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View Full Version : Who was the best 1st Overall Pick Of All-Time?



Jeffy25
08-12-2018, 11:27 PM
Our current draft

1.
2. Bill Russell - Hawks (traded to Celtics) - 1956
3. Michael Jordan - Bulls - 1984
4. Chris Paul - Hornets - 2005
5. Kevin Garnett - Wolves - 1995
6. Larry Bird - Celtics - 1978
7. Stephen Curry - Warriors - 2009
8. Willis Reed - Knicks - 1964
9. Dirk Nowitzki - Bucks (traded to Mavs) - 1998
10. Paul Pierce - Celtics - 1998
11. Reggie Miller - Pacers - 1987
12. Julius Erving - Bucks (but played in ABA) - 1972
13. Kobe Bryant - Hornets (traded to Lakers) - 1996
14. Clyde Drexler - Blazers - 1983
15. Steve Nash - Suns - 1996
16. John Stockton - Jazz - 1984
17. Shawn Kemp - Sonics/Thunder - 1989
18. Joe Dumars - Pistons - 1985
19. Tiny Archibald - Royals/Kings - 1970
20. Larry Nance - Suns - 1981
21. Michael Finley - Suns - 1995
22. Norm Nixon - Lakers - 1977
23. Alex English - Bucks - 1976
24. Sam Cassell - Rockets - 1993
25. Mark Price - Mavs (traded to Cavs) - 1986
26. Vlade Divac - Lakers - 1989
27. Dennis Rodman - Pistons - 1986
28. Tony Parker - Spurs - 2001
29. Dennis Johnson - Sonics - 1976
30. Jimmy Butler - Bulls - 2011

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/draft_finder.cgi?request=1&year_min=&year_max=&round_min=&round_max=&pick_overall_min=1&pick_overall_max=1&franch_id=&college_id=0&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&is_active=&is_hof=&c1stat=&c1comp=gt&c1val=&c2stat=&c2comp=gt&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=ws

Notable picks

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
LeBron James
Tim Duncan
Oscar Robertson
Shaquille O'Neal
David Robinson
Hakeem Olajuwon
Magic Johnson
Walt Bellamy
Dwight Howard
Patrick Ewing
Elvin Hayes
Bob Lanier
Elton Brand
Elgin Baylor
Allen Iverson
Chris Webber
James Worthy
Larry Johnson
Mark Aguirre
Blake Griffin
Yao Ming
Brad Daugherty
Derrick Coleman
Bob Boozer
Anthony Davis
Karl-Anthony Towns
John Wall
Ben Simmons
Kyrie Irving
Danny Manning

Jeffy25
08-12-2018, 11:30 PM
Probably ends up being a Kareem vs LeBron debate, maybe Duncan and Shaq gets some votes.

The top 5 here would be a great one.

YAALREADYKNO
08-12-2018, 11:32 PM
Lebron

FlashBolt
08-12-2018, 11:41 PM
Only debate is Lebron vs Kareem. No way Duncan or Shaq has surpassed LeBron so that's out of the window.

LOb0
08-13-2018, 02:23 AM
That last season of LeBron's, despite how he went out in the finals was the best I've seen him and put him over Kareem for me.

blams
08-13-2018, 04:08 AM
LeBron, easily

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jaydubb
08-13-2018, 08:36 AM
Kareem

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Hawkeye15
08-13-2018, 10:19 AM
LeBron just a pubic hair over KAJ. By career end, LeBron will have put a little distance of course.

Go check out KAJ's dominance in the 70's. He OWNED the decade.

LeBron
KAJ

Shaq
Duncan

Magic
Hakeem

Oscar
D-Rob

probably how I would tier it out

Heediot
08-13-2018, 10:56 AM
Duncan. Changed the franchise/culture. Loyal, Humble goat teammate. 5 Chips, one franchise. No drama.

Bron and KAJ better on the court. Duncan the whole package.

Chronz
08-13-2018, 11:25 AM
Wilt doesn't count huh?

kdspurman
08-13-2018, 11:30 AM
Duncan. Changed the franchise/culture. Loyal, Humble goat teammate. 5 Chips, one franchise. No drama.

Bron and KAJ better on the court. Duncan the whole package.

I was curious if anyone would bring up this, I think it's valid in terms of what he brought to the franchise who drafted him. But I'm not sure if that's included in the scope of these

Hawkeye15
08-13-2018, 11:31 AM
I was curious if anyone would bring up this, I think it's valid in terms of what he brought to the franchise who drafted him. But I'm not sure if that's included in the scope of these

I don't think it should be, nor should you get extra credit for being drafted to a capable team.

kdspurman
08-13-2018, 11:38 AM
I don't think it should be, nor should you get extra credit for being drafted to a capable team.

Maybe so, but we can't pretend the Spurs in 97 were the same gold standard franchise they've come to be. They were a good team, but they had their share of drama.

Rivera
08-13-2018, 11:51 AM
Wilt doesn't count huh?

nah Wilt got drafted in the dreaded Jordan spot lol

Hawkeye15
08-13-2018, 11:55 AM
Maybe so, but we can't pretend the Spurs in 97 were the same gold standard franchise they've come to be. They were a good team, but they had their share of drama.

Right but we also can't credit Duncan entirely. The Spurs had a few things happen in a 2-3 year span that set them up for long term success. Obviously it needs to start with a superstar player, and one that can take a small market team to new heights. But when we start factoring in impact away from the basketball court, it all gets subjective. We also start penalizing guys who were simply drafted by idiot franchises when we do that. If we aren't going to penalize a player for being drafted by a Cleveland or Minnesota, we can't give a player credit for being drafted by a team that does it right.

Jabbar's trade request would be looked at like he so positively today for example. Shaq's departure from Orlando is rarely brought up. Jordan's struggle with his front office doesn't impact him. The whole exercise of loyalty is brought up to use against LeBron James. So I just don't really factor in loyalty, it's ridiculous to do so.

Heediot
08-13-2018, 12:41 PM
Right but we also can't credit Duncan entirely. The Spurs had a few things happen in a 2-3 year span that set them up for long term success. Obviously it needs to start with a superstar player, and one that can take a small market team to new heights. But when we start factoring in impact away from the basketball court, it all gets subjective. We also start penalizing guys who were simply drafted by idiot franchises when we do that. If we aren't going to penalize a player for being drafted by a Cleveland or Minnesota, we can't give a player credit for being drafted by a team that does it right.

Jabbar's trade request would be looked at like he so positively today for example. Shaq's departure from Orlando is rarely brought up. Jordan's struggle with his front office doesn't impact him. The whole exercise of loyalty is brought up to use against LeBron James. So I just don't really factor in loyalty, it's ridiculous to do so.

F that. Bron was with a capable franchise with the Heat and still bolted. The team he left were headed to the finals with him. You can say he legit left a ****** situation in Cle, but I don't see the excuses for leaving a front office led by Riley. The guy wanted more control, difference between him and Duncan. Duncan had no trust issues and let management and coach do their thing. Dude was up in arms about a washed up Mike Miller.

You will never find a more team oriented, humble, low maintenance superstar in Timmy. 5 Rings to boot and allowed the situation and culture to flourish by buying in leading by example and getting others to follow his example.

ewing
08-13-2018, 01:19 PM
Right but we also can't credit Duncan entirely. The Spurs had a few things happen in a 2-3 year span that set them up for long term success. Obviously it needs to start with a superstar player, and one that can take a small market team to new heights. But when we start factoring in impact away from the basketball court, it all gets subjective. We also start penalizing guys who were simply drafted by idiot franchises when we do that. If we aren't going to penalize a player for being drafted by a Cleveland or Minnesota, we can't give a player credit for being drafted by a team that does it right.

Jabbar's trade request would be looked at like he so positively today for example. Shaq's departure from Orlando is rarely brought up. Jordan's struggle with his front office doesn't impact him. The whole exercise of loyalty is brought up to use against LeBron James. So I just don't really factor in loyalty, it's ridiculous to do so.

Poor LeBron. Being on a team that had just won 66 and then 61 games, then going to a team that went to 4 consecutive finals,... His career is like one of those Sarah Mclachlan ASPCA commercials with all those sick dogs

Jeffy25
08-13-2018, 01:20 PM
Wilt doesn't count huh?

Territorial draft players weren't included in this exercise

Chronz
08-13-2018, 01:26 PM
nah Wilt got drafted in the dreaded Jordan spot lol

No he wasn't. Dude went ahead of number 1. He was so coveted even the team drafting first couldn't draft him

Chronz
08-13-2018, 01:30 PM
F that. Bron was with a capable franchise with the Heat and still bolted. The team he left were headed to the finals with him. You can say he legit left a ****** situation in Cle, but I don't see the excuses for leaving a front office led by Riley. The guy wanted more control, difference between him and Duncan. Duncan had no trust issues and let management and coach do their thing. Dude was up in arms about a washed up Mike Miller.

You will never find a more team oriented, humble, low maintenance superstar in Timmy. 5 Rings to boot and allowed the situation and culture to flourish by buying in leading by example and getting others to follow his example.

Lol Duncan would've bolted to Orlando had doc allowed him to bring his people on an air plane.

Riley doesn't look so good right now imo.

Chronz
08-13-2018, 01:34 PM
Poor LeBron. Being on a team that had just won 66 and then 61 games, then going to a team that went to 4 consecutive finals,... His career is like one of those Sarah Mclachlan ASPCA commercials with all those sick dogs
That's with bron. Look at what those great franchises could muster without the star addition/ departure. Spurs were perennially 50 wins low end, 60 high end before Duncan ever came on board. Cavs were gifted numerous lotto picks and remained dog **** before and after. Hell they downgraded a first round pick to a 2nd faster than anyone ever has. Do you ever think or r u on troll mode ad infinitum?

ewing
08-13-2018, 01:34 PM
Lol Duncan would've bolted to Orlando had doc allowed him to bring his people on an air plane.

Riley doesn't look so good right now imo.

That's b/c your like LeBron's and his cry baby generation. Nothing looks good to them.

Chronz
08-13-2018, 01:35 PM
Territorial draft players weren't included in this exercise

Why

Chronz
08-13-2018, 01:36 PM
That's b/c your like LeBron's and his cry baby generation. Nothing looks good to them.

Spurs look good. Fail

ewing
08-13-2018, 01:39 PM
That's with bron. Look at what those great franchises could muster without the star addition/ departure. Spurs were perennially 50 wins low end, 60 high end before Duncan ever came on board. Cavs were gifted numerous lotto picks and remained dog **** before and after. Hell they downgraded a first round pick to a 2nd faster than anyone ever has. Do you ever think or r u on troll mode ad infinitum?

Duncan did it with a ton of different parts, playing different roles, completely different styles even. The media wrote off the Spurs like 1000 times and they just kept adapting and contending. LeBron never adapted to ****. He thinks he deserves to be gifted the best team every year and if they aren't he blames his surrounds and leaves.

mngopher35
08-13-2018, 01:40 PM
Lebron slightly over KAJ for me

valade16
08-13-2018, 01:41 PM
Poor LeBron. Being on a team that had just won 66 and then 61 games, then going to a team that went to 4 consecutive finals,... His career is like one of those Sarah Mclachlan ASPCA commercials with all those sick dogs

The most amazing part about it all is that LeBron had nothing to do with the 66 or 61 wins, nor the 4 consecutive finals.

ewing
08-13-2018, 01:42 PM
Spurs look good. Fail

Until you are there and then I better win or Wah!

ewing
08-13-2018, 01:45 PM
The most amazing part about it all is that LeBron had nothing to do with the 66 or 61 wins, nor the 4 consecutive finals.

and that makes him less of an entitled *****?

Hawkeye15
08-13-2018, 01:45 PM
Poor LeBron. Being on a team that had just won 66 and then 61 games, then going to a team that went to 4 consecutive finals,... His career is like one of those Sarah Mclachlan ASPCA commercials with all those sick dogs

LeBron is simply the ultimate example. I have never felt "loyalty" matters. If a team drafts you and they are idiots, you don't get penalized for leaving.

Hawkeye15
08-13-2018, 01:47 PM
That's with bron. Look at what those great franchises could muster without the star addition/ departure. Spurs were perennially 50 wins low end, 60 high end before Duncan ever came on board. Cavs were gifted numerous lotto picks and remained dog **** before and after. Hell they downgraded a first round pick to a 2nd faster than anyone ever has. Do you ever think or r u on troll mode ad infinitum?

It took me years, and I mean YEARS (may still not be over this honestly) to not despise the Spurs, simply because they put on a tank job to land Duncan, and it just pisses me off to no end. How a team just a year removed from contender status lands Tim Duncan, pisses me off.

The dude hates LeBron, period. The Cavs are a joke, have always been a joke, and will always be a joke. Trust me, I know a joke when I see it, my team has been one since inception.

Hawkeye15
08-13-2018, 01:50 PM
F that. Bron was with a capable franchise with the Heat and still bolted. The team he left were headed to the finals with him. You can say he legit left a ****** situation in Cle, but I don't see the excuses for leaving a front office led by Riley. The guy wanted more control, difference between him and Duncan. Duncan had no trust issues and let management and coach do their thing. Dude was up in arms about a washed up Mike Miller.

You will never find a more team oriented, humble, low maintenance superstar in Timmy. 5 Rings to boot and allowed the situation and culture to flourish by buying in leading by example and getting others to follow his example.

Duncan wasn't followed like a puppy dog since 10th grade, and no, he isn't the same type. LeBron goes to a team where he is gifted chip help from top to bottom from day 1, I am sure a different story plays out. But that doesn't matter at all to me. Again, I could care less about loyalty. It's dead, been dead for years. While it's refreshing to see a Duncan/Kobe, put it in context please. Where the **** were either of them going that gave them better chances?

mngopher35
08-13-2018, 01:52 PM
Cavs were 1-13 from 08-10 when Lebron didn't play. Cavs were 19-63 the season after Lebron left for Miami. Lol what an incredible group he was playing with

ewing
08-13-2018, 01:52 PM
It took me years, and I mean YEARS (may still not be over this honestly) to not despise the Spurs, simply because they put on a tank job to land Duncan, and it just pisses me off to no end. How a team just a year removed from contender status lands Tim Duncan, pisses me off.

The dude hates LeBron, period. The Cavs are a joke, have always been a joke, and will always be a joke. Trust me, I know a joke when I see it, my team has been one since inception.

The Cavs have been good the majority of our lifetimes. In the 90's they had 3 losing seasons, from 2000-2010 another 3... entitlement run wild

valade16
08-13-2018, 01:53 PM
and that makes him less of an entitled *****?

I don't see how because teams he played for do well because he's playing for them means he's entitled. What you are doing is the equivalent of putting LeBron on say Washington State's college basketball team and watching them win the NCAA tournament and then if LeBron moves to UCLA saying "look at how good Wazzou was, he had a great team! Why did he leave". It's painfully obvious to everyone who is any kind of objective regarding LeBron that the teams he's been on have not been anywhere close to the best without him on them.

valade16
08-13-2018, 01:54 PM
The Cavs have been good the majority of our lifetimes.

Take away the years LeBron was on the Cavs, is that still true? In fact, the few times the Cavs were bad in the 00's was just before LeBron got there and when LeBron left. Coincidence?

ewing
08-13-2018, 01:57 PM
Take away the years LeBron was on the Cavs, is that still true? In fact, the few times the Cavs were bad in the 00's was just before LeBron got there and when LeBron left. Coincidence?

Taking a superstar off a team hurts. When you get nothing in return after stock piling vets and role players to fit with said superstar it hurts even worse. You guys make it sound like Jackie Moon was running the Cavs and the Heat

Heediot
08-13-2018, 01:57 PM
Lol Duncan would've bolted to Orlando had doc allowed him to bring his people on an air plane.

Riley doesn't look so good right now imo.

LOL. He was considering hard about Orlando that was the truth. He same some **** about the food in SA making him stay.

valade16
08-13-2018, 02:00 PM
Taking a superstar off a team hurts. When you get nothing in return after stock piling vets and role players to fit with said superstar it hurts even worse. You guys make it sound like Jackie Moon was running the Cavs and the Heat

Taking a superstar off a team hurts, but that doesn't mean it hurts equally for every superstar taken off a team.

For instance:

Cavs after Bron left: 19-63
Heat after Bron left: 37-45

Spurs after Duncan left: 61-21

Hawkeye15
08-13-2018, 02:01 PM
The Cavs have been good the majority of our lifetimes. In the 90's they had 3 losing seasons, from 2000-2010 another 3... entitlement run wild

why were the Cavs good from 2004-2009, and from 2014-18?

They were ok in the Daughtery/Price years. Ok. They sucked after that, they sucked in between LeBron there, and they will suck now.

Hawkeye15
08-13-2018, 02:02 PM
Taking a superstar off a team hurts. When you get nothing in return after stock piling vets and role players to fit with said superstar it hurts even worse. You guys make it sound like Jackie Moon was running the Cavs and the Heat

in your words, "poor cleveland". Multiple #1 picks they still sucked.

ewing
08-13-2018, 02:02 PM
Taking a superstar off a team hurts, but that doesn't mean it hurts equally for every superstar taken off a team.

For instance:

Cavs after Bron left: 19-63
Heat after Bron left: 37-45

Spurs after Duncan left: 61-21

Duncan was a role player at that point not a super star and he was willing to take a 5 million a year deal so the team could spend on other parts.

Hawkeye15
08-13-2018, 02:03 PM
Cavs were 1-13 from 08-10 when Lebron didn't play. Cavs were 19-63 the season after Lebron left for Miami. Lol what an incredible group he was playing with

it's just crazy to me that people don't understand how much LeBron has carried in his career. More than any star I have ever seen, and by quite a bit.

ewing
08-13-2018, 02:03 PM
in your words, "poor cleveland". Multiple #1 picks they still sucked.

cause that Bennet draft was awesome and top picks come most often come NBA ready these days

valade16
08-13-2018, 02:04 PM
Duncan was a role player at that point not a super star and he was willing to take a 5 million a year deal so the team could spend on other parts.

All true points. But serious question here:

If you took Duncan and LeBron off of each of their championship teams, how many of LeBron's teams sans LeBron are as good as Duncan's teams sans Duncan?

Were the Cavs or Heat Championship teams without LeBron as good as any of the Spurs championship teams without Duncan?

Chronz
08-13-2018, 02:04 PM
Taking a superstar off a team hurts. When you get nothing in return after stock piling vets and role players to fit with said superstar it hurts even worse. You guys make it sound like Jackie Moon was running the Cavs and the Heat

It hurts more when you have **** management and the star is what makes you great. Check out the spurs for an example, they lost Duncan then kawhi along with an aging core, still not the cavs

Hawkeye15
08-13-2018, 02:05 PM
cause that Bennet draft was awesome and top picks come most often come NBA ready these days

whatever your reasoning, Cleveland sucked without LeBron. Well run teams lose stars, and don't fall into oblivion immediately.

Chronz
08-13-2018, 02:05 PM
LOL. He was considering hard about Orlando that was the truth. He same some **** about the food in SA making him stay.

Never heard the good story, heard that drob called him tho

mngopher35
08-13-2018, 02:18 PM
it's just crazy to me that people don't understand how much LeBron has carried in his career. More than any star I have ever seen, and by quite a bit.

I mean most people do, at this point it is mostly the long time haters that don't acknowledge it. Those Cavs teams were poor without him and it was obvious then and in hindsight. Mo Williams was the 2nd best player I mean cmon man. MJ left the Bulls for a year and they almost made the ECF without him, Lebron left the Cavs and they were the worst team in the league. Some players just have great situations in their careers with the team who drafted them, Lebron decided to make his own great ones when he wasn't given those opportunities by Cle.

Jeffy25
08-13-2018, 03:00 PM
Why

I'm just referring to any guys that weren't slotted in the basketball reference draft links.

Jeffy25
08-13-2018, 03:01 PM
Duncan did it with a ton of different parts, playing different roles, completely different styles even. The media wrote off the Spurs like 1000 times and they just kept adapting and contending. LeBron never adapted to ****. He thinks he deserves to be gifted the best team every year and if they aren't he blames his surrounds and leaves.

LeBron James rookie year 3% - .290
LeBron James 3% the last 7 years - .362

Jeffy25
08-13-2018, 03:07 PM
It took me years, and I mean YEARS (may still not be over this honestly) to not despise the Spurs, simply because they put on a tank job to land Duncan, and it just pisses me off to no end. How a team just a year removed from contender status lands Tim Duncan, pisses me off.

The dude hates LeBron, period. The Cavs are a joke, have always been a joke, and will always be a joke. Trust me, I know a joke when I see it, my team has been one since inception.

The Lakers went 47-35 and landed Magic Johnson first overall and were the 5 seed.
They draft Magic with Kareem on the team (should have been MVP)

Then in 1982, they get Worthy first overall after a 57-25 season in 81-82 and had just won the Finals.

I know they acquired these picks, but that feels equally unfair.

Jeffy25
08-13-2018, 03:11 PM
I mean most people do, at this point it is mostly the long time haters that don't acknowledge it. Those Cavs teams were poor without him and it was obvious then and in hindsight. Mo Williams was the 2nd best player I mean cmon man. MJ left the Bulls for a year and they almost made the ECF without him, Lebron left the Cavs and they were the worst team in the league. Some players just have great situations in their careers with the team who drafted them, Lebron decided to make his own great ones when he wasn't given those opportunities by Cle.

And then is crucified for doing it.

Hawkeye15
08-13-2018, 03:12 PM
The Lakers went 47-35 and landed Magic Johnson first overall and were the 5 seed.
They draft Magic with Kareem on the team (should have been MVP)

Then in 1982, they get Worthy first overall after a 57-25 season in 81-82 and had just won the Finals.

I know they acquired these picks, but that feels equally unfair.

wel, they had a, bah bah bah bah, bah bah bah bah bah bah, great front office.

Seeing a pattern yet? When your manager is Buss or Red, or Buford or Krause, versus McHale, Kahn, Zeke, etc, it kinda matters.

Hawkeye15
08-13-2018, 03:13 PM
LeBron James rookie year 3% - .290
LeBron James 3% the last 7 years - .362

he also morphed into arguably the greatest playmaking SF to ever play the sport.

ewing
08-13-2018, 03:38 PM
lebron james rookie year 3% - .290
lebron james 3% the last 7 years - .362

ok

Hawkeye15
08-13-2018, 03:45 PM
ok

resembles my FT percentage in high school

ewing
08-13-2018, 03:51 PM
resembles my FT percentage in high school

How embarrassing


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Hawkeye15
08-13-2018, 03:57 PM
How embarrassing


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I shot better from 3 than I did the FT line my junior year. Yeah, it was embarrassing.

ewing
08-13-2018, 04:24 PM
I shot better from 3 than I did the FT line my junior year. Yeah, it was embarrassing.

I once went like 15 or 15 from the line in a JV game. It was a historic occasion seen by less then 10 people who were not playing and didn't get min any varsity minutes

Hawkeye15
08-13-2018, 04:30 PM
I once went like 15 or 15 from the line in a JV game. It was it a was a historic occasion seen by less then 10 people who were not playing and didn't get min any varsity minutes

we can't all be Rick Barry dude

cmellofan15
08-13-2018, 05:10 PM
lmao so now tim duncan is better than kareem AND lebron because he let the spurs control him? wow yeah, now that I said that...that's way cooler than being better at basketball. he's the best.

kdspurman
08-13-2018, 06:51 PM
lmao so now tim duncan is better than kareem AND lebron because he let the spurs control him? wow yeah, now that I said that...that's way cooler than being better at basketball. he's the best.

I don't think 1 person said that .

Also, they didn't control him. He had lots of input and set the standard for how players act in the locker room.

It was a 2 way street. But Timmy came in far more mature than many. In many ways, you probably will never see another player/person like him.

ewing
08-13-2018, 06:54 PM
we can't all be Rick Barry dude

It’s alright my coach didn’t understand analytics at all. He thought my range should be a “decoy”


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lakerfan85
08-13-2018, 07:17 PM
I can’t believe Magic isn’t getting any love in here.. Y’all are ****ing Nuts!!

mightybosstone
08-13-2018, 07:21 PM
1. Lebron
2. Kareem
3. Shaq
4. Hakeem
5. Duncan
6. Magic
7. Oscar
8. Robinson
9. Ewing
10. Baylor

nastynice
08-13-2018, 07:30 PM
Wilt doesn't count huh?

I just read up on this, Wilt was a territorial pick (back in the day teams could forfeit their first round pick to get a local guy, the hopes were that would create more fan support. So he's technically not a first overall pick.

He was an mvp his rookie year, lmao, he scored a third of his team's points and got a third of his teams rebounds his rookie year, lmaooo, bro that dude was a savage

nastynice
08-13-2018, 07:32 PM
I'd say Shaq, LeBron, or kareem here, take your pick

Jeffy25
08-13-2018, 09:08 PM
I can’t believe Magic isn’t getting any love in here.. Y’all are ****ing Nuts!!

Is he even a top 3 guy on this list?

LeBron and Kareem are for sure ahead, and you can debate Shaq and Duncan. His career, unfortunately, was just shorter than it needed, and he lacked the scoring explosion some of these other guys could do.

cmellofan15
08-14-2018, 12:49 AM
I don't think 1 person said that .

Also, they didn't control him. He had lots of input and set the standard for how players act in the locker room.

It was a 2 way street. But Timmy came in far more mature than many. In many ways, you probably will never see another player/person like him.

Yeah, not one, but two people have said it.

And whatever your argument may be about his maturity, loyalty, submissiveness, or whatever we want to call it, it’s not a reflection of his ability as a basketball player.

If you’re looking at Lebron thru the same rose colored lense you could just say he empowered players to take back power from the ownership and become more than just cogs in the machine. But at the end of the day this doesn’t matter because we are ranking them on their basketball ability, and I’m still taking Kareem anyways lmao

ewing
08-14-2018, 01:15 AM
[QUOTE=cmellofan15;32501718]Yeah, not one, but two people have said it.

And whatever your argument may be about his maturity, loyalty, submissiveness, or whatever we want to call it, it’s not a reflection of his ability as a basketball player.

If you’re looking at Lebron thru the same rose colored lense you could just say he empowered players to take back power from the ownership and become more than just cogs in the machine. But at the end of the day this doesn’t matter because we are ranking them on their basketball ability, and I’m still taking Kareem anyways lmao[/

Sorry post showed up 3 times

Heediot
08-14-2018, 08:22 AM
Duncan wasn't followed like a puppy dog since 10th grade, and no, he isn't the same type. LeBron goes to a team where he is gifted chip help from top to bottom from day 1, I am sure a different story plays out. But that doesn't matter at all to me. Again, I could care less about loyalty. It's dead, been dead for years. While it's refreshing to see a Duncan/Kobe, put it in context please. Where the **** were either of them going that gave them better chances?

Bron is about the image and the loot. Duncan not as much. Bron could easily take 5 percent of the Cap like Duncan and Dirk are doing. Bron has made 3-4 times money in his career in comparison to these other 2 (incl. off court earnings). I think he cares more about Bron vs. the team. Duncan was real close to Orlando, and even if he did switch up he wouldn't be manipulating and holding teams hostage and then bolting once things aint super pretty. Duncan stuck through a transition period with SA, where the big men were being mitigated and he adapted for the betterment of the team. he could of went to plenty of places since dude wasn't as money hungry as these banana boat dudes, he would of been a much cheaper addition to any team that needed a defensive cog, capable of getting buckets if they wanted him to score.

Based on on court play Bron is cleary 1 or at least 1 A here, Duncan fringe top 4-5. Based on how everything played out and who I would take 1st overall, it would be Duncan. He stayed with a small market team and was loyal for 20 years. The catalyst and main cog behind at least 3 chips, and a vital piece to the rest. I would take 5 chips with the easiest and most low maintenance superstar that you have ever dealt with for 20 years. Over all the drama without the same amount of rings.

kdspurman
08-14-2018, 08:36 AM
Yeah, not one, but two people have said it.

And whatever your argument may be about his maturity, loyalty, submissiveness, or whatever we want to call it, it’s not a reflection of his ability as a basketball player.

If you’re looking at Lebron thru the same rose colored lense you could just say he empowered players to take back power from the ownership and become more than just cogs in the machine. But at the end of the day this doesn’t matter because we are ranking them on their basketball ability, and I’m still taking Kareem anyways lmao

I must've missed those, cause I saw Heediot say specifically LeBron & KAJ> Duncan on the court, but other things were valued.

And you're right, it's not a reflection of his abilities. But it just adds to the TD legacy in general. I tend to think people forget just how great a basketball player he was tho, which I guess can happen when you play nearly 20 years

ewing
08-14-2018, 08:43 AM
Bron is about the image and the loot. Duncan not as much. Bron could easily take 5 percent of the Cap like Duncan and Dirk are doing. Bron has made 3-4 times money in his career in comparison to these other 2 (incl. off court earnings). I think he cares more about Bron vs. the team. Duncan was real close to Orlando, and even if he did switch up he wouldn't be manipulating and holding teams hostage and then bolting once things aint super pretty. Duncan stuck through a transition period with SA, where the big men were being mitigated and he adapted for the betterment of the team. he could of went to plenty of places since dude wasn't as money hungry as these banana boat dudes, he would of been a much cheaper addition to any team that needed a defensive cog, capable of getting buckets if they wanted him to score.

Based on on court play Bron is cleary 1 or at least 1 A here, Duncan fringe top 4-5. Based on how everything played out and who I would take 1st overall, it would be Duncan. He stayed with a small market team and was loyal for 20 years. The catalyst and main cog behind at least 3 chips, and a vital piece to the rest. I would take 5 chips with the easiest and most low maintenance superstar that you have ever dealt with for 20 years. Over all the drama without the same amount of rings.

agreed there are two ways to answer this question who is the best player taken 1st and who was the best pick? Duncan was the best pick b/c he was good to the team that drafted him. Bron was definitely a better player but good luck making him stick around long term or allowing you to think about the franchise in the long term. Do you think a LeBron lead team trade's George Hill in his 3rd year for a mid first round pick when Tony is starting to look old and have more and more injury issues. I doubt it

Hawkeye15
08-14-2018, 09:16 AM
Bron is about the image and the loot. Duncan not as much. Bron could easily take 5 percent of the Cap like Duncan and Dirk are doing. Bron has made 3-4 times money in his career in comparison to these other 2 (incl. off court earnings). I think he cares more about Bron vs. the team. Duncan was real close to Orlando, and even if he did switch up he wouldn't be manipulating and holding teams hostage and then bolting once things aint super pretty. Duncan stuck through a transition period with SA, where the big men were being mitigated and he adapted for the betterment of the team. he could of went to plenty of places since dude wasn't as money hungry as these banana boat dudes, he would of been a much cheaper addition to any team that needed a defensive cog, capable of getting buckets if they wanted him to score.

Based on on court play Bron is cleary 1 or at least 1 A here, Duncan fringe top 4-5. Based on how everything played out and who I would take 1st overall, it would be Duncan. He stayed with a small market team and was loyal for 20 years. The catalyst and main cog behind at least 3 chips, and a vital piece to the rest. I would take 5 chips with the easiest and most low maintenance superstar that you have ever dealt with for 20 years. Over all the drama without the same amount of rings.

all I am telling you, is I don't care about this. At all.

Stay with a small market team, in a city where you can buy a mansion for 400k, no state income taxes, and a front office that plucks championship help out of non-lottery picks. All with a nearly non-existent media that appeals to an introvert like Duncan. What a sacrifice...

Hawkeye15
08-14-2018, 09:18 AM
agreed there are two ways to answer this question who is the best player taken 1st and who was the best pick? Duncan was the best pick b/c he was good to the team that drafted him. Bron was definitely a better player but good luck making him stick around long term or allowing you to think about the franchise in the long term. Do you think a LeBron lead team trade's George Hill in his 3rd year for a mid first round pick when Tony is starting to look old and have more and more injury issues. I doubt it

I would love to see what LeBron did with D-Rob, Manu, Elliot, Parker, Pops, etc from day 1. I would then love to see what Duncan did with Brown, Mo Williams, and Carlos Boozer as his best teammates. You think he is sticking around?

kdspurman
08-14-2018, 09:33 AM
I would love to see what LeBron did with D-Rob, Manu, Elliot, Parker, Pops, etc from day 1. I would then love to see what Duncan did with Brown, Mo Williams, and Carlos Boozer as his best teammates. You think he is sticking around?

Who knows if Lebron would be able to be coached the way Pop coaches his guys

Hawkeye15
08-14-2018, 09:42 AM
Who knows if Lebron would be able to be coached the way Pop coaches his guys

its all hypothetical, probably not even worth the effort of arguing it. My point is, how can we possibly hold one guy accountable for the front office/roster support, when his situation is entirely different than another players? We can't use factors out of a players control to rank them. I get that people love to see a guy drafted by a team, make financial sacrifices, and stay with that team and win a bunch of rings. But the reality is, not everyone is drafted by good teams. The uber reality is, most teams drafting up top, are bad for a reason.

I just don't use it as a factor when ranking. I am sure a person would LOVE to be born into a family with structure, money, great parents, successful family, etc, over a family with a dysfunctional mother, no money, bad neighborhood, etc. So why would we credit the person born into a great situation for having those luxuries, and bash the person who may have needed to reach out and leave his surroundings to flourish?

I hate to put it like that, but it couldn't be more similar. We blast entitlement everyday, yet aren't Duncan, Magic, Kobe, all pretty much just lucky on where they were drafted? Sure they did the heavy lifting, but their surrounding factors were ideal for success. Why do we give them credit for that?

ewing
08-14-2018, 09:51 AM
its all hypothetical, probably not even worth the effort of arguing it. My point is, how can we possibly hold one guy accountable for the front office/roster support, when his situation is entirely different than another players? We can't use factors out of a players control to rank them. I get that people love to see a guy drafted by a team, make financial sacrifices, and stay with that team and win a bunch of rings. But the reality is, not everyone is drafted by good teams. The uber reality is, most teams drafting up top, are bad for a reason.

I just don't use it as a factor when ranking. I am sure a person would LOVE to be born into a family with structure, money, great parents, successful family, etc, over a family with a dysfunctional mother, no money, bad neighborhood, etc. So why would we credit the person born into a great situation for having those luxuries, and bash the person who may have needed to reach out and leave his surroundings to flourish?

I hate to put it like that, but it couldn't be more similar. We blast entitlement everyday, yet aren't Duncan, Magic, Kobe, all pretty much just lucky on where they were drafted? Sure they did the heavy lifting, but their surrounding factors were ideal for success. Why do we give them credit for that?

I liked my Sarah Mclachlan analogy better :shrug:

Hawkeye15
08-14-2018, 10:11 AM
I liked my Sarah Mclachlan analogy better :shrug:

I can't even watch a commercial she is involved in...

I get your "career versus player" analogy. I do. I just have a sore spot for anyone not drafted to amazing teams, because its nauseating to read about loyalty. It's like if a person "stuck with" Kate Upton, and she was like the coolest chick ever, loved sex, loved sports, loved to give her man alone time, was great with the family, all in all just perfect. Are we giving credit to a guy for sticking with her? I mean, what a trooper, right?

kobebabe
08-14-2018, 10:53 AM
Unfortunately most of us didn’t get to see KAJ play like we’ve Lebron. We can only go by statistics.
I will give Lebron the edge here considering he isn’t done with his career yet and by the end of his career he will be the clear cut best number 1 pick ever

valade16
08-14-2018, 12:25 PM
its all hypothetical, probably not even worth the effort of arguing it. My point is, how can we possibly hold one guy accountable for the front office/roster support, when his situation is entirely different than another players? We can't use factors out of a players control to rank them. I get that people love to see a guy drafted by a team, make financial sacrifices, and stay with that team and win a bunch of rings. But the reality is, not everyone is drafted by good teams. The uber reality is, most teams drafting up top, are bad for a reason.

I just don't use it as a factor when ranking. I am sure a person would LOVE to be born into a family with structure, money, great parents, successful family, etc, over a family with a dysfunctional mother, no money, bad neighborhood, etc. So why would we credit the person born into a great situation for having those luxuries, and bash the person who may have needed to reach out and leave his surroundings to flourish?

I hate to put it like that, but it couldn't be more similar. We blast entitlement everyday, yet aren't Duncan, Magic, Kobe, all pretty much just lucky on where they were drafted? Sure they did the heavy lifting, but their surrounding factors were ideal for success. Why do we give them credit for that?

I disagree. If Duncan is drafted onto the Cavs in 2003 I don't know if he's a Cav for life, he may be, he may not be, but if LeBron is drafted onto the Spurs in 1998 he is a Spur for life.

Chronz
08-14-2018, 12:39 PM
Lmfao. Duncan ain't staying in Cleveland man.

kdspurman
08-14-2018, 12:49 PM
I disagree. If Duncan is drafted onto the Cavs in 2003 I don't know if he's a Cav for life, he may be, he may not be, but if LeBron is drafted onto the Spurs in 1998 he is a Spur for life.

97 fwiw.. But there's no way to say that. That Spurs culture would be completely different, and who knows if it's one Lebron would want to stay in. Especially with how strict Pop is and the way they tried to emphasize no player is bigger than the team, etc... Lebron operates a little differently

valade16
08-14-2018, 12:56 PM
97 fwiw.. But there's no way to say that. That Spurs culture would be completely different, and who knows if it's one Lebron would want to stay in. Especially with how strict Pop is and the way they tried to emphasize no player is bigger than the team, etc... Lebron operates a little differently

I really don't think that'd be a problem, LeBron has spoken numerous times on how much he respects Pop. There were even rumors he'd consider SA based solely on his respect for Pop. The idea that Duncan is the only superstar in history who could have possibly been coached by Pop is ridiculous to me.

Bron coming onto what was essentially already a 50 win team with D-Rob healthy? Yeah, they win chips and he stays there a long time.

kdspurman
08-14-2018, 01:15 PM
I really don't think that'd be a problem, LeBron has spoken numerous times on how much he respects Pop. There were even rumors he'd consider SA based solely on his respect for Pop. The idea that Duncan is the only superstar in history who could have possibly been coached by Pop is ridiculous to me.

Bron coming onto what was essentially already a 50 win team with D-Rob healthy? Yeah, they win chips and he stays there a long time.

Nah I didn't say that. But the culture that Lebron has grown to admire about the Spurs? Yea, that foundation was laid by Duncan. It's a completely different team/locker room if he's not there.

And while he said what he said about Pop, not a lot of guys (especially guys who have big egos) are able to play for someone like that. Someone who will rip you in front of the team, on the court/on national television, where ever. We've seen him get into it with some coaches and what not, calling them/teammates out in interviews, etc... that stuff wouldn't fly with Pop. And because Lebron came in with the label "the king" and everything, he was probably able to do whatever he wanted for the most part.

Heediot
08-14-2018, 01:32 PM
I really don't think that'd be a problem, LeBron has spoken numerous times on how much he respects Pop. There were even rumors he'd consider SA based solely on his respect for Pop. The idea that Duncan is the only superstar in history who could have possibly been coached by Pop is ridiculous to me.

Bron coming onto what was essentially already a 50 win team with D-Rob healthy? Yeah, they win chips and he stays there a long time.

I think some of y'all are giving LeBron too much credit.

The guy bolted his bff(Wade) in Miami and another close friend (Bosh) after winning 2 titles in 4 years. A 50 percent ratio, and if he stuck for at least a 5th year he would of went to the finals again and had a shot at adding more. He took GS to 6 without Kyrie, I think with Bosh and Wade he might of beaten them that one year. He was shook of the spurs lmao, who just whooped his heat team who in hindsight weren't going to be in the finals that following year.

When he returned to Cleveland 80 percent of fans thought it would be unreal if he ditched them again. The impact on his legacy would be perceived bad back then. Guess what the guy left 4 years later too, after winning another ship with them. Bron tells the team the importance of JR and TT and says they deserve their new raises. He picks the team he wants to go to war with paying historic luxury tax money and Bolts when the team he wanted assembled isn't good enough.

When Bron sticks to a team for a decade or more, y'all can have the argument that he would be a lifer with anyone. He had just as much love or more for his hometown and his homeboys as he does for Popovich and the guy still left them all hanging.

Bron is more about Legacy/Brand Power/Fame/Money vs. Duncan who is more of a simple man. Not to say Duncnan didn't make a tonne of money before LeBron's current age either. Duncan doesn't care about farewell tours, how many much credit he gets. Duncan was about the team. Ducan was OK with being the 4th best paid and even the 7th best paid by the time he's Bron's age now. Bron on the other hand is about himself first and foremost. I can't say I'm convinced he would stay on the Spurs because he left teams that he won ships with and pretty good situations too.

You also look at Kawhi, the guy seemed like the next Spur lifer, but boom he couldn't be convinced of staying and didn't even make it past his his 2nd contract. Kawhi is being convinced by his circle that he could develop a bigger brand elsewhere. Money and Fame talks. Timmy in comparison to the other two is less enamored with Brand and excess Money.

I'm not convinced Duncan would of left Cleveland either. I don't think the team drafts the same players and has the same roster if they had Duncan. Something has to give for the Ducan/Zy/Varajao dynamic. Drew Gooden might not have been drafted. Who knows what would of happened with Boozer. Even if he was draft in 04 hypothetically, the roster built around a Bron vs. Duncan would have many different considerations and variables for them to have the same cast moving on from there. I'm not convinced he would of stayed, but neither am I convinced he would of left. Given their personalities and the way they both see the world, I think Duncan would be easier to convince ti stick around.

valade16
08-14-2018, 01:49 PM
Nah I didn't say that. But the culture that Lebron has grown to admire about the Spurs? Yea, that foundation was laid by Duncan. It's a completely different team/locker room if he's not there.

And while he said what he said about Pop, not a lot of guys (especially guys who have big egos) are able to play for someone like that. Someone who will rip you in front of the team, on the court/on national television, where ever. We've seen him get into it with some coaches and what not, calling them/teammates out in interviews, etc... that stuff wouldn't fly with Pop. And because Lebron came in with the label "the king" and everything, he was probably able to do whatever he wanted for the most part.

Yeah I get your argument, I just don't buy it. LeBron would have been fine playing for Pops, especially when the team is winning a bunch of Chips (as a Bron/D-Rob/Pop trio would have done).

valade16
08-14-2018, 01:52 PM
I think some of y'all are giving LeBron too much credit.

The guy bolted his bff(Wade) in Miami and another close friend (Bosh) after winning 2 titles in 4 years. A 50 percent ratio, and if he stuck for at least a 5th year he would of went to the finals again and had a shot at adding more. He took GS to 6 without Kyrie, I think with Bosh and Wade he might of beaten them that one year. He was shook of the spurs lmao, who just whooped his heat team who in hindsight weren't going to be in the finals that following year.

When he returned to Cleveland 80 percent of fans thought it would be unreal if he ditched them again. The impact on his legacy would be perceived bad back then. Guess what the guy left 4 years later too, after winning another ship with them. Bron tells the team the importance of JR and TT and says they deserve their new raises. He picks the team he wants to go to war with paying historic luxury tax money and Bolts when the team he wanted assembled isn't good enough.

When Bron sticks to a team for a decade or more, y'all can have the argument that he would be a lifer with anyone. He had just as much love or more for his hometown and his homeboys as he does for Popovich and the guy still left them all hanging.

Bron is more about Legacy/Brand Power/Fame/Money vs. Duncan who is more of a simple man. Not to say Duncnan didn't make a tonne of money before LeBron's current age either. Duncan doesn't care about farewell tours, how many much credit he gets. Duncan was about the team. Ducan was OK with being the 4th best paid and even the 7th best paid by the time he's Bron's age now. Bron on the other hand is about himself first and foremost. I can't say I'm convinced he would stay on the Spurs because he left teams that he won ships with and pretty good situations too.

You also look at Kawhi, the guy seemed like the next Spur lifer, but boom he couldn't be convinced of staying and didn't even make it past his his 2nd contract. Kawhi is being convinced by his circle that he could develop a bigger brand elsewhere. Money and Fame talks. Timmy in comparison to the other two is less enamored with Brand and excess Money.

I'm not convinced Duncan would of left Cleveland either. I don't think the team drafts the same players and has the same roster if they had Duncan. Something has to give for the Ducan/Zy/Varajao dynamic. Drew Gooden might not have been drafted. Who knows what would of happened with Boozer. Even if he was draft in 04 hypothetically, the roster built around a Bron vs. Duncan would have many different considerations and variables for them to have the same cast moving on from there. I'm not convinced he would of stayed, but neither am I convinced he would of left. Given their personalities and the way they both see the world, I think Duncan would be easier to convince ti stick around.

All this said is LeBron always left when he didn't have the best team... well with the Spurs he'd have the best team. Seriously, he'd have walked into multiple championships, have been rebuilt into multiple championships and then been rebuilt again into multiple championships.

Name a point, in the entire Spurs history under Duncan, where their team and future prospects were as bad as Cleveland was when he left the first time.

kdspurman
08-14-2018, 02:01 PM
Yeah I get your argument, I just don't buy it. LeBron would have been fine playing for Pops, especially when the team is winning a bunch of Chips (as a Bron/D-Rob/Pop trio would have done).

I don't know about a bunch of chips. 18 year old/rookie Bron was not better than rookie Duncan. It took him years to play defense at a high level, develop a consistent shot, etc... The staple of those Spurs teams was elite defense. So when he develops those things, Robinson is on his way out anyway, and it's working with a bunch of younger guys who needed time to develop/get acclimated like Parker/Ginobili. Do they develop into what they became if Lebron is there? All of them are ball handlers/play makers.

mngopher35
08-14-2018, 02:01 PM
All this said is LeBron always left when he didn't have the best team... well with the Spurs he'd have the best team. Seriously, he'd have walked into multiple championships, have been rebuilt into multiple championships and then been rebuilt again into multiple championships.

Name a point, in the entire Spurs history under Duncan, where their team and future prospects were as bad as Cleveland was when he left the first time.

Yup I imagine having a mix of Drob, Parker, Manu is different than Mo Williams but that is just me. It's almost like every time Cle has had legitimate talent to compete they could put around him Lebron has been there leading the way. We have a 4 year stretch where they were like the worst team in the nba over the span and now when they have Klove/Sexton against Curry/Klay/Durant/Green/Cousins. These are the times he has not been on the Cavs in his career, when they weren't even remotely close to others around the league (first time it was Mo/aging Jamison/Varejao compared to Pau/Bynum/Artest/Odom or KG/Pierce/Allen/Rondo).

That just wouldn't happen on the Spurs AND that's without getting to Pop and a great coach/system on top

Hawkeye15
08-14-2018, 02:02 PM
I disagree. If Duncan is drafted onto the Cavs in 2003 I don't know if he's a Cav for life, he may be, he may not be, but if LeBron is drafted onto the Spurs in 1998 he is a Spur for life.

no way Duncan sticks around. The ONLY reason Lebron came back is it is his homestate. But it's not worth arguing hypotheticals to death is what I mean.

No star, is sticking around in a small market team that has a terrible front office.

Hawkeye15
08-14-2018, 02:04 PM
97 fwiw.. But there's no way to say that. That Spurs culture would be completely different, and who knows if it's one Lebron would want to stay in. Especially with how strict Pop is and the way they tried to emphasize no player is bigger than the team, etc... Lebron operates a little differently

do we really believe that LeBron becomes THE offense under Pops though? Easy for that idiot Mike Brown to develop LeBron into the player with the most personal responsibility in the history of basketball nightly, he was too stupid to run a play and had zero talent around LeBron worth taking the ball away from him. But damn right Pops would have developed him a bit differently. Though with a player of LeBron's talents, you want the ball in their hands as much as possible obviously. Bigs are different.

valade16
08-14-2018, 02:16 PM
I don't know about a bunch of chips. 18 year old/rookie Bron was not better than rookie Duncan. It took him years to play defense at a high level, develop a consistent shot, etc... The staple of those Spurs teams was elite defense. So when he develops those things, Robinson is on his way out anyway, and it's working with a bunch of younger guys who needed time to develop/get acclimated like Parker/Ginobili. Do they develop into what they became if Lebron is there? All of them are ball handlers/play makers.

18 year old Bron no... 19 year old Bron? Pretty close (there's an argument Bron was better). Not to mention, 19 year old Bron was a better scorer than Duncan, meaning D-Rob has to carry less of an offensive role and can focus more on defense.

Not to mention, we're conveniently only mentioning Popovich when it's negative to Bron. You're telling me Pop can't help Bron develop or play defense and can't come up with a team around Bron/D-Rob that would win titles? I think he could.

Hawkeye15
08-14-2018, 02:26 PM
18 year old Bron no... 19 year old Bron? Pretty close (there's an argument Bron was better). Not to mention, 19 year old Bron was a better scorer than Duncan, meaning D-Rob has to carry less of an offensive role and can focus more on defense.

Not to mention, we're conveniently only mentioning Popovich when it's negative to Bron. You're telling me Pop can't help Bron develop or play defense and can't come up with a team around Bron/D-Rob that would win titles? I think he could.

we saw what LeBron became under terrible coaches. Imagine him having a great coach from day 1.

ewing
08-14-2018, 02:38 PM
we saw what LeBron became under terrible coaches. Imagine him having a great coach from day 1.

Jesus you really have a hard on for acting like LeBron overcame all such odds.

Hawkeye15
08-14-2018, 02:50 PM
Jesus you really have a hard on for acting like LeBron overcame all such odds.

or that he wasn't given the best case scenario like some of the HOF'ers given the "he is soooo loyal" tag get.

If he had stayed in Cleveland, and never won a title (likely considering their FO), is he all clear in your book?

valade16
08-14-2018, 03:00 PM
Another way to look at this is if you were a superstar player getting drafted, which situation would you most want to get drafted into and which would you least want to get drafted into?

Kareem's situation?
LeBron's situation?
Duncan's situation?
Shaq's situation?
Hakeem's situation?
Magic's situation?

ewing
08-14-2018, 03:04 PM
or that he wasn't given the best case scenario like some of the HOF'ers given the "he is soooo loyal" tag get.

If he had stayed in Cleveland, and never won a title (likely considering their FO), is he all clear in your book?

I don't know what you mean. Would I like him if that were the case? No. He'd still be an arrogant self obsessed prick, that throws his teammates under the bus all the time

Hawkeye15
08-14-2018, 03:08 PM
I don't know what you mean. Would I like him if that were the case? No. He'd still be an arrogant self obsessed prick, that throws his teammates under the bus all the time

we don't need to like athletes (or anyone for that matter). Hell you can hate him for whatever reason you like, up to you. But we can't let our annoyance with an athlete undermine what they are as an athlete.

ewing
08-14-2018, 03:12 PM
Another way to look at this is if you were a superstar player getting drafted, which situation would you most want to get drafted into and which would you least want to get drafted into?

Kareem's situation?
LeBron's situation?
Duncan's situation?
Shaq's situation?
Hakeem's situation?
Magic's situation?

That's not another way to look at it though. It's something totally separate. Yes Duncan got drafted into a better situation and may have left a different team. However Tim Duncan was a good teammate who never threw his teammates under the bus, did not dedicate his teams style of play/castrate coaches , or strong arm management into short sighted personal decisions. I don't think that changes if he was drafted by a different team. I don't think it changes for LeBron either. Does LeBron let SA get rid of Steven Jackson for an unproven Manu, does he let them trade G Hill for the number 17 pick that becomes KL. Does he force them into bad signings when they come up short or bad resigning when they win?

ewing
08-14-2018, 03:15 PM
we don't need to like athletes (or anyone for that matter). Hell you can hate him for whatever reason you like, up to you. But we can't let our annoyance with an athlete undermine what they are as an athlete.

I'm not LeBron is the better player but he is also more likely to not play the good solider like Tim Duncan.

valade16
08-14-2018, 03:23 PM
That's not another way to look at it though. It's something totally separate. Yes Duncan got drafted into a better situation and may have left a different team. However Tim Duncan was a good teammate who never threw his teammates under the bus, did not dedicate his teams style of play/castrate coaches , or strong arm management into short sighted personal decisions. I don't think that changes if he was drafted by a different team. I don't think it changes for LeBron either. Does LeBron let SA get rid of Steven Jackson for an unproven Manu, does he let them trade G Hill for the number 17 pick that becomes KL. Does he force them into bad signings when they come up short or bad resigning when they win?

If they're winning championship? No, I don't think he does any of those.

I also think you're putting the cart before the horse in a lot of instances. Imagine you go to Cleveland and the first GM decision you see is them doing a handshake deal with your 2nd best player who immediately bolts in FA. What sort of confidence level are you going to have with that GM?

I mean, you are sitting here talking about how bad LeBron is but you never want to address the elephant in the room: Cleveland's GM and Coach were terrible. Do you think Cleveland's GM makes better moves if they had drafted any other superstar but Bron there? Doubtful. Because them being trash was not a result of LeBron, they were just trash GMs.

Hawkeye15
08-14-2018, 03:31 PM
I'm not LeBron is the better player but he is also more likely to not play the good solider like Tim Duncan.

yeah they couldn't be any different. LeBron has always come across as a "poor me" person, he just sucks at speaking. Duncan was fortunate enough to not be someone the media cared about, and he rarely spoke at all regardless, and frankly the media and fans get sick of consistency, and the Spurs were the model of it. But, it is a lot easier to sit idly by when your front office has earned your trust. Ya know? How long are you going to sit there and do nothing, while watching your FO make mistake, after mistake? All the while you see some of your peers playing for FO's that are sooooooo much better. Top all that off with the fact you can't take a crap without the media peeking under the stall. Life for LeBron is different than any other athlete dude. Much of that is his doing, but much of it isn't...

Chronz
08-14-2018, 04:13 PM
All this said is LeBron always left when he didn't have the best team... well with the Spurs he'd have the best team. Seriously, he'd have walked into multiple championships, have been rebuilt into multiple championships and then been rebuilt again into multiple championships.

Name a point, in the entire Spurs history under Duncan, where their team and future prospects were as bad as Cleveland was when he left the first time.
Yeah at that point the brand talk changes

Chronz
08-14-2018, 04:18 PM
Jesus you really have a hard on for acting like LeBron overcame all such odds.
Show us a similar level of carry

Chronz
08-14-2018, 04:28 PM
If he almost left pop, why wouldn't he leave silas?

ewing
08-14-2018, 06:36 PM
If they're winning championship? No, I don't think he does any of those.

I also think you're putting the cart before the horse in a lot of instances. Imagine you go to Cleveland and the first GM decision you see is them doing a handshake deal with your 2nd best player who immediately bolts in FA. What sort of confidence level are you going to have with that GM?

I mean, you are sitting here talking about how bad LeBron is but you never want to address the elephant in the room: Cleveland's GM and Coach were terrible. Do you think Cleveland's GM makes better moves if they had drafted any other superstar but Bron there? Doubtful. Because them being trash was not a result of LeBron, they were just trash GMs.

Well I think he does. I think they win a title and next year you have Corey Joseph locked up for 5 years and 80 million


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JordansBulls
08-14-2018, 06:55 PM
Tim Duncan. Led franchise to 5 titles. The other guys had to be traded in order to win titles or join forces with players who were already proven as the man.

valade16
08-14-2018, 07:13 PM
Well I think he does. I think they win a title and next year you have Corey Joseph locked up for 5 years and 80 million

On the Spurs that would be fine, because they'd just draft a 2nd round pick or late 1st round pick who would go on to be one of the best players in the league and get to control their rights.

Chronz
08-14-2018, 08:32 PM
Well I think he does. I think they win a title and next year you have Corey Joseph locked up for 5 years and 80 million


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Cavs had no options, bron got them the title in exchange. Fair trade

nastynice
08-14-2018, 08:35 PM
Tim Duncan. Led franchise to 5 titles. The other guys had to be traded in order to win titles or join forces with players who were already proven as the man.

Damn, David robinson getting no respect!

ewing
08-14-2018, 09:05 PM
Cavs had no options, bron got them the title in exchange. Fair trade

That’s my point


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Chronz
08-14-2018, 10:38 PM
That’s my point


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You have none, spurs would have options and a track record. Incomparable to the cavs

Heediot
08-14-2018, 11:51 PM
All this said is LeBron always left when he didn't have the best team... well with the Spurs he'd have the best team. Seriously, he'd have walked into multiple championships, have been rebuilt into multiple championships and then been rebuilt again into multiple championships.

Name a point, in the entire Spurs history under Duncan, where their team and future prospects were as bad as Cleveland was when he left the first time.

No guarantees things play out the way all y'all are projecting. In Duncan's rookie season, Pops was on the hot seat playing for his job. He was a gm/front office guy when Bob Hill was the head coach. He took over after after Hill got the axe. Duncan saved his job. No guarantees a rookie 18-19 year old Lebron and declining Admiral saves Pops.

In terms of Pops coaching style, he comes from the mold of other Eastern European coaches who are in your face and hold people accountable and would yell the **** out of you whether you like it or not. Pops style only works if he has clout or if he has low maintenance players like Duncan. Pops gained clout by winning with Duncan and Duncan allowing him to to be himself as coach. I follow the euro club ball scene just as much as the nba. David Blatt is just the same as pops , he's the type that would roast you anytime anywhere in Europe. Once he came over and coached Lebron, he had to change his style because he had no clout. Bron got his *** fired because he didn't respect the guy. No guarantees a young Lebron will respect pops either and that the relationship would be smooth. It's easy to respect Pops now, because he proved his worth, but if Bron was drafted in 98, Pops was an unknown with no clout.

I don't see any guarantees Pops stays as Bron's coach earlier in his career, and the two may not have had the chance build something given Bron's history with trying to strong arm coaches. Bron and Admiral were also chokers early in their careers, no guarantee they win a ship early on either. Avery Johnson and Sean Elliot may not have been the best fits beside Bron either. Prime Shaq and Young Kobe, with a better cast > Declining Admiral and Young Bron to boot, which would also make winning a ship early on not so easy as y'all are projecting.

No guarantees that the Spurs would have built the best team with a young Lebron, declining Admiral, a fiery Pops with no clout on the hot seat and a Juggernaut on the rise in LA.

Heediot
08-15-2018, 12:25 AM
If they're winning championship? No, I don't think he does any of those.

I also think you're putting the cart before the horse in a lot of instances. Imagine you go to Cleveland and the first GM decision you see is them doing a handshake deal with your 2nd best player who immediately bolts in FA. What sort of confidence level are you going to have with that GM?

I mean, you are sitting here talking about how bad LeBron is but you never want to address the elephant in the room: Cleveland's GM and Coach were terrible. Do you think Cleveland's GM makes better moves if they had drafted any other superstar but Bron there? Doubtful. Because them being trash was not a result of LeBron, they were just trash GMs.

Good or Bad coach and front office, no guarantees LeBron stays either way. I can see the point about people making a case that Duncan might not have stayed in Cleveland, but I don't think Duncan bolts Riley, his bff Wade, and another homeboy in Bosh. I'm also going with what happened and Duncan has proven his loyalty and the definition of ultimate employee like ewing said, and ultimate team-mate. What transpired is 20 years with the same team, 5 titles, low key, low maintenace, no drama. The teams that drafted Bron, Shaq, KAJ would take that over what they got out of those other guys in a heart beat.

ewing
08-15-2018, 08:11 AM
You have none, spurs would have options and a track record. Incomparable to the cavs

I think I do


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kdspurman
08-15-2018, 10:08 AM
Good or Bad coach and front office, no guarantees LeBron stays either way. I can see the point about people making a case that Duncan might not have stayed in Cleveland, but I don't think Duncan bolts Riley, his bff Wade, and another homeboy in Bosh. I'm also going with what happened and Duncan has proven his loyalty and the definition of ultimate employee like ewing said, and ultimate team-mate. What transpired is 20 years with the same team, 5 titles, low key, low maintenace, no drama. The teams that drafted Bron, Shaq, KAJ would take that over what they got out of those other guys in a heart beat.

People think just because Duncan was in a good situation, that anyone would be able to go in there and be a Spur for life if they were in his place, not realizing the amount of sacrifice he gave up for the better of the team. Whether it's his personal stats, or money, or playing time, etc...

Not a lot of these guys could keep their ego in check like he did. Very few could in fact. So to say Lebron would stay in SA his whole career because they have a good FO is crazy to me. People don't think Lebron would want to be this huge marketable giant, a guy who came out of HS as the king? I don't know if that happens in SA tbqh.

Hawkeye15
08-15-2018, 10:35 AM
this entire argument has turned to a personality theory.

Facts-LeBron was drafted to a crap team
Duncan was drafted to an amazing team

the rest doesn't matter.

Heediot
08-15-2018, 10:36 AM
People think just because Duncan was in a good situation, that anyone would be able to go in there and be a Spur for life if they were in his place, not realizing the amount of sacrifice he gave up for the better of the team. Whether it's his personal stats, or money, or playing time, etc...

Not a lot of these guys could keep their ego in check like he did. Very few could in fact. So to say Lebron would stay in SA his whole career because they have a good FO is crazy to me. People don't think Lebron would want to be this huge marketable giant, a guy who came out of HS as the king? I don't know if that happens in SA tbqh.

Yeah Duncan sacrificed a tonne of money in his mid 30's and beyond. I don't think Bron would do the same.
Duncan allowed his team mates to flourish and was more then willing to take a back seat. He let pop develop a system and adjust and tinker the system. Like you said he let the situation shine, Pops schems shine over his own needs. He let Manu and Tony shineBron otoh has always wanted control whether it's be on the court with playing Bron ball and or off the court with his personell demands. Their personalities and approach to life/ball/business are way different, which IMO needs to be considered in terms of how much one is willing to give to a team in the overall scope of things.

Hawkeye15
08-15-2018, 10:42 AM
I would like to point out, Duncan sacrificing money is great, it is. But he resided in San Antonio, TX.

https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/San-Antonio-TX/fsba,fsbo,new_lt/pmf,pf_pt/80020425_zpid/6915_rid/3-_beds/810000-1450000_price/3243-5805_mp/globalrelevanceex_sort/29.957909,-97.830506,28.912615,-99.306794_rect/9_zm/

how much you think that is in CA? NY? Chicago?

No state income taxes. Cheap as **** to live. No media up your *** 24/7.

So, what did he really sacrifice? He made $243,000,000 and lived in arguably the cheapest city you possibly can in the NBA.

Heediot
08-15-2018, 10:42 AM
this entire argument has turned to a personality theory.

Facts-LeBron was drafted to a crap team
Duncan was drafted to an amazing team

the rest doesn't matter.

Facts Duncan gave more to his franchise as a first overall pick vs. Bron, KAJ, Shaq. Magic would be one guy I can concede to as giving more to his team vs. Duncan though, but its still debatable. In terms of sheer talent yes Bron would be picked first overall. With other factors being included I would take 20 years of Duncan's contribution vs. 10-11 years, on and off of Drama boy.

Hawkeye15
08-15-2018, 10:44 AM
Facts Duncan gave more to his franchise as a first overall pick vs. Bron, KAJ, Shaq. Magic would be one guy I can concede to as giving more to his team vs. Duncan though, but its still debatable. In terms of sheer talent yes Bron would be picked first overall. With other factors being included I would take 20 years of Duncan's contribution vs. 10-11 years, on and off of Drama boy.

give and take dude. Your franchise gives you Mo Williams, you bolt. They give you Manu, Parker, Pops, etc, you stay. Again, this entire conversation has turned into theory. If a person can't see the appeal for staying with the Spurs, I can't explain how it works for them. IQ isn't high enough to get it..

Heediot
08-15-2018, 10:45 AM
I would like to point out, Duncan sacrificing money is great, it is. But he resided in San Antonio, TX.

https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/San-Antonio-TX/fsba,fsbo,new_lt/pmf,pf_pt/80020425_zpid/6915_rid/3-_beds/810000-1450000_price/3243-5805_mp/globalrelevanceex_sort/29.957909,-97.830506,28.912615,-99.306794_rect/9_zm/

how much you think that is in CA? NY? Chicago?

No state income taxes. Cheap as **** to live. No media up your *** 24/7.

So, what did he really sacrifice? He made $243,000,000 and lived in arguably the cheapest city you possibly can in the NBA.

Just look at the clothes the guys wears lol. Even with all the loot, his perspective and view on life makes him the person and team mate he really was. His sacrifice goes beyond money, his character and who is shows up when needed. The proof is in the pudding.

Heediot
08-15-2018, 10:48 AM
give and take dude. Your franchise gives you Mo Williams, you bolt. They give you Manu, Parker, Pops, etc, you stay. Again, this entire conversation has turned into theory. If a person can't see the appeal for staying with the Spurs, I can't explain how it works for them. IQ isn't high enough to get it..

LOL, why does he leave a ripe situation in Miami with a proven front office, his best friends, and one of the best places to live in accordance with how he likes it off the court with his flashy/glamourish lifestyle?

The guy left Bosh/Wade/Riley, it's no guarantee he sticks with TP/Manu/Pop.

kdspurman
08-15-2018, 10:51 AM
this entire argument has turned to a personality theory.

Facts-LeBron was drafted to a crap team
Duncan was drafted to an amazing team

the rest doesn't matter.

haha basically

kdspurman
08-15-2018, 10:54 AM
Just look at the clothes the guys wears lol. Even with all the loot, his perspective and view on life makes him the person and team mate he really was. His sacrifice goes beyond money, his character and who is shows up when needed. The proof is in the pudding.

Yea, TD could have made a lot more than he did, he could've marketed himself more , etc... But he's a different kind of player/person. He's very different than other superstars, and it's one of the things that made him incredibly special. Pop has alluded to that many times, and he and RC value high character guys very much.

ewing
08-15-2018, 10:54 AM
LOL, why does he leave a ripe situation in Miami with a proven front office, his best friends, and one of the best places to live in accordance with how he likes it off the court with his flashy/glamourish lifestyle?

The guy left Bosh/Wade/Riley, it's no guarantee he sticks with TP/Manu/Pop.

LeBron is above being accountable for anything he has ever done or said. Its that simple. The guy clowns his own teammates on social media all the time and but its never LeBron its his teammates, the FO, the coaching staff.... He is a great player but and a **** teammate.

Hawkeye15
08-15-2018, 11:11 AM
Just look at the clothes the guys wears lol. Even with all the loot, his perspective and view on life makes him the person and team mate he really was. His sacrifice goes beyond money, his character and who is shows up when needed. The proof is in the pudding.

he should run for office

Hawkeye15
08-15-2018, 11:16 AM
Yea, TD could have made a lot more than he did, he could've marketed himself more , etc... But he's a different kind of player/person. He's very different than other superstars, and it's one of the things that made him incredibly special. Pop has alluded to that many times, and he and RC value high character guys very much.

precisely. Duncan is like no other star we have seen. Usually people that meek off the court, aren't so damn competitive on the court. He is an outlier as far as humans go. Why a guys personality matters here, I don't know. MJ is considered the greatest ever, and by all accounts, was beyond difficult to deal with. He would be crucified in today's social media and information era.

This entire thread is supposed to be your answer to who is the greatest #1 pick. How a person determines that is up to them. LeBron is the best individual player available to pick here, but I can get onboard with a person viewing it as, "what did they give the franchise that drafted them" if that is their perspective. It better have bee for the last 20 threads on this too, otherwise they are cherrypicking here. Where we get into a senseless argument is, if LeBron would have been picked by a capable team, then what? Or vice versa, if Duncan is picked by a ****** team, then what? But in reality, none of that matters.

Hawkeye15
08-15-2018, 11:16 AM
LeBron is above being accountable for anything he has ever done or said. Its that simple. The guy clowns his own teammates on social media all the time and but its never LeBron its his teammates, the FO, the coaching staff.... He is a great player but and a **** teammate.

so was Jordan. Many times, the greatest at anything are nearly insufferable to deal with.

Heediot
08-15-2018, 11:21 AM
he should run for office

I think Bron is the best player and should be voted number one based on that, if that's one's criteria for best first pick. It's respectable and I can see where the stance is coming from.

I take a different view/angle. Due to How Duncan did it.

For me life is more then just how good you are and what you achieve, although Duncan achieved as well. It's also about relationships and the harmony you bring to people. Duncan was amazing with creating healthy and harmonious relationships. He helped bring the best out of people and situations for something bigger then himself, which to me is what ultimately elevates the human race.

Duncan combined on court success doing the right way, which on a personal/subjective level counts for a lot to me.

Hawkeye15
08-15-2018, 11:26 AM
I think Bron is the best player and should be voted number one based on that, if that's one's criteria for best first pick. It's respectable and I can see where the stance is coming from.

I take a different view/angle. Due to How Duncan did it.

For me life is more then just how good you are and what you achieve, although Duncan achieved as well. It's also about relationships and the harmony you bring to people. Duncan was amazing with creating healthy and harmonious relationships. He helped bring the best out of people and situations for something bigger then himself, which to me is what ultimately elevates the human race.

Duncan combined on court success doing the right way, which on a personal/subjective level counts for a lot to me.

and I get all that. I alluded above your post as to why I can understand the different POV.

But, that also means, you likely don't rank Jordan #1 ever. Because he was not a good teammate. He was not kind to his FO. He was not kind to his GM. Unless you are removing this convo entirely from "best players" ranking.

Duncan is a once in a lifetime personality, and he was made for SA just as much as SA was made for him. I personally think he would have bolted Cleveland the second he could have, but that is just me.

We know what we got from LeBron, and Duncan being #1 picks. But we don't know what we would have gotten had they been drafted by different teams.

Heediot
08-15-2018, 11:40 AM
and I get all that. I alluded above your post as to why I can understand the different POV.

But, that also means, you likely don't rank Jordan #1 ever. Because he was not a good teammate. He was not kind to his FO. He was not kind to his GM. Unless you are removing this convo entirely from "best players" ranking.

Duncan is a once in a lifetime personality, and he was made for SA just as much as SA was made for him. I personally think he would have bolted Cleveland the second he could have, but that is just me.

We know what we got from LeBron, and Duncan being #1 picks. But we don't know what we would have gotten had they been drafted by different teams.

I think Jordan and LeBron are better players. I would rather date the Super hot chic with a pleasing and delightful personality for 20 years over a mind blowing chic on a emotional roller coaster for 10-15 years. To put it that way lolol. Your getting 3-6 rings either way.

Jordan was a **** head in ways, but he embraced his personality. Bron OTOH, acts are morally righteous and tries to paint himself as this selfless hero. I don't like Kobe on the court as much as Bron, and Kobe is a dick too. But like Jordan , at least he keeps it true to himself and doesn't try to paint a perceived public image.

Hawkeye15
08-15-2018, 11:43 AM
I think Jordan and LeBron are better players. I would rather date the Super hot chic with a pleasing and delightful personality for 20 years over a mind blowing chic on a emotional roller coaster for 10-15 years. To put it that way lolol. Your getting 3-6 rings either way.

Jordan was a **** head in ways, but he embraced his personality. Bron OTOH, acts are morally righteous and tries to paint himself as this selfless hero. I don't like Kobe on the court as much as Bron, and Kobe is a dick too. But like Jordan , at least he keeps it true to himself and doesn't try to paint a perceived public image.

for sure.

Jordan was a cocky dick and owned it. LeBron is a terrible speaker who comes off as "poor me" constantly, and has a mic in his face all the time, so sure, he is not easy to be a fan of.

numba1CHANGsta
08-16-2018, 02:11 AM
4 of the 5 guys voted are Lakers lmao

Vinylman
08-16-2018, 08:47 AM
Rings matter

Hawkeye15
08-16-2018, 09:18 AM
4 of the 5 guys voted are Lakers lmao

and they picked only 1 of them. Shows the power of the city/franchise. Hell even the one they picked forced his way there haha

Jeffy25
08-17-2018, 03:42 PM
So LeBron wins the 1st pick

Here is our finalized draft

1. LeBron James - Cavaliers - 2003
2. Bill Russell - Hawks (traded to Celtics) - 1956
3. Michael Jordan - Bulls - 1984
4. Chris Paul - Hornets - 2005
5. Kevin Garnett - Wolves - 1995
6. Larry Bird - Celtics - 1978
7. Stephen Curry - Warriors - 2009
8. Willis Reed - Knicks - 1964
9. Dirk Nowitzki - Bucks (traded to Mavs) - 1998
10. Paul Pierce - Celtics - 1998
11. Reggie Miller - Pacers - 1987
12. Julius Erving - Bucks (but played in ABA) - 1972
13. Kobe Bryant - Hornets (traded to Lakers) - 1996
14. Clyde Drexler - Blazers - 1983
15. Steve Nash - Suns - 1996
16. John Stockton - Jazz - 1984
17. Shawn Kemp - Sonics/Thunder - 1989
18. Joe Dumars - Pistons - 1985
19. Tiny Archibald - Royals/Kings - 1970
20. Larry Nance - Suns - 1981
21. Michael Finley - Suns - 1995
22. Norm Nixon - Lakers - 1977
23. Alex English - Bucks - 1976
24. Sam Cassell - Rockets - 1993
25. Mark Price - Mavs (traded to Cavs) - 1986
26. Vlade Divac - Lakers - 1989
27. Dennis Rodman - Pistons - 1986
28. Tony Parker - Spurs - 2001
29. Dennis Johnson - Sonics - 1976
30. Jimmy Butler - Bulls - 2011

How are draft laid out
1956 – 1
1964 – 1
1970 - 1
1972 – 1
1976 – 2
1977 – 1
1978 – 1
1981 - 1
1983 - 1
1984 – 2
1985 – 1
1986 - 2
1987 - 1
1989 – 2
1993 – 1
1995 – 2
1996 – 2
1998 – 2
2001 – 1
2003 – 1
2005 – 1
2009 – 1
2011 - 1

Teams with the most picks
Cavs – 2
Celtics – 3
Bulls – 2
Hornets – 1
Wolves – 1
Warriors – 1
Knicks – 1
Mavs – 1
Pacers – 1
Bucks – 2
Lakers – 3
Blazers – 1
Suns – 2
Jazz – 1
Sonics – 2
Pistons – 2
Kings – 1
Rockets – 1
Spurs - 1

JordansBulls
08-21-2018, 07:16 PM
this entire argument has turned to a personality theory.

Facts-LeBron was drafted to a crap team
Duncan was drafted to an amazing team

the rest doesn't matter.
How so? Lebron came to a team that had an allstar the year before he was drafted and also Carlos Boozer who became a superstar. Duncan came to a team that had no stars the year before he was drafted.

valade16
08-21-2018, 07:24 PM
How so? Lebron came to a team that had an allstar the year before he was drafted and also Carlos Boozer who became a superstar. Duncan came to a team that had no stars the year before he was drafted.

Unfortunately due to Cleveland's incompetence Carlos Boozer became a superstar for a different team. As for Duncan going to a team that had no stars the year before, that's because D-Rob was hurt that year. David Robinson is better than any player LeBron has ever played with except maybe first couple years Wade.

JordansBulls
08-21-2018, 07:29 PM
Unfortunately due to Cleveland's incompetence Carlos Boozer became a superstar for a different team.

No it was because of Lebron. Players start to suck playing with Lebron and don't stay nor become stars around him. It is why Boozer became a star after he left to another team.

mightybosstone
08-21-2018, 07:39 PM
No it was because of Lebron. Players start to suck playing with Lebron and don't stay nor become stars around him. It is why Boozer became a star after he left to another team.

Yeah, I'm sure Boozer breaking out after he left Cleveland had nothing to do that he was only 21 and 22 years old those first two seasons of his career as a Cav.

:eyebrow:

JordansBulls
08-21-2018, 08:13 PM
Yeah, I'm sure Boozer breaking out after he left Cleveland had nothing to do that he was only 21 and 22 years old those first two seasons of his career as a Cav.

:eyebrow:

Considering what we know, no player becomes a star player playing with Lebron. They are stars before or after Lebron. Show we players who were basically bench players with bench numbers that became a star next to him?

FlashBolt
08-22-2018, 02:04 AM
Considering what we know, no player becomes a star player playing with Lebron. They are stars before or after Lebron. Show we players who were basically bench players with bench numbers that became a star next to him?

You are so very clearly frightened and upset that LeBron is constantly on the GOAT discussion that you reach for the stars in your arguments. LeBron made Mo Williams an NBA All-Star. Please stop your nonsense.

Hawkeye15
08-22-2018, 09:45 AM
How so? Lebron came to a team that had an allstar the year before he was drafted and also Carlos Boozer who became a superstar. Duncan came to a team that had no stars the year before he was drafted.

do you even believe the crap you post the last 5-ish years? You used to be a good poster. It became very clear long ago, that the moment you suspected LeBron was going to catch Jordan, you changed your entire style of posting. You alone unfortunately can't affect the fact that LeBron James is on Jordan's level. Sorry for the bad news.

I mean, you actually spent a lot of posts arguing that LeBron had all star help with the corpse of Shaq on his roster at one point. Like cmon

mightybosstone
08-22-2018, 01:34 PM
Considering what we know, no player becomes a star player playing with Lebron. They are stars before or after Lebron. Show we players who were basically bench players with bench numbers that became a star next to him?

Dude, this might be one of the worst takes I've ever seen on PSD. Reread what you just wrote:


Show we players who were basically bench players with bench numbers that became a star next to him?

You're criticizing Lebron for something that LITERALLY NOBODY is capable of doing! If a role player is coming off the bench for 15-20 minutes a night, he's probably playing that role for a reason. You can't point to a bench guy who played with MJ or Magic or Kobe or anyone else who were suddenly made star players merely by playing next to them. NOBODY is that good.

I honestly think you only come on PSD now to trash Lebron, prop up Jordan and provide homer takes on anything having to do with the Bulls.

WaDe03
08-22-2018, 01:54 PM
Hey guys let’s all get along! This topic should’ve ended the day the thread came up, anyone who has a brain knows this is LeBron. Love you guys!

Jeffy25
08-22-2018, 05:09 PM
Dude, this might be one of the worst takes I've ever seen on PSD. Reread what you just wrote:



You're criticizing Lebron for something that LITERALLY NOBODY is capable of doing! If a role player is coming off the bench for 15-20 minutes a night, he's probably playing that role for a reason. You can't point to a bench guy who played with MJ or Magic or Kobe or anyone else who were suddenly made star players merely by playing next to them. NOBODY is that good.

I honestly think you only come on PSD now to trash Lebron, prop up Jordan and provide homer takes on anything having to do with the Bulls.

And he does it in the most insane arguments, almost like it's intentional.

The idea of doing this based on reality left a long time ago.

There are legit arguments for Jordan over LeBron, but he goes down these rabbit holes that are nonsensical and illogical....almost as if they are on purpose (I doubt he believes what he actually say)

I have a friend like this on Facebook, who hates Curry so much that he tried to argue that Gilbert Arenas was better than Curry, would lock him on defense, and was as good of a shooter as Curry. He's just trolling, he can't possibly actually believe that nonsense.

FlashBolt
08-23-2018, 02:37 AM
When I first joined PSD, I kept hearing about a poster named JoB. I figured out who that was, eventually. His posts were very decent in non-Bulls or non-LeBron topics but when it came to Bulls or LeBron topics, you could tell this guy was just a troll. And when you consider that LeBron has done nothing negative to him (outside of torching his Bulls and ruining their best years post-Jordan), you come to accept that the only reason he is trolling is because he has to convince himself that Jordan, not LeBron, is the GOAT. And that to me is pretty telling of his character.

valade16
08-23-2018, 12:41 PM
No it was because of Lebron. Players start to suck playing with Lebron and don't stay nor become stars around him. It is why Boozer became a star after he left to another team.

Boozer actually played worse the year after he left Bron. He had to recover from not having Bron to get back to as good as he was.

JAZZNC
08-23-2018, 02:34 PM
Referring to Boozer as a "super star" immediately renders anything you said before or after useless. Ugh...

FlashBolt
08-23-2018, 02:36 PM
Referring to Boozer as a "super star" immediately renders anything you said before or after useless. Ugh...

I was thinking the same thing. When the hell was Boozer a superstar?

Jeffy25
08-23-2018, 02:37 PM
why didn't 19 year old LeBron and 22 year old Boozer take the league by storm?

Hawkeye15
08-23-2018, 02:38 PM
again, he argued that LeBron had all star help when the corpses of Shaq and Big Z played in Cleveland.

Hawkeye15
08-23-2018, 02:40 PM
When I first joined PSD, I kept hearing about a poster named JoB. I figured out who that was, eventually. His posts were very decent in non-Bulls or non-LeBron topics but when it came to Bulls or LeBron topics, you could tell this guy was just a troll. And when you consider that LeBron has done nothing negative to him (outside of torching his Bulls and ruining their best years post-Jordan), you come to accept that the only reason he is trolling is because he has to convince himself that Jordan, not LeBron, is the GOAT. And that to me is pretty telling of his character.

He was a good poster too. Around 5 years ago, it all changed. Anything LeBron, and is was just drivel. He MUST protect Jordan's legacy

FlashBolt
08-23-2018, 02:42 PM
why didn't 19 year old LeBron and 22 year old Boozer take the league by storm?

They hated LeBron, honestly. From the earlier reports pre-debut of LeBron, his teammates thought there were better players at his position on the team and that LeBron was simply there to help them get better shots. Kinda laughable how it turned out.

valade16
08-23-2018, 02:53 PM
why didn't 19 year old LeBron and 22 year old Boozer take the league by storm?

Why didn't 22 year old MJ take the league by storm?

Hawkeye15
08-23-2018, 04:08 PM
Why didn't 22 year old MJ take the league by storm?

he did haha

valade16
08-23-2018, 04:24 PM
he did haha

His continual first round exits say otherwise.

Hawkeye15
08-23-2018, 04:25 PM
His continual first round exits say otherwise.

cmon dude. He had literally zero help his first few years. At age 22, he stuck the C's with 63 in the playoffs.

Perhaps I am missing some point you are trying to make with another poster..

valade16
08-23-2018, 04:31 PM
cmon dude. He had literally zero help his first few years. At age 22, he stuck the C's with 63 in the playoffs.

Perhaps I am missing some point you are trying to make with another poster..

The point I'm trying to make is if we're talking about individual success to determine whether someone took the league by storm both MJ and LeBron clearly did that. If we're talking about team success, then neither did that. Now there is a reason for that (both had crap teams to start).

Hawkeye15
08-23-2018, 04:35 PM
The point I'm trying to make is if we're talking about individual success to determine whether someone took the league by storm both MJ and LeBron clearly did that. If we're talking about team success, then neither did that. Now there is a reason for that (both had crap teams to start).

oh for sure. Unless you get a TD scenario (injuries are literally the ONLY reason your drafting team had a shot at getting you), typically, #1 picks go to terrible teams that need far more than 1 player to be good again..

JAZZNC
08-23-2018, 09:43 PM
oh for sure. Unless you get a TD scenario (injuries are literally the ONLY reason your drafting team had a shot at getting you), typically, #1 picks go to terrible teams that need far more than 1 player to be good again..

Especially when that 1 player is going as hell. Just ain't gonna work out but you certainly could tell right away that LeBron/MJ were friggin legit.

voyager77
09-06-2018, 02:09 PM
Lebron or Magic