over Minny, and it may be more than just the tax. I'm saying that a $100M in Minny should have exactly the same effective player talent purchasing talent as $100M in LA/NYC by adding incentives/balancing money to the contract.

Saddletramp
11-02-2018, 05:56 PM
Technically Oakland/SF is a small market.
Portland
Cleveland
OKC

And players have had no problem building a brand there. :shrug:

How is the Bay Area a small market? Add to that the tech money making that market size moot, anyway. Scoots said this before and never defended it (that I saw).

Scoots
11-02-2018, 05:56 PM
This so much this. COL does not need evening. Taxed salary though does.

I'm saying balance it all out. Not just one or the other ... make it really balanced.

Scoots
11-02-2018, 06:00 PM
Think of how silly this ends up:
A player in NYC can get $55mil AAV but in Orland $40mil AAV because of cost of living?

What I'm talking about is a player in LA loses 40% of the their gross pay, compared to about 15% for a Florida player. So the NBA should find a way to "tax" the Florida player or "compensate" the LA player so they lose the same amount.

MLL and PLL (the two Lacrosse leagues for outdoor) do this by having your contract technically go through their HQ (Baltimore Maryland) so that whether you play for Boston, Denver, Charlotte, or Baltimore you get paid the same amount after taxes on the same deal.

That's what the NBA should be looking at.

Don't like the cost of living? That's on your dumb *** as a player.

I think you are focusing on one thing ... tax OR COL ... balance it all so the purchasing power of a dollar is equal for every team.

Scoots
11-02-2018, 06:01 PM
agreed. Then its up to the player to decide what cost of living they are willing to put up with. Drafted players have no choice, but then we enter the, "dude you make millions get over it" argument.

It's not about the players, it's about the teams. Make the contract basis all teams start from equal and the only difference then will be ownership/coaching/facilities/style of play/teammates.

Scoots
11-02-2018, 06:04 PM
am I crazy to think big markets still matter?

yes you can build your brand anywhere and become famous.

LeBron in Cleveland became one of the biggest stars in the world

I almost feel like hes more famous and his brand is bigger because hes on the LA Lakers. He just feels bigger than basketball now and I feel like he was on the fringe but still an NBA player while in cleveland/miami. but now in the Lakers he seems bigger than basketball, maybe its the production company Bron has thats becoming a bigger brand, but he has much more access to hollywood and more cameras now in LA

I think some of that was that LeBron is a special case where his high school games were being shown on ESPN, and the fact that he was a short trip from every major city in the north eastern US was a big help too, so he was not only on TV regularly but they could see him multiple times a year live too.

Scoots
11-02-2018, 06:08 PM
How is the Bay Area a small market? Add to that the tech money making that market size moot, anyway. Scoots said this before and never defended it (that I saw).

It was a joke. It's a fact that Oakland and Cleveland are similar size markets. It is not true that the Cleveland metropolitan area is a similar size market as the metropolitan area around Oakland which, depending on how far you push it, includes SF, San Jose, Oakland, and dozens of other cities.

warfelg
11-02-2018, 06:11 PM
How is the Bay Area a small market? Add to that the tech money making that market size moot, anyway. Scoots said this before and never defended it (that I saw).

The Bay area dropped from 6-8 and is losing TV viewers at the highest rate in the country. It's people size takes 3 cities to make it the 6th largest market. The top 4 are all single city, the next 4 behind the Bay area are single city. In terms of how much of the available media market the Bay area reaches it's actually low. Land mass wise, it's also one of the "largest" area 'big media' markets.


I'm saying balance it all out. Not just one or the other ... make it really balanced.

No. LOL. Did you see that post on home prices? You want the NBA to even that out? **** the LA teams would dominate in that case.

warfelg
11-02-2018, 06:14 PM
I think you are focusing on one thing ... tax OR COL ... balance it all so the purchasing power of a dollar is equal for every team.


It's not about the players, it's about the teams. Make the contract basis all teams start from equal and the only difference then will be ownership/coaching/facilities/style of play/teammates.

Again. This is stupid. So because it costs more the Knicks should be allowed to pay 3x more than the Thunder? What if that player gets traded? Does his contract change size? What about if they get cut and latch on somewhere else? What does it mean for buyouts.

Leveling contracts based on COL is a sure fire way to kill small markets. We have a non-level COL as it is now and small markets struggle to attract players despite the fact it's cheaper to live there.

Saddletramp
11-02-2018, 06:56 PM
The Bay area dropped from 6-8 and is losing TV viewers at the highest rate in the country. It's people size takes 3 cities to make it the 6th largest market. The top 4 are all single city, the next 4 behind the Bay area are single city. In terms of how much of the available media market the Bay area reaches it's actually low. Land mass wise, it's also one of the "largest" area 'big media' markets.



No. LOL. Did you see that post on home prices? You want the NBA to even that out? **** the LA teams would dominate in that case.

Top 8 is still not ďsmall marketĒ......wtf. So the New York market doesnít count any of the adjacent suburbs? And DFW is a two city market so I donít know where youíre getting your info from.

Saddletramp
11-02-2018, 06:58 PM
As far as taxes and COL go, themís the breaks. There are reasons different cities have different advantages or disadvantages.

Scoots
11-02-2018, 07:01 PM
The Bay area dropped from 6-8 and is losing TV viewers at the highest rate in the country. It's people size takes 3 cities to make it the 6th largest market. The top 4 are all single city, the next 4 behind the Bay area are single city. In terms of how much of the available media market the Bay area reaches it's actually low. Land mass wise, it's also one of the "largest" area 'big media' markets.



No. LOL. Did you see that post on home prices? You want the NBA to even that out? **** the LA teams would dominate in that case.

Sigh ... I'm saying even it ALL out so that a player would get so much more money for choosing to play in Minnesota or OKC that the decision will JUST be the team and not the location. What the numbers are or which direction they go for each location for each factor wouldn't matter because the algorithm would be purposed with finding balance between every franchise.

FlashBolt
11-02-2018, 07:03 PM
am I crazy to think big markets still matter?

yes you can build your brand anywhere and become famous.

LeBron in Cleveland became one of the biggest stars in the world

I almost feel like hes more famous and his brand is bigger because hes on the LA Lakers. He just feels bigger than basketball now and I feel like he was on the fringe but still an NBA player while in cleveland/miami. but now in the Lakers he seems bigger than basketball, maybe its the production company Bron has thats becoming a bigger brand, but he has much more access to hollywood and more cameras now in LA

i don't think the Lakers changed that at all other than he's now more available to the L.A. market and won't miss opportunities since he's there the entire year. He's just more business driven than any other athlete in any history of any sport.

Scoots
11-02-2018, 07:08 PM
Again. This is stupid. So because it costs more the Knicks should be allowed to pay 3x more than the Thunder? What if that player gets traded? Does his contract change size? What about if they get cut and latch on somewhere else? What does it mean for buyouts.

Leveling contracts based on COL is a sure fire way to kill small markets. We have a non-level COL as it is now and small markets struggle to attract players despite the fact it's cheaper to live there.

The Knicks should not be penalized by the Heat not having an income tax, likewise the Thunder should not be penalized by being in Oklahoma compared to being in NYC. Find a way to balance it all out so that money is no longer a factor. That will result in players playing in LESS desirable locations getting MORE money to do so. What's more the leveling money will come from all franchises so it won't give an advantage to one franchise over another. Their buying power of their money will be equalized for all factors other than the team itself.

Scoots
11-02-2018, 07:10 PM
As far as taxes and COL go, themís the breaks. There are reasons different cities have different advantages or disadvantages.

And I think it would interesting to even them ALL out.

warfelg
11-02-2018, 07:19 PM
The Knicks should not be penalized by the Heat not having an income tax, likewise the Thunder should not be penalized by being in Oklahoma compared to being in NYC. Find a way to balance it all out so that money is no longer a factor. That will result in players playing in LESS desirable locations getting MORE money to do so. What's more the leveling money will come from all franchises so it won't give an advantage to one franchise over another. Their buying power of their money will be equalized for all factors other than the team itself.

You know COL leveling causes big markets and expensive markets to become more desirable right?

Saddletramp
11-02-2018, 07:20 PM
And I think it would interesting to even them ALL out.

You canít level geography, weather or proximity to Hollywood, New York City or Silicon Valley so what the **** are you talking about?

Saddletramp
11-02-2018, 08:03 PM
You know COL leveling causes big markets and expensive markets to become more desirable right?

Yeah, it makes no sense.

Scoots
11-02-2018, 11:39 PM
You know COL leveling causes big markets and expensive markets to become more desirable right?

That's why I keep saying it should ALL be factored in. Not just COL, not just tax, but everything.

Scoots
11-02-2018, 11:41 PM
You canít level geography, weather or proximity to Hollywood, New York City or Silicon Valley so what the **** are you talking about?

Why not? You figure out a bunch of factors and adjust until the the players have enough incentive to choose the smaller market teams without it costing the smaller market teams more. It's not uncommon for sports to have leveling rules. If they don't work, you adjust, if they still don't work, you adjust again, over time the adjustments are smaller and smaller as you approach equilibrium.

Saddletramp
11-03-2018, 03:31 AM
Why not? You figure out a bunch of factors and adjust until the the players have enough incentive to choose the smaller market teams without it costing the smaller market teams more. It's not uncommon for sports to have leveling rules. If they don't work, you adjust, if they still don't work, you adjust again, over time the adjustments are smaller and smaller as you approach equilibrium.

What? You want taxes, cost of living incentives, topography, weather, proximity to major cities, etc.....all the same. The first two are huge monetary risks and the rest are physically impossible to



Ahhhh, youíre just trolling. How moderator of you.

C-ross12
11-03-2018, 07:40 AM
oh for sure. But my wife's family lives in a 20 square mile area of St Paul, her teenage daughers will be out of school in less than 3 years, so we will look elsewhere at that point if it makes sense.

I would never, and I mean NEVER, live in heat again. But there are plenty of places for sale around 200-300k that are amazing in Maine, Montana, Wyoming, and a few other places we would love to have a 2nd home.

But, we are getting a Class C in the next 2 years, and will see the US that way. Or at least her, I have seen most of it.

I don't mean to derail this thing, but if you liked rural Maine and had 300k you could buy a small castle in some parts of Maine.

Scoots
11-03-2018, 05:04 PM
What? You want taxes, cost of living incentives, topography, weather, proximity to major cities, etc.....all the same. The first two are huge monetary risks and the rest are physically impossible to



Ahhhh, youíre just trolling. How moderator of you.

No. I don't want them equal, I want them balanced so location is moot to help small teams.

warfelg
11-03-2018, 06:13 PM
No. I don't want them equal, I want them balanced so location is moot to help small teams.

Again, that actually takes away the advantage of a small market team.

Saddletramp
11-03-2018, 06:14 PM
No. I don't want them equal, I want them balanced so location is moot to help small teams.

That would hurt small teams. This has been explained. The tax leveling could possibly work but it shouldnít be a detriment to players that sign to cities with states with zero income tax.

The NBA canít change certain things like state income tax or COL just like they canít change things like weather and topography.

Raps08-09 Champ
11-03-2018, 10:21 PM
They are at a disadvantage but not much you can do about it.

FlashBolt
11-04-2018, 02:58 AM
Why not? You figure out a bunch of factors and adjust until the the players have enough incentive to choose the smaller market teams without it costing the smaller market teams more. It's not uncommon for sports to have leveling rules. If they don't work, you adjust, if they still don't work, you adjust again, over time the adjustments are smaller and smaller as you approach equilibrium.

That doesn't even make feasible sense. In a perfect world, sure, location doesn't matter. But filthy rich basketball players making $40 million per year are trying to have fun and not be stuck in some cold snowy town with nothing to do.

Scoots
11-04-2018, 12:46 PM
Again, that actually takes away the advantage of a small market team.

I'm saying that a player will get MORE money to play for the small market team without it costing the small market team any additional money.

Scoots
11-04-2018, 12:46 PM
That would hurt small teams. This has been explained. The tax leveling could possibly work but it shouldnít be a detriment to players that sign to cities with states with zero income tax.

The NBA canít change certain things like state income tax or COL just like they canít change things like weather and topography.

Clearly I'm not explaining myself clearly.

Scoots
11-04-2018, 12:48 PM
That doesn't even make feasible sense. In a perfect world, sure, location doesn't matter. But filthy rich basketball players making $40 million per year are trying to have fun and not be stuck in some cold snowy town with nothing to do.

And the idea is, if you had a player making $40 and living in LA, would he choose Wisconsin if he could get $50?

Saddletramp
11-04-2018, 03:22 PM
Clearly I'm not explaining myself clearly.

Clearly

warfelg
11-04-2018, 03:39 PM
I'm saying that a player will get MORE money to play for the small market team without it costing the small market team any additional money.

COL leveling means you get MORE money in MORE expensive cities. NYC and LA are two of the most expensive cities to live in. So you would have to pay those players so much more to take that away.

warfelg
11-04-2018, 03:51 PM
And the idea is, if you had a player making $40 and living in LA, would he choose Wisconsin if he could get $50?

That's not COL leveling lol.

Saddletramp
11-04-2018, 04:19 PM
Also, donít some of these shoe companies pay more if you play in big markets? Would the NBA make up the difference? And like someone brought up earlier, what happens during a trade? Will there be a 30% leveling kicker paired along with the 15% trade kicker already in the players deal (if they have one)?

Mr.B
11-04-2018, 05:54 PM
Do teams in not-coastal cold weather cities still have to pay more for free agent players and settle for 2nd tier free agents?

Florida and Texas have tax and weather advantages and California and New York/Boston have high taxes and cost of living which may discourage some players but they don't counter the appeal of the size of the markets and the historical appeal.

So if we look at the remaining teams as if they were on a relatively even playing field, do the cold weather cities have a distinct disadvantage?

Warm weather and no state tax hasnít ever helped the Mavs. At least not when bringing in new free agents. Barnes and Deandre are the two best players theyíve really ever been able to sign in free agency (besides their own free agents).

Scoots
11-04-2018, 06:15 PM
That's not COL leveling lol.

*sigh* ... I am saying find a balance among all of the money and social and environmental factors by giving players money from the league to balance them out. I'm NOT just talking about COL or taxes but all factors of location until location is a minimum factor.

warfelg
11-04-2018, 06:42 PM
The only way to make location a minimum factor is to put all 30 teams in the same city.

Saddletramp
11-04-2018, 07:15 PM
*sigh* ... I am saying find a balance among all of the money and social and environmental factors by giving players money from the league to balance them out. I'm NOT just talking about COL or taxes but all factors of location until location is a minimum factor.

So youíre saying a $10 million contract in OKC would be worth $6 million in LA? So youíd be paying more to live by Hollywood/beaches/climate/hotter chicks? Like a reverse cost of living?


OKC pros: More money (that would be offset by a Nike endorsement)
Los Angeles pros: everything else

FlashBolt
11-04-2018, 07:19 PM
but then how would salary cap work for these purposes? A team pays significantly more money than another team and has to end up at a disadvantage because they overpaid?

FlashBolt
11-04-2018, 07:21 PM
So youíre saying a $10 million contract in OKC would be worth $6 million in LA? So youíd be paying more to live by Hollywood/beaches/climate/hotter chicks? Like a reverse cost of living?


OKC pros: More money (that would be offset by a Nike endorsement)
Los Angeles pros: everything else

in this day and age, I don't think location is as important as being marketable unless you're a local star. Nike and most endorsement companies today are all global so whether you're from OKC or Los Angeles, as long as you're good and marketable, location wouldn't change much. It'll help to get some better connections but Nike has done a great job regardless of location.

Saddletramp
11-04-2018, 07:26 PM
So what if the Lakers, Magic and Thunder all offer Jimmy Butler an identical contract next year (assuming they all have the cap space). Letís say itís 4 years $120 million dollars. Also, letís say that the Thunder win the championship this year.

Then, this leveling out happens......LAís would end up being the 4/$120 (due to Hollywood/beaches/hot chicks/etc) but signing in OKC would gain him an extra $30 million (due to strength of roster and none of those amenities)? And because they arenít very good and donít have the LA amenities, the contract with Orlando is upped to an extra $60 million over the course of the 4 years? But now the income tax comes into play. A contract in LA needs to be upped a little because thereís no state income tax in Florida. But California's state income tax tops out at 13.3% and Oklahomaís tops out at 5%. So the math on that would change the contracts to..........

Is this what youíre talking about?

Scoots
11-04-2018, 08:38 PM
So youíre saying a $10 million contract in OKC would be worth $6 million in LA? So youíd be paying more to live by Hollywood/beaches/climate/hotter chicks? Like a reverse cost of living?


OKC pros: More money (that would be offset by a Nike endorsement)
Los Angeles pros: everything else

Yes. So if a player was offered $5 in two cities he would make additional money for choosing the "lesser" city.

Saddletramp
11-04-2018, 09:46 PM
This would never work on many different levels.

FlashBolt
11-04-2018, 09:50 PM
Yes. So if a player was offered $5 in two cities he would make additional money for choosing the "lesser" city.

i think now we're talking about a lot of political factors as well. Gets way too messy and complicated.

Hawkeye15
11-05-2018, 10:29 AM
I don't mean to derail this thing, but if you liked rural Maine and had 300k you could buy a small castle in some parts of Maine.

I know it man. I would love to be near the water if we moved there, and perhaps north of Portland more. But, it would depend on when we went (daughter is 19 months).

You are right though, you can seriously get a great house in Maine for under 200k.

Scoots
11-05-2018, 08:31 PM
i think now we're talking about a lot of political factors as well. Gets way too messy and complicated.

Yeah, but it doesn't have to be perfect, it can be adjusted yearly. Right now there can be no parity for a number of factors, but most people focus on the cap when the location of the team is likely a bigger factor a lot of the time.

MILLERHIGHLIFE
11-05-2018, 08:47 PM
Winning beats all. Then ya get ring chasers for dirt cheap. But yeah location helps sometimes. Depends on the era. Now days its friends pairing up or winning ring chasers.

FlashBolt
11-06-2018, 01:58 AM
I know it man. I would love to be near the water if we moved there, and perhaps north of Portland more. But, it would depend on when we went (daughter is 19 months).

You are right though, you can seriously get a great house in Maine for under 200k.

$200k won't even buy you a damn shed in NYC.


Winning beats all. Then ya get ring chasers for dirt cheap. But yeah location helps sometimes. Depends on the era. Now days its friends pairing up or winning ring chasers.

LeBron tried that in Cleveland. Wade and Bosh pretty much said no. Why Cleveland when Bulls and Miami were better cities? I'm guessing lots of players have tried it before but really, if a large city with beautiful weather, geography, food, girls come up to you and you're making $35-$40 million per year while being in your early to mid 20's, do you really want to be stuck in good ol'e OKC or Memphis? I'd bet the majority are not going to do that.