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nastynice
10-02-2018, 01:17 PM
let me put it this way-I can't stand Kevin Durant. I think what he did was spineless, and damn right I lead this argument with emotions. Unless he is forced to carry a team to a title, nothing he can do will change his stature, with me. But I am only me. Curry, never had top 10 potential to me. So him dropping from at best 13-14, down to 20-25, is whatever to me. But, Curry DID win a title and 2 MVP's as the best player on the best team in 2 decades prior to nancy showing up. So his legacy is safer to me personally.

We can compare LeBron/Durant all day. Their actions similarity starts and stops with they both left in FA. Why, and what happened next, are 2 absolutely different things.

Yup, one got 2 of 4,one got 2 of 2. Ones supporting cast fell off the earth, one didn't. So basically, kd was much smarter and better at doing what lebron tried.

He's the goat team hopper. LeBron is the 2nd goat.

But hop #4 might propel him past kd, let's see..

Saddletramp
10-02-2018, 01:44 PM
I don't understand what makes a cp3less rockets a great team, more like the dubs played beneath themselves and played with just enough effort to crush a depleted team with a single star who himself struggles in the playoffs. they almost lost game 1 to the ****** Cavs they're so lackadaisical. Must be nice to sleep walk to a dynasty

I was pointing out how Tre was saying the Rockets were an incredible team again after saying they’d be beat in 5 with a healthy Iguadala in the “no injuries” thread. He changes his stance depending on how much **** he wants to talk. Classy stuff.

Hawkeye15
10-02-2018, 01:49 PM
I think it's pretty safe to say he was needed.

Like you said, in theory he should get no credit, but in reality he has repeatedly **** on the best players in the playoffs, including one player who many argue is the best ever, over and over again. Not only **** in that player, but you can visibly see him wanting nothing to do with kd, giving him up on every switch opportunity all game, lmao.

but we know for a fact he wasn't needed. Like, it's a fact.

nastynice
10-02-2018, 01:56 PM
but we know for a fact he wasn't needed. Like, it's a fact.

No its not. Most people thought kd was the reason warriors handled the cavs. Without kd, rockets coulda beat us too.

valade16
10-02-2018, 02:07 PM
No its not. Most people thought kd was the reason warriors handled the cavs. Without kd, rockets coulda beat us too.

I think what he's saying is we know for a fact KD wasn't needed for GS to win a championship, because they'd already won a championship before him.

As to whether they would have won the last 2 championships without him, everyone's entitled to their opinions. Mine is I highly doubt the Warriors without KD would have ended their run with only 1 championship. I think it's very likely they'd have won at least 1 more if not more than that.

Hawkeye15
10-02-2018, 02:18 PM
No its not. Most people thought kd was the reason warriors handled the cavs. Without kd, rockets coulda beat us too.

The Golden State Warriors never needed Kevin Durant to win a title. He is a luxury they never needed to win. He turned them from an all time team, to the greatest team ever. No credit needs to be given to him.

We know, for a fact, GS never needed Durant. They already proved this..

nastynice
10-02-2018, 02:21 PM
I think what he's saying is we know for a fact KD wasn't needed for GS to win a championship, because they'd already won a championship before him.

As to whether they would have won the last 2 championships without him, everyone's entitled to their opinions. Mine is I highly doubt the Warriors without KD would have ended their run with only 1 championship. I think it's very likely they'd have won at least 1 more if not more than that.

We didn't need kd in 2015, sure, who's gonna argue against that

nastynice
10-02-2018, 02:22 PM
The Golden State Warriors never needed Kevin Durant to win a title. He is a luxury they never needed to win. He turned them from an all time team, to the greatest team ever. No credit needs to be given to him.

We know, for a fact, GS never needed Durant. They already proved this..

Bro, you really sleeping on what the rockets actually were last season..

mngopher35
10-02-2018, 02:48 PM
Bro, you really sleeping on what the rockets actually were last season..

Some guys always just prop up teams to make it seem like a challenge though lol, remember the injured jazz in 2016.

Rockets are a very good team but nothing special at an all time level or anything. Warriors played down to their opponent making the series closer than it needed to be but you had the best 2 players and 4 of the top 6 in the series. The teams are closer talent wise without KD on GS than with him there

mightybosstone
10-02-2018, 02:48 PM
How is this thread at over 500 posts already? There aren't 500 different ways to say "Durant."

valade16
10-02-2018, 02:52 PM
How is this thread at over 500 posts already? There aren't 500 different ways to say "Durant."

Did you see the post where current lists have Curry over Durant?

mightybosstone
10-02-2018, 02:53 PM
Did you see the post where current lists have Curry over Durant?

Nah. I stopped caring about this over a week ago. I just wanted to pop my head back in to troll you and all the Warriors fans. :p

FlashBolt
10-02-2018, 02:55 PM
Daily reminder that Durant is ahead of Curry and will be unless Curry starts winning as the best player on his own team.

valade16
10-02-2018, 03:01 PM
Nah. I stopped caring about this over a week ago. I just wanted to pop my head back in to troll you and all the Warriors fans. :p

Appreciate the honesty! I wish all the other trolls that say Durant would also stop caring :p

Hawkeye15
10-02-2018, 03:08 PM
Daily reminder that Durant is ahead of Curry and will be unless Curry starts winning as the best player on his own team.

he already did

Hawkeye15
10-02-2018, 03:09 PM
Bro, you really sleeping on what the rockets actually were last season..

you sleeping on how much effort your squad was giving. Sleepwalking your way to a title isn't sexy, but it works

Hawkeye15
10-02-2018, 03:11 PM
Some guys always just prop up teams to make it seem like a challenge though lol, remember the injured jazz in 2016.

Rockets are a very good team but nothing special at an all time level or anything. Warriors played down to their opponent making the series closer than it needed to be but you had the best 2 players and 4 of the top 6 in the series. The teams are closer talent wise without KD on GS than with him there

it's as if GS fans are trying to build drama in their own dominance.

GS fans, just sit back and enjoy the fact your team is the most dominant post merger NBA team ever. No need to defend minute details when none of it matters. Enjoy the run, no matter how unfair or ridiculous others portray it...

ewing
10-02-2018, 03:20 PM
Both guys are kind of guys that would tell on you if you were mean to them in class

valade16
10-02-2018, 03:22 PM
Both guys are kind of guys that would tell on you if you were mean to them in class

LeBron would find two other friends to start being mean to you back.

KD would join you and start being mean to LeBron.

mngopher35
10-02-2018, 03:26 PM
it's as if GS fans are trying to build drama in their own dominance.

GS fans, just sit back and enjoy the fact your team is the most dominant post merger NBA team ever. No need to defend minute details when none of it matters. Enjoy the run, no matter how unfair or ridiculous others portray it...

I mean it depends on what they want to accomplish within a thread. Sometimes they are the greatest team ever and these individuals are clearly headed to top 15 level, Draymond DPOY, Klay an all star (best SG thread a few years ago even) and so on. However when they play a team in the playoffs make no doubt they will have great challenges and their wins will be significant despite no one really matching up with them realistically.

I agree just enjoy the run as fans, most would kill for it (like us)

tredigs
10-02-2018, 05:39 PM
Some guys always just prop up teams to make it seem like a challenge though lol, remember the injured jazz in 2016.

Rockets are a very good team but nothing special at an all time level or anything. Warriors played down to their opponent making the series closer than it needed to be but you had the best 2 players and 4 of the top 6 in the series. The teams are closer talent wise without KD on GS than with him there



it's as if GS fans are trying to build drama in their own dominance.

GS fans, just sit back and enjoy the fact your team is the most dominant post merger NBA team ever. No need to defend minute details when none of it matters. Enjoy the run, no matter how unfair or ridiculous others portray it...
Yeah, unfortunately if you remove the hate-goggles, the reality is that yes in fact, the Rockets were an All-Time great team and there's nothing remotely debatable about that. 13th ranked SRS in history and the same offensive rating (top 3 All Time until players sat), and that is with Harden and CP missing a large combined chunk of the season (30+ games). They went 50-5 with Harden/CP/Capela on the court (that's a 91% win% for those of you playing at home, which is equivalent to a 75 win season).

I'm enjoying the run plenty, and it's all the sweeter to see it via comebacks against one of the most legendary offenses in history in having to win 2 of 3 on the road.

Saddletramp
10-02-2018, 06:07 PM
^^^^Without CP3, it wasn’t legendary. But you seem to have a problem employing context so this statement is no surprise.



LeBron would find two other friends to start being mean to you back.

KD would join you and start being mean to LeBron.

Nah, KD only joins the numbers. He’d join up to Team Lebron.

mngopher35
10-02-2018, 06:34 PM
Yeah, unfortunately if you remove the hate-goggles, the reality is that yes in fact, the Rockets were an All-Time great team and there's nothing remotely debatable about that. 13th ranked SRS in history and the same offensive rating (top 3 All Time until players sat), and that is with Harden and CP missing a large combined chunk of the season (30+ games). They went 50-5 with Harden/CP/Capela on the court (that's a 91% win% for those of you playing at home, which is equivalent to a 75 win season).

I'm enjoying the run plenty, and it's all the sweeter to see it via comebacks against one of the most legendary offenses in history in having to win 2 of 3 on the road.

I am not sure the exact # you are referencing but if it's team SRS from bball reference, Houston SRS last year was 27th all time. The 16 Warriors pre Durant were top 10. Cleveland in 09 is ranked 16th ahead of Houston. I definitely agree they played fantastic together in the RS but they still don't match up.

I am talking about how good/talented each team is compared to competition. That wasn't a very close series at all in that sense but GS just played down a bit and had the Iggy injury. Like I said the rockets were very good but they are a normal contender most years that was still clearly outmatched by GS talent wise but was playing very lackadaisical (and choked that 4th). GS isn't a normal contender, even before KD they were all time level according to SRS.

FlashBolt
10-02-2018, 06:35 PM
he already did

Previously, yeah, but that previous performance was underwhelming so for the present and future, he'd simply have to be the best player and continue to win. Durant continuing to win and pushing Curry to the sideline as his Robin isn't going to move Curry past Durant. We will disagree on this but simply put, I don't think Curry has had a long enough of a career to push KD aside. KD will likely be the top five NBA scorer and whether we like it or not, will be in the discussion for top ten. I think Broussard said it right: The masses will eventually forget down the line. Us hardcore fans won't but at the same time, Curry is also benefitting from this in a way where he's winning rings easily so it isn't a one-way street.

Hawkeye15
10-02-2018, 07:24 PM
Yeah, unfortunately if you remove the hate-goggles, the reality is that yes in fact, the Rockets were an All-Time great team and there's nothing remotely debatable about that. 13th ranked SRS in history and the same offensive rating (top 3 All Time until players sat), and that is with Harden and CP missing a large combined chunk of the season (30+ games). They went 50-5 with Harden/CP/Capela on the court (that's a 91% win% for those of you playing at home, which is equivalent to a 75 win season).

I'm enjoying the run plenty, and it's all the sweeter to see it via comebacks against one of the most legendary offenses in history in having to win 2 of 3 on the road.

and they are led by 2 playoff failures, on a team built to try and play GS, on a team with something to prove. The Warriors talent level is far better, and they are simply a team that doesn't play to their potential until pushed. And when they do, it's over.

Stop trying to create a dramatic season dude, the Warriors had the last 2 chips wrapped up before the season started, and unless injuries derail them, they have it locked up again this year. That or they epically underperform and lose to a far less talented team, whichever one that is this year..

Hawkeye15
10-02-2018, 07:26 PM
Previously, yeah, but that previous performance was underwhelming so for the present and future, he'd simply have to be the best player and continue to win. Durant continuing to win and pushing Curry to the sideline as his Robin isn't going to move Curry past Durant. We will disagree on this but simply put, I don't think Curry has had a long enough of a career to push KD aside. KD will likely be the top five NBA scorer and whether we like it or not, will be in the discussion for top ten. I think Broussard said it right: The masses will eventually forget down the line. Us hardcore fans won't but at the same time, Curry is also benefitting from this in a way where he's winning rings easily so it isn't a one-way street.

of course the masses will let it go, most fans don't care enough about sports to hold a grudge for 30 years.

But I won't let it go, instead clinging on until my last breath

"**** you Durant

valade16
10-02-2018, 07:31 PM
of course the masses will let it go, most fans don't care enough about sports to hold a grudge for 30 years.

But I won't let it go, instead clinging on until my last breath

**** you Durant

The masses aren't exactly unanimous on this one either way. Half the lists I found had KD higher and half had Curry higher. Essentially, it's a toss-up.

nastynice
10-02-2018, 08:35 PM
you sleeping on how much effort your squad was giving. Sleepwalking your way to a title isn't sexy, but it works

Has nothing to do with being sexy, earlier someone said we didn't need kd to win titles..

nastynice
10-02-2018, 08:35 PM
it's as if GS fans are trying to build drama in their own dominance.

GS fans, just sit back and enjoy the fact your team is the most dominant post merger NBA team ever. No need to defend minute details when none of it matters. Enjoy the run, no matter how unfair or ridiculous others portray it...

Oh God, not this again! lol

nastynice
10-02-2018, 08:39 PM
I am not sure the exact # you are referencing but if it's team SRS from bball reference, Houston SRS last year was 27th all time. The 16 Warriors pre Durant were top 10. Cleveland in 09 is ranked 16th ahead of Houston. I definitely agree they played fantastic together in the RS but they still don't match up.

I am talking about how good/talented each team is compared to competition. That wasn't a very close series at all in that sense but GS just played down a bit and had the Iggy injury. Like I said the rockets were very good but they are a normal contender most years that was still clearly outmatched by GS talent wise but was playing very lackadaisical (and choked that 4th). GS isn't a normal contender, even before KD they were all time level according to SRS.

What's a normal contender?

Take out the big 3 heat and KD warriors, these rockets are probably favored to win the chip every year.

I don't even have a dog in this fight, I don't give a crap what people think of our opponents, we're better regardless, but just saying, how are people not seeing this?

Hawkeye15
10-02-2018, 09:55 PM
Has nothing to do with being sexy, earlier someone said we didn't need kd to win titles..

that was me. and they didn't need KD. Again, we know this for a fact.

mngopher35
10-02-2018, 10:57 PM
What's a normal contender?

Take out the big 3 heat and KD warriors, these rockets are probably favored to win the chip every year.

I don't even have a dog in this fight, I don't give a crap what people think of our opponents, we're better regardless, but just saying, how are people not seeing this?

If they played against Lebron/Kyrie/Love team in 16 that is far more comparable than Curry/KD/Green/Klay talent wise. I just mean they would normally be a team with one of top odds to win sure but that doesn't mean they are remotely close to GS still just like that team wasn't nor would other champs.

We are talking Harden/CP3/Capela lol this isn't some insane level unseen before. It is pretty common for top/high level teams to be this good every single year. This GS team was winning the title, top 10 SRS etc. before KD even joined. They were already close to this THEN added KD.

Rondo/Ray/Pierce/KG, Kobe/Gasol/Bynum/Artest, Lebron/Wade/Bosh, Parker/Manu/Kawhi/Duncan, Westy/Harden/KD/Ibaka, Curry/Green/Klay etc etc. just pick high level teams recently most won and lost in finals.

Edit: I think I confused you and Tre for a sec haha

FlashBolt
10-02-2018, 11:24 PM
If they played against Lebron/Kyrie/Love team in 16 that is far more comparable than Curry/KD/Green/Klay talent wise. I just mean they would normally be a team with one of top odds to win sure but that doesn't mean they are remotely close to GS still just like that team wasn't nor would other champs.

We are talking Harden/CP3/Capela lol this isn't some insane level unseen before. It is pretty common for top/high level teams to be this good every single year. This GS team was winning the title, top 10 SRS etc. before KD even joined. They were already close to this THEN added KD.

Rondo/Ray/Pierce/KG, Kobe/Gasol/Bynum/Artest, Lebron/Wade/Bosh, Parker/Manu/Kawhi/Duncan, Westy/Harden/KD/Ibaka, Curry/Green/Klay etc etc. just pick high level teams recently most won and lost in finals.

Edit: I think I confused you and Tre for a sec haha

Outside of the Spurs, none of the guys you listed were at their prime when they played together. This GSW team is at their physical and basketball prime.

Boston - Rondo was still young and Pierce/Ray/KG were clearly past their prime but still very good players.
Lakers - Bynum/Artest weren't much if we're talking about at their best.
Heat - There will be backlash from Wade fans but we can mostly agree Wade was heading downhill fast. Far different than what many had expected in terms of the Big Three. I'm not sure why we ever called them that after year 1. Plenty of teams caught up and formed their own competent squad. CP3+Blake+DeAndre.. it's like imagine you switched CP3 with LeBron and had LeBron+Blake+DeAndre.
Spurs - This is the closest one to having their prime align with each other. We can take Kawhi out but for much of the Spurs titles, their best players were at their peak.
OKC - None of the players were at their prime.

This isn't a Warriors team where players are teaming up at age 30. It's a team that is growing at the ripe age of their best years in basketball. It's amazing how well they have managed the franchise because we have never seen anything like this where four players are top 15, two of which are top 5, and all are at their prime. Simply amazing.

mngopher35
10-02-2018, 11:56 PM
Outside of the Spurs, none of the guys you listed were at their prime when they played together. This GSW team is at their physical and basketball prime.

Boston - Rondo was still young and Pierce/Ray/KG were clearly past their prime but still very good players.
Lakers - Bynum/Artest weren't much if we're talking about at their best.
Heat - There will be backlash from Wade fans but we can mostly agree Wade was heading downhill fast. Far different than what many had expected in terms of the Big Three. I'm not sure why we ever called them that after year 1. Plenty of teams caught up and formed their own competent squad. CP3+Blake+DeAndre.. it's like imagine you switched CP3 with LeBron and had LeBron+Blake+DeAndre.
Spurs - This is the closest one to having their prime align with each other. We can take Kawhi out but for much of the Spurs titles, their best players were at their peak.
OKC - None of the players were at their prime.

This isn't a Warriors team where players are teaming up at age 30. It's a team that is growing at the ripe age of their best years in basketball. It's amazing how well they have managed the franchise because we have never seen anything like this where four players are top 15, two of which are top 5, and all are at their prime. Simply amazing.

Yup I get that.

Those teams came after I mentioned Harden/CP3/Capela. It is to show that year after year recently we have had great teams fighting for titles (again most of them won and lost) with a ton of talent. That trio just isn't special at an all time level like I was saying and those teams help show it with how loaded they are in comparison. Anyone trying to talk themselves into that Rockets team as some all time great team is hyping them up to make it seem like someone is close to GS.

nastynice
10-03-2018, 12:17 AM
If they played against Lebron/Kyrie/Love team in 16 that is far more comparable than Curry/KD/Green/Klay talent wise. I just mean they would normally be a team with one of top odds to win sure but that doesn't mean they are remotely close to GS still just like that team wasn't nor would other champs.

We are talking Harden/CP3/Capela lol this isn't some insane level unseen before. It is pretty common for top/high level teams to be this good every single year. This GS team was winning the title, top 10 SRS etc. before KD even joined. They were already close to this THEN added KD.

Rondo/Ray/Pierce/KG, Kobe/Gasol/Bynum/Artest, Lebron/Wade/Bosh, Parker/Manu/Kawhi/Duncan, Westy/Harden/KD/Ibaka, Curry/Green/Klay etc etc. just pick high level teams recently most won and lost in finals.

Edit: I think I confused you and Tre for a sec haha

OK, so how is Cleveland a normal contender? Outside this past year they been pretty much locked to make the finals, why no cry about that too? Same with heat. Rockets are on that level, do you disagree.

Warriors are another level, no doubt. I'm not saying this to downplay what the Warriors are, but rockets would be favorites a lot of years

nastynice
10-03-2018, 12:18 AM
that was me. and they didn't need KD. Again, we know this for a fact.

For 15 yes, we know this. For 17 and 18 no we do not know this

mngopher35
10-03-2018, 12:28 AM
OK, so how is Cleveland a normal contender? Outside this past year they been pretty much locked to make the finals, why no cry about that too? Same with heat. Rockets are on that level, do you disagree.

Warriors are another level, no doubt. I'm not saying this to downplay what the Warriors are, but rockets would be favorites a lot of years

I think I would take Lebron team over Rockets but I do agree they would be mixed right in with contenders those years is what I was saying. Heat/OKC, sure, Heat/SA sure, Boston Lakers sure, GS/Cle sure. They would simply be seen as contenders with these finals matchups each year, they potentially could have made it but I don't think they are some clear favorites over these teams, you do? I definitely take Lebron+Wade (and even Kyrie) over Harden+CP3 so I would love an explanation here. Westbrook/KD/Adams is a non finals trio I see similar to Houstons tbh from 2016.

It isn't some special all time great team, that was what I posted and Tre responded to. Very good sure. Contender level most years sure (in nba that means top 1-4ish teams usually). We are talking about one of these teams that won a title and considered at the top ADDING KD though. At some point you guys just have to admit there is a clear and obvious gap in the league right now. Rockets are a good team but they are not near that all time top team level, heck he tried propping up their SRS which is clearly lower than pre durant GS like I have pointed out. This team isn't even necessarily better than either of the finals teams year in and year out recently let alone some standout over all other greats lol.

Saddletramp
10-03-2018, 12:39 AM
Oh God, not this again! lol

That’s what we say. A lot.

nastynice
10-03-2018, 04:56 AM
I think I would take Lebron team over Rockets but I do agree they would be mixed right in with contenders those years is what I was saying. Heat/OKC, sure, Heat/SA sure, Boston Lakers sure, GS/Cle sure. They would simply be seen as contenders with these finals matchups each year, they potentially could have made it but I don't think they are some clear favorites over these teams, you do? I definitely take Lebron+Wade (and even Kyrie) over Harden+CP3 so I would love an explanation here. Westbrook/KD/Adams is a non finals trio I see similar to Houstons tbh from 2016.

It isn't some special all time great team, that was what I posted and Tre responded to. Very good sure. Contender level most years sure (in nba that means top 1-4ish teams usually). We are talking about one of these teams that won a title and considered at the top ADDING KD though. At some point you guys just have to admit there is a clear and obvious gap in the league right now. Rockets are a good team but they are not near that all time top team level, heck he tried propping up their SRS which is clearly lower than pre durant GS like I have pointed out. This team isn't even necessarily better than either of the finals teams year in and year out recently let alone some standout over all other greats lol.

I'm saying they are not a normal contender, they'd be a favorite along with any lebron team. Golden state is on a diff level, yes.

More-Than-Most
10-03-2018, 05:00 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zd62MxKXp8


curry vs shumpert to end the series... he wanted no part of finally being the guy in the moment... lebron did what he did like there was no tomorrow because there wasnt a tomorrow..... this right here is why curry begged for daddy durant and this right here is why curry will never be better than Durant. I hate Durant but Durant takes shumbert to the hole and scores


You couldnt have played worse if you are curry in a game 7 in your own court... the dude went what like 6-19 while getting exposed on defense and giving up the ball to ****ing iggy on top of getting owned by Kyrie for the go ahead 3 only to be Defensed up BY kevin ****ing love???? He choked so hardcore and went out and begged KD and somehow KD is worse compared to a dude who couldnt beat a cavs team up 3-1 with 2 of the 3 final games at home? come on guys/

mngopher35
10-03-2018, 05:22 AM
I'm saying they are not a normal contender, they'd be a favorite along with any lebron team. Golden state is on a diff level, yes.

Lebron/Wade/Bosh vs Harden/CP3/Capela

Yup I bet those teams are seen exactly the same by people, no favorite there...

I already stated normal contender to me is a bit different than like any team that could potentially win and moreso the top favorites to each year. Rockets fit as a team not likely at the very top but in that upper mix.

"Rockets are a very good team but nothing special at an all time level or anything". Thats what was quoted of me saying earlier about the rockets lol. I am just pointing out they are absolutely not special at an all time level (Warriors are), they are just a yearly contender type team. Almost any non GS fan can agree.

Hawkeye15
10-03-2018, 09:28 AM
Lebron/Wade/Bosh vs Harden/CP3/Capela

Yup I bet those teams are seen exactly the same by people, no favorite there...

I already stated normal contender to me is a bit different than like any team that could potentially win and moreso the top favorites to each year. Rockets fit as a team not likely at the very top but in that upper mix.

"Rockets are a very good team but nothing special at an all time level or anything". Thats what was quoted of me saying earlier about the rockets lol. I am just pointing out they are absolutely not special at an all time level (Warriors are), they are just a yearly contender type team. Almost any non GS fan can agree.

The Rockets rep is coming from the normal short term memory (as you pointed out each year we see these teams), and as I, and many others pointed out, Harden/CP3 are chronic chokers, so in reality nobody really took them seriously as TRUE contenders.

And yes, GS is on another level. They are the only team that can beat them(selves). The moment GS realizes they are sleepwalking, they stomp on their opponent. We have seen this the last 2 years already, I am not sure what to tell people who don't understand it.

People are creating dramatic scenarios in an otherwise very boring NBA. I get viewership is up, but that tells me nothing, considering humans are generally stupid with short attention spans. The access to it is why it's up btw..

GS won the last 2 titles when Durant signed. Not last June, or the prior June. Those were just the award ceremonies. They won this year already. It's just the way it is guys. You can think Durant for making an all time contender into the greatest team ever seen.

Hawkeye15
10-03-2018, 09:30 AM
Outside of the Spurs, none of the guys you listed were at their prime when they played together. This GSW team is at their physical and basketball prime.

Boston - Rondo was still young and Pierce/Ray/KG were clearly past their prime but still very good players.
Lakers - Bynum/Artest weren't much if we're talking about at their best.
Heat - There will be backlash from Wade fans but we can mostly agree Wade was heading downhill fast. Far different than what many had expected in terms of the Big Three. I'm not sure why we ever called them that after year 1. Plenty of teams caught up and formed their own competent squad. CP3+Blake+DeAndre.. it's like imagine you switched CP3 with LeBron and had LeBron+Blake+DeAndre.
Spurs - This is the closest one to having their prime align with each other. We can take Kawhi out but for much of the Spurs titles, their best players were at their peak.
OKC - None of the players were at their prime.

This isn't a Warriors team where players are teaming up at age 30. It's a team that is growing at the ripe age of their best years in basketball. It's amazing how well they have managed the franchise because we have never seen anything like this where four players are top 15, two of which are top 5, and all are at their prime. Simply amazing.

I argued with vinylman on this subject. He brought up the early 80's Lakers as another team loaded with names. But the combination of what GS has, and the fact that they are ALL IN THEIR PEAKS, has never been seen before. Never, has a team had so much top tier talent in their peaks at the same time. Plenty of teams have had young/peak/old great names. Like I get Bob McAdoo was amazing in his early 20's, but by his Laker days, he don't count as an all timer. Even Kareem, as good as he was on the Lakers, wasn't the Bucks Kareem anymore.

These Warriors have 4 HOF'ers in their peaks, all together. It's ridiculous. When all is said and done, and you list the MVP's, Finals MVP's, All NBA teams, All Defensive teams, etc, GSs rosters these last few years will just be viewed as unreal. If not already.

valade16
10-03-2018, 11:38 AM
I remember on here when the argument was whether the Warriors were better than the 96 Chicago Bulls... then they added KD. This Warriors team is the most talented team ever assembled and the best team ever. The Rockets, while a good to great team historically, are simply not on their level.

Redrum187
10-03-2018, 01:11 PM
It's weird being in the middle of the LeBron/Warriors/KD debate because both sides bring up context for different situations and both sides then tell each other to stop using excuses and neither side realizes they're both doing the same thing lol.

lol I feel you on that. I feel the same way about American politics with Republicans and Democrats.

Redrum187
10-03-2018, 01:23 PM
How is this thread at over 500 posts already? There aren't 500 different ways to say "Durant."

Want to bet?

1.) P****
2.) Vagina
3.) c**t
....

I could continue...

nastynice
10-03-2018, 01:36 PM
Lebron/Wade/Bosh vs Harden/CP3/Capela

Yup I bet those teams are seen exactly the same by people, no favorite there...

I already stated normal contender to me is a bit different than like any team that could potentially win and moreso the top favorites to each year. Rockets fit as a team not likely at the very top but in that upper mix.

"Rockets are a very good team but nothing special at an all time level or anything". Thats what was quoted of me saying earlier about the rockets lol. I am just pointing out they are absolutely not special at an all time level (Warriors are), they are just a yearly contender type team. Almost any non GS fan can agree.

Haha, awesome, and let me compare these warriors to the jordan bulls and showtime Lakers and act like that makes them normal too :)

You're comparing these rockets to arguably the most talented top 3 the league has ever had. Thanks for backing up my point

nastynice
10-03-2018, 01:45 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zd62MxKXp8


curry vs shumpert to end the series... he wanted no part of finally being the guy in the moment... lebron did what he did like there was no tomorrow because there wasnt a tomorrow..... this right here is why curry begged for daddy durant and this right here is why curry will never be better than Durant. I hate Durant but Durant takes shumbert to the hole and scores


You couldnt have played worse if you are curry in a game 7 in your own court... the dude went what like 6-19 while getting exposed on defense and giving up the ball to ****ing iggy on top of getting owned by Kyrie for the go ahead 3 only to be Defensed up BY kevin ****ing love???? He choked so hardcore and went out and begged KD and somehow KD is worse compared to a dude who couldnt beat a cavs team up 3-1 with 2 of the 3 final games at home? come on guys/

Oh man, the block!

Remember this game where the ball handler cried for daddy too?

https://youtu.be/qmDsgGKHBEo

And this?

https://youtu.be/j0cp_0sE8ew

It's ok, daddy magic came thru. You should be used to it too, anytime Simmons is more than 4 ft from the basket I see him begging for daddy too. You ever seen it? Go back and watch them play Boston, you'll see it, lol ;)

mngopher35
10-03-2018, 01:47 PM
Haha, awesome, and let me compare these warriors to the jordan bulls and showtime Lakers and act like that makes them normal too :)

You're comparing these rockets to arguably the most talented top 3 the league has ever had. Thanks for backing up my point

The obvious difference here is I am not a biased moron who compared rockets to those teams, you did compare them to the one I mentioned. Are you seriously this lost now? You forget what you have been arguing?

You literally said in the post I quoted:

"they'd be a favorite along with any lebron team"

I pointed out Lebrons trio is clearly better (one of most talented ever you say) and you come back with random MJ and all time team stuff? Thanks you are proving my ****ing point that this rockets team is not with the other All time great teams. They are a contender most years but not one of the favorites and definitely not close to this GS level.

This is 100% what I mean about the extreme bias from some of you guys constantly trying to prop things up. Rockets are both an all time great team but can't actually be compared to all time great teams because that would be silly. Duh, my entire point is they aren't on that level so thanks for finally admitting it I guess.

nastynice
10-03-2018, 01:55 PM
The obvious difference here is I am not a biased moron who compared rockets to those teams, you did compare them to the one I mentioned. Are you seriously this lost now? You forget what you have been arguing?

You literally said in the post I quoted:

"they'd be a favorite along with any lebron team"

I pointed out Lebrons trio is clearly better (one of most talented ever you say) and you come back with random MJ and all time team stuff? Thanks you are proving my ****ing point that this rockets team is not with the other All time great teams. They are a contender most years but not one of the favorites and definitely not close to this GS level.

This is 100% what I mean about the extreme bias from some of you guys constantly trying to prop things up. Rockets are both an all time great team but can't actually be compared to all time great teams because that would be silly. Duh, my entire point is they aren't on that level so thanks for finally admitting it I guess.

Bro, you just said between the heat and rockets there's no favorite...

I've probably said on 4 diff occassions these warriors are a diff level than the rockets, yet you keep replying to me as if tho I'm saying they are on par with each other...? What else can I do at this point?

mngopher35
10-03-2018, 01:57 PM
James Harden, CP3, Clint Capela compared to Westy, KD, Steven Adams is far closer than comparing them to one of the top teams above. Was this an all time great Thunder team to you? If yes we just view things much differently then.

Thunder did not win a title or make a finals with that group, they were simply a good contender behind GS/Cle in 2016. Rockets overall might be better but this is the type of talent they should be compared to not a team with some of the best talent ever (aka an all time great team). They have a very good team and are currently 2nd best in the league but that has been the entire point is there is an obvious drop off from arguably the most talented team ever. They could definitely win a title some years but wouldn't be yearly favorites or anything as mentioned

IKnowHoops
10-03-2018, 02:02 PM
That's cuz everyone was saying lebron deserved it, but no one was saying iggy over curry, lol, that was just cuz he was the one having any success slowing lebron down, and people wanted to give it to lebron, so it was some weird reconciliation thing or something, lmao, who knows!

Then they should of just given it to Bron since he was clearly and by far the best player in the court

mngopher35
10-03-2018, 02:03 PM
Bro, you just said between the heat and rockets there's no favorite...

I've probably said on 4 diff occassions these warriors are a diff level than the rockets, yet you keep replying to me as if tho I'm saying they are on par with each other...? What else can I do at this point?

You said there was no favorites, I mocked that idea and pointed out the obvious gap in talent there.

You could respond to the points I am making instead of apparently not reading and repeating yourself lol. Lebron is better than Harden, Wade was seen as better than CP3 is now, Bosh better than Capella. Seriously go start a poll with a thread if you think it is super close talent wise or something you are way off. I mean not only do they have more talent in each comparison but they also have a GOAT level player which Houston does not.

You are the type that freaks out about all the talent Lebron joined on the heat etc. and now want to say it was similar to this rockets team many didn't believe would work when they joined. Again this is the type of BS that needs to stop with some of you guys. Don't play both sides of things

Edit: I guess the problem is you actually believe Harden/CP3/Capela are as talented as Lebron/Wade/Bosh so you didn't realize it was mocking. Wow. Like I said start a poll if you don't think you are being ridiculous, that heat team is gonna be the favorites there Ill tell you ahead of time since it is like common sense.

IKnowHoops
10-03-2018, 02:03 PM
Huh? It's Curry Green Klay brother, always has been. #2 is Green not KD. For many reasons.

You and your GM do not think a like.

tredigs
10-03-2018, 02:24 PM
and they are led by 2 playoff failures, on a team built to try and play GS, on a team with something to prove. The Warriors talent level is far better, and they are simply a team that doesn't play to their potential until pushed. And when they do, it's over.

Stop trying to create a dramatic season dude, the Warriors had the last 2 chips wrapped up before the season started, and unless injuries derail them, they have it locked up again this year. That or they epically underperform and lose to a far less talented team, whichever one that is this year..
You're right, they were probably just trolling the Rockets all series into the 3rd quarter of Game 7 before they decided to start trying*. Seems like a reasonable take totally grounded in reality, and not one of those unwilling to admit that they were wrong to assume that the Warriors "broke the game" and are incapable of being challenged by true contenders (hint: not the dog **** the East has provided us for the NBA Finals).

To be clear, did the Warriors also use their superpowers to shrink the Rockets rim, causing them to miss their 30+ straight three stars no game 7? I just needs to understand the gravity of what level of super villains we're dealing with here. Thanks braddah.

ewing
10-03-2018, 02:30 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zd62MxKXp8


curry vs shumpert to end the series... he wanted no part of finally being the guy in the moment... lebron did what he did like there was no tomorrow because there wasnt a tomorrow..... this right here is why curry begged for daddy durant and this right here is why curry will never be better than Durant. I hate Durant but Durant takes shumbert to the hole and scores


You couldnt have played worse if you are curry in a game 7 in your own court... the dude went what like 6-19 while getting exposed on defense and giving up the ball to ****ing iggy on top of getting owned by Kyrie for the go ahead 3 only to be Defensed up BY kevin ****ing love???? He choked so hardcore and went out and begged KD and somehow KD is worse compared to a dude who couldnt beat a cavs team up 3-1 with 2 of the 3 final games at home? come on guys/

Wow! This is a great post

Hawkeye15
10-03-2018, 02:35 PM
You're right, they were probably just trolling the Rockets all series into the 3rd quarter of Game 7 before they decided to start trying*. Seems like a reasonable take totally grounded in reality, and not one of those unwilling to admit that they were wrong to assume that the Warriors "broke the game" and are incapable of being challenged by true contenders (hint: not the dog **** the East has provided us for the NBA Finals).

To be clear, did the Warriors also use their superpowers to shrink the Rockets rim, causing them to miss their 30+ straight three stars no game 7? I just needs to understand the gravity of what level of super villains we're dealing with here. Thanks braddah.

as I have said many times, the Warriors are/have been the only team that can beat themselves. Yes, they sleepwalked through the Rockets series.

As for the Rox, you live by the 3, you die by it. Their 2 stars are epic playoff failures, until proven otherwise. They proved my stance yet again. It's either injury, a bone head play, or a no show for either/or/both Harden/CP3. Every.damn.year.

So no, even going into game 7, I had a very, very low expectation of a Rox win. The Warriors played well below their ability, and still beat this juggernaut you GS fans are painting Houston out to be.

valade16
10-03-2018, 04:33 PM
You're right, they were probably just trolling the Rockets all series into the 3rd quarter of Game 7 before they decided to start trying*. Seems like a reasonable take totally grounded in reality, and not one of those unwilling to admit that they were wrong to assume that the Warriors "broke the game" and are incapable of being challenged by true contenders (hint: not the dog **** the East has provided us for the NBA Finals).

To be clear, did the Warriors also use their superpowers to shrink the Rockets rim, causing them to miss their 30+ straight three stars no game 7? I just needs to understand the gravity of what level of super villains we're dealing with here. Thanks braddah.

The Rockets won their 3 games by an average of 9 points, the Warriors won their 4 games by an average of 23 points. The Rockets blew the Dubs out once and then won 2 games by a combined 7 points. The Dubs won their games by 13, 41, 29, and 9 points.

In both Game 6 and Game 7 they were down at halftime to basically turn on the jets and crush the Rockets after halftime.

Game 6: down 51-61. Outscored Houston 64-25 after halftime.

Game 7: down 43-54. Outscored Houston 58-38 after halftime.


The Warriors coast the first half of games frequently and then turn it up after halftime and crush teams. They did the same here.

valade16
10-03-2018, 04:34 PM
That's actually pretty crazy now that I think about it. Games 6 and 7 the Warriors outscored the Rockets a combined 122-63 after halftime. Basically doubled their points. That's crazy.

Hawkeye15
10-03-2018, 04:38 PM
That's actually pretty crazy now that I think about it. Games 6 and 7 the Warriors outscored the Rockets a combined 122-63 after halftime. Basically doubled their points. That's crazy.

yep. The Warriors simply needed to be poked a bit, when it happened, say goodnight.

Like, I do understand GS fans trying to create some adversity for their own fulfillment, but at the end of the day, their team is just waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more talented than every other team. Just accept it and embrace it already, my god

SteBO
10-03-2018, 04:46 PM
Based on my eyeballs, the Warriors really beat themselves at the end of games 4 & 5, both of which were w/o Iggy. Their late game execution for whatever reason bordered on stupid, and it wasn't all HOU defense......simply put, only the Warriors can beat the Warriors. If their healthy, nobody has a chance.

Lakers + Giants
10-03-2018, 05:00 PM
Yup, as long as they're healthy, no team stands a chance.

Saddletramp
10-03-2018, 06:04 PM
Remember guys, the same guy who is saying this:

You're right, they were probably just trolling the Rockets all series into the 3rd quarter of Game 7 before they decided to start trying*. Seems like a reasonable take totally grounded in reality, and not one of those unwilling to admit that they were wrong to assume that the Warriors "broke the game" and are incapable of being challenged by true contenders (hint: not the dog **** the East has provided us for the NBA Finals).

To be clear, did the Warriors also use their superpowers to shrink the Rockets rim, causing them to miss their 30+ straight three stars no game 7? I just needs to understand the gravity of what level of super villains we're dealing with here. Thanks braddah.

Also said this:

If Igoudala does not go down, that series is a wrap in 5.

His answer will revert back when it suits his narrative.

nastynice
10-03-2018, 06:05 PM
James Harden, CP3, Clint Capela compared to Westy, KD, Steven Adams is far closer than comparing them to one of the top teams above. Was this an all time great Thunder team to you? If yes we just view things much differently then.

Thunder did not win a title or make a finals with that group, they were simply a good contender behind GS/Cle in 2016. Rockets overall might be better but this is the type of talent they should be compared to not a team with some of the best talent ever (aka an all time great team). They have a very good team and are currently 2nd best in the league but that has been the entire point is there is an obvious drop off from arguably the most talented team ever. They could definitely win a title some years but wouldn't be yearly favorites or anything as mentioned

Thunder were a VERY good team, better than those warriors actually, but that's neither here nor there and you're making a diff point so we'll let that go

I'm getting confused, but you are saying rockets are comparable to big 3 heat, correct? The big 3 heat had a short run, but in a snapshot they are up there as a great all time team. If they are comparable to the rockets (rockets are actually probably better), then you are just confirming my point. What am I misunderstanding here?

This has nothing to do with the warriors, we are better, we are on par with the best of the best. So I'm not saying this to pump my team up in some weird way that makes no sense, I'm saying it because the rockets don't seem to be getting their due. Game 6,2nd quarter, lmao, everyone thought we were toast

More-Than-Most
10-03-2018, 06:11 PM
I remember on here when the argument was whether the Warriors were better than the 96 Chicago Bulls... then they added KD. This Warriors team is the most talented team ever assembled and the best team ever. The Rockets, while a good to great team historically, are simply not on their level.

youd think this but tre was in here each series last year arguing for the blazers or just about how any team against the warriors had not just a shot but a damn great shot.

nastynice
10-03-2018, 06:11 PM
Then they should of just given it to Bron since he was clearly and by far the best player in the court

Yea, but they lost, so it makes no difference if he were the best player or the worst,they still woulda lost.

More-Than-Most
10-03-2018, 06:13 PM
Oh man, the block!

Remember this game where the ball handler cried for daddy too?

https://youtu.be/qmDsgGKHBEo

And this?

https://youtu.be/j0cp_0sE8ew

It's ok, daddy magic came thru. You should be used to it too, anytime Simmons is more than 4 ft from the basket I see him begging for daddy too. You ever seen it? Go back and watch them play Boston, you'll see it, lol ;)

except it isnt just the block but everything I mentioned... He was horrid that game on both ends and was the focal point of the other teams attack during the comeback... He was shook and couldnt deal with that kind of pressure because of how easy everything was before... He needed to go out and get that comfortable level back so he wine and dined the 2nd best player in the world to cover up his short comings.

nastynice
10-03-2018, 06:17 PM
You said there was no favorites, I mocked that idea and pointed out the obvious gap in talent there.

You could respond to the points I am making instead of apparently not reading and repeating yourself lol. Lebron is better than Harden, Wade was seen as better than CP3 is now, Bosh better than Capella. Seriously go start a poll with a thread if you think it is super close talent wise or something you are way off. I mean not only do they have more talent in each comparison but they also have a GOAT level player which Houston does not.

You are the type that freaks out about all the talent Lebron joined on the heat etc. and now want to say it was similar to this rockets team many didn't believe would work when they joined. Again this is the type of BS that needs to stop with some of you guys. Don't play both sides of things

Edit: I guess the problem is you actually believe Harden/CP3/Capela are as talented as Lebron/Wade/Bosh so you didn't realize it was mocking. Wow. Like I said start a poll if you don't think you are being ridiculous, that heat team is gonna be the favorites there Ill tell you ahead of time since it is like common sense.

Haha, bro yes miamis top 3 was better than rockets top, guess who else's top 3 they better than? Current warriors. But that doesn't make them a better team, just a better top 3,we have the better depth. Same with the rockets. Do you realize the rockets defenders outside of Capela can pretty much all play high level defense on both perimeter and post, they can switch almost ANYTHING, and they are almost all capable of hitting an open 3. Morey built something here that you can't even see..

nastynice
10-03-2018, 06:19 PM
except it isnt just the block but everything I mentioned... He was horrid that game on both ends and was the focal point of the other teams attack during the comeback... He was shook and couldnt deal with that kind of pressure because of how easy everything was before... He needed to go out and get that comfortable level back so he wine and dined the 2nd best player in the world to cover up his short comings.

Lol, Simmons tho..

FlashBolt
10-03-2018, 06:45 PM
I think Houston deserves a lot of credit for almost beating the Warriors but let's be honest... Harden played poorly and CP3 constantly being injured makes me wonder if resigning him was a good idea. Injuries happen but when the team depends so much on you, it gets old.

Saddletramp
10-03-2018, 07:55 PM
Haha, bro yes miamis top 3 was better than rockets top, guess who else's top 3 they better than? Current warriors. But that doesn't make them a better team, just a better top 3,we have the better depth. Same with the rockets. Do you realize the rockets defenders outside of Capela can pretty much all play high level defense on both perimeter and post, they can switch almost ANYTHING, and they are almost all capable of hitting an open 3. Morey built something here that you can't even see..

Lebron is better than KD (never a question on that) but this Curry is better than that Wade and Green is better than Bosh with what he can do. I’ve stopped responding to your idiot posts for the most part but this made legit roll my eyes.

mngopher35
10-03-2018, 08:03 PM
Thunder were a VERY good team, better than those warriors actually, but that's neither here nor there and you're making a diff point so we'll let that go

I'm getting confused, but you are saying rockets are comparable to big 3 heat, correct? The big 3 heat had a short run, but in a snapshot they are up there as a great all time team. If they are comparable to the rockets (rockets are actually probably better), then you are just confirming my point. What am I misunderstanding here?

This has nothing to do with the warriors, we are better, we are on par with the best of the best. So I'm not saying this to pump my team up in some weird way that makes no sense, I'm saying it because the rockets don't seem to be getting their due. Game 6,2nd quarter, lmao, everyone thought we were toast

Not at all. I have been making the same point, that what I meant by normal contender was they would be somewhere 1-4ish and then went on to compare them to recent teams. A lot of teams are always talented is the point lol, that's what makes this Rockets team not extra special all time.

I am saying the rockets could contend with the Heat but the heat would clearly be seen as the more talented trio/favorites there. So did that early OKC team (never won), Spurs team I mentioned (did win), Mavs and they had some other 7 game series on the way as well. Then you had GS/OKC/Cavs/Spurs teams and Rockets would fit right in with that mix too (probably a wide open debate there pre durants move if this rockets team were around). There are usually a small number of teams each year who look like real contenders for the title. Rockets normally would be one of these but not a favorite type. This is how the NBA works and has happened many years so what I was pointing out is there is nothing overly special about this rockets team in comparison to other regular contenders in years past. This GS team has KD on top of arguably the favorite team from that time and one that had a higher RS SRS and title before he joined.

Rockets are a very good team like I have said, just nothing special in all times terms. Stop denying that and propping them up to make it seem like these GS teams have tough competition instead of a pretty sizeable gap/advantage

nastynice
10-03-2018, 08:30 PM
Lebron is better than KD (never a question on that) but this Curry is better than that Wade and Green is better than Bosh with what he can do. I’ve stopped responding to your idiot posts for the most part but this made legit roll my eyes.

Haha, you just said Green is better than Bosh

nastynice
10-03-2018, 08:35 PM
Not at all. I have been making the same point, that what I meant by normal contender was they would be somewhere 1-4ish and then went on to compare them to recent teams. A lot of teams are always talented is the point lol, that's what makes this Rockets team not extra special all time.

I am saying the rockets could contend with the Heat but the heat would clearly be seen as the more talented trio/favorites there. So did that early OKC team (never won), Spurs team I mentioned (did win), Mavs and they had some other 7 game series on the way as well. Then you had GS/OKC/Cavs/Spurs teams and Rockets would fit right in with that mix too (probably a wide open debate there pre durants move if this rockets team were around). There are usually a small number of teams each year who look like real contenders for the title. Rockets normally would be one of these but not a favorite type. This is how the NBA works and has happened many years so what I was pointing out is there is nothing overly special about this rockets team in comparison to other regular contenders in years past. This GS team has KD on top of arguably the favorite team from that time and one that had a higher RS SRS and title before he joined.

Rockets are a very good team like I have said, just nothing special in all times terms. Stop denying that and propping them up to make it seem like these GS teams have tough competition instead of a pretty sizeable gap/advantage

Warriors are clearly better, we are in agreement on that. After the warriors, rockets are as good as we have seen in over 10 years, on par with the stupid stacked yet underperforming heat. A team which has arguably the best top 3 in nba history. We are in agreement on that.

What are we even disagreeing about?

Me n you. We got a thing going on, lol

mngopher35
10-03-2018, 08:49 PM
Haha, bro yes miamis top 3 was better than rockets top, guess who else's top 3 they better than? Current warriors. But that doesn't make them a better team, just a better top 3,we have the better depth. Same with the rockets. Do you realize the rockets defenders outside of Capela can pretty much all play high level defense on both perimeter and post, they can switch almost ANYTHING, and they are almost all capable of hitting an open 3. Morey built something here that you can't even see..


I can definitely see that this rockets team is very good but they are not better than that Heat team winning titles with prime Lebron. They would not be seen as favorites over them. Their trio step by step is less talented than that trio not to mention they don't even have a top 20 all time player let alone a top 2 like Lebron. Like I said though I love how you flip because you always used to completely ignore this stuff when bashing Lebron's move as weak in comparison to Durant. The hypocrisy is incredible from some of you guys and it just happens over and over and over and you just keep going.

You seriously believe this post the thread and ask to see who people think would be favorites. I think it is trolling tbh so I am not gonna troll the forum.

mngopher35
10-03-2018, 08:56 PM
Warriors are clearly better, we are in agreement on that. After the warriors, rockets are as good as we have seen in over 10 years, on par with the stupid stacked yet underperforming heat. A team which has arguably the best top 3 in nba history. We are in agreement on that.

What are we even disagreeing about?

Me n you. We got a thing going on, lol

You are just off base imo. This rockets team is not as good as the best teams in the last 10 years outside of GS with KD. That is exactly what I mean about the overrating part.

We have a thing because you are extremely biased and tend to have issues reading/responding to my posts for some reason so it ends up in circles (see you above not realizing my point after stating it repeatedly and in multiple ways earlier). You still don't seem to get the disagreement here lol.

You keep overhyping this rockets team as overly special. They aren't as good as the best team we have seen in the last 10 years. I disagree with that for sure.

Saddletramp
10-03-2018, 09:00 PM
Haha, you just said Green is better than Bosh

Question: would you trade Green heads up for Bosh right now assuming Bosh never had the heart ailment? I’m talking 2012 Bosh. 2018 Green for 2012 Bosh?


This sums up nastynice in every thread he takes a part in.



I'm getting confused



Yet he continues to post.

nastynice
10-04-2018, 12:32 AM
You are just off base imo. This rockets team is not as good as the best teams in the last 10 years outside of GS with KD. That is exactly what I mean about the overrating part.

We have a thing because you are extremely biased and tend to have issues reading/responding to my posts for some reason so it ends up in circles (see you above not realizing my point after stating it repeatedly and in multiple ways earlier). You still don't seem to get the disagreement here lol.

You keep overhyping this rockets team as overly special. They aren't as good as the best team we have seen in the last 10 years. I disagree with that for sure.

OK, we just disagree about how good the rockets are. You're convinced it's because it helps me boost the warriors somehow, I'm telling you it's because I think they are actually an extremely good team, believe what you want.

nastynice
10-04-2018, 12:37 AM
Question: would you trade Green heads up for Bosh right now assuming Bosh never had the heart ailment? I’m talking 2012 Bosh. 2018 Green for 2012 Bosh?


This sums up nastynice in every thread he takes a part in.






Yet he continues to post.

Actually I might, you just happened to pick a bad example lol. But I get that green is a perfect fit here, and more valuable to us than majority of top 5 - 30 players.

But in a vacuum Bosh is better, I'm sorry I don't even see how that's debatable, I'm saying this as a Warriors and Draymond fan

Hawkeye15
10-04-2018, 09:15 AM
Question: would you trade Green heads up for Bosh right now assuming Bosh never had the heart ailment? I’m talking 2012 Bosh. 2018 Green for 2012 Bosh?


This sums up nastynice in every thread he takes a part in.






Yet he continues to post.

Green is a more valuable player than Bosh was at any point in his career. Nevermind the fact Bosh had his issues after joining the Heat.

Hawkeye15
10-04-2018, 09:21 AM
Actually I might, you just happened to pick a bad example lol. But I get that green is a perfect fit here, and more valuable to us than majority of top 5 - 30 players.

But in a vacuum Bosh is better, I'm sorry I don't even see how that's debatable, I'm saying this as a Warriors and Draymond fan

Bosh is not better. Never was. The guy was so overrated, I don't get it.

Bosh was on the all NBA 3rd team once. Once. He never made an all defensive team. He never posted a VORP over 3.5. He never posted more than a 0.9 playoff VORP. He was basically Kevin Love before Kevin Love.

Green meanwhile, has made 2 all NBA teams, 4 all defensive teams, was DPOY, has had a higher VORP than Bosh ever did 3 times already, literally crushing him in value stats, 4 playoff runs with higher value stats, is more versatile, and just plain better.

I can't for the life of me figure out how Chris Bosh was ever looked at as a star. He was Kevin Love before Kevin Love.

Jamiecballer
10-04-2018, 01:13 PM
Bosh is not better. Never was. The guy was so overrated, I don't get it.

Bosh was on the all NBA 3rd team once. Once. He never made an all defensive team. He never posted a VORP over 3.5. He never posted more than a 0.9 playoff VORP. He was basically Kevin Love before Kevin Love.

Green meanwhile, has made 2 all NBA teams, 4 all defensive teams, was DPOY, has had a higher VORP than Bosh ever did 3 times already, literally crushing him in value stats, 4 playoff runs with higher value stats, is more versatile, and just plain better.

I can't for the life of me figure out how Chris Bosh was ever looked at as a star. He was Kevin Love before Kevin Love.I feel like you are setting an awfully high bar. The only evidence we have that either is anything less than a star has coincided with playing alongside the same all-time great player. If they put up huge numbers in every other situation I think the evidence is pretty compelling

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nastynice
10-04-2018, 01:48 PM
Bosh is not better. Never was. The guy was so overrated, I don't get it.

Bosh was on the all NBA 3rd team once. Once. He never made an all defensive team. He never posted a VORP over 3.5. He never posted more than a 0.9 playoff VORP. He was basically Kevin Love before Kevin Love.

Green meanwhile, has made 2 all NBA teams, 4 all defensive teams, was DPOY, has had a higher VORP than Bosh ever did 3 times already, literally crushing him in value stats, 4 playoff runs with higher value stats, is more versatile, and just plain better.

I can't for the life of me figure out how Chris Bosh was ever looked at as a star. He was Kevin Love before Kevin Love.

Lmaoo, bro!!

Well you gotta forget about his heat days, everyone is gonna end up magically sucking playing next to lebron. In t dot thaf big was one of the filthiest in the east

Hawkeye15
10-04-2018, 01:51 PM
I feel like you are setting an awfully high bar. The only evidence we have that either is anything less than a star has coincided with playing alongside the same all-time great player. If they put up huge numbers in every other situation I think the evidence is pretty compelling

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I apologize, not sure what you are getting at?

Hawkeye15
10-04-2018, 01:53 PM
Lmaoo, bro!!

Well you gotta forget about his heat days, everyone is gonna end up magically sucking playing next to lebron. In t dot thaf big was one of the filthiest in the east

I meant even prior to his Heat days. Look, I don't think Green can lead a team full of bad players to 50 wins or anything, but Bosh wasn't at any point a star player. He put up big numbers on a bad or meh team. Ala, Kevin Love for example. He was very eager to slide to a 3rd option might I add. During his Heat days, we all know what happened to him. Even before his ailments, he really wasn't anything we should call a "star" player with the Heat either. He was a nice 3rd option that never made an all NBA team with the Heat.

valade16
10-04-2018, 01:53 PM
I feel like you are setting an awfully high bar. The only evidence we have that either is anything less than a star has coincided with playing alongside the same all-time great player. If they put up huge numbers in every other situation I think the evidence is pretty compelling

I agree, Kevin Love and Chris Bosh were both stars (not superstars, but stars) prior to joining LeBron. Love averaged 23.5/13.7 on 37% from 3 in Minnesota while putting up monster advanced numbers. Chris Bosh averaged 22.8/10 for 5 years prior to Cleveland. Both were All-Stars every one of those years minus one year where Love was hurt.

They were star players.

Hawkeye15
10-04-2018, 01:55 PM
I agree, Kevin Love and Chris Bosh were both stars (not superstars, but stars) prior to joining LeBron. Love averaged 23.5/13.7 on 37% from 3 in Minnesota while putting up monster advanced numbers. Chris Bosh averaged 22.8/10 for 5 years prior to Cleveland. Both were All-Stars every one of those years minus one year where Love was hurt.

They were star players.

what is a "star" player? To me, that term goes around too loosely. If you just need to toss up some nice numbers and make some all star teams to be a star, then the NBA has a lot of them.

Regardless, no way in hell I trade Green for any version of the Chris Bosh we ever saw.

valade16
10-04-2018, 02:00 PM
what is a "star" player? To me, that term goes around too loosely. If you just need to toss up some nice numbers and make some all star teams to be a star, then the NBA has a lot of them.

Regardless, no way in hell I trade Green for any version of the Chris Bosh we ever saw.

Then this is simply a semantical difference of opinion. To me, I think Bosh was a star player because otherwise they wouldn't have touted the team as the "Big 3" or made such a big deal about Bosh and Wade signing with Cleveland. The idea was that 3 stars had teamed up.

Hawkeye15
10-04-2018, 02:03 PM
Then this is simply a semantical difference of opinion. To me, I think Bosh was a star player because otherwise they wouldn't have touted the team as the "Big 3" or made such a big deal about Bosh and Wade signing with Cleveland. The idea was that 3 stars had teamed up.

I have a much more cynical view of what a "star" is.

But, to the point it of all, I am not trading Draymond Green for Chris Bosh, at any point of Bosh's career. Not in any scenario I can think of.

I feel most have put the "Big 3" into proper perspective (results versus initial assumptions), but it's still comical to read how LeBron had one of the most stacked teams ever. In 2011, maybe a case can be made, due to Wade still being a top 5-ish player. But at no point is that Heat team worthy of being mentioned next to the current GS team, talent wise.

Jamiecballer
10-04-2018, 07:47 PM
I have a much more cynical view of what a "star" is.

But, to the point it of all, I am not trading Draymond Green for Chris Bosh, at any point of Bosh's career. Not in any scenario I can think of.

I feel most have put the "Big 3" into proper perspective (results versus initial assumptions), but it's still comical to read how LeBron had one of the most stacked teams ever. In 2011, maybe a case can be made, due to Wade still being a top 5-ish player. But at no point is that Heat team worthy of being mentioned next to the current GS team, talent wise.It's worth revisiting because we have seen just about every big who has ever played with Lebron become a spectator. And if Love bounces back than that's 2 out of 2 that have gone right back to form afterwards. Dont get me wrong, Lebron is not to blame for it, but clearly these types of guys cant thrive within his game, not consistently.

I actually feel like most people have acknowledged Wade was on the verge of being washed and Bosh was ultimately the guy who sacrificed the most.

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tredigs
10-04-2018, 10:17 PM
It's worth revisiting because we have seen just about every big who has ever played with Lebron become a spectator. And if Love bounces back than that's 2 out of 2 that have gone right back to form afterwards. Dont get me wrong, Lebron is not to blame for it, but clearly these types of guys cant thrive within his game, not consistently.

I actually feel like most people have acknowledged Wade was on the verge of being washed and Bosh was ultimately the guy who sacrificed the most.

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Not sure why we'd think Wade was on the verge of being washed (that happened in the postseason of year 3, no earlier). He was 29 and coming off b2b 78 game seasons where he averaged 28/7/5 with a 29 PER. His previous 5 games (playoffs) before 'Bron and Bosh joined, he averaged 33/6/7 on 56/41/78. All NBA 1st teamer both years. That's one HELL of a play to describe as "on the verge of being washed"! :laugh: This was the guy who was by far their best player in their first Finals together mind you.

ewing
10-04-2018, 11:09 PM
Not sure why we'd think Wade was on the verge of being washed (that happened in the postseason of year 3, no earlier). He was 29 and coming off b2b 78 game seasons where he averaged 28/7/5 with a 29 PER. His previous 5 games (playoffs) before 'Bron and Bosh joined, he averaged 33/6/7 on 56/41/78. All NBA 1st teamer both years. That's one HELL of a play to describe as "on the verge of being washed"! :laugh: This was the guy who was by far their best player in their first Finals together mind you.

Bc he played with LeBron


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Chronz
10-05-2018, 08:40 AM
It's worth revisiting because we have seen just about every big who has ever played with Lebron become a spectator. And if Love bounces back than that's 2 out of 2 that have gone right back to form afterwards. Dont get me wrong, Lebron is not to blame for it, but clearly these types of guys cant thrive within his game, not consistently.

I actually feel like most people have acknowledged Wade was on the verge of being washed and Bosh was ultimately the guy who sacrificed the most.

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2 for 2? Bosh got worse san bron

Chronz
10-05-2018, 08:44 AM
Not sure why we'd think Wade was on the verge of being washed (that happened in the postseason of year 3, no earlier). He was 29 and coming off b2b 78 game seasons where he averaged 28/7/5 with a 29 PER. His previous 5 games (playoffs) before 'Bron and Bosh joined, he averaged 33/6/7 on 56/41/78. All NBA 1st teamer both years. That's one HELL of a play to describe as "on the verge of being washed"! :laugh: This was the guy who was by far their best player in their first Finals together mind you.

Well when you isolate years without acknowledging the successive decline before bron ever showed up + plethora of injury issues + his athletic based game at an advanced age , I can see why you didn't see it coming, for the unbiased observer, it was clear as day. Bron was the best player taking on the brunt of the defense all playoffs. It was close that first year but it's sort of how people view curry vs Durant. Curry is better but people think kd is cuz he's taking advantage

Chronz
10-05-2018, 08:45 AM
Bc he played with LeBron


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He was declining and failing in r1 before bron ever showed up, not to mention being hurt every other year while carrying

ewing
10-05-2018, 08:50 AM
He was declining and failing in r1 before bron ever showed up, not to mention being hurt every other year while carrying

Wade was dominating with his mind.

Hawkeye15
10-05-2018, 09:13 AM
It's worth revisiting because we have seen just about every big who has ever played with Lebron become a spectator. And if Love bounces back than that's 2 out of 2 that have gone right back to form afterwards. Dont get me wrong, Lebron is not to blame for it, but clearly these types of guys cant thrive within his game, not consistently.

I actually feel like most people have acknowledged Wade was on the verge of being washed and Bosh was ultimately the guy who sacrificed the most.

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I guess I also don't view Bosh as a stud prior to his Miami days. He was KG light. Like very light, Mich-Golden light..

Hawkeye15
10-05-2018, 09:13 AM
Wade was dominating with his mind.

hahaha, this made me laugh out loud at work. Thank you

Hawkeye15
10-05-2018, 09:18 AM
Not sure why we'd think Wade was on the verge of being washed (that happened in the postseason of year 3, no earlier). He was 29 and coming off b2b 78 game seasons where he averaged 28/7/5 with a 29 PER. His previous 5 games (playoffs) before 'Bron and Bosh joined, he averaged 33/6/7 on 56/41/78. All NBA 1st teamer both years. That's one HELL of a play to describe as "on the verge of being washed"! :laugh: This was the guy who was by far their best player in their first Finals together mind you.

right but we saw his athletic decline already taking place prior to the Big 3. Couple that with his injury issues, style, and his inability to EVER learn to shoot, and it didn't take a rocket scientist to figure out Wade's 30's would not be kind to him. And we saw the gap enlarge between LeBron and Wade by year 2 of the Big 3 btw. Wade missed a lot of time that year, his series against Indy and then the Thunder showed clear signs of slow down, and by his 3rd playoff run, he was essentially Lt Dan.

Did you ever think part of why Wade was so good in 2011, was because he was not a top option anymore, and had a teammate sucking up the defensive attention? Now imagine Wade enjoying that luxury in his peak, and you have Kevin Durant.

WaDe03
10-05-2018, 09:41 AM
Open this thread to a bunch of blasphemous posts about the GOAT and can’t help but comment on the ignorance around here.

Wade wasn’t on the decline when LeBron joined and actually tredigs was spot on with his assessment. I’ve been telling y’all he as still elite in 2012 too. He had a slight decrease in scoring because thats the first year he embraced the 2nd option role and took less shots/free throws.

“Did you ever think part of why Wade was so good in 2011 was because he was not the top option anymore”

He was better the 2 years before without a co-star so I don’t understand why this would cross anyone’s mind.

I don’t want to see dirt thrown on the GOATs name from this point on, he Was a top 5 player through 2012 and was the guy that didn’t tuck his tail in 2011 and therefore was the teams best player.

Please show me this athletic decline before the big 3 because I can find you many videos of Wade dunking on defenders the 2 years before and even the earlier years with the big 3.

Which also leads me to think, Westbrook’s athleticism is so hyped up but he’s never dunked on guys the way Wade has and they’re about the same size. Interesting......

Keep sleeping guys

Hawkeye15
10-05-2018, 09:49 AM
Open this thread to a bunch of blasphemous posts about the GOAT and can’t help but comment on the ignorance around here.

Wade wasn’t on the decline when LeBron joined and actually tredigs was spot on with his assessment. I’ve been telling y’all he as still elite in 2012 too. He had a slight decrease in scoring because thats the first year he embraced the 2nd option role and took less shots/free throws.

“Did you ever think part of why Wade was so good in 2011 was because he was not the top option anymore”

He was better the 2 years before without a co-star so I don’t understand why this would cross anyone’s mind.

I don’t want to see dirt thrown on the GOATs name from this point on, he Was a top 5 player through 2012 and was the guy that didn’t tuck his tail in 2011 and therefore was the teams best player.

Please show me this athletic decline before the big 3 because I can find you many videos of Wade dunking on defenders the 2 years before and even the earlier years with the big 3.

Which also leads me to think, Westbrook’s athleticism is so hyped up but he’s never dunked on guys the way Wade has and they’re about the same size. Interesting......

Keep sleeping guys

no bias when it comes to Wade with you though....

everything said is true. Sorry to burst your bubble.

WaDe03
10-05-2018, 10:25 AM
no bias when it comes to Wade with you though....

everything said is true. Sorry to burst your bubble.

Nothing you said was true from what I read.

How did LeBron make him have a good season in 2011 when he has better seasons the 2 years before? That was just an awful take.

953692202772742144

“He declined athletically before the big 3.”

That’s one of the greatest poster dunks ever and it was during the big 3 era.

How soon they forget.

Jamiecballer
10-05-2018, 10:27 AM
Not sure why we'd think Wade was on the verge of being washed (that happened in the postseason of year 3, no earlier). He was 29 and coming off b2b 78 game seasons where he averaged 28/7/5 with a 29 PER. His previous 5 games (playoffs) before 'Bron and Bosh joined, he averaged 33/6/7 on 56/41/78. All NBA 1st teamer both years. That's one HELL of a play to describe as "on the verge of being washed"! [emoji23] This was the guy who was by far their best player in their first Finals together mind you.I just mean by the end of it.

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Jamiecballer
10-05-2018, 10:31 AM
2 for 2? Bosh got worse san bronMeh, I realize the rebounding never came back but he was pretty similar to his Toronto days for the 53 games

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Hawkeye15
10-05-2018, 10:37 AM
Nothing you said was true from what I read.

How did LeBron make him have a good season in 2011 when he has better seasons the 2 years before? That was just an awful take.

953692202772742144

“He declined athletically before the big 3.”

That’s one of the greatest poster dunks ever and it was during the big 3 era.

How soon they forget.

I mean, MJ athletically declined well before his second 3 peat. LeBron declined athletically by 2012. It doesn't mean you walk around like the T-800 at the end of the Terminator. It just means you are no longer as explosive consistently.

Wade, was slower by 2010-11', but still awesome. Decline is difficult to pintpoint, because usually the greats learn tricks, and develop other portions of their games as they decline athletically. Wade, did not learn to shoot, ever. His injuries and refusal to adapt caused a sharp decline, once it really set it.

Nobody is denying Wade was great in 10-11'. But the decline had already started, the writing was on the wall, and damn right he benefited from all the defensive attention LeBron drew. In fact it likely staved off the numbers declining faster for him.

WaDe03
10-05-2018, 10:47 AM
I mean, MJ athletically declined well before his second 3 peat. LeBron declined athletically by 2012. It doesn't mean you walk around like the T-800 at the end of the Terminator. It just means you are no longer as explosive consistently.

Wade, was slower by 2010-11', but still awesome. Decline is difficult to pintpoint, because usually the greats learn tricks, and develop other portions of their games as they decline athletically. Wade, did not learn to shoot, ever. His injuries and refusal to adapt caused a sharp decline, once it really set it.

Nobody is denying Wade was great in 10-11'. But the decline had already started, the writing was on the wall, and damn right he benefited from all the defensive attention LeBron drew. In fact it likely staved off the numbers declining faster for him.

He averaged like 22-4-5 the first year without LeBron although his shooting % dropped but that was after everyone was claiming he was washed for 2 years already. I’m sure he’s putting up much bigger numbers in the prior years without LeBron than he did with him.

Hawkeye15
10-05-2018, 10:54 AM
He averaged like 22-4-5 the first year without LeBron although his shooting % dropped but that was after everyone was claiming he was washed for 2 years already. I’m sure he’s putting up much bigger numbers in the prior years without LeBron than he did with him.

like I said, decline doesn't mean you died. It means you aren't the same explosive guy anymore, day in day out.

Wade get healthier, but he was nowhere near the old Wade ever again after 2011. Is what it is man.

WaDe03
10-05-2018, 11:00 AM
like I said, decline doesn't mean you died. It means you aren't the same explosive guy anymore, day in day out.

Wade get healthier, but he was nowhere near the old Wade ever again after 2011. Is what it is man.

Obviously he declined by 2015. You said his numbers would’ve been worse without LeBron the previous years than they were with him, that’s not the case. He was basically the same player in 2012 as he was in 2011, his numbers dropped due to him deciding he was going to take the role as 2nd option.

You guys are trying to overstate the decline to try and help LeBron, I’ve seen this story too many time. Wade was elite in 2011 and 2012, then the knee injuries started kicking in.

Hawkeye15
10-05-2018, 11:07 AM
Obviously he declined by 2015. You said his numbers would’ve been worse without LeBron the previous years than they were with him, that’s not the case. He was basically the same player in 2012 as he was in 2011, his numbers dropped due to him deciding he was going to take the role as 2nd option.

You guys are trying to overstate the decline to try and help LeBron, I’ve seen this story too many time. Wade was elite in 2011 and 2012, then the knee injuries started kicking in.

Despite his decline, Wade WAS elite in 2011. He was even really good in 2012 (the games he played, he missed a ton). In the playoffs, he was clearly WAY below LeBron's level though by that year. By 2012, Wade was no longer "elite", but he was still very good when healthy. But he was nowhere near a Curry/Durant level for example, those days were long gone.

nastynice
10-05-2018, 01:18 PM
Wade was arguably still in his prime when the big 3 joined. I'm not sure who saw the writing on the wall, but not a single person was talking about it back then

SteBO
10-05-2018, 01:23 PM
LBJ's play robbed Wade of a 2011 Finals MVP. That's how elite Wade was that year, and it continued when he was available the following year. After that, the decline was pretty noticeable imho.

Hawkeye15
10-05-2018, 01:56 PM
Wade was arguably still in his prime when the big 3 joined. I'm not sure who saw the writing on the wall, but not a single person was talking about it back then

Wade was for sure still in his prime when the big 3 started.

Why do people confuse decline with finished? My god. That isn't what I am saying.

Hawkeye15
10-05-2018, 01:58 PM
LBJ's play robbed Wade of a 2011 Finals MVP. That's how elite Wade was that year, and it continued when he was available the following year. After that, the decline was pretty noticeable imho.

the gap between LeBron and Wade by the 2012 was large and getting larger. Wade was still good, but no longer elite. The 2012 playoffs is literally the year Wade's production dropped him out of elite.

nastynice
10-05-2018, 02:13 PM
Wade was for sure still in his prime when the big 3 started.

Why do people confuse decline with finished? My god. That isn't what I am saying.

You said you saw the writing on the wall when they joined...

FlashBolt
10-05-2018, 02:15 PM
I felt Wade wasn't a top 15 player after 2012. Kept declining rapidly and people forget he was constantly injured so LeBron had to carry the Heat.

Hawkeye15
10-05-2018, 02:18 PM
You said you saw the writing on the wall when they joined...

it was. His decline was inevitable, sooner rather than later. You could already see his athleticism had started to drop. Not enough to stop him from dominating, but enough to know the decline had started. The dude never learned how to shoot, and isn't huge. So yes, the writing was on the wall. At some point in his early 30's, Wade was going to decline. It just happened to be age 30 when it happened noticeably.

Heediot
10-08-2018, 07:15 AM
Green is a more valuable player than Bosh was at any point in his career. Nevermind the fact Bosh had his issues after joining the Heat.

Fit and chemistry matter. Green is the better fit with the Kerr Warriors. Bosh was the better fit with the Bron Heat.

You put Dray on that team, the spacing on offense would be atrocious for Bron's drive and kick. Bosh provided spacing and a 3rd option.

Even now people question how Dray would play outside of GS because we haven't seen it yet. On the US team he was the 11-12th man FWIW with Harrison Barnes.

Bosh has proven he can be a reliable scorer outside of playing with Bron both before and after. So Bosh has that going for him.

I think it depends on fit and team construction as to how one guy will help the team.

Dray is the better defender, passer, and court vision/iq, and more gritty.

Bosh is the better scoring option and shooter.

I think you are selling Bosh short. Neither of these guys as the number one option will be more then a first round maybe 2nd round playoff team IMO. They are guys to help put you over but in different ways. Dray for defense-glue, bosh for spacing-scoring-switching defense.

Hawkeye15
10-08-2018, 10:56 AM
Fit and chemistry matter. Green is the better fit with the Kerr Warriors. Bosh was the better fit with the Bron Heat.

You put Dray on that team, the spacing on offense would be atrocious for Bron's drive and kick. Bosh provided spacing and a 3rd option.

Even now people question how Dray would play outside of GS because we haven't seen it yet. On the US team he was the 11-12th man FWIW with Harrison Barnes.

Bosh has proven he can be a reliable scorer outside of playing with Bron both before and after. So Bosh has that going for him.

I think it depends on fit and team construction as to how one guy will help the team.

Dray is the better defender, passer, and court vision/iq, and more gritty.

Bosh is the better scoring option and shooter.

I think you are selling Bosh short. Neither of these guys as the number one option will be more then a first round maybe 2nd round playoff team IMO. They are guys to help put you over but in different ways. Dray for defense-glue, bosh for spacing-scoring-switching defense.

I think Green fits any situation better. He is simply the better player, and blends in with any tempo/style.

You are right, in that neither is a top option. But Dray is easily the better player, the numbers show it, the eye test shows it, etc.

Heediot
10-08-2018, 12:29 PM
I think Green fits any situation better. He is simply the better player, and blends in with any tempo/style.

You are right, in that neither is a top option. But Dray is easily the better player, the numbers show it, the eye test shows it, etc.

LOL at easily. Many argue Dray is a system player, that skepticism might be warranted as we haven`t seen what he can do outside of a complementary role. We`ve seen what Bosh can do as the main guy and he is still 1st round fodder, until Dray proves he can top that as the lead dog, then I am giving my assessment of him as incomplete, not based upon the fact that he is flourishing in his current system as the glue guy.

Heat needed more spacing, Bosh is the better stretch 4, especially on long 2s. Teams are more less likely to leave him open for a 3 ball vs. Dray, who almost lost to Kevin Hart in a 3 point competition lmao. Bron`s game and ball dominance takes away from what Dray contributes, as Dray is a good passer and ball handler especially for his size. Curry and Klay can play off the ball, so Dray blends well with how GS functions. Bron back then wasn`t great off the ball Dray isn`t too much of a off ball threat either, at least scoring wise. That right there isn`t an ideal fit given the ball is run through Bron, then Wade would need his touches too as he is another guy who needs to the ball and isnt the greatest floor spacer.

Until Dray is all nba 2nd or 3rd team and first or 2nd round fodder as the main dog, I think Bosh has a strong case.

Like I said previously as well team fit-construction-chemistry also play a role.

nastynice
10-08-2018, 03:05 PM
I think Green fits any situation better. He is simply the better player, and blends in with any tempo/style.

You are right, in that neither is a top option. But Dray is easily the better player, the numbers show it, the eye test shows it, etc.

Definitely not. If you are actually saying green is a better player than Bosh, I dont think you understand what you're watching, haha

*him being a better fit on golden state is a good argument, but that's pretty specific

Hawkeye15
10-08-2018, 03:09 PM
Definitely not. If you are actually saying green is a better player than Bosh, I dont think you understand what you're watching, haha

the NBA disagrees with you. At least the voters, and the people who put together metrics/stats. My eyes also disagree.

Never got the Bosh love to be honest. It was one of the reasons I wasn't just sold Miami was going to win 5 chips in a row back in 2010.

nastynice
10-08-2018, 03:23 PM
the NBA disagrees with you. At least the voters, and the people who put together metrics/stats. My eyes also disagree.

Never got the Bosh love to be honest. It was one of the reasons I wasn't just sold Miami was going to win 5 chips in a row back in 2010.

Bosh was actually arguably elite at his role in Miami. It's just that when you're on a lebron team part of your role is being the reason for losing...

That, plus his role was nothing near what we saw he's capable of in Toronto, so that's why there's this perception that bosh sucked in Miami

Hawkeye15
10-08-2018, 03:30 PM
Bosh:
11 all star games
1 all NBA (3rd team)
no other standout awards/numbers

Green (by age 27):
3 all star games
2 all NBA (2nd, 3rd team)
3 all defensive teams
1 DPOY
a litter of top 5 finishes in defensive metrics
a litter of top 10 finishes in metrics (VORP/RPM, etc)

Green provides more offensively, defensively, any other way you cut it. I have been on record questioning how Green would fair being the #1 on a team. I don't think he could score 20/game efficiently, but short of that, I am not sure how a case can be made that Bosh has ever been the better player.

Yes, Bosh supplied a huge role for Miami. But he aint Draymond Green. Never was. Guys like Bosh come along (remember the early 2000's, when we had like 30 PF's that were all pumping out 18/10 or better?). Green's, Rodman's, Ben Wallace's, they are more valuable.

Jamiecballer
10-08-2018, 03:34 PM
Bosh:
11 all star games
1 all NBA (3rd team)
no other standout awards/numbers

Green (by age 27):
3 all star games
2 all NBA (2nd, 3rd team)
3 all defensive teams
1 DPOY
a litter of top 5 finishes in defensive metrics
a litter of top 10 finishes in metrics (VORP/RPM, etc)

Green provides more offensively, defensively, any other way you cut it. I have been on record questioning how Green would fair being the #1 on a team. I don't think he could score 20/game efficiently, but short of that, I am not sure how a case can be made that Bosh has ever been the better player.

Yes, Bosh supplied a huge role for Miami. But he aint Draymond Green. Never was. Guys like Bosh come along (remember the early 2000's, when we had like 30 PF's that were all pumping out 18/10 or better?). Green's, Rodman's, Ben Wallace's, they are more valuable.Care to make that list of 18/10 guys that grew on trees for us

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mngopher35
10-08-2018, 03:36 PM
Green is pretty easily a better 3rd option on a team loaded with stars. His skill set is far better to match up since he can cover the defensive end, creates versatility, spaces the floor and can put it on the ground. He brings major impact to the areas the stars are normally not as focused on instead of being a 3rd option scorer who will need to take lower volume because he isn't as good as the top 2 options but doesn't provide nearly what Green does in other areas.

nastynice
10-08-2018, 03:42 PM
Green is pretty easily a better 3rd option on a team loaded with stars. His skill set is far better to match up since he can cover the defensive end, creates versatility, spaces the floor and can put it on the ground. He brings major impact to the areas the stars are normally not as focused on instead of being a 3rd option scorer who will need to take lower volume because he isn't as good as the top 2 options but doesn't provide nearly what Green does in other areas.

Good post

Heediot
10-08-2018, 03:54 PM
Green is pretty easily a better 3rd option on a team loaded with stars. His skill set is far better to match up since he can cover the defensive end, creates versatility, spaces the floor and can put it on the ground. He brings major impact to the areas the stars are normally not as focused on instead of being a 3rd option scorer who will need to take lower volume because he isn't as good as the top 2 options but doesn't provide nearly what Green does in other areas.

I can see the defensive argument of him being a better fit against Bosh on the heat. I just don`t think the Heat fit him as well as GS offensively. Curry is elite on and off the ball. Klay is elite off the ball. Wade and James were OK off the ball, but their strengths were playing on the ball. I think that takes away from what Dray can bring on offense. You will live with Dray taking the three over Bosh IMO. Dray would have given them better interior defense though. Bosh is just as good on the switches, just weak down low.

I think both guys can help a team as 3rd or in a complementary role, but I think fit and chemistry matter though.

What`s underrated about Dray though is the guy is never rattled and he`s always focused. His leadership. Stuff that you don`t see on the stat sheet. Just don`t think his fit is that great offensively in Miami at least with the starters in place of Bosh.

I give the guy an incomplete until I see him on another team though. Cant blame the guy for producing and doing well on gs though. I can see people bringing up his metrics in GS and having arguments there, but for complementary guys metrics can change when the surrounding changes.

Hawkeye15
10-08-2018, 04:00 PM
Care to make that list of 18/10 guys that grew on trees for us

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KG
Sheed
McDyess
Dirk
Webber
Duncan
Walker
J O'Neal
Brand
Rahim
Marion
Stoudemire
Gasol

a high teen/high 8-10 rpg grew on trees back then.

If we are asking a guy to lead a team to an 8th seed, Bosh might be your man, he can put up more points. If we are asking for an integral role player/all NBA talent on a real contender, Green all day. We need to limit a role for Bosh to win this argument, where as Green is far more of a chameleon when it comes to winning.

mngopher35
10-08-2018, 04:11 PM
I can see the defensive argument of him being a better fit against Bosh on the heat. I just don`t think the Heat fit him as well as GS offensively. Curry is elite on and off the ball. Klay is elite off the ball. Wade and James were OK off the ball, but their strengths were playing on the ball. I think that takes away from what Dray can bring on offense. You will live with Dray taking the three over Bosh IMO. Dray would have given them better interior defense though. Bosh is just as good on the switches, just weak down low.

I think both guys can help a team as 3rd or in a complementary role, but I think fit and chemistry matter though.

What`s underrated about Dray though is the guy is never rattled and he`s always focused. His leadership. Stuff that you don`t see on the stat sheet. Just don`t think his fit is that great offensively in Miami at least with the starters in place of Bosh.

I give the guy an incomplete until I see him on another team though. Cant blame the guy for producing and doing well on gs though. I can see people bringing up his metrics in GS and having arguments there, but for complementary guys metrics can change when the surrounding changes.

They don't fit him quite as well offensively but also wouldn't have hindered him imo. They would have still been able to used his spacing/playmaking as teams shifted to Lebron/Wade even if not giving him as open area to use as Curry/GS. He still makes much more impact overall though given the impact he brings isn't as a sideshow to two other stars etc. it is defensive anchor type impact on one end (even if not traditional big he has extremely high impact on D). You mention leadership and I will just call it intangibles, I see it from Dray for sure and plays into why he makes a better 3rd option.

It would be very interesting to see what happens when/if green has a bigger role somewhere. I tend to think he would falter a bit offensively too but that doesn't really take away from who he is imo. Green is an excellent 3rd option and would likely struggle as a first option. Bosh was pretty good as a 1st option but struggled a bit as a 3rd option to reach nearly same high level impact so kinda opposite.

basketfan4life
10-09-2018, 03:45 AM
Lmao, this is my impression as well. He is clearly upset that Curry isn't getting enough respect around the league and that LeBron is still the face of the NBA while Curry is aged 30 and when Bron's prime is over, Curry will be too old and someone else will take over. Let's be honest: No LeBron in the league and Curry would be the face of the NBA today. Durant never joins the Warriors, Curry has four rings and we'll be talking about the GOAT conversation. Instead, we're talking about a 3X NBA champion who has never won a Finals MVP and who will now be known as Durant's sidekick. He doesn't want Durant gone because it's "too stacked." He wants Durant gone because Curry isn't getting enough attention. I mean, the stuff inserted from his keyboard strokes screams of dung. "LeBron shot bad from the field." Yeah, cause he was playing 40+ minutes with Matthew Delly as the Cavs 2nd best player and an overall roster in which none of them were competent and legitimate starters for a Finals team. Let's see how well Curry does if we reverse the roles. Is this even worth discussing? One team lost two of their All-Stars and wasn't even supposed to win a game after Kyrie's injury. No one talked about LeBron's TS% because he was literally their best option on every play. But Tredigs will push the narrative that LeBron played bad and at the same time say Curry played great.

No way, it is not that simple. He wouldn't have 4 rings and we certainly wouldn't talk GOAT conversation.

valade16
10-09-2018, 11:48 AM
KG
Sheed
McDyess
Dirk
Webber
Duncan
Walker
J O'Neal
Brand
Rahim
Marion
Stoudemire
Gasol

a high teen/high 8-10 rpg grew on trees back then.

If we are asking a guy to lead a team to an 8th seed, Bosh might be your man, he can put up more points. If we are asking for an integral role player/all NBA talent on a real contender, Green all day. We need to limit a role for Bosh to win this argument, where as Green is far more of a chameleon when it comes to winning.

Forgot Zach Randolph, Carlos Boozer, David Lee, and Al Jefferson. Antawn Jamison and David West were close.

Hawkeye15
10-09-2018, 11:53 AM
Forgot Zach Randolph, Carlos Boozer, David Lee, and Al Jefferson. Antawn Jamison and David West were close.

that is all I mean. Bosh was a good player, but by no means was he a stud player, who should be lauded as some all world player. Was he a nice 3rd option prior to injuries/illness? Yes, he was.

Heediot
10-09-2018, 01:31 PM
Bosh was a 22-10 guy for roughly 4 seasons before joining the heat. If you ante it up a bit, those numbers don't grow on trees back in the late 2000s iirc, could be wrong. He was a 22 and 7 after Bron, so his rebounding plummeted, but 22PPG bigs have become less since the heat big 3 broke up. AD-KAT-DMC-Blake-Embiid.

Hawkeye15
10-09-2018, 01:46 PM
Bosh was a 22-10 guy for roughly 4 seasons before joining the heat. If you ante it up a bit, those numbers don't grow on trees back in the late 2000s iirc, could be wrong. He was a 22 and 7 after Bron, so his rebounding plummeted, but 22PPG bigs have become less since the heat big 3 broke up. AD-KAT-DMC-Blake-Embiid.

the game has shifted to the perimeter is why. My point was, Bosh's numbers back in the 2000's were common as it gets among PF's with that usage/role, no matter how good or meh they were.

IKnowHoops
10-09-2018, 02:21 PM
Only if he re grows his balls. Do you have any idea how hard that sounds?

With or without balls, Durant already passed Dirk.

Chronz
10-09-2018, 04:32 PM
Meh, I realize the rebounding never came back but he was pretty similar to his Toronto days for the 53 games

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Yeah, nobody would get those boards from playing with the likes of bargnani back but that kind of highlights the hollowness of them too.

Still, his overall productive value was still lower. Outside that 1 year where he bulked up only to quit on the playoff push was the one outlier he could never return to no matter who was playing with him simply because he himself never wanted to play that taxing style ever again, and he never would, with or without bron.

So outside that 1 year here are a few numbers.

4 years before bron: 22.3 PER (115 ortg) , .175 ws48


4 years with bron : 19.4 PER (113 ortg) , .168 ws48


2 years after bron : 20.0 PER (110 ortg) , .144 ws48



Not to mention we rarely saw what Bosh looked like in the playoffs without bron. He was also a **** defender without bron to carry the load

Chronz
10-09-2018, 04:38 PM
With or without balls, Durant already passed Dirk.

Only if he lost his balls by accident and not on purpose

FlashBolt
10-09-2018, 05:44 PM
the game has shifted to the perimeter is why. My point was, Bosh's numbers back in the 2000's were common as it gets among PF's with that usage/role, no matter how good or meh they were.

People need to take a look at the Raptors when Bosh was their star player and how underwhelming that team was. They were a slightly above average team that won two playoff games in the seven years Bosh was on that team. In fact, with Bosh leading the charge, they were way below a 50% win average in those seven years. I'm not sure where the confusion sets in but he's only made one All-NBA performance in his career. Bosh was also a huge beneficiary of the PF position being fairly weak during that time - especially in the East.

IKnowHoops
10-09-2018, 06:07 PM
Wade was no longer in his Prime game 1 the very first year of the big 3 against the Celtics. That was not prime D Wade. That was a very good player, but a good margin from 2006 mvp Wade.

He couldn’t finish at the rim that game like normal. He kept trying and couldn’t. 15 games in at one point Bron called Wade “the worst finisher in the league”. Wade joked about it. By game 1 Wade had already lost a step and a half from his Prime, and for Wade, since he never improved his shooting, hurts.

Hawkeye15
10-09-2018, 06:09 PM
People need to take a look at the Raptors when Bosh was their star player and how underwhelming that team was. They were a slightly above average team that won two playoff games in the seven years Bosh was on that team. In fact, with Bosh leading the charge, they were way below a 50% win average in those seven years. I'm not sure where the confusion sets in but he's only made one All-NBA performance in his career. Bosh was also a huge beneficiary of the PF position being fairly weak during that time - especially in the East.

Yep. Absolutely. I have never understood why Bosh was looked at as a great player at any point. Very good NBA player. Nothing more.

Chronz
10-09-2018, 07:17 PM
People need to take a look at the Raptors when Bosh was their star player and how underwhelming that team was. They were a slightly above average team that won two playoff games in the seven years Bosh was on that team. In fact, with Bosh leading the charge, they were way below a 50% win average in those seven years. I'm not sure where the confusion sets in but he's only made one All-NBA performance in his career. Bosh was also a huge beneficiary of the PF position being fairly weak during that time - especially in the East.

They made the playoffs once in 7 years. Is your diss worse than mine?

Chronz
10-09-2018, 07:18 PM
Wade was no longer in his Prime game 1 the very first year of the big 3 against the Celtics. That was not prime D Wade. That was a very good player, but a good margin from 2006 mvp Wade.

He couldn’t finish at the rim that game like normal. He kept trying and couldn’t. 15 games in at one point Bron called Wade “the worst finisher in the league”. Wade joked about it. By game 1 Wade had already lost a step and a half from his Prime, and for Wade, since he never improved his shooting, hurts.
They went full bore during the streak that's why. Wade and bron had proven they could dominate at an insane level, just that wade had inconsistent health

ewing
10-09-2018, 11:18 PM
Everyone who ever played with LeBron sucked


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Jamiecballer
10-10-2018, 03:06 AM
People need to take a look at the Raptors when Bosh was their star player and how underwhelming that team was. They were a slightly above average team that won two playoff games in the seven years Bosh was on that team. In fact, with Bosh leading the charge, they were way below a 50% win average in those seven years. I'm not sure where the confusion sets in but he's only made one All-NBA performance in his career. Bosh was also a huge beneficiary of the PF position being fairly weak during that time - especially in the East.I'm not sure it's fair to put too much on Bosh, he played through 4 years of "Andrea Bargnani can be an NBA center". And not just he can, but a full commitment of playing time like a franchise cornerstone. That's a pretty damn big anchor.

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Hawkeye15
10-10-2018, 10:17 AM
I'm not sure it's fair to put too much on Bosh, he played through 4 years of "Andrea Bargnani can be an NBA center". And not just he can, but a full commitment of playing time like a franchise cornerstone. That's a pretty damn big anchor.

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Bosh was asked to do something he can't, which is make a bad team a winner. That is all really.

I meant more so, that people were just clamoring how talented the big 3 were back in the summer of 2010, and I wasn't buying it.

Jamiecballer
10-10-2018, 10:45 AM
Bosh was asked to do something he can't, which is make a bad team a winner. That is all really.

I meant more so, that people were just clamoring how talented the big 3 were back in the summer of 2010, and I wasn't buying it.That's fine, I respectfully dont agree with that assessment. I'm sure you didnt follow the team every day during those times in the same way I would defer to your everyday following of the Wolves when Kevin Love was there.

I mean, he was basically manning the paint for 2 in those years, meanwhile the team was force feeding Bargnani unwarranted touches. Bargnani was truly useless when it came to rotations, his awareness on the defensive end and ability to follow the play was truly the worst I have ever seen. People do not appreciate just how much of a beating his body took because of it.

I mean, take a fresh look at Andrea Barganis advanced stats during his time in Toronto and make note of the fact that he put up those hideous numbers being featured and playing big minutes. It's truly disturbing. Do it, just for a laugh.

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SteBO
10-10-2018, 10:57 AM
Andrea Bargnani......what a time it must have been for you guys :laugh2:

Hawkeye15
10-10-2018, 11:06 AM
That's fine, I respectfully dont agree with that assessment. I'm sure you didnt follow the team every day during those times in the same way I would defer to your everyday following of the Wolves when Kevin Love was there.

I mean, he was basically manning the paint for 2 in those years, meanwhile the team was force feeding Bargnani unwarranted touches. Bargnani was truly useless when it came to rotations, his awareness on the defensive end and ability to follow the play was truly the worst I have ever seen. People do not appreciate just how much of a beating his body took because of it.

I mean, take a fresh look at Andrea Barganis advanced stats during his time in Toronto and make note of the fact that he put up those hideous numbers being featured and playing big minutes. It's truly disturbing. Do it, just for a laugh.

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oh I agree with your take, I just mean, we know Bosh isn't capable of lifting a bad team to unexpected heights. He was an all star caliber player being asked to be a superstar.

Dude, you are talking to a Wolves fan. It would take far longer for me to cover the dysfunction of my team than it would to cover the good years. Hell look at us now

Heediot
10-10-2018, 11:08 AM
Bosh was asked to do something he can't, which is make a bad team a winner. That is all really.

I meant more so, that people were just clamoring how talented the big 3 were back in the summer of 2010, and I wasn't buying it.

I'm not buying this, easy to say in retrospect. You can say cohesively it wasn't the best fit, but talent wise people were right.

I think a Kyrie, Bron, Bosh all healthy and in their primes is a better trio fit vs. a Wade, Bron Bosh fit, but that doesn't mean the former is more talented vs. the latter IMO. If Cleveland would of replaced Bosh over Love, that team would of been nice IMO and would worry the **** out of gs before kd joined.

Hawkeye15
10-10-2018, 11:19 AM
I'm not buying this, easy to say in retrospect. You can say cohesively it wasn't the best fit, but talent wise people were right.

I think a Kyrie, Bron, Bosh all healthy and in their primes is a better trio fit vs. a Wade, Bron Bosh fit, but that doesn't mean the former is more talented vs. the latter IMO. If Cleveland would of replaced Bosh over Love, that team would of been nice IMO and would worry the **** out of gs before kd joined.

I mean, that was my view. I never though Bosh was close to a franchise guy, and while I knew Wade's decline was coming, even I didn't expect it so quickly I guess.

I understand talent versus fit man. Yes, the Wade/LeBron skillset overlap was one of the many reasons I wasn't buying 1000 straight championships when the Heat formed..

Jamiecballer
10-10-2018, 11:33 AM
Andrea Bargnani......what a time it must have been for you guys :laugh2:It was like living in a funhouse

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Jamiecballer
10-10-2018, 11:37 AM
I'm not buying this, easy to say in retrospect. You can say cohesively it wasn't the best fit, but talent wise people were right.

I think a Kyrie, Bron, Bosh all healthy and in their primes is a better trio fit vs. a Wade, Bron Bosh fit, but that doesn't mean the former is more talented vs. the latter IMO. If Cleveland would of replaced Bosh over Love, that team would of been nice IMO and would worry the **** out of gs before kd joined.Agreed. Bosh distinguished himself to be a level above Love, easy.

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Hawkeye15
10-10-2018, 12:07 PM
Agreed. Bosh distinguished himself to be a level above Love, easy.

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Yeah, he probably did. I guess the Love situation taught me quite a bit about good, really good, great, and elite. The differences I mean.