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View Full Version : OKC fans, defend Russell Westbrook



Scoots
07-27-2018, 04:03 PM
I'm not an OKC fan but I can appreciate that Westbrook is athletically the most impressive point I've ever seen. He can do pretty much anything on the floor and do it faster and more visually impressively than pretty much anybody his size ever.

But has his game been getting better?

Does he play within an offense?

Does he make his teammates better?

This is not a troll so please don't say it is.

Htownballa1622
07-27-2018, 04:33 PM
"But has his game been getting better?" Yes he getz bettr. Moar tripel dubelzzz!

"Does he play within an offense?" YES! The run az fast as I can into your chest and fall and shoot or pass offense. Battering ramz offence!

"Does he make his teammates better?" YES! Tripel dubelzzz! He gets rebounds Steven Adams doesn't want to save Adams' energy!

:D

WhiteShadow42
07-27-2018, 04:48 PM
Not an OKC fan but it's funny that he averaged a triple double and his team did not get past the first round. I think he is getting better, but his issue is finishing games. I think he tries too hard and actually hurts the team. When it really counts, he doesn't perform his best. Players like Magic, Bird, and Kobe played their best when it was needed to most.

Man, seeing Westbrook live from the 4th row at Staples Center and few years back (birthday present from my wife), was incredible. I have never seen someone move so explosively as I have with him. My wife is a doctor and she jokingly said that she would love to examine him with all those fast twitch muscles. I personally think she likes him beyond a patient doctor relationship but I digress.

kobe4thewinbang
07-27-2018, 05:36 PM
I've generally liked OKC as a team. They screwed up for sure by trading Harden, but to be fair, he did suck in the Finals. I still can't believe they lost a 3-1 lead against the pre-Durant Warriors.

Anyway, Westbrook is a nice player. That intensity is something else, but he definitely tries too hard and by try too hard I mean take 19 three-pointers in a playoff-exit game. That hunger to win is not synonymous with wanting to be famous and I think Skip Bayless is right in saying that maybe Russ wants to be the man without actually winning it all. He's had some terrific games, including the one I mentioned in which he had 40+ points.

So, overall? He's a good player that any team would be lucky to have. It made sense for him to be "it's all on me, I must be the savior" in the first year sans-Durant, but once he got Melo & Paul George, he's mostly to blame for their underwhelming success. That first year, most people were saying he didn't have enough shooters to pass to, which is correct.

I think he'll have a better year next season with just him and George (think Russ & KD, Part 2), but I could be wrong. OKC hasn't really done anything to improve on that shooting problem, so guess who feels behooved to shoot 3PTer after 3PTer to make up for it. Hopefully, Westbrook lets George take more than him next season.

I'll give Russ credit, though...he makes some big unexpected threes here and there. He gets too desperate sometimes, which again is probably because he doesn't perceive having enough help around him. Adams is good to score when Russ drops the ball right to him at the rim, or off a rebound/put-back, but other than George, who does Russ really have?

I tend to side with Russ on this issue, but he's not necessarily making it better with questionable play at times.

ewing
07-27-2018, 05:37 PM
No one should have to defend him. He is an incredible player who plays hard as hell and always has his teammates back. He has flaws in his game but few donít. Is he the best player in the league? No but I donít think he needs a defense for that

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basch152
07-27-2018, 05:50 PM
this is just one of many examples of why westbrook is not even remotely close to as good as his stats, and how his stat padding is actually detrimental to team success -

https://youtu.be/HYKolm75h8Y

that combined with the video where he was 1 assist away from a triple double and kept passing on wide open shots because he wanted his triple double rather than trying to win its all you need to know

steamroller
07-27-2018, 05:52 PM
Then he added two hall of famers and lost in the first round again lol.

The basketball HOF is a joke btw.


Not an OKC fan but it's funny that he averaged a triple double and his team did not get past the first round. I think he is getting better, but his issue is finishing games. I think he tries too hard and actually hurts the team. When it really counts, he doesn't perform his best. Players like Magic, Bird, and Kobe played their best when it was needed to most.

Man, seeing Westbrook live from the 4th row at Staples Center and few years back (birthday present from my wife), was incredible. I have never seen someone move so explosively as I have with him. My wife is a doctor and she jokingly said that she would love to examine him with all those fast twitch muscles. I personally think she likes him beyond a patient doctor relationship but I digress.

MygirlhatesCod
07-28-2018, 10:41 AM
I personally don't like his style of play. him and Harden are difficult to watch for me. I will say that russ is a beast and has the ability to take over games and cover ground like very few have ever. the major knock on him for me is he takes way to many shots he doesn't have to. he has the ability to create better opportunities but sometimes just loses patience. last year he took about 250 more shots than Harden and averaged 5 less points. he is way too good at creating to put himself and his team in so many unfavorable possessions.

Scoots
07-28-2018, 12:07 PM
I personally don't like his style of play. him and Harden are difficult to watch for me. I will say that russ is a beast and has the ability to take over games and cover ground like very few have ever. the major knock on him for me is he takes way to many shots he doesn't have to. he has the ability to create better opportunities but sometimes just loses patience. last year he took about 250 more shots than Harden and averaged 5 less points. he is way too good at creating to put himself and his team in so many unfavorable possessions.

With that in mind I guess it's not surprising that Harden's and Oladipo's games blossomed when they got away from Russ. And that KD wanted to get away. Maybe he is changing since PG wanted to come back?

MygirlhatesCod
07-28-2018, 12:26 PM
With that in mind I guess it's not surprising that Harden's and Oladipo's games blossomed when they got away from Russ. And that KD wanted to get away. Maybe he is changing since PG wanted to come back?

I doubt he changes. that's part of his style its what makes him take over. problem is that its a TEAM game and its nearly impossible to win that way. Russ, to me, is like a bigger version of Iverson.

Jeffy25
07-28-2018, 12:52 PM
I can't stand Westbrook, so this comes with a bias.

He is selfish, he is the worst stat padder in the game. He doesn't play within an offense, he doesn't care about defense, and has the worst basketball IQ of any 'star' in the game by a mile.

He gets by with his athleticism only.

I can't believe Paul George wanted to stay with him (a superior player, but also very dumb himself) and Westbrook is the reason no dynasties will ever, or did happen with guys like Durant, Harden, George, Odalipo, etc.

When he isn't dribbling, and the Thunder are on offense. He stands out past the 3 point line and watches and 'takes a break', then proceeds to not play defense.

Can't stand him at all. He'll never be more than a first round exit player, and I wouldn't want to play with him personally at all. If I could be a starter in OKC, or a bench player in Charlotte. I'm taking the bench role in Charlotte. I dislike him that much.


If he was a smarter player, he'd be the best player in the game. He takes so many bad shots he doesn't have to. I guarantee he runs up there without a plan every time. He'll probably say he takes what the defense gives him, but he just runs to a spot and then jumps and if he can't get the shot off, passes to a guy below him.

As athletic as he is, he could be the best player in the league. But he has a 2 cent basketball head.

Jeffy25
07-28-2018, 12:53 PM
I doubt he changes. that's part of his style its what makes him take over. problem is that its a TEAM game and its nearly impossible to win that way. Russ, to me, is like a bigger version of Iverson.

I've been saying that the last two years, same player type.

Jeffy25
07-28-2018, 12:59 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?reload=9&v=XU23Fz1T7JY

Scoots
07-28-2018, 04:21 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?reload=9&v=XU23Fz1T7JY

Pretty funny watching KD and Curry laughing at him when Adams passed the ball rather than shooting so Westbrook wouldn't get the assist.

Where are all the people who said he was the right choice for MVP 2 years ago?

IndyRealist
07-28-2018, 07:18 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?reload=9&v=XU23Fz1T7JY

This is where I point out how PSD was up in arms when I suggested over the last two years that RWB steals rebounds from his teammates.

GREATNESS ONE
07-28-2018, 07:32 PM
Pretty funny watching KD and Curry laughing at him when Adams passed the ball rather than shooting so Westbrook wouldn't get the assist.

Where are all the people who said he was the right choice for MVP 2 years ago?

He was the right choice for 2years ago. All these MVPís are hilarious, 1/2 of them should have went to Lebron.

Scoots
07-28-2018, 08:27 PM
He was the right choice for 2years ago. All these MVPís are hilarious, 1/2 of them should have went to Lebron.

I don't agree that he was the "right" choice since he was still inefficient, didn't run the team offense, and has some blatant stat padding. I do agree that LeBron should have more MVP awards, no question.

Scoots
07-28-2018, 08:28 PM
This is where I point out how PSD was up in arms when I suggested over the last two years that RWB steals rebounds from his teammates.

I'm genuinely confused with what happened to those people who didn't see it before. If I remember correctly one of their arguments was that Russ getting the board was intentional so Adams could get down court faster.

TakeYourL
07-28-2018, 08:51 PM
He was the right choice for 2years ago. All these MVPís are hilarious, 1/2 of them should have went to Lebron.

I agree with all of this.

Jamiecballer
07-28-2018, 09:18 PM
I'm genuinely confused with what happened to those people who didn't see it before. If I remember correctly one of their arguments was that Russ getting the board was intentional so Adams could get down court faster.Lolllloolllllolol

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Vee-Rex
07-28-2018, 11:57 PM
Never would I ever have dreamed that Scoots would start a troll thread.

Westbrook is a hall of famer, top 3 point guard ever. Currently #3 best player in the league right now.

1. LeBron
2. Harden
3. Westbrook
4. Leonard
5. Davis

and so on.

basch152
07-29-2018, 01:18 AM
Never would I ever have dreamed that Scoots would start a troll thread.

Westbrook is a hall of famer, top 3 point guard ever. Currently #3 best player in the league right now.

1. LeBron
2. Harden
3. Westbrook
4. Leonard
5. Davis

and so on.

https://www.roblox.com/library/62216859/Cant-tell-if-trolling

kobe4thewinbang
07-29-2018, 01:28 AM
Never would I ever have dreamed that Scoots would start a troll thread.

Westbrook is a hall of famer, top 3 point guard ever. Currently #3 best player in the league right now.

1. LeBron
2. Harden
3. Westbrook
4. Leonard
5. Davis

and so on.Strongly disagree that AD should be under Leonard and to a lesser extent under Westbrook. Also, not to stray, but how do you not have Steph or Durant on this list?

basch152
07-29-2018, 01:41 AM
Strongly disagree that AD should be under Leonard and to a lesser extent under Westbrook. Also, not to stray, but how do you not have Steph or Durant on this list?

he's trolling

Jeffy25
07-29-2018, 04:41 AM
He was the right choice for 2years ago. All these MVPís are hilarious, 1/2 of them should have went to Lebron.

LeBron should have at least 5

09-13, and you could argue 14 and 18.

Jeffy25
07-29-2018, 04:44 AM
Never would I ever have dreamed that Scoots would start a troll thread.

Westbrook is a hall of famer, top 3 point guard ever. Currently #3 best player in the league right now.

1. LeBron
2. Harden
3. Westbrook
4. Leonard
5. Davis

and so on.

How can you be a top 3 guard ever, yet third best player in the league right now?

Jamiecballer
07-29-2018, 12:48 PM
Never would I ever have dreamed that Scoots would start a troll thread.

Westbrook is a hall of famer, top 3 point guard ever. Currently #3 best player in the league right now.

1. LeBron
2. Harden
3. Westbrook
4. Leonard
5. Davis

and so on.Now you are trolling

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Vee-Rex
07-29-2018, 04:05 PM
Now you are trolling

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https://www.reactiongifs.us/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/you_got_me_breaking_bad.gif

Chronz
07-29-2018, 08:01 PM
Lolllloolllllolol

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It's a statistical certainty that the thunder score faster off rwb rebounds

ewing
07-29-2018, 08:21 PM
On the whole NBA teams have stopped hitting the offensive glass. Most rebounds are totally uncontested making individual rebounding totals meaningless. Weather Russel gets uncontested rebounds to inflate his #s or to get the ball in his hands as fast as possible is meaningless. it's just a meaningless stat right now.

Raps18-19 Champ
07-29-2018, 08:56 PM
I'm not an OKC fan but I can appreciate that Westbrook is athletically the most impressive point I've ever seen. He can do pretty much anything on the floor and do it faster and more visually impressively than pretty much anybody his size ever.

But has his game been getting better?

Does he play within an offense?

Does he make his teammates better?

This is not a troll so please don't say it is.

You take the good with the bad.

ewing
07-29-2018, 09:02 PM
You take the good with the bad.

This.


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Scoots
07-29-2018, 09:08 PM
On the whole NBA teams have stopped hitting the offensive glass. Most rebounds are totally uncontested making individual rebounding totals meaningless. Weather Russel gets uncontested rebounds to inflate his #s or to get the ball in his hands as fast as possible is meaningless. it's just a meaningless stat right now.

Defensive rebounding stats have been worth little, but people still use it as a measure of defense.

ewing
07-29-2018, 09:51 PM
Defensive rebounding stats have been worth little, but people still use it as a measure of defense.

Regardless is not a legit criticism on Russellís game. There was a time when Dennis was accused of abandoning defensive assignments to get potential rebounding position. Thatís stat padding and hurting the team. Russell getting uncontested rebounds is meaningless. So is individual rebounding totals in general. Shot selection, game management as a pg, playing at different paces these are flaws not that he gets uncontested rebounds

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WhiteShadow42
07-29-2018, 11:36 PM
I'm genuinely confused with what happened to those people who didn't see it before. If I remember correctly one of their arguments was that Russ getting the board was intentional so Adams could get down court faster.

LOL. Which is why I was so confused that PG13 wanted to play with him.

WhiteShadow42
07-29-2018, 11:39 PM
Iím still waiting for the OKC fans to chyme in. Curious to what they have to say.

Jamiecballer
07-30-2018, 06:52 AM
It's a statistical certainty that the thunder score faster off rwb reboundsTo what end, so they can give it back even faster on the other end off his apathetic defense?
Besides, I was laughing at the notion that it's to get Adam's down the floor faster. I'm sure hes not the beneficiary of fast break transition opportunities here

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ewing
07-30-2018, 08:29 AM
To what end, so they can give it back even faster on the other end off his apathetic defense?
Besides, I was laughing at the notion that it's to get Adam's down the floor faster. I'm sure hes not the beneficiary of fast break transition opportunities here

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Russell Westbrook is not a bad defender (cue Jamie finding a youtube clip of his worst defensive possessions)

MygirlhatesCod
07-30-2018, 08:36 AM
Russell Westbrook is not a bad defender (cue Jamie finding a youtube clip of his worst defensive possessions)

when he is engaged I agree. but you can tell he often peels off his man when the ball is elsewhere. leaving ball rotation a lot easier for opposing teams. the whole point is game plans don't seem to be a thing for westbrook. he seems always in his own game of 21.

Raps18-19 Champ
07-30-2018, 08:38 AM
Iím still waiting for the OKC fans to chyme in. Curious to what they have to say.

There's like 1 OKC fan here lol.

ewing
07-30-2018, 08:41 AM
when he is engaged I agree. but you can tell he often peels off his man when the ball is elsewhere. leaving ball rotation a lot easier for opposing teams. the whole point is game plans don't seem to be a thing for westbrook. he seems always in his own game of 21.

He gambles and plays passing lanes. He also probably comes up with more lose balls then anyone in the league (again give and take). OKC has been a very strong defensive team with him and is a better defensive team with him on the floor. Jamie said what Russell brings on a offensive he give up faster on D and that's just BS

MygirlhatesCod
07-30-2018, 09:56 AM
He gambles and plays passing lanes. He also probably comes up with more lose balls then anyone in the league (again give and take). OKC has been a very strong defensive team with him and is a better defensive team with him on the floor. Jamie said what Russell brings on a offensive he give up faster on D and that's just BS

his ability isn't in question its more his intent on playing hero ball instead of team ball.

Jamiecballer
07-30-2018, 11:54 AM
Russell Westbrook is not a bad defender (cue Jamie finding a youtube clip of his worst defensive possessions)If you rarely try, you are a bad defender. Cue Ewing finding a YouTube clip of Westbrook trying.

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Jamiecballer
07-30-2018, 11:58 AM
He gambles and plays passing lanes. He also probably comes up with more lose balls then anyone in the league (again give and take). OKC has been a very strong defensive team with him and is a better defensive team with him on the floor. Jamie said what Russell brings on a offensive he give up faster on D and that's just BSWell I'm not saying I have a formula for this but if you've watched then I'm sure youve noticed a few things happened right when he flipped the triple double switch 2 years ago. An obvious effort was made to turn offensive possessions into a Russell led fast break, and he started prepping for the next offensive possession by holding back or leaking out rather than committing to play defense the whole possession. I can't tell you what that's worth but it certainly hurts the defense

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WaDe03
07-30-2018, 12:00 PM
Never would I ever have dreamed that Scoots would start a troll thread.

Westbrook is a hall of famer, top 3 point guard ever. Currently #3 best player in the league right now.

1. LeBron
2. Harden
3. Westbrook
4. Leonard
5. Davis

and so on.

I see nothing wrong here, great post as usual.

WaDe03
07-30-2018, 12:01 PM
There are no OKC fans on here.

ewing
07-30-2018, 12:02 PM
Well I'm not saying I have a formula for this but if you've watched then I'm sure youve noticed a few things happened right when he flipped the triple double switch 2 years ago. An obvious effort was made to turn offensive possessions into a Russell led fast break, and he started prepping for the next offensive possession by holding back or leaking out rather than committing to play defense the whole possession.

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come on either he is hoarding defensive rebounds or he is cherry picking. He can't do both Jamie.

WaDe03
07-30-2018, 12:16 PM
Gosh damnit Jamie!!!

ewing
07-30-2018, 12:17 PM
Gosh damnit Jamie!!!

get in that best player drafted 5th thread and school some people

WaDe03
07-30-2018, 12:21 PM
get in that best player drafted 5th thread and school some people

Not enough time for it today lol. Looks like Iím too late anyways with KG running away with it. As long as me and you know the truth thatís all that matters to me!

Jamiecballer
07-30-2018, 12:26 PM
come on either he is hoarding defensive rebounds or he is cherry picking. He can't do both Jamie.Well he isn't doing both at the same time, no, but over the course of 48 mins can he engage in both behaviours numerous times? Obviously yes. He doesn't accrue a triple double from a single possession so why you felt the need to make that point is beyond me because it isn't really pertinent. There are videos that show both exhaustively on YouTube.

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ewing
07-30-2018, 12:55 PM
Well he isn't doing both at the same time, no, but over the course of 48 mins can he engage in both behaviours numerous times? Obviously yes. He doesn't accrue a triple double from a single possession so why you felt the need to make that point is beyond me because it isn't really pertinent. There are videos that show both exhaustively on YouTube.

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If he shouldnít go to the glass or position himself for an outlet pass what should he do?


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Scoots
07-30-2018, 12:56 PM
Westbrook, like Harden, and KD and Ibaka to some extent, are not bad defenders when they are really trying on defense ... but that is true of every NBA player. Limited athletes are never going to be good defenders, but great athletes who don't try with a high level of consistency are bad defenders.

Westbrook gambles too much, is unaware or unwilling to stay in team defensive concepts ... this is why steals are not considered, in themselves, definitive of good defense.

mightybosstone
07-30-2018, 01:40 PM
I get the idea behind the post, but kind of an odd way to frame the conversation, Scoots. Why should OKC fans have to "defend" Westbrook? Hell, how many OKC fans do we even have on PSD? Why can't this just be an open, balanced conversation on the strengths and weaknesses of the guy without having to call out a particular fan base to defend their star player?

I will say this much for Westbrook: the guy plays with heart and an old-school mentality we just don't see much in today's NBA. He's a fearless competitor who would take every shot if a team asked him to and wants the ball in his hands in big moments. There has never been a moment that was too big for him. And on top of that, I appreciate his loyalty. These are all things that a certain former teammate of his could benefit from (I could be subtle here, but I'm talking about Kevin Durant).

And when things are going well for him, the guy is as unstoppable as any player in the NBA. If you needed a guy to get you two points in crunch time, I'm not sure there are 5 guys I'd go to before Westy. His speed and relentlessness can just be devastating at times.

So all that being said.... Yeah, he has some major holes in his game that he's never really addressed. He's never met a shot he didn't like, and despite being a pretty bad jump shooter, he continues to take bad shot after bad shot. If his intensity is his greatest strength, than his IQ is his greatest weakness. His shot selection hasn't improved, and he continues to turn the ball over at a high rate.

And on top of that, he's a hard guy to build around, because he doesn't really have a skillset that thrives well within a particular offensive system or that other guys can really benefit from. He doesn't do a great job of getting the ball in shooters' hands where they can get clean looks, and he doesn't play very good team defense. In fact, I'd say he's become an absolute shell of himself on the defensive end, where I used to think pretty highly of him.

Because of all of these flaws, he's a guy I have a hard time seeing as a champion if he's the best guy on your team. Could he win some rings as somebody's No. 2 or No. 3 later in his career if he's willing to take a secondary role? Sure. But even that would require him altering his game a little, which I haven't really seen a willingness to do.

However, he's still a damn good player, a future Hall of Famer and an MVPóand there's nothing anybody can say to take that away from him. But the fact that he's plateaued and probably won't ever win a championship will probably put him more in that top 40-50 conversation all-time when he retires instead of cracking that 20-30 conversation like it seemed he was on pace to do...

ewing
07-30-2018, 02:25 PM
I get the idea behind the post, but kind of an odd way to frame the conversation, Scoots. Why should OKC fans have to "defend" Westbrook? Hell, how many OKC fans do we even have on PSD? Why can't this just be an open, balanced conversation on the strengths and weaknesses of the guy without having to call out a particular fan base to defend their star player?

I will say this much for Westbrook: the guy plays with heart and an old-school mentality we just don't see much in today's NBA. He's a fearless competitor who would take every shot if a team asked him to and wants the ball in his hands in big moments. There has never been a moment that was too big for him. And on top of that, I appreciate his loyalty. These are all things that a certain former teammate of his could benefit from (I could be subtle here, but I'm talking about Kevin Durant).

And when things are going well for him, the guy is as unstoppable as any player in the NBA. If you needed a guy to get you two points in crunch time, I'm not sure there are 5 guys I'd go to before Westy. His speed and relentlessness can just be devastating at times.

So all that being said.... Yeah, he has some major holes in his game that he's never really addressed. He's never met a shot he didn't like, and despite being a pretty bad jump shooter, he continues to take bad shot after bad shot. If his intensity is his greatest strength, than his IQ is his greatest weakness. His shot selection hasn't improved, and he continues to turn the ball over at a high rate.

And on top of that, he's a hard guy to build around, because he doesn't really have a skillset that thrives well within a particular offensive system or that other guys can really benefit from. He doesn't do a great job of getting the ball in shooters' hands where they can get clean looks, and he doesn't play very good team defense. In fact, I'd say he's become an absolute shell of himself on the defensive end, where I used to think pretty highly of him.

Because of all of these flaws, he's a guy I have a hard time seeing as a champion if he's the best guy on your team. Could he win some rings as somebody's No. 2 or No. 3 later in his career if he's willing to take a secondary role? Sure. But even that would require him altering his game a little, which I haven't really seen a willingness to do.

However, he's still a damn good player, a future Hall of Famer and an MVPóand there's nothing anybody can say to take that away from him. But the fact that he's plateaued and probably won't ever win a championship will probably put him more in that top 40-50 conversation all-time when he retires instead of cracking that 20-30 conversation like it seemed he was on pace to do...

Good post bosstone. I agree with basically everything. I do still think that Russell is a solid defender but otherwise i think you are pretty spot on

Rivera
07-30-2018, 03:51 PM
What a troll thread lolol thereís only 1 OKC fan and heís banned. I hope he dupes into this thread

Scoots
07-30-2018, 05:50 PM
What a troll thread lolol thereís only 1 OKC fan and heís banned. I hope he dupes into this thread

Wasn't the intent. 2 years ago there were a lot of people arguing for Westbrook I wondered if they had changed in the interim.

Raps18-19 Champ
07-30-2018, 05:55 PM
Lol sure.

steamroller
07-30-2018, 09:12 PM
Never would I ever have dreamed that Scoots would start a troll thread.

Westbrook is a hall of famer, top 3 point guard ever. Currently #3 best player in the league right now.

1. LeBron
2. Harden
3. Westbrook
4. Leonard
5. Davis

and so on.

LMAO! Great troll post!

He's so great, he's lost in the first round of the playoffs two years running, this time with two future hall of famers as 2nd and 3rd options. Not to mention he has the luxury of an unselfish $26 million center blocking out for him to ensure he leads the league in triple doubles.

He's so great he ran a top 15 player all time (most likely when he retires) out of town, eliminating any chances of a title with his selfish play.

He's so great his team can't even crack 50 wins even when he set the all time NBA record for triple doubles last year, or playing alongside two other hall of famers this year.

He's so great that.......

....never mind.

ewing
07-31-2018, 12:07 AM
I get the idea behind the post, but kind of an odd way to frame the conversation, Scoots. Why should OKC fans have to "defend" Westbrook? Hell, how many OKC fans do we even have on PSD? Why can't this just be an open, balanced conversation on the strengths and weaknesses of the guy without having to call out a particular fan base to defend their star player?

I will say this much for Westbrook: the guy plays with heart and an old-school mentality we just don't see much in today's NBA. He's a fearless competitor who would take every shot if a team asked him to and wants the ball in his hands in big moments. There has never been a moment that was too big for him. And on top of that, I appreciate his loyalty. These are all things that a certain former teammate of his could benefit from (I could be subtle here, but I'm talking about Kevin Durant).

And when things are going well for him, the guy is as unstoppable as any player in the NBA. If you needed a guy to get you two points in crunch time, I'm not sure there are 5 guys I'd go to before Westy. His speed and relentlessness can just be devastating at times.

So all that being said.... Yeah, he has some major holes in his game that he's never really addressed. He's never met a shot he didn't like, and despite being a pretty bad jump shooter, he continues to take bad shot after bad shot. If his intensity is his greatest strength, than his IQ is his greatest weakness. His shot selection hasn't improved, and he continues to turn the ball over at a high rate.

And on top of that, he's a hard guy to build around, because he doesn't really have a skillset that thrives well within a particular offensive system or that other guys can really benefit from. He doesn't do a great job of getting the ball in shooters' hands where they can get clean looks, and he doesn't play very good team defense. In fact, I'd say he's become an absolute shell of himself on the defensive end, where I used to think pretty highly of him.

Because of all of these flaws, he's a guy I have a hard time seeing as a champion if he's the best guy on your team. Could he win some rings as somebody's No. 2 or No. 3 later in his career if he's willing to take a secondary role? Sure. But even that would require him altering his game a little, which I haven't really seen a willingness to do.

However, he's still a damn good player, a future Hall of Famer and an MVPóand there's nothing anybody can say to take that away from him. But the fact that he's plateaued and probably won't ever win a championship will probably put him more in that top 40-50 conversation all-time when he retires instead of cracking that 20-30 conversation like it seemed he was on pace to do...

Boss tone did you ever play ball seriously? I get the impression you didnít for some reason but you are one of the few posters that give that impression, have strong opinions, and get it


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jaydubb
07-31-2018, 03:42 AM
I think he's one of the most talented players of all time, but his basketball IQ and desire to get triple doubles at all costs can hurt his team at times imo.

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Jamiecballer
07-31-2018, 10:54 AM
I think he's one of the most talented players of all time, but his basketball IQ and desire to get triple doubles at all costs can hurt his team at times imo.

Sent from my SM-G930P using TapatalkBingo. Agreed on all counts.

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mightybosstone
07-31-2018, 12:29 PM
Boss tone did you ever play ball seriously? I get the impression you didnít for some reason but you are one of the few posters that give that impression, have strong opinions, and get it


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Nah. I'm 5'8" and not especially athletic. I played a lot with friends in junior high and high school, but I totally admit that I suck. Hell, I don't think I've shot a basketball in years. I just love watching the game and reading and learning about the history of it.

Raps18-19 Champ
07-31-2018, 10:45 PM
I think he's one of the most talented players of all time, but his basketball IQ and desire to get triple doubles at all costs can hurt his team at times imo.

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Well no ****. Harden has a ton of turnovers as a result of his play. Curry likes to be flashy and it costs the Warriors plays every once in a while.

http://i.imgur.com/po9XyT4.gif

Curry/Harden are good enough to make up for it with his play the same exact way Westbrook can make up for it. You take the good with the bad.

basch152
08-01-2018, 02:00 AM
Well no ****. Harden has a ton of turnovers as a result of his play. Curry likes to be flashy and it costs the Warriors plays every once in a while.

http://i.imgur.com/po9XyT4.gif

Curry/Harden are good enough to make up for it with his play the same exact way Westbrook can make up for it. You take the good with the bad.

westbrook's bad very often nears the point where it's barely outweighed by his good.

his bad is high stat whoring, low bball IQ, and inability to work inside most team offenses.

while his good being...pretty much his athleticism making him extremely difficult to guard. that's really about it.

that's a VERY good positive to have. but when you're talking about superstars...its simply not enough to put him up there with other superstars. he's a maybe top 10 player. thats about it.

thing is, with his abilities we should seriously be talking about him contending with lebron for best player in the NBA.

JAZZNC
08-01-2018, 03:49 AM
westbrook's bad very often nears the point where it's barely outweighed by his good.

his bad is high stat whoring, low bball IQ, and inability to work inside most team offenses.

while his good being...pretty much his athleticism making him extremely difficult to guard. that's really about it.

that's a VERY good positive to have. but when you're talking about superstars...its simply not enough to put him up there with other superstars. he's a maybe top 10 player. thats about it.

thing is, with his abilities we should seriously be talking about him contending with lebron for best player in the NBA.

That is what is frustrating with Westbrook. He has the athletic ability along with the skill to be a top 3 player in the game but he doesn't play to his strengths enough and gives into his weaknesses far too often. I mean there isn't really anybody that can keep him from getting to the rim whenever he wants to but settles for long jumpers all the time. I honestly think his confidence in himself really hurts him at times. He truly believes he can make any shot every single time he takes it and that gets him in trouble. And he should be a lock to make 1st or 2nd team All Defensive teams every year with that size and athleticism but he seems to have quit trying to be that kind of player.

We had a poll in here several years ago and it was asking who had the most potential at each position and I easily answered Westbrook at PG and truly still think he has the highest ceiling of any PG playing the game but it's doubtful (and really unfortunate for us fans) that he will ever reach it.

ewing
08-01-2018, 05:37 AM
Well no ****. Harden has a ton of turnovers as a result of his play. Curry likes to be flashy and it costs the Warriors plays every once in a while.

http://i.imgur.com/po9XyT4.gif

Curry/Harden are good enough to make up for it with his play the same exact way Westbrook can make up for it. You take the good with the bad.

The big difference is Russell isnít a great shooter.


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jaydubb
08-01-2018, 10:17 AM
Well no ****. Harden has a ton of turnovers as a result of his play. Curry likes to be flashy and it costs the Warriors plays every once in a while.

http://i.imgur.com/po9XyT4.gif

Curry/Harden are good enough to make up for it with his play the same exact way Westbrook can make up for it. You take the good with the bad.

I also can't tell you how many times I've seen Westbrook throwing up bricks with 3 guys around him and several teammates wide open because he's already met his assist quota. I've also seen him leave his man several times to try to meet his rebound quota and his man ends up getting a wide open three or when the defense shifts to make up for westys absence, a teammate gets a wide open shot. That's the difference between curry and Westbrook imo, both want to win of course but statz are more important to Westbrook.

And mind you, I'm a fan of Westbrook, really am. I love watching him play, but if I had to start a franchise and pick a player to build around, I don't think he'd be one of my top choices.

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Raps18-19 Champ
08-01-2018, 09:59 PM
I also can't tell you how many times I've seen Westbrook throwing up bricks with 3 guys around him and several teammates wide open because he's already met his assist quota. I've also seen him leave his man several times to try to meet his rebound quota and his man ends up getting a wide open three or when the defense shifts to make up for westys absence, a teammate gets a wide open shot. That's the difference between curry and Westbrook imo, both want to win of course but statz are more important to Westbrook.

And mind you, I'm a fan of Westbrook, really am. I love watching him play, but if I had to start a franchise and pick a player to build around, I don't think he'd be one of my top choices.

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OKC is working with what they have. He's not being given that much more praise than he deserves. Everyone already ackniowledges he's not good enough to lead a team to a title right now. What do you want them to do exactly?

Raps18-19 Champ
08-01-2018, 10:00 PM
westbrook's bad very often nears the point where it's barely outweighed by his good.

his bad is high stat whoring, low bball IQ, and inability to work inside most team offenses.

while his good being...pretty much his athleticism making him extremely difficult to guard. that's really about it.

that's a VERY good positive to have. but when you're talking about superstars...its simply not enough to put him up there with other superstars. he's a maybe top 10 player. thats about it.

thing is, with his abilities we should seriously be talking about him contending with lebron for best player in the NBA.

You could say that with a lot of players. If he's top 10, what exactly is there to discuss or defend? There isn't a lot of people praising him more than what he's doing.

jaydubb
08-01-2018, 10:37 PM
OKC is working with what they have. He's not being given that much more praise than he deserves. Everyone already ackniowledges he's not good enough to lead a team to a title right now. What do you want them to do exactly?

Not sure exactly what you're getting at here. What do I want who to do? The fans? I really don't care what the fans do, I was just giving my personal opinion on russell westbrook. If you're talking about okc ownership, I wouldn't do anything if I were them and I don't expect them to do anything different.. Westbrook sells tickets, jerseys, and merchandise. They are very happy with him in okc. But if they had a top 5 pick in a complete nba redraft, I bet you they don't take westbrook...

basch152
08-02-2018, 12:46 AM
You could say that with a lot of players. If he's top 10, what exactly is there to discuss or defend? There isn't a lot of people praising him more than what he's doing.

I said he's a fringe top 10 player.

And like I said, with his abilities it's honestly pretty sad that that is the case. he should easily be top 3 and fighting for #1.

ewing
08-02-2018, 07:45 AM
I said he's a fringe top 10 player.

And like I said, with his abilities it's honestly pretty sad that that is the case. he should easily be top 3 and fighting for #1.

You said his bad very often nears the point where it outweighs his good. That's not true for any top 10 player in the league ever.

basch152
08-02-2018, 08:42 AM
You said his bad very often nears the point where it outweighs his good. That's not true for any top 10 player in the league ever.

it is for him. he's a top 10 player, but then he starts stat whoring and hurting his team more than helping, and takes dumb shots.

so yes, hes a fringe top 10 while also having good that barely outweighs his bad.

ewing
08-02-2018, 12:35 PM
it is for him. he's a top 10 player, but then he starts stat whoring and hurting his team more than helping, and takes dumb shots.

so yes, hes a fringe top 10 while also having good that barely outweighs his bad.

No offense but thatís stupid. The good might barely out weigh the bad for Javel McGee if you extended his mins. The good almost always out weighs the bad for Russell and every other all star player in the NBA


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Scoots
08-02-2018, 01:10 PM
it is for him. he's a top 10 player, but then he starts stat whoring and hurting his team more than helping, and takes dumb shots.

so yes, hes a fringe top 10 while also having good that barely outweighs his bad.

Maybe that's the issue. When he's good he's top 10, when he's bad he's devastating to his team.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201804270UTA.html

Russ took 43 shots in an elimination game ... the rest of the team (including PG and Melo) took 50 total. Now some might say the rest of that team were playing terrible that night ... but how do they get out of that if one guy is jacking up 43 shots AND totally dominating the ball with a usage near 50? Clearly Russ was not the only problem that night ... but watching the game it looked like the only thought he had was "I can score enough to win this game!" ... and that's essentially never true.

Jamiecballer
08-02-2018, 02:29 PM
it is for him. he's a top 10 player, but then he starts stat whoring and hurting his team more than helping, and takes dumb shots.

so yes, hes a fringe top 10 while also having good that barely outweighs his bad.I dont know how you reconcile that exactly. I think Ewing is right. That's why hes closer to 30 than 10 for me.

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Jamiecballer
08-02-2018, 02:30 PM
Maybe that's the issue. When he's good he's top 10, when he's bad he's devastating to his team.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201804270UTA.html

Russ took 43 shots in an elimination game ... the rest of the team (including PG and Melo) took 50 total. Now some might say the rest of that team were playing terrible that night ... but how do they get out of that if one guy is jacking up 43 shots AND totally dominating the ball with a usage near 50? Clearly Russ was not the only problem that night ... but watching the game it looked like the only thought he had was "I can score enough to win this game!" ... and that's essentially never true.Story of his life dude

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KnicksorBust
08-02-2018, 02:48 PM
I think Westbrook would have been better in the 90s playing with a traditional post player. In this era of shooting and athletic forwards/centers he is a ball-dominating guard who needs to be surrounded by shooters to be most effective.

KnicksorBust
08-02-2018, 02:48 PM
In fairness if OKC wasn't dumb and traded Harden then they might have won the title that year and his whole career plays out differently.

Jamiecballer
08-02-2018, 04:05 PM
I'm not sure that would really change his career or the narrative around it.

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Raps18-19 Champ
08-02-2018, 09:50 PM
I said he's a fringe top 10 player.

And like I said, with his abilities it's honestly pretty sad that that is the case. he should easily be top 3 and fighting for #1.

You're clearly stretching here.

Even if he's only fringe top 10, he benefits his team much more than he is a liability . Hence, he is frustrating to watch but like I said, you have to take the good with the bad.

Raps18-19 Champ
08-02-2018, 09:51 PM
Maybe that's the issue. When he's good he's top 10, when he's bad he's devastating to his team.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201804270UTA.html

Russ took 43 shots in an elimination game ... the rest of the team (including PG and Melo) took 50 total. Now some might say the rest of that team were playing terrible that night ... but how do they get out of that if one guy is jacking up 43 shots AND totally dominating the ball with a usage near 50? Clearly Russ was not the only problem that night ... but watching the game it looked like the only thought he had was "I can score enough to win this game!" ... and that's essentially never true.

It's much more lopsided to him being a top 10 player than he is a liability to the team.

basch152
08-03-2018, 03:04 AM
No offense but thatís stupid. The good might barely out weigh the bad for Javel McGee if you extended his mins. The good almost always out weighs the bad for Russell and every other all star player in the NBA


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except when it doesnt.

again, we've seen games where russ has 10 assists and 10 rebounds so he starts taking absurd shots to get more points and hurting his team.

we've seen games where he's one assist from a triple double and all of a sudden he's passing wide open shots and trying to force ridiculous passes, and again, hurting his team.

so like I said, he has the talent to be a top 10 player, but because he goes into a stat whoring mode so often, he just often isn't a top 10 player.

ewing
08-03-2018, 08:27 AM
except when it doesnt.

again, we've seen games where russ has 10 assists and 10 rebounds so he starts taking absurd shots to get more points and hurting his team.

we've seen games where he's one assist from a triple double and all of a sudden he's passing wide open shots and trying to force ridiculous passes, and again, hurting his team.

so like I said, he has the talent to be a top 10 player, but because he goes into a stat whoring mode so often, he just often isn't a top 10 player.

If he would just run the picket fence, right?

Quinnsanity
08-03-2018, 01:48 PM
Never would I ever have dreamed that Scoots would start a troll thread.

Westbrook is a hall of famer, top 3 point guard ever. Currently #3 best player in the league right now.

1. LeBron
2. Harden
3. Westbrook
4. Leonard
5. Davis

and so on.

You're accusing someone of making a troll thread in a post in which you claim netiher KD nor Curry is a top-five player? They're second and third. Westbrook is eighth at best. I don't think there's a reasonable argument at this point that Westbrook is better than Bron, Curry, KD, Harden or Davis. I think Giannins and (healthy) Kawhi are pretty definitively ahead of him as two-way players. Westbrook is in that next group.