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View Full Version : Kyrie plans to re-sign with Celtics next summer!



WaDe03
10-04-2018, 07:06 PM
1047984448833245189

Great for the Celtics, May entice them to push for an AD trade even more at the deadline if the Pelicans are struggling (or any other star in ADs situation). This puts Jimmy and Kyrie teaming up talks to sleep.

PSDs Woj/Messiah brought it to you 1st.

ZH721
10-04-2018, 07:18 PM
Legit crying at Knicks fans plugging him into their hypothetical lineups for the past year, ďbecause itís New YorkĒ. Like holy ****, if they didnít get it before, maybe they will now. No one wants to play there until they prove theyíre relevant.

Every year their fans think theyíre signing the top FAís. I actually feel bad, that must be so brutal.

Jamiecballer
10-04-2018, 07:42 PM
1047984448833245189

Great for the Celtics, May entice them to push for an AD trade even more at the deadline if the Pelicans are struggling (or any other star in ADs situation). This puts Jimmy and Kyrie teaming up talks to sleep.

PSDs Woj/Messiah brought it to you 1st.I wouldn't take this to the (TD) bank just yet

Sent from my SM-A520W using Tapatalk

WaDe03
10-04-2018, 07:49 PM
I wouldn't take this to the (TD) bank just yet

Sent from my SM-A520W using Tapatalk

888490190599331841

Canít forget this brother!

knickfan371
10-04-2018, 08:11 PM
888490190599331841

Canít forget this brother!

what do you all expect him to say, honestly the knicks future looks bright with or without kyrie irving. i want him to stay in Boston.

More-Than-Most
10-04-2018, 08:40 PM
i remember when it was reported the same for bron/KD/PG13 and so on down the list

hugepatsfan
10-04-2018, 08:53 PM
Still not guaranteed he re-signs but a direct quote from the man himself is as strong an indicator as you can get really.

aman_13
10-04-2018, 09:57 PM
He will re-sign.

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Dade County
10-04-2018, 10:27 PM
Basically by Irving doing it this way there will be no more press conference distractions on his upcoming free agency.

Of course there were things said and agreed upon behind closed doors so we will never know the true motive by him saying this publicly now.

Basically a PR move to shut everyone up.

redsox12
10-04-2018, 10:30 PM
Letttttts go!

cmellofan15
10-05-2018, 06:52 AM
It would be a poor decision not to re-sign

R. Johnson#3
10-05-2018, 08:13 AM
The best part of the NBA off-season is Knick fans always talking about how the Knicks are going to get better. This year was better than others though.

Knicks hire Fizzdale
Knick fans assume that means Lebron is coming because he coached him in Miami
Lebron signs with LA
Knick fans create rumor about Kyrie and Jimmy teaming up on the Knicks
Both players shoot it down
Knick fans starting to tell themselves KD is coming in 2019 because they have ďpotentialĒ

Honestly, I wouldnít be surprised if they started a rumor where Kobe comes out of retirement and joins the Knicks.

Hawkeye15
10-05-2018, 09:25 AM
I feel like boston is the perfect situation to mask Irving's weaknesses (defense), and a great fit on offense. He would be wise to stick around.

WaDe03
10-05-2018, 09:26 AM
It always cracks me up when fans of teams are constantly talking about getting a guy and when they donít get him it turns in to ďI didnít really want him, out future is brightĒ and stuff like that to try and act like itís for the best lol!

Hawkeye15
10-05-2018, 09:52 AM
It always cracks me up when fans of teams are constantly talking about getting a guy and when they donít get him it turns in to ďI didnít really want him, out future is brightĒ and stuff like that to try and act like itís for the best lol!

depends what you want i guess. For anyone who wanted Irving, and he was going to be your best player without argument, your team wasn't going to be very good. But, for the C's, it's great, because they are very talented all around and cover up his boo boos. The Knicks? They would have shifted from bad to mediocre. That is an even worse spot.

ewing
10-05-2018, 10:24 AM
I feel like boston is the perfect situation to mask Irving's weaknesses (defense), and a great fit on offense. He would be wise to stick around.

Funny how everywhere just seems to be a good fit to mask his deficiencies. maybe he is just good

ewing
10-05-2018, 10:26 AM
It always cracks me up when fans of teams are constantly talking about getting a guy and when they donít get him it turns in to ďI didnít really want him, out future is brightĒ and stuff like that to try and act like itís for the best lol!

Yeah wait to Mitchell Robinson and KP are sharing the floor. The knicks will have longest most mobile front court in the league

WaDe03
10-05-2018, 10:26 AM
depends what you want i guess. For anyone who wanted Irving, and he was going to be your best player without argument, your team wasn't going to be very good. But, for the C's, it's great, because they are very talented all around and cover up his boo boos. The Knicks? They would have shifted from bad to mediocre. That is an even worse spot.

He wouldíve been a step in the right direction for any team trying to get better.

WaDe03
10-05-2018, 10:27 AM
Funny how everywhere just seems to be a good fit to mask his deficiencies. maybe he is just good

This lol. I feel like Hawkeye has something against every PG not named Rubio.

WaDe03
10-05-2018, 10:29 AM
Yeah wait to Mitchell Robinson and KP are sharing the floor. The knicks will have longest most mobile front court in the league

And then put that with Knox Kyrie and it looks even better.

SteBO
10-05-2018, 10:30 AM
Funny how everywhere just seems to be a good fit to mask his deficiencies. maybe he is just good
Strawman....Irving is just good, and nobody claimed otherwise.

ewing
10-05-2018, 10:30 AM
depends what you want i guess. For anyone who wanted Irving, and he was going to be your best player without argument, your team wasn't going to be very good. But, for the C's, it's great, because they are very talented all around and cover up his boo boos. The Knicks? They would have shifted from bad to mediocre. That is an even worse spot.

Or KP develops, Mitchell Robinson becomes a 7'1 Clint Capella over the next couple years, Knox grows into a legit starter, and you have an elite ball handling guard. Sometimes when you don't know you let it play out with the idea that it could work instead of defaulting to well we don't have 3 proven superstars so we are just going to suck on purpose.

ewing
10-05-2018, 10:31 AM
This lol. I feel like Hawkeye has something against every PG not named Rubio.

He likes Dragic. I do too.

ewing
10-05-2018, 10:34 AM
And then put that with Knox Kyrie and it looks even better.

We still suck for now but Knoxs looks likes he will be a legit two way starting wing (very much the position-less basketball type guy) and Mitchell is intriguing

Hawkeye15
10-05-2018, 10:40 AM
Funny how everywhere just seems to be a good fit to mask his deficiencies. maybe he is just good

he is a good player, but very overrated in general. His Cleveland teams were horrible prior to LeBron showing up. Though since age 22 he has had the 2nd best player ever on his squad, then flipped to a loaded Celtics team.

My point is, if Kyrie is your best player without question, you are likely headed for the lottery. The C's allow him to not be a defender due to multiple guys who can check the better 1's, and it gives him talent galore, including a player I think is as good or better at the wing.

Hawkeye15
10-05-2018, 10:41 AM
This lol. I feel like Hawkeye has something against every PG not named Rubio.

not at all. Curry, CP3, Westbrook, and Lillard are all exceptional players. I just think the PG position has become over glorified because scoring PG's get so much credit now. But their job is far beyond scoring, and some don't do it well.

WaDe03
10-05-2018, 11:08 AM
not at all. Curry, CP3, Westbrook, and Lillard are all exceptional players. I just think the PG position has become over glorified because scoring PG's get so much credit now. But their job is far beyond scoring, and some don't do it well.

Lillard is one of my favorite player, like him a lot more than Kyrie but what makes them so different that you view Lillard as exceptional and hate Kyrie from everything Iíve seen? Theyíre both scoring PGs, Kyrie with a slightly higher efficiency there while Lillard scores a little more and assists a little more. Neither are good defenders.

ewing
10-05-2018, 11:16 AM
Lillard is one of my favorite player, like him a lot more than Kyrie but what makes them so different that you view Lillard as exceptional and hate Kyrie from everything Iíve seen? Theyíre both scoring PGs, Kyrie with a slightly higher efficiency there while Lillard scores a little more and assists a little more. Neither are good defenders.

I'll answer for Hawk- Kyrie played with LeBron :)

Hawkeye15
10-05-2018, 11:26 AM
Or KP develops, Mitchell Robinson becomes a 7'1 Clint Capella over the next couple years, Knox grows into a legit starter, and you have an elite ball handling guard. Sometimes when you don't know you let it play out with the idea that it could work instead of defaulting to well we don't have 3 proven superstars so we are just going to suck on purpose.

oh I am not saying the Knicks (or any team with space) doesn't chase a perennial all star, I am simply saying prepared to be disappointed if Irving is your best player by a nice gap. Sure, if the rest of the Knicks can all become good to great starters, they will be just fine. Good luck with all that happening.

Hawkeye15
10-05-2018, 11:29 AM
Lillard is one of my favorite player, like him a lot more than Kyrie but what makes them so different that you view Lillard as exceptional and hate Kyrie from everything Iíve seen? Theyíre both scoring PGs, Kyrie with a slightly higher efficiency there while Lillard scores a little more and assists a little more. Neither are good defenders.

consistency, and health to date. They are similar, but I rarely think Lillard plays for the name on the back of his jersey over the front.

If you dive into their numbers, Lillard produces more wins with his production as well, but some of that can be argued as situation, etc.

Heediot
10-05-2018, 12:29 PM
consistency, and health to date. They are similar, but I rarely think Lillard plays for the name on the back of his jersey over the front.

If you dive into their numbers, Lillard produces more wins with his production as well, but some of that can be argued as situation, etc.

THis is ridic. Kyrie has been lauded as a team guy and has sacrificed in Boston. He had a defined role in cleveland as a scorer and bail out guy. He has been asked to be more of a distributor in Boston, and as clutch as he is he has been willing to let others shine with the game on the line.

You can harp on Kyrie for his lack of basketball feel and court vision, suspect defense, but I think your bias against makes you see/hear things differently.

I think Lillard has a better feel and can make his mates better vs. Kyrie. I think Kyrie is a better pure scorer and harder to lock down especially vs. Playoff d.

WaDe03
10-05-2018, 12:47 PM
1047984448833245189

Great for the Celtics, May entice them to push for an AD trade even more at the deadline if the Pelicans are struggling (or any other star in ADs situation). This puts Jimmy and Kyrie teaming up talks to sleep.

PSDs Woj/Messiah brought it to you 1st.

1048248825578762240

AllBall
10-05-2018, 01:07 PM
No extension no care. I've seen this story before. The NBA is a soap opera on repeat. Cue gullible saps in shock and awe in 3...2...1...

ewing
10-05-2018, 01:28 PM
oh I am not saying the Knicks (or any team with space) doesn't chase a perennial all star, I am simply saying prepared to be disappointed if Irving is your best player by a nice gap. Sure, if the rest of the Knicks can all become good to great starters, they will be just fine. Good luck with all that happening.

Thanks, i'll be rooting

Hawkeye15
10-05-2018, 02:00 PM
Thanks, i'll be rooting

as will I. I tend to root for teams that have sucked forever turning it around. And then, when they do, I turn on them.

Hawkeye15
10-05-2018, 02:07 PM
THis is ridic. Kyrie has been lauded as a team guy and has sacrificed in Boston. He had a defined role in cleveland as a scorer and bail out guy. He has been asked to be more of a distributor in Boston, and as clutch as he is he has been willing to let others shine with the game on the line.

You can harp on Kyrie for his lack of basketball feel and court vision, suspect defense, but I think your bias against makes you see/hear things differently.

I think Lillard has a better feel and can make his mates better vs. Kyrie. I think Kyrie is a better pure scorer and harder to lock down especially vs. Playoff d.

Lillard is just a better overall player to me. Guys who play with a playground style, to me, are not concerned with their team over themselves. I get its a style, but count me in as a guy who just doesn't care for inconsistent effort, and adding in the fact irving gets hurt all the time, it's a no brainer for me.

But, these 2 are close enough, that it isn't worth the continued argument. I just can't stand Irving, his style of play, etc. But sure, I would take him over most others with 20 seconds to go, down 1 in a monster game. I just don't concern myself with the 0.000001% of minutes others seem to dwell on. I care about 48/82

Heediot
10-05-2018, 02:38 PM
Lillard is just a better overall player to me. Guys who play with a playground style, to me, are not concerned with their team over themselves. I get its a style, but count me in as a guy who just doesn't care for inconsistent effort, and adding in the fact irving gets hurt all the time, it's a no brainer for me.

But, these 2 are close enough, that it isn't worth the continued argument. I just can't stand Irving, his style of play, etc. But sure, I would take him over most others with 20 seconds to go, down 1 in a monster game. I just don't concern myself with the 0.000001% of minutes others seem to dwell on. I care about 48/82

I just don't think calling one guy more selfish vs. the other is warranted. One guys plays more for the back of the shirt comment was ridic. Kyrie has been a consumate teammate and super coachable in Boston fwiw. In Cleveland he knew his role, and he knew Bron was the real coach lolol.

Hawkeye15
10-05-2018, 02:53 PM
I just don't think calling one guy more selfish vs. the other is warranted. One guys plays more for the back of the shirt comment was ridic. Kyrie has been a consumate teammate and super coachable in Boston fwiw. In Cleveland he knew his role, and he knew Bron was the real coach lolol.

Call it how I see it. You don't have to agree. I have already admitted many times my dislike for Kyrie, and his game. I understand how good he CAN be, I just don't think he consistently brings it at all. Proof is in the numbers. Lillards metrics all show more winning play.

FlashBolt
10-05-2018, 02:56 PM
Call it how I see it. You don't have to agree. I have already admitted many times my dislike for Kyrie, and his game. I understand how good he CAN be, I just don't think he consistently brings it at all. Proof is in the numbers. Lillards metrics all show more winning play.

No it doesn't lol. Kyrie is a better offensive version of Lillard and really, all Lillard generates is offense. He's not an elite playmaker or defender so there isn't much separating those two. Gun to head, I think Portland fans would take that trade without thinking twice.

valade16
10-05-2018, 02:56 PM
Call it how I see it. You don't have to agree. I have already admitted many times my dislike for Kyrie, and his game. I understand how good he CAN be, I just don't think he consistently brings it at all. Proof is in the numbers. Lillards metrics all show more winning play.

As a Blazer fan and a Lillard fan, I do have to point out the playoffs show Kyrie being the better player. Lillard's last playoff series was a disaster.

valade16
10-05-2018, 02:57 PM
And as a Portland fan, no I would not trade Lillard for Kyrie nor would any Portland fan I know.

Hawkeye15
10-05-2018, 03:17 PM
As a Blazer fan and a Lillard fan, I do have to point out the playoffs show Kyrie being the better player. Lillard's last playoff series was a disaster.

fair enough. Though, at any point do we factor in Irving misses plenty of playoff games?

Hawkeye15
10-05-2018, 03:20 PM
No it doesn't lol. Kyrie is a better offensive version of Lillard and really, all Lillard generates is offense. He's not an elite playmaker or defender so there isn't much separating those two. Gun to head, I think Portland fans would take that trade without thinking twice.

Lillard with higher offensive rating, VORP, RPM, and his PER/TS/WS/WS48 all higher (only by a tick though).

They are very similar players, I just prefer Lillard's consistency and lack of injury history.

FlashBolt
10-05-2018, 03:25 PM
Lillard with higher offensive rating, VORP, RPM, and his PER/TS/WS/WS48 all higher (only by a tick though).

They are very similar players, I just prefer Lillard's consistency and lack of injury history.

I don't disagree with the Lillard having the better advanced metrics but I disagree with it showing Lillard being the more winning player. I think Kyrie has proven he's got a higher capability of winning games than Lillard. The days of one player carrying a team is over so it's all about the skillset of a player moreso than metrics at times and that's where I think Kyrie is just a bit better than Lillard in his shotmaking ability. Also, I think Lillard's playoff performance last season really did some damage on his reputation. I remember Lillard draining game winners and clutch shots but those days are forgotten because he was stopped by Rondo and Jrue.

Hawkeye15
10-05-2018, 03:31 PM
I don't disagree with the Lillard having the better advanced metrics but I disagree with it showing Lillard being the more winning player. I think Kyrie has proven he's got a higher capability of winning games than Lillard. The days of one player carrying a team is over so it's all about the skillset of a player moreso than metrics at times and that's where I think Kyrie is just a bit better than Lillard in his shotmaking ability. Also, I think Lillard's playoff performance last season really did some damage on his reputation. I remember Lillard draining game winners and clutch shots but those days are forgotten because he was stopped by Rondo and Jrue.

so Irving is getting credit for playing with a better player than. Seriously that is the difference. Lillard has needed to play as the lead dog his entire career. Irving-never. Unless we go back to his early days where his team was terrible, but I am not holding that against him. I also understand, though don't agree with, the fact Irving will FOREVER get extra credit for his 2016 finals. To me, it's one series, even though it was a huge one.

I get it, people want to judge players situationally. I do it, you are doing it, and going back to my statement earlier-these 2 aren't worth an in depth fight. I prefer chocolate, you like cookies and cream.

FlashBolt
10-05-2018, 03:38 PM
so Irving is getting credit for playing with a better player than. Seriously that is the difference. Lillard has needed to play as the lead dog his entire career. Irving-never. Unless we go back to his early days where his team was terrible, but I am not holding that against him. I also understand, though don't agree with, the fact Irving will FOREVER get extra credit for his 2016 finals. To me, it's one series, even though it was a huge one.

I get it, people want to judge players situationally. I do it, you are doing it, and going back to my statement earlier-these 2 aren't worth an in depth fight. I prefer chocolate, you like cookies and cream.

Hey man, I'm just telling you what I saw. I saw Lillard massively underperform and get stopped by Rondo and Jrue. So much so that people were saying, "Playoff Rondo is a real thing." Now, I'm not doubting Lillard's status as an NBA player but I do believe he played awful last playoffs and it was just bad. I'm giving credit to Irving because, as much as you dislike him, he helped LeBron as well. I mean, Kyrie did his thing and showed up. He was there to score the ball and he did it very well for the Cavs so I'm not sure why just because LeBron shows up, I'm supposed to ignore the value he does bring. I'm not sure what there is to agree with. Kyrie was the second best player in the 2016 NBA Finals when people probably had him as the fourth best. Do I think Kyrie on the Blazers would do better than if they had Lillard? Nope. But I would much rather have Kyrie as a second option and ultimately, I think these two are second option players.

Hawkeye15
10-05-2018, 03:43 PM
Hey man, I'm just telling you what I saw. I saw Lillard massively underperform and get stopped by Rondo and Jrue. So much so that people were saying, "Playoff Rondo is a real thing." Now, I'm not doubting Lillard's status as an NBA player but I do believe he played awful last playoffs and it was just bad. I'm giving credit to Irving because, as much as you dislike him, he helped LeBron as well. I mean, Kyrie did his thing and showed up. He was there to score the ball and he did it very well for the Cavs so I'm not sure why just because LeBron shows up, I'm supposed to ignore the value he does bring. I'm not sure what there is to agree with. Kyrie was the second best player in the 2016 NBA Finals when people probably had him as the fourth best. Do I think Kyrie on the Blazers would do better than if they had Lillard? Nope. But I would much rather have Kyrie as a second option and ultimately, I think these two are second option players.

fair enough. I am willing to let Lillard learn and see what happens. Having a defense game plan for you is one thing, being the 2nd option to the 2nd best player ever is another. Kyrie will forever get a little too much pimp juice because he balled out in the 2016 finals. It allows people to overlook much of his game to be honest. And Lillard needs to answer his performance last year, no doubt.

I just ****ing hate Irving's game. playground basketball annoys me to no end. As does lack of consistent effort.

ZH721
10-05-2018, 03:58 PM
fair enough. I am willing to let Lillard learn and see what happens. Having a defense game plan for you is one thing, being the 2nd option to the 2nd best player ever is another. Kyrie will forever get a little too much pimp juice because he balled out in the 2016 finals. It allows people to overlook much of his game to be honest. And Lillard needs to answer his performance last year, no doubt.

I just ****ing hate Irving's game. playground basketball annoys me to no end. As does lack of consistent effort.

I feel like you havenít watched much of Irving on the Celtics.

Hawkeye15
10-05-2018, 04:07 PM
I feel like you havenít watched much of Irving on the Celtics.

not really. Don't have league pass anymore, and starting to care less about a sport where the outcome is decided prior to the season starting.

ewing
10-05-2018, 04:11 PM
not really. Don't have league pass anymore, and starting to care less about a sport where the outcome is decided prior to the season starting.

Is Kyrie winning finals MVP going to be the nail in the coffin?

WaDe03
10-05-2018, 04:17 PM
Yea Kyrie is a far better playoff performer than Lillard who seems to choke unfortunately.

That being said, I want to trade for Lillard After we get Jimmy if the Blazers are doing bad at the deadline.

Dragic Bam and a couple 1sts

Lillard/Wade
JRich
Butler
Olynyk
Whiteside

GREATNESS ONE
10-05-2018, 04:18 PM
Really hope the Celtics fall for it and sign Kyrie to the Max Max.

valade16
10-05-2018, 04:22 PM
Yea Kyrie is a far better playoff performer than Lillard who seems to choke unfortunately.

That being said, I want to trade for Lillard After we get Jimmy if the Blazers are doing bad at the deadline.

Dragic Bam and a couple 1sts

Lillard/Wade
JRich
Butler
Olynyk
Whiteside

If Lillard is on the block, he'll likely command more than that.

Hawkeye15
10-05-2018, 04:26 PM
Is Kyrie winning finals MVP going to be the nail in the coffin?

I thought he was re-signing with the Celtics? Did he say the Warriors and I read it wrong?

WaDe03
10-05-2018, 04:27 PM
If Lillard is on the block, he'll likely command more than that.

Yea more than likely, how many years are left on his contract?

Vee-Rex
10-05-2018, 04:31 PM
Hey man, I'm just telling you what I saw. I saw Lillard massively underperform and get stopped by Rondo and Jrue. So much so that people were saying, "Playoff Rondo is a real thing." Now, I'm not doubting Lillard's status as an NBA player but I do believe he played awful last playoffs and it was just bad. I'm giving credit to Irving because, as much as you dislike him, he helped LeBron as well. I mean, Kyrie did his thing and showed up. He was there to score the ball and he did it very well for the Cavs so I'm not sure why just because LeBron shows up, I'm supposed to ignore the value he does bring. I'm not sure what there is to agree with. Kyrie was the second best player in the 2016 NBA Finals when people probably had him as the fourth best. Do I think Kyrie on the Blazers would do better than if they had Lillard? Nope. But I would much rather have Kyrie as a second option and ultimately, I think these two are second option players.

Very well put

https://media.giphy.com/media/3o7TKF1fSIs1R19B8k/giphy-facebook_s.jpg

valade16
10-05-2018, 04:37 PM
Yea more than likely, how many years are left on his contract?

3, but they are expensive as **** lol

valade16
10-05-2018, 04:38 PM
Very well put

Lillard cannot be a #1 option on a Championship team, he's just not good enough. I don't think him as a 1B to LMA's 1A was even enough. He needs to be a clear #2 to a Top 5-10 #1 level caliber player.

AllBall
10-05-2018, 05:41 PM
Yea more than likely, how many years are left on his contract?

He's signed until the year Lebron Jr. gets drafted, forget it. lol

WaDe03
10-05-2018, 05:51 PM
He's signed until the year Lebron Jr. gets drafted, forget it. lol

Ha there will be options out there! Either clear cap or trade for next years expiring disgruntled star lol!

Jamiecballer
10-05-2018, 06:42 PM
Call it how I see it. You don't have to agree. I have already admitted many times my dislike for Kyrie, and his game. I understand how good he CAN be, I just don't think he consistently brings it at all. Proof is in the numbers. Lillards metrics all show more winning play.I would agree, Lillard has definitely been the better player thus far

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valade16
10-05-2018, 07:35 PM
Statistically it's actually crazy how close Lillard and Kyrie are:

Lillard: 32.2 Pts Per 100 | 8.7 Pts Per 100 | 36.8 3PT% | 21.0 PER | .570 TS% | .164 WS/48 | 3.7 BPM | 24.5 VORP
Kyrie: 33.3 Pts Per 100 | 8.3 Pts Per 100 | 38.8 3PT% | 21.8 PER | .568 TS% | .158 WS/48 | 3.4 BPM 20.2 VORP

Very close.

WaDe03
10-05-2018, 08:02 PM
Statistically it's actually crazy how close Lillard and Kyrie are:

Lillard: 32.2 Pts Per 100 | 8.7 Pts Per 100 | 36.8 3PT% | 21.0 PER | .570 TS% | .164 WS/48 | 3.7 BPM | 24.5 VORP
Kyrie: 33.3 Pts Per 100 | 8.3 Pts Per 100 | 38.8 3PT% | 21.8 PER | .568 TS% | .158 WS/48 | 3.4 BPM 20.2 VORP

Very close.

Yep really only difference is Kyrie plays big in the playoffs and Lillard tends to fold.

Jamiecballer
10-05-2018, 08:27 PM
Statistically it's actually crazy how close Lillard and Kyrie are:

Lillard: 32.2 Pts Per 100 | 8.7 Pts Per 100 | 36.8 3PT% | 21.0 PER | .570 TS% | .164 WS/48 | 3.7 BPM | 24.5 VORP
Kyrie: 33.3 Pts Per 100 | 8.3 Pts Per 100 | 38.8 3PT% | 21.8 PER | .568 TS% | .158 WS/48 | 3.4 BPM 20.2 VORP

Very close.Some statistics, yes. Lillard is the better defender and rebounder. So the question is whether you want 60 games of those numbers, or 80 games plus better defense and intangibles

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ewing
10-05-2018, 09:06 PM
Some statistics, yes. Lillard is the better defender and rebounder. So the question is whether you want 60 games of those numbers, or 80 games plus better defense and intangibles

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Yeah Lillard beats you with his mind


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Jamiecballer
10-06-2018, 12:21 AM
Yeah Lillard beats you with his mind


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkI think that joke was probably funnier the first time. I would suggest allowing 2 to 3 days between use. Think of it like a ha-ha cooling off period.

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FlashBolt
10-06-2018, 01:33 AM
Some statistics, yes. Lillard is the better defender and rebounder. So the question is whether you want 60 games of those numbers, or 80 games plus better defense and intangibles

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Better rebounder/defender are a stretch. They both aren't great at it. Rebounding as a PG has a lot to do with various factors. Refer to Russell Westbrook if you need an example. Some PG's literally quit playing defense and hang around waiting for a rebound. I'd take the guy who plays well in the playoffs because that's really the big difference here other than injuries.

ewing
10-06-2018, 05:56 AM
I think that joke was probably funnier the first time. I would suggest allowing 2 to 3 days between use. Think of it like a ha-ha cooling off period.

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Donít say stupid thing with no bias like intangibles when you just donít like a guy then.


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Jamiecballer
10-06-2018, 07:56 AM
Donít say stupid thing with no bias like intangibles when you just donít like a guy then.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkIs it a stretch to day that Lillard has a reputation for being smarter and harder working? Yes or no.

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ewing
10-06-2018, 08:59 AM
Is it a stretch to day that Lillard has a reputation for being smarter and harder working? Yes or no.

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Yes. If either player brings an "intangible" its Irving b/c he is known as a guy that scores late in games, late in shot clocks, when your teams needs someone to go get a bucket.... Having a safety net is comforting to other players and having a. guy that will shoot a decent % in low % situations defiantly makes you better and isn't easily shown in #s. Dam Lillard is not better b/c of intangibles or rebounding LOL

Like others have said Irving is the clear pick b/c he has killed it in the playoffs while Lillard has **** the bed


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Chronz
10-06-2018, 10:24 AM
Funny how everywhere just seems to be a good fit to mask his deficiencies. maybe he is just good

Funny how good his teams are without him, almost like they might be better equipped to hide his deficiencies.

ewing
10-06-2018, 10:59 AM
Funny how good his teams are without him, almost like they might be better equipped to hide his deficiencies.

Or a few guys are obsessed with the fact that he isn't a great defender like a hell of a lot of other starting guards. He is a very good basketball player, yeah I'd rather he was more of a two way guy but he has no flaws that are making you to take him off the floor or not want him on your team unless you have a great PG already

Jamiecballer
10-06-2018, 11:45 AM
Yes. If either player brings an "intangible" its Irving b/c he is known as a guy that scores late in games, late in shot clocks, when your teams needs someone to go get a bucket.... Having a safety net is comforting to other players and having a. guy that will shoot a decent % in low % situations defiantly makes you better and isn't easily shown in #s. Dam Lillard is not better b/c of intangibles or rebounding LOL

Like others have said Irving is the clear pick b/c he has killed it in the playoffs while Lillard has **** the bed


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkThe popular answer in questions of basketball is frequently the wrong one. Hawkeye and our Blazers fans are right on this one. Defense, rebounding, basketball IQ and health all favor Lillard.

Irving is an excellent scorer but until he accomplishes something great without the greatest threat in the history of the game on the court at the same time I'm taking Lillard.

Btw, be consistent. If you make fun of something as broad as intangibles, don't go on and on about it being in favor Irving. It undermines your point.

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Tg11
10-06-2018, 11:53 AM
Kyrie over Lillard any day are you kidding me? Kyrie has won a ring whereas Lillard has won no rings and not to mention Kyrie before he got hurt was on his way to an MVP caliber like season with the Celtics whereas Lillard has been snubbed time and time again by the NBA through no fault of his own. Dame he should leave Portland but the question is will he? I mean Lillard he has more or less been their franchise player but at the same time the Blazers can't win with Lillard whereas the Celtics we actually have a shot with Kyrie

ewing
10-06-2018, 12:02 PM
The popular answer in questions of basketball is frequently the wrong one. Hawkeye and our Blazers fans are right on this one. Defense, rebounding, basketball IQ and health all favor Lillard.

Irving is an excellent scorer but until he accomplishes something great without the greatest threat in the history of the game on the court at the same time I'm taking Lillard.

Btw, be consistent. If you make fun of something as broad as intangibles, don't go on and on about it being in favor Irving. It undermines your point.

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I see an intangible as something that doesnít show up in most stats and gave an example with an explanation. No offense but you like to say IQ and intangibles without any explanation. Clearly we disagree which is fine I just think some of your supporting points are laughable. Health is legit. IQ and intangibles need some explanation and rebounding isnít close to worth discussing. Neither guy helps you rebound


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Heediot
10-06-2018, 02:32 PM
The guy is more useful vs. useless. Jamie, Hawk and Chronz ain't feeling him. He isn't an Ideal guy to build around, but he's the type of robin to put you over. KD is the ultimate robin. These guys are scorers and are wired in a way where their instinct is to score, as hard as these guys try they are limited in their ability to elevate teammates through their passing/vision.

Yeah like I said about Curry vs. KD defense. In this regard neither Dame or Kyrie are going to destroy people with rebounding or defense or anchor an elite defense and or rebounding team.

ewing
10-06-2018, 03:48 PM
The guy is more useful vs. useless. Jamie, Hawk and Chronz ain't feeling him. He isn't an Ideal guy to build around, but he's the type of robin to put you over. KD is the ultimate robin. These guys are scorers and are wired in a way where their instinct is to score, as hard as these guys try they are limited in their ability to elevate teammates through their passing/vision.

Yeah like I said about Curry vs. KD defense. In this regard neither Dame or Kyrie are going to destroy people with rebounding or defense or anchor an elite defense and or rebounding team.

There are very few guy good enough to be Batman.


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Heediot
10-06-2018, 04:14 PM
There are very few guy good enough to be Batman.


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Yeah MJ, Shaq, Hakeem, Bron, Duncan since I started watching. Kobe may have an argument. Wade is close. Not too sure how much Shaq (in '06) and Pau opened things up for those two. KD and Curry, I don't know, neither have been convinced me in the finals without one another. They have arguments but iffy to me. Dirk offensively might have a case, and has the proof in the pudding for that one year.

If you have a guy that can open up and collapse the defense guys like KD and Kyrie are juicy to have. Wade and Kobe benefited from that type of dynamic.

ewing
10-06-2018, 06:35 PM
Yeah MJ, Shaq, Hakeem, Bron, Duncan since I started watching. Kobe may have an argument. Wade is close. Not too sure how much Shaq (in '06) and Pau opened things up for those two. KD and Curry, I don't know, neither have been convinced me in the finals without one another. They have arguments but iffy to me. Dirk offensively might have a case, and has the proof in the pudding for that one year.

If you have a guy that can open up and collapse the defense guys like KD and Kyrie are juicy to have. Wade and Kobe benefited from that type of dynamic.

I think KD has a Batman skill set. I definitely think Dirk did. I think Nash and Jason Kidd deserve some consideration


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Vee-Rex
10-07-2018, 09:49 AM
Yeah, the days of being able to trash on Kyrie with good reason are starting to disappear.

Feel free to take Dame - he's a helluva player. But it IS a real discussion and moving the goal posts from 'he can't lead a team' to 'his team masks his deficiencies' is evidence of haterism.

Jamiecballer
10-07-2018, 10:48 AM
Yeah, the days of being able to trash on Kyrie with good reason are starting to disappear.

Feel free to take Dame - he's a helluva player. But it IS a real discussion and moving the goal posts from 'he can't lead a team' to 'his team masks his deficiencies' is evidence of haterism.

his performance last season was impressive, but i'm still on the he's a great scorer but not so great a point guard and his defense is terrible train. my position has not shifted.

FlashBolt
10-07-2018, 10:48 AM
Yeah, the days of being able to trash on Kyrie with good reason are starting to disappear.

Feel free to take Dame - he's a helluva player. But it IS a real discussion and moving the goal posts from 'he can't lead a team' to 'his team masks his deficiencies' is evidence of haterism.

I think last season put those arguments to rest. Look at how much more difficult it was for LeBron to get some standard help. He had to turn it up to historic levels for the playoffs. Kyrie Irving relieved so much of LeBron's offensive load while still allowing LeBron to do his thing. Seeing how much Boston was able to share the ball and Kyrie being capable of leading that role as well was enough evidence for me to say that he's more than just a ME-ME-ME scorer who wants the ball every play. Lots of value in a guy who can score but also knows how to share the ball.

FlashBolt
10-07-2018, 10:54 AM
his performance last season was impressive, but i'm still on the he's a great scorer but not so great a point guard and his defense is terrible train. my position has not shifted.

With the Celtics system, you don't really need to be a great point guard. Everyone on the Celtics can create for themselves and others. His defense isn't great but neither are many of the starting PG's in the league, honestly. Curry, Lillard, Harden, Dragic, Walker, etc., His pros definitely outweigh the cons and I think some of you are ignoring that.

Chronz
10-07-2018, 11:19 AM
Or a few guys are obsessed with the fact that he isn't a great defender like a hell of a lot of other starting guards. He is a very good basketball player, yeah I'd rather he was more of a two way guy but he has no flaws that are making you to take him off the floor or not want him on your team unless you have a great PG already

He's an all star, all I heard you say. Hes still got alot to prove

Chronz
10-07-2018, 11:22 AM
Kyrie over Lillard any day are you kidding me? Kyrie has won a ring whereas Lillard has won no rings and not to mention Kyrie before he got hurt was on his way to an MVP caliber like season with the Celtics whereas Lillard has been snubbed time and time again by the NBA through no fault of his own. Dame he should leave Portland but the question is will he? I mean Lillard he has more or less been their franchise player but at the same time the Blazers can't win with Lillard whereas the Celtics we actually have a shot with Kyrie

Who gives a **** bout rings? Before he got hurt? Lol yeah that's kind of the point, in actuality, dame won all nba first team and kyrie was exposed as we got to see what a joke that mvp campaign was as his team proved what it could accomplish without him, suffice it to say, an alleged mvp impact was laughable. Blazers need lillard more than the celtics need kyrie, of course they're better equipped for contention

Chronz
10-07-2018, 11:26 AM
Yeah, the days of being able to trash on Kyrie with good reason are starting to disappear.

Feel free to take Dame - he's a helluva player. But it IS a real discussion and moving the goal posts from 'he can't lead a team' to 'his team masks his deficiencies' is evidence of haterism.

He still hasn't led **** and my argument against him has never changed, both the team he left and joined were quite literally good enough to make the finals without him so let's not pretend as if he's proven anything, dude is lucky he doesn't have to carry ala all nba first teamer Damian lillard

Chronz
10-07-2018, 11:27 AM
With the Celtics system, you don't really need to be a great point guard. Everyone on the Celtics can create for themselves and others. His defense isn't great but neither are many of the starting PG's in the league, honestly. Curry, Lillard, Harden, Dragic, Walker, etc., His pros definitely outweigh the cons and I think some of you are ignoring that.

Kyrie makes those guys look like pretty good defenders

Jamiecballer
10-07-2018, 01:08 PM
With the Celtics system, you don't really need to be a great point guard. Everyone on the Celtics can create for themselves and others. His defense isn't great but neither are many of the starting PG's in the league, honestly. Curry, Lillard, Harden, Dragic, Walker, etc., His pros definitely outweigh the cons and I think some of you are ignoring that.

that's totally not true, you are mistaking the argument. the question was whether he was better than Lillard. i am not questioning that he is an excellent player whose pro's outweigh his cons. nobody is calling this guy DeRozan.

Jamiecballer
10-07-2018, 01:11 PM
Who gives a **** bout rings? Before he got hurt? Lol yeah that's kind of the point, in actuality, dame won all nba first team and kyrie was exposed as we got to see what a joke that mvp campaign was as his team proved what it could accomplish without him, suffice it to say, an alleged mvp impact was laughable. Blazers need lillard more than the celtics need kyrie, of course they're better equipped for contention

true that. nice having you on my side for once. but honestly, yeah, his post was high on nonsense for sure. the largest difference between Kyrie and Lillard is which team ended up drafting them, ie circumstance. he seems to know that since he brought up the fact that Lillard is frequently snubbed. he literally can't see how biased he is but he's so close.

Vee-Rex
10-07-2018, 01:52 PM
He still hasn't led **** and my argument against him has never changed, both the team he left and joined were quite literally good enough to make the finals without him so let's not pretend as if he's proven anything, dude is lucky he doesn't have to carry ala all nba first teamer Damian lillard

Boston's ability to be a finals contender without Kyrie has a lot to do with the East simply being weaker. I think the general consensus is that if they had Kyrie, they'd have beat the Cavs in the ECF.

Boston fans up and down multiple forums say that there's a CLEAR difference between their team with and without Kyrie, so your attempt to diminish his impact as negligible is pretty laughable.

He doesn't have to prove **** to you or to his haters - the rational fans understand that he's a pretty damn good player and his team missed him.

Vee-Rex
10-07-2018, 02:17 PM
If anyone is lucky, it's the fact that fanbases don't have a huge presence on the main forum here. Dudes like Chronz would get torn apart on the big site if they tried to spew the **** they do on here.

WaDe03
10-07-2018, 03:00 PM
If anyone is lucky, it's the fact that fanbases don't have a huge presence on the main forum here. Dudes like Chronz would get torn apart on the big site if they tried to spew the **** they do on here.

A lot of these kids would brother.

Jamiecballer
10-07-2018, 03:22 PM
Boston's ability to be a finals contender without Kyrie has a lot to do with the East simply being weaker. I think the general consensus is that if they had Kyrie, they'd have beat the Cavs in the ECF.

Boston fans up and down multiple forums say that there's a CLEAR difference between their team with and without Kyrie, so your attempt to diminish his impact as negligible is pretty laughable.

umm. should we just be like, "oh ok, you guys say there is a clear difference between when Kyrie was playing vs when he wasn't" or should someone say "hold up. you guys were 15-8 when he didn't play. that's a tidy little .652 winning % vs the .678 when he did." statistically the difference is fairly small. i'm going to chalk that up to hometown fans getting themselves worked up for the 2018-19 season.

it's nice to imagine adding the ultimate bailout option to the team that made the ECF without considering any of the tradeoffs.

ewing
10-07-2018, 06:01 PM
umm. should we just be like, "oh ok, you guys say there is a clear difference between when Kyrie was playing vs when he wasn't" or should someone say "hold up. you guys were 15-8 when he didn't play. that's a tidy little .652 winning % vs the .678 when he did." statistically the difference is fairly small. i'm going to chalk that up to hometown fans getting themselves worked up for the 2018-19 season.

it's nice to imagine adding the ultimate bailout option to the team that made the ECF without considering any of the tradeoffs.

I thought the Raps were the best team in the East [emoji3]


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Jamiecballer
10-07-2018, 10:04 PM
I thought the Raps were the best team in the East [emoji3]


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkThey were/are

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Raps08-09 Champ
10-07-2018, 10:54 PM
He also once said he wouldn't leave the Cavs like Lebron.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgH1cx1u4MQ

Chronz
10-07-2018, 11:04 PM
If anyone is lucky, it's the fact that fanbases don't have a huge presence on the main forum here. Dudes like Chronz would get torn apart on the big site if they tried to spew the **** they do on here.

Nah. I was crushing fan bases in my prime

Vee-Rex
10-08-2018, 01:17 AM
umm. should we just be like, "oh ok, you guys say there is a clear difference between when Kyrie was playing vs when he wasn't" or should someone say "hold up. you guys were 15-8 when he didn't play. that's a tidy little .652 winning % vs the .678 when he did." statistically the difference is fairly small. i'm going to chalk that up to hometown fans getting themselves worked up for the 2018-19 season.

it's nice to imagine adding the ultimate bailout option to the team that made the ECF without considering any of the tradeoffs.

Very small sample size (without Kyrie) with a myriad of factors you couldn't begin to quantify if you were the smartest man on the planet.

Kyrie's biggest impact comes in the playoffs, as he has demonstrated that he plays better there on both ends of the floor. I watched my Cavs obliterate the Raptors and struggle mightily against the Celtics, with the huge saving grace being the fact that the C's couldn't generate points on the board. They couldn't score worth a lick.

But if you think Kyrie being in the game means guards like George Hill and JR Smith and Jordan Clarkson are suddenly gonna light it up and that Kyrie's scoring versatility and prowess in grind-it-out type of games (the entire ECF for the most part) wouldn't have been a positive tradeoff for his defense, then nothing I can say will convince you that Kyrie's impact is more than negligible.

Kyrie is the same guy that got torched by Lowry every playoffs? Oh nope - didn't happen. Isaiah Thomas? Nope. Stephen Curry? Nope.

This ridiculously child-like notion that his defense completely offsets his offense and makes him a null player is so naive, as if an influx of talent alone wouldn't measurably impact the Celtics in a positive manner.

Again - no one has to be convinced. Kyrie is a borderline top 20-25 player IMO, but for some it may be top 30. However, a silly argument is a silly argument. We've seen multiple stars get injured and their team holds the reins steady, and only the truly naive people who seem to lack critical thinking (or are simply haters) are like, "DURRRR THE SPURS ARE NEARLY THE SAME WITHOUT KAWHI. DURRRR THE PELICANS ARE NEARLY THE SAME WITHOUT DAVIS."

ewing
10-08-2018, 08:08 AM
They were/are

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They sure were Jamie. They sure were


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Hawkeye15
10-08-2018, 09:35 AM
If anyone is lucky, it's the fact that fanbases don't have a huge presence on the main forum here. Dudes like Chronz would get torn apart on the big site if they tried to spew the **** they do on here.

It's funny, Chronz used to be the most intelligent poster here, easily. But the last couple of years, he really hasn't pushed his arguments past the point of declaration. Meaning, he isn't wrong, he just doesn't put in effort to defend his point(s). That happens dude. I used to watch a ton of ball, and dig into the stats, my arguments were very detailed, blah blah blah. I just don't care enough anymore, and this sites posters the last few years have been down. Seriously. The intelligence here is not good when it comes to basketball.

He is dead right. Irving hasn't proven anything other than he stepped up to be a huge Robin in one series. His teams don't miss him when he plays, and his defense has never even scratched the acceptable level.

He reminds me of Iverson. Polarizing, and the basic, archaic basketball fan in us likes to see guys getting sexy buckets. It distorts our view of the player even. Irving, is an all star player. He is nothing more. His scoring is sexy, which gets you overrated. Always has, always will.

Hawkeye15
10-08-2018, 09:36 AM
umm. should we just be like, "oh ok, you guys say there is a clear difference between when Kyrie was playing vs when he wasn't" or should someone say "hold up. you guys were 15-8 when he didn't play. that's a tidy little .652 winning % vs the .678 when he did." statistically the difference is fairly small. i'm going to chalk that up to hometown fans getting themselves worked up for the 2018-19 season.

it's nice to imagine adding the ultimate bailout option to the team that made the ECF without considering any of the tradeoffs.

any team Irving has won on, has had either LeBron James, or talent galore beside him. He has never carried anything in his career. Nothing. Toss him on Portland instead of Lillard, see what happens..

Hawkeye15
10-08-2018, 09:40 AM
Very small sample size (without Kyrie) with a myriad of factors you couldn't begin to quantify if you were the smartest man on the planet.

Kyrie's biggest impact comes in the playoffs, as he has demonstrated that he plays better there on both ends of the floor. I watched my Cavs obliterate the Raptors and struggle mightily against the Celtics, with the huge saving grace being the fact that the C's couldn't generate points on the board. They couldn't score worth a lick.

But if you think Kyrie being in the game means guards like George Hill and JR Smith and Jordan Clarkson are suddenly gonna light it up and that Kyrie's scoring versatility and prowess in grind-it-out type of games (the entire ECF for the most part) wouldn't have been a positive tradeoff for his defense, then nothing I can say will convince you that Kyrie's impact is more than negligible.

Kyrie is the same guy that got torched by Lowry every playoffs? Oh nope - didn't happen. Isaiah Thomas? Nope. Stephen Curry? Nope.

This ridiculously child-like notion that his defense completely offsets his offense and makes him a null player is so naive, as if an influx of talent alone wouldn't measurably impact the Celtics in a positive manner.

Again - no one has to be convinced. Kyrie is a borderline top 20-25 player IMO, but for some it may be top 30. However, a silly argument is a silly argument. We've seen multiple stars get injured and their team holds the reins steady, and only the truly naive people who seem to lack critical thinking (or are simply haters) are like, "DURRRR THE SPURS ARE NEARLY THE SAME WITHOUT KAWHI. DURRRR THE PELICANS ARE NEARLY THE SAME WITHOUT DAVIS."

all our fighting and we basically agree where he is at. I have him 25-30. Seems about right to me. I also see sites ranking him top 15, which is laughable. I never see sites ranking him 40-50, so the balance is still out of skew, which is why I pick on him.

Heediot
10-08-2018, 09:43 AM
It's funny, Chronz used to be the most intelligent poster here, easily. But the last couple of years, he really hasn't pushed his arguments past the point of declaration. Meaning, he isn't wrong, he just doesn't put in effort to defend his point(s). That happens dude.

He is dead right. Irving hasn't proven anything other than he stepped up to be a huge Robin in one series. His teams don't miss him when he plays, and his defense has never even scratched the acceptable level.

He reminds me of Iverson. Polarizing, and the basic, archaic basketball fan in us likes to see guys getting sexy buckets. It distorts our view of the player even. Irving, is an all star player. He is nothing more. His scoring is sexy, which gets you overrated. Always has, always will.

Yeah I'm sure Kyrie's offense wouldn't have been needed after the Celtics bricked their 2nd half game 7 vs. the Cavs. His offense was exactly what was needed vs. the Cavs series.

In Boston the guy is learning to become more of a distributor, his role in Cleveland was to get buckets. Bron was the facilitator their. He is not a natural play-maker like Bron is, but he is trying now. He is playing within the framework of the team both on offense and defense. You still pine to the Kyrie you see in Cleveland but he's trying to expand his game in Boston. Different team different roles and assignments. He isn`t as selfish as your preconceived notions of him are.

He is a top 15-20 player regular season player, top 5 playoff scorer. I don`t think his playoff scoring is over-rated because he can counter defenses like few others in the history of the game no matter how stingy the scenario and yes that is invaluable in the playoffs. Just ask Houston and Boston in game 7 of the cfs.

Also great systems run by guys like Stevens and Pops can make up for individual talent in the regular season .But when push comes to shove in the deeper playoff rounds, you need that individual greatness as KL showed vs. GS, and Kyrie is capable of in a series against stingy defense. With how good Stevens has that defense playing with or without Kyrie. That extra oomph and ability to get his would of been very impactful done deal. Im in the camp that he does make a difference regardless of regular season advanced stats. Teams like The Bud Hawks and the Casey Raptors of late would be going to the finals if you just count on regular season metrics.
`

Hawkeye15
10-08-2018, 09:49 AM
Yeah I'm sure Kyrie's offense wouldn't have been needed after the Celtics bricked their 2nd half game 7 vs. the Cavs. His offense was exactly what was needed vs. the Cavs series.

In Boston the guy is learning to become more of a distributor, his role in Cleveland was to get buckets. Bron was the facilitator their. He is not a natural play-maker like Bron is, but he is trying now. He is playing within the framework of the team both on offense and defense. You still pine to the Kyrie you see in Cleveland but he's trying to expand his game in Boston. Different team different roles and assignments. He isn`t as selfish as your preconceived notions of him are.

He is a top 15-20 player regular season player, top 5 playoff scorer. I don`t think his playoff scoring is over-rated because he can counter defenses like few others in the history of the game no matter how stingy the scenario and yes that is invaluable in the playoffs. Just ask Houston and Boston in game 7 of the cfs.

Also great systems run by guys like Stevens and Pops can make up for individual talent in the regular season .But when push comes to shove in the deeper playoff rounds, you need that individual greatness as KL showed vs. GS, and Kyrie is capable of in a series against stingy defense. With how good Stevens has that defense playing with or without Kyrie. That extra oomph and ability to get his would of been very impactful done deal. Im in the camp that he does make a difference regardless of regular season advanced stats. Teams like The Bud Hawks and the Casey Raptors of late would be going to the finals if you just count on regular season metrics.
`

despite the fact we don't agree on Irving, your first sentence brings up yet another concern. Maybe stop getting hurt all the time..

btw, the Celtics were missing a better player than Irving all season long.

Heediot
10-08-2018, 09:54 AM
despite the fact we don't agree on Irving, your first sentence brings up yet another concern. Maybe stop getting hurt all the time..

btw, the Celtics were missing a better player than Irving all season long.

I can see some side of the arguments where some posters aren`t feeling him whether it`s be style of play or court awareness. I just don`t agree with the claims of him not being a significant contributor in the playoffs and how people keep thinking he is a selfish mofo. I do agree he needs to be more healthy consistently though. It is what it is.

Hawkeye15
10-08-2018, 10:00 AM
I can see some side of the arguments where some posters aren`t feeling him whether it`s be style of play or court awareness. I just don`t agree with the claims of him not being a significant contributor in the playoffs and how people keep thinking he is a selfish mofo. I do agree he needs to be more healthy consistently though. It is what it is.

nobody said he doesn't contribute. He has the "clutch" gene, no doubt. But that is a situational player. By no means is Irving memorable, this fight will never be brought up 15 years from now.

He just gets pimped like he is such a difference maker. Um, no he isn't. His teams don't miss him when he is gone. Sure he COULD help them, but they don't need him, ala the actual best players.

Heediot
10-08-2018, 10:07 AM
nobody said he doesn't contribute. He has the "clutch" gene, no doubt. But that is a situational player. By no means is Irving memorable, this fight will never be brought up 15 years from now.

He just gets pimped like he is such a difference maker. Um, no he isn't. His teams don't miss him when he is gone. Sure he COULD help them, but they don't need him, ala the actual best players.

Yeah regular season Boston has proven to be a well oiled machine with or without Kyrie, the past few years. Whomever gets injured they still chug along, But we`ve seen how limited they can be come the playoffs without that legit number 1 scoring guy. I`m sure Boston was chugging along when Horford was injured too, does that make him less valuable.

Who`s pimping him to be a top 10 guy or all nba first team. Some just think in a one game do or die they`ll take him over Curry. He has his flaws but what he`s good at gets more valuable the DEEPER you get in the playoffs. Yeah his production could be replaced in the regular season and first few playoff rounds, but the dynamics change later on which is all I`m pimping.

ewing
10-08-2018, 10:26 AM
nobody said he doesn't contribute. He has the "clutch" gene, no doubt. But that is a situational player. By no means is Irving memorable, this fight will never be brought up 15 years from now.

He just gets pimped like he is such a difference maker. Um, no he isn't. His teams don't miss him when he is gone. Sure he COULD help them, but they don't need him, ala the actual best players.

Iím pretty sure the Cavs needed him.


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TrueFan420
10-08-2018, 10:31 AM
Iím pretty sure the Cavs needed him.


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The Cavs most definitely needed him. As did the Celtics after he got injured. He has flaws but he's still a very talented player.

Hawkeye15
10-08-2018, 10:46 AM
Iím pretty sure the Cavs needed him.


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I mean, he is an all star level player. The continued point I am making, is his teams have never really missed him when he doesn't play. It's in the numbers. Did he ball out in one series? Yep. If we want to define a guy from a small portion of his career we could probably elevate another 30% of athletes to star level.

Let Irving be in James role. Just once. Let's see what happens. The dude has never had to carry squat.

Hawkeye15
10-08-2018, 10:47 AM
The Cavs most definitely needed him. As did the Celtics after he got injured. He has flaws but he's still a very talented player.

yes he is. But I won't drop it because I see sites ranking him top 15-20, and people here talking about him like he is Steph Curry. I mean there is an entire thread on that literal subject. It's a ****ing joke.

Heediot
10-08-2018, 11:02 AM
yes he is. But I won't drop it because I see sites ranking him top 15-20, and people here talking about him like he is Steph Curry. I mean there is an entire thread on that literal subject. It's a ****ing joke.

That`s your problem. Most or all are saying he is one of the better Robins. That`s where the convo with Lillard was gravitating towards. Most here don`t believe either guys are ones to carry you to a title all things being equal. Lillard will be the more effective regular season player, Kyrie would be the better scorer in the playoffs. Lillard may be the better guy to build around, but Kyrie would more likely put you over in the playoffs.

With the way Boston is structured with a nice defense his offensive skills might be enough to put them over at least to the finals, as no one is beating GS. Boston`s ORTG goes down without him on the floor, their DRating is probably better or same without him, so like jaimec said there is a tradeoff in some regards. I am sure Boston would trade some of that DRating for ORating against the Cavs for sure though. He would be somewhat of a Batman here, but most would still assume he isn`t a certified Batman even if he puts them over in ways.

ewing
10-08-2018, 11:27 AM
I mean, he is an all star level player. The continued point I am making, is his teams have never really missed him when he doesn't play. It's in the numbers. Did he ball out in one series? Yep. If we want to define a guy from a small portion of his career we could probably elevate another 30% of athletes to star level.

Let Irving be in James role. Just once. Let's see what happens. The dude has never had to carry squat.

Sure they do. The Cavs wouldnít have won the title. Boston would been an odds on favorite to come out of the East. They needed and missed. The fact that they didnít turn into a dumpster fire without him proves 0
You know you are wrong so you are taking both sides of your mouth. First you say his teams donít need him at all then you say he canít plays James role to defend the original ****** take.

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Hawkeye15
10-08-2018, 11:44 AM
Sure they do. The Cavs wouldnít have won the title. Boston would been an odds on favorite to come out of the East. They needed and missed. The fact that they didnít turn into a dumpster fire without him proves 0
You know you are wrong so you are taking both sides of your mouth. First you say his teams donít need him at all then you say he canít plays James role to defend the original ****** take.

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Irving is overrated. I aint wrong. never seen him ranked consistently correct.

Does James need an all star talent to win a title? Yes. Can Kyrie be the best player on a chip team? No. Luckily for him, he has never had to be since James joined him.

Hawkeye15
10-08-2018, 11:48 AM
That`s your problem. Most or all are saying he is one of the better Robins. That`s where the convo with Lillard was gravitating towards. Most here don`t believe either guys are ones to carry you to a title all things being equal. Lillard will be the more effective regular season player, Kyrie would be the better scorer in the playoffs. Lillard may be the better guy to build around, but Kyrie would more likely put you over in the playoffs.

With the way Boston is structured with a nice defense his offensive skills might be enough to put them over at least to the finals, as no one is beating GS. Boston`s ORTG goes down without him on the floor, their DRating is probably better or same without him, so like jaimec said there is a tradeoff in some regards. I am sure Boston would trade some of that DRating for ORating against the Cavs for sure though. He would be somewhat of a Batman here, but most would still assume he isn`t a certified Batman even if he puts them over in ways.

I think there are plenty of better Robin's. If we want to say Boston could have used him, sure they could have. But they don't depend on Irving to win.

ewing
10-08-2018, 11:48 AM
Irving is overrated. I aint wrong. never seen him ranked consistently correct.

Does James need an all star talent to win a title? Yes. Can Kyrie be the best player on a chip team? No. Luckily for him, he has never had to be since James joined him.

Would the Cavs won without James? No. Congrats you made another completely unrelated point to back up your stance.


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Heediot
10-08-2018, 11:50 AM
Irving is overrated. I aint wrong. never seen him ranked consistently correct.

Does James need an all star talent to win a title? Yes. Can Kyrie be the best player on a chip team? No. Luckily for him, he has never had to be since James joined him.

I think if GS didn`t exist. It isn`t inconceivable that Kyrie is the best player on the C`s and they win a ship as currently constructed. It`s like the Pistons with Chauncey or the Spurs when they beat the heat neither team had any all nba 1st or 2nd teamers iirc.

Looking over the selections, TP and Ben Wallace were all nba 2nd teamers in the respective years. But it goes to show you can skin a cat in different ways.

ewing
10-08-2018, 11:59 AM
I think if GS didn`t exist. It isn`t inconceivable that Kyrie is the best player on the C`s and they win a ship as currently constructed. It`s like the Pistons with Chauncey or the Spurs when they beat the heat neither team had any all nba 1st or 2nd teamers iirc.

Looking over the selections, TP and Ben Wallace were all nba 2nd teamers in the respective years. But it goes to show you can skin a cat in different ways.

I plan on betting that it happens. If healthy Boston is the best team in the NBA this year and wins a chip. You are right Kyrie isnít the Dirk or LeBron type leading man but he will be the best on a balanced team that wins a chip

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Cal827
10-08-2018, 01:21 PM
I just hope that team's defensive dynamic remains strong enough to hide him (though I don't have much doubt on that since Boston's defense is elite, as they showed).

Definitely wouldn't invest a max contract in him, but Boston will pretty much have no choice (assuming he actually does keep his word and will resign with them). His ability to push that offense is the reason that we consider the Celts a title threat.

Hawkeye15
10-08-2018, 01:51 PM
I think if GS didn`t exist. It isn`t inconceivable that Kyrie is the best player on the C`s and they win a ship as currently constructed. It`s like the Pistons with Chauncey or the Spurs when they beat the heat neither team had any all nba 1st or 2nd teamers iirc.

Looking over the selections, TP and Ben Wallace were all nba 2nd teamers in the respective years. But it goes to show you can skin a cat in different ways.

Hayward is the best player on Boston.

Jamiecballer
10-08-2018, 03:10 PM
Very small sample size (without Kyrie) with a myriad of factors you couldn't begin to quantify if you were the smartest man on the planet.

Kyrie's biggest impact comes in the playoffs, as he has demonstrated that he plays better there on both ends of the floor. I watched my Cavs obliterate the Raptors and struggle mightily against the Celtics, with the huge saving grace being the fact that the C's couldn't generate points on the board. They couldn't score worth a lick.

But if you think Kyrie being in the game means guards like George Hill and JR Smith and Jordan Clarkson are suddenly gonna light it up and that Kyrie's scoring versatility and prowess in grind-it-out type of games (the entire ECF for the most part) wouldn't have been a positive tradeoff for his defense, then nothing I can say will convince you that Kyrie's impact is more than negligible.

Kyrie is the same guy that got torched by Lowry every playoffs? Oh nope - didn't happen. Isaiah Thomas? Nope. Stephen Curry? Nope.

This ridiculously child-like notion that his defense completely offsets his offense and makes him a null player is so naive, as if an influx of talent alone wouldn't measurably impact the Celtics in a positive manner.

Again - no one has to be convinced. Kyrie is a borderline top 20-25 player IMO, but for some it may be top 30. However, a silly argument is a silly argument. We've seen multiple stars get injured and their team holds the reins steady, and only the truly naive people who seem to lack critical thinking (or are simply haters) are like, "DURRRR THE SPURS ARE NEARLY THE SAME WITHOUT KAWHI. DURRRR THE PELICANS ARE NEARLY THE SAME WITHOUT DAVIS."Strawmen arguments. I didn't say what you are suggesting, in fact I explicitly stated the opposite in a previous post.

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Hawkeye15
10-08-2018, 03:12 PM
I plan on betting that it happens. If healthy Boston is the best team in the NBA this year and wins a chip. You are right Kyrie isnít the Dirk or LeBron type leading man but he will be the best on a balanced team that wins a chip

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if we see the Hayward we saw pre-injury, he is the best player on that team. Unless Kyrie improves over his previous level(s).

Jamiecballer
10-08-2018, 03:16 PM
Sure they do. The Cavs wouldnít have won the title. Boston would been an odds on favorite to come out of the East. They needed and missed. The fact that they didnít turn into a dumpster fire without him proves 0
You know you are wrong so you are taking both sides of your mouth. First you say his teams donít need him at all then you say he canít plays James role to defend the original ****** take.

Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkGuys... the Celtics had a pythag record of 51-31. They weren't a powerhouse with or without Irving. People are right to be excited about Boston but it should rest 100% on Tatum and Browns improvement, and Hayward.

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Hawkeye15
10-08-2018, 03:20 PM
Guys... the Celtics had a pythag record of 51-31. They weren't a powerhouse with or without Irving. People are right to be excited about Boston but it should rest 100% on Tatum and Browns improvement.

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getting Hayward back won't hurt.

Kyrie is an excellent player. By no means an all NBA talent, but with a healthy Hayward/Irving, and the progression of Tatum/Brown, along with coaching/defense, that team is a contender......to lose to GS in 6-7 games. But they are an awesome team potentially.

Heediot
10-08-2018, 03:34 PM
Hayward is the best player on Boston.

That could be possible, if he returns to health. Especially for regular season metrics. I dont think Hayward is going to be the best player this year just due to health and coming back from such a severe injury,but you never know. By Tatums year 3 or 4, I`m thinking he will be the best of Bunch anyhow. So Kyrie has probably this year to win as the top dog, which is unlikely anyway.

Hawkeye15
10-08-2018, 03:50 PM
That could be possible, if he returns to health. Especially for regular season metrics. I dont think Hayward is going to be the best player this year just due to health and coming back from such a severe injury,but you never know. By Tatums year 3 or 4, I`m thinking he will be the best of Bunch anyhow. So Kyrie has probably this year to win as the top dog, which is unlikely anyway.

yeah, with quite a bit of talent on the wings/perimeter, it will be interesting to see where Hayward lands in the playcalling. My statement was more so due to past production.

Look, I ****ing don't Irving's game. I make no attempt to hide it. But it's because I don't like playground style, no defense, inconsistency when it comes to playing hard, etc. I won't deny the dude has turned it on at the absolute most critical time(s). But I also truly believe players like Irving, or Iverson, get overrated because of how sexy they can score buckets at times. And I also understand people hate them because of the fact they tend to be overrated. I know I lie in that bed, and fully admit it. So the truth lies in the middle.

As I stated, I have him 25-30 or so. But so many sites have him 10-20, and toss him on the elite level, when he isn't. I never see the other end of the spectrum, so I keep sticking my nose in this stupid argument. Like I feel the need to balance the Kyrie universe or something. It's wasted effort, I know that.

ewing
10-08-2018, 04:37 PM
yeah, with quite a bit of talent on the wings/perimeter, it will be interesting to see where Hayward lands in the playcalling. My statement was more so due to past production.

Look, I ****ing don't Irving's game. I make no attempt to hide it. But it's because I don't like playground style, no defense, inconsistency when it comes to playing hard, etc. I won't deny the dude has turned it on at the absolute most critical time(s). But I also truly believe players like Irving, or Iverson, get overrated because of how sexy they can score buckets at times. And I also understand people hate them because of the fact they tend to be overrated. I know I lie in that bed, and fully admit it. So the truth lies in the middle.

As I stated, I have him 25-30 or so. But so many sites have him 10-20, and toss him on the elite level, when he isn't. I never see the other end of the spectrum, so I keep sticking my nose in this stupid argument. Like I feel the need to balance the Kyrie universe or something. It's wasted effort, I know that.

If he is the 25 best player in the league he is arguably the best player on the Boston Celtics and the Boston Celtics are a title contender.


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ewing
10-08-2018, 04:38 PM
Guys... the Celtics had a pythag record of 51-31. They weren't a powerhouse with or without Irving. People are right to be excited about Boston but it should rest 100% on Tatum and Browns improvement, and Hayward.

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Dude you still think the Raps were best team in the East last year


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ZH721
10-08-2018, 04:48 PM
nobody said he doesn't contribute. He has the "clutch" gene, no doubt. But that is a situational player. By no means is Irving memorable, this fight will never be brought up 15 years from now.

He just gets pimped like he is such a difference maker. Um, no he isn't. His teams don't miss him when he is gone. Sure he COULD help them, but they don't need him, ala the actual best players.

Kyrie isnít a difference maker?

Hawkeye15
10-08-2018, 04:48 PM
If he is the 25 best player in the league he is arguably the best player on the Boston Celtics and the Boston Celtics are a title contender.


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I mean, I guess the Pistons had to have a best player years ago...

Jamiecballer
10-08-2018, 04:48 PM
Dude you still think the Raps were best team in the East last year


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkOf course I do. Were you impressed by Milwaukee? How about Philly's performance in the second round? Our guys choked - led as usual by Demar. And Boston took a bad Cavs team 7. Simple as that.

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Hawkeye15
10-08-2018, 04:49 PM
Kyrie isnít a difference maker?

not consistently, he isn't. He was in the 2016 finals. But his teams have historically been just fine when he sits.

Jamiecballer
10-08-2018, 04:51 PM
not consistently, he isn't. He was in the 2016 finals. But his teams have historically been just fine when he sits.Its bad for there narrative if you look at actual objective data. So stop.

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ZH721
10-08-2018, 04:59 PM
Its bad for there narrative if you look at actual objective data. So stop.

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You mean like Kyrie putting up 24.4 PPG on a .610 TS% and a 25.0 PER?

ZH721
10-08-2018, 05:00 PM
not consistently, he isn't. He was in the 2016 finals. But his teams have historically been just fine when he sits.

The Celtics couldnít score against the Cavs during away games that series (and game 7). Kyrie is 100% a difference maker. They win that series if heís healthy.

Hawkeye15
10-08-2018, 05:07 PM
The Celtics couldnít score against the Cavs during away games that series (and game 7). Kyrie is 100% a difference maker. They win that series if heís healthy.

Maybe they do, depends which Kyrie shows up. Look, we know for a fact, his teams have won without him. Does it mean he doesn't help? Of course not, but he isn't the difference between winning and losing consistently, that has been proven. If you were hoping for the Kyrie from the 2016 finals then cool. But the chances are the same you get the Kyrie that doesn't really move the needle in the W/L column.

Numbers don't lie. He is like 26, so he has time to move the needle and make a case for what his reputation suggests he is.

Heediot
10-08-2018, 05:19 PM
Maybe they do, depends which Kyrie shows up. Look, we know for a fact, his teams have won without him. Does it mean he doesn't help? Of course not, but he isn't the difference between winning and losing consistently, that has been proven. If you were hoping for the Kyrie from the 2016 finals then cool. But the chances are the same you get the Kyrie that doesn't really move the needle in the W/L column.

Numbers don't lie. He is like 26, so he has time to move the needle and make a case for what his reputation suggests he is.

Just curious about his playoff metrics vs. regular season.

Isolated, sure you can say his numbers show he doesn`t move the needle as the way you interpret it. Dynamics change though and basketball is fluid and not static. Some guys and teams with nice regular season metrics change and don`t translate in the playoffs especially when it gets deeper or when bad match-ups and or different defenses are thrown at the player and or team. I am sure his 18 playoffs were a drop off from his 17 playoffs. But unlike most all star caliber guards and wings his numbers actually are near the same and or better in the playoffs in the overall scheme of thins. I think he`s the type of offensive threat that can handle counter playoffs defense quite well 1st or 2nd option.

Hawkeye15
10-08-2018, 05:23 PM
Just curious about his playoff metrics vs. regular season.

Isolated, sure you can say his numbers show he doesn`t move the needle as the way you interpret it. Dynamics change though and basketball is fluid and not static. Some guys and teams with nice regular season metrics change and don`t translate in the playoffs especially when it gets deeper or when bad match-ups and or different defenses are thrown at the player and or team. I am sure his 17 playoffs were a drop off from his 18 playoffs. But unlike most all star caliber guards and wings his numbers actually are near the same and or better in the playoffs. I think he`s the type of offensive threat that can handle counter playoffs defense quite well 1st or 2nd option.

I don't disagree with any of this. This all started when I mentioned Boston is a perfect situation for him, because they can hide his weaknesses (defense mostly). From there I again got drug down the path of this ridiculous argument. But my point was, Irving has plenty of value if you can deal with his big weakness, which is he won't guard anyone. Boston provides this cover.

Is Irving a superstar elite player? hell no. Does he guard anyone? Hell no. Can he provide buckets under pressure? Hell yes. So a team like Boston, is a perfect fit. Rozier/Smart will handle guarding the other teams best guard. Irving can go score and develop his playmaking skills under Stevens.

Jamiecballer
10-08-2018, 06:56 PM
You mean like Kyrie putting up 24.4 PPG on a .610 TS% and a 25.0 PER?No, that's not what Hawkeye said at all.

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ewing
10-08-2018, 07:28 PM
I mean, I guess the Pistons had to have a best player years ago...

Yep and Billup was a damn good player. I donít think hes LeBron or anything but he is absolutely is a difference maker. Dudes not Harold Minner lol


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Ishkabibble
10-08-2018, 09:15 PM
Ya know fwiw, Irving's defensive rating was 45th out of 195 player in 2017-18, just behind Draymond Green and Shabazz Napier and just in front of Paul George and Otto Porter. You can question this metrics accuracy or the methodology but at least its some sort of measurable and what else do we have? The so-often-overstated "defensive reputation?"
Irving bottomed out 3 years ago when I think Isaiah was the only lower-rated defensive PG in the league. He's not a good defender but I thought he did a serviceable job last season. And I do believe his effort was improved.
He also says he feels better than anytime since 2015 since getting the screws and wire removed from his knee. Either way, at least last season, I don't believe he was as atrocious as defender as you think and his rating reflected that. And let's not forget, there are plenty of defenders that're either garbage or just plain overrated. And if they play on a crap team many of their lousy games go unnoticed. Avery Bradley's got a rep as an excellent defender and he hasn't played good defense in 3 years.

ZH721
10-08-2018, 10:08 PM
Maybe they do, depends which Kyrie shows up. Look, we know for a fact, his teams have won without him. Does it mean he doesn't help? Of course not, but he isn't the difference between winning and losing consistently, that has been proven. If you were hoping for the Kyrie from the 2016 finals then cool. But the chances are the same you get the Kyrie that doesn't really move the needle in the W/L column.

Numbers don't lie. He is like 26, so he has time to move the needle and make a case for what his reputation suggests he is.

What do you mean numbers donít lie? His numbers are very, very good.

ZH721
10-08-2018, 10:10 PM
No, that's not what Hawkeye said at all.

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The post was in response to you...

ďActual objective data.Ē

I put in right in front of you.

Hawkeye15
10-08-2018, 10:57 PM
What do you mean numbers donít lie? His numbers are very, very good.

His scoring numbers look great. His impact to winning numbers have never been all NBA level at all. His teams have spent a lot of time winning no problem without him, despite his timely outbursts here and there. He is a proven playoff performer at times, and his game appeals to the archaic basketball fan in us all. But he is so poor at some areas of the game it can negate his scoring at times.

Jamiecballer
10-08-2018, 11:02 PM
The post was in response to you...

ďActual objective data.Ē

I put in right in front of you.


Well I directly responded to Hawkeye who made it quite clear what was being discussed. I'm quite sure you know what he said too, dont play coy.

And just in case you truly missed what he said, it's right there before my post so feel free to take a gander.

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ewing
10-09-2018, 07:25 AM
His scoring numbers look great. His impact to winning numbers have never been all NBA level at all. His teams have spent a lot of time winning no problem without him, despite his timely outbursts here and there. He is a proven playoff performer at times, and his game appeals to the archaic basketball fan in us all. But he is so poor at some areas of the game it can negate his scoring at times.

Everybody but Jamie knows good teams win 50 plus in the regular season and donít give a **** so long as they are in. Seriously only Jamie looks at it and goes well team A won 62 games with a point differential of blah blah while team be won 58 with blah blah so they must be better. Dude puts up sick offensive numbers without limiting teammates touches or opportunities. He is absolutely elite on that end. Even though he is a poor defender he still is a guy that makes you better, period.


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Vee-Rex
10-09-2018, 08:50 AM
Guys... the Celtics had a pythag record of 51-31. They weren't a powerhouse with or without Irving. People are right to be excited about Boston but it should rest 100% on Tatum and Browns improvement, and Hayward.

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Cavs just won an NBA championship after winning 51 games in the regular season.

It's disturbing how much weight people (especially a lot of Raps fans... they're soooo guilty of this) on regular season records. You'd think the many playoff beatdowns would've changed this mindset.

Vee-Rex
10-09-2018, 08:57 AM
all our fighting and we basically agree where he is at. I have him 25-30. Seems about right to me. I also see sites ranking him top 15, which is laughable. I never see sites ranking him 40-50, so the balance is still out of skew, which is why I pick on him.

It's crazy how often we're vehemently arguing stuff but rank players similarly.

Jamiecballer
10-09-2018, 09:02 AM
Everybody but Jamie knows good teams win 50 plus in the regular season and donít give a **** so long as they are in. Seriously only Jamie looks at it and goes well team A won 62 games with a point differential of blah blah while team be won 58 with blah blah so they must be better. Dude puts up sick offensive numbers without limiting teammates touches or opportunities. He is absolutely elite on that end. Even though he is a poor defender he still is a guy that makes you better, period.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkHaha what does this have to do with me? Wouldn't you be better off trying to win your argument with Hawkeye than taking weak sideswipes at me?

You are wrong btw if you think everyone has dismissed how good the Raptors were last year simply because they **** the bed again in the playoffs. There are more than a few people who are willing and capable of looking at the performance of the players involved and noticing that the primary reason for that recurring behaviour was foisted on the Spurs.

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Jamiecballer
10-09-2018, 09:03 AM
Cavs just won an NBA championship after winning 51 games in the regular season.

It's disturbing how much weight people (especially a lot of Raps fans... they're soooo guilty of this) on regular season records. You'd think the many playoff beatdowns would've changed this mindset.Helllllloooooooo. Lebron James? Heard of him? Sweet jesus. Can you give me more examples where one of the greatest players in the history of the game, who understandably can coast through a regular season, have won the championship because they are so compelling. Your contention isn't that Kyrie belongs in that convo is it?

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Hawkeye15
10-09-2018, 09:16 AM
Everybody but Jamie knows good teams win 50 plus in the regular season and donít give a **** so long as they are in. Seriously only Jamie looks at it and goes well team A won 62 games with a point differential of blah blah while team be won 58 with blah blah so they must be better. Dude puts up sick offensive numbers without limiting teammates touches or opportunities. He is absolutely elite on that end. Even though he is a poor defender he still is a guy that makes you better, period.


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he CAN make you better. But he doesn't always make you better.

Do you not understand that?

For the last time, I am simply balancing the Kyrie ranking. Most have him way too high. it doesn't mean I don't think he is an all star level player, but so is/was Al Horford. There is a huge difference between elite, and all star level. Irving just doesn't consistently contribute to winning enough to justify the rankings I see him get.

Hawkeye15
10-09-2018, 09:17 AM
It's crazy how often we're vehemently arguing stuff but rank players similarly.

pretty much. You remind me of my brother. We ***** and moan at each other and then ultimately we think alike on almost everything haha

Jamiecballer
10-09-2018, 09:19 AM
he CAN make you better. But he doesn't always make you better.

Do you not understand that?

For the last time, I am simply balancing the Kyrie ranking. Most have him way too high. it doesn't mean I don't think he is an all star level player, but so is/was Al Horford. There is a huge difference between elite, and all star level. Irving just doesn't consistently contribute to winning enough to justify the rankings I see him get.Pissing in the wind dude, pissing in the wind. There is not a single individual that has bothered to take on your point that his teams have a history of showing similar results whether he is in or out. Instead they are arguing semantics.

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ewing
10-09-2018, 09:28 AM
he CAN make you better. But he doesn't always make you better.

Do you not understand that?

For the last time, I am simply balancing the Kyrie ranking. Most have him way too high. it doesn't mean I don't think he is an all star level player, but so is/was Al Horford. There is a huge difference between elite, and all star level. Irving just doesn't consistently contribute to winning enough to justify the rankings I see him get.

Bc you say he is an All star and a top 25 player then you say he is not a difference maker and doesnít regularly contribute to winning. Kyrie has been good enough for long enough to beat down your Kyrie sucks argument so you taken to talking out of both sides of your mouth


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ewing
10-09-2018, 09:29 AM
Haha what does this have to do with me? Wouldn't you be better off trying to win your argument with Hawkeye than taking weak sideswipes at me?

You are wrong btw if you think everyone has dismissed how good the Raptors were last year simply because they **** the bed again in the playoffs. There are more than a few people who are willing and capable of looking at the performance of the players involved and noticing that the primary reason for that recurring behaviour was foisted on the Spurs.

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No one took the Raps seriously

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Heediot
10-09-2018, 09:57 AM
Pissing in the wind dude, pissing in the wind. There is not a single individual that has bothered to take on your point that his teams have a history of showing similar results whether he is in or out. Instead they are arguing semantics.

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Y'all can stick to regular season metrics. Just like How Kyle Lowry is so valuable in the regular season and tails off when it matters.

I'm pretty sure in the first Cavs -GS finals, Kyrie would have made a difference. I'm sure LeBron would not of shot .400 from the field with Kyrie taking away some attention on offense that series. In fact a lot of people thought the Cavs might of won that series if Kyrie was healthy.

Kyrie also tries harder on defense in the playoffs if y'all don't notice. Since he joined Boston he is making a more concerted effort on that end too, so u guys can just keep on with your stats and predetermined notions of him dating back to his days in Cleveland.

Yeah in the regular season I can see his production being replaced but when you get deeper in the playoffs his value grows, that's where the haters dodge his value.

I am sure GS was winning 73 without KD, 67 the year beofre that without kD, makes KD a guy that doesn't add wins and or value lmao. On top of the Stevens like Pops are known to turn water into wine, so those guys just knows how to milk his talent and churn out w's.

Jamiecballer
10-09-2018, 09:58 AM
No one took the Raps seriously

Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkBecause of history. That's the part you refuse to acknowledge. It is the nature of being a fan to think this time will be different. It doesn't change the fact they were the best team in the East until playoff Demar showed up.

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Jamiecballer
10-09-2018, 10:00 AM
Y'all can stick to regular season metrics. Just like How Kyle Lowry is so valuable in the regular season and tails off when it matters.

I'm pretty sure in the first Cavs -GS finals, Kyrie would have made a difference. I'm sure LeBron would not of shot .400 from the field with Kyrie taking away some attention on offense that series. In fact a lot of people thought the Cavs might of won that series if Kyrie was healthy.

Kyrie also tries harder on defense in the playoffs if y'all don't notice. Since he joined Boston he is making a more concerted effort on that end too, so u guys can just keep on with your stats and predetermined notions of him dating back to his days in Cleveland.

Yeah in the regular season I can see his production being replaced but when you get deeper in the playoffs his value grows, that's where the haters dodge his value.

I am sure GS was winning 73 without KD, 67 the year beofre that without kD, makes KD a guy that doesn't add wins and or value lmao. On top of the Stevens like Pops are known to turn water into wine, so those guys just knows how to milk his talent and churn out w's.There is nothing wrong with what you are saying. Just don't expect 100% of people to buy it until there is more than just anecdotal eye test observations to back it up that's all.

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Hawkeye15
10-09-2018, 10:02 AM
Bc you say he is an All star and a top 25 player then you say he is not a difference maker and doesnít regularly contribute to winning. Kyrie has been good enough for long enough to beat down your Kyrie sucks argument so you taken to talking out of both sides of your mouth


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exactly. Hey all stars don't need to be actual stars. Just good enough to make an all star team. The on/off court numbers, and results when he isn't suited up, speak for themselves. As does the eye test.

Heediot
10-09-2018, 10:06 AM
There is nothing wrong with what you are saying. Just don't expect 100% of people to buy it until there is more than just anecdotal eye test observations to back it up that's all.

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I don't disregard stats, but to me they are complementary.

I don't take regular season metrics the same was as I take playoff metrics either. Some just love to stick/harp on to the former if it supports their agenda.

Jamiecballer
10-09-2018, 10:19 AM
I don't disregard stats, but to me they are complementary.

I don't take regular season metrics the same was as I take playoff metrics either. Some just love to stick/harp on to the former if it supports their agenda.Since when did factual data become an agenda. That sounds almost conspiracy theory-ish.

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Heediot
10-09-2018, 10:27 AM
Since when did factual data become an agenda. That sounds almost conspiracy theory-ish.

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I am saying people who don't like Kyrie focus on one set of data over another to support their views.

I think how you perform post april/may is more significant vs. how you perform in the regular season. Look LeBron takes plays off in the regular season, the GS team is lackadaisical and unfocused here and there in the regular season. It's two different animals, and to me the playoffs show who you really are as a player more vs. the regular season. You have guys and teams not going all out, people faking injuries to avoid playing and for rest. teams tanking hard as **** after the allstar break and trade deadline. Refs are calling the games differently, coaches and teams are focusing and scheming to take things away more in the playoffs. There are lots of reasons and variables where one set of data is weaker vs. the other.

Hawkeye15
10-09-2018, 10:41 AM
I am saying people who don't like Kyrie focus on one set of data over another to support their views.


uh, you don't think the opposite is true? Kyrie's VERY timely outbursts have made people fall in love with him. While totally disregarding his faults.

"yeah he has all this **** wrong with him but buckets in the playoffs!"

it's the only response I read. Ever.

Heediot
10-09-2018, 11:03 AM
uh, you don't think the opposite is true? Kyrie's VERY timely outbursts have made people fall in love with him. While totally disregarding his faults.

"yeah he has all this **** wrong with him but buckets in the playoffs!"

it's the only response I read. Ever.

People agree he has his faults, but his presence on the court goes beyond just metrics. Especially playoff time.

KLove has a better dbpm vs. Kyrie is their 3 years together in Cleveland. You can bet you last dollar GS would rather have love on the court and attack his slow footed *** vs. having Kyrie on the court. You think James would shoot .398 with Kyrie in the 15 finals? You don't think Cle has a chance the win that series with or without Love, if Kyrie was healthy? Healthy Kyrie and Bron that series, the series is uo for grabs. Healthy James and Love, injured Kyrie, GS still wins comfortably.

Kyries scoring outbursts are one thing, but his presence on the court in a playoff series is more threatening and imo more valuable vs a guy who may have nice regular season advanced metrics like his team mate K Love. In Minny K Love metrics were so juicy people were calling the guy top 5 and n contention for best PF. Who you think GS coaches and fans would rather see regardless of these advanced stats? KLove had a better/similar d-rating then Bron in the last two playoffs, who do you think teams want to attack?

Yeah I agree he is flawed, defensively ball iq and court vision. Downplaying his ability to get buckets and that threat of his ability to get buckets is unfair to that aspect of his game though.

Hawkeye15
10-09-2018, 11:05 AM
People agree he has his faults, but his presence on the court goes beyond just metrics. Especially playoff time.

KLove has a better dbpm vs. Kyrie is their 3 years together in Cleveland. You can bet you last dollar GS would rather have love on the court and attack his slow footed *** vs. having Kyrie on the court. You think James would shoot .398 with Kyrie in the 15 finals? You don't think Cle has a chance the win that series with or without Love, if Kyrie was healthy? Healthy Kyrie and Bron that series, the series is uo for grabs. Healthy James and Love, injured Kyrie, GS still wins comfortably.

Kyries scoring outbursts are one thing, but his presence on the court in a playoff series is more threatening and imo more valuable vs a guy who may have nice regular season advanced metrics like his team mate K Love. In Minny K Love metrics were so juicy people were calling the guy top 5 and n contention for best PF. Who you think GS coaches and fans would rather see regardless of these advanced stats? KLove had a better/similar d-rating then Bron in the last two playoffs, who do you think teams want to attack?

Yeah I agree he is flawed, defensively ball iq and court vision. Downplaying his ability to get buckets and that threat of his ability to get buckets is unfair to that aspect of his game though.

yeah, but you are talking about going off stats like they are gospel. That isn't the case man.

Anywho, you likely understand my view of Kyrie. Glad to have him on my team, for like 10 games a year, if we were to make the postseason. But, I prefer consistency is all.

ZH721
10-09-2018, 11:11 AM
Well I directly responded to Hawkeye who made it quite clear what was being discussed. I'm quite sure you know what he said too, dont play coy.

And just in case you truly missed what he said, it's right there before my post so feel free to take a gander.

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And I gave you actual objective data that youíve continued to dodge. Bravo.

ZH721
10-09-2018, 11:17 AM
exactly. Hey all stars don't need to be actual stars. Just good enough to make an all star team. The on/off court numbers, and results when he isn't suited up, speak for themselves. As does the eye test.

Dude the Celtics lost to the Cavs because Kyrie wasnít playing. How the **** do you keep pushing this ********?

ďResults when he isnít suited upĒ is beating the Bucks in 7 and losing to the Cavs. Like what is going on here? I know you donít like Kyrie but good lord...

ZH721
10-09-2018, 11:19 AM
uh, you don't think the opposite is true? Kyrie's VERY timely outbursts have made people fall in love with him. While totally disregarding his faults.

"yeah he has all this **** wrong with him but buckets in the playoffs!"

it's the only response I read. Ever.


yeah, but you are talking about going off stats like they are gospel. That isn't the case man.

Anywho, you likely understand my view of Kyrie. Glad to have him on my team, for like 10 games a year, if we were to make the postseason. But, I prefer consistency is all.

He was consistently great in the regular season this past year but youíve continued to ignore that, even admitting you havenít watched him much with the Celtics. The stats back it up.

Heediot
10-09-2018, 11:26 AM
yeah, but you are talking about going off stats like they are gospel. That isn't the case man.

Anywho, you likely understand my view of Kyrie. Glad to have him on my team, for like 10 games a year, if we were to make the postseason. But, I prefer consistency is all.

I don't really like bringing up stats fwiw. I am more of a eye test guy. I just bring it up to show how misleading it can be, especially comparing the big 3 in Cle in this thread. People who argue against Kyrie love to bring up the numbers. Stats have their relevancy and significance and more often than not they are leaning the right way, so I don't disregard numbers totally.

Look LeBron james even lacks consistency in the regular season, so what, people still think he's the best in the agme regardless of regular season digits. It's Ok for him to get the benefit of the doubt because he shows u in the playoffs. Kyrie shows up too, so where's his benefit of the doubt? One guy gets a easy pass according to his fans, another guy doesn't according to his anatagonists.

Hawkeye15
10-09-2018, 11:32 AM
I don't really like bringing up stats fwiw. I am more of a eye test guy. I just bring it up to show how misleading it can be, especially comparing the big 3 in Cle in this thread. People who argue against Kyrie love to bring up the numbers. Stats have their relevancy and significance and more often than not they are leaning the right way, so I don't disregard numbers totally.

Look LeBron james even lacks consistency in the regular season, so what, people still think he's the best in the agme regardless of regular season digits. It's Ok for him to get the benefit of the doubt because he shows u in the playoffs. Kyrie shows up too, so where's his benefit of the doubt? One guy gets a easy pass according to his fans, another guy doesn't according to his anatagonists.

I mean, if Kyrie were 34 with a million minutes on his legs and the weight of multiple teams on his back, I would cut him slack for cruising haha

Vee-Rex
10-09-2018, 11:34 AM
Helllllloooooooo. Lebron James? Heard of him? Sweet jesus. Can you give me more examples where one of the greatest players in the history of the game, who understandably can coast through a regular season, have won the championship because they are so compelling. Your contention isn't that Kyrie belongs in that convo is it?

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My contention is that there are FACTORS in play that need to be accounted for and you can't make the blanket, idiotic assumption that a team isn't in the upper tier because of a regular season record.

Injuries, chemistry, COACHING, style of play, momentum - all of these are important factors that differentiate the regular season from the playoffs.

Just because Boston only finished with 51 wins doesn't mean they were the same team in the playoffs.

Do I have to run down the list of NBA champion contenders with sub par regular season records, or are you so stubborn that you're chalking it up to JUST LeBron James turning it up in the playoffs?

Do us all a favor and respond with some intelligence FOR ONCE in this gd thread.

Can you not understand how ridiculous it is to assert a team is not a "powerhouse" (your words) because they only won 51 games?

Hawkeye15
10-09-2018, 11:34 AM
He was consistently great in the regular season this past year but youíve continued to ignore that, even admitting you havenít watched him much with the Celtics. The stats back it up.

Irving was the difference between less than 3 points per 100 possessions on the floor in the regular season this year. So yes, the Celtics were slightly better when he played.

But, the fight FOR Kyrie starts and stops in the playoffs. And I understand that.

Jamiecballer
10-09-2018, 11:35 AM
And I gave you actual objective data that youíve continued to dodge. Bravo.

hawkeye said that historically Kyrie's presence has made little difference to his teams record. i added, it's bad for the narrative if you look at the data.

why is it hard for you to follow the thread of conversation here? nobody is asking for a repeat of his excellent numbers bud. we know what they are. so do you have anything to counter Hawkeye's claim, or not??

Hawkeye15
10-09-2018, 11:37 AM
My contention is that there are FACTORS in play that need to be accounted for and you can't make the blanket, idiotic assumption that a team isn't in the upper tier because of a regular season record.

Injuries, chemistry, COACHING, style of play, momentum - all of these are important factors that differentiate the regular season from the playoffs.

Just because Boston only finished with 51 wins doesn't mean they were the same team in the playoffs.

Do I have to run down the list of NBA champion contenders with sub par regular season records, or are you so stubborn that you're chalking it up to JUST LeBron James turning it up in the playoffs?

Do us all a favor and respond with some intelligence FOR ONCE in this gd thread.

Can you not understand how ridiculous it is to assert a team is not a "powerhouse" (your words) because they only won 51 games?

you are no doubt correct. But you are also smart enough to know at the end of the day, results are all that matter. Or at least that is how you are judged to an extent, ya know? So when Kyrie sleepwalked through a year or 2 with on/off court numbers that make you scratch your head, and his teams win when he is hurt, it raises questions is all.

ewing
10-09-2018, 11:46 AM
exactly. Hey all stars don't need to be actual stars. Just good enough to make an all star team. The on/off court numbers, and results when he isn't suited up, speak for themselves. As does the eye test.

What results? The Celtics would have been way better with him last year. The LeBron wouldnít have shot 38% with him in the finals. The Piston would have won 50 something games without Rasheed Wallace and gotten a smack down against the Lakers. You are like MTM making a case for Robert Covington being a top 25 player last year. All star talent matters, top 25 players matter. These teams play 82 regular season games, most of them are close, and everyone scores over 100 points a game. These plus/minus numbers you are looking at are much less telling then you think


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Vee-Rex
10-09-2018, 11:55 AM
you are no doubt correct. But you are also smart enough to know at the end of the day, results are all that matter. Or at least that is how you are judged to an extent, ya know? So when Kyrie sleepwalked through a year or 2 with on/off court numbers that make you scratch your head, and his teams win when he is hurt, it raises questions is all.

That is why we argue - context must be applied. Otherwise, we could make a bunch of hot takes to fit my agenda.

Like the Cavs being a better team with Dellavedova on the court than with Kyrie in 2016.

At some point, as intelligent beings, we have to question WHY data points in one way. Some questions to ask:

Why does Delly have better on/off? Maybe Kyrie's injury? Maybe Kyrie coasts in the regular season? Maybe impact stats don't favor his style of play? Maybe the Cavs played differently (hint: they did) in an attempt to minimize the issues with having less talent on the floor.

Maybe, we don't have a quantifiable way to measure sheer talent, at least not with the tools we have right now.

My point: while you're right that results do matter, we should never ever ever ignore context or the WHY behind things. That goes for more than just sports.

It's why I was ao taken aback by his claim that 51 wins = they weren't a powerhouse with or without Kyrie.

ewing
10-09-2018, 11:55 AM
uh, you don't think the opposite is true? Kyrie's VERY timely outbursts have made people fall in love with him. While totally disregarding his faults.

"yeah he has all this **** wrong with him but buckets in the playoffs!"

it's the only response I read. Ever.

His regular season numbers are damn good. This team performance offensively with him on the floor do not support a narrative that says he is ball stopper that limits others. His shooting %s and TO rate donít support the idea that he is bad decision maker either. He is a sub par defender that gets hurt. Those are legit criticism but they donít up close to negating what he brings to the floor. When you add in the fact that top shelve offensive talent almost always wins out in the post season over more balance and he has performed well then....


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Hawkeye15
10-09-2018, 11:57 AM
What results? The Celtics would have been way better with him last year. The LeBron wouldnít have shot 38% with him in the finals. The Piston would have won 50 something games without Rasheed Wallace and gotten a smack down against the Lakers. You are like MTM making a case for Robert Covington being a top 25 player last year. All star talent matters, top 25 players matter. These teams play 82 regular season games, most of them are close, and everyone scores over 100 points a game. These plus/minus numbers you are looking at are much less telling then you think


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consistent on/off court numbers are valuable. As are team records when you aint playing. They both add up to Irving's teams not missing him much when he sits. Hell a few years ago his team was more productive without him.

I am not saying a team shouldn't want Irving. I am saying, he isn't the difference between being good and being a contender. He hasn't done **** on his own, without a stacked team surrounding him. At all. Not once in his entire career has he lifted anything. There is a massive difference between a run of the mill all star and a player that changes teams fortunes.

Hawkeye15
10-09-2018, 12:00 PM
That is why we argue - context must be applied. Otherwise, we could make a bunch of hot takes to fit my agenda.

Like the Cavs being a better team with Dellavedova on the court than with Kyrie in 2016.

At some point, as intelligent beings, we have to question WHY data points in one way. Some questions to ask:

Why does Delly have better on/off? Maybe Kyrie's injury? Maybe Kyrie coasts in the regular season? Maybe impact stats don't favor his style of play? Maybe the Cavs played differently (hint: they did) in an attempt to minimize the issues with having less talent on the floor.

Maybe, we don't have a quantifiable way to measure sheer talent, at least not with the tools we have right now.

My point: while you're right that results do matter, we should never ever ever ignore context or the WHY behind things. That goes for more than just sports.

It's why I was ao taken aback by his claim that 51 wins = they weren't a powerhouse with or without Kyrie.

I have thought about all of those questions though. And the bottom line is, Kyrie shows up when he wants to. And that is fine, if you understand that and can work around it.

Look, I argue this hard for Rubio, because I watched him day in/day out. You know more about Kyrie's motivations than I ever will. I simply roll with what I see, and what I know of his teams play with or without him. The frustrating part of this site, is you end up hanging your hat on arguments that you really don't care that much about, simply because there are only a few recycled topics this time of year.

Boston with a healthy Kyrie and Hayward should be very good this year.

Hawkeye15
10-09-2018, 12:03 PM
Irving has never proven a leader, or elite player. He balled out in a playoff series, and has shown the ability to score at an elite level come playoff time. I don't like his style, his effort at times, nor his playground game. I believe he is overrated, for reasons I have stated, nothing is changing my mind.

He is an excellent player, but nothing I would compare the truly great players to, which I see constantly on this site.

Done with this convo, I can't spell the same word 40 different ways.

Jamiecballer
10-09-2018, 12:03 PM
My contention is that there are FACTORS in play that need to be accounted for and you can't make the blanket, idiotic assumption that a team isn't in the upper tier because of a regular season record.

Injuries, chemistry, COACHING, style of play, momentum - all of these are important factors that differentiate the regular season from the playoffs.

Just because Boston only finished with 51 wins doesn't mean they were the same team in the playoffs.

Do I have to run down the list of NBA champion contenders with sub par regular season records, or are you so stubborn that you're chalking it up to JUST LeBron James turning it up in the playoffs?

Do us all a favor and respond with some intelligence FOR ONCE in this gd thread.

Can you not understand how ridiculous it is to assert a team is not a "powerhouse" (your words) because they only won 51 games?

i had a lot of respect for you before this crap, and while a post with this much disrespect doesn't usually warrant a response, i am going to respond briefly and be done with you.

i don't care about the record, it's about the performance. you are how you perform. boston performed like a good but not great team during the regular season. perpetually going nowhere Milwaukee took them to 7. Boston did a great job exploiting Simmons in round 2, something that falls as much on Philadelphia as it does Boston. Then they lost to an embarrassingly poor representative for the East in the NBA finals in the Cleveland Cavaliers. we choked! Derozan, as per usual, put on a performance for the ages. somehow, even though we are constantly reminded of our playoff choking, for the purposes of evaluating what the Celtics did it's almost like nobody seems to take it into account.

you fell for the narrative. as did many, many others. Every game the media ate it up, "look how amazing it is that the Celtics are making it so far without their 2 best players". if you watched the games, you were reminded every 2 seconds what an incredible feat it was because it's a great story and a nice accomplishment. but it's only when you step back a moment after all the noise that you are able to see a bigger picture.

Boston or Toronto were the best team in the east, if you want to say Boston, have at it. Point is, it wasn't Cleveland. There is no shame in not beating Lebron James, but lets be real that Cleveland team was not a high mountain to climb. So while I will be the first to say that it's a special accomplishment to see such a young group of kids make the ECF, there is a bit of a cloud over the opponents they beat. There just is. But it's hard to see that when you are too busy jerking off to their future, which is totally understandable. I just did it 5 mins ago. I'd trade places in a second if I could. But it's because we saw a glimpse of what they COULD be, not what they were.

i would be interested, btw, in a list of teams that were NBA champions, had the best player on the planet on their team, and were not objectively really, really, good during the regular season (for reasons other than a massive star injury, of course). i don't believe this to be a big list like you are suggesting.

agalens
10-09-2018, 12:15 PM
he have to

Heediot
10-09-2018, 12:16 PM
The east was bad. Even with 51 wins though, Cleveland had the best odds in April of making it to the finals out of a ish show conference FWIW.

I don't know if that qualifies as a power house team but they still had better odds vs. teams with prettier regular season totals.

Vee-Rex
10-09-2018, 12:28 PM
I have thought about all of those questions though. And the bottom line is, Kyrie shows up when he wants to. And that is fine, if you understand that and can work around it.

Look, I argue this hard for Rubio, because I watched him day in/day out. You know more about Kyrie's motivations than I ever will. I simply roll with what I see, and what I know of his teams play with or without him. The frustrating part of this site, is you end up hanging your hat on arguments that you really don't care that much about, simply because there are only a few recycled topics this time of year.

Boston with a healthy Kyrie and Hayward should be very good this year.

To be fair, I think Kyrie tried a lot more and was more consistent for Boston than he was with Cleveland.

Maybe it was because he felt he had something to prove. Maybe he respected Stevens more than Lue - idk. But Boston remained a top 2-3 defensive team with Kyrie playing and being okay on defense.

Vee-Rex
10-09-2018, 12:32 PM
i had a lot of respect for you before this crap, and while a post with this much disrespect doesn't usually warrant a response, i am going to respond briefly and be done with you.

i don't care about the record, it's about the performance. you are how you perform. boston performed like a good but not great team during the regular season. perpetually going nowhere Milwaukee took them to 7. Boston did a great job exploiting Simmons in round 2, something that falls as much on Philadelphia as it does Boston. Then they lost to an embarrassingly poor representative for the East in the NBA finals in the Cleveland Cavaliers. we choked! Derozan, as per usual, put on a performance for the ages. somehow, even though we are constantly reminded of our playoff choking, for the purposes of evaluating what the Celtics did it's almost like nobody seems to take it into account.

you fell for the narrative. as did many, many others. Every game the media ate it up, "look how amazing it is that the Celtics are making it so far without their 2 best players". if you watched the games, you were reminded every 2 seconds what an incredible feat it was because it's a great story and a nice accomplishment. but it's only when you step back a moment after all the noise that you are able to see a bigger picture.

Boston or Toronto were the best team in the east, if you want to say Boston, have at it. Point is, it wasn't Cleveland. There is no shame in not beating Lebron James, but lets be real that Cleveland team was not a high mountain to climb. So while I will be the first to say that it's a special accomplishment to see such a young group of kids make the ECF, there is a bit of a cloud over the opponents they beat. There just is. But it's hard to see that when you are too busy jerking off to their future, which is totally understandable. I just did it 5 mins ago. I'd trade places in a second if I could. But it's because we saw a glimpse of what they COULD be, not what they were.

i would be interested, btw, in a list of teams that were NBA champions, had the best player on the planet on their team, and were not objectively really, really, good during the regular season (for reasons other than a massive star injury, of course). i don't believe this to be a big list like you are suggesting.

I lose respect when statements like that are made. The game is soooooo much more deep and complex than a regular season record.

The regular season is a marathon, the playoffs a sprint.

WaDe03
10-09-2018, 12:49 PM
I lose respect when statements like that are made. The game is soooooo much more deep and complex than a regular season record.

The regular season is a marathon, the playoffs a sprint.

You just be gentle with this one Vee-Rex, he lacks a lot of understanding when it comes to the game so he resorts to only numbers and thatís it.

Jamiecballer
10-09-2018, 12:52 PM
The east was bad. Even with 51 wins though, Cleveland had the best odds in April of making it to the finals out of a ish show conference FWIW.

I don't know if that qualifies as a power house team but they still had better odds vs. teams with prettier regular season totals.And what pray tell were the reasons that the oddsmaker had for getting Cleveland through? Would you not say it was basically - they do not look good but they have James so you cant bet against him come playoff time.

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Jamiecballer
10-09-2018, 12:57 PM
I lose respect when statements like that are made. The game is soooooo much more deep and complex than a regular season record.

The regular season is a marathon, the playoffs a sprint.That hardly qualifies as a response to anything said but I'm totally cool if you are bailing. No point in taking time to make a legitimate response for a reply like this one that blatantly ignores whatever was said.

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Jamiecballer
10-09-2018, 01:08 PM
You just be gentle with this one Vee-Rex, he lacks a lot of understanding when it comes to the game so he resorts to only numbers and thatís it.That's not true. I spend most of my time arguing with people on things that actual data would suggest are false. What am I supposed to do?

"No, no you dont understand, I know what I see. He can pull up and make one over 2 defenders after blowing by his man with a sweet crossover, he's good."

I watched guys in my own forum slobber or stubbornly cling to hope with Bargnani because of what he could "do". I watched DeMar DeRozan become a cult favorite in Toronto and develop this reputation for improving every year when you could really boil it down to he got better and better at making tough shots look easy. love the Kobe/MJ imitation game but it's a long way from guys who actually consistently improve their game, simplify their game, and address weaknesses. You can do none of those things and still become an all-star over time.

Irving needs to prove hes more than that still.

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Heediot
10-09-2018, 01:15 PM
That's not true. I spend most of my time arguing with people on things that actual data would suggest are false. What am I supposed to do?

"No, no you dont understand, I know what I see. He can pull up and make one over 2 defenders after blowing by his man with a sweet crossover, he's good."

I watched guys in my own forum slobber or stubbornly cling to hope with Bargnani because of what he could "do". I watched DeMar DeRozan become a cult favorite in Toronto and develop this reputation for improving every year when you could really boil it down to he got better and better at making tough shots look easy. love the Kobe/MJ imitation game but it's a long way from guys who actually consistently improve their game, simplify their game, and address weaknesses. You can do none of those things and still become an all-star over time.

Irving needs to prove hes more than that still.

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Kyrie is trying harder on D. Playing more within the team scheme, less playgroundish. More of a vocal leader and willing to teach the young guys.

TBH since joining Boston he has become less of what some guys don't like him for, which is funny to me.

I don't know but some people aren't giving him enough credit for trying to be more of a team player, more of a leader, and more of a engaged player. I get that there are prejudice from his past by the antagonists but why not open up to the subtle changes he is trying to make?

Vee-Rex
10-09-2018, 01:17 PM
That hardly qualifies as a response to anything said but I'm totally cool if you are bailing. No point in taking time to make a legitimate response for a reply like this one that blatantly ignores whatever was said.

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You said you were gonna respond briefly (lol that was anything but brief) and then you were done with me. Why would I counter argue your points when you were preemptively ending the discussion?

That's not me bailing, it's me not responding to an argument I assume is over.

And don't cry about disrespect when you're the one that blew up with the whole LEBRON HELLOOOOOO SWEET JESUS stuff. :laugh2:

Heediot
10-09-2018, 01:17 PM
And what pray tell were the reasons that the oddsmaker had for getting Cleveland through? Would you not say it was basically - they do not look good but they have James so you cant bet against him come playoff time.

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That and Kyries injury has a role that some won't lend to credit to

Others. Raptors were frauds. Sixers and Celts inexperience.

ZH721
10-09-2018, 01:24 PM
hawkeye said that historically Kyrie's presence has made little difference to his teams record. i added, it's bad for the narrative if you look at the data.

why is it hard for you to follow the thread of conversation here? nobody is asking for a repeat of his excellent numbers bud. we know what they are. so do you have anything to counter Hawkeye's claim, or not??

You: ďIts bad for there narrative if you look at actual objective data.Ē

So we agree I gave actual objective data and you say itís excellent. Yet ďKyrie isnít a difference maker.Ē

Yikes.

ZH721
10-09-2018, 01:41 PM
Anyone who thinks Kyrie is a terrible defender and not a good passer/playmaker didnít watch a single Celtics game last year. Heís no longer playing ďLeBron ballĒ. There is a team, there is a system in Boston.

If the stats he posted last year donít show you his improvements, Iím not sure what will. If you hate him, thatís one thing. Hate will blind you, so it makes sense.

ewing
10-09-2018, 01:51 PM
And what pray tell were the reasons that the oddsmaker had for getting Cleveland through? Would you not say it was basically - they do not look good but they have James so you cant bet against him come playoff time.

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Cause the Red Sea opened up for them. Boston was too hurt, Philly too young, and the Raptors werenít very good


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ewing
10-09-2018, 02:23 PM
To be fair, I think Kyrie tried a lot more and was more consistent for Boston than he was with Cleveland.

Maybe it was because he felt he had something to prove. Maybe he respected Stevens more than Lue - idk. But Boston remained a top 2-3 defensive team with Kyrie playing and being okay on defense.

Maybe he improved but Itís also bc they are super long and versatile on the wings. If you can switch one through 4 and the help is long and intimidating to drivers you donít need a great one on one defender at both guards. Would a real solid defender at the one make them better? Probably so long as he doesnít play ****** offense that leads to transition but they are still plenty capable of defending with Kyrie. Iím sure Brad wishes he could check someone like CP3 but he not going to kill you with decent defenders around him.


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ewing
10-09-2018, 02:35 PM
Anyone who thinks Kyrie is a terrible defender and not a good passer/playmaker didnít watch a single Celtics game last year. Heís no longer playing ďLeBron ballĒ. There is a team, there is a system in Boston.

If the stats he posted last year donít show you his improvements, Iím not sure what will. If you hate him, thatís one thing. Hate will blind you, so it makes sense.

My question about Kyrie was would be able to run a ball movement offense with him playing his attack game. Boston seemed to have no trouble doing it.


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Jamiecballer
10-09-2018, 03:36 PM
You: ďIts bad for there narrative if you look at actual objective data.Ē

So we agree I gave actual objective data and you say itís excellent. Yet ďKyrie isnít a difference maker.Ē

Yikes.Do you ever answer what's asked or is this just a defense mechanism. Again, what data do you have that actually addresses what both Hawk and I actually said dude.

Stats are data, no surprises there. But you have been asked to provide data that would counter the statement that Kyrie has not proven as of yet to make a big difference to his teams results. Do you ever plan to answer this or just dance around it.

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ZH721
10-09-2018, 10:05 PM
Do you ever answer what's asked or is this just a defense mechanism. Again, what data do you have that actually addresses what both Hawk and I actually said dude.

Stats are data, no surprises there. But you have been asked to provide data that would counter the statement that Kyrie has not proven as of yet to make a big difference to his teams results. Do you ever plan to answer this or just dance around it.

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He had the 8th highest BPM in the league last year. I think heís doing just fine.

A team like the Celtics with great depth and backup guards in Rozier and Smart isnít as likely to see a huge difference in off/on numbers when someone is substituted. On top of that, on/off numbers are highly misleading without context. Playing rotations, quality of team, etc go into that. The fact that you guys ignore his great numbers and say ďoh well the Celtics arenít THAT much better when he sits, is silly.

Kyrie had a 6.4 NetRtg last year.
Durant only at 7.1
LeBron at 1.6

hugepatsfan
10-10-2018, 12:29 AM
He also once said he wouldn't leave the Cavs like Lebron.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgH1cx1u4MQ

Iím not saying heís 100% gonna stay but you canít really make anything of that. The setting just doesnít allow him to say anything else there. Thereís really no stock to put in that. The settings heís made these Boston comments in are significant.

Jamiecballer
10-10-2018, 02:42 AM
He had the 8th highest BPM in the league last year. I think heís doing just fine.

A team like the Celtics with great depth and backup guards in Rozier and Smart isnít as likely to see a huge difference in off/on numbers when someone is substituted. On top of that, on/off numbers are highly misleading without context. Playing rotations, quality of team, etc go into that. The fact that you guys ignore his great numbers and say ďoh well the Celtics arenít THAT much better when he sits, is silly.

Well 2 things.

A) isnt that why I argued with you previously that the Celtics weren't guaranteed to be much better, and you insisted that adding Irving and Hayward were going to make a huge difference. You cant have it both ways. You cant tell someone adding Irving is massive and in the next breath say that the quality and depth is why the results are fairly close. It's one or the other.

B) Hawk was alluding to a trend that goes back to the beginning of his career, not just last season.



Kyrie had a 6.4 NetRtg last year.

Exactly, thank you. Last of the Celtics 4 major starting players.

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ZH721
10-11-2018, 10:48 AM
Well 2 things.

A) isnt that why I argued with you previously that the Celtics weren't guaranteed to be much better, and you insisted that adding Irving and Hayward were going to make a huge difference. You cant have it both ways. You cant tell someone adding Irving is massive and in the next breath say that the quality and depth is why the results are fairly close. It's one or the other.

Uhhh what the ****? Kyrie isnít taking minutes of those top backups. Heís taking minutes if Ojeleye/Yabusele/Larkin/etc. So yes, those minutes are huge upgrades.


B) Hawk was alluding to a trend that goes back to the beginning of his career, not just last season.

Exactly, thank you. Last of the Celtics 4 major starting players.

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I love how you cut out LeBronís NetRtg lol. You really need to learn about context with stats.

Jamiecballer
10-11-2018, 02:14 PM
Uhhh what the ****? Kyrie isnít taking minutes of those top backups. Heís taking minutes if Ojeleye/Yabusele/Larkin/etc. So yes, those minutes are huge upgrades.



I love how you cut out LeBronís NetRtg lol. You really need to learn about context with stats.Do you even hear yourself?

- The Celtics were good without Irving because of the depth.

- Having Irving makes a huge difference because of who he is replacing.

Pick a side of the god damn fence bro.

And what on earth does Lebrons net have to do with anything? Do you see anything about Lebron in any of my posts?

You are frustrating to talk to, I'm only continuing because I like pointing out your BS. And as soon as that loses its entertainment factor I'll be out. Not there yet.



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ZH721
10-11-2018, 02:52 PM
Do you even hear yourself?

- The Celtics were good without Irving because of the depth.

- Having Irving makes a huge difference because of who he is replacing.

Pick a side of the god damn fence bro.

Youíre dull as ****. The Celtics were worse without Irving but still good because they have a deep team, especially at guard with Rozier/Smart.

Irving makes a huge difference. The Celtics needed his scoring last year against the Cavs. HEíD HAVE TAKEN THE MINUTES OF GUYS LIKE LARKIN/OJELEYE/YABUSELE WHO ONLY PLAYED BECAUSE OF INJURIES.

Why the **** is that confusing to you? Good lord.


And what on earth does Lebrons net have to do with anything? Do you see anything about Lebron in any of my posts?

You and others have completely ignored Irvingís great stats because of on/off ratings. Iím showing you that those on/off ratings are trash without context. See: LeBron. You just donít get it.


You are frustrating to talk to, I'm only continuing because I like pointing out your BS. And as soon as that loses its entertainment factor I'll be out. Not there yet.

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Try removing your hate glasses and read.

Jamiecballer
10-11-2018, 04:09 PM
Youíre dull as ****. The Celtics were worse without Irving but still good because they have a deep team, especially at guard with Rozier/Smart.

Irving makes a huge difference. The Celtics needed his scoring last year against the Cavs. HEíD HAVE TAKEN THE MINUTES OF GUYS LIKE LARKIN/OJELEYE/YABUSELE WHO ONLY PLAYED BECAUSE OF INJURIES.

Why the **** is that confusing to you? Good lord.



You and others have completely ignored Irvingís great stats because of on/off ratings. Iím showing you that those on/off ratings are trash without context. See: LeBron. You just donít get it.



Try removing your hate glasses and read.You are such a homer it's hilarious. Any time you want to have a conversation without shifting goalposts would be super. You can't even acknowledge the obvious contradictions in your own posts.

What context did you introduce for Lebron other than the fact that his team was **** all year. Your team was much better, with a much better differential obviously. And yes, of the 4 major players in that starting lineup, Irving's was the lowest. That's just an unavoidable fact.

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