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Twolves88
10-27-2018, 01:54 AM
The general NBA game has evolved a ton since the late 90's and early 2000's. The big men are no longer the focus of the team. The guard and 3 point shooting has widely taken over the NBA. We have teams like Houston chucking up 3 pointers at a incredible rate. Back in 07 when I graduated high school it was more about the big man and his ability to draw the double team to get the guard the open shot.

While I understand that high scoring games creates more fan viewership it also seems like the game has become a bit stale. The general prevailing best strategy is to avoid the mid range jump shot and rather focus on high probability plays such as points in the paint or 3 point shots. It does not seem that possessions are valued as much as in the past due to the pace of game.

To me it doesn't seem like there is as much cutting and backdoors and general ball movement compared to years past. This last season when I watch teams it seems to be who can get a better look at the 3 ball rather then who can get the best available shot.

Am I wrong or has basketball become overly simplified? What happened to defense and the spurs teams of years past were passing and cutting were instrumental to offenses.

Should the NBA implement rules so defensive players have a bit more ability to play to their strengths?

IKnowHoops
10-27-2018, 03:46 AM
Love the NBA. But if you are a Wolves fan, and all you watch is the Wolves...basketball sucks bad.

Twolves88
10-27-2018, 04:00 AM
Love the NBA. But if you are a Wolves fan, and all you watch is the Wolves...basketball sucks bad.

Its not that. It doesn't seem like any defensive pride exists. Also it seems to be more YMCA like were the first person to get open gets to jack up a 3 or go in for a dunk.

What happened to the art of passing ball, ball movement, and not just the routine boring pick a role between a wing and a power forward.

Heediot
10-27-2018, 05:21 AM
Personally, I don't mind high scoring or low scoring games. Either or is fine. Good defense is great to watch just as much as good offense to me.

Today's nba is too watered down on offense. Like OP said possessions are less valuable. The no touch rules got even worse in the off-season, so getting to your spots and getting cleaner looks got a bit easier.

It is what it is, I'll just make the most of whatever rules is allowed, just wanting more balanced rules where everyone has a chance to shine equally or impact the game equally.

ewing
10-27-2018, 07:31 AM
The rules are softer and so are the players even without the rules bc society as started sissifying at a faster and faster rate . Itís still basketball but so is the WNBA


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

buckalis
10-27-2018, 08:40 AM
I believe the rules have little to do with fans enjoying the game...

Modern basketball has moved from the "player's ability to attack the rim", to the "create the open shot" kind....

It therefore now is more of a coach, team work and tactics game, where the team that creates more open shots and minimizes the opponent's opportunity to do the same, wins!

Fans that understand and appreciate basketball tactics, enjoy the game more...Fans that are watching the game expecting some star players to mimic "Jordan on the floor" are seeing much less of it and thus enjoy the game less.

Chronz
10-27-2018, 10:10 AM
You hit it dead on the nail op. I was beginning to feel this way around the time you graduated, you can only imagine my hatred for this game now as the problem of homogenization has been exasperated. Styles used to make fights, watching Duncan feast on the blocks while the suns still scored 120 with 7sol offense was fun af. Watching the jazz run their flex vs tmac n yaos pnr/post play was fun.

Positions are dying because the skill is being lost , you don't need as much creativity or strength. Its like a game meant for children before they get to mans bball only we never went back and reinstated handchecking and what not.

buckalis
10-27-2018, 10:44 AM
The order to Giannis from coach Bud, is clearly: "if you can finnish it, do it! If you can't, then assist it..." It still requires an exeptional player to either finish it, or pass an exceptional assist... We now have learned that much from Lenron's game that revolutionized what a great player should look like... haven't we?

It's just that many players of the past and as many today that could and can have a more or less "Jordan like" game, but players like Lebron or Giannis that can maximize a top coach's tactitics are still too rare to find and then that a top coach combined with a great player, becomes a necessity as to end up with a top team that plays great basketball...

JAZZNC
10-27-2018, 11:20 AM
I do find it a little less interesting than before. As already stated the big man/post play is almost gone. And what aggravates me the most is how the value of a posession is basically zero. I hate all the horrible shots I see in every game. It doesn't matter who has it or if there has been only 1 pass and 18sec left on the shot clock if you're open, throw up a 3. I just see so many shots that are way to early in the clock and often times with nobody even remotely in position for an attempt at an offensive rebound. I know it's just how it is now but it can be frustrating to watch at times. There's also way too many guys who have never been told they ain't ****. All these new NBA players have been told how awesome they are since they were kids and it's no wonder you have the Wiggins/KATs/Durants of the world. Soft as hell.

Cal827
10-27-2018, 12:52 PM
They're promoting offense and making the game go faster because of their low-attention span fanbase. They saw how some of the other sports struggled mightly with low scoring games and are adapting likewise

Look at the NHL.... before the strike, so many games ended 1-0, 2-1, 2-0 etc, with neither teams getting much offense. They worried about their base being disinterested and post strike, produced some new rules that helped increase scoring... and whether related or not, the NHL has been pretty much booming post strike.

NFL.... They've added a bunch of new rules that support offensive play... That's why when the Seahawks had their defensive dominance for 3 years, it was as shocker to everyone (great to the people who value strong defense).

Baseballs currently in a war between the old folks of the game and the newer generations staying interested... many teams have lost huge amounts of fans over the past few years, and not all of it is related to record necessarily.

As most of us have been fans for over a decade, I think most of us remember the defensive games. I was at the Raptors game yesterday, and in the middle of the third, both teams had 80 points. At that point, I remember the games in the 90s where scores at the end of the game would be like that. For most of us, we don't mind those games, because we love watching defense lock down games as well. But offense is what draws the fans and the money. For example, this is why guys like Jordan/Kobe/Magic/Bird/Johnson are more spoken about, over defensive beasts like Pippen/Hakeem/Duncan (Not to say the guys previous were bad defensively as some of them were great too, but their main focus was how they took over games with shooting). It's also post guys are consistently ignored these days.

buckalis
10-27-2018, 02:14 PM
Mods should PIN this thread up the top and leave it there for ever...

Scoots
10-27-2018, 02:41 PM
I think the amended travel rule which was intended to help players get to the rim is being used to get open shots outside and I don't like that. If they changed it to be gather and 2 steps in the paint, but gather and 1.5 everywhere else I'd be for that.

The freedom of movement rules are not bad the way they were explained, but in execution they are bad, and I think that more than anything has the players not playing defense almost at all.

The pace of play has people going back to their fundamentals and in transition guys are running back to the paint, then locating their man, the issue is their man is probably taking a wide open 3 already.

Any game where defense isn't played bothers me.

IKnowHoops
10-27-2018, 02:49 PM
Its not that. It doesn't seem like any defensive pride exists. Also it seems to be more YMCA like were the first person to get open gets to jack up a 3 or go in for a dunk.

What happened to the art of passing ball, ball movement, and not just the routine boring pick a role between a wing and a power forward.

Watch a Lakers game...all they do is pass and run. Itís fun basketball.

Scoots
10-27-2018, 02:56 PM
Watch a Lakers game...all they do is pass and run. Itís fun basketball.

No D, no fun.

FlashBolt
10-27-2018, 03:31 PM
Problem is analytics. Possessions matter less when the analytics tell you to jack as many threes in a game while speeding up the pace. Defense is tough to play when the offense is so random. I still enjoy watching some teams but yeah, the scoring is out of control. I have to stop watching OKC games as well. If you thought basketball was "boring" watch an OKC game..

IndyRealist
10-27-2018, 04:03 PM
Problem is analytics. Possessions matter less when the analytics tell you to jack as many threes in a game while speeding up the pace. Defense is tough to play when the offense is so random. I still enjoy watching some teams but yeah, the scoring is out of control. I have to stop watching OKC games as well. If you thought basketball was "boring" watch an OKC game..

Then you grossly misunderstand analytics. Analytics are used to determine the highest value shot, period. I don't doubt that there are poorly run organizations that think that way, but those aren't good teams. Possessions are all important in analytics. If you think otherwise you need to do more reading.

Defense is tough to play because the NBA has legislated against it. Looking at the ballhandler the wrong way is a blocking foul anymore. The result is the playground style you see today.

IKnowHoops
10-27-2018, 04:09 PM
No D, no fun.

Lonzo is probably the best defensive pg in basketball. Had like 5 steals against the nuggets as was picking guys up full court press. Havenít s en that on to many other teams. JaVale leads the league in blocks. They are coming together on defense and itís getting better. They are a young team but they are committed to defense and itís getting better.

buckalis
10-27-2018, 04:18 PM
IMO, you guys spot the difference between past and presence right, but you translate it wrong from the fan's / observer's POV...

IMO, everything in the NBA changed back in 1996 in the Atlanta 1996 World championship when US as beaten twice at home by Serbia and Argentina and then it changed again in the 2004 world championship semifinals, when the Greeks threw more than 100 in a 40 mins game...

It is too lengthy an analysis to put here, but since no trolls can participate in this conversation, you guys know enough out of basketball tactics as to figure it out what it meant for the US team to "eat" more than 100 in 40 mins them playing the "old fashion" American defense and not being able to reply...

What followed is known... Coach Pops dominated NBA by inducing and adjusting all he learned from his friends coach Ivcovich and Obradovic (Obradovic was Serbia's coach back in Atlanta) in the American culture of how a player should play... and that combined with Lebron's revolutionary playing style of which the rising coincided in time with coach Pops, had an immediate effect in the NBA style of playing, that changed everything as far as tactics to winis concerned...

IMO combined with the basketball knowledge I have, this all has nothing or very little to do with rules... it's all about how one wins...

buckalis
10-27-2018, 04:32 PM
Common mods, PIN this topic, so that we can get rid of trolls and have proper conversations here....

FlashBolt
10-27-2018, 04:40 PM
Then you grossly misunderstand analytics. Analytics are used to determine the highest value shot, period. I don't doubt that there are poorly run organizations that think that way, but those aren't good teams. Possessions are all important in analytics. If you think otherwise you need to do more reading.

Defense is tough to play because the NBA has legislated against it. Looking at the ballhandler the wrong way is a blocking foul anymore. The result is the playground style you see today.

Woah, tough guy over here told me to do more reading. It's got a lot to do with a variety of factors. I just threw analytics in there because too many teams are overanalyzing the game based on statistics. Tone down your language, sir.

FlashBolt
10-27-2018, 04:41 PM
Lonzo is probably the best defensive pg in basketball. Had like 5 steals against the nuggets as was picking guys up full court press. Havenít s en that on to many other teams. JaVale leads the league in blocks. They are coming together on defense and itís getting better. They are a young team but they are committed to defense and itís getting better.

Lakers defense collapse when Javale is out. I think with Javale, they are one of the better defensive teams. Once Javale is out, they're undersized and LeBron isn't going to play much defense anyways so it becomes a 3v5 at times.

Heediot
10-27-2018, 04:43 PM
IMO, you guys spot the difference between past and presence right, but you translate it wrong from the fan's / observer's POV...

IMO, everything in the NBA changed back in 1996 in the Atlanta 1996 World championship when US as beaten twice at home by Serbia and Argentina and then it changed again in the 2004 world championship semifinals, when the Greeks threw more than 100 in a 40 mins game...

It is too lengthy an analysis to put here, but since no trolls can participate in this conversation, you guys know enough out of basketball tactics as to figure it out what it meant for the US team to "eat" more than 100 in 40 mins them playing the "old fashion" American defense and not being able to reply...

What followed is known... Coach Pops dominated NBA by inducing and adjusting all he learned from his friends coach Ivcovich and Obradovic (Obradovic was Serbia's coach back in Atlanta) in the American culture of how a player should play... and that combined with Lebron's revolutionary playing style of which the rising coincided in time with coach Pops, had an immediate effect in the NBA style of playing, that changed everything as far as tactics to winis concerned...

IMO combined with the basketball knowledge I have, this all has nothing or very little to do with rules... it's all about how one wins...

You probably mean 2000 or 2002. USA was still too dominant in 96.

As far as european ball. The euroleague averages out to roughly 4 points per minute a game by the end of a season. In the domestic leagues the scoring is higher though.

It's a combination of rules, letting big guys camp in the paint and importance of game. Every euroleague game matters so they tend to go harder and try more on defense. Defenders can get away with more in europe as well.

For sure Europe helped the game evolve, but Bigs are still a premium over there, even if the are doubled in zones, the attention they draw generates better looks and ball movement. Ball handlers in general are still more dominant over there. but the problem is any dominant big overseas tend to be swiped away by the nba.

Even so in the first 2 rounds of the nba playoffs lately, defense is **** as well, so it might be more then just trying harder when it maters.

ldawg
10-27-2018, 04:44 PM
OKC canít shoot and they are yet to win a game, thatís why they may be boring to you. I will say I do enjoy the uptempo style more. IMO it seem like it even out the playing field.

FlashBolt
10-27-2018, 04:48 PM
OKC canít shoot and they are yet to win a game, thatís why they may be boring to you. I will say I do enjoy the uptempo style more. IMO it seem like it even out the playing field. I think itís the same

It's not about winning games. They were boring last year as well. It's got to do with our coach not knowing how to get others involved and simply relying on Westbrook too much. Donovan is known as a great recruiter but it's difficult in the NBA level to recruit when you've got zero accolades to your name. He's an average coach with a poor understanding of what our team needs. We can't shoot, can't score, and take the worst shots in the league. It's gotten to the point where watching more of the games will turn you less into a fan of the team.

ldawg
10-27-2018, 04:59 PM
If Okc add some shooting they will be ok. Look at Rockets they got the shooting now they canít defend. So teams are actually playing defense they just taking out the rough stuff.

ldawg
10-27-2018, 05:07 PM
Yes the game change. From the slow lumbering big men. Guys were just getting contracts because they were big with no skills. The game still have room for big men but they have to be able to shoot and move well. Look at 76ers big man heís not a pine rider.

CityofTreez
10-27-2018, 05:23 PM
Basketball is basketball, and there is that position of change in everything. I still watch every game like I did when my team was good, ALOT more shooting, which I donít have a problem with tell you the truth.

Biggest gripe is the players *****ing/fighting/entitled egos that tune me out

buckalis
10-27-2018, 05:30 PM
You probably mean 2000 or 2002. USA was still too dominant in 96.

As far as european ball. The euroleague averages out to roughly 4 points per minute a game by the end of a season. In the domestic leagues the scoring is higher though.

It's a combination of rules, letting big guys camp in the paint and importance of game. Every euroleague game matters so they tend to go harder and try more on defense. Defenders can get away with more in europe as well.

For sure Europe helped the game evolve, but Bigs are still a premium over there, even if the are doubled in zones, the attention they draw generates better looks and ball movement. Ball handlers in general are still more dominant over there. but the problem is any dominant big overseas tend to be swiped away by the nba.

Even so in the first 2 rounds of the nba playoffs lately, defense is **** as well, so it might be more then just trying harder when it maters.

I think you may have misunderstood me now... I'm not talking about convergence... Convergence was inevitable to happen, as it was inevitable that the NBA would get the best players out of al the leagues around the world due to the salaries and would end up being the premier league...

All I'm saying is that the rules have not made the game less interesting (IMO), but tactics has being changed, so that the winning team "throws" more than it "eats"... If it takes less defense to do it, it doesn't matter if you win scoring more against the oponent at the end...

Basketball is the highest score game out of all after all... and as with all pro games, one plays it to win... It was inevitable that tactics and coaching would affect the players style of playing and then... fans must understand the "new style" of the game and strategical tactics better, so that they can enjoy the game more... but it has little or nothing to do with rules anyway... It's just that understanding tactics is more difficult, which makes some fans enjoy the game less because they are less involved...

The more the crowed understands what strategic brilliance and innovation happens on the floor for a team to win, the more they will enjoy the (new) game... that's all I'm saying and call the background that caused it as to support my argument... that's all...

IndyRealist
10-27-2018, 05:35 PM
Woah, tough guy over here told me to do more reading. It's got a lot to do with a variety of factors. I just threw analytics in there because too many teams are overanalyzing the game based on statistics. Tone down your language, sir.

You misunderstand what the analytics are saying if you think possessions don't matter and the goal is to jack up as many 3s as possible. But all you got out of that was that I said you need to do more reading.

Heediot
10-27-2018, 05:42 PM
I think you may have misunderstood me now... I'm not talking about convergence... Convergence was inevitable to happen, as it was inevitable that the NBA would get the best players out of al the leagues around the world due to the salaries and would end up being the premier league...

All I'm saying is that the rules have not made the game less interesting (IMO), but tactics has being changed, so that the winning team "throws" more than it "eats"... If it takes less defense to do it, it doesn't matter if you win scoring more against the oponent at the end...

Basketball is the highest score game out of all after all... and as with all pro games, one plays it to win... It was inevitable that tactics and coaching would affect the players style of playing and then... fans must understand the "new style" of the game and strategical tactics better, so that they can enjoy the game more... but it has little or nothing to do with rules anyway... It's just that understanding tactics is more difficult, which makes some fans enjoy the game less because they are less involved...

The more the crowed understands what strategic brilliance and innovation happens on the floor for a team to win, the more they will enjoy the (new) game... that's all I'm saying and call the background that caused it as to support my argument... that's all...

I think some rules do matter. There has been a progress in style of play, but allowing true zones makes lanes ore clogged and driving lanes harder to come by. Guys would still be able to drive but they would have to think more about it and pick their spots. Not saying it would go back to 90's score, college scores or even euroleague scores, but scoring would go down as you would actually need skill other then just driving to the rim off of athleticism and or size combination to set up the defense.

If you watch some of the greek national team games, Giannis has some issues when lanes are clogged and isn't nearly as dominant, because the guys jumper was broken. It's harder for less skilled players to manipulate defenses, and it takes more athleticism and balls to drive for guys who wouldn't have it as easy now.

Right now perimeter players have it easy with how free flowing, no toch and so little lane clogging.

IndyRealist
10-27-2018, 05:43 PM
Hereís a piece of advice to coaches just diving into analytics: If your eyes and the data agree on something, it is likely true. If your eyes and the data disagree, donít blindly trust either. Attempt to analyze why the numbers do not match up with what you have seen.
http://team.fastmodelsports.com/2017/11/30/new-era-basketball-stats-balancing-analytics-eye-test/

buckalis
10-27-2018, 06:02 PM
I think some rules do matter. There has been a progress in style of play, but allowing true zones makes lanes ore clogged and driving lanes harder to come by. Guys would still be able to drive but they would have to think more about it and pick their spots. Not saying it would go back to 90's score, college scores or even euroleague scores, but scoring would go down as you would actually need skill other then just driving to the rim off of athleticism and or size combination to set up the defense.

If you watch some of the greek national team games, Giannis has some issues when lanes are clogged and isn't nearly as dominant, because the guys jumper was broken. It's harder for less skilled players to manipulate defenses, and it takes more athleticism and balls to drive for guys who wouldn't have it as easy now.

Right now perimeter players have it easy with how free flowing, no toch and so little lane clogging.

Ohhh common now....
I have seen all of Giannis games with the Greek team... Giannis hasn't had an official game with the team for two and aa half years now... he couldn't be dominant before that... could he?

Hopefully, he will be there next summer for the world championship and then we'll see if he is dominant or not... all we know up to now, is that the Greek coaching team DID set up the team around Giannis last season, before the Eurocap games, but Giannis was called back by the Bucks... The Greek teams was never set around Giannis before, so that we can judge if he would be dominant or not...

P.S. You understood the name "Buckalis" I use, ...didn't you?

WaDe03
10-27-2018, 06:04 PM
Itís fine, itíll be better next year when the league is wide open with KD leaving the Warriors. Basketball is on the come up and will take over as Americaís game. It has the biggest stars, most drama, etc.

I also think it depends on who your favorite team is. Small market teams may not be as fun because they can never attract big name talent so you feel thereís never a chance.

IndyRealist
10-27-2018, 06:26 PM
Itís fine, itíll be better next year when the league is wide open with KD leaving the Warriors. Basketball is on the come up and will take over as Americaís game. It has the biggest stars, most drama, etc.

I also think it depends on who your favorite team is. Small market teams may not be as fun because they can never attract big name talent so you feel thereís never a chance.

NBA basketball will never be America's game. "Middle America" finds the NBA too "urban". Yes, those are code words. Whenever I go home to Indiana and talk Pacers, invariably someone will refer to them as "thugs". Also a code word. And Indiana is a basketball state.

buckalis
10-27-2018, 06:32 PM
NBA basketball will never be America's game. "Middle America" finds the NBA too "urban". Yes, those are code words. Whenever I go home to Indiana and talk Pacers, invariably someone will refer to them as "thugs". Also a code word. And Indiana is a basketball state.
I have to remind you, that there is a recent "silent rule" here, that states: "we never reply to trolls"... let them burn out until the mods decide to ban them.... please respect it...

Scoots
10-27-2018, 06:38 PM
Lonzo is probably the best defensive pg in basketball. Had like 5 steals against the nuggets as was picking guys up full court press. Havenít s en that on to many other teams. JaVale leads the league in blocks. They are coming together on defense and itís getting better. They are a young team but they are committed to defense and itís getting better.

Lonzo has potential but it's not always evident. A good individual defender is not enough to call the team's defense good.

They have been better the last couple games.

FlashBolt
10-27-2018, 07:43 PM
You misunderstand what the analytics are saying if you think possessions don't matter and the goal is to jack up as many 3s as possible. But all you got out of that was that I said you need to do more reading.

Analytics involve many factors and there isn't a perfect variable. Teams are overanalyzing thinking the way to play is by jacking up threes, playing a quicker pace, and to not shoot midrange jumpers. It's funny you think you have the proper formula for analytics or something. Maybe you should be employed for it considering it's a growing field. Is what I am saying wrong? Defense is tougher to play because every team is playing at such a quick pace to where it's tough to set your defense up. NBA may have made it more difficult to play defense but so has the offense. And FYI, no, what I got from your post is you thinking you know the solution but all I did was find your name in some dating site so please tone down your language or the ladies (or men) may not like you that much.

FlashBolt
10-27-2018, 07:44 PM
NBA basketball will never be America's game. "Middle America" finds the NBA too "urban". Yes, those are code words. Whenever I go home to Indiana and talk Pacers, invariably someone will refer to them as "thugs". Also a code word. And Indiana is a basketball state.

So because Indiana says so, it'll never be America's game. Lmao, what? Indiana doesn't speak for America.

Twolves88
10-27-2018, 07:47 PM
Good thread so far. Very little trolling. I enjoyed reading every response so far.

I just wish that defenders could "lock down" their man and that the rotations of defense were more meaningful. Scoring is ok but when it comes down to who can simply shoot at a higher wide open 3 point percent then we have an issue. Literally no reward exists for learning to shoot the mid range game. Players like Sam Cassell would be considered obsolete in modern NBA games.

I like ball movement and scoring but I feel like defenders should be given a chance. Scoring is flashy "locking down" the teams best player like Ron Artest did or Bruce Bowen did was very valuable and a skill set that is pretty much non existent.

Do you guys feel like if the NBA season was shortened to 56 games that player effort on defense would increase? Is the lack of defense due to the long NBA season? Or is it based upon the rules and current methods of conventional games.

Obviously owners would NEVER shorten the NBA season due to profits and the nba's best interest is to be high scoring. However, I feel like I'm watching my little brothers NBA game on NBA 2k were you make a 7 foot center with all his stats dumped into 3 point shooting and you sit him on the perimeter and watch him shoot over shaq all game long.

I love that players tend to play at a higher level of skill on offense but something has to be done on defense ot make the current league watchable.

FlashBolt
10-27-2018, 07:52 PM
Good thread so far. Very little trolling. I enjoyed reading every response so far.

I just wish that defenders could "lock down" their man and that the rotations of defense were more meaningful. Scoring is ok but when it comes down to who can simply shoot at a higher wide open 3 point percent then we have an issue. Literally no reward exists for learning to shoot the mid range game. Players like Sam Cassell would be considered obsolete in modern NBA games.

I like ball movement and scoring but I feel like defenders should be given a chance. Scoring is flashy "locking down" the teams best player like Ron Artest did or Bruce Bowen did was very valuable and a skill set that is pretty much non existent.

Do you guys feel like if the NBA season was shortened to 56 games that player effort on defense would increase? Is the lack of defense due to the long NBA season? Or is it based upon the rules and current methods of conventional games.

Obviously owners would NEVER shorten the NBA season due to profits and the nba's best interest is to be high scoring. However, I feel like I'm watching my little brothers NBA game on NBA 2k were you make a 7 foot center with all his stats dumped into 3 point shooting and you sit him on the perimeter and watch him shoot over shaq all game long.

I love that players tend to play at a higher level of skill on offense but something has to be done on defense ot make the current league watchable.

Still way too early into the season. There's no chance these guys keep up this scoring pace when injuries and other causes take their role. Just gotta wait a bit and see what happens. Defense should tighten up when things are more familiar.

IndyRealist
10-27-2018, 09:26 PM
Analytics involve many factors and there isn't a perfect variable. Teams are overanalyzing thinking the way to play is by jacking up threes, playing a quicker pace, and to not shoot midrange jumpers. It's funny you think you have the proper formula for analytics or something. Maybe you should be employed for it considering it's a growing field. Is what I am saying wrong? Defense is tougher to play because every team is playing at such a quick pace to where it's tough to set your defense up. NBA may have made it more difficult to play defense but so has the offense. And FYI, no, what I got from your post is you thinking you know the solution but all I did was find your name in some dating site so please tone down your language or the ladies (or men) may not like you that much.
Your knowledge of analytics seems to be limited to to uninformed opinions of ESPN talking heads trying to explain something they themselves don't understand. It's the blind leading the blind.

Hawkeye15
10-28-2018, 12:59 PM
for me personally, yes, it's much more boring. Teams just run up and down and jack 3's. My team is terribly boring to watch, which doesn't help. The Warriors have nullified any suspense to the season, so it's basically like re-reading a book that I have already read, and know the ending.

Defenders need to be able to use their hands again, hard fouls need to exist so we can separate the men from the boys, and youth levels need more development, not AAU and pick up essentially.

I have also entered the "better back in my day" age, I catch myself all the time, and there is some truth to it-because as we age, we care less about things like sports, so we resort to pretending it was better back when we were younger, when the only difference is, we had less responsibilities, and a lot more time to care about a bunch of men dressing up to get sweaty with each other.

Hawkeye15
10-28-2018, 01:02 PM
NBA basketball will never be America's game. "Middle America" finds the NBA too "urban". Yes, those are code words. Whenever I go home to Indiana and talk Pacers, invariably someone will refer to them as "thugs". Also a code word. And Indiana is a basketball state.

Indiana also has more racism than most places I know haha.

But sure, my Dad, just like 3 days ago, used word for word your terms here. As soon as the tattoos started, he was out.

The biggest reason the NFL will never be passed, is we are animals. We still like to see men try and basically kill each other, deep down. It's gross, yes. But it's animalistic, and that is what we are. It's also 1 game a week, which helps rope in women to be honest. Most women just can't get into a sport that plays multiple times a week for 8 months. The NBA has done an amazing job getting where it is now, and as an organization should be very proud.

LaVar Ball
10-28-2018, 03:26 PM
The whole versatile 3 and D guy and small ball 3 pt shooting is great and all, but it's taken away from the toughness of the game we saw in the 80/90s and early 2000s. That's when it was fun to watch.

Scoots
10-28-2018, 03:54 PM
The whole versatile 3 and D guy and small ball 3 pt shooting is great and all, but it's taken away from the toughness of the game we saw in the 80/90s and early 2000s. That's when it was fun to watch.

So fun viewership was way down and they changed the rules to get viewers back ... while now viewership is at an all time high.

Twolves88
10-28-2018, 11:07 PM
So fun viewership was way down and they changed the rules to get viewers back ... while now viewership is at an all time high.

It's not so much it more so is that the NBA appeals to the casual fan. The casual fan wants to see 3 pointers and dunks. The traditional fan(those who played the game or understand niches of the game) want to see a more diverse set of skills. For example, the jazz with their flex offense vs the 7 seconds or less suns or the spurs team oriented game. Now we have fast past dunks and 3 point shooting. Fans seek the big plays and the nba is delivering that. However, when this becomes the norm over time it may turn off fans who want to see more and more excitement.

Defense is long gone in the NBA its dunks and 3 pointers now.

FlashBolt
10-28-2018, 11:50 PM
Your knowledge of analytics seems to be limited to to uninformed opinions of ESPN talking heads trying to explain something they themselves don't understand. It's the blind leading the blind.

Daryl Morey spends countless time developing new forms of analytical evidence to "win" games. It's funny you think analytics is singular. People get paid a salary to work in this field. What I do know is the analytics have led to an explosion of quick offenses into a three point shot. That's a fact. I'm glad you read so much into it but you should tone your language down. No need to be demeaning in your comments. None of us here work for an NBA team. We're just fans making a comment.

Scoots
10-28-2018, 11:54 PM
It's not so much it more so is that the NBA appeals to the casual fan. The casual fan wants to see 3 pointers and dunks. The traditional fan(those who played the game or understand niches of the game) want to see a more diverse set of skills. For example, the jazz with their flex offense vs the 7 seconds or less suns or the spurs team oriented game. Now we have fast past dunks and 3 point shooting. Fans seek the big plays and the nba is delivering that. However, when this becomes the norm over time it may turn off fans who want to see more and more excitement.

Defense is long gone in the NBA its dunks and 3 pointers now.

Defense was pretty poor in the 80s and 90s too. And the rules changes were in part because the "defense" was being played outside the rules.

I don't particularly care for the chucking of the 3s mentality that seems to be spreading, but I do remember the past and it wasn't exactly all rosy then either. There were some dreadfully ugly games when everybody was fouling everybody on every possession and the idea of good offense was backing an opponent down one on one for 15 seconds.

FlashBolt
10-28-2018, 11:54 PM
It's not so much it more so is that the NBA appeals to the casual fan. The casual fan wants to see 3 pointers and dunks. The traditional fan(those who played the game or understand niches of the game) want to see a more diverse set of skills. For example, the jazz with their flex offense vs the 7 seconds or less suns or the spurs team oriented game. Now we have fast past dunks and 3 point shooting. Fans seek the big plays and the nba is delivering that. However, when this becomes the norm over time it may turn off fans who want to see more and more excitement.

Defense is long gone in the NBA its dunks and 3 pointers now.

Casual fans are the biggest market out there.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_stats.html

Pace is the outlier here. Teams are just playing quicker. That 14 second off an offensive rebound doesn't help. I'm not a fan of it, honestly.

FlashBolt
10-28-2018, 11:56 PM
Defense was pretty poor in the 80s and 90s too. And the rules changes were in part because the "defense" was being played outside the rules.

I don't particularly care for the chucking of the 3s mentality that seems to be spreading, but I do remember the past and it wasn't exactly all rosy then either. There were some dreadfully ugly games when everybody was fouling everybody on every possession and the idea of good offense was backing an opponent down one on one for 15 seconds.

Love Barkley but the thought of the guy dribbling the ball to take an ugly two point shot isn't something I'm particularly interested in watching again. Every decade has their own issues and every year, we're still here as fans. Love the game regardless.

Scoots
10-29-2018, 12:03 AM
Casual fans are the biggest market out there.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_stats.html

Pace is the outlier here. Teams are just playing quicker. That 14 second off an offensive rebound doesn't help. I'm not a fan of it, honestly.

Imagine out bad it must have been to watch in the late 50s early 60s when not only were they going at breakneck speed but they couldn't shoot well either. In general through the history of the NBA the pace has trended down. They change rules occasionally to speed things up, but they don't work much. Now the success of teams shooting more from outside, moving the ball more, prioritizing fast break offense, has spread to most of the league and has gone along with a rule change to speed up double offensive possessions and the result is a track meet at a far higher rate than recent history would suggest is sustainable.

I think things will slow some over this year, and some defensive coach will make "the" adjustment which will cause offenses to adjust down in speed again.

I just hope the officials can get more consistent so we can see what players who don't expect a whistle constantly will play like.

Scoots
10-29-2018, 12:05 AM
Love Barkley but the thought of the guy dribbling the ball to take an ugly two point shot isn't something I'm particularly interested in watching again. Every decade has their own issues and every year, we're still here as fans. Love the game regardless.

Watching Mark Jackson do it to opposing PGs while 8 other guys watched was even less fun than Barkley.

FlashBolt
10-29-2018, 12:06 AM
Imagine out bad it must have been to watch in the late 50s early 60s when not only were they going at breakneck speed but they couldn't shoot well either. In general through the history of the NBA the pace has trended down. They change rules occasionally to speed things up, but they don't work much. Now the success of teams shooting more from outside, moving the ball more, prioritizing fast break offense, has spread to most of the league and has gone along with a rule change to speed up double offensive possessions and the result is a track meet at a far higher rate than recent history would suggest is sustainable.

I think things will slow some over this year, and some defensive coach will make "the" adjustment which will cause offenses to adjust down in speed again.

I just hope the officials can get more consistent so we can see what players who don't expect a whistle constantly will play like.

I'm pretty sure it was like this early into last season as well. Takes time to get used to things. Injuries, fatigue, etc., should come into play very soon. Teams just took a hard look at what the Rockets were doing and have made that a focal point. If it works, it works.

ewing
10-29-2018, 06:50 AM
Watching Mark Jackson do it to opposing PGs while 8 other guys watched was even less fun than Barkley.

I liked little guys that posted up. Little guys like Jackson who were great passers doing it was even more interesting


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Hawkeye15
10-29-2018, 09:29 AM
So fun viewership was way down and they changed the rules to get viewers back ... while now viewership is at an all time high.

well the NBA is a business (I think people know that, but hardcore fans hate it), so they had to pander to the fairweather fans. meaning, scoring needed to go up, physical play needed to go down, and players needed to be marketed as larger than life. When there are teams like GS, it helps the league. When the Lakers, or Knicks are great, it helps the league. On top of that, there are so many ways to watch now, it inflates numbers a bit.

No doubt the NBA has done exactly what they should have, but the purity of basketball is missing from today's game. But, for 80% of the fans watching the NBA, they wouldn't know the difference anyways...

Hawkeye15
10-29-2018, 09:30 AM
I liked little guys that posted up. Little guys like Jackson who were great passers doing it was even more interesting


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I miss me some Rod Strickland top of the key post ups

"toss me the rock so I can go old man on this fool and hit a 14 footer"

Hawkeye15
10-29-2018, 09:32 AM
Defense was pretty poor in the 80s and 90s too. And the rules changes were in part because the "defense" was being played outside the rules.

I don't particularly care for the chucking of the 3s mentality that seems to be spreading, but I do remember the past and it wasn't exactly all rosy then either. There were some dreadfully ugly games when everybody was fouling everybody on every possession and the idea of good offense was backing an opponent down one on one for 15 seconds.

The defense in the 80's is laughably overrated, but again, that time period would have been the death of the NBA had it not been for Magic/Bird, and the scoring uptick. Different time my man, think also of the ability to view the NBA. It was on like 2 channels, a few times a week haha

Hawkeye15
10-29-2018, 09:33 AM
Love Barkley but the thought of the guy dribbling the ball to take an ugly two point shot isn't something I'm particularly interested in watching again. Every decade has their own issues and every year, we're still here as fans. Love the game regardless.

Yeah those Rox years were the WORST. Let's let Barkley's fat *** go old man ball, and stick Pippen in the corner

Scoots
10-29-2018, 10:43 AM
I liked little guys that posted up. Little guys like Jackson who were great passers doing it was even more interesting

I don't remember him ever passing it out when he got a light little PG on him. But you preferred that offense to say the Spurs pace and space of 6 years ago?

Scoots
10-29-2018, 10:49 AM
well the NBA is a business (I think people know that, but hardcore fans hate it), so they had to pander to the fairweather fans. meaning, scoring needed to go up, physical play needed to go down, and players needed to be marketed as larger than life. When there are teams like GS, it helps the league. When the Lakers, or Knicks are great, it helps the league. On top of that, there are so many ways to watch now, it inflates numbers a bit.

No doubt the NBA has done exactly what they should have, but the purity of basketball is missing from today's game. But, for 80% of the fans watching the NBA, they wouldn't know the difference anyways...

1. The ways to watch, I think, don't inflate the numbers considering that it used to be you could see the games without paying for cable, now there are so many cord cutters that adding ways to watch was critical to get close to the old numbers.

2. Players from the 50s to the 80s say that the pace and passing of the current game is the way the game is supposed to be played and didn't like the grabbing, snake biting, and banging game of the 90s was where the game went wrong.

3. When analysts talk about 60% of shots coming from 3 being a target it does make me a little sick. I think this year more than any other has made it clear the court needs to get wider and the line has to move back a couple feet or maybe more.

Scoots
10-29-2018, 10:50 AM
I miss me some Rod Strickland top of the key post ups

"toss me the rock so I can go old man on this fool and hit a 14 footer"

Strickland was maybe the best finisher I've ever seen ... he didn't post guys up and bang them back with his butt so much as work them like Hakeem.

ewing
10-29-2018, 10:59 AM
I don't remember him ever passing it out when he got a light little PG on him. But you preferred that offense to say the Spurs pace and space of 6 years ago?


Mark would beg you to double so he could pass. Anyway, i prefer a game where the team playing the Spurs might go to a post up offense when that pace and space offense was clicking to try and break there momentum by slowing pace making sure the Spurs had to play against a set D etc. What i prefer is the variety

Hawkeye15
10-29-2018, 11:03 AM
1. The ways to watch, I think, don't inflate the numbers considering that it used to be you could see the games without paying for cable, now there are so many cord cutters that adding ways to watch was critical to get close to the old numbers.

2. Players from the 50s to the 80s say that the pace and passing of the current game is the way the game is supposed to be played and didn't like the grabbing, snake biting, and banging game of the 90s was where the game went wrong.

3. When analysts talk about 60% of shots coming from 3 being a target it does make me a little sick. I think this year more than any other has made it clear the court needs to get wider and the line has to move back a couple feet or maybe more.

I don't want the early 90's back, that wasn't basketball either. But I would love perimeter defenders to be able to touch guys, so we can stop watching 40 three's a game go up.

Allow perimeter defenders to use their body/hands. Problem literally solved.

Rivera
10-29-2018, 11:07 AM
I would believe the defense will tighten up come playoff time, for regular season, i dont mind teams running and gunning having fun

i want to see if this seasons scoring keeps going at these ridiculous rates

buckalis
10-29-2018, 11:16 AM
1. The ways to watch, I think, don't inflate the numbers considering that it used to be you could see the games without paying for cable, now there are so many cord cutters that adding ways to watch was critical to get close to the old numbers.

2. Players from the 50s to the 80s say that the pace and passing of the current game is the way the game is supposed to be played and didn't like the grabbing, snake biting, and banging game of the 90s was where the game went wrong.

3. When analysts talk about 60% of shots coming from 3 being a target it does make me a little sick. I think this year more than any other has made it clear the court needs to get wider and the line has to move back a couple feet or maybe more.

Widening the court and moving the 3pt line further back, it will cause even less defense played, if one looks to the Euroleague and the Olympics or the world cap games, where the court is narrower than the NBA and the 3pt line is nearer to the rim, the game is much more physical and the points scored are about 20% less... there are about 150 points scored on average for a 40mins game, while in the NBA its about 220 points scored on average, in a 48 mins game..

Perhaps a good idea would be to have common rules and court size as the rest of the world.

Hawkeye15
10-29-2018, 11:45 AM
Widening the court and moving the 3pt line further back, it will cause even less defense played, if one looks to the Euroleague and the Olympics or the world cap games, where the court is narrower than the NBA and the 3pt line is nearer to the rim, the game is much more physical and the points scored are about 20% less... there are about 150 points scored on average for a 40mins game, while in the NBA its about 220 points scored on average, in a 48 mins game..

Perhaps a good idea would be to have common rules and court size as the rest of the world.

they also allow perimeter defenders to use their hands/body in the Euroleague. They also don't eject/suspend you for breathing on a guy over there. The league has become way too sensitive when it comes to what they will and won't allow physically.

ewing
10-29-2018, 11:54 AM
they also allow perimeter defenders to use their hands/body in the Euroleague. They also don't eject/suspend you for breathing on a guy over there. The league has become way too sensitive when it comes to what they will and won't allow physically.

agreed

R. Johnson#3
10-29-2018, 12:07 PM
Iím not a fan of watching teams push the ball up the floor only to jack up a 3. Iím also not a fan of teams living and dying on the 3 point line. My biggest problem is with the foul calling though. There used to be a time where lanes wouldnít open up as much. If they did, chances were the attacking player was going to get fouled and hard. Now a days thereís lanes galore with defenders who arenít even able to touch an attacking player. The days of 90 something to 80 something scoring games are done. High scoring games can be fun but Iím more of a fan of those defensive battles where buckets are hard to come by.

Vinylman
10-29-2018, 12:19 PM
they also allow perimeter defenders to use their hands/body in the Euroleague. They also don't eject/suspend you for breathing on a guy over there. The league has become way too sensitive when it comes to what they will and won't allow physically.

They have to Ö it's what happens when player salaries get inflated at the top. you have to protect them more because injuries are devastating to the cap when the contracts are guaranteed. Especially when most teams are significantly over the cap.

R. Johnson#3
10-29-2018, 12:33 PM
They have to Ö it's what happens when player salaries get inflated at the top. you have to protect them more because injuries are devastating to the cap when the contracts are guaranteed. Especially when most teams are significantly over the cap.

The way teams used to protect their stars is by surrounding them with a few tough mother****ers.

buckalis
10-29-2018, 12:55 PM
they also allow perimeter defenders to use their hands/body in the Euroleague. They also don't eject/suspend you for breathing on a guy over there. The league has become way too sensitive when it comes to what they will and won't allow physically.
I agree on this, but you've changed the subject... you proposed to widen the court and to move the 3pt line as to bring the score down and I replied that it would have the opposite effect...

After all, the NBA moved the 3pt line away and widened the floor, so that defenses will open up and scoring would be higher in the first place...

ewing
10-29-2018, 01:08 PM
I agree on this, but you've changed the subject... you proposed to widen the court and to move the 3pt line as to bring the score down and I replied that it would have the opposite effect...

After all, the NBA moved the 3pt line away and widened the floor, so that defenses will open up and scoring would be higher in the first place...

that was Scoots who said that

buckalis
10-29-2018, 01:18 PM
They have to Ö it's what happens when player salaries get inflated at the top. you have to protect them more because injuries are devastating to the cap when the contracts are guaranteed. Especially when most teams are significantly over the cap.

Salaries have gone up, because the NBA wants to attract the best 450 players from all over the world... About 1/3rd or more of the players now are coming from overseas and they are payed far more than the respective 1/3 of the total salaries value... Only the ones that are not Americans and are in their rookie contracts are payed normal money out of the overseas players in the NBA... for example... Giannis, Delly and Ilyasova cost 42M to the Bucks and Maker is still on his rookie contract... The Raptors pay Ibaka & Val some 40M and Anunoby is still on his rookie contract...

buckalis
10-29-2018, 01:21 PM
that was Scoots who said that

Oh...right... but the quote was still on me speaking on a different subject. Nevermind, no harm done...

FlashBolt
10-29-2018, 01:22 PM
Salaries have gone up, because the NBA wants to attract the best 450 players from all over the world... About 1/3rd or more of the players now are coming from overseas and they are payed far more than the respective 1/3 of the total salaries value... Only the ones that are not Americans and are in their rookie contracts are payed normal money out of the overseas players in the NBA... for example... Giannis, Delly and Ilyasova cost 42M to the Bucks and Maker is still on his rookie contract... The Raptors pay Ibaka & Val some 40M and Anunoby is still on his rookie contract...

that's not why the salaries have gone up. The game is just increasingly popular. NBA is the beneficiary of a game that knows how to market their players and also an American sport that can become a global behemoth. owners and players are happy because they're all making money.

Wrigheyes4MVP
10-29-2018, 01:33 PM
Don't hate the player, hate the game.

You can't blame teams for trying to gain a competitive advantage with the rules that are in place. If you want to see more defense, then the NBA has to adjust it's rules accordingly.

Also, the truth is that shooters have evolved and are far better. That's the other aspect of this. It's simple math... 3 counts more than 2. And there are so many good outside shooters these days that it makes sense for a lot of teams to jack up a bunch of 3's.

Vinylman
10-29-2018, 01:39 PM
that's not why the salaries have gone up. The game is just increasingly popular. NBA is the beneficiary of a game that knows how to market their players and also an American sport that can become a global behemoth. owners and players are happy because they're all making money.

why do you even respond to him? his posts are preposterous on there face.

Hawkeye15
10-29-2018, 01:50 PM
They have to Ö it's what happens when player salaries get inflated at the top. you have to protect them more because injuries are devastating to the cap when the contracts are guaranteed. Especially when most teams are significantly over the cap.

Sure, but as I alluded to already, hardcore fans don't care about the business side of the NBA. At all. So I don't care if LeBron James gets hurt, anymore than I care if a 14th man gets hurt. And as RJ stated, guys like Charles Oakley were employed back in the day to regulate. You went after one of their stars, well now you get to deal with the muscle.

Long story short, as they have developed into the current NBA, the game of basketball has changed, for the worse in most hardcore fans eyes. Each year, the need to mentally get through adversity lessens, because challenges lessen physically. Someone like Steph Curry, we have seen how frustrated he gets with physical contact, but since it's not allowed, he dominates. I can guarantee you, Curry would not be the all world player he is 20 years ago, when perimeter players would have been able to grab, push, and pull him. But there are also plenty of players that would have been just fine with the extended contact.

Idk, I also stated I am getting to the age where "everything was better in my day". So don't listen to me too much, its just a kids game afterall...

R. Johnson#3
10-29-2018, 01:53 PM
Don't hate the player, hate the game.

You can't blame teams for trying to gain a competitive advantage with the rules that are in place. If you want to see more defense, then the NBA has to adjust it's rules accordingly.

Also, the truth is that shooters have evolved and are far better. That's the other aspect of this. It's simple math... 3 counts more than 2. And there are so many good outside shooters these days that it makes sense for a lot of teams to jack up a bunch of 3's.

I donít think itís that shooters have gotten better but more so the fact that they canít be touched.

Hawkeye15
10-29-2018, 01:54 PM
I agree on this, but you've changed the subject... you proposed to widen the court and to move the 3pt line as to bring the score down and I replied that it would have the opposite effect...

After all, the NBA moved the 3pt line away and widened the floor, so that defenses will open up and scoring would be higher in the first place...

I didn't propose that, it was Scoots.

Allow perimeter defenders to use their hands/body again, and stop suspending guys for fouling hard.

Problem solved.

Scoots
10-29-2018, 01:55 PM
I don't want the early 90's back, that wasn't basketball either. But I would love perimeter defenders to be able to touch guys, so we can stop watching 40 three's a game go up.

Allow perimeter defenders to use their body/hands. Problem literally solved.

And take away the offensive player being able to create contact and get the call. Drives me nuts.

Hawkeye15
10-29-2018, 01:55 PM
that's not why the salaries have gone up. The game is just increasingly popular. NBA is the beneficiary of a game that knows how to market their players and also an American sport that can become a global behemoth. owners and players are happy because they're all making money.

that and everything is expensive today. It costs a zillion dollars to go see Bruno Mars. Salaries will stop going up when people stop paying the outrageous ticket prices.

R. Johnson#3
10-29-2018, 01:56 PM
Sure, but as I alluded to already, hardcore fans don't care about the business side of the NBA. At all. So I don't care if LeBron James gets hurt, anymore than I care if a 14th man gets hurt. And as RJ stated, guys like Charles Oakley were employed back in the day to regulate. You went after one of their stars, well now you get to deal with the muscle.

The 2000/01 Raps were the absolute best to watch. If anybody touched Vince then theyíd have to answer to Oak, JYD, Keon Clark, Antonio Davis or Kevin Willis. Hell even Alvin Williams would get in guys faces. Itís no surprise that was Vinceís best statistical season ever.

Scoots
10-29-2018, 01:56 PM
Widening the court and moving the 3pt line further back, it will cause even less defense played, if one looks to the Euroleague and the Olympics or the world cap games, where the court is narrower than the NBA and the 3pt line is nearer to the rim, the game is much more physical and the points scored are about 20% less... there are about 150 points scored on average for a 40mins game, while in the NBA its about 220 points scored on average, in a 48 mins game..

Perhaps a good idea would be to have common rules and court size as the rest of the world.

If they move the line back 2 feet the number of players capable of being over then mendoza line would drop WAY down, the number of 3s taken would plummet too.

Hawkeye15
10-29-2018, 01:56 PM
I donít think itís that shooters have gotten better but more so the fact that they canít be touched.

they have for sure gotten better, but that is because of the design of the game. Look no further than bigs out there on the regular canning 3's.

Hawkeye15
10-29-2018, 01:59 PM
The 2000/01 Raps were the absolute best to watch. If anybody touched Vince then theyíd have to answer to Oak, JYD, Keon Clark, Antonio Davis or Kevin Willis. Hell even Alvin Williams would get in guys faces. Itís no surprise that was Vinceís best statistical season ever.

haha, I know it man. Around that time (maybe 1-2 years prior), the Wolves were in the playoffs against the Spurs, and D-Rob was just physically punishing the Wolves bigs (namely KG). insert Todd Hammonds for like 1 minute, he shoves D-Rob, the Spurs stop dumping it in for a auto-kill and beat us the old fashioned way instead..

R. Johnson#3
10-29-2018, 02:05 PM
they have for sure gotten better, but that is because of the design of the game. Look no further than bigs out there on the regular canning 3's.

Yes but like you said itís because the design of the game. Bigs never really worked on their 3 point game because it was never in the game plan for them to shoot threes. If they did work on it Iím of the belief that most would still wouldíve been able to knock them down. IIRC Yao was actually a decent 3pt shooter in China but once he came to the NBA he only took 5 of them over his career.

Hawkeye15
10-29-2018, 02:06 PM
Yes but like you said itís because the design of the game. Bigs never really worked on their 3 point game because it was never in the game plan for them to shoot threes. If they did work on it Iím of the belief that most would still wouldíve been able to knock them down. IIRC Yao was actually a decent 3pt shooter in China but once he came to the NBA he only took 5 of them over his career.

What I mean is, the 3 is such a big part of the game, EVERYONE can shoot them now. So yes, shooters have gotten better, but out of necessity. Put these same rules back into 1990, and they would have churned out a ton more shooters.

Hawkeye15
10-29-2018, 02:07 PM
And take away the offensive player being able to create contact and get the call. Drives me nuts.

why not just eliminate James Harden....for good

all kidding aside, Harden is literally the most irritating player I have ever watched. He is EXACTLY what is wrong with the NBA today.

buckalis
10-29-2018, 02:57 PM
that's not why the salaries have gone up. The game is just increasingly popular. NBA is the beneficiary of a game that knows how to market their players and also an American sport that can become a global behemoth. owners and players are happy because they're all making money.
It's becoming increassingly popular, because fans from oversees are following their star players and want to see them excel in the NBA... There are TV contracts with broadcast corporations all over the world now... You wouldn't have that, if it wasn't so much variety of different nationality players playing... Cameroonians are all Sixers fans now and Greeks are Bucks... Serbians are spread to fans of different teams depending on the player they follow, same with Croatians... Slovenians are ... well, ...Doncic, Lithouanians are Raptors, Australians are Sixers.... etc... Remember Yao Ming carrying the Chinese flag in the Beijing Olympics?

buckalis
10-29-2018, 03:06 PM
If they move the line back 2 feet the number of players capable of being over then mendoza line would drop WAY down, the number of 3s taken would plummet too.
Nope...

FlashBolt
10-29-2018, 04:37 PM
It's becoming increassingly popular, because fans from oversees are following their star players and want to see them excel in the NBA... There are TV contracts with broadcast corporations all over the world now... You wouldn't have that, if it wasn't so much variety of different nationality players playing... Cameroonians are all Sixers fans now and Greeks are Bucks... Serbians are spread to fans of different teams depending on the player they follow, same with Croatians... Slovenians are ... well, ...Doncic, Lithouanians are Raptors, Australians are Sixers.... etc... Remember Yao Ming carrying the Chinese flag in the Beijing Olympics?

yeah, NBA is a global market and sport now but it still stands, domestically and internationally, basketball is a fast growing sport when you compare it to other sports. Who would have ever thought basketball would ever one day surpass MLB and NFL? None. and it'll happen soon enough. internationally, for sure, though. It's why American sports are largely limited to how many fans they can attract and NBA has found the perfect recipe.

Scoots
10-29-2018, 09:46 PM
Nope...

Nice rebuttal.

ewing
10-29-2018, 10:59 PM
Nice rebuttal.

At least you know when you are beat


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Redrum187
10-30-2018, 07:16 AM
It definitely has changed PSD's All Time Redraft... If all 5 starters can't shoot 3's, then you're basically screwed. Guys like Adrian Dantley are barely bench players. lol

Scoots
10-30-2018, 12:49 PM
At least you know when you are beat

Do you think moving the line farther out would have no effect on the frequency of the shot? At some point it no longer pays off to take the shot so significantly that players would not be encouraged to shoot it there. There is actual historical data to support this point ... when the line was moved in the number of people taking 3s went WAY up, when they moved it back out the number went down, it stands to fairly simple reasoning that moving it out considerably more would reduce the number of 3s taken, at some point all but eliminating them if you wanted to push it that far. And once the frequency of 3s goes down there will necessarily be more inside play which people seem to want. Granted there will be more space inside the line, but those are mostly understood to be "bad shots" so that space wouldn't make that much of a difference.

buckalis
10-30-2018, 01:02 PM
Do you think moving the line farther out would have no effect on the frequency of the shot? At some point it no longer pays off to take the shot so significantly that players would not be encouraged to shoot it there. There is actual historical data to support this point ... when the line was moved in the number of people taking 3s went WAY up, when they moved it back out the number went down, it stands to fairly simple reasoning that moving it out considerably more would reduce the number of 3s taken, at some point all but eliminating them if you wanted to push it that far. And once the frequency of 3s goes down there will necessarily be more inside play which people seem to want. Granted there will be more space inside the line, but those are mostly understood to be "bad shots" so that space wouldn't make that much of a difference.

You don't reed previous posts, do you?

In Europe the 3pt is nearer, yet the total score is 20% less, because it is within the reach of peripheral defence...

In the NBA, they moved the line back so that peripheral defense won't reach it and therefore they could increase scoring... If you move the line further back, there is no way a defense can be against shooters... You will have all offense dominated by long shooting far more that it now is...

ewing
10-30-2018, 01:05 PM
Do you think moving the line farther out would have no effect on the frequency of the shot? At some point it no longer pays off to take the shot so significantly that players would not be encouraged to shoot it there. There is actual historical data to support this point ... when the line was moved in the number of people taking 3s went WAY up, when they moved it back out the number went down, it stands to fairly simple reasoning that moving it out considerably more would reduce the number of 3s taken, at some point all but eliminating them if you wanted to push it that far. And once the frequency of 3s goes down there will necessarily be more inside play which people seem to want. Granted there will be more space inside the line, but those are mostly understood to be "bad shots" so that space wouldn't make that much of a difference.

I was joking [emoji3]


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IndyRealist
10-30-2018, 01:10 PM
I don't think you have to take it that far. And extending the 3pt line will make it harder to play defense, as it's a longer sprint to double and recover to shooters.

The first logical step is to leave the line where it is but have it run into the sideline. If you take away corner 3s, there's less 3pt line to guard and less spacing for shooters to spread out your defense. It'll allow the defense to collapse on dribble drive without worrying about a 7ft 30% 3pt shooter in the corner. The threat of the corner 3 is what gets shooters open.

Vinylman
10-30-2018, 01:33 PM
Do you think moving the line farther out would have no effect on the frequency of the shot? At some point it no longer pays off to take the shot so significantly that players would not be encouraged to shoot it there. There is actual historical data to support this point ... when the line was moved in the number of people taking 3s went WAY up, when they moved it back out the number went down, it stands to fairly simple reasoning that moving it out considerably more would reduce the number of 3s taken, at some point all but eliminating them if you wanted to push it that far. And once the frequency of 3s goes down there will necessarily be more inside play which people seem to want. Granted there will be more space inside the line, but those are mostly understood to be "bad shots" so that space wouldn't make that much of a difference.

you don't even have to move the line out up top Ö if you just eliminate the corner 3s four feet out from the baseline the game would totally change.

Vinylman
10-30-2018, 01:33 PM
I don't think you have to take it that far. And extending the 3pt line will make it harder to play defense, as it's a longer sprint to double and recover to shooters.

The first logical step is to leave the line where it is but have it run into the sideline. If you take away corner 3s, there's less 3pt line to guard and less spacing for shooters to spread out your defense. It'll allow the defense to collapse on dribble drive without worrying about a 7ft 30% 3pt shooter in the corner. The threat of the corner 3 is what gets shooters open.

I didn't see this post before mine...

this is the correct assessment imo especially the bolded

IndyRealist
10-30-2018, 02:41 PM
I didn't see this post before mine...

this is the correct assessment imo especially the bolded

That was eerie.

numba1CHANGsta
10-30-2018, 04:06 PM
The NBA has turned into a year long all-star game event.

Scoots
10-30-2018, 04:36 PM
You don't reed previous posts, do you?

In Europe the 3pt is nearer, yet the total score is 20% less, because it is within the reach of peripheral defence...

In the NBA, they moved the line back so that peripheral defense won't reach it and therefore they could increase scoring... If you move the line further back, there is no way a defense can be against shooters... You will have all offense dominated by long shooting far more that it now is...

So, just to take that to it's extreme ... you think if the line was moved back 20 feet that people shooting from nearly 44' from the hoop would dominate the game? If they move the line back enough so that fewer than 30 players in the NBA could hit 3s above 30% of the time when open the game would move back inside.

The NBA moved the line in 1 foot for 2 years and it broke the game because too many people started taking 3s. We are there again. If the line was moved back it would get out of peoples range and their coaches would tell them to stop shooting 3s.

Yes, moving the line back would create more room between doubles in a set defense, but a lot of the time the 3s are being jacked up in transition.

Scoots
10-30-2018, 04:38 PM
I don't think you have to take it that far. And extending the 3pt line will make it harder to play defense, as it's a longer sprint to double and recover to shooters.

The first logical step is to leave the line where it is but have it run into the sideline. If you take away corner 3s, there's less 3pt line to guard and less spacing for shooters to spread out your defense. It'll allow the defense to collapse on dribble drive without worrying about a 7ft 30% 3pt shooter in the corner. The threat of the corner 3 is what gets shooters open.

Or widen the court 1 foot on each side and make it equal all the way around. I've long felt that should be taken care of. Unfortunately it's not just the corner 3, people are shooting from all over in transition. I imagine we'd see a ton of turnover calls if the line was consistent and the court wasn't widened. Those guys have big feet ... they'd have to stay on their toes to not be out of bounds.

The "collapse on a dribble drive" has largely been taken away by the freedom of movement ... in general the man doubling is getting called for a foul it seems right now.

buckalis
10-30-2018, 04:47 PM
So, just to take that to it's extreme ... you think if the line was moved back 20 feet that people shooting from nearly 44' from the hoop would dominate the game? If they move the line back enough so that fewer than 30 players in the NBA could hit 3s above 30% of the time when open the game would move back inside.

The NBA moved the line in 1 foot for 2 years and it broke the game because too many people started taking 3s. We are there again. If the line was moved back it would get out of peoples range and their coaches would tell them to stop shooting 3s.

Yes, moving the line back would create more room between doubles in a set defense, but a lot of the time the 3s are being jacked up in transition.
Who ever talked abou 20 feet before in this discussion?

Do you invent things as to try and create a (non existing) point of argument?

How wide would the court be then? 40 feet wider? ...put your reasoning back on track and sense if you want to ever make it in a proper discussion...

IndyRealist
10-30-2018, 06:00 PM
Or widen the court 1 foot on each side and make it equal all the way around. I've long felt that should be taken care of. Unfortunately it's not just the corner 3, people are shooting from all over in transition. I imagine we'd see a ton of turnover calls if the line was consistent and the court wasn't widened. Those guys have big feet ... they'd have to stay on their toes to not be out of bounds.

The "collapse on a dribble drive" has largely been taken away by the freedom of movement ... in general the man doubling is getting called for a foul it seems right now.

It's still early in the freedom of movement thing and I think it's being taken to the extreme. It'll settle somewhere in the middle. But if help D doesn't have to come from the corner, they might just be able to get in front of the penetration and plant their feet.

zookman65
10-30-2018, 07:12 PM
I think a lot of you are suffering from good ole day syndrome. The game has never been better. People pointing towards analytics ruining the game are basically saying that smart people with pocket protectors figuring out 3 points are better than 2 is a problem is comical. Today's game is typically either a fast break layup, fast break 3 or plays set up to get a 3 or a back door cut underneath. Game is great. Get over it. Or better yet go watch a game from the 90s where everyone clears out and one guy backs the ball in for 20 seconds. Now that is boring.

ewing
10-30-2018, 07:30 PM
I think a lot of you are suffering from good ole day syndrome. The game has never been better. People pointing towards analytics ruining the game are basically saying that smart people with pocket protectors figuring out 3 points are better than 2 is a problem is comical. Today's game is typically either a fast break layup, fast break 3 or plays set up to get a 3 or a back door cut underneath. Game is great. Get over it. Or better yet go watch a game from the 90s where everyone clears out and one guy backs the ball in for 20 seconds. Now that is boring.

Your post is boring.


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buckalis
10-30-2018, 07:43 PM
I think a lot of you are suffering from good ole day syndrome. The game has never been better. People pointing towards analytics ruining the game are basically saying that smart people with pocket protectors figuring out 3 points are better than 2 is a problem is comical. Today's game is typically either a fast break layup, fast break 3 or plays set up to get a 3 or a back door cut underneath. Game is great. Get over it. Or better yet go watch a game from the 90s where everyone clears out and one guy backs the ball in for 20 seconds. Now that is boring.

A well justified opinion despite if one partially agrees, please post more here, so that we can avoid the conversations been dominated by the same trolls over and over again...

Scoots
10-30-2018, 10:40 PM
Who ever talked abou 20 feet before in this discussion?

Do you invent things as to try and create a (non existing) point of argument?

How wide would the court be then? 40 feet wider? ...put your reasoning back on track and sense if you want to ever make it in a proper discussion...

I made the point that moving the line out some distance that the number of players shooting behind the line would decline. You replied "nope". I don't think you were thinking when you implied that you didn't think a longer shot would result in a change in scheme so I used an extreme hypothetical to prove my point that moving the line back would reduce the rate of shots taken behind the line. I specifically said it was extreme.

Scoots
10-30-2018, 10:41 PM
It's still early in the freedom of movement thing and I think it's being taken to the extreme. It'll settle somewhere in the middle. But if help D doesn't have to come from the corner, they might just be able to get in front of the penetration and plant their feet.

While I agree, I think the analytical cat is out of the bag, and teams are going to keep prioritizing taking 3s as a primary part of their offense going forward unless something significant changes.

zookman65
10-30-2018, 11:46 PM
While I agree, I think the analytical cat is out of the bag, and teams are going to keep prioritizing taking 3s as a primary part of their offense going forward unless something significant changes.

In my opinion the easiest way to think of this is simple math - unless a guy can hit a mid range jumper at greater than 1.5 times the percentage of a 3 point attempt then it is simply not worth taking the mid range shot.

Twolves88
10-30-2018, 11:52 PM
I think a lot of you are suffering from good ole day syndrome. The game has never been better. People pointing towards analytics ruining the game are basically saying that smart people with pocket protectors figuring out 3 points are better than 2 is a problem is comical. Today's game is typically either a fast break layup, fast break 3 or plays set up to get a 3 or a back door cut underneath. Game is great. Get over it. Or better yet go watch a game from the 90s where everyone clears out and one guy backs the ball in for 20 seconds. Now that is boring.


That really isn't the case at all. The fact is that the NBA has changed a ton from what it was. The teams used to play various different styles. Now its how quick can you jack up a 3 pointer. There is no diversity in how a team operates it just simply is down to player X is better then player Y at 3's so therefore we win. I'm not asking for changing in analytics I think that is more then ok for the game. What I am asking for is that someone is actually allowed to play some semblance of defense. Or play something other then 300000000000 3 pointers wins the game.

Look at the teams in the past and the diversity that existed.
1. 7 seconds or less suns
2. ball sharing spurs
3. Flex offense Utah
4. Grind it out defensive bulls team
5. The cavs with LeBron and a bunch of 3 point snipers.

Notice how many different styles existed? Now what do we have?

1. Golden state fast paced team 3 pointers with superstars
2. Rockets jack up as many 3 pointers as possible
3. Lakers going the same direction
4. Bucks same direction

Many teams in the league are resorting to the same style of play which is the core issue. The league should be about diversity in HOW your team wins not just because team X has superior talent. When you look at this it starts to make the coaching less relevant on the strategies involved.

Scoots
10-31-2018, 01:37 AM
In my opinion the easiest way to think of this is simple math - unless a guy can hit a mid range jumper at greater than 1.5 times the percentage of a 3 point attempt then it is simply not worth taking the mid range shot.

Well ... yeah.

buckalis
10-31-2018, 03:26 AM
I made the point that moving the line out some distance that the number of players shooting behind the line would decline. You replied "nope". I don't think you were thinking when you implied that you didn't think a longer shot would result in a change in scheme so I used an extreme hypothetical to prove my point that moving the line back would reduce the rate of shots taken behind the line. I specifically said it was extreme.
I replied "nope" because the subject was the same as discussed by me and others before you ever mentioned it...

Scoots
10-31-2018, 10:04 AM
I replied "nope" because the subject was the same as discussed by me and others before you ever mentioned it...

So ... you were not replying to the point I was making in the post of mine you quoted?

Vinylman
10-31-2018, 02:28 PM
That was eerie.

it is halloween

Vinylman
10-31-2018, 02:30 PM
Or widen the court 1 foot on each side and make it equal all the way around. I've long felt that should be taken care of. Unfortunately it's not just the corner 3, people are shooting from all over in transition. I imagine we'd see a ton of turnover calls if the line was consistent and the court wasn't widened. Those guys have big feet ... they'd have to stay on their toes to not be out of bounds.

The "collapse on a dribble drive" has largely been taken away by the freedom of movement ... in general the man doubling is getting called for a foul it seems right now.

the spacing the corner 3 provides is more important than another foot of difficulty... it is what opens the lane for penetration - kick out... setting guys up in a corner for a 2 is a diminishing return and at a minimum would require the offensive schemes to innovate again which would make the league more watchable imo

buckalis
10-31-2018, 02:32 PM
So ... you were not replying to the point I was making in the post of mine you quoted?
reply what? To something that has been already answered, just because you don't read the discussion in which you want to participate?

a "nope" is enough in this case, reasoning behind the "nope" already exists...

WaDe03
10-31-2018, 02:45 PM
reply what? To something that has been already answered, just because you don't read the discussion in which you want to participate?

a "nope" is enough in this case, reasoning behind the "nope" already exists...

Please shut the **** up.

Vinylman
10-31-2018, 02:48 PM
Please shut the **** up.

thanks for saying that... he is literally the most annoying poster in the forum.

WaDe03
10-31-2018, 02:53 PM
thanks for saying that... he is literally the most annoying poster in the forum.

Anytime lol and I agree!

FlashBolt
11-01-2018, 02:40 AM
Player Positions

New basketball positions were classified by Stanford university student Muthu Alagappan, who while working for the data visualization company Ayasdi mapped the network of one season NBA players linking them by the similarity of their statistics. Then based on node clusters players were grouped into 13 positions.[4]

Offensive Ball-Handler- Player that specializes in scoring and ball handling, but has low averages of steals and blocks.

Defensive Ball-Handler- Player who specialized in assisting and stealing the ball, but is average in scoring and shooting.

Combo Ball-Handler- Player who are above average in both offense and defense, but doesn't excel in any.

Shooting Ball-Handler- Player that is above average in shot attempts and points scored per game.

Role-Playing Ball-Handler- Those who play few minutes and don't have large impact on the team.

3-Point Rebounder- A big man and a ball handler with above average rebounds and three point shots attempted and made.

Scoring Rebounder- Player with high scoring and rebound averages.

Paint Protector- Those valued for blocking and rebounding, but with low average points scored.

Scoring Paint Protector Player-s that at both good and offense and defense in the paint.

NBA 1st-Team- Those with above averages in most of the statistical categories.

NBA 2nd-Team- Similar, but a bit worse than NBA 1st-Team players.

Role Player- Similar, but worse than NBA 2nd-Team players.

One-of-a-Kind- Ones that are so good and exceptional that could not be categorized.


these should be the new positions instead of the traditional ones. It's been boring so far, though. I find that the hardcore basketball fans are less interested but the casual fans are skyrocketing because they don't know any better. They see 50 points and think these guys are infinitely better or something.

Scoots
11-01-2018, 06:15 AM
Player Positions

New basketball positions were classified by Stanford university student Muthu Alagappan, who while working for the data visualization company Ayasdi mapped the network of one season NBA players linking them by the similarity of their statistics. Then based on node clusters players were grouped into 13 positions.[4]

Offensive Ball-Handler- Player that specializes in scoring and ball handling, but has low averages of steals and blocks.

Defensive Ball-Handler- Player who specialized in assisting and stealing the ball, but is average in scoring and shooting.

Combo Ball-Handler- Player who are above average in both offense and defense, but doesn't excel in any.

Shooting Ball-Handler- Player that is above average in shot attempts and points scored per game.

Role-Playing Ball-Handler- Those who play few minutes and don't have large impact on the team.

3-Point Rebounder- A big man and a ball handler with above average rebounds and three point shots attempted and made.

Scoring Rebounder- Player with high scoring and rebound averages.

Paint Protector- Those valued for blocking and rebounding, but with low average points scored.

Scoring Paint Protector Player-s that at both good and offense and defense in the paint.

NBA 1st-Team- Those with above averages in most of the statistical categories.

NBA 2nd-Team- Similar, but a bit worse than NBA 1st-Team players.

Role Player- Similar, but worse than NBA 2nd-Team players.

One-of-a-Kind- Ones that are so good and exceptional that could not be categorized.


these should be the new positions instead of the traditional ones. It's been boring so far, though. I find that the hardcore basketball fans are less interested but the casual fans are skyrocketing because they don't know any better. They see 50 points and think these guys are infinitely better or something.

I can't come up with something better, but the categories seem like there would be some strange overlap.

zookman65
11-01-2018, 07:57 AM
I have read through the entire thread and I am amazed that this is posed as a problem. Nothing is more exciting inside an NBA arena than a team getting on a hot streak from the 3 point line. This good ole day syndrome of somehow backing the ball down in the blocks or the mid range 12 footer is somehow inherently brilliant exciting basketball is beyond belief. Leave the game alone.

Scoots
11-01-2018, 09:20 AM
I have read through the entire thread and I am amazed that this is posed as a problem. Nothing is more exciting inside an NBA arena than a team getting on a hot streak from the 3 point line. This good ole day syndrome of somehow backing the ball down in the blocks or the mid range 12 footer is somehow inherently brilliant exciting basketball is beyond belief. Leave the game alone.

I don't think the issue is a hot streak, it's more a team taking 45 3s and hitting 15 means that 30 times you are watching the first guy with the ball to get to the line jacking up a miss with almost no offensive scheme beyond taking a 3 point shot. That's okay though, the game changes and so do fans ... unless there are rules changes this is the game now.

For perspective, in the 60s 60% of the shots were missed and the game was played at a high pace. Now we are getting back to similar numbers.

FlashBolt
11-01-2018, 10:13 AM
I can't come up with something better, but the categories seem like there would be some strange overlap.

it ain't perfect but the traditional roles are pointless. I mean, Harden never changed his game but was labeled a PG just because they had to. Same thing with guys like Russ who isn't really a PG but because he has the ball so many possessions, they just call him a PG when realistically he plays like a SG.

FlashBolt
11-01-2018, 10:16 AM
I don't think the issue is a hot streak, it's more a team taking 45 3s and hitting 15 means that 30 times you are watching the first guy with the ball to get to the line jacking up a miss with almost no offensive scheme beyond taking a 3 point shot. That's okay though, the game changes and so do fans ... unless there are rules changes this is the game now.

For perspective, in the 60s 60% of the shots were missed and the game was played at a high pace. Now we are getting back to similar numbers.

This is the quickest pace since the 85-86 season - over 30 years ago. This new pace isn't something most fans here remember vividly. There's only two more threes per game averaged compared to last season so I wouldn't say it is the threes more-so the change in pace being the reason.

LA_Raiders
11-02-2018, 11:30 PM
Itís not as fun as it used to be; chucking 3s and easy layups are boring for me. **** the comish and his stupid ideas.

YAALREADYKNO
11-03-2018, 02:09 AM
I still enjoy watching Westbrook play even though he can play out of control sometimes but heís too explosive to not be entertaining. Other than that, i canít even find myself to sit through a whole Mavericks game like I used to 5-10 years ago. I enjoyed the early to mid 00s WAY more than I do todayís game.