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Jeffy25
09-22-2018, 11:38 PM
Who is currently greater all-time? And who will finish their careers higher ranked?

GREATNESS ONE
09-22-2018, 11:39 PM
Durant.

GREATNESS ONE
09-22-2018, 11:40 PM
Curry is a gimmick player, doesnít play defense, needs a all-star team around him to succeed, Durant has shown he can carry teams. Lmfao at the thought of Curry/Westbrook

tredigs
09-22-2018, 11:44 PM
Curry is a gimmick player, doesnít play defense, needs a all-star team around him to succeed, Durant has shown he can carry teams. Lmfao at the thought of Curry/Westbrook
You're a gimmick poster. I agree with the RPM stats that Curry smashes year after year. To smart fans it's not a question.

GREATNESS ONE
09-22-2018, 11:46 PM
You so offended me :laugh2:

GREATNESS ONE
09-22-2018, 11:47 PM
Does defense matter to you lil man?

Raps18-19 Champ
09-23-2018, 12:09 AM
Kevin Durant. Both will be in the 11-20 range so it's not that big a gap IMO. Probably would have been a bigger gap if they didn't play together though.

GREATNESS ONE
09-23-2018, 12:27 AM
Kevin Durant. Both will be in the 11-20 range so it's not that big a gap IMO. Probably would have been a bigger gap if they didn't play together though.

Would they have beaten Bron the last two times tho, thatís the real Q

More-Than-Most
09-23-2018, 12:27 AM
RPM really helps make this a discussion but overall it isnt and wont be. Durant will end up a top 3-7 player ever and is better now as well.

MJNetsIsles
09-23-2018, 12:42 AM
Yeah itís Durant.

goingfor28
09-23-2018, 01:03 AM
KD and it's not even close

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GREATNESS ONE
09-23-2018, 01:10 AM
Little man is getting huffy and puffy, fluster away :)

GREATNESS ONE
09-23-2018, 01:12 AM
KD 5 Votes
lil guy 1vote

tredigs
09-23-2018, 01:14 AM
KD 5 Votes
lil guy 1vote
Trust me lil buddy, I know how the public votes. I also know reality. It's a major reason why I consistently crush NBA sports betting. Smashed all of the boys on here publicly this past season as well, and that was less than half of the story.

GREATNESS ONE
09-23-2018, 01:23 AM
You must be a genius..

TrueFan420
09-23-2018, 01:26 AM
I can see arguements for both but push comes to shove I'm taking Curry.

GREATNESS ONE
09-23-2018, 01:30 AM
Yeah yeah buddy. I'll tell you though, it's wild how profitable not being an idiot can be.

Iím in awe

GREATNESS ONE
09-23-2018, 01:31 AM
I can see arguements for both but push comes to shove I'm taking Curry.

I can respect how you came to your decision. Youíre a GS fan but as well Raiders. Push come to shove youíre taking the home grown boy

GREATNESS ONE
09-23-2018, 01:32 AM
KD 5 > LilCurry 2

TrueFan420
09-23-2018, 01:40 AM
I can respect how you came to your decision. Youíre a GS fan but as well Raiders. Push come to shove youíre taking the home grown boy

I'll always have an affinity for Curry and the original core they brought Oakland the Chanpionship but it's more than that. Curry sets the tone from the top down and it's more than just on the court. He's what makes everything work and because of him no one (himself included) is above rebuke.

GREATNESS ONE
09-23-2018, 01:45 AM
I'll always have an affinity for Curry and the original core they brought Oakland the Chanpionship but it's more than that. Curry sets the tone from the top down and it's more than just on the court. He's what makes everything work and because of him no one (himself included) is above rebuke.

Ok, I believe you. How bout them Raiders?

tredigs
09-23-2018, 01:47 AM
I'll always have an affinity for Curry and the original core but it's more than that. Curry sets the tone from the top down and it's more than just on the court. He's what makes everything work and because of him no one (himself included) is above rebuke.

The off-court meta game factor of Curry is a whole 'nother beast. He's in the Duncan/Russell meld of supreme MVP superstars who put winning above themselves. Kobe, Lebron? That ilk. They're me-first. It's why despite the insane talent on their teams they never reached the level of dominance that Curry and his teams achieved. And obviously never will. These are the facts.

More-Than-Most
09-23-2018, 02:03 AM
You're a simpleton. There's a reason why the Warriors won a ship and won 70+ games before KD came to town. He's a very nice addition, but he's FAR from the catalyst. If you're dumb enough to think otherwise, good luck in life.

lol i guess everyone here is as well because everyone is going with the 2 way player who could curry a team without being exposed if he was the only star on said team... Curry and KD on neutral teams with no talent and KD takes his team further because he is the better basketball player by quite a bit.. The dude lost an MVP to iggy and has how many finals MVP now? Oh thats right durant has been back to back finals mvp for carrying curry

TrueFan420
09-23-2018, 02:07 AM
Ok, I believe you. How bout them Raiders?

I'm still pissed about the Mack. You don't let a HOF go like that. He's on the team we're at least 1-1 and with how we played thru the first 3 quarter agains the rams we could have maybe stole that game as well. It's gonna be a long season.

TrueFan420
09-23-2018, 02:10 AM
The off-court meta game factor of Curry is a whole 'nother beast. He's in the Duncan/Russell meld of supreme MVP superstars who put winning above themselves. Kobe, Lebron? That ilk. They're me-first. It's why despite the insane talent on their teams they never reached the level of dominance that Curry and his teams achieved. And obviously never will. These are the facts.

It really is an undervalued quality from the outside looking in but if you've ever been a part of a team with that type of leader you can understand it's true value

IKnowHoops
09-23-2018, 02:33 AM
The off-court meta game factor of Curry is a whole 'nother beast. He's in the Duncan/Russell meld of supreme MVP superstars who put winning above themselves. Kobe, Lebron? That ilk. They're me-first. It's why despite the insane talent on their teams they never reached the level of dominance that Curry and his teams achieved. And obviously never will. These are the facts.

Lol...ĒOff-court meta game factorĒ First time Iíve heard of that measurable. Bet you canít find that ever said ever in lifeís history written or audio. Common Tre, just make the case. Donít water it down with these reaches. Iíd have a better chance measuring Brons defensive prowess if he were to commit 100% of his energy to it like Green does.😁

FlashBolt
09-23-2018, 04:29 AM
Not even close. KD by a long shot here. People don't even realize Curry is older than Durant. Durant's achieved more accolades and carried Curry in the Finals. No doubt KD will rank higher.

Heediot
09-23-2018, 10:07 AM
Curry, he was the lead man for a title team. KD needs to do that on his own for me to even consider.

When you watch gs without Curry the offense changes a tonne fro my experience. Even without KD, that offense is historic.

Heediot
09-23-2018, 10:09 AM
RPM really helps make this a discussion but overall it isnt and wont be. Durant will end up a top 3-7 player ever and is better now as well.

lmao, Untill he has a dominant run as a lead man in the playoffs no way he sniffs that high.

GREATNESS ONE
09-23-2018, 10:56 AM
KD 7 > 3 curry

More-Than-Most
09-23-2018, 11:55 AM
lmao, Untill he has a dominant run as a lead man in the playoffs no way he sniffs that high.

lead man? He won back to back mvps as the lead man and IT WAS CURRY/GREEN/KLAY that ran out and begged him to come there so they dont get Lebrond ever again... They begged a dude to save them because they choked against lebron up 3-1 with 2 games left at home and needed a closer.

GREATNESS ONE
09-23-2018, 12:16 PM
lead man? He won back to back mvps as the lead man and IT WAS CURRY/GREEN/KLAY that ran out and begged him to come there so they dont get Lebrond ever again... They begged a dude to save them because they choked against lebron up 3-1 with 2 games left at home and needed a closer.

:laugh:

Jamiecballer
09-23-2018, 12:19 PM
Durant is quite a bit better here. This is like asking who is better Chris Paul or Steve Nash. Its obviously the 2 way player.

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Vee-Rex
09-23-2018, 01:32 PM
Inb4 the lock by a warriors mod

WaDe03
09-23-2018, 01:48 PM
Inb4 the lock by a warriors mod

Scoots is pissed!

Chronz
09-23-2018, 01:50 PM
Durant is quite a bit better here. This is like asking who is better Chris Paul or Steve Nash. Its obviously the 2 way player.

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Nash might've been better tho. I got curry but I expected him to make it a no brainer last year, he didn't but this year marks the return of mvp curry

Jamiecballer
09-23-2018, 02:19 PM
Trust me lil buddy, I know how the public votes. I also know reality. It's a major reason why I consistently crush NBA sports betting. Smashed all of the boys on here publicly this past season as well, and that was less than half of the story.I don't think you do. Curry is far more popular, and most people have such disgust for Durant that they have a bad taste in their mouth. The fact that Durant wins this vote easily is a true testament to the fact that it is genuinely not close.

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Jamiecballer
09-23-2018, 02:22 PM
lead man? He won back to back mvps as the lead man and IT WAS CURRY/GREEN/KLAY that ran out and begged him to come there so they dont get Lebrond ever again... They begged a dude to save them because they choked against lebron up 3-1 with 2 games left at home and needed a closer.Yes

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Heediot
09-23-2018, 02:24 PM
I don't think you do. Curry is far more popular, and most people have such disgust for Durant that they have a bad taste in their mouth. The fact that Durant wins this vote easily is a true testament to the fact that it is genuinely not close.

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Durant is the better individual talent. Curry is the better player within the team game.

Heediot
09-23-2018, 02:38 PM
Also Durant may be better defensively, but Curry can beat you with his mind too. He surveys the floor better makes better reads, knows how to kill defenses on and off the ball. These subtle things are under-rated, which is why I love guys who aren't the most physically gifted but beats you with your mind. The reason why I think cp3 is so great is he was mvp level even with a killer knee injury. Still plays good d as an aging pg, the guy beats you with his mind, that's why I think cp and curry age well, that Houston contract won't be that bad IMO.

Jeffy25
09-23-2018, 02:46 PM
I don't think you do. Curry is far more popular, and most people have such disgust for Durant that they have a bad taste in their mouth. The fact that Durant wins this vote easily is a true testament to the fact that it is genuinely not close.

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yup

Vinylman
09-23-2018, 03:31 PM
this is a joke... right?


its HER and it isn't even close

Heediot
09-23-2018, 03:37 PM
lead man? He won back to back mvps as the lead man and IT WAS CURRY/GREEN/KLAY that ran out and begged him to come there so they dont get Lebrond ever again... They begged a dude to save them because they choked against lebron up 3-1 with 2 games left at home and needed a closer.

that broad still has to prove it on his own team no matter how u spin it. bron would've beg his *** too if the cavs had cap. bron probably gave him a call this summer and will do it again if he's available.

Heediot
09-23-2018, 03:39 PM
kd is the goat robin. as the batman he isn't there. curry aint the greatest batman either, but at least he was the catalyst with his own team.

WaDe03
09-23-2018, 04:15 PM
kd is the goat robin. as the batman he isn't there. curry aint the greatest batman either, but at least he was the catalyst with his own team.

Robins donít win finals MVP every year.

Heediot
09-23-2018, 05:20 PM
Robins donít win finals MVP every year.

Robins join a stacked historic offense and a 70 win team.

Heediot
09-23-2018, 05:24 PM
im busy with the nfl but I got a juicy rebuttal about kd awaiting. revolving around historic offenses and why you need a certain focal point and i'll consider the current style of play and generation.

IKnowHoops
09-23-2018, 06:26 PM
Curry does have a more nuclear level of offensive impact he can reach at his peak. But Iíll take the guy who can never be stopped.

Allphakenny1
09-23-2018, 07:04 PM
This is such a close argument, that those saying it is not close are just showing their lack of basketball knowledge. Durant is the better individual talent who can play both ends better and be the guy to get you the bucket when needed. Curry is the better winner who elevates the entire team maybe as much as as any player all time. Even on elite teams, when Curry sits, they struggle without him.

It really just depends on what you value more, but it appears Curry gives a team a better chance at winning than Durant.

FlashBolt
09-23-2018, 11:37 PM
Also Durant may be better defensively, but Curry can beat you with his mind too. He surveys the floor better makes better reads, knows how to kill defenses on and off the ball. These subtle things are under-rated, which is why I love guys who aren't the most physically gifted but beats you with your mind. The reason why I think cp3 is so great is he was mvp level even with a killer knee injury. Still plays good d as an aging pg, the guy beats you with his mind, that's why I think cp and curry age well, that Houston contract won't be that bad IMO.

Lmao, stfu about this. Curry isn't exactly a very smart player. You make it seem like he's doing some jedi force mind trick ********. Durant is better than Curry, period. LeBron would rather play vs Curry than Durant, period. It's just facts.

Jamiecballer
09-23-2018, 11:41 PM
He beats him with his mind and he is good if you prefer winning. It's great stuff isnt it.

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FlashBolt
09-24-2018, 12:39 AM
He beats him with his mind and he is good if you prefer winning. It's great stuff isnt it.

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Crap like that is so overrated and especially when it's a total lie.

Heediot
09-24-2018, 05:43 AM
Lmao, stfu about this. Curry isn't exactly a very smart player. You make it seem like he's doing some jedi force mind trick ********. Durant is better than Curry, period. LeBron would rather play vs Curry than Durant, period. It's just facts.

Curry makes bone headed decision sometimes true, so did Kobe. Kobe more-so due to his eo. But both these guys have a tonne better feel for the game and higher ball IQ vs. Durant. Curry has a way better feel and knows how to manipulate and draw in defenses better, which is big for me.

The most dominant offenses historically have either a big man drawing in defenses, and or a wing/guard that knows how to collapse defenses through penetration and vision. The former more-so in today's game. As good as KD is individually he does neither.

Sure KD is better on defense, but neither guy would be a catalysts for a historic. Even with defense as his weakness, Curry was still part of a nice defense with or without KD.

Magic and Bird have better passing and vision vs. KD and ran dominant 80's teams
Isiah had better vision and penetration
MJ had a way better feel, vision, and knew how to manipulate defenses better
Spurs had Manu and Parker penetrating more as the rules changed, Manu for sure has a better feel/iq
Kobe has too much ego but I personally think, he can survey the floor better
Bron - No need to explain

Shaq, Dream, Kareem. Duncan (first decade, Spurs adapted to the evolving rules, letting the guards due more work on offense in his latter half decade), were all bigs that knew how to suck in defenses and control a game.

Curry is closer in terms of that kind of impact vs. KD.

KD is just an efficient regular season scorer from the field and in the playoffs with Curry and S. His shooting numbers without Curry/GS especially from 3 takes a big dip. KD knows how to score better in certain situations, but when you want to build a dominant and historically respected offense (regular season) or an offense that is championship playoff caliber KD hasn't proven squat without GS.

I don't think KD can control a game and or collapse a defense which is why I think Curry is better in a team game.

Chronz
09-24-2018, 05:51 AM
Robins donít win finals MVP every year.
The goat Robin's do

ewing
09-24-2018, 06:24 AM
I love it when Curry just keeps missing so KD can drop 40 plus. So smart


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Hawkeye15
09-24-2018, 09:39 AM
They both limited what each other will eventually land on. Curry will get the benefit of the doubt, he was drafted to GS, and was part of their uprising, and won 2 MVP's prior to Durant coming over. But Curry will still have the stigma of a super duper team with him, so his accomplishments will be watered down a bit (team wise). Durant, absolutely set a cap on how high most will rank him.

I would guess Curry ends up top 12-15, Durant around the same. But, Durant would have been top 10 ever had he not tucked his tail in between his legs and ran to GS.

Heediot
09-24-2018, 10:40 AM
I love it when Curry just keeps missing so KD can drop 40 plus. So smart


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KD is the better individual talent. His length and ability to score is one of the best ever. Curry is the better player to build a dynasty/historic team around with his ability and game. I'm taking the latter.

KD/AD/Kyrie/Melo are the type of guys you throw the ball to if you want a bucket, some guys being more efficient and effective vs. others. I don't think they are what other posters call engine guys. Some being more ball stopping like Melo/DMC/AI/Kyrie in Cle types.

Some posters don't think Curry plays with his brain, but the guy knows what he's doing on and off the ball. I will admit he takes some ****ed up shots sometimes which makes him seem low iq, but the overall results speak for themselves. The guy knows how to control and dictate the terms on offense.

ewing
09-24-2018, 10:48 AM
KD is the better individual talent. His length and ability to score is one of the best ever. Curry is the better player to build a dynasty/historic team around with his ability and game. I'm taking the latter.

KD/AD/Kyrie/Melo are the type of guys you throw the ball to if you want a bucket, some guys being more efficient and effective vs. others. I don't think they are what other posters call engine guys. Some being more ball stopping like Melo/DMC/AI/Kyrie in Cle types.

Some posters don't think Curry plays with his brain, but the guy knows what he's doing on and off the ball. I will admit he takes some ****ed up shots sometimes which makes him seem low iq, but the overall results speak for themselves. The guy knows how to control and dictate the terms on offense.

The guy is a great player. It's just funny the length people will go to when looking to support an opinion

Heediot
09-24-2018, 10:54 AM
The guy is a great player. It's just funny the length people will go to when looking to support an opinion

Flashbolt is a troll, and resorts to pathetic name calling and swearing. Both guys have an argument, I'm siding with Curry. Sometimes you need to flesh out what you see in order to get people to understand your perspective no?

ewing
09-24-2018, 11:51 AM
Flashbolt is a troll, and resorts to pathetic name calling and swearing. Both guys have an argument, I'm siding with Curry. Sometimes you need to flesh out what you see in order to get people to understand your perspective no?

I generally agree with most of your takes. I was only joking b/c it came up in another thread where people were basically giving Curry massive credit even when he played poorly

AcuŮa4MVP
09-24-2018, 12:01 PM
I think both Curry/Durant hurt each others games.

Curry is better without KD, seen by the 15 and 16 MVP seasons, and Curry's numbers have taken a hit since KD joined him. But KD is a better all-around player, and is more feared as a player than Curry. Curry has too many bad games at the big stage to be considered better than KD.

The advanced stat nerds will say Curry though.

All-time it's tough to say, if Curry never wins a Finals MVP, and GS 3-peats, KD wins it again, that's tough on Curry's legacy. If KD leaves GS this summer, joins another team, knocks out GS in the process, it would prove he's the more important player and would help his legacy.

Vinylman
09-24-2018, 12:02 PM
KD is the better individual talent. His length and ability to score is one of the best ever. Curry is the better player to build a dynasty/historic team around with his ability and game. I'm taking the latter.

KD/AD/Kyrie/Melo are the type of guys you throw the ball to if you want a bucket, some guys being more efficient and effective vs. others. I don't think they are what other posters call engine guys. Some being more ball stopping like Melo/DMC/AI/Kyrie in Cle types.

Some posters don't think Curry plays with his brain, but the guy knows what he's doing on and off the ball. I will admit he takes some ****ed up shots sometimes which makes him seem low iq, but the overall results speak for themselves. The guy knows how to control and dictate the terms on offense.

pure garbage... you completely ignore context... put KD on those first two GS teams and they don't lose either of those finals...


IF GM's were asked to start a team with either KD or Curry it wouldn't even be close


Curry's is a great player but he is no SHE


and I can't stand HER

Heediot
09-24-2018, 12:28 PM
pure garbage... you completely ignore context... put KD on those first two GS teams and they don't lose either of those finals...


IF GM's were asked to start a team with either KD or Curry it wouldn't even be close


Curry's is a great player but he is no SHE


and I can't stand HER

I disagree, GS team changes completely without Curry. Chemistry matters and how to build a team off an individual player matters too. GS has proven to be well built off of Curry, and the Chemistry is better with Curry on the court vs. KD.

KD is the better individual player, but the proof is in the pudding as to who is better to build around.

Two years ago Curry was the renowned number 2, challenging bron for number 1 according to almost all. So joining a stacked team that gives you the easiest looks in life sudden changes the perception. I don't know. I can see the what have you done for me lately thing, it is what it is though. Just look at KD's number from 3 before he joined GS and even last year in the early rounds when Curry was out.

Chronz
09-24-2018, 12:34 PM
I love it when Curry just keeps missing so KD can drop 40 plus. So smart


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Shaq did it for kobe sometimes

Chronz
09-24-2018, 12:38 PM
I think both Curry/Durant hurt each others games.

Curry is better without KD, seen by the 15 and 16 MVP seasons, and Curry's numbers have taken a hit since KD joined him. But KD is a better all-around player, and is more feared as a player than Curry. Curry has too many bad games at the big stage to be considered better than KD.

The advanced stat nerds will say Curry though.

All-time it's tough to say, if Curry never wins a Finals MVP, and GS 3-peats, KD wins it again, that's tough on Curry's legacy. If KD leaves GS this summer, joins another team, knocks out GS in the process, it would prove he's the more important player and would help his legacy.
Kd has too many bad games before reaching the big stage tho. I don't get why people think he's unstoppable when midgets have had success against him

ewing
09-24-2018, 12:42 PM
Shaq did it for kobe sometimes

Id like to be a fly on the wall when those smart guys have a discussion


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valade16
09-24-2018, 12:47 PM
It's funny because this is only a debate because KD went soft and joined Curry. Is this even a question if KD doesn't tuck tail and go to GS?

Heediot
09-24-2018, 01:02 PM
It's funny because this is only a debate because KD went soft and joined Curry. Is this even a question if KD doesn't tuck tail and go to GS?

KD had a tonne of talent to work with and had his chances for glory before GS, so I think the question is legit. The year he left for GS was ripe for him and OKC to bounce GS with a hobbled Curry. They had a few chances to close especially game 6 at home. His shooting numbers from the field took a solid dip in the playoffs pre-gs years, so that's something to marinate on. Both guys shooting numbers from the field took a dip without each other but Curry was still stroking 3's over .400 though. Paul and Tony Allen was giving KD fits like Chronz said, so he's not as unstoppable as his last few finals suggest.

EthanHarris
09-24-2018, 01:03 PM
I think KD is an amazing player, but SC is a player with a talent that nobody has!

IKnowHoops
09-24-2018, 01:31 PM
The goat Robin's do

😂

nastynice
09-24-2018, 01:48 PM
Curry is a gimmick player, doesnít play defense, needs a all-star team around him to succeed, Durant has shown he can carry teams. Lmfao at the thought of Curry/Westbrook

Curry doesn't play defense...?

Have you watched the warriors?

nastynice
09-24-2018, 01:53 PM
I can see arguements for both but push comes to shove I'm taking Curry.

Curry is irreplaceable. If you want rings, curry is the guy. KD is a stud, one of the best one on one players I ever seen, easily gonna **** all over kobe at this pace, but the curry effect is just too much to ignore

IKnowHoops
09-24-2018, 01:55 PM
Kd has too many bad games before reaching the big stage tho. I don't get why people think he's unstoppable when midgets have had success against him

Yeah I remember dude in Memphis did him dirty like 6 years ago, but since then...

nastynice
09-24-2018, 01:58 PM
Curry does have a more nuclear level of offensive impact he can reach at his peak. But Iíll take the guy who can never be stopped.

Lmaoooo

I love it! :nod::nod:

Hawkeye15
09-24-2018, 02:01 PM
It's funny because this is only a debate because KD went soft and joined Curry. Is this even a question if KD doesn't tuck tail and go to GS?

I read it as who will end up higher all time? Durant just killed his legacy with his move, to me, and a lot of fans. Like, he is clearly a top 5-6 talent ever, but do you think there is any way he ends up top 10?

valade16
09-24-2018, 02:13 PM
I read it as who will end up higher all time? Durant just killed his legacy with his move, to me, and a lot of fans. Like, he is clearly a top 5-6 talent ever, but do you think there is any way he ends up top 10?

Yeah that's what I mean. if KD doesn't go to GS does he even win a ring? I don't care how good KD is, nobody gets to the top 10 without a ring.

ewing
09-24-2018, 02:22 PM
Curry has sex with me with his mind

mngopher35
09-24-2018, 02:28 PM
Yeah that's what I mean. if KD doesn't go to GS does he even win a ring? I don't care how good KD is, nobody gets to the top 10 without a ring.

Before KD hopped on for the ride it was very clearly Curry who the masses favored. I stated it when the move was made but Durant is far more likely to benefit off of this relationship than the other way around. Currys biggest asset is spacing and creating opportunities for others with an insane gravity (pull on the defense) while KD doesn't have that but is maybe the best in the nba at taking advantage of scoring opportunities (and now gets some of the easiest). He is in the perfect situation to maximize his skillset with the defenses not focused in on him at all like they normally would be and due to that is seen as the best player (it's not as exciting watching 2 people run at Curry leaving an open lane as it is watching the dunk but one of those things had the real impact/creation for the other).

R. Johnson#3
09-24-2018, 02:31 PM
It's funny because this is only a debate because KD went soft and joined Curry. Is this even a question if KD doesn't tuck tail and go to GS?

Nailed it.

Hawkeye15
09-24-2018, 02:32 PM
Before KD hopped on for the ride it was very clearly Curry who the masses favored. I stated it when the move was made but Durant is far more likely to benefit off of this relationship than the other way around. Currys biggest asset is spacing and creating opportunities for others with an insane gravity (pull on the defense) while KD doesn't have that but is maybe the best in the nba at taking advantage of scoring opportunities (and now gets some of the easiest). He is in the perfect situation to maximize his skillset with the defenses not focused in on him at all like they normally would be and due to that is seen as the best player (it's not as exciting watching 2 people run at Curry leaving an open lane as it is watching the dunk but one of those things had the real impact/creation for the other).

what a world when you are Durant and the opposing team groups you in with the "let's let them beat us", while they gang up on Curry. Like, I am watching the finals, and I just kept repeating, "I have never seen someone on Durant's level given so much ****ing freedom" haha. That woman went to GS to take candy from a baby man, it's just ridiculous.

nastynice
09-24-2018, 03:11 PM
pure garbage... you completely ignore context... put KD on those first two GS teams and they don't lose either of those finals...


IF GM's were asked to start a team with either KD or Curry it wouldn't even be close


Curry's is a great player but he is no SHE


and I can't stand HER

You really think so? I doubt it. I doubt we even make 2 finals in a row without curry

Hawkeye15
09-24-2018, 03:14 PM
You really think so? I doubt it. I doubt we even make 2 finals in a row without curry

with Durant/Klay/Green and bench? yeah, ya do. No problem

nastynice
09-24-2018, 03:15 PM
Lmao, stfu about this. Curry isn't exactly a very smart player. You make it seem like he's doing some jedi force mind trick ********. Durant is better than Curry, period. LeBron would rather play vs Curry than Durant, period. It's just facts.

Haha, curry is NOTICEABLY smart.

Maybe strong. He's not very strong, you meant

nastynice
09-24-2018, 03:17 PM
with Durant/Klay/Green and bench? yeah, ya do. No problem

Remember the first few games of the Rox series last year? THAT is probably what the Warriors look like going thru kd, I think they were clearly a notch below as a team

nastynice
09-24-2018, 03:18 PM
what a world when you are Durant and the opposing team groups you in with the "let's let them beat us", while they gang up on Curry. Like, I am watching the finals, and I just kept repeating, "I have never seen someone on Durant's level given so much ****ing freedom" haha. That woman went to GS to take candy from a baby man, it's just ridiculous.

Some call it ridiculous.

Some call it dominance.

:)

AcuŮa4MVP
09-24-2018, 04:02 PM
Kd has too many bad games before reaching the big stage tho. I don't get why people think he's unstoppable when midgets have had success against him

He's not unstoppable, no player is, but he's clearly a better player than Curry is.

Chronz
09-24-2018, 07:49 PM
He's not unstoppable, no player is, but he's clearly a better player than Curry is.

You're clearly deranged

TrueFan420
09-25-2018, 01:14 AM
Curry has sex with me with his mind

I don't think they make a condom for that. You might wanna get checked out.

GREATNESS ONE
09-25-2018, 01:20 AM
I don't think they make a condom for that. You might wanna get checked out.

Are you saying Curry has STDís?

IKnowHoops
09-25-2018, 02:50 AM
Are you saying Curry has STDís?

Wait are you implying STDís can be spread mentally?

GREATNESS ONE
09-25-2018, 11:27 AM
Wait are you implying STDís can be spread mentally?

Holy ****! Run for your lives!

TrueFan420
09-25-2018, 11:35 AM
Are you saying Curry has STDís?

You can never be too safe. Who knows who else he might be mind *******.

FlashBolt
09-25-2018, 01:11 PM
I read it as who will end up higher all time? Durant just killed his legacy with his move, to me, and a lot of fans. Like, he is clearly a top 5-6 talent ever, but do you think there is any way he ends up top 10?

Durant also saved Curry's legacy from getting whooped by LeBron in the Finals so it was a mutual benefit for both. Throw all the narratives away and there is no question Durant will be ranked higher. More achieved and just a better player.

valade16
09-25-2018, 01:17 PM
Durant also saved Curry's legacy from getting whooped by LeBron in the Finals so it was a mutual benefit for both. Throw all the narratives away and there is no question Durant will be ranked higher. More achieved and just a better player.

Not really, Curry already had a ring. Maybe he gets another, maybe he doesn't, but Curry hasn't really gotten much benefit from KD joining the Warriors because who is going to give either of them credit for being on such a stacked team?

I doubt KD gets ranked higher for staying with GS in that I think they both get rated about the same. He's more achieved only because he joined Curry, take out his GS time and Curry achieved more (in a shorter time) than KD. Not to mention, him being a flat out better player is debatable.

GREATNESS ONE
09-25-2018, 01:20 PM
I feel like V is a undercover GSW fan lol

valade16
09-25-2018, 01:28 PM
I feel like V is a undercover GSW fan lol

Probably because of the SF logo as my picture, but I'm not. I actually hate GS because they've ruined the NBA. There's no point in watching knowing who is going to win the title.

mightybosstone
09-25-2018, 01:38 PM
Definitely Durant for me, and unless he falls off or injuries cut his career short, I don't really see any way Curry could pass him.

Curry's skillset is beyond ridiculous, and he'll go down as the greatest shooter in NBA history. You could also make an argument that peak Curry is maybe slightly better than peak Durant. But whatever edge Curry's best seasons might have over Durant's best seasons don't make up for the following facts:

1. Durant has been an elite player for much, much longer. He was averaging 30/8/3/1/1 in his third year in the league at age 21 in 2009-10, which was Curry's rookie year. And it took Curry a really long time to hit elite status. He didn't make his first all-star game until his fifth season in 2013-14. Since they're essentially the same age, that gives Durant essentially 4-5 extra seasons of All-Star caliber play. That means he'll have an edge in pretty much every single historical statistical category and accolade.

2. Curry's 3-point shooting and scoring efficiency is off the charts, and he's clearly the superior playmaker (although not really elite in that area). But aside from those three areas, is there a single aspect of basketball you'd rank Curry higher than Durant? Durant is just a much more all-around player, in addition to historically being the better scorer.

3. Durant may have had to join the stacked Warriors to win his titles, but his postseason performance is just better than Curry's. Their career postseason numbers are relatively close, but Durant just joined a team with Steph Curry on it and won back-to-back Finals MVPs, having huge games in some of the biggest moments and just clearly outplaying Curry in the last two postseasons. When you're the same age and both in your primes and play for the same team, the better player will prove himself in the biggest moments. That guy has clearly been Durant, and I'm not sure how you'd prove otherwise.

So if you're going with Curry, what's your argument? I just don't think you have a leg to stand on.

valade16
09-25-2018, 01:42 PM
Definitely Durant for me, and unless he falls off or injuries cut his career short, I don't really see any way Curry could pass him.

Curry's skillset is beyond ridiculous, and he'll go down as the greatest shooter in NBA history. You could also make an argument that peak Curry is maybe slightly better than peak Durant. But whatever edge Curry's best seasons might have over Durant's best seasons don't make up for the following facts:

1. Durant has been an elite player for much, much longer. He was averaging 30/8/3/1/1 in his third year in the league at age 21 in 2009-10, which was Curry's rookie year. And it took Curry a really long time to hit elite status. He didn't make his first all-star game until his fifth season in 2013-14. Since they're essentially the same age, that gives Durant essentially 4-5 extra seasons of All-Star caliber play. That means he'll have an edge in pretty much every single historical statistical category and accolade.

2. Curry's 3-point shooting and scoring efficiency is off the charts, and he's clearly the superior playmaker (although not really elite in that area). But aside from those three areas, is there a single aspect of basketball you'd rank Curry higher than Durant? Durant is just a much more all-around player, in addition to historically being the better scorer.

3. Durant may have had to join the stacked Warriors to win his titles, but his postseason performance is just better than Curry's. Their career postseason numbers are relatively close, but Durant just joined a team with Steph Curry on it and won back-to-back Finals MVPs, having huge games in some of the biggest moments and just clearly outplaying Curry in the last two postseasons. When you're the same age and both in your primes and play for the same team, the better player will prove himself in the biggest moments. That guy has clearly been Durant, and I'm not sure how you'd prove otherwise.

So if you're going with Curry, what's your argument? I just don't think you have a leg to stand on.

You just said two of them (peak Curry > peak KD) and KD had to join a stacked Warriors team to win titles lol.

I don't think you're crazy saying either one, but both certainly have a leg to stand on.

FlashBolt
09-25-2018, 01:47 PM
Not really, Curry already had a ring. Maybe he gets another, maybe he doesn't, but Curry hasn't really gotten much benefit from KD joining the Warriors because who is going to give either of them credit for being on such a stacked team?

I doubt KD gets ranked higher for staying with GS in that I think they both get rated about the same. He's more achieved only because he joined Curry, take out his GS time and Curry achieved more (in a shorter time) than KD. Not to mention, him being a flat out better player is debatable.

And lost Finals MVP to Iguodala so it's not as touted as it should be. It was a mutual benefit. Both parties benefited. But KD being a better player solidifies himself as the better option for the Warriors in big games and that is where KD elevates himself past Curry and will continue winning awards that Curry won't win. 1 MVP and 1 extra ring is what Curry has on Durant. Durant's got numerous scoring titles, Finals MVP's, and has simply achieved more. There is no debate to be had here. "Debatable." No, not really anymore. Durant's a better player by most measures.

FlashBolt
09-25-2018, 01:49 PM
You just said two of them (peak Curry > peak KD) and KD had to join a stacked Warriors team to win titles lol.

I don't think you're crazy saying either one, but both certainly have a leg to stand on.

This isn't about peak and KD joining a stacked Warriors team doesn't mean Curry doesn't benefit. And for you to say, "Curry didn't benefit a lot" is a very big lie considering he was getting mocked for his disturbing Finals performances before KD joined.

mightybosstone
09-25-2018, 01:53 PM
You just said two of them (peak Curry > peak KD) and KD had to join a stacked Warriors team to win titles lol.

I don't think you're crazy saying either one, but both certainly have a leg to stand on.

OK, but how much better is peak Curry to peak Durant? That gap is so ridiculously marginal that I don't know how that makes up for Durant having essentially 4-5 more years of elite play AND being the superior player in the playoffs, especially considering he's been the better player since they've played together.

I get the whole "we have to knock Durant because he joined the Warriors at his peak" thing. But ultimately, his career resume is just much stronger at this point. Couple that with the "who is the better player when they're on the floor together" argument (it's Durant for me, no question), and I just don't see the argument for Curry over Durant. That argument is weak and based more on hate for Durant than it is in real basketball factors.

valade16
09-25-2018, 01:54 PM
This isn't about peak and KD joining a stacked Warriors team doesn't mean Curry doesn't benefit. And for you to say, "Curry didn't benefit a lot" is a very big lie considering he was getting mocked for his disturbing Finals performances before KD joined.

And he's still getting mocked for his disturbing Finals performances so how did he benefit in that regard lol?

valade16
09-25-2018, 01:56 PM
And lost Finals MVP to Iguodala so it's not as touted as it should be. It was a mutual benefit. Both parties benefited. But KD being a better player solidifies himself as the better option for the Warriors in big games and that is where KD elevates himself past Curry and will continue winning awards that Curry won't win. 1 MVP and 1 extra ring is what Curry has on Durant. Durant's got numerous scoring titles, Finals MVP's, and has simply achieved more. There is no debate to be had here. "Debatable." No, not really anymore. Durant's a better player by most measures.

First Bolded: Still more touted than KD's 0 before the Dubs...

Second Bolded: Since joining the Warriors yes... which was my point. Curry achieved more before KD joined the Dubs.

But I get it, you still have a hard on for your franchise piece KD (and likely hate Curry for doing him and the Thunder dirty in the WCF) so there's not really much point talking to you about this.

valade16
09-25-2018, 02:02 PM
OK, but how much better is peak Curry to peak Durant? That gap is so ridiculously marginal that I don't know how that makes up for Durant having essentially 4-5 more years of elite play AND being the superior player in the playoffs, especially considering he's been the better player since they've played together.

I get the whole "we have to knock Durant because he joined the Warriors at his peak" thing. But ultimately, his career resume is just much stronger at this point. Couple that with the "who is the better player when they're on the floor together" argument (it's Durant for me, no question), and I just don't see the argument for Curry over Durant. That argument is weak and based more on hate for Durant than it is in real basketball factors.

Well that's likely your problem then.

I also don't think you can say with confidence that KD was the better player in the playoffs prior to him joining the Warriors.

KD: 23.6 PER | .575 TS% | .177 TS% | 4.8 BPM
Curry: 22.3 PER | .595 TS% | .179 TS% | 6.6 BPM


I mean, it seems to me the main real argument you have for KD being higher than Curry all-time is that he's done really well for himself since joining Curry. I guess we'll see who people think when it's all said and done.

GREATNESS ONE
09-25-2018, 02:03 PM
Probably because of the SF logo as my picture, but I'm not. I actually hate GS because they've ruined the NBA. There's no point in watching knowing who is going to win the title.

Lmfao stop it V. Your secret is out!

valade16
09-25-2018, 02:05 PM
Lmfao stop it V. Your secret is out!

I wish I were a secret Warriors fan, it would make the next however many years they plan on winning bearable. Alas, I'm stuck rooting for LeBron James to do the impossible and take them down like everyone else.

GREATNESS ONE
09-25-2018, 02:17 PM
I wish I were a secret Warriors fan, it would make the next however many years they plan on winning bearable. Alas, I'm stuck rooting for LeBron James to do the impossible and take them down like everyone else.

Ah ahahaha come on down V! We got plenty of room for you :)

valade16
09-25-2018, 02:19 PM
Ah ahahaha come on down V! We got plenty of room for you :)

Sorry, as a Blazer fan I can't. Lakers are essentially satan to us!

mngopher35
09-25-2018, 02:22 PM
Curry has been hurt by KD joining if anything, what benefit does he get individually the last couple years? All I can see is if you are a RINGZZZ guy. Again look at how things flipped in favor of Durant over that time, it was predictable the second they joined up given how teams play Curry to stop him (and did so more to Westy than KD because he just isn't a threat to create like others).

GREATNESS ONE
09-25-2018, 02:25 PM
Sorry, as a Blazer fan I can't. Lakers are essentially satan to us!

It's ok, just one year ;) I look forward to you in the Lakers forum GT

IKnowHoops
09-25-2018, 02:44 PM
Well that's likely your problem then.

I also don't think you can say with confidence that KD was the better player in the playoffs prior to him joining the Warriors.

KD: 23.6 PER | .575 TS% | .177 TS% | 4.8 BPM
Curry: 22.3 PER | .595 TS% | .179 TS% | 6.6 BPM


I mean, it seems to me the main real argument you have for KD being higher than Curry all-time is that he's done really well for himself since joining Curry. I guess we'll see who people think when it's all said and done.

My question is, why do we compare these chumps to Lebron? These numbers arenít close.

Scoots
09-25-2018, 03:00 PM
I wish I were a secret Warriors fan, it would make the next however many years they plan on winning bearable. Alas, I'm stuck rooting for LeBron James to do the impossible and take them down like everyone else.

Not too much longer before the Warriors slide starts.

ewing
09-25-2018, 03:07 PM
Durrant is taller. Case closed

nastynice
09-25-2018, 03:25 PM
Curry is the system, people seem to just completely not even take this into account.

Taking system over player is definitely arguable. It's also a bit unfair since this is a system built around curry, not Durant, so maybe if lacob and Co build around Durant we would see things different

But as is, curry system tried and true

mightybosstone
09-25-2018, 04:34 PM
Well that's likely your problem then.

I also don't think you can say with confidence that KD was the better player in the playoffs prior to him joining the Warriors.

KD: 23.6 PER | .575 TS% | .177 TS% | 4.8 BPM
Curry: 22.3 PER | .595 TS% | .179 TS% | 6.6 BPM

I mean, it seems to me the main real argument you have for KD being higher than Curry all-time is that he's done really well for himself since joining Curry. I guess we'll see who people think when it's all said and done.

But why are we only taking the playoffs prior to him joining the Warriors into account? The last two years absolutely matter, and in those years, Durant has been better.

Also, you're kind of ignoring the whole "Durant has 4-5 more years of being an elite NBA player" point. That's kind of a big one, especially since Curry is older. You can't just ignore that. Right now, Curry's entire career as an elite player in the league is only like five seasons long, and he's already hit 30. Given his previous history with his ankles, I'm not sure he's got five more years of this caliber of play left in him.

If at the end of their careers, Curry has only 8-9 seasons of elite play and Durant has 13-14, how can you not take that into account? A comparable comparison for me would be Wade and Kobe. Wade's peak was certainly stronger, but Kobe's prime was far longer. Are you going to rank Wade higher in an all-time list? I kinda doubt it.

mightybosstone
09-25-2018, 04:36 PM
Curry is the system, people seem to just completely not even take this into account.

Taking system over player is definitely arguable. It's also a bit unfair since this is a system built around curry, not Durant, so maybe if lacob and Co build around Durant we would see things different

But as is, curry system tried and true

What does this even mean? Who cares about the "system?" The question isn't "Who is the easier player to build a contender around if you have other elite 3-point shooters and a great supporting cast?" It's "Who deserves to be ranked higher in an all-time historic conversation?"

Hawkeye15
09-25-2018, 04:47 PM
But why are we only taking the playoffs prior to him joining the Warriors into account? The last two years absolutely matter, and in those years, Durant has been better.

Also, you're kind of ignoring the whole "Durant has 4-5 more years of being an elite NBA player" point. That's kind of a big one, especially since Curry is older. You can't just ignore that. Right now, Curry's entire career as an elite player in the league is only like five seasons long, and he's already hit 30. Given his previous history with his ankles, I'm not sure he's got five more years of this caliber of play left in him.

If at the end of their careers, Curry has only 8-9 seasons of elite play and Durant has 13-14, how can you not take that into account? A comparable comparison for me would be Wade and Kobe. Wade's peak was certainly stronger, but Kobe's prime was far longer. Are you going to rank Wade higher in an all-time list? I kinda doubt it.

but we need to assign context to both Curry and Durant playoff numbers the last 2 years. Ever seen any all timer with the freedom Durant has had the last 2 finals for example? He sees nothing but 1-1 matchups. While Curry is seeing the defensive focus.

Just saying..

valade16
09-25-2018, 04:57 PM
But why are we only taking the playoffs prior to him joining the Warriors into account? The last two years absolutely matter, and in those years, Durant has been better.

Also, you're kind of ignoring the whole "Durant has 4-5 more years of being an elite NBA player" point. That's kind of a big one, especially since Curry is older. You can't just ignore that. Right now, Curry's entire career as an elite player in the league is only like five seasons long, and he's already hit 30. Given his previous history with his ankles, I'm not sure he's got five more years of this caliber of play left in him.

If at the end of their careers, Curry has only 8-9 seasons of elite play and Durant has 13-14, how can you not take that into account? A comparable comparison for me would be Wade and Kobe. Wade's peak was certainly stronger, but Kobe's prime was far longer. Are you going to rank Wade higher in an all-time list? I kinda doubt it.

First Bolded: Well in the thread about who you'd take Curry or Kyrie I was told we can't use Curry's playoff numbers since Durant joined because they were too stacked. But even using them, are you going to account for the fact that the Cavs most specifically (but also others) setup their defenses to stop Curry? I hope KD outplayed Curry vs the Cavs with the Cavs focusing on shutting down Curry.

Second Bolded: Because being great long doesn't necessarily mean much in all honesty. How much higher is Karl Malone ranked because he was good forever? He was elite for twice as long as Bird and Magic. It matters, but it's not the end all be all really. Otherwise Kareem would be GOAT, Malone Top 10 and Parish Top 25.

mightybosstone
09-25-2018, 05:21 PM
First Bolded: Well in the thread about who you'd take Curry or Kyrie I was told we can't use Curry's playoff numbers since Durant joined because they were too stacked. But even using them, are you going to account for the fact that the Cavs most specifically (but also others) setup their defenses to stop Curry? I hope KD outplayed Curry vs the Cavs with the Cavs focusing on shutting down Curry.
Awww.... Poor Steph. You think he's going to be OK? :violin:


Second Bolded: Because being great long doesn't necessarily mean much in all honesty. How much higher is Karl Malone ranked because he was good forever? He was elite for twice as long as Bird and Magic. It matters, but it's not the end all be all really. Otherwise Kareem would be GOAT, Malone Top 10 and Parish Top 25.
Malone was also a massive playoff choker whose postseason numbers were abysmal. And Kareem's career numbers don't come close to matching the dominance of MJ or Lebron. These aren't great examples, dude. Parish? Really?

I'm talking about two players who peaked at the same time whose peaks are really, really close, but one guy has frankly had a much longer, overall stronger prime. Saying "look how great Curry was in 2015-16!" is fine, but you can't just gloss over those first four seasons from 2009-13 where he wasn't remotely the player he would later become. Curry's 1-2 best seasons were probably a little better than anything Durant accomplished, but Durant has been consistently dominant for WAY longer, and his career statistical averages completely dwarf Curry because Curry took so long to peak. That matters.

mightybosstone
09-25-2018, 05:29 PM
but we need to assign context to both Curry and Durant playoff numbers the last 2 years. Ever seen any all timer with the freedom Durant has had the last 2 finals for example? He sees nothing but 1-1 matchups. While Curry is seeing the defensive focus.

Just saying..

I'm not sure I'm OK with this weird new trend of non-Warriors fans making excuses for Curry. It's a little odd to me.

And I watched A LOT of the Warriors last postseason. Durant was completely unguardable. Houston threw everything at him, and he just destroyed us. Curry doesn't have that same innate ability. When the game slows down in the playoffs, and you're forced to get a basket in a 1-on-1 isolation situation, Curry isn't remotely as dangerous as Durant. He's undoubtedly got some moves, but if that 28-footer isn't falling, he can become a non-factor pretty quickly. Durant has no obvious weaknesses in his game.

valade16
09-25-2018, 05:32 PM
Awww.... Poor Steph. You think he's going to be OK? :violin:

Malone was also a massive playoff choker whose postseason numbers were abysmal. And Kareem's career numbers don't come close to matching the dominance of MJ or Lebron. These aren't great examples, dude. Parish? Really?

I'm talking about two players who peaked at the same time whose peaks are really, really close, but one guy has frankly had a much longer, overall stronger prime. Saying "look how great Curry was in 2015-16!" is fine, but you can't just gloss over those first four seasons from 2009-13 where he wasn't remotely the player he would later become. Curry's 1-2 best seasons were probably a little better than anything Durant accomplished, but Durant has been consistently dominant for WAY longer, and his career statistical averages completely dwarf Curry because Curry took so long to peak. That matters.

I'm sure Steph will be fine, it's your argument I'm more concerned about since your only rebuttal to the fact that Steph clearly faced more defensive attention is to turn into a juvenile posting condescending emojis. I'll take that as a you have no actual counter.

WaDe03
09-25-2018, 05:33 PM
Has any star player ever had as many passes/excuses for bad play in big games/moments as Curry?

valade16
09-25-2018, 05:36 PM
Has any star player ever had as many passes/excuses for bad play in big games/moments as Curry?

LeBron

Chronz
09-25-2018, 05:47 PM
Has any star player ever had as many passes/excuses for bad play in big games/moments as Curry?
Kd

WaDe03
09-25-2018, 05:49 PM
LeBron

When? He got killed for his 2011 finals, other than that heís been great.

WaDe03
09-25-2018, 05:52 PM
Kd

When? I canít remember many.

When it comes to curry itís always ďI know he was doing 360 dunks off an oop in warmups but heís hurtĒ or ďbut the defense only watches himĒ or ďbut gravityĒ.

Itís literally always some excuse for the dude.

valade16
09-25-2018, 05:56 PM
When? He got killed for his 2011 finals, other than that heís been great.

Seriously? the debate about how many excuses LeBron gets for coming up short has been going on for like a decade now lol. And I'm on the pro-LeBron side.

mngopher35
09-25-2018, 05:58 PM
Has any star player ever had as many passes/excuses for bad play in big games/moments as Curry?

before joining GS KD

Fell off hard vs. Memphis in last few games of series, Outplayed by Westy against SA (one of bigger drop offs in history for MVP from RS to post season), the GS loss then running to them. Those were his last 3 playoffs runs before he decided he needed more help to look better.

It's almost like he has completely relied on the openings created on the court by the players/system he joined to overcome his issues instead of actually stepping up as a basketball player (I would argue he's not the best offensive or defensive player on his own team).

WaDe03
09-25-2018, 06:47 PM
Seriously? the debate about how many excuses LeBron gets for coming up short has been going on for like a decade now lol. And I'm on the pro-LeBron side.

But thatís not from his performance, heís usually always dominant. Iím talking strictly performance based.

valade16
09-25-2018, 06:59 PM
But thatís not from his performance, heís usually always dominant. Iím talking strictly performance based.

Well he flat out quit on the Cavs in the Semis vs Boston before going to Miami, and then laid a turd in the Finals vs Dirk. Not to mention he shot abysmally vs the Warriors in their first finals (seriously, 196 shots to score 215 points).

LeBron has some stinkers to his resume for sure.

ewing
09-25-2018, 07:26 PM
When? I canít remember many.

When it comes to curry itís always ďI know he was doing 360 dunks off an oop in warmups but heís hurtĒ or ďbut the defense only watches himĒ or ďbut gravityĒ.

Itís literally always some excuse for the dude.

agreed. It out of hand. He doesn't need it b/c he is a great player but when he isn't great wah wah wah

valade16
09-25-2018, 07:30 PM
agreed. It's out of hand. He doesn't need it b/c he is a great player but when he isn't great wah wah wah

You feel the same way about Bron though so...

GREATNESS ONE
09-25-2018, 08:08 PM
Has any star player ever had as many passes/excuses for bad play in big games/moments as Curry?

Wade?

mightybosstone
09-25-2018, 08:15 PM
I'm sure Steph will be fine, it's your argument I'm more concerned about since your only rebuttal to the fact that Steph clearly faced more defensive attention is to turn into a juvenile posting condescending emojis. I'll take that as a you have no actual counter.

My point is that you guys are making excuses for why he hasn't shown up in the postseason, and I just think that's asinine. Every star player gets a defense's attention on given possessions. The idea that defenses only pay attention to Curry on every possession, and Durant is left to do whatever the hell he wants while getting guarded by a cardboard cutout of a defender is completely ****ing absurd.

I watched the Warriors in the playoffs. There were plenty of times where the Rockets would double him to get the ball out of his hand. I saw them switch damn near every defender on their team on Durant, and it didn't make a difference. I have no clue where this idea that teams aren't gameplanning to try and stop Durant defensively comes from, but I assure you it's completely false.

And there are VERY few people on this forum who hate Durant as much as I do. I loathe the guy. But ultimately I'll give the guy respect when it's due, and he's earned his spot ahead of Curry in the all-time pecking order.

valade16
09-25-2018, 08:25 PM
My point is that you guys are making excuses for why he hasn't shown up in the postseason, and I just think that's asinine. Every star player gets a defense's attention on given possessions. The idea that defenses only pay attention to Curry on every possession, and Durant is left to do whatever the hell he wants while getting guarded by a cardboard cutout of a defender is completely ****ing absurd.

I watched the Warriors in the playoffs. There were plenty of times where the Rockets would double him to get the ball out of his hand. I saw them switch damn near every defender on their team on Durant, and it didn't make a difference. I have no clue where this idea that teams aren't gameplanning to try and stop Durant defensively comes from, but I assure you it's completely false.

And there are VERY few people on this forum who hate Durant as much as I do. I loathe the guy. But ultimately I'll give the guy respect when it's due, and he's earned his spot ahead of Curry in the all-time pecking order.

Stop sensationalizing my points when you say sensationalist garbage like that. Quite acting like the dude has never shown up in the postseason. If you really watched the Warriors in the playoffs then what is the Rockets series proof of?

G7 Curry put up 27 pts, 10 asts, 9 rbds, 4 stls, 5 TOs and 7/15 3's to KD's 34 pts, 5 asts, 5 rbds, 3 blcks, 2 TOs, 5/11 3's.

G6 KD scored 23 pts on 6/17 while Curry went 12/23 (5/14 3's) for 29 pts.

G5 KD scored 29 pts on 8/22 shooting and had 4 rbds, 0 asts, 2 TO's while Curry scored 22 pts on 8/17 shooting with 7 rbds, 6 asts, 4 stls, 3 TOs

Heck, after KD's sensational G1 and G2, Curry outplayed him that series. So I'm curious, what did you see from Curry that series?


I think as much as you hate KD, you hate Curry more (whether you admit it or even realize it or not).

mightybosstone
09-25-2018, 08:42 PM
Stop sensationalizing my points when you say sensationalist garbage like that. Quite acting like the dude has never shown up in the postseason. If you really watched the Warriors in the playoffs then what is the Rockets series proof of?

G7 Curry put up 27 pts, 10 asts, 9 rbds, 4 stls, 5 TOs and 7/15 3's to KD's 34 pts, 5 asts, 5 rbds, 3 blcks, 2 TOs, 5/11 3's.

G6 KD scored 23 pts on 6/17 while Curry went 12/23 (5/14 3's) for 29 pts.

G5 KD scored 29 pts on 8/22 shooting and had 4 rbds, 0 asts, 2 TO's while Curry scored 22 pts on 8/17 shooting with 7 rbds, 6 asts, 4 stls, 3 TOs

Heck, after KD's sensational G1 and G2, Curry outplayed him that series. So I'm curious, what did you see from Curry that series?


I think as much as you hate KD, you hate Curry more (whether you admit it or even realize it or not).

Durant was the better, more efficient player throughout the series. Also, Durant had a far greater impact on the defensive end. The Rockets were pretty consistently switching on Curry for defensive mismatches throughout the series. I can assure you there was no switching onto Durant.

And, yes, Durant was sensational in those first two games. That's kind of my point. Curry would disappear for huge chunks of games, then hit a couple of 3-pointers and everyone lost their ****ing minds. But I haven't seen Curry dominate on the big stage in the postseason the way Durant has at times. You can cherry pick stats of individual games all you want, but you and I both know Durant has been the superior postseason player. You're just doing whatever you can to poke holes in the numbers, because you know what the numbers say without me having to post them.

I'm kind of done with this argument, though. I've made my points fairly clear, and I honestly think Durant > Curry all-time is pretty much common sense. PSD posters and public opinion would agree with me. You're certainly entitled to your opinions, but there aren't a ton of good arguments to be made for Curry > Durant that don't essentially boil down to "Durant is a douche."

valade16
09-25-2018, 08:48 PM
Durant was the better, more efficient player throughout the series. Also, Durant had a far greater impact on the defensive end. The Rockets were pretty consistently switching on Curry for defensive mismatches throughout the series. I can assure you there was no switching onto Durant.

And, yes, Durant was sensational in those first two games. That's kind of my point. Curry would disappear for huge chunks of games, then hit a couple of 3-pointers and everyone lost their ****ing minds. But I haven't seen Curry dominate on the big stage in the postseason the way Durant has at times. You can cherry pick stats of individual games all you want, but you and I both know Durant has been the superior postseason player. You're just doing whatever you can to poke holes in the numbers, because you know what the numbers say without me having to post them.

I'm kind of done with this argument, though. I've made my points fairly clear, and I honestly think Durant > Curry all-time is pretty much common sense. PSD posters and public opinion would agree with me. You're certainly entitled to your opinions, but there aren't a ton of good arguments to be made for Curry > Durant that don't essentially boil down to "Durant is a douche."

First Bolded: Except for literally Games 3-7 lol.

Second Bolded: postseason stats:

KD: 24.2 PER | .591 TS% | .197 WS/48 | 5.5 BPM
Curry: 23.1 PER | .606 TS% | .196 WS/48 | 7.4 BPM

You can say KD has been the superior postseason player all you want, it doesn't make it true.


I'm glad your done with the argument, since I'm tired of seeing you say "I am going to ignore any point counter to mine". I can see how someone who ignores others could say there's no argument for Curry > KD all time though. You have made your arguments fairly clear, what you haven't done is listened to anything counter to your arguments. Hopefully one day, you will. But I don't intend to keep trying to make you see them.

Saddletramp
09-25-2018, 09:02 PM
Well he flat out quit on the Cavs in the Semis vs Boston before going to Miami, and then laid a turd in the Finals vs Dirk. Not to mention he shot abysmally vs the Warriors in their first finals (seriously, 196 shots to score 215 points).

LeBron has some stinkers to his resume for sure.

Talk about ďsensationalizingĒ. Itís hard to quit when youíre never in it with teammates like those Cavs in the first place. The Dallas series, correct (although itís been argued he didnít know how to win with talent around him until he decided to take over after that year-but a choke is a choke). And that series against The Warriors where Delly was his Robin? Come the **** on. He was still enormous as a one man band.

mightybosstone
09-25-2018, 09:19 PM
First Bolded: Except for literally Games 3-7 lol.

Second Bolded: postseason stats:

KD: 24.2 PER | .591 TS% | .197 WS/48 | 5.5 BPM
Curry: 23.1 PER | .606 TS% | .196 WS/48 | 7.4 BPM

You can say KD has been the superior postseason player all you want, it doesn't make it true.


I'm glad your done with the argument, since I'm tired of seeing you say "I am going to ignore any point counter to mine". I can see how someone who ignores others could say there's no argument for Curry > KD all time though. You have made your arguments fairly clear, what you haven't done is listened to anything counter to your arguments. Hopefully one day, you will. But I don't intend to keep trying to make you see them.
I'm not ignoring them. I just flat out don't agree with them. Durant's been great for longer, and his postseason numbers are a little better. Factor in his superiority as a scorer and defender, and I just think it's a fairly obvious argument. You've done nothing to disprove any of that.

Also, the stats for individual games you posted weren't exactly huge advantages for Curry.

But it's OK, Valade. We can agree to disagree. Chill out.

Hawkeye15
09-25-2018, 09:36 PM
I'm not sure I'm OK with this weird new trend of non-Warriors fans making excuses for Curry. It's a little odd to me.

And I watched A LOT of the Warriors last postseason. Durant was completely unguardable. Houston threw everything at him, and he just destroyed us. Curry doesn't have that same innate ability. When the game slows down in the playoffs, and you're forced to get a basket in a 1-on-1 isolation situation, Curry isn't remotely as dangerous as Durant. He's undoubtedly got some moves, but if that 28-footer isn't falling, he can become a non-factor pretty quickly. Durant has no obvious weaknesses in his game.

Nobody but Jordan is better 1-1 than KD. That is my point. Under no other circumstance would he get so many iso matchups, Curry and his roster allow it to happen. KD shouldn't get extra credit for having such awesome teammates and the biggest floor bender ever

FlashBolt
09-25-2018, 09:37 PM
I'm not ignoring them. I just flat out don't agree with them. Durant's been great for longer, and his postseason numbers are a little better. Factor in his superiority as a scorer and defender, and I just think it's a fairly obvious argument. You've done nothing to disprove any of that.

Also, the stats for individual games you posted weren't exactly huge advantages for Curry.

But it's OK, Valade. We can agree to disagree. Chill out.

Lol. I said it to him 100+ times already and he never does. Just gotta walk away before it gets personal.

FlashBolt
09-25-2018, 09:39 PM
First Bolded: Still more touted than KD's 0 before the Dubs...

Second Bolded: Since joining the Warriors yes... which was my point. Curry achieved more before KD joined the Dubs.

But I get it, you still have a hard on for your franchise piece KD (and likely hate Curry for doing him and the Thunder dirty in the WCF) so there's not really much point talking to you about this.

I have a hard-on for the guy who left OKC and called us out? Lmao, bro, you are just a joke now man. It's funny you think because I happen to be an OKC fan that I can't possibly have KD above Curry. You are seriously becoming terrible at this. You should reevaluate your role here because it's borderline pathetic.

FlashBolt
09-25-2018, 09:42 PM
Valade16, seriously, read over your comments. You're embarrassing yourself from a human perspective. Get a grip and stop being a d-bag.

FlashBolt
09-25-2018, 09:45 PM
Seriously? the debate about how many excuses LeBron gets for coming up short has been going on for like a decade now lol. And I'm on the pro-LeBron side.

He gets constantly destroyed for his Finals losses even when he plays like the best player. You're just saying this because you need "evidence" to support your Curry case. No one here agrees with you so you get emotional and start getting aggressive. Please reevaluate your mental health.

nastynice
09-25-2018, 09:50 PM
What does this even mean? Who cares about the "system?" The question isn't "Who is the easier player to build a contender around if you have other elite 3-point shooters and a great supporting cast?" It's "Who deserves to be ranked higher in an all-time historic conversation?"

This is part of what curry brings to the table, giving teammates freedom and space, thus part of all time historic convo

Saddletramp
09-26-2018, 03:52 AM
This is part of what curry brings to the table, giving teammates freedom and space, thus part of all time historic convo

Funny how that system wasnít around at this level before Kerr joined on and tweaked the roster a bit. Curry was good pre-Kerr, not championship winning, MVP Curry.

Vinylman
09-26-2018, 09:12 AM
Lol. I said it to him 100+ times already and he never does. Just gotta walk away before it gets personal.

he is never wrong Ö just ask him Ö he will tell you all about it.

FlashBolt
09-26-2018, 09:39 AM
he is never wrong Ö just ask him Ö he will tell you all about it.

If I say he is right, he will say he is wrong just so he can find something to argue about.

ewing
09-26-2018, 10:54 AM
Nobody but Jordan is better 1-1 than KD. That is my point. Under no other circumstance would he get so many iso matchups, Curry and his roster allow it to happen. KD shouldn't get extra credit for having such awesome teammates and the biggest floor bender ever

I heard that his bending powers are not limited to floors, apparently he can bend spoons with his mind! Can KD do that guys?

Hawkeye15
09-26-2018, 11:46 AM
I heard that his bending powers are not limited to floors, apparently he can bend spoons with his mind! Can KD do that guys?

only Curry and Neo dude.

GREATNESS ONE
09-26-2018, 11:49 AM
he is never wrong Ö just ask him Ö he will tell you all about it.


If I say he is right, he will say he is wrong just so he can find something to argue about.

:laugh:

valade16
09-26-2018, 11:52 AM
I'm not ignoring them. I just flat out don't agree with them. Durant's been great for longer, and his postseason numbers are a little better. Factor in his superiority as a scorer and defender, and I just think it's a fairly obvious argument. You've done nothing to disprove any of that.

Also, the stats for individual games you posted weren't exactly huge advantages for Curry.

But it's OK, Valade. We can agree to disagree. Chill out.

It's not that we are disagreeing, you are saying things like KD's postseason stats are a little better despite me literally posting them showing that Curry's are the ones that are a little better. What stats do you mean when you say KD's are a little better?

valade16
09-26-2018, 11:55 AM
Lol. I said it to him 100+ times already and he never does. Just gotta walk away before it gets personal.


I have a hard-on for the guy who left OKC and called us out? Lmao, bro, you are just a joke now man. It's funny you think because I happen to be an OKC fan that I can't possibly have KD above Curry. You are seriously becoming terrible at this. You should reevaluate your role here because it's borderline pathetic.


Valade16, seriously, read over your comments. You're embarrassing yourself from a human perspective. Get a grip and stop being a d-bag.


If I say he is right, he will say he is wrong just so he can find something to argue about.

Are you gonna make another post about me or was that it?


He gets constantly destroyed for his Finals losses even when he plays like the best player. You're just saying this because you need "evidence" to support your Curry case. No one here agrees with you so you get emotional and start getting aggressive. Please reevaluate your mental health.

I'm saying it because LeBron has received a ton of excuses for his losses and his play (In fact I'm one of those giving him those excuses).

mightybosstone
09-26-2018, 01:35 PM
It's not that we are disagreeing, you are saying things like KD's postseason stats are a little better despite me literally posting them showing that Curry's are the ones that are a little better. What stats do you mean when you say KD's are a little better?

Durant: 28.8 PPG / 8.0 RPG / 4.0 APG / 1.0 SPG / 1.2 BPG / 3.1 TO with a 24.2 PER, .197 WS/48, 5.5 BPM, 9.7 VORP
Curry: 26.1 PPG / 5.2 RPG / 6.4 APG / 1.7 SPG / 0.7 BPG / 3.6 TO with a 23.1 PER, .196 WS/48, 7.4 BPM, 8.1 VORP

Those are there career numbers. I'd give the edge to Durant, who has an obvious advantage in most advanced statistics and has obviously been the superior scorer. And those numbers also don't factor in three additional points that I think give them added context:

1. Curry didn't get to the playoffs until he was pretty much in his prime or just about to enter it at age 24. Durant drove his team to the playoffs at age 21 in his third year in the league.
2. Their first year together, Curry's numbers were on par with Durant's or maybe slightly better, but Durant was clearly the superior player last postseason by a wide margin both statistically and in terms of the eye test.
3. In both Finals, Durant was obviously the superior player. I'm not going to post the stats because I don't have time, but the two Finals MVPs speak for themselves.

You can certainly feel free to refute these points, but I'm pretty sure the vast majority of fans if asked the question "Who is the better postseason performer?" would answer "Durant" without too much thought behind it. I think the data and the history supports that idea.

valade16
09-26-2018, 01:51 PM
Durant: 28.8 PPG / 8.0 RPG / 4.0 APG / 1.0 SPG / 1.2 BPG / 3.1 TO with a 24.2 PER, .197 WS/48, 5.5 BPM, 9.7 VORP
Curry: 26.1 PPG / 5.2 RPG / 6.4 APG / 1.7 SPG / 0.7 BPG / 3.6 TO with a 23.1 PER, .196 WS/48, 7.4 BPM, 8.1 VORP

Those are there career numbers. I'd give the edge to Durant, who has an obvious advantage in most advanced statistics and has obviously been the superior scorer. And those numbers also don't factor in three additional points that I think give them added context:

1. Curry didn't get to the playoffs until he was pretty much in his prime or just about to enter it at age 24. Durant drove his team to the playoffs at age 21 in his third year in the league.
2. Their first year together, Curry's numbers were on par with Durant's or maybe slightly better, but Durant was clearly the superior player last postseason by a wide margin both statistically and in terms of the eye test.
3. In both Finals, Durant was obviously the superior player. I'm not going to post the stats because I don't have time, but the two Finals MVPs speak for themselves.

You can certainly feel free to refute these points, but I'm pretty sure the vast majority of fans if asked the question "Who is the better postseason performer?" would answer "Durant" without too much thought behind it. I think the data and the history supports that idea.

Really, that's where you're at? Basic rate stats? KD has averaged 40.6 MPG while Curry has averaged 37.7 MPG in their playoff careers, how about looking at per100 possession numbers? And including VORP is a little disingenuous considering it's an accumulation stat, KD's VORP is out of 127 games, Curry's is out of 90. KD's VORP per game is lower than Curry's (.09 to .076).

Durant: 36.3 Pts, 10.1 Rbds, 5.0 Asts, 1.3 Stls, 1.5 Blks, 3.9 TO, 24.2 PER, .591 TS%, .197 WS/48, 5.5 BPM
Curry: 34.6 Pts, 6.9 Rbds, 8.5 Asts, 2.3 Stls, 0.4 Blks, 4.8 TO, 23.1 PER, .606 TS%, .196 WS/48, 7.4 BPM

As for advanced stats, if you really want to say that .197 is materially different from .196, feel free to try. Those are essentially even. Curry crushes KD in BPM, is slightly lower in PER and is slightly higher in TS%. And he produces more VORP per game. Advanced statistics favor Curry.

As for the vast majority of NBA fans saying that, I think they'd say that without too much thought behind it is because they don't put too much though behind it. The vast majority of NBA fans would say AI is one of the greatest scorers ever without too much thought, care to co-opt there opinion for that as well?


Statistics show Curry has been statistically better in the playoffs.

This is sort of the exact opposite of the Kyrie-Curry thread, where people were adamant that there was an argument for both and you shouldn't say it's Curry without question, but now it's KD without question and there is no argument for both Steph and KD.

I'm not saying Curry will for sure go down ranked higher, there's a lot of seasons left. What if KD leaves and goes to LA? But I'm saying there's an argument to be made for both. If you think KD's argument is stronger, I can respect that. Saying there's 0 argument for Curry? I do not respect that. There is a case for both. Curry has revolutionized the league and more people will remember someone who does something groundbreaking like his 3pointers than someone who was just very good.

Hawkeye15
09-26-2018, 02:01 PM
Really, that's where you're at? Basic rate stats? KD has averaged 40.6 MPG while Curry has averaged 37.7 MPG in their playoff careers, how about looking at per100 possession numbers? And including VORP is a little disingenuous considering it's an accumulation stat, KD's VORP is out of 127 games, Curry's is out of 90. KD's VORP per game is lower than Curry's (.09 to .076).

Durant: 36.3 P]ts, 10.1 Rbds, 5.0 Asts, 1.3 Stls, 1.5 Blks, 3.9 TO, 24.2 PER, .591 TS%, .197 WS/48, 5.5 BPM
Curry: 34.6 Pts, 6.9 Rbds, 8.5 Asts, 2.3 Stls, 0.4 Blks, 4.8 TO, 23.1 PER, ].606 TS%, .196 WS/48, 7.4 BPM

As for advanced stats, if you really want to say that .197 is materially different from .196, feel free to try. Those are essentially even. Curry crushes KD in BPM, is slightly lower in PER and is slightly higher in TS%. And he produces more VORP per game. Advanced statistics favor Curry.

As for the vast majority of NBA fans saying that, I think they'd say that without too much thought behind it is because they don't put too much though behind it. The vast majority of NBA fans would say AI is one of the greatest scorers ever without too much thought, care to co-opt there opinion for that as well?


Statistics show Curry has been statistically better in the playoffs. Prior to KD joining the Warriors it wasn't even close, and I'd mention the single coverage KD faced in his Finals performances but apparently that doesn't matter so there's no point.

This is sort of the exact opposite of the Kyrie-Curry thread, which is funny because everyone made it a point that saying Curry is the only right answer is stupid and that there's an argument for both, and it seems many of those same people are now in this thread saying that there's 0 argument for Curry and if you say there's an argument for either you're stupid.

I'm not saying Curry will for sure go down ranked higher, there's a lot of seasons left. What if KD leaves and goes to LA? But I'm saying there's an argument to be made for both. If you think KD's argument is stronger, I can respect that. Saying there's 0 argument for Curry? I do not respect that, especially since we can look at the same stats and despite them not favoring KD, you believe they do. I think that's ultimately where your opinion that there's no argument for Curry comes from.

This part blows me away. Under no circumstance has anyone on Durant's 1-1 scoring level ever been given the freedom he has had the last 2 runs. That MUST be accounted for. Imagine Jordan, or LeBron's numbers, if they never saw more than a single defender in deep playoff runs. I mean, it's ****ing unheard of, and it's the definition of inflated numbers.

Hawkeye15
09-26-2018, 02:03 PM
Btw, I still say Durant is the better all time player. But his pansy move will absolutely cap where he is ranked all time by many. Curry likely ends up higher all time, simply because of Durant's move.

valade16
09-26-2018, 02:07 PM
This part blows me away. Under no circumstance has anyone on Durant's 1-1 scoring level ever been given the freedom he has had the last 2 runs. That MUST be accounted for. Imagine Jordan, or LeBron's numbers, if they never saw more than a single defender in deep playoff runs. I mean, it's ****ing unheard of, and it's the definition of inflated numbers.

Shhh, you can't bring that up. Context is not allowed here.

IKnowHoops
09-26-2018, 02:51 PM
Seriously? the debate about how many excuses LeBron gets for coming up short has been going on for like a decade now lol. And I'm on the pro-LeBron side.

WTF...when has he had playoff numbers like curry? Dude common your better than that. Losing a game which is what Bron has done and playing badly and being shut down respective to what you do in the regular season is what has happened to Curry over and over again. Win or lose Bron balls the F out. Stop.

IKnowHoops
09-26-2018, 03:00 PM
I think itís very close. You canít really go wrong. You just play to the strengths of the guy you got a dominate.

ewing
09-26-2018, 03:05 PM
Shhh, you can't bring that up. Context is not allowed here.

Maybe people disagree with what you see as context. This idea that Cleveland was like go get yours Kevin Durrant we're going put 4 guys on Curry is laughable to me. If GS ran a good set to get Curry an isolation they would have gotten him one. They didn't do that though b/c KD is a lot better at scoring in those spots. I really have no explanation for you two going to a treg extreme with regard to Curry other then being enamored with "gravity". If you have one offer it up but I didn't see one last time. If your bottom line is they are both great and if there is a gap its not so big that Curry cant make it up I'm with ya. Its the context of your argument I disagree with

Hawkeye15
09-26-2018, 03:07 PM
Maybe people disagree with what you see as context. This idea that Cleveland was like go get yours Kevin Durrant we're going put 4 guys on Curry is laughable to me. If GS ran a good set to get Curry an isolation they would have gotten him one. They didn't do that though b/c KD is a lot better at scoring in those spots. I really have no explanation for you two going to a treg extreme with regard to Curry other then being enamored with "gravity". If you have one offer it up but I didn't see one last time. If your bottom line is they are both great and if there is a gap its not so big that Curry cant make it up I'm with ya. Its the context of your argument I disagree with

I don't care to watch it over again play for play, but I remember vividly commenting to my brother, "why on earth is Cleveland not sending help at Durant, he is killing them". Like, I was blown away at how many 1-1 matchups Durant saw throughout both series.

Chronz
09-26-2018, 03:59 PM
Shhh, you can't bring that up. Context is not allowed here.

Kd has the talent but also midgets on him galore and still needs Kerr to drill him to pass

Chronz
09-26-2018, 04:02 PM
When has curry ever played as badly as kd has in the loffs?

IKnowHoops
09-26-2018, 04:06 PM
I don't care to watch it over again play for play, but I remember vividly commenting to my brother, "why on earth is Cleveland not sending help at Durant, he is killing them". Like, I was blown away at how many 1-1 matchups Durant saw throughout both series.

Curry could of been seeing the same one on one matchups just not able to capitalize. Remember Bron can go get on Curry tough and force Curry to pass. Bron on Durant doesnít deter or slot Durant down in anyway. Durant can go one on one and get the super easy wide open look against anyone. Curry get a 3 off from anywhere, but Durant can get any shot he wants anytime he wants. Itís just that simple.

Hawkeye15
09-26-2018, 04:20 PM
Curry could of been seeing the same one on one matchups just not able to capitalize. Remember Bron can go get on Curry tough and force Curry to pass. Bron on Durant doesnít deter or slot Durant down in anyway. Durant can go one on one and get the super easy wide open look against anyone. Curry get a 3 off from anywhere, but Durant can get any shot he wants anytime he wants. Itís just that simple.

so basically concede that Durant is going to kill you so pile up on the others?

IKnowHoops
09-26-2018, 04:44 PM
so basically concede that Durant is going to kill you so pile up on the others?

No I think everyone is getting one on one coverage.

valade16
09-26-2018, 04:45 PM
WTF...when has he had playoff numbers like curry? Dude common your better than that. Losing a game which is what Bron has done and playing badly and being shut down respective to what you do in the regular season is what has happened to Curry over and over again. Win or lose Bron balls the F out. Stop.

First Bolded: Seriously? LeBron's 2011 Finals was worse than any Finals Curry has had.

Second Bolded: You mean minus the times he just quit on his teammates lol?


And keep in mind, I'm the guy who was defending LeBron in those instances and saying how great he was. But it's funny now that the chic person to hate is Curry not Bron that suddenly everyone wants to pretend like they didn't say LeBron gets excuses for the last 10 years in their need to denigrate Curry. It's very bizarre really.


Maybe people disagree with what you see as context. This idea that Cleveland was like go get yours Kevin Durrant we're going put 4 guys on Curry is laughable to me. If GS ran a good set to get Curry an isolation they would have gotten him one. They didn't do that though b/c KD is a lot better at scoring in those spots. I really have no explanation for you two going to a treg extreme with regard to Curry other then being enamored with "gravity". If you have one offer it up but I didn't see one last time. If your bottom line is they are both great and if there is a gap its not so big that Curry cant make it up I'm with ya. Its the context of your argument I disagree with

You seem to be laughing at the extremes to which we are speaking about this phenomenon but you are denying that it happened entirely so I'm really at a loss on what I can offer up that can convince you the Cavs gameplanned primarly to slow down Curry. Here is an article talking about it:

https://www.cleveland.com/cavs/index.ssf/2017/06/lebron_james_not_guarding_kevi.html

In the last two Finals the only strategy that has worked for the Cavs against the two-time MVP is sending multiple defenders at him on basically every possession, forcing the ball out of his hands and making him uncomfortable.


So when I show examples that the Cavs were focused on stopping Curry and you just say "I don't believe it", I don't know what else to offer.

Jamiecballer
09-26-2018, 04:53 PM
Has any star player ever had as many passes/excuses for bad play in big games/moments as Curry?DeRozan

Sent from my SM-A520W using Tapatalk

valade16
09-26-2018, 04:57 PM
Here's another article that talks about it:

https://www.cleveland.com/cavs/index.ssf/2017/06/cleveland_cavaliers_altering_d.html

The Cavs' have altered their plan against Curry as well. Early on, they were too nervous about trapping him the way they did during last year's Finals, according to one Cavs coach. After all, with two players hounding Curry, that gives the Warriors an offensive advantage. Given their amount of playmakers and scorers, that strategy can backfire.

But Curry was getting too comfortable and the Cavs' defense wasn't aggressive enough so Lue decided to make tweaks and they resulted in Curry's worst game.

When faced with a trap, Curry had to give the ball up, playing into the Cavs' hands. Durant might be in line for Finals MVP at the moment, but Curry is the player the Cavs are most concerned about, believing he's the centerpiece of Golden State's offense, delivering a gravitational pull everywhere he goes.

With added pressure, he's also prone to turnovers, poor shots and building frustration.

Because of the constant on-ball attention, the Warriors were forced to move Curry away from the ball for a bulk of Game 4, where the Cavs were able to get away with grabbing, pushing and holding -- the kind of physical play that lacked in the first three losses. Curry scored a playoff-low 14 points on 4-of-13 from the field and 2-of-9 from beyond the arc

tredigs
09-26-2018, 05:10 PM
Funny how that system wasnít around at this level before Kerr joined on and tweaked the roster a bit. Curry was good pre-Kerr, not championship winning, MVP Curry.
Systems that best cater to the teams top talent always help, but he was clearly already on the brink of greatness with Jackson in 2013. Putting up 24/4/9 on a 61% TS as an All NBA player who was top 5 in the league in Win Shares, VORP, RPM, BPM for the team ranked 4th in the league in SRS. I'd say that borders on MVP level impact, and he was simply not as good as he would later become.

mngopher35
09-26-2018, 05:12 PM
I don't care to watch it over again play for play, but I remember vividly commenting to my brother, "why on earth is Cleveland not sending help at Durant, he is killing them". Like, I was blown away at how many 1-1 matchups Durant saw throughout both series.

Exactly, how do you watch that first Cle series and not see 1v1 against Kyrie/Love/RJ regularily and not think wtf is this? So many seemed to have missed that happening completely though as Cle started playing them like they had the previous year leading to so many ridiculous opportunities (that series was the one where two ran to the 3 pt line and Durant had an easy layup/dunk as a funny/extreme example)

mngopher35
09-26-2018, 05:15 PM
Here's another article that talks about it:

https://www.cleveland.com/cavs/index.ssf/2017/06/cleveland_cavaliers_altering_d.html

The Cavs' have altered their plan against Curry as well. Early on, they were too nervous about trapping him the way they did during last year's Finals, according to one Cavs coach. After all, with two players hounding Curry, that gives the Warriors an offensive advantage. Given their amount of playmakers and scorers, that strategy can backfire.

But Curry was getting too comfortable and the Cavs' defense wasn't aggressive enough so Lue decided to make tweaks and they resulted in Curry's worst game.

When faced with a trap, Curry had to give the ball up, playing into the Cavs' hands. Durant might be in line for Finals MVP at the moment, but Curry is the player the Cavs are most concerned about, believing he's the centerpiece of Golden State's offense, delivering a gravitational pull everywhere he goes.

With added pressure, he's also prone to turnovers, poor shots and building frustration.

Because of the constant on-ball attention, the Warriors were forced to move Curry away from the ball for a bulk of Game 4, where the Cavs were able to get away with grabbing, pushing and holding -- the kind of physical play that lacked in the first three losses. Curry scored a playoff-low 14 points on 4-of-13 from the field and 2-of-9 from beyond the arc

Thanks for posting some of this, not sure why it is so controversial as it has clearly been how teams have played GS (and before he joined most people could tell that was likely given how teams played Curry).

valade16
09-26-2018, 05:18 PM
Thanks for posting some of this, not sure why it is so controversial as it has clearly been how teams have played GS (and before he joined most people could tell that was likely given how teams played Curry).

This used to be commonly accepted knowledge until at some point PSD decided they were no longer going to hate LeBron and they were going to hate Curry instead. Since then they have basically rewrote history to claim that nobody called the context people used for LeBron excuses and that Curry is a playoff choker.

It's what PSD does. I'm most interested in seeing who the next "most hated great player on PSD" will be.

mngopher35
09-26-2018, 05:26 PM
"Overall, Curryís teammates shoot 7.3 percentage points worse with Curry off the court, with his average teammate4 shooting 8.3 points worse. Among our MVP candidates, LeBron has the next-highest impact on average teammate shooting (3.9 points), followed by Westbrook (2.5 points). When it comes to opening up a teamís offense, Curry has no equal."

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-case-for-stephen-curry-mvp/

This article goes more in depth on how Curry helps and creates for others as well, Durant benefits.

Saddletramp
09-26-2018, 05:42 PM
Systems that best cater to the teams top talent always help, but he was clearly already on the brink of greatness with Jackson in 2013. Putting up 24/4/9 on a 61% TS as an All NBA player who was top 5 in the league in Win Shares, VORP, RPM, BPM for the team ranked 4th in the league in SRS. I'd say that borders on MVP level impact, and he was simply not as good as he would later become.

So you agree. Cool.

tredigs
09-26-2018, 05:45 PM
"Overall, Curryís teammates shoot 7.3 percentage points worse with Curry off the court, with his average teammate4 shooting 8.3 points worse. Among our MVP candidates, LeBron has the next-highest impact on average teammate shooting (3.9 points), followed by Westbrook (2.5 points). When it comes to opening up a teamís offense, Curry has no equal."

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-case-for-stephen-curry-mvp/

This article goes more in depth on how Curry helps and creates for others as well, Durant benefits.
Correct, there's also RPM which according to many bball advanced stats professionals would be the best public stat available for predicting team impact, specifically in situations where there is low roster turnover. In the 5 years that particular stat is available, Curry's average is 7.56 (#3 being his lowest O-RPM rating in that time, which happened once), good for an overall average of 3rd in the league each season, and that 7.56 5 year average would be better than any player finished up rated this past season. KD in comparison peaked at listed 4th in his 2013/14 MVP season, and has an average of 5.3 over the 5 seasons, which is good for an average of 14th each season (probably closer to 8th/9th if we removed the role players from the list each year). It's not an end-all stat and is role/roster dependent to an extent, but in Curry's situation in particular where his role and roster have very little turnover, it provides a very good read on just how dominant his floor impact is projected to be each season. And well the numbers speak for themselves.


So you agree. Cool.
You're trying to make it appear that the impact may not have come without Kerr. I'm showing you that that impact was WELL on it's way, and in most metrics/eye-test already very clearly at borderline if not simply actual MVP level. That said, his ball-handling and finishing around the rim would continue to improve along with his shot selection (more layups, FT's, 3's), and along with the smarter offensive coaching scheme catered to him, helped create an indisputable GOAT level offensive player.

nastynice
09-26-2018, 05:50 PM
Funny how that system wasnít around at this level before Kerr joined on and tweaked the roster a bit. Curry was good pre-Kerr, not championship winning, MVP Curry.

What diff does that make? It's still a system predicated on Curry's skillset...

nastynice
09-26-2018, 05:57 PM
This used to be commonly accepted knowledge until at some point PSD decided they were no longer going to hate LeBron and they were going to hate Curry instead. Since then they have basically rewrote history to claim that nobody called the context people used for LeBron excuses and that Curry is a playoff choker.

It's what PSD does. I'm most interested in seeing who the next "most hated great player on PSD" will be.

Hopefully another warrior :)

nastynice
09-26-2018, 05:58 PM
"Overall, Curryís teammates shoot 7.3 percentage points worse with Curry off the court, with his average teammate4 shooting 8.3 points worse. Among our MVP candidates, LeBron has the next-highest impact on average teammate shooting (3.9 points), followed by Westbrook (2.5 points). When it comes to opening up a teamís offense, Curry has no equal."

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-case-for-stephen-curry-mvp/

This article goes more in depth on how Curry helps and creates for others as well, Durant benefits.

This is not something to live and die by, but thanks for putting what curry supporters are saying into numbers. This is a huge part of why curry is so highly ranked and paid, can't just ignore it.

IKnowHoops
09-26-2018, 05:59 PM
Lol. GS is set up so nobody can be doubled...not just KD.

Usually there are sorry guys in the team to slack in to double. You canít on the Warriors.

KD is just the best player on that team to exploit 1 on 1 coverage.

Yeah KD gets more room than heíd did on OKC. But Curry gets more room than KD gets on OKC too.

Curry gets a lot of easy looks as well, the entire team does. Every 3 Draymond takes is wide the F open and nobody even makes an effort to contest. Itís just GS...Durant just makes everything look so much easier because for him it is.

ewing
09-26-2018, 06:06 PM
First Bolded: Seriously? LeBron's 2011 Finals was worse than any Finals Curry has had.

Second Bolded: You mean minus the times he just quit on his teammates lol?


And keep in mind, I'm the guy who was defending LeBron in those instances and saying how great he was. But it's funny now that the chic person to hate is Curry not Bron that suddenly everyone wants to pretend like they didn't say LeBron gets excuses for the last 10 years in their need to denigrate Curry. It's very bizarre really.



You seem to be laughing at the extremes to which we are speaking about this phenomenon but you are denying that it happened entirely so I'm really at a loss on what I can offer up that can convince you the Cavs gameplanned primarly to slow down Curry. Here is an article talking about it:

https://www.cleveland.com/cavs/index.ssf/2017/06/lebron_james_not_guarding_kevi.html

In the last two Finals the only strategy that has worked for the Cavs against the two-time MVP is sending multiple defenders at him on basically every possession, forcing the ball out of his hands and making him uncomfortable.


So when I show examples that the Cavs were focused on stopping Curry and you just say "I don't believe it", I don't know what else to offer.

Curry is a great scorer and shooter of course he helps open things up but the extreme you are taking this phenomenon to is totally laughable. The Cavs trapped Curry when ever they could because he is that good. Doesn't mean the Warriors couldn't have gotten him one on ones like they got Durrant. Spread the floor and give him the rock 28 feet from the hole on the wing- no screen just curry- he's not getting doubled until the defense has some pray of recovering. Put him in the high post with Klay and KD has his outlets. The doubles wouldn't get there until he takes a couple bounces if they send one- which they wouldn't.

That said Curry draws more D then anyone off his motion, he brings guys out further on the floor then other players, and he gets trapped when in his scoring positions like many other scorers. I'd think its possible that when GS offense is clicking and they are scoring off ball movement he impacts the game as greatly as anyone with his presence. When they go away from that and let KD go to work for himself he is just a floor spacer like any other shooter.

I'm not denying Curry's impact I'm just refuting a narrative that makes any performance of his great.

valade16
09-26-2018, 06:09 PM
Curry is a great scorer and shooter of course he helps open things up but the extreme you are taking this phenomenon to is totally laughable. The Cavs trapped Curry when ever they could because he is that good. Doesn't mean the Warriors couldn't have gotten him one on ones like they got Durrant. Spread the floor and give him the rock 28 feet from the hole on the wing- no screen just curry- he's not getting doubled until the defense has some pray of recovering. Put him in the high post with Klay and KD has his outlets. The doubles wouldn't get there until he takes a couple bounces if they send one- which they wouldn't.

That said Curry draws more D then anyone off his motion, he brings guys out further on the floor then other players, and he gets trapped when in his scoring positions like many other scorers. I'd think its possible that when GS offense is clicking and they are scoring off ball movement he impacts the game as greatly as anyone with his presence. When they go away from that and let KD go to work for himself he is just a floor spacer like any other shooter.

I'm not denying Curry's impact I'm just refuting a narrative that makes any performance of his great.

If you are claiming he's not a great player then yes you are denying Curry's impact (which how can you not be? How can he be a great player if he's never put up a great performance?). Everyone has posted the numbers ad nauseum. I'm certainly not going to try and convince you otherwise yet again.

Are you sure you didn't cut that sentence off prematurely or there's some context there I'm missing? Do you think Curry winning a unanimous MVP was not a great performance?

tredigs
09-26-2018, 06:13 PM
Timely retweet from DSmok on my timeline this past week from Ben Taylor (2 of the smartest bball analysts going right now, have created stats such as BPM, have been contracted to NBA teams, etc).
1042221379834134528
1042510115541213184

I want to be clear I don't necessarily rank Curry above KD's career all time. KD has the clear leg up in high impact seasons over Curry as of right now, but that I think Curry's prime is simply better and more conducive to winning basketball. And I think that's a fairly widely accepted statement the smarter the person you're talking to is about the game.

Side note, Ben Taylor actually has the best, most comprehensive "All Time Career List"* I've ever seen (goes to top 40 and includes lengthy write-ups with tons of video, eye-test and avanced stats analysis), and that's available on his twitter. Here, actually (SPOILER: He has KAJ #1 career). http://www.backpicks.com/2017/12/11/the-backpicks-goat-the-40-best-careers-in-nba-history/

*Last updated the list Decemeber of 2017 and I believe will do so once a year around the same time.

ewing
09-26-2018, 06:14 PM
If you are claiming he's not a great player then yes you are denying Curry's impact (which how can you not be? How can he be a great player if he's never put up a great performance). Everyone has posted the numbers ad nauseum. I'm certainly not going to try and convince you otherwise yet again.

He is great overall when he does thing like go 3 for 16 he wasn't great that night and he wasn't the most impactful guy on the floor. He also inst getting doubles run at him in space the second he crosses half court like you are making it seem and certainly could get one on one isolation opportunities if that what GS wanted.

ewing
09-26-2018, 06:16 PM
If you are claiming he's not a great player then yes you are denying Curry's impact (which how can you not be? How can he be a great player if he's never put up a great performance?). Everyone has posted the numbers ad nauseum. I'm certainly not going to try and convince you otherwise yet again.

Are you sure you didn't cut that sentence off prematurely or there's some context there I'm missing? Do you think Curry winning a unanimous MVP was not a great performance?

Just saw the edit by performance I am saying a game.

valade16
09-26-2018, 06:21 PM
He is great overall when he does thing like go 3 for 16 he wasn't great that night and he wasn't the most impactful guy on the floor. He also inst getting doubles run at him in space the second he crosses half court like you are making it seem and certainly could get one on one isolation opportunities if that what GS wanted.

Well I never said those things nor made it seem like that so perhaps the reason you think I'm wrong is because you're arguing non-existent points.

I did however post articles and stats (as did numerous others) that very clearly demonstrate that Steph received a heavy amount of attention from the Cavs in the Finals. You are just choosing not to believe it. Which is your right. But I can only try to get someone to believe something that's true so long before I stop trying, and that's where I'm at.

The only defense you have against that fact is to exaggerate the level to which he is seeing this attention to juxtapose from your position that he didn't receive any special attention at all. If you want to actually converse about the context and intricacies of the defense he faced and actually admit and discuss to what level and how they impacted the Warriors offense and the scoring of Curry and KD, please let me know.

Otherwise, continue to go on and on as if I'm saying that every time Curry steps on the floor it's the final moments of Space Jam's game where the Monstars are draped on MJ. It's a funny picture, though one I've never painted.

valade16
09-26-2018, 06:21 PM
Just saw the edit by performance I am saying a game.

Are you sure you don't want to amend that further? Are you saying Curry has never had a great game? Not once ever?

mngopher35
09-26-2018, 06:26 PM
This is not something to live and die by, but thanks for putting what curry supporters are saying into numbers. This is a huge part of why curry is so highly ranked and paid, can't just ignore it.

Oh of course, this number alone doesn't mean Curry then some gap as overall players. It does however help get to his effect on the game and what many have talked about in creation/gravity of players. I mentioned alot about Westy being that guy for OKC too and you see him right there with Lebron and Curry in that specific stat (which seems reasonable, along with Harden I would guess but maybe CP3 played into that some). KD is the best individual scorer of that bunch but he definitely lacks in creation and his effect on others compared to those guys.

Think about how teams play GS system before KD and all the switches, traps on Curry, and not leaving protection in the paint. Add in the best individual scorer to all that open space and against any 1v1 matchup you want now. That is KD on GS, of course he looks better than ever and it is definitely due to his choice to run to this team not just him becoming better than Curry individually all of a sudden (remember 2015 and 2016 seasons was all about Curry or Lebron). It doesn't have to be explained in just stats but not everyone agrees with context so numbers help back some of this stuff up too.

ewing
09-26-2018, 06:40 PM
Are you sure you don't want to amend that further? Are you saying Curry has never had a great game? Not once ever?

No. he blows


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Jamiecballer
09-26-2018, 06:42 PM
Curry has a great impact, unquestionably. Where I bristle is at the claim that hes this great great player. All these ancillary benefits that basically stem from his ability to practically hit from half-court dont make him an excellent all-around player like most of the greats.

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valade16
09-26-2018, 06:50 PM
Curry has a great impact, unquestionably. Where I bristle is at the claim that hes this great great player. All these ancillary benefits that basically stem from his ability to practically hit from half-court dont make him an excellent all-around player like most of the greats.

Nor would I ever say he's an all-around player. But you don't have to be to be among the greats. Magic certainly wasn't. I care about impact, not whether you can check all the boxes. Obviously the best of the best will have the greatest impact and be excellent all-around players, like say MJ and Bron, but that's why they're the best.

tredigs
09-26-2018, 06:50 PM
Curry has a great impact, unquestionably. Where I bristle is at the claim that hes this great great player. All these ancillary benefits that basically stem from his ability to practically hit from half-court dont make him an excellent all-around player like most of the greats.

Sent from my SM-A520W using Tapatalk

Are you the type of guy who ranks Steve Nash's impact below a Kevin McHale or Paul Pierce? It's also a very, very tired argument that Curry is this guy who lives and breathes through his shooting alone. You'd think he's Kyle Korver based on so many posts if you didn't know any better.

ewing
09-26-2018, 06:51 PM
Well I never said those things nor made it seem like that so perhaps the reason you think I'm wrong is because you're arguing non-existent points.

I did however post articles and stats (as did numerous others) that very clearly demonstrate that Steph received a heavy amount of attention from the Cavs in the Finals. You are just choosing not to believe it. Which is your right. But I can only try to get someone to believe something that's true so long before I stop trying, and that's where I'm at.

The only defense you have against that fact is to exaggerate the level to which he is seeing this attention to juxtapose from your position that he didn't receive any special attention at all. If you want to actually converse about the context and intricacies of the defense he faced and actually admit and discuss to what level and how they impacted the Warriors offense and the scoring of Curry and KD, please let me know.

Otherwise, continue to go on and on as if I'm saying that every time Curry steps on the floor it's the final moments of Space Jam's game where the Monstars are draped on MJ. It's a funny picture, though one I've never painted.

Iím the one a actually discussing how the defense plays him and how he abd KD impact the game differently. Curry draws more D bc he moves a lot and shoots from really far away, plus heís pretty good on the drive. When Warriors are running there motion sets he is a big catalyst for guys getting open. KD is better at scorer vs a defender from any spot on the floor thus he is a more impactful scoring when you need a bucket right now. His ability to shoot over anyone from anywhere make him impossible to double before he can get a look on GS. Curry is not doubled faster in these spots nor he ďthe reasonĒ KD has space. One guy is a better catalyst and one guy is a better go to scorer. They compliment each other every well in terms of what a team needs to win. Neithers game is very dependent on the other


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valade16
09-26-2018, 06:57 PM
Iím the one a actually discussing how the defense plays him and how he abd KD impact the game differently. Curry draws more D bc he moves a lot and shoots from really far away, plus heís pretty good on the drive. When Warriors are running there motion sets he is a big catalyst for guys getting open. KD is better at scorer vs a defender from any spot on the floor thus he is a more impactful scoring when you need a bucket right now. His ability to shoot over anyone from anywhere make him impossible to double before he can get a look on GS. Curry is not doubled faster in these spots nor he ďthe reasonĒ KD has space. One guy is a better catalyst and one guy is a better go to scorer. They compliment each other every well in terms of what a team needs to win. Neithers game is very dependent on the other

I agree with everything you said here, but that doesn't really address the point of the debate. I guess the most direct way I can ask your thoughts on it are:

Do you think KD faced more, less, or the same amount of 1-on-1 situations with the Warriors (particularly in the Finals) than he did with the Thunder (particularly in the WCF/Finals)?

Heediot
09-26-2018, 06:59 PM
Curry has a great impact, unquestionably. Where I bristle is at the claim that hes this great great player. All these ancillary benefits that basically stem from his ability to practically hit from half-court dont make him an excellent all-around player like most of the greats.

Sent from my SM-A520W using Tapatalk

Neither guy will anchor a historic defense. But one guy will anchor a historic offense.

Saddletramp
09-26-2018, 07:03 PM
Correct, there's also RPM which according to many bball advanced stats professionals would be the best public stat available for predicting team impact, specifically in situations where there is low roster turnover. In the 5 years that particular stat is available, Curry's average is 7.56 (#3 being his lowest O-RPM rating in that time, which happened once), good for an overall average of 3rd in the league each season, and that 7.56 5 year average would be better than any player finished up rated this past season. KD in comparison peaked at listed 4th in his 2013/14 MVP season, and has an average of 5.3 over the 5 seasons, which is good for an average of 14th each season (probably closer to 8th/9th if we removed the role players from the list each year). It's not an end-all stat and is role/roster dependent to an extent, but in Curry's situation in particular where his role and roster have very little turnover, it provides a very good read on just how dominant his floor impact is projected to be each season. And well the numbers speak for themselves.


You're trying to make it appear that the impact may not have come without Kerr. I'm showing you that that impact was WELL on it's way, and in most metrics/eye-test already very clearly at borderline if not simply actual MVP level. That said, his ball-handling and finishing around the rim would continue to improve along with his shot selection (more layups, FT's, 3's), and along with the smarter offensive coaching scheme catered to him, helped create an indisputable GOAT level offensive player.

Which wasnít there until Kerr got there. So again, thanks. Also, it was Kerr who replaced Lee with Green (via injury). Not sure if Jackson woulda done that.

tredigs
09-26-2018, 07:08 PM
Which wasnít there until Kerr got there. So again, thanks. Also, it was Kerr who replaced Lee with Green (via injury). Not sure if Jackson woulda done that.

Yes buddy, you nailed that part and I couldn't agree more. Kerr (mainly the starting of Green, 2 for 2 there), definitely helped the team. You just forgot or are omitting the part where Curry was still improving and already bordering on MVP level impact in 2013.

valade16
09-26-2018, 07:25 PM
Kind of comical how yesterday the people in here were like "nobody agrees with you Vlade" and today there's been an influx of people in here agreeing with me :laugh2:

mngopher35
09-26-2018, 07:46 PM
Curry has a great impact, unquestionably. Where I bristle is at the claim that hes this great great player. All these ancillary benefits that basically stem from his ability to practically hit from half-court dont make him an excellent all-around player like most of the greats.

Sent from my SM-A520W using Tapatalk

The benefit is still there no matter what it stems from. Sure it is different from others who normally rely on size/athletecism like we are used to but as the game has changed we see how big his impact can be even if much of it is from his incredible shot. Shaq at 6'1 wouldn't have been as impressive either but his size was incredible, he had questions defensively even if overstated imo, and absolutely dominated offensively and in overall impact. Very different players but what their impact/greatness stems from isn't nearly as important as the fact it is clearly there. They each had their own type of gravity/dominance given their special abilities even if very different.

I don't think Curry is as good as Shaq btw just using that idea. Curry/KD to me are probably pretty close on the list overall but if I could choose one to lead me these last chunk of years it would be Curry not KD given that skill he utilizes so well for himself/others. Focal point of the defenses because of it. With KD I need another elite player to be the creator imo which I just don't think is true with Curry. Their impacts are pretty close but I just think KD gets overrated some and Curry underrated some since they joined up due to how teams play the Warriors system (although I do think teams adjusted some last year (even mid series) so who knows what happens now with Cousins too lol but KD most definitely benefits off the initial/normal way teams used). Durant is not the leading playmaker/engine/gravity on offense or the best on defense for his team currently and in a role where he gets to maximize his own opportunities with space/help. Most other all time greats don't get this luxury in their careers yet so many appear to not even see it is happening.

ewing
09-26-2018, 08:12 PM
I agree with everything you said here, but that doesn't really address the point of the debate. I guess the most direct way I can ask your thoughts on it are:

Do you think KD faced more, less, or the same amount of 1-on-1 situations with the Warriors (particularly in the Finals) than he did with the Thunder (particularly in the WCF/Finals)?

He has more room on GS but Curry would have a lot less room on OKC too. If Curry didnít need screens as much and could shoot over people like KD heíd be able to score in isolation on his own team better. Playing the 5 on GS more has a huge impact on KD having more room inside the arc too. You seem to be taking credit away from KD for scoring one on one and saying that Curry faces doubles but if Curry could get clean looks one on one like KD heíd have those shots too.


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nastynice
09-26-2018, 09:41 PM
Curry is a great scorer and shooter of course he helps open things up but the extreme you are taking this phenomenon to is totally laughable. The Cavs trapped Curry when ever they could because he is that good. Doesn't mean the Warriors couldn't have gotten him one on ones like they got Durrant. Spread the floor and give him the rock 28 feet from the hole on the wing- no screen just curry- he's not getting doubled until the defense has some pray of recovering. Put him in the high post with Klay and KD has his outlets. The doubles wouldn't get there until he takes a couple bounces if they send one- which they wouldn't.

That said Curry draws more D then anyone off his motion, he brings guys out further on the floor then other players, and he gets trapped when in his scoring positions like many other scorers. I'd think its possible that when GS offense is clicking and they are scoring off ball movement he impacts the game as greatly as anyone with his presence. When they go away from that and let KD go to work for himself he is just a floor spacer like any other shooter.

I'm not denying Curry's impact I'm just refuting a narrative that makes any performance of his great.

Solid post, kd is better one on one so that's his role, iso guy. Let curry move around with or without ball. Gotta play to each guys strength.

Both players are better in diff ways, but I'll say this if we had to keep one and lose the other I'd rather we keep curry, I'd predict we'd have more success moving forward with curry rather than kd.

IKnowHoops
09-26-2018, 10:39 PM
Timely retweet from DSmok on my timeline this past week from Ben Taylor (2 of the smartest bball analysts going right now, have created stats such as BPM, have been contracted to NBA teams, etc).
1042221379834134528
1042510115541213184

I want to be clear I don't necessarily rank Curry above KD's career all time. KD has the clear leg up in high impact seasons over Curry as of right now, but that I think Curry's prime is simply better and more conducive to winning basketball. And I think that's a fairly widely accepted statement the smarter the person you're talking to is about the game.

Side note, Ben Taylor actually has the best, most comprehensive "All Time Career List"* I've ever seen (goes to top 40 and includes lengthy write-ups with tons of video, eye-test and avanced stats analysis), and that's available on his twitter. Here, actually (SPOILER: He has KAJ #1 career). http://www.backpicks.com/2017/12/11/the-backpicks-goat-the-40-best-careers-in-nba-history/

*Last updated the list Decemeber of 2017 and I believe will do so once a year around the same time.

Carmelo > AD and CP3 though

IKnowHoops
09-26-2018, 10:44 PM
Timely retweet from DSmok on my timeline this past week from Ben Taylor (2 of the smartest bball analysts going right now, have created stats such as BPM, have been contracted to NBA teams, etc).
1042221379834134528
1042510115541213184

I want to be clear I don't necessarily rank Curry above KD's career all time. KD has the clear leg up in high impact seasons over Curry as of right now, but that I think Curry's prime is simply better and more conducive to winning basketball. And I think that's a fairly widely accepted statement the smarter the person you're talking to is about the game.

Side note, Ben Taylor actually has the best, most comprehensive "All Time Career List"* I've ever seen (goes to top 40 and includes lengthy write-ups with tons of video, eye-test and avanced stats analysis), and that's available on his twitter. Here, actually (SPOILER: He has KAJ #1 career). http://www.backpicks.com/2017/12/11/the-backpicks-goat-the-40-best-careers-in-nba-history/

*Last updated the list Decemeber of 2017 and I believe will do so once a year around the same time.

His list is very favorable to mine. Switch Drob and KG, not sure how KG is better than Drob since they have the same career but David was just better offensively and Defensively.

Saddletramp
09-26-2018, 11:01 PM
Yes buddy, you nailed that part and I couldn't agree more. Kerr (mainly the starting of Green, 2 for 2 there), definitely helped the team. You just forgot or are omitting the part where Curry was still improving and already bordering on MVP level impact in 2013.

No, I got that part, too:


Funny how that system wasnít around at this level before Kerr joined on and tweaked the roster a bit. Curry was good pre-Kerr, not championship winning, MVP Curry.

Iím not sure he makes that leap without Kerr and Green. Maybe he does, maybe not. Improving every year? Sure. But that was a leap when Kerr came in.

FlashBolt
09-26-2018, 11:35 PM
Lol. Of course they would try to stop Curry over Durant. There's nothing you can do to stop Durant, MJ, LeBron, Shaq, etc., so you go for the next best thing. Curry, contrary to what you may think, can be manipulated into making terrible passes when trapped and due to his size and frame, he can easily be bullied physically. This is simple stuff here. Refer to the ASG in 2018 when Durant and LeBron both trapped Curry. Why? Because it works. He's too small to see past defenders and he's not physical enough to stay in his position. Really, I am confused as to what you think the Cavs could have done to stop Durant. Who, what, why, where, and how do you think that would have happened? These are almost laughable arguments for Curry. Re-read the question: Durant is higher All-Time. As MBT stated, your emotional hatred and feelings for his decision shouldn't determine his ranking from a basketball perspective. Peak prime is arguable but even if the edge goes to Curry, there is an easy argument that Curry had a top five NBA season ever that would put him above many greats such as Magic. Are you putting Curry over Magic or Bird? No you are not. Let's get back to the real question. And the real answer is, Durant has simply achieved more. His decision to join the Warriors doesn't influence the impact he's had on the Warriors. Separate your feelings from logic, please.

FlashBolt
09-26-2018, 11:41 PM
The benefit is still there no matter what it stems from. Sure it is different from others who normally rely on size/athletecism like we are used to but as the game has changed we see how big his impact can be even if much of it is from his incredible shot. Shaq at 6'1 wouldn't have been as impressive either but his size was incredible, he had questions defensively even if overstated imo, and absolutely dominated offensively and in overall impact. Very different players but what their impact/greatness stems from isn't nearly as important as the fact it is clearly there. They each had their own type of gravity/dominance given their special abilities even if very different.

I don't think Curry is as good as Shaq btw just using that idea. Curry/KD to me are probably pretty close on the list overall but if I could choose one to lead me these last chunk of years it would be Curry not KD given that skill he utilizes so well for himself/others. Focal point of the defenses because of it. With KD I need another elite player to be the creator imo which I just don't think is true with Curry. Their impacts are pretty close but I just think KD gets overrated some and Curry underrated some since they joined up due to how teams play the Warriors system (although I do think teams adjusted some last year (even mid series) so who knows what happens now with Cousins too lol but KD most definitely benefits off the initial/normal way teams used). Durant is not the leading playmaker/engine/gravity on offense or the best on defense for his team currently and in a role where he gets to maximize his own opportunities with space/help. Most other all time greats don't get this luxury in their careers yet so many appear to not even see it is happening.

Your evidence thus far has been KD on a Westbrook-led team. If you're going to penalize KD for what you know thus far, please consider the effect Westbrook would have playing with Curry in OKC. Curry would look significantly weaker as a player. Of course, playing in the Warriors system has benefited all parties. You can't tell me KD wouldn't be able to lead this GSW team as their leading playmaker and do it effectively because he's capable of creating and disrupting offenses as well. This engine/gravity/playmaker terminology you throw around sounds impressive until LeBron starts blocking your shots in the Finals numerous times and the opposing team wants a switch on Curry so they can score on him. Who would LeBron rather face? Curry or LeBron? Let's get real: He would choose Curry every single time.

ewing
09-26-2018, 11:51 PM
Solid post, kd is better one on one so that's his role, iso guy. Let curry move around with or without ball. Gotta play to each guys strength.

Both players are better in diff ways, but I'll say this if we had to keep one and lose the other I'd rather we keep curry, I'd predict we'd have more success moving forward with curry rather than kd.

I can dig that. I used to doubt Curryís ability to be a go to scorer but I do think he has improved when it comes to strength and finishing which makes him better at it. He still isnít a top shelf go to guy like Durrant but I he isnít a slough in that role, he is a great overall scorer, plus he is more of an engine for an offense.


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WaDe03
09-26-2018, 11:56 PM
Good list, nice to see Wade getting the credit he deserves for once. Absolute peak Wade is probably better than current Lebron though, Iíll hold off until we see LeBrons defense this year though.

FlashBolt
09-27-2018, 12:00 AM
Good list, nice to see Wade getting the credit he deserves for once. Absolute peak Wade is probably better than current Lebron though, Iíll hold off until we see LeBrons defense this year though.

No he isn't, lol. LeBron is on another level in a way where less than a handful will ever reach.

mngopher35
09-27-2018, 12:02 AM
Your evidence thus far has been KD on a Westbrook-led team. If you're going to penalize KD for what you know thus far, please consider the effect Westbrook would have playing with Curry in OKC. Curry would look significantly weaker as a player. Of course, playing in the Warriors system has benefited all parties. You can't tell me KD wouldn't be able to lead this GSW team as their leading playmaker and do it effectively because he's capable of creating and disrupting offenses as well. This engine/gravity/playmaker terminology you throw around sounds impressive until LeBron starts blocking your shots in the Finals numerous times and the opposing team wants a switch on Curry so they can score on him. Who would LeBron rather face? Curry or LeBron? Let's get real: He would choose Curry every single time.

Why would I consider two overlapping skill sets.

Curry and Westbrook are creators for the team, it is best when the system is run through them. Next to each of these types of players you want an elite scorer so putting Curry in an elite scorer role of course would limit him because that is not his game. It was KD's but the obvious difference here is the lack of attention/matchups other teams can focus on him now and the space within the entire system (GS just has a better roster around for that, not on an individual here).

I have never seen KD as the main focal point and creator of an offense for an entire series except in 2013 against the Grizzlies. The last 3 games of that series he scored 24.3 ppg on 36% shooting and had 4.7 TOPG as they adjusted from a "lets let KD beat us and stop others to lets stop KD at expense of others". This almost never happens to KD, he can get toughest 1v1 matchups but teams almost never play just him because he is never that focal point/creator. The reality is everyone seems to want to pretend KD is capable of being this incredible leader/playmaker at an all time level when he hasn't really proven that at all yet in his career. I mean he went from #3 on that list I posted earlier to #1 in terms of creation/drop off from others when off court. He has always had the benefit of playing within his game, pick and choose best scoring opportunities and not needing to create for others as much. Now he just gets more space and the 1v1 can come off weaker defenders or with less help in the lane etc.

What in the world does Lebron or Curry being who Lebron wants to face? I assume you meant KD btw but sure 1v1 I think he would be more scared of the guy his size. Lebron is 1-0 against KD in the finals when he doesn't have Curry. That's as relevant as whatever point u think this is making.

FlashBolt
09-27-2018, 12:18 AM
Why would I consider two overlapping skill sets.

Curry and Westbrook are creators for the team, it is best when the system is run through them. Next to each of these types of players you want an elite scorer so putting Curry in an elite scorer role of course would limit him because that is not his game. It was KD's but the obvious difference here is the lack of attention/matchups other teams can focus on him now and the space within the entire system (GS just has a better roster around for that, not on an individual here).

I have never seen KD as the main focal point and creator of an offense for an entire series except in 2013 against the Grizzlies. The last 3 games of that series he scored 24.3 ppg on 36% shooting and had 4.7 TOPG. The reality is everyone seems to want to pretend KD is capable of being this incredible leader/playmaker at an all time level when he hasn't really proven that at all yet in his career. I mean he went from #3 on that list I posted earlier to #1 in terms of creation/drop off from others when off court. He has always had the benefit of playing within his game, pick and choose best scoring opportunities and not needing to create for others as much. Now he just gets more space and the 1v1 can come off weaker defenders or with less help in the lane etc.

What in the world does Lebron or Curry being who Lebron wants to face? I assume you meant KD btw but sure 1v1 I think he would be more scared of the guy his size. Lebron is 1-0 against KD in the finals when he doesn't have Curry. That's as relevant as whatever point u think this is making.

As you just stated, your entire judgement on KD has been on an OKC team that was built entirely different than the Warriors. Before KD left, there was rumors that KD was frustrated with how the team was being built in that it was geared towards Westbrook moreso than him. The reason why I brought Curry being with Westbrook is because you have to consider that KD hasn't had the freeflowing type offense that the Warriors (to Curry's defense, he contributed a lot to it) are known for. So again, if you're going to penalize KD for that Memphis series, consider how the team wasn't built to supplement KD. Many OKC fans felt the same way and that was why I advocated for a Westbrook for CP3 trade many years ago. You make it seem as if Curry isn't playing alongside Klay, btw, whos value as a shooter/defender while not needing to dominate the USG% or ball is severely underrated and that benefits a player like Curry who has the ball more and doesn't have to worry about another player changing up the pace.

You can't tell me, from what you saw from KD last season, that KD isn't capable of commanding an offense on a team like the Warriors. You're judging him from his lone Memphis days in which Memphis collapsed their defense on Durant and had Gasol (DPOY) in the paint. That same Memphis team was by far the best defensive team that season. Our second best scorer, Kevin Martin, was still an inexperienced player in the playoffs and was atrocious. Once Harden was traded, our team went downhill in terms of scouting, trades, and team creation.

I brought up LeBron wanting to face Curry over Durant as to show that as great as Curry is, LeBron realizes Durant is the player who comes closest in terms of who he can look up to as a rival. And Durant said the same thing about LeBron.

tredigs
09-27-2018, 12:58 AM
^Jury's still out on KD with that roster without Curry. I personally don't think they'd be very special offensively at all. Curry missed the last month of the season + 1st round and while they took care of the Kawhi-less Spurs of course, they sort of stumbled in there with a 4-6 record (not counting the games they both missed) with KD putting up 28 and 5 on a 53% eFG%. It's fine, but nothing great, and sub-par for him as a 57% eFG% guy on the same volume over the past 7 years (59% eFG alongside Curry and the Warriors the past 2 years). I can tell you from the eye test (and stats wise if we need to get into it) that the offense was absolutely nothing close to dominant (forget Warriors level dominant) without Curry and with KD at the helm. The pace was down, the efficiency was way down, and the blowouts were nowhere to be found. KD being a minus 3.1 on-court in that span fwiw.

mngopher35
09-27-2018, 01:14 AM
As you just stated, your entire judgement on KD has been on an OKC team that was built entirely different than the Warriors. Before KD left, there was rumors that KD was frustrated with how the team was being built in that it was geared towards Westbrook moreso than him. The reason why I brought Curry being with Westbrook is because you have to consider that KD hasn't had the freeflowing type offense that the Warriors (to Curry's defense, he contributed a lot to it) are known for. So again, if you're going to penalize KD for that Memphis series, consider how the team wasn't built to supplement KD. Many OKC fans felt the same way and that was why I advocated for a Westbrook for CP3 trade many years ago. You make it seem as if Curry isn't playing alongside Klay, btw, whos value as a shooter/defender while not needing to dominate the USG% or ball is severely underrated and that benefits a player like Curry who has the ball more and doesn't have to worry about another player changing up the pace.

You can't tell me, from what you saw from KD last season, that KD isn't capable of commanding an offense on a team like the Warriors. You're judging him from his lone Memphis days in which Memphis collapsed their defense on Durant and had Gasol (DPOY) in the paint. That same Memphis team was by far the best defensive team that season. Our second best scorer, Kevin Martin, was still an inexperienced player in the playoffs and was atrocious. Once Harden was traded, our team went downhill in terms of scouting, trades, and team creation.

I brought up LeBron wanting to face Curry over Durant as to show that as great as Curry is, LeBron realizes Durant is the player who comes closest in terms of who he can look up to as a rival. And Durant said the same thing about LeBron.

My entire judgement of KD has been in OKC and now GS yes, that is where he has played lol. Like I have said you just want to give him credit for things he hasn't proven while I am judging him for what he has done/proven.

Sure Klay is a solid scorer because Curry is the main playmaker, again they fit. KD was the scorer, Westy the creator in the same way. KD hasn't proven to be capable of being that main guy that a team runs through, defenses focus in on, send most attention towards regularly etc. which I am pointing out. Even when it was Westbrook you hint at KD not liking it but OKC and other teams did realize Westy was the one the team relied on to create we agree (saw pop try switching Kawhi on Westy for that reason despite KD obviously being a better player).

Some want to pretend we know he can do all this at an elite level because we see him taking advantage in his scoring roles but that doesn't make it necessarily true. To me you have to prove you are capable of something not just get credit for things because you jumped to a team loaded far above others so you don't have to show it (and he never stepped it up in OKC enough to prove that, blame Westy all u want but he failed at times too). It's just excuse after excuse despite continuously being in excellent situations next star level talent. I am not lying to you, just pointing out the reality of his career so far. If you love accolades and watching one team stomp the league without much resistance then sure he has been very impressive. I am judging him off of everything I have seen from him and it is that he loves to rely on others to create while playing his role and when he has needed to really step up and carry a heavy load against similar talent he hasn't really gotten it done (again not just that year and his drop off RS to PS being incredibly bad but even 2014 outplayed by westy vs SA arguably then the GS series when they blew the 3-1 and he left). It's everything combined that tells me so far in his career he hasn't proven to be that guy you say. He can definitely kick it up when he doesn't need to be the main offensive creator or defensive anchor but that isn't a role most get at an all time level (and is directly related to him running from said challenge).

I think you pointing out you lacked playmaking/creation after Harden left only helps my point haha. KD isn't the type to fill in that role even when it was needed and apparently it left a hole after Harden. Sure they can look at each other more as rivals as they will matchup more and go at it given positions/size. Iggy and Draymond matchup with him more too but I still think Curry is obviously better, again that just seemed irrelevant.

Overall to say either one is clearly better than the other is just off base imo and I am explaining why with the Curry/Durant stuff people seem to be ignoring in this thread. They are very different and before joining up it seemed like Curry was the better overall player and creator for his team while KD was the better scorer and more well rounded. The key difference is that on the same team it seems quite obvious who has maintained that creator/gravity player while together, who the focal point of other defenses has been, and who has benefited based on the answer to the first two. It was likely to happen from the start and many pointed out it likely would, now that it happened I am just arguing against that being a sign one clearly became better than the other or anything. He benefits much more than Curry in this situation and it shows in him going from clearly 3 and beyond before his jump to the clearly better player than Curry now (consensus wise).

mngopher35
09-27-2018, 01:18 AM
^Jury's still out on KD with that roster without Curry. I personally don't think they'd be very special offensively at all. Curry missed the last month of the season + 1st round and while they took care of the Kawhi-less Spurs of course, they sort of stumbled in there with a 4-6 record (not counting the games they both missed) with KD putting up 28 and 5 on a 53% eFG%. It's fine, but nothing great, and sub-par for him as a 57% eFG% guy on the same volume over the past 7 years (59% eFG alongside Curry and the Warriors the past 2 years). I can tell you from the eye test (and stats wise if we need to get into it) that the offense was absolutely nothing close to dominant (forget Warriors level dominant) without Curry and with KD at the helm. The pace was down, the efficiency was way down, and the blowouts were nowhere to be found. KD being a minus 3.1 on-court in that span fwiw.

Ya it is really tough because he just hasn't really been asked to be that guy and you have to think they may just not have been overly motivated etc. but it is an example (even if limited) of a drop off with him leading the way.

I just have trouble giving him such extreme benefit of the doubt and ignoring the context behind his play. Curry was unbelievable without KD to a level I wasn't seeing from KD without Curry. That makes it really tough for me to just assume KD changed moreso than his situation did.

ewing
09-27-2018, 08:45 AM
Why would I consider two overlapping skill sets.

Curry and Westbrook are creators for the team, it is best when the system is run through them. Next to each of these types of players you want an elite scorer so putting Curry in an elite scorer role of course would limit him because that is not his game. It was KD's but the obvious difference here is the lack of attention/matchups other teams can focus on him now and the space within the entire system (GS just has a better roster around for that, not on an individual here).

I have never seen KD as the main focal point and creator of an offense for an entire series except in 2013 against the Grizzlies. The last 3 games of that series he scored 24.3 ppg on 36% shooting and had 4.7 TOPG as they adjusted from a "lets let KD beat us and stop others to lets stop KD at expense of others". This almost never happens to KD, he can get toughest 1v1 matchups but teams almost never play just him because he is never that focal point/creator. The reality is everyone seems to want to pretend KD is capable of being this incredible leader/playmaker at an all time level when he hasn't really proven that at all yet in his career. I mean he went from #3 on that list I posted earlier to #1 in terms of creation/drop off from others when off court. He has always had the benefit of playing within his game, pick and choose best scoring opportunities and not needing to create for others as much. Now he just gets more space and the 1v1 can come off weaker defenders or with less help in the lane etc.

What in the world does Lebron or Curry being who Lebron wants to face? I assume you meant KD btw but sure 1v1 I think he would be more scared of the guy his size. Lebron is 1-0 against KD in the finals when he doesn't have Curry. That's as relevant as whatever point u think this is making.

GS has a point forward. The system is most reliant on Curry but i do not see him running an offense like Magic or being the creator for his team like Westbrook.

IKnowHoops
09-27-2018, 08:50 AM
Good list, nice to see Wade getting the credit he deserves for once. Absolute peak Wade is probably better than current Lebron though, Iíll hold off until we see LeBrons defense this year though.

Naw

IKnowHoops
09-27-2018, 09:01 AM
Man, I really wish Prime a Drob had great pieces around him like Curry. Then even when he played bad, you would still be able to see how much better the team was when heís on the floor.

tredigs
09-27-2018, 09:25 AM
Man, I really wish Prime a Drob had great pieces around him like Curry. Then even when he played bad, you would still be able to see how much better the team was when heís on the floor.

Concerning your comments for having DRob over KG career wise (and the Backpicks top 40 not), a quick look at his write up goes into the diversity/dynamic nature of KG's offensive and defensive games compared to the more straight-forward nature of D Rob on both sides of the ball (even defensively often being slow on rotations but sometimes bailing himself out with his length and athleticism). KG being the far superior passer/playmaker and capable of guarding both wings and forwards/centers at an elite level through his prime. DRob being the more efficient scorer as his clear leg up. Goes further into detail on how D Rob was often mitigated offensively against good D's in the post-season, etc, and how his regular season offensive box-score metrics tend to overrate his impact in that realm, and touches on the fact that his prime was fairly short relative to a lot of the upper echelon guys (came into the league polished and essentially in his prime). Basically a lot of stuff that has been brought up to you over the years, but in a fantastic write up. He still acknowledges his dominance and has him top 15 All Time, just a notch below Kobe. Falls in line for me very well personally.

Jamiecballer
09-27-2018, 09:25 AM
The benefit is still there no matter what it stems from. Sure it is different from others who normally rely on size/athletecism like we are used to but as the game has changed we see how big his impact can be even if much of it is from his incredible shot. Shaq at 6'1 wouldn't have been as impressive either but his size was incredible, he had questions defensively even if overstated imo, and absolutely dominated offensively and in overall impact. Very different players but what their impact/greatness stems from isn't nearly as important as the fact it is clearly there. They each had their own type of gravity/dominance given their special abilities even if very different.

I don't think Curry is as good as Shaq btw just using that idea. Curry/KD to me are probably pretty close on the list overall but if I could choose one to lead me these last chunk of years it would be Curry not KD given that skill he utilizes so well for himself/others. Focal point of the defenses because of it. With KD I need another elite player to be the creator imo which I just don't think is true with Curry. Their impacts are pretty close but I just think KD gets overrated some and Curry underrated some since they joined up due to how teams play the Warriors system (although I do think teams adjusted some last year (even mid series) so who knows what happens now with Cousins too lol but KD most definitely benefits off the initial/normal way teams used). Durant is not the leading playmaker/engine/gravity on offense or the best on defense for his team currently and in a role where he gets to maximize his own opportunities with space/help. Most other all time greats don't get this luxury in their careers yet so many appear to not even see it is happening.I don't disagree anything you said but that doesn't change my point. I'm not debating impact. I have more respect for talent and skill as a total package when I view how good players are historically. Gravity, as you call it, just has no place in a discussion of who is the best IMO.



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tredigs
09-27-2018, 09:28 AM
I don't disagree anything you said but that doesn't change my point. I'm not debating impact. I have more respect for talent and skill as a total package when I view how good players are historically. Gravity, as you call it, just has no place in a discussion of who is the best IMO.



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It's something that you may want to consider going forward if you're going to be evaluating team/NBA/real basketball impact and not 1v1, seeing as that is what the goal is.

Jamiecballer
09-27-2018, 09:31 AM
It's something that you may want to consider going forward if you're going to be evaluating team/NBA/real basketball impact and not 1v1, seeing as that is what the goal is.Well if I was building a team, I certainly would.

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ewing
09-27-2018, 09:31 AM
Concerning your comments for having DRob over KG career wise (and the Backpicks top 40 not), a quick look at his write up goes into the diversity/dynamic nature of KG's offensive and defensive games compared to the more straight-forward nature of D Rob on both sides of the ball (even defensively often being slow on rotations but sometimes bailing himself out with his length and athleticism). KG being the far superior passer/playmaker and capable of guarding both wings and forwards/centers at an elite level through his prime. DRob being the more efficient scorer as his clear leg up. Goes further into detail on how D Rob was often mitigated offensively against good D's in the post-season, etc, and how his regular season offensive box-score metrics tend to overrate his impact in that realm, and touches on the fact that his prime was fairly short relative to a lot of the upper echelon guys (came into the league polished and essentially in his prime). Basically a lot of stuff that has been brought up to you over the years, but in a fantastic write up. He still acknowledges his dominance and has him top 15 All Time, just a notch below Kobe. Falls in line for me very well personally.

KG could not defend wing or centers at an elite level though out his prime. He could defend wings at an elite level for a big which allowed for switch and recoveries etc. It was a great trait but he wasn't Bruce Bowen on the outside. he also needed a bruiser next to him until later in his career when the league had significantly down sized

tredigs
09-27-2018, 09:33 AM
Well if I was building a team, I certainly would.

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Not sure why that would be any different when evaluating a players importance within the context of a game only played as a team at the highest levels, but to each their own.

tredigs
09-27-2018, 09:37 AM
KG could not defend wing or centers at an elite level though out his prime. He could defend wings at an elite level for a big and he needed a bruiser next to him until later in his career.

Well, he could not defend the monster bigs at an elite level (really nobody could), but he held his ground against most and was both incredible at getting out on the wings and defending the post alike against the vast majority of bigs. Point being, a far more dynamic defender than D Rob. Similar to being more dynamic offensively than D Rob with his playmaking ability, 18 foot fadeaway and post moves alike. Again, D Rob's clear leg up being his efficiency in volume scoring, but that was a leg up that was muted a bit in the playoffs.

ewing
09-27-2018, 09:47 AM
Well, he could not defend the monster bigs at an elite level (really nobody could), but he held his ground against most and was both incredible at getting out on the wings and defending the post alike against the vast majority of bigs. Point being, a far more dynamic defender than D Rob. Similar to being more dynamic offensively than D Rob with his playmaking ability, 18 foot fadeaway and post moves alike. Again, D Rob's clear leg up being his efficiency in volume scoring, but that was a leg up that was muted a bit in the playoffs.

Just calling hyperbole when i see it. KG certainly was a more versatile defender then D Rob. D Rob covered a lot of ground in his own right though and was a DPOY recipient. Honestly neither guy did a great job on owning the paint in there respective eras b/c they were both a little more slight

WaDe03
09-27-2018, 10:42 AM
No he isn't, lol. LeBron is on another level in a way where less than a handful will ever reach.

Wade and LeBron were going at each otherís necks when they were both in their primes and played both sides of the ball, not crazy to think a peak Wade would be better than a LeBron who plays one side of the ball now.

WaDe03
09-27-2018, 10:43 AM
Naw

You convinced me.

IKnowHoops
09-27-2018, 10:47 AM
^Jury's still out on KD with that roster without Curry. I personally don't think they'd be very special offensively at all. Curry missed the last month of the season + 1st round and while they took care of the Kawhi-less Spurs of course, they sort of stumbled in there with a 4-6 record (not counting the games they both missed) with KD putting up 28 and 5 on a 53% eFG%. It's fine, but nothing great, and sub-par for him as a 57% eFG% guy on the same volume over the past 7 years (59% eFG alongside Curry and the Warriors the past 2 years). I can tell you from the eye test (and stats wise if we need to get into it) that the offense was absolutely nothing close to dominant (forget Warriors level dominant) without Curry and with KD at the helm. The pace was down, the efficiency was way down, and the blowouts were nowhere to be found. KD being a minus 3.1 on-court in that span fwiw.

Itís kind of like comparing Neo and Smith...who was more powerful...Smith...who won...Neo😂

IKnowHoops
09-27-2018, 11:00 AM
You convinced me.

OK, Wade could not of willed last years Cavs team to the finals. As an individual scorer and defensive buzzard he was...he never impacted the game like Bron can from sheer size alone. Trust me. I love Wade. He was better than Kobe no doubt. But Bron mentally will always be superior, physically superior, and his shot is superior now too. So I donít see anyone ever being on this level of Bron actually. No knock on Wade who I love.

WaDe03
09-27-2018, 11:12 AM
OK, Wade could not of willed last years Cavs team to the finals. As an individual scorer and defensive buzzard he was...he never impacted the game like Bron can from sheer size alone. Trust me. I love Wade. He was better than Kobe no doubt. But Bron mentally will always be superior, physically superior, and his shot is superior now too. So I donít see anyone ever being on this level of Bron actually. No knock on Wade who I love.

People act like this is the best LeBron has ever been though and thatís far from the truth. I wouldnít say wade couldnít have taken them to the finals, heís shown he can carry. Cavs didnít exactly beat anyone elite to get there.

GREATNESS ONE
09-27-2018, 11:41 AM
People act like this is the best LeBron has ever been though and thatís far from the truth. I wouldnít say wade couldnít have taken them to the finals, heís shown he can carry. Cavs didnít exactly beat anyone elite to get there.

Even Lebron says, itís the best heís ever been.... but carry on

WaDe03
09-27-2018, 11:50 AM
Even Lebron says, itís the best heís ever been.... but carry on

LeBron was he clear cut MVP and DPOY level defender in Miami while shooting 41% from 3 and 57% from the field lol, how soon they forget. Carry on kid.

GREATNESS ONE
09-27-2018, 12:04 PM
LeBron was he clear cut MVP and DPOY level defender in Miami while shooting 41% from 3 and 57% from the field lol, how soon they forget. Carry on kid.

So what Lebron thinks and feels doesnít matter because you said so? :laugh2: carry on Kid.

IKnowHoops
09-27-2018, 12:07 PM
People act like this is the best LeBron has ever been though and thatís far from the truth. I wouldnít say wade couldnít have taken them to the finals, heís shown he can carry. Cavs didnít exactly beat anyone elite to get there.

Not the most energetic or athletic but he is smarter and more complete an offensive player.

I thought Brons athletic Prime was his last year in Cleveland before Miami. Yet looked what Dallas did to him. Just clogged lane played off. You canít do that anymore. There are currently zero holes in his offensive game. He doesnít need to speed by you and jump over you because heís learned how to position his body and just easily muscle/slide by his defender every time without using much energy. His shot is cash now, so now you are helpless against him, nothing works...heís unstoppable right now.

IKnowHoops
09-27-2018, 12:13 PM
LeBron was he clear cut MVP and DPOY level defender in Miami while shooting 41% from 3 and 57% from the field lol, how soon they forget. Carry on kid.

The thing is, Lebron has never not been amazing. Heís definitely one player you canít just look at numbers and say ďthat was him at his bestĒ. Every year is a possible GOAT year.

To really know you have to follow his career from start to finish and note the subtle things he adds to his game to make him more efficient.

That game against GS they lost game 1, was the 2nd best game of his career IMO. Only behind that video game that took place in Detroit.

mngopher35
09-27-2018, 12:16 PM
GS has a point forward. The system is most reliant on Curry but i do not see him running an offense like Magic or being the creator for his team like Westbrook.

He doesn't need to play exactly like those guys though because his ability/style (specifically shooting) is different. Curry is the key cog in that system and things drop off/the team plays a little different without him for that reason. Sure having a point forward is helpful but the looks he get with an open lane off the pick and roll etc. aren't there to take advantage of at the same level without Curry and if he went somewhere else that aspect will follow him. Here is some stuff from an article in 2016:

"With Green and Thompson on the floor without Curry, the Warriors post-up nearly twice as often as they do with all three on the floor. The 28.2 posts per 100 possessions with Green and Thompson on the floor without Curry would rank second in the NBA.

Green turns into a post-up machine in those situations, averaging 14.2 post-ups per 100 possessions, which would have ranked 11th in the NBA. Thatís nearly twice as many post-ups per 100 possessions as he averaged overall in the regular season."

They instead play through post ups and use other methods to get him involved (and we see a big drop in efficiency due to this change (about 12 points per 100 possessions according to article. They don't run as often without Curry leading the charge either. I agree that his supporting players fit well but the offense/system is based off him it wouldn't drastically change in a different role because no matter where he goes he will be the focal point (note that is not the same with KD, he is not the offense but a cog next to the engine usually). Then from an article this year we can see stats with Curry on/off court as well for Green dropping from a 119 ortg with Curry on the court to 104 with him off. It's kinda like even with KD there we see that Green is a little bit reliant on Curry for his efficiency/great looks.

Curry is the creator for his team based off the spacing he provides and way defenses have to play him out past the 3 pt line regularly or trap him off action etc. which is just a different aspect than Magic/Westy have. It doesn't change that he is the clear focal point and creator/generator of opportunities even if in a different way.

IKnowHoops
09-27-2018, 12:18 PM
I think Brons playoff numbers will give a more accurate arc of his Prime. Anybody want to dig that up?

mngopher35
09-27-2018, 12:20 PM
I don't disagree anything you said but that doesn't change my point. I'm not debating impact. I have more respect for talent and skill as a total package when I view how good players are historically. Gravity, as you call it, just has no place in a discussion of who is the best IMO.



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Ahhh I care about team basketball and the NBA game (and his impact there) not an assessment of raw talent/skill/1v1 ability or anything so we just see the game much differently I guess. Can't just ignore how impactful some players are and how it affects the defenses etc. imo so we will just agree to disagree on what matters.

IKnowHoops
09-27-2018, 12:21 PM
I think Brons playoff numbers will give a more accurate arc of his Prime. Anybody want to dig that up?

I havenít looked at the numbers Wade, but year to year heís been getting better in the playoffs offensively by my eye test. A little blip year that first year back from Miami in Cleveland but otherwise I feel like he has improved basically every year a tiny bit

WaDe03
09-27-2018, 12:25 PM
So what Lebron thinks and feels doesnít matter because you said so? :laugh2: carry on Kid.

Carmelo still thinks heís elite little itty bitty guy, doesnít mean he is!

WaDe03
09-27-2018, 12:27 PM
Not the most energetic or athletic but he is smarter and more complete an offensive player.

I thought Brons athletic Prime was his last year in Cleveland before Miami. Yet looked what Dallas did to him. Just clogged lane played off. You canít do that anymore. There are currently zero holes in his offensive game. He doesnít need to speed by you and jump over you because heís learned how to position his body and just easily muscle/slide by his defender every time without using much energy. His shot is cash now, so now you are helpless against him, nothing works...heís unstoppable right now.

Youíre talking his first year in Miami Iím talking his 3rd where he **** at career best 41% from 3. He had no holes from anywhere on any side of the court, now he only plays 1 side and hes at the very best just as good on offense as he used to be.

IKnowHoops
09-27-2018, 12:46 PM
Youíre talking his first year in Miami Iím talking his 3rd where he **** at career best 41% from 3. He had no holes from anywhere on any side of the court, now he only plays 1 side and hes at the very best just as good on offense as he used to be.

No heís even better on offense now. His 3 pt percentage was due to him never taking a 3 that wasnít picture perfect. Heís better now offensively than heís ever been. His shot is more confident than ever. His footwork and body control is better than ever. Remember how he used to get called for charges...donít happen anymor because he figured that out. He has a euro step now. Heís better now. Bron was a very disciplined 3 pt shooter that year, but not a better shooter in general than he is now.

GREATNESS ONE
09-27-2018, 12:57 PM
Carmelo still thinks heís elite little itty bitty guy, doesnít mean he is!

Lmfao! Iím 6í3/6í4 220lb ;) back to work son.


Lebron has been getting better every year, just because you donít ďthinkĒ so doesnít mean it isnít true.


Heís a much better shooter, smarter and much more poised than heís ever been. The way he carried that trash to the Finals last year showed heís still the best player in the game by a good margin.

GREATNESS ONE
09-27-2018, 01:00 PM
No heís even better on offense now. His 3 pt percentage was due to him never taking a 3 that wasnít picture perfect. Heís better now offensively than heís ever been. His shot is more confident than ever. His footwork and body control is better than ever. Remember how he used to get called for charges...donít happen anymor because he figured that out. He has a euro step now. Heís better now. Bron was a very disciplined 3 pt shooter that year, but not a better shooter in general than he is now.

Thereís no point arguing with him. He would be striking Lebronís dick if washed up Wade was on the roster. I hope Dwayne Wade goes down with a season ending injury next year :laugh2:

valade16
09-27-2018, 01:04 PM
He has more room on GS but Curry would have a lot less room on OKC too. If Curry didnít need screens as much and could shoot over people like KD heíd be able to score in isolation on his own team better. Playing the 5 on GS more has a huge impact on KD having more room inside the arc too. You seem to be taking credit away from KD for scoring one on one and saying that Curry faces doubles but if Curry could get clean looks one on one like KD heíd have those shots too.

That's not what I'm doing at all. I'm not taking credit away from KD scoring one on one, he's amazing at it. I'm saying for a superstar who is great at one on one scoring opportunities, actually getting to see a lot of those opportunities makes it far easier on him to be able to do so.

I'm saying that if the defenses game plan was to trap and double KD to get the ball out of his hands I'd expect his numbers to not look as good and I'd certainly expect Curry's to increase if he were getting open looks as a result of doubling KD.

I don't think that Curry would have as easy a time with one on one's as KD because he's not as good a one on one player as KD, but I also don't think if the Cavs strategy was to get the ball out of KD's hands as soon as possible whenever he touched it that GS's plan would be for him to pass to Curry and have Curry go one on one.

valade16
09-27-2018, 01:11 PM
Lol. Of course they would try to stop Curry over Durant. There's nothing you can do to stop Durant, MJ, LeBron, Shaq, etc., so you go for the next best thing. Curry, contrary to what you may think, can be manipulated into making terrible passes when trapped and due to his size and frame, he can easily be bullied physically. This is simple stuff here. Refer to the ASG in 2018 when Durant and LeBron both trapped Curry. Why? Because it works. He's too small to see past defenders and he's not physical enough to stay in his position. Really, I am confused as to what you think the Cavs could have done to stop Durant. Who, what, why, where, and how do you think that would have happened? These are almost laughable arguments for Curry. Re-read the question: Durant is higher All-Time. As MBT stated, your emotional hatred and feelings for his decision shouldn't determine his ranking from a basketball perspective. Peak prime is arguable but even if the edge goes to Curry, there is an easy argument that Curry had a top five NBA season ever that would put him above many greats such as Magic. Are you putting Curry over Magic or Bird? No you are not. Let's get back to the real question. And the real answer is, Durant has simply achieved more. His decision to join the Warriors doesn't influence the impact he's had on the Warriors. Separate your feelings from logic, please.

Have you even re-read the question? Because it's 2 questions:

Who is currently greater all-time? And who will finish their careers higher ranked?

You guys are saying there's 0 argument that Curry could be ranked as high or could ever be ranked as high. Please actually read the things you talk about, please.

ewing
09-27-2018, 01:13 PM
He doesn't need to play exactly like those guys though because his ability/style (specifically shooting) is different. Curry is the key cog in that system and things drop off/the team plays a little different without him for that reason. Sure having a point forward is helpful but the looks he get with an open lane off the pick and roll etc. aren't there to take advantage of at the same level without Curry and if he went somewhere else that aspect will follow him. Here is some stuff from an article in 2016:

"With Green and Thompson on the floor without Curry, the Warriors post-up nearly twice as often as they do with all three on the floor. The 28.2 posts per 100 possessions with Green and Thompson on the floor without Curry would rank second in the NBA.

Green turns into a post-up machine in those situations, averaging 14.2 post-ups per 100 possessions, which would have ranked 11th in the NBA. Thatís nearly twice as many post-ups per 100 possessions as he averaged overall in the regular season."

They instead play through post ups and use other methods to get him involved (and we see a big drop in efficiency due to this change (about 12 points per 100 possessions according to article. They don't run as often without Curry leading the charge either. I agree that his supporting players fit well but the offense/system is based off him it wouldn't drastically change in a different role because no matter where he goes he will be the focal point (note that is not the same with KD, he is not the offense but a cog next to the engine usually). Then from an article this year we can see stats with Curry on/off court as well for Green dropping from a 119 ortg with Curry on the court to 104 with him off. It's kinda like even with KD there we see that Green is a little bit reliant on Curry for his efficiency/great looks.

Curry is the creator for his team based off the spacing he provides and way defenses have to play him out past the 3 pt line regularly or trap him off action etc. which is just a different aspect than Magic/Westy have. It doesn't change that he is the clear focal point and creator/generator of opportunities even if in a different way.

Thanks for the reply. I certainly agree that Curry the most important cog. I do think itís a little different then Magic or Westy in his support player contribute more to the play making but he is clearly the straw that stirs the drink and the stats that back it up are pretty eye opening


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WaDe03
09-27-2018, 01:16 PM
Thereís no point arguing with him. He would be striking Lebronís dick if washed up Wade was on the roster. I hope Dwayne Wade goes down with a season ending injury next year :laugh2:

Smh your last part of your post is ****ed up, especially with it being his last year. Karma will come back on you kid. LeBron is my 2nd favorite player ever. You take any kind of criticism as meaning I hate whoever the player is, itís not my fault youíre a weenie! Itís like me saying Wade isnít as good as he was so now I obviously hate the guy. Would I stroke LeBrons dick? It depends but I wouldnít be scared of it.

WaDe03
09-27-2018, 01:17 PM
No heís even better on offense now. His 3 pt percentage was due to him never taking a 3 that wasnít picture perfect. Heís better now offensively than heís ever been. His shot is more confident than ever. His footwork and body control is better than ever. Remember how he used to get called for charges...donít happen anymor because he figured that out. He has a euro step now. Heís better now. Bron was a very disciplined 3 pt shooter that year, but not a better shooter in general than he is now.

Ok letís say heís slightly better offensively because IF he is (he isnít) then itís a very small margin. His defense in 12-13 is light years ahead of what it currently is.