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LOb0
07-27-2018, 03:14 AM
Do you think Durant will surpass Kobe on the all time greats list? Maybe you think he already has? Does Durant need a title without 3 all-star teammates?

JAZZNC
07-27-2018, 03:53 AM
Given his current trajectory, no.

Jeffy25
07-27-2018, 04:28 AM
He's better, but his legacy will be worse

Jamiecballer
07-27-2018, 09:03 AM
He should be. People care less about championships when ranking players than they did 10 years ago, I dont expect that trend to change so in the future i think it will be an easy discussion.

Sent from my SM-A520W using Tapatalk

mightybosstone
07-27-2018, 09:37 AM
Didn't we have a thread on this not that long ago? I can't remember. But I'm assuming this stems from the other Durant conversation, and this is still an interesting topic so I'm good with it.

I voted no. But it's not an easy decision. If you look at Durant's peak numbers from the 2012-13 season to 2017-18, they're vastly superior to Kobe's peak numbers. And that 2013-14 MVP season was a freaking masterpiece: probably one of the 10 greatest seasons in NBA history. Throw in some rings (he'll probably win at least 3-4, but could feasibly top Kobe), the Finals MVPs and the fact that he's clearly the best big game player on the Warriors, and there's a very strong case to be made for him to surpass guys like Kobe and Bird.

But context matters. People say that nobody will remember how he left one team to play for another in 20 years, but I kinda think they will. When people talk about those great Knicks teams of the 60s and 70s, they still talk about how Earl Monroe left Baltimore to play with his biggest rival in Walt Frazier. Now, there's not necessarily a negative connotation to it, but I think if Monroe had been a player of Durant's caliber, there would have been.

The funny thing is that it's hard to argue that Durant's move didn't ultimately help his legacy a little. If he stays in OKC or moves somewhere else, there's no guarantee that he ever wins a ring. And if that happens, he probably ends up in that conversation with guys like Barkley and Malone: guys outside that top 10-15 conversation who always have that "but" in the all-time conversations because of that lack of championship success.

But I also think (and I'm repeating myself from the other thread here) that the move puts a ceiling on Durant. Statistically, he's been superior to guys like Kobe and Bird, but how do you rank him ahead of those guys when you consider his decision? Granted Kobe and Bird played for teams with a TON of talent in their careers, but they wanted to be the No. 1 guy on those teams. Kobe even feuded with Shaq, essentially got him traded and then proceeded to win two rings without him. Say what you will about that guy, but he had some balls. I kinda don't think Durant does, and history will remember that.

Hawkeye15
07-27-2018, 09:45 AM
tough one. For me, no. Unless Durant is peeled away from his ridiculous roster help and wins himself.

His numbers are better, but I have him around 20ish right now, and I personally won't put him much higher, if at all, unless his situation changes. This has nothing to do with staying with your original team, or free agency, nothing.

If Kobe would have hopped ship after the 2003 playoffs to the Spurs, and the Spurs reeled off the next 4 championships, would Kobe have gotten legacy credit? The answer is hell no. He gets a hard enough time for naturally just being the younger star during Shaq's peak.

MygirlhatesCod
07-27-2018, 09:48 AM
KD is already a better player. like him or not its truth. biased aside I find it hard to believe anyone would select Kobe over KD in a draft with hindsight.

WaDe03
07-27-2018, 10:13 AM
No lol. 1 of them could take a team to a championship, the other had to run to an MVP DPOY and all star to win his.

MygirlhatesCod
07-27-2018, 10:17 AM
No lol. 1 of them could take a team to a championship, the other had to run to an MVP DPOY and all star to win his.

starting a team and both are on the board who would you choose?

TrueFan420
07-27-2018, 10:22 AM
Will he be ahead is too vague.

On the court KD is the better player. There's no doubt in my mind and I feel most (outside of laker fans and some KD hardcore haters) would draft KD over Kobe if they were starting a team.

Legacy wise is a tougher question. Kobe has had some off court hits to his legacy but many will ignore it and how he got to LA because he ultimately stayed in LA. People will hold this against KD for a while. Though eventual people will forget or move on or find a new target.

I guess to answer the question, right when he retires likely not but 10 to 20 years after yes I think he will climb over him.

*I also don't have Kobe in my top 10. He's in the 11-15 range for me. Don't want to start that debate but figured it was worth noting.

GREATNESS ONE
07-27-2018, 10:43 AM
No.

MygirlhatesCod
07-27-2018, 10:55 AM
No.

hmm...excellent point! ive now changed my mind.

mngopher35
07-27-2018, 11:35 AM
Nope. His move really hurts him in the sense of proving himself capable at that very top all time level. As others have said he may have locked himself into top 20 with those rings but I don't just give credit for jumping to the GOAT situation. All we really know is that with Westy/Harden/Ibaka early on he couldn't get it done then later when Westy/Ibaka/Adams wasn't enough help for him anymore he ran to a team capable of winning without him and already setting wins record as well.

In the playoffs between those stacked teams we saw KD with:

22.6 PER, .155 WS/48, 4.4 BPM. For reference every single one of these is below James Harden's numbers over the past 4 playoffs (both roughly a 50 game sample).

So without a ridiculously stacked team with multiple people able to create for him KD seems to fall off a cliff in the playoffs. He is very poor at handling pressure as the man, he needs more help than other stars before him and I think he knew that in running to GS. (note RS over this span KD was 29, .28, 8 so he was elite in RS but had trouble when teams focused in more come playoffs). In his final series in OKC he shot the ball more than 20 times 4 times. Every single time he exceeded 20 shots he fell below .400 shooting that series. He really struggles when he is forced to create at a higher rate.

Given the context of his move his rings are near meaningless to me, he could become a lesser player and easily still win and take advantage of this situation imo. When I saw him actually forced to carry teams that only (lol) have one other MVP level player (who creates for the team/others) without 2 other all stars he seemed unable. I just can't give KD this overwhelming credit of a top 10 or even top 15 player with how bad the context looks for him from an individual standpoint.

WaDe03
07-27-2018, 11:37 AM
starting a team and both are on the board who would you choose?

Kobe, he wins championships.

WaDe03
07-27-2018, 11:38 AM
What makes KD a better player than Kobe? Both great scorers, Kobe the much better defender and winner with ridiculous longevity.

Jeffy25
07-27-2018, 11:39 AM
What makes KD a better player than Kobe? Both great scorers, Kobe the much better defender and winner with ridiculous longevity.

Durant is a significantly better scorer. Significant.

Jeffy25
07-27-2018, 11:40 AM
Kobe, he wins championships.

So does Durant, with the right squad anyone wins championships.

GREATNESS ONE
07-27-2018, 11:56 AM
Durant is a significantly better scorer. Significant.

:laugh2:

MygirlhatesCod
07-27-2018, 12:46 PM
:laugh2:

offensively KD is much more efficient! on average kobe took about one more shot per game than KD (thought that it would be higher) and his TS% is .061 lower than KD's.
in addition Kobe is a piece of ****!

nastynice
07-27-2018, 12:49 PM
This is a good question, I think he possibly can pass up kobe, depends on how his gs run plays out. He should end up in that 2nd tier of greats, kobe, KG, Duncan, etc

nastynice
07-27-2018, 12:51 PM
Durant is a significantly better scorer. Significant.

I don't know about significantly. Kobe is probably the most skilled offensive player I've ever seen.

But he def scores more effortless :)

MygirlhatesCod
07-27-2018, 12:58 PM
I don't know about significantly. Kobe is probably the most skilled offensive player I've ever seen.

But he def scores more effortless :)

were you too young for Jordan?

WaDe03
07-27-2018, 01:01 PM
So does Durant, with the right squad anyone wins championships.

You know what I mean, Kobe lifts his team up and wins championships. KD had to form the most stacked team in nba history to win a championship.

MygirlhatesCod
07-27-2018, 01:01 PM
I don't know about significantly. Kobe is probably the most skilled offensive player I've ever seen.

But he def scores more effortless :)

im kinda confused by both statements. so Kobe is more skilled but KD scores easier?

WaDe03
07-27-2018, 01:03 PM
I don't know about significantly. Kobe is probably the most skilled offensive player I've ever seen.

But he def scores more effortless :)

Kobe would be much more efficient playing in a game today with the floor much more spread than it used to be and with the court having only 1 legit big on the court at most times. When Kobe drove to the basket he was met by Perkins and Garnett and many more combinations of 2 bigs. When KD drives itís against 1 big like TT, Capela, Adams, etc. Teams arenít playing near as big now.

MygirlhatesCod
07-27-2018, 01:04 PM
You know what I mean, Kobe lifts his team up and wins championships. KD had to form the most stacked team in nba history to win a championship.

broke parakeet..say something new. explain how that makes Kobe a better player.

IKnowHoops
07-27-2018, 01:05 PM
Well...heís better, more impactful, and plays winning basketball...I find it irritating that having all that doesnít make you better when we start discussing this BS. Itís why I got Drob in my top 10. I donít care about the politics. Letís look at the film, letís look at the numbers. Peak for Peak. 1 to 5 seasons at Peak whatever. Thatís what tells me who was best at there best thus who is best.

Durant easily

IKnowHoops
07-27-2018, 01:07 PM
Kobe would be much more efficient playing in a game today with the floor much more spread than it used to be and with the court having only 1 legit big on the court at most times. When Kobe drove to the basket he was met by Perkins and Garnett and many more combinations of 2 bigs. When KD drives itís against 1 big like TT, Capela, Adams, etc. Teams arenít playing near as big now.

His shooting % had zero to do with his opposition and 100% to do with his mentality

IKnowHoops
07-27-2018, 01:08 PM
were you too young for Jordan?

Yes

MygirlhatesCod
07-27-2018, 01:16 PM
Kobe would be much more efficient playing in a game today with the floor much more spread than it used to be and with the court having only 1 legit big on the court at most times. When Kobe drove to the basket he was met by Perkins and Garnett and many more combinations of 2 bigs. When KD drives itís against 1 big like TT, Capela, Adams, etc. Teams arenít playing near as big now.

its because they are obsolete now. the defensive schemes and rotations have been upgraded and are more advanced than 10-15 years ago. if it was that much better wouldn't it still be employed?

nastynice
07-27-2018, 01:26 PM
were you too young for Jordan?

Kobes more skilled, Jordans more athletic, clutch, and overall better. Given Jordans clear athletic superiority, the fact that kobe could mimic as close as he did speaks volumes to his skill

MygirlhatesCod
07-27-2018, 01:30 PM
Kobes more skilled, Jordans more athletic, clutch, and overall better. Given Jordans clear athletic superiority, the fact that kobe could mimic as close as he did speaks volumes to his skill

At what?

nastynice
07-27-2018, 01:30 PM
im kinda confused by both statements. so Kobe is more skilled but KD scores easier?

Yea, kd has a natural length advantage that allows him to basically shoot any jump shot from any spot on the court

But kobe had way more refined skills, he was pretty much elite in every phase of offense, except chucking. KD is still growing

GREATNESS ONE
07-27-2018, 01:34 PM
At what?

Ask your girl?

nastynice
07-27-2018, 01:35 PM
At what?

Fundamental ****, footwork, how to move a defender, that type a stuff.

Lets put it like this. Say kobe or Jordan has the ball in the post, Jordan has a few unstoppable moves, kobe has more moves but not as unstoppable. Jordans skilled as hell, but his athletic advantage allows him certain looks that kobe can only get by relying more on his skill

cmellofan15
07-27-2018, 01:44 PM
Fundamental ****, footwork, how to move a defender, that type a stuff.

Lets put it like this. Say kobe or Jordan has the ball in the post, Jordan has a few unstoppable moves, kobe has more moves but not as unstoppable. Jordans skilled as hell, but his athletic advantage allows him certain looks that kobe can only get by relying more on his skill

Lmao so you discredit jordan because heís more athletic? Iíll just put it like this, Kobe stole his moves from jordan and used them to be a less efficient player. How in the world does that equate to Kobe being more skilled?

WaDe03
07-27-2018, 01:50 PM
its because they are obsolete now. the defensive schemes and rotations have been upgraded and are more advanced than 10-15 years ago. if it was that much better wouldn't it still be employed?

The style of play has just changed, itís much more of an offensive minded game than it is defensive. Thatís why they arenít playing 2 bigs anymore, it doesnít change the fact that it was much harder to drive to the basket with 2 7 footers as opposed to 1.

nastynice
07-27-2018, 01:50 PM
Lmao so you discredit jordan because heís more athletic? Iíll just put it like this, Kobe stole his moves from jordan and used them to be a less efficient player. How in the world does that equate to Kobe being more skilled?

Because skill and efficiency are different things, so are skill and talent. I'm strictly talking Kobes skill level here. Skill is what you work on. An illustration of this is kobe working on his post game with Hakeem

WaDe03
07-27-2018, 01:52 PM
broke parakeet..say something new. explain how that makes Kobe a better player.

Because he could accomplish the top goal in the NBA without joining a team that went 73-9. KD has all the pieces before and could never get the job done.

WaDe03
07-27-2018, 01:54 PM
His shooting % had zero to do with his opposition and 100% to do with his mentality

Partly true and false.

Hawkeye15
07-27-2018, 01:57 PM
I don't know about significantly. Kobe is probably the most skilled offensive player I've ever seen.

But he def scores more effortless :)

why do I keep reading Kobe was the most skilled scorer? A perfect scorer can score in any way, and does it efficiently. Kobe was prolific, and great for a volume shooter, but he lacked a long ball and stopped going to the rim in his early 30s. Durant is, so far, a better all around scorer.

Hawkeye15
07-27-2018, 01:58 PM
Fundamental ****, footwork, how to move a defender, that type a stuff.

Lets put it like this. Say kobe or Jordan has the ball in the post, Jordan has a few unstoppable moves, kobe has more moves but not as unstoppable. Jordans skilled as hell, but his athletic advantage allows him certain looks that kobe can only get by relying more on his skill

ahh, the old fundamental argument.

Name of the game is put the ball in the hole, any way possible. Style points don't count.

nastynice
07-27-2018, 02:04 PM
why do I keep reading Kobe was the most skilled scorer? A perfect scorer can score in any way, and does it efficiently. Kobe was prolific, and great for a volume shooter, but he lacked a long ball and stopped going to the rim in his early 30s. Durant is, so far, a better all around scorer.

Durant is getting there, he's more efficient, he's more automatic, better scorer probably, but better "all around" scorer? I don't think so, because now we're talking offensive skill set and kobe def had the deeper stash of offensive weaponry. Look how unrefined kd's post game is compared to Kobe.

Kd might get there tho. He's still elevating his game

nastynice
07-27-2018, 02:06 PM
ahh, the old fundamental argument.

Name of the game is put the ball in the hole, any way possible. Style points don't count.

It's not about style points, it's about skill points

Hawkeye15
07-27-2018, 02:19 PM
It's not about style points, it's about skill points

not really. The exception is not crossing between bigs/wings/smalls. Shaq obviously was unstoppable as a scorer, but had limits. Durant scores in every way Kobe did, but better. He grew up in a different rule era, so the catch/observe/pivot **** from 20 years ago isn't even taught today. Isolation is dead. As it should be. Durant does literally everything as well as Kobe did, but can shoot the 3, and is actually harder to stop due to length.

Again, debating arbitrary opinions like who is skilled or has fundamentals is useless, there is nothing behind it. But we KNOW Durant is more efficient, and we know he can score off the bounce, catch, in transition, slow down, 3 ball, draw fouls, anything. He literally has zero weaknesses except for his physical strength, which he has worked around.

I am done defending that vagina, but I am also so sick of reading Kobe is the best scorer the game has seen. No, he isn't.

IKnowHoops
07-27-2018, 02:30 PM
Kobes more skilled, Jordans more athletic, clutch, and overall better. Given Jordans clear athletic superiority, the fact that kobe could mimic as close as he did speaks volumes to his skill

Not bad

MygirlhatesCod
07-27-2018, 02:31 PM
Ask your girl?

hahaha..i enjoy that im getting you all angry!

MygirlhatesCod
07-27-2018, 02:34 PM
Fundamental ****, footwork, how to move a defender, that type a stuff.

Lets put it like this. Say kobe or Jordan has the ball in the post, Jordan has a few unstoppable moves, kobe has more moves but not as unstoppable. Jordans skilled as hell, but his athletic advantage allows him certain looks that kobe can only get by relying more on his skill

you really need to watch some Jordan film. there is nothing that Kobe did better!

Hawkeye15
07-27-2018, 02:39 PM
you really need to watch some Jordan film. there is nothing that Kobe did better!

literally nothing. Kobe is a top 10-12 player ever, but he is simply a lesser version of Jordan. That isn't a criticism at all, he was simply a copycat and was just a lesser version in every part of the game.

MygirlhatesCod
07-27-2018, 02:52 PM
The style of play has just changed, itís much more of an offensive minded game than it is defensive. Thatís why they arenít playing 2 bigs anymore, it doesnít change the fact that it was much harder to drive to the basket with 2 7 footers as opposed to 1.

why do people say that? its always been an offensive minded game. the difference is pace. slow the pace down and the same scoring average would be consistent with years past. people love to live in the past and say its crazy hard to drive with two bigs on the floor but the mid 80's to early 90's had pretty much the same scoring average as now (because of pace). and that era was full of "bigs".

IKnowHoops
07-27-2018, 02:54 PM
literally nothing. Kobe is a top 10-12 player ever, but he is simply a lesser version of Jordan. That isn't a criticism at all, he was simply a copycat and was just a lesser version in every part of the game.

This forever

numba1CHANGsta
07-27-2018, 02:56 PM
Kobe won with one team his entire career. He could have easily left and joined TD in SA and would have 7 rings right now. It's more impressive to win with one team so no KD will never pass Kobe.

Hawkeye15
07-27-2018, 03:02 PM
Kobe won with one team his entire career. He could have easily left and joined TD in SA and would have 7 rings right now. It's more impressive to win with one team so no KD will never pass Kobe.

how?

It's not necessarily more impressive to win with a single team at all by the way. But running with your tail between your legs to a dynasty already in progress for sure diminishes titles.

AntiG
07-27-2018, 03:15 PM
Because skill and efficiency are different things, so are skill and talent. I'm strictly talking Kobes skill level here. Skill is what you work on. An illustration of this is kobe working on his post game with Hakeem

if you're talking pure skill as a scorer, Bird crushes Kobe, Durant and Jordan.

Hawkeye15
07-27-2018, 03:26 PM
if you're talking pure skill as a scorer, Bird crushes Kobe, Durant and Jordan.

nope. Bird did not possess the lateral quickness or handles to score off the dribble like the 3 you mentioned. Bird is much more Dirk than the 3 here. Which isn't bad at all, it just means in a box, the 3 (Kobe, Durant, Jordan) basically had every tool possible, Bird lacking only the physical ability to create space with athleticism.

nastynice
07-27-2018, 04:00 PM
not really. The exception is not crossing between bigs/wings/smalls. Shaq obviously was unstoppable as a scorer, but had limits. Durant scores in every way Kobe did, but better. He grew up in a different rule era, so the catch/observe/pivot **** from 20 years ago isn't even taught today. Isolation is dead. As it should be. Durant does literally everything as well as Kobe did, but can shoot the 3, and is actually harder to stop due to length.

Again, debating arbitrary opinions like who is skilled or has fundamentals is useless, there is nothing behind it. But we KNOW Durant is more efficient, and we know he can score off the bounce, catch, in transition, slow down, 3 ball, draw fouls, anything. He literally has zero weaknesses except for his physical strength, which he has worked around.

I am done defending that vagina, but I am also so sick of reading Kobe is the best scorer the game has seen. No, he isn't.

If debating opinions like skills is useless then what the hell are we talking about?

Hawkeye15
07-27-2018, 04:10 PM
If debating opinions like skills is useless then what the hell are we talking about?

pointing to arbitrary fundamentals that Bob Cousy practiced just doesn't mean a ton. I get it, Kobe put a lot into his craft, and was amazing. But "skill" means the ability to do something well. And, Durant is more skilled than Kobe at scoring the basketball. He can do it in more ways, and does it better. Again, the name of the game is efficiency. This is the same argument people used forever to sell Melo as a high level scorer, because he checks all the boxes (post up, catch/shoot, ball fakes, square up, etc). Using traditional basketball fundamentals is cool, but not necessary for a lot of guys. In fact, if you are Durant, you want to go as quickly as possible, before defenders get to you or your man can settle in. He and Kobe are different, sure. But they both use the same principals to score, and Durant has done it better. He doesn't have the chuck it bone like Kobe did, or the, "I shoot my way out of a slump, my team be damned". And vice versa, many times Durant won't go 1-5 when he is hot, instead going through the offensive sets and letting scoring come naturally.

The biggest edge Kobe had, was his physical strength. Durant suffers to this day with contact, but you can't breath on him anyways without a foul call. Kobe was very good at keeping defenders at bay with physicality when need be. That much I can give him.

WhiteShadow42
07-27-2018, 04:38 PM
I haven't read all the posts in this thread but from what I read I don't think anyone mentioned things on the defensive side. Kobe has been on 9 all defense team selections. Now do I think he deserved all of them? That's a debate for another day. But I don't think Durant been selected to any. Maybe one. I think he is underrated on that side but with just that info, I have to give Kobe the edge.

Hawkeye15
07-27-2018, 04:40 PM
I haven't read all the posts in this thread but from what I read I don't think anyone mentioned things on the defensive side. Kobe has been on 9 all defense team selections. Now do I think he deserved all of them? That's a debate for another day. But I don't think Durant been selected to any. Maybe one. I think he is underrated on that side but with just that info, I have to give Kobe the edge.

Kobe made like 3-4 all defensive teams he had no business on, but I agree with your point. Kobe was an all NBA defender for a number of years, and a better defender than Durant for sure.

WhiteShadow42
07-27-2018, 05:22 PM
Kobe made like 3-4 all defensive teams he had no business on, but I agree with your point. Kobe was an all NBA defender for a number of years, and a better defender than Durant for sure.

I'm a Kobe fan and I didn't feel he deserved all of them. Agreed definitely 4 or so. That is still great. The last two year Durant has played very good defense.

steamroller
07-27-2018, 05:55 PM
Naw he needs more street cred like Kobe. Like when Kobe raped that girl in CO. That's some serious street cred right there.

GREATNESS ONE
07-27-2018, 06:11 PM
hahaha..i enjoy that im getting you all angry!

gon take much more than that, to upset me :)

GREATNESS ONE
07-27-2018, 06:12 PM
Naw he needs more street cred like Kobe. Like when Kobe raped that girl in CO. That's some serious street cred right there.

Or when you smile like a donut

Bostonjorge
07-28-2018, 12:34 AM
I haven't read all the posts in this thread but from what I read I don't think anyone mentioned things on the defensive side. Kobe has been on 9 all defense team selections. Now do I think he deserved all of them? That's a debate for another day. But I don't think Durant been selected to any. Maybe one. I think he is underrated on that side but with just that info, I have to give Kobe the edge.

Kobe has 9 first team and 12 total. Only Duncan has more total but less first teams then Kobe.

Durant is 7 foot and never dominated the post like Kobe did. Being 7 foot is the only strength I give to KD over Kobe.

Dade County
07-28-2018, 12:41 AM
It's impossible to judge KD future outlook. Individual he is on pause mode to me, I can only judge him as a member of one of the most stack teams in NBA history.

So, by this, I have to look at him from his rookie year until the point he left OKC. So as of right now, he can't pass Kobe.

GREATNESS ONE
07-28-2018, 03:04 AM
Kobe has 9 first team and 12 total. Only Duncan has more total but less first teams then Kobe.

Durant is 7 foot and never dominated the post like Kobe did. Being 7 foot is the only strength I give to KD over Kobe.

For years, you been dropping #TruthBombs

Jeffy25
07-28-2018, 03:22 AM
Kobe would be much more efficient playing in a game today with the floor much more spread than it used to be and with the court having only 1 legit big on the court at most times. When Kobe drove to the basket he was met by Perkins and Garnett and many more combinations of 2 bigs. When KD drives itís against 1 big like TT, Capela, Adams, etc. Teams arenít playing near as big now.

If that's the case, then scoring from further should have been easier for Kobe, but Durant is the better deep range, 3 point, and mid range shooter

nastynice
07-28-2018, 04:03 AM
Kobe has 9 first team and 12 total. Only Duncan has more total but less first teams then Kobe.

Durant is 7 foot and never dominated the post like Kobe did. Being 7 foot is the only strength I give to KD over Kobe.

Kd is a better pure shooter, better pull up, better catch and shoot, he's probably just as good at driving and finishing.

Kd's game is much simpler, he picks a spot on the floor, gets there, and takes his shot. The issue is, he has like 50 spots on the floor, and when he gets there he can elevate over basically anyone

Heediot
07-28-2018, 05:48 AM
Kd is a better pure shooter, better pull up, better catch and shoot, he's probably just as good at driving and finishing.

Kd's game is much simpler, he picks a spot on the floor, gets there, and takes his shot. The issue is, he has like 50 spots on the floor, and when he gets there he can elevate over basically anyone

Kobe is more consistent with tighter playoff defenses hounding him IMO.

Jordan, Kobe, Wade, Bron are better at getting theirs when defenses amp up. KD has it easy with Curry sucking in the defense, when playoff defenses key in on him I don't think he's at the level of other all time greats.

Jamiecballer
07-28-2018, 10:30 AM
Why is nobody else saying yes - most certainly - but me.

In any other question of all-time greats when one player clearly evolved into the better player, and stayed there for years, we would all be like "duh".

Kevin Dyrant may have a vajayjay but you all are voting with yours



Sent from my SM-A520W using Tapatalk

IKnowHoops
07-28-2018, 11:14 AM
Why is nobody else saying yes - most certainly - but me.

In any other question of all-time greats when one player clearly evolved into the better player, and stayed there for years, we would all be like "duh".

Kevin Dyrant may have a vajayjay but you all are voting with yours



Sent from my SM-A520W using Tapatalk

You must of missed my post

LaVar Ball
07-28-2018, 11:34 AM
Tittays

beasted86
07-28-2018, 11:37 AM
Kevin Durant will always be looked at as someone who put up better stats but not necessarily a greater impact on winning than Kobe. Simply put, Kobe will always be viewed as a much greater leader.

Kobe will also always be considered a far, far greater defender during his prime.

As far as intangible greatness, KD simply hasn't placed the imprint on the game in the same way. I simply don't see a lot of kids or college freshman saying KD was their favorite player and guy they emulated.

These facts lend to the notion that KD will never be viewed as greater than Kobe at the current trajectory.

Jeffy25
07-28-2018, 12:10 PM
Kobe is more consistent with tighter playoff defenses hounding him IMO.

Jordan, Kobe, Wade, Bron are better at getting theirs when defenses amp up. KD has it easy with Curry sucking in the defense, when playoff defenses key in on him I don't think he's at the level of other all time greats.

I can find a number of examples where Durant led the Thunder to a win by himself while Westbrook sucked ***.

Here is one notable example
https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201605080OKC.html

The Spurs of 2016 were not a bad defensive team at all.

Jamiecballer
07-28-2018, 12:30 PM
Kevin Durant will always be looked at as someone who put up better stats but not necessarily a greater impact on winning than Kobe. Simply put, Kobe will always be viewed as a much greater leader.

Kobe will also always be considered a far, far greater defender during his prime.

As far as intangible greatness, KD simply hasn't placed the imprint on the game in the same way. I simply don't see a lot of kids or college freshman saying KD was their favorite player and guy they emulated.

These facts lend to the notion that KD will never be viewed as greater than Kobe at the current trajectory.


I can't get behind that. Imagine Durant in OKC with a less talented, more restrained PG like Lowry, or Holliday. He probably has a championship in OKC and maybe still plays there. Point being I can't blame anyone for leaving OKC, and I can't blame Durant for not winning a championship with Westbrook

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Jeffy25
07-28-2018, 12:47 PM
I can't get behind that. Imagine Durant in OKC with a less talented, more restrained PG like Lowry, or Holliday. He probably has a championship in OKC and maybe still plays there. Point being I can't blame anyone for leaving OKC, and I can't blame Durant for not winning a championship with Westbrook

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Couldn't agree more.

Westbrook is the crutch that killed the Thunders dynasty.

Harden, Ibaka, Adams, Durant wins chips for years if they had traded Westbrook to Houston instead of Harden.

Westbrook is stat padding version of Allen Iverson. I can't stand the guy, my least favorite player in the NBA today who has no basketball iq and is ultimately why Durant didn't stay. All my opinion of course. But I blame Westbrook for the lack of a Thunder dynasty with Durant, the superior player.

beasted86
07-28-2018, 01:50 PM
I can't get behind that. Imagine Durant in OKC with a less talented, more restrained PG like Lowry, or Holliday. He probably has a championship in OKC and maybe still plays there. Point being I can't blame anyone for leaving OKC, and I can't blame Durant for not winning a championship with Westbrook

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So if supposedly Westbrook was the barrier... can you not blame him for his complete lack of leadership to put pressure on Westbrook to get in line or for management to get him out the door?

It's like Durant only grew this imitation alpha tongue in the past 2 seasons.

MygirlhatesCod
07-28-2018, 01:55 PM
So if supposedly Westbrook was the barrier... can you not blame him for his complete lack of leadership to put pressure on Westbrook to get in line or for management to get him out the door?

It's like Durant only grew this imitation alpha tongue in the past 2 seasons.

its always KD's fault! he is the reason for global warming and traffic. plus, I heard he was behind 9/11.

beasted86
07-28-2018, 02:03 PM
Couldn't agree more.

Westbrook is the crutch that killed the Thunders dynasty.

Harden, Ibaka, Adams, Durant wins chips for years if they had traded Westbrook to Houston instead of Harden.

Westbrook is stat padding version of Allen Iverson. I can't stand the guy, my least favorite player in the NBA today who has no basketball iq and is ultimately why Durant didn't stay. All my opinion of course. But I blame Westbrook for the lack of a Thunder dynasty with Durant, the superior player.

You guys are discussing this as though Thunder had their hands tied.

Do you think Thunder couldn't have moved Westbrook for Lilliard? Or Kyrie? There are a bunch of ways if KD put pressure on them ahead of time or gave an ultimatum while in free agency.

Instead he simply felt within himself he couldn't beat GSW no matter what team he was surrounded with.

YAALREADYKNO
07-28-2018, 02:34 PM
Nah

nastynice
07-28-2018, 02:40 PM
Kobe is more consistent with tighter playoff defenses hounding him IMO.

Jordan, Kobe, Wade, Bron are better at getting theirs when defenses amp up. KD has it easy with Curry sucking in the defense, when playoff defenses key in on him I don't think he's at the level of other all time greats.

Kobes not more consistent. He's arguably the biggest star chucker in history

Kd is already a better scorer than everyone you mentioned except Jordan. I do believe when all said and done, and as he keeps developing his game a couple more years, as a pure scorer he will go down as one of the best, tier with Jordan and kareem

GREATNESS ONE
07-28-2018, 03:55 PM
LMao

lakers squad
07-28-2018, 04:22 PM
ahh, the old fundamental argument.

Name of the game is put the ball in the hole, any way possible. Style points don't count.

I don't know, Kobe sure was fun to watch! He would leave me scratching my head saying how in the he'll he did that! KOBE would have game's were you just couldn't take your eyes off the screen in anticipation for what he was going to do next! Jordan is the only other guy I've watched to do that to me literally almost every game you watched him!

mrblisterdundee
07-28-2018, 04:23 PM
No lol. 1 of them could take a team to a championship, the other had to run to an MVP DPOY and all star to win his.

I don't remember Shaq being mentioned.

TrueFan420
07-28-2018, 04:30 PM
I don't remember Shaq being mentioned.

Lol

LakersEaglesLA
07-28-2018, 05:47 PM
KD is already a better player. like him or not its truth. biased aside I find it hard to believe anyone would select Kobe over KD in a draft with hindsight.

Durant Momma wouldn't take him over KOBE! Lol are you Trolling

LakersEaglesLA
07-28-2018, 05:57 PM
Forget analytics, if you are a fan of an opposing team in the playoffs WHO Scares you MORE (KOBE or DURANT) thats how you Know who is Greater!

nastynice
07-28-2018, 06:32 PM
Durant Momma wouldn't take him over KOBE! Lol are you Trolling

I think there's a lot of people who would take kd over kobe, including lots of bball execs.

It's always hard to compare current players to legends because there's still so much room for growth and success, makes it hard to try and predict what to expect from kd for the rest of his career.

As far as a snapshot of each players peak, they are very comparable. I would expect kd to end up in that kobe Duncan tier, tier 2,when it's all done.

Heediot
07-28-2018, 07:09 PM
Kobes not more consistent. He's arguably the biggest star chucker in history

Kd is already a better scorer than everyone you mentioned except Jordan. I do believe when all said and done, and as he keeps developing his game a couple more years, as a pure scorer he will go down as one of the best, tier with Jordan and kareem
He is a better regular season pure scorer vs..bron Kobe wade.

Bostonjorge
07-28-2018, 07:25 PM
I can find a number of examples where Durant led the Thunder to a win by himself while Westbrook sucked ***.

Here is one notable example
https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201605080OKC.html

The Spurs of 2016 were not a bad defensive team at all.

Westbrook averaged 25 a game and Adams was getting 12 rebounds a game. Adams dominated old man Duncan that series. Ibaka and Adams got you 11 points a game, 11 a game is enough for Kobe to beat that Spurs team (Westbrook 25 a game not needed). Spurs also only had one player on the All Defensive team. Good team, good defense but not great. Kobe beat a much stronger and special Spurs team with far less help.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2008-nba-western-conference-finals-spurs-vs-lakers.html

Kobe beat the defending Champs Spurs here. Kobe's help all series was Gasol with 2 more points a game then Adams but less rebounds and Odom 1 more point a game with less rebounds. Thatís all Kobe needed to beat this truly elite team. No 25 a game Westbrook needed. Spurs had.

Two First All NBA players Dunacn and Bowen.

Two All NBA players Duncan and Ginobli

Defending Finals MVP Parker

#5 in MVP Duncan

Give Kobe a 25 a game scorer for help and he leads Okc to back to back championship.

GREATNESS ONE
07-28-2018, 07:30 PM
I don't know, Kobe sure was fun to watch! He would leave me scratching my head saying how in the he'll he did that! KOBE would have game's were you just couldn't take your eyes off the screen in anticipation for what he was going to do next! Jordan is the only other guy I've watched to do that to me literally almost every game you watched him!

Donít bother, Kobe did everything, two broken fingers still played, all sorts of injuries still willed his way to play. When other players would rest, not Kobe, this ďeffiencyĒ **** is hilarious, just a bunch of non Lakers fans who barely watched, I havenít missed a game in 23years and also a Avid NBA fan. People will probably call me a SuperFan but whatever, I just love the Lakers. Itís funny to me how Kobe always fought against the wind, barely got calls (MJ/Rape allegations) but still was a hound defensively and a repertoire offensively that has been rarely matched. I just like to pop in and read some of these comments, my favorite is the youngsters who never watched MJ or just think Kobe Bryant is a 11-15 player lmfao.

ewing
07-28-2018, 07:39 PM
I can't get behind that. Imagine Durant in OKC with a less talented, more restrained PG like Lowry, or Holliday. He probably has a championship in OKC and maybe still plays there. Point being I can't blame anyone for leaving OKC, and I can't blame Durant for not winning a championship with Westbrook

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Why canít you. They got to game 7 of the wcf and he didnít close the series strong. I know you hate Westy but if you push GS to 7 you were capable of winning it all


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ewing
07-28-2018, 07:40 PM
Lot of haters in this thread


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Bostonjorge
07-28-2018, 08:10 PM
Durant is a elite weapon nothing more. He canít lead anything and needs to be led to be the player he is today. When Durant has to lead, no matter how super talented teammates he has he can only at best lead them to gate keeper status. When Durant donít have to lead he gets to play his game without his weaknesses of leadership effecting the team. Green leads GS and he keeps Durant in check. Green reminds him of what he was before he was being led and Durant follows like a elite soldier.

https://youtu.be/pOf7JipjtLc

https://youtu.be/IT2YMg4Wzn8


Kobe donít have to be reminded of anything when heís on the court. Great leadership makes everyone around you feel like champions. That kind of leadership can make even the greatest ďchuckerĒ a 5x champ.

Scoots
07-28-2018, 08:25 PM
Lot of haters in this thread

The names Kobe, LoBron, and KD bring in the haters ... this one has 2 of them.

Jamiecballer
07-28-2018, 09:23 PM
So if supposedly Westbrook was the barrier... can you not blame him for his complete lack of leadership to put pressure on Westbrook to get in line or for management to get him out the door?

It's like Durant only grew this imitation alpha tongue in the past 2 seasons.I dont think so. Personality wise, Durant is more Pippen and Westbrook is Jordan. Could you imagine Pippen convincing Jordan of anything he didnt already believe? I can't.

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Jamiecballer
07-28-2018, 09:24 PM
Instead he simply felt within himself he couldn't beat GSW no matter what team he was surrounded with.What's it like to actually be inside Durant? Must be a real trip.

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Jamiecballer
07-28-2018, 09:36 PM
I think we need to remember something here. As recently as 12 months ago people thought Westbrook was a real MVP. Then his flaws became more scrutinized and exposed. This didnt just happen, this is what the smaller group of anti Westbrook fans have been saying for years. So now you have to replay those Durant years with some sort of compassion for what he had to work with. GS represents the antithesis to Russell Westbrook.

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ewing
07-28-2018, 10:22 PM
I think we need to remember something here. As recently as 12 months ago people thought Westbrook was a real MVP. Then his flaws became more scrutinized and exposed. This didnt just happen, this is what the smaller group of anti Westbrook fans have been saying for years. So now you have to replay those Durant years with some sort of compassion for what he had to work with. GS represents the antithesis to Russell Westbrook.

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You arenít entitled to Jason Kidd as a PG just bc you can score. Despite his flaws KD was better off with Russell then 99% of his other options. They were on the cusp and he ran


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ewing
07-28-2018, 10:30 PM
Poor guy he had to play with Russel Westbrook. He would have been better off with Andy Rautins


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Scoots
07-28-2018, 11:58 PM
You arenít entitled to Jason Kidd as a PG just bc you can score. Despite his flaws KD was better off with Russell then 99% of his other options. They were on the cusp and he ran

It's pretty funny you chose Kidd ... heard a story just recently where Kidd was telling teammates not to listen to the coach, Kidd wasn't going to run the plays called anyhow. Maybe not the best example to use :)

ewing
07-29-2018, 12:24 AM
It's pretty funny you chose Kidd ... heard a story just recently where Kidd was telling teammates not to listen to the coach, Kidd wasn't going to run the plays called anyhow. Maybe not the best example to use :)

You donít get it


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beasted86
07-29-2018, 12:38 AM
I think we need to remember something here. As recently as 12 months ago people thought Westbrook was a real MVP. Then his flaws became more scrutinized and exposed. This didnt just happen, this is what the smaller group of anti Westbrook fans have been saying for years. So now you have to replay those Durant years with some sort of compassion for what he had to work with. GS represents the antithesis to Russell Westbrook.

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Westbrook was/is a great player and OKC would be hot garbage without him.

Yes he pads his stats. Doesn't change his unquestionable value for that team.

beasted86
07-29-2018, 12:42 AM
What's it like to actually be inside Durant? Must be a real trip.

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What other explanation is there to take like $10M less per year to join a team that just beat you? KD wanted the easier route. Not hating on him at all.

He's a great player and puts up great stats, is just his legacy has surely taken a big hit. I don't see a way he finishes ahead of Kobe on most analysts commentators lists.

Jeffy25
07-29-2018, 04:14 AM
You guys are discussing this as though Thunder had their hands tied.

Do you think Thunder couldn't have moved Westbrook for Lilliard? Or Kyrie? There are a bunch of ways if KD put pressure on them ahead of time or gave an ultimatum while in free agency.

Instead he simply felt within himself he couldn't beat GSW no matter what team he was surrounded with.

Oh totally.

The Thunder became great because they did an amazing scouting and development job. They deserve every credit there is for what they did. It just sucks that when it was time to choose their long term roster, they chose the wrong guard to build around.


If they had traded Westbrook to Houston instead of Harden (and likely netted a stronger return) they were a dynasty waiting to happen in restrospect.

Jeffy25
07-29-2018, 04:16 AM
I don't know, Kobe sure was fun to watch! He would leave me scratching my head saying how in the he'll he did that! KOBE would have game's were you just couldn't take your eyes off the screen in anticipation for what he was going to do next! Jordan is the only other guy I've watched to do that to me literally almost every game you watched him!

So he was exciting to watch?

So was Iverson, so is Westbrook.

But being exciting to watch doesn't make them great players.


I'm not attacking, I'm just stating that being a draw and attention grabbing talent doesn't translate to wins (though in some cases it does).

Jeffy25
07-29-2018, 04:25 AM
Westbrook averaged 25 a game and Adams was getting 12 rebounds a game. Adams dominated old man Duncan that series. Ibaka and Adams got you 11 points a game, 11 a game is enough for Kobe to beat that Spurs team (Westbrook 25 a game not needed). Spurs also only had one player on the All Defensive team. Good team, good defense but not great. Kobe beat a much stronger and special Spurs team with far less help.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2008-nba-western-conference-finals-spurs-vs-lakers.html

Kobe beat the defending Champs Spurs here. Kobe's help all series was Gasol with 2 more points a game then Adams but less rebounds and Odom 1 more point a game with less rebounds. Thatís all Kobe needed to beat this truly elite team. No 25 a game Westbrook needed. Spurs had.

Two First All NBA players Dunacn and Bowen.

Two All NBA players Duncan and Ginobli

Defending Finals MVP Parker

#5 in MVP Duncan

Give Kobe a 25 a game scorer for help and he leads Okc to back to back championship.

We've seen him attempt to take the scoring load, and it not work out. You feel that if you give Kobe another scorer producing 25 a game, he won't lose?

Shaq scoring 25 a game in a series, and they lost (same Spurs team)
https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2003-nba-western-conference-semifinals-lakers-vs-spurs.html

Maybe if Kobe didn't take 27 shots per game while Shaq took 17 per game, coming off a 3 peat where Shaq was the man no less.

I don't know that I can give a burn so deep and so accurate as this.





If you go look back through that 3 peat the Lakers had with baby Kobe, the Lakers didn't struggle when it was Shaq's team, they only struggled when Kobe tried to take over. And it ended because Kobe thought it should be his team, not Shaq's. Remember that Kings series the year before? The only playoff series where Kobe took more shots than Shaq per minute? That went to 7, and the refs had to be paid off. Then they sweep the Nets and Shaq took back over the scoring load. All the other series, Shaq at least shared the scoring load, and they won easily. That's the only time Kobe thought it was his to take over, and they struggled. Somehow, Lakers fans have erased this from their memories.

So Shaq leaves, wins a chip in Miami as an old man, and the Lakers have to rebuild.

This is why I hate Kobe. It's not about the team, it's about himself.

Jeffy25
07-29-2018, 04:50 AM
https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2008-nba-western-conference-finals-spurs-vs-lakers.html



Btw, this was one of Kobe's best series of his lifetime and a lot of what carries him in the all-time great discussions.

For every series I pointed out in my post, he has a series like this.

WhiteShadow42
07-29-2018, 11:19 AM
Kobe has 9 first team and 12 total. Only Duncan has more total but less first teams then Kobe.

Durant is 7 foot and never dominated the post like Kobe did. Being 7 foot is the only strength I give to KD over Kobe.

Definitely his length is a major reason why he is so dominant on offense. Agreed.

WhiteShadow42
07-29-2018, 11:27 AM
Kobes not more consistent. He's arguably the biggest star chucker in history

Kd is already a better scorer than everyone you mentioned except Jordan. I do believe when all said and done, and as he keeps developing his game a couple more years, as a pure scorer he will go down as one of the best, tier with Jordan and kareem

Got to admit. Kobeís 2006-2007 season was Wilt like. He had a crap team and all the defenses were totally focused on him and he still dominated. Would Durant be able to do that? Probably but we will never know because he always has had a superstar by his side.

Jamiecballer
07-29-2018, 12:41 PM
You arenít entitled to Jason Kidd as a PG just bc you can score. Despite his flaws KD was better off with Russell then 99% of his other options. They were on the cusp and he ran


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkHow long has OKC been on the cusp? They think they are on it now. They thought they were on it last year. They were on it with Durant. They were on it with Durant and Harden.

It's the curse of having a guy with the athletic ability to run circles around the league but who can't effectively play a team game to always feel close.

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Jamiecballer
07-29-2018, 12:44 PM
Westbrook was/is a great player and OKC would be hot garbage without him.

Yes he pads his stats. Doesn't change his unquestionable value for that team.So was Iverson. Knowing what you know, if you were, say Kobe, would you put your legacy in Iversons hands and join him in your prime?

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Jamiecballer
07-29-2018, 12:45 PM
What other explanation is there to take like $10M less per year to join a team that just beat you? KD wanted the easier route. Not hating on him at all.

He's a great player and puts up great stats, is just his legacy has surely taken a big hit. I don't see a way he finishes ahead of Kobe on most analysts commentators lists.If that's the only reason you can imagine then there is zero point in discussing

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Chronz
07-29-2018, 01:25 PM
Definitely his length is a major reason why he is so dominant on offense. Agreed.

Definitely just talented, his flaws are entirely mental and its why he never wanted to lead. Hes great when hes jumps in on a fight in the middle of working itself out so he can hop onto the obvious winner.

He won't pass moses much less kobe

Bostonjorge
07-29-2018, 01:38 PM
We've seen him attempt to take the scoring load, and it not work out. You feel that if you give Kobe another scorer producing 25 a game, he won't lose?

Shaq scoring 25 a game in a series, and they lost (same Spurs team)
https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2003-nba-western-conference-semifinals-lakers-vs-spurs.html

Maybe if Kobe didn't take 27 shots per game while Shaq took 17 per game, coming off a 3 peat where Shaq was the man no less.

I don't know that I can give a burn so deep and so accurate as this.





If you go look back through that 3 peat the Lakers had with baby Kobe, the Lakers didn't struggle when it was Shaq's team, they only struggled when Kobe tried to take over. And it ended because Kobe thought it should be his team, not Shaq's. Remember that Kings series the year before? The only playoff series where Kobe took more shots than Shaq per minute? That went to 7, and the refs had to be paid off. Then they sweep the Nets and Shaq took back over the scoring load. All the other series, Shaq at least shared the scoring load, and they won easily. That's the only time Kobe thought it was his to take over, and they struggled. Somehow, Lakers fans have erased this from their memories.

So Shaq leaves, wins a chip in Miami as an old man, and the Lakers have to rebuild.

This is why I hate Kobe. It's not about the team, it's about himself.

Itís not that we forget. We just remember the very next year Kobe destroyed that same Spurs team. Kobe led ďShaqsĒ team in Scoring, assists, steals and #3 in rebounds. Once again Kobe is the guy to take down Duncan after he wins a title. So Kobe showed he could lead this Laker team to another 3 peat. Kobe owned Championship Duncan. Kobe losing to the back to back MVP only enhances his legacy since that what it took to beat him.

Iím not going to pretend Shaq was not the man for the lakers. Shaq was the most dominant player ever. A much lesser version of Shaq took down Jordan and Pippen. Lakers Shaq would of swept Jordan and Pippen. So teen Kobe playing behind that force is not surprising. It just Shaq weight kept going up and he didnít want to pass the keys to Kobe. Itís a guarantee that Kobe and Shaq would of won 3 more like Shaq and Kobe did. Both guys are to blame for the break up. Both guys found redemption, Shaq with a Ring and Kobe with 3 straight finals trips and the rare back to back titles.

Durant on the other hand will never be a Kobe or Shaq. Durant is chasing Curry in the rankings.

Bostonjorge
07-29-2018, 01:46 PM
So was Iverson. Knowing what you know, if you were, say Kobe, would you put your legacy in Iversons hands and join him in your prime?

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Kobe and Iverson win and win big.

ewing
07-29-2018, 08:48 PM
How long has OKC been on the cusp? They think they are on it now. They thought they were on it last year. They were on it with Durant. They were on it with Durant and Harden.

It's the curse of having a guy with the athletic ability to run circles around the league but who can't effectively play a team game to always feel close.

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They went to game 7 of the WFC. That is a very successful season. You don't get to go but they didn't win the last game it's b/c Russell is a loser. He clearly inst.

Scoots
07-29-2018, 09:04 PM
I don't understand why people are talking about leadership ... Jordan wasn't a leader and he's at the top of the list.

ewing
07-29-2018, 09:12 PM
I don't understand why people are talking about leadership ... Jordan wasn't a leader and he's at the top of the list.

Of course he was a leader.

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cmellofan15
07-29-2018, 09:23 PM
I don't understand why people are talking about leadership ... Jordan wasn't a leader and he's at the top of the list.

because it's cute and a baseless argument so they don't have to provide facts, clips, stats, or data.

Chronz
07-29-2018, 10:02 PM
I don't understand why people are talking about leadership ... Jordan wasn't a leader and he's at the top of the list.
He tamed a wild beast who went on to unite north america and north Korea

WhiteShadow42
07-29-2018, 11:04 PM
Definitely just talented, his flaws are entirely mental and its why he never wanted to lead. Hes great when hes jumps in on a fight in the middle of working itself out so he can hop onto the obvious winner.

He won't pass moses much less kobe

Man you brought up great memories with Moses. No one talks about that guy. Very underrated. Agreed Durant kind of panics towards the end of games. Last year he did pretty good. But this year I was watching Curry kind of real him in and make sure he doesnít go all OKC like in the fourth. You brought up another great point about Kobeís mentality and will in the toughest situations. Durant is not there.

JohnDee
07-30-2018, 04:45 AM
Durant will never surpass Kobe in his career. Never ever.....

Jamiecballer
07-30-2018, 06:50 AM
They went to game 7 of the WFC. That is a very successful season. You don't get to go but they didn't win the last game it's b/c Russell is a loser. He clearly inst.Then I can't say that about anyone I suppose because no team with a Kevin Durant would fail to be really good. Bummer.

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ewing
07-30-2018, 08:54 AM
Then I can't say that about anyone I suppose because no team with a Kevin Durant would fail to be really good. Bummer.

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you can can say whatever you want but the you can't win a title with star player "x" that has been on winning teams and had playoff success will always be a bad argument. You can't win a title with me as the starting PG. You can with Russell Westbrook

Jamiecballer
07-30-2018, 08:59 AM
you can can say whatever you want but the you can't win a title with star player "x" that has been on winning teams and had playoff success will always be a bad argument. You can't win a title with me as the starting PG. You can with Russell WestbrookYour proof is what, all those rings? You and Russ and Iverson will all end up with the same number of rings.

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Hawkeye15
07-30-2018, 09:21 AM
I can't get behind that. Imagine Durant in OKC with a less talented, more restrained PG like Lowry, or Holliday. He probably has a championship in OKC and maybe still plays there. Point being I can't blame anyone for leaving OKC, and I can't blame Durant for not winning a championship with Westbrook

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this is not to defend Durant (I physically can't do that), but Westbrook would likely be THE most difficult MVP caliber player to play alongside I have ever seen. More so than Iverson even. There are 5 times a game that Westy does something that makes me go, "damnnnnnnnnnnn, how did he even do that?". Then there are 5 times a game that he does something that makes me go, "what the **** is he thinking?".

Hawkeye15
07-30-2018, 09:22 AM
Why canít you. They got to game 7 of the wcf and he didnít close the series strong. I know you hate Westy but if you push GS to 7 you were capable of winning it all


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correct. Durant/OKC had them on the ropes, Durant choked it away, then ran with his tail between his legs to the group of bullies that just beat him up.

ewing
07-30-2018, 09:25 AM
Your proof is what, all those rings? You and Russ and Iverson will all end up with the same number of rings.

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A lot of guys haven't won a title. Its usually not b/c of some fatal flaw. If you can get to the point where you are literally a lucky bounce away you are good enough. You would have an argument is he was a guy that always played terrible in big moments but he's not. How about KD? He was too stupid to take Curry to a mid range spot catch it with his back to basket, turn and shoot it in his face. Instead he tried to take him off the bounce over and over from 30 despite having like a foot on him. Did KD's bad decisions make me think he was incapable of winning a title? No. Same thing with Westy. Yeah he has flaws and you don't like his game but unless you are totally blinded by hate you have you realize the right team with Westbrook can absolutely win a title

MygirlhatesCod
07-30-2018, 10:15 AM
because it's cute and a baseless argument so they don't have to provide facts, clips, stats, or data.

my thoughts exactly.

MygirlhatesCod
07-30-2018, 10:25 AM
A lot of guys haven't won a title. Its usually not b/c of some fatal flaw. If you can get to the point where you are literally a lucky bounce away you are good enough. You would have an argument is he was a guy that always played terrible in big moments but he's not. How about KD? He was too stupid to take Curry to a mid range spot catch it with his back to basket, turn and shoot it in his face. Instead he tried to take him off the bounce over and over from 30 despite having like a foot on him. Did KD's bad decisions make me think he was incapable of winning a title? No. Same thing with Westy. Yeah he has flaws and you don't like his game but unless you are totally blinded by hate you have you realize the right team with Westbrook can absolutely win a title

what team Is that? its difficult to have a team play at full heart when the ball handler only involves his team for his benefit. how often will players want to run back and forth at full effort just to watch russ try and make himself look better?

Heediot
07-30-2018, 11:10 AM
A lot of guys haven't won a title. Its usually not b/c of some fatal flaw. If you can get to the point where you are literally a lucky bounce away you are good enough. You would have an argument is he was a guy that always played terrible in big moments but he's not. How about KD? He was too stupid to take Curry to a mid range spot catch it with his back to basket, turn and shoot it in his face. Instead he tried to take him off the bounce over and over from 30 despite having like a foot on him. Did KD's bad decisions make me think he was incapable of winning a title? No. Same thing with Westy. Yeah he has flaws and you don't like his game but unless you are totally blinded by hate you have you realize the right team with Westbrook can absolutely win a title

a lot of people dislike certain guys like rw, kobe, melo, kyrie, iverson, dmc etc... but even the well run teams with good ball movement would lick their chops adding one of those guys. gs added cousins, spurs added gay and were highly interested in kyrie in a trade. you can win with those guys built around a proper team and complementary players. i even think melo has a chance in houston, just because his fit in okc wasn't the greatest doesn't mean he can't contribute to another team and or legit contender. we will see if it works out for him. i think westbrook on the spurs would be crazy under pops tutelage.

MygirlhatesCod
07-30-2018, 11:20 AM
a lot of people dislike certain guys like rw, kobe, melo, kyrie, iverson, dmc etc... but even the well run teams with good ball movement would lick their chops adding one of those guys. gs added cousins, spurs added gay and were highly interested in kyrie in a trade. you can win with those guys built around a proper team and complementary players. i even think melo has a chance in houston, just because his fit in okc wasn't the greatest doesn't mean he can't contribute to another team and or legit contender. we will see if it works out for him. i think westbrook on the spurs would be crazy under pops tutelage.

interesting. what kind of player do you think pop would turn him into?

Heediot
07-30-2018, 11:23 AM
interesting. what kind of player do you think pop would turn him into?

tony parker type role but getting him higher percentage looks according to his strengths. both guys are slashers with rw probably better attacking the rim and parker on the mid-range. pops would probably educate him on certain looks and how to find his mates even better, his demand for defense and playing within the team might get rw head out of his ***...

Jamiecballer
07-30-2018, 11:37 AM
A lot of guys haven't won a title. Its usually not b/c of some fatal flaw. If you can get to the point where you are literally a lucky bounce away you are good enough. You would have an argument is he was a guy that always played terrible in big moments but he's not. How about KD? He was too stupid to take Curry to a mid range spot catch it with his back to basket, turn and shoot it in his face. Instead he tried to take him off the bounce over and over from 30 despite having like a foot on him. Did KD's bad decisions make me think he was incapable of winning a title? No. Same thing with Westy. Yeah he has flaws and you don't like his game but unless you are totally blinded by hate you have you realize the right team with Westbrook can absolutely win a titleWell of course it is theoretically possible for Westbrook to win a title. Hes a better version of Iverson after all. A model has already been provided for this. Plop him on the 2000-01 Sixers and off you go. Except in today's day and age you can't put bruisers all over the court who can't shoot so even that thought experiment probably fails. Yep, just changed my mind on that one. You can find tough defenders and selfless guys to surround him but in this era without a good 3 point shot you still lose based on the math alone.

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WaDe03
07-30-2018, 11:41 AM
If that's the case, then scoring from further should have been easier for Kobe, but Durant is the better deep range, 3 point, and mid range shooter

No it shouldnít have lol.

ewing
07-30-2018, 11:42 AM
what team Is that? its difficult to have a team play at full heart when the ball handler only involves his team for his benefit. how often will players want to run back and forth at full effort just to watch russ try and make himself look better?

This just shows how far you will go to buy into the narrative. The thunder strength was defense, rebounding, loose balls... if you want to blame last year offensive troubles on Westy you can and it probably has some merit but they played hard and think that is actually a reflection of his leadership

WaDe03
07-30-2018, 11:42 AM
I don't remember Shaq being mentioned.

As in Curry Green and Klay.

mngopher35
07-30-2018, 01:03 PM
Westbrook in the playoffs since 2012 finals run:
25.3 PER, .16 WS/48, 9.7 BPM, 108 ORTG

Durant in the playoffs since 2012 finals run:
24 PER, .194 WS/48, 5.5 BPM 115 ORTG

Looks like the big difference stat wise between them is KD upped his WS% and ORTG jumping onto an all time great team (best two in his career last two seasons, had 110 ORTG before move and .155 WS/48). Rings wise only one of them ran to a champion/73 wins team without them. So the biggest differences already appear to come simply from the team one may have jumped to (and the resulting load on Westy). I really don't get all the overrating of KD, have done this with guys like Harden before too. If you wanna use stats to compare KD to past greats he might look a bit better but then you should not be ignoring that same stuff for Westbrook/Harden etc in these all time discussions.

That's why I think looking back people will be able to see the obvious, someone who struggles when needed to be a lead superstar but who took an extremely easy route to boost rings/easy looks. He looks much better when he is picking on 1v1 matchups set up by teammates/system as opposed to creating as the best player for his team type thing. When forced to carry even a little more of the load we see him fall off in multiple ways but specifically his efficiency. This is part of why he knows he isn't and doesn't want to be a leader imo, he can't deal with taking on the other defense's attention. He knows someone else has to take on that role for him to be the most effective as opposed to raising his own level of play/becoming capable of being that type of player.

MygirlhatesCod
07-30-2018, 01:20 PM
This just shows how far you will go to buy into the narrative. The thunder strength was defense, rebounding, loose balls... if you want to blame last year offensive troubles on Westy you can and it probably has some merit but they played hard and think that is actually a reflection of his leadership

who else would there be to blame? everything ran through him. and rightfully so. he is the best player on the team. I just think he has the ability to make his team better but rather stick with what makes him happy.

Jamiecballer
07-30-2018, 01:36 PM
does nobody but me think Westbrook needed to take a backseat to Durant when they were teammates and simply didn't? like how does that not affect Durant. his numbers look insanely impressive for someone who had to depend on Westbrook to make good basketball reads and decisions.

the guys USG has not changed really from his years in OKC to his 2 years in GS, that is insane. Fitting into an exceptional team of passing and all-nba talents he gets the ball as much as he did when he was pretty much just playing with Westbrook. INSANE. think about that. the best scorer in the game hovered around 30 USG playing alongside Westbrook. that it downright point guard derelict of duty.

mngopher35
07-30-2018, 01:43 PM
does nobody but me think Westbrook needed to take a backseat to Durant when they were teammates and simply didn't? like how does that not affect Durant. his numbers look insanely impressive for someone who had to depend on Westbrook to make good basketball reads and decisions. the guys USG has not changed really from his years in OKC to his 2 years in GS, that is insane. Fitting into an exceptional team of passing and all-nba talents he gets the ball as much as he did when he was pretty much just playing with Westbrook. INSANE.

It's a two way street, KD also needed to step up but rarely seemed to want that role. He ran to a place he wouldn't be relied on in nearly that same way so why would people ignore that aspect? He made it clear as day his attitude/lack of leadership/what he wanted had nothing to do with carrying a team on that level so he let Westbrook do so.

Westy had his usage go up even with PG/Melo there let alone the drastic jump in years without KD and none of them (like all time level usage). He clearly changes usage based on teammates, what won't change is that it will always be high as the main creator. Again Westbrook changes based on teammates and KD? His has stayed similar or dropped a little bit. So it seems like it's actually KD who is this same type of player no matter his surroundings (someone needing to feed of creators/space/1v1's off others as opposed to leading a team).

You saw that data and blamed Westy immediately without realizing how obvious the entire context points to KD being the one incapable or unwilling to do more/step up and take some of that role from him.

Hawkeye15
07-30-2018, 01:48 PM
does nobody but me think Westbrook needed to take a backseat to Durant when they were teammates and simply didn't? like how does that not affect Durant. his numbers look insanely impressive for someone who had to depend on Westbrook to make good basketball reads and decisions.

the guys USG has not changed really from his years in OKC to his 2 years in GS, that is insane. Fitting into an exceptional team of passing and all-nba talents he gets the ball as much as he did when he was pretty much just playing with Westbrook. INSANE. think about that. the best scorer in the game hovered around 30 USG playing alongside Westbrook. that it downright point guard derelict of duty.

Durant was showing us all along he isn't an alpha though, despite what we wanted from him. He made a pure beta move, which shouldn't surprise us. Great players, or people in general, go get what they desire. Durant could have taken the reigns, instead he let the alpha (Westbrook) do whatever he liked.

Pure beta personality, so his move fits perfectly. For him. We just aren't used to players of his caliber being such a follower.

ewing
07-30-2018, 02:14 PM
does nobody but me think Westbrook needed to take a backseat to Durant when they were teammates and simply didn't? like how does that not affect Durant. his numbers look insanely impressive for someone who had to depend on Westbrook to make good basketball reads and decisions.

the guys USG has not changed really from his years in OKC to his 2 years in GS, that is insane. Fitting into an exceptional team of passing and all-nba talents he gets the ball as much as he did when he was pretty much just playing with Westbrook. INSANE. think about that. the best scorer in the game hovered around 30 USG playing alongside Westbrook. that it downright point guard derelict of duty.

I get that Russell shoots the ball too much and forces somethings but KD was getting his 30 points and 20 shot attempts. Again, i don't think your criticism is legit. Russell isn't a great play maker and demands the ball a lot. OKC as a team should get better looks then they do IMO and a lot of that has to do with Westy. It didn't stop KD from getting looks though. Russell actually hurt the role players a lot more if you ask me.

Jamiecballer
07-30-2018, 02:34 PM
It's a two way street, KD also needed to step up but rarely seemed to want that role. He ran to a place he wouldn't be relied on in nearly that same way so why would people ignore that aspect? He made it clear as day his attitude/lack of leadership/what he wanted had nothing to do with carrying a team on that level so he let Westbrook do so.

Westy had his usage go up even with PG/Melo there let alone the drastic jump in years without KD and none of them (like all time level usage). He clearly changes usage based on teammates, what won't change is that it will always be high as the main creator. Again Westbrook changes based on teammates and KD? His has stayed similar or dropped a little bit. So it seems like it's actually KD who is this same type of player no matter his surroundings (someone needing to feed of creators/space/1v1's off others as opposed to leading a team).

You saw that data and blamed Westy immediately without realizing how obvious the entire context points to KD being the one incapable or unwilling to do more/step up and take some of that role from him.Yeah, I dont view it the way that you do.

Let's try an experiment. Imagine Jordan didnt have Pippen, he had Gordan - a player similar to his own ability with a similar intensity and personality. Gordan plays point guard and view himself as every bit as important as Jordan. You dont think that probably changes the kind of numbers Jordan can put up? To me it's a no-brainer that it has a substantial impact. Westbrook is Durants Gordan, a guy who should have taken a backseat but always felt like he was every bit as good.



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ewing
07-30-2018, 02:47 PM
Yeah, I dont view it the way that you do.

Let's try an experiment. Imagine Jordan didnt have Pippen, he had Gordan - a player similar to his own ability with a similar intensity and personality. Gordan plays point guard and view himself as every bit as important as Jordan. You dont think that probably changes the kind of numbers Jordan can put up? To me it's a no-brainer that it has a substantial impact. Westbrook is Durants Gordan, a guy who should have taken a backseat but always felt like he was every bit as good.



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even your comparisons are based on fantasy

mngopher35
07-30-2018, 02:48 PM
Yeah, I dont view it the way that you do.

Let's try an experiment. Imagine Jordan didnt have Pippen, he had Gordan - a player similar to his own ability with a similar intensity and personality. Gordan plays point guard and view himself as every bit as important as Jordan. You dont think that probably changes the kind of numbers Jordan can put up? To me it's a no-brainer that it has a substantial impact. Westbrook is Durants Gordan, a guy who should have taken a backseat but always felt like he was every bit as good.



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I think it could but Jordan is clearly different than Durant as well, he didn't struggle to create in nearly the same ways and that's an important factor. If KD=Jordan much of this would be moot from the start but this is where we must differ I guess. I totally get that Westy can hold Durant back. You don't seem to get that KD could have also stepped up and that's what I would expect of Jordan no matter who he played with TBH.

Durant's usage actually went down in the RS Harden left. Durant's playoff usage 2016 when he left was the 2nd highest it had been in OKC for a playoff run and it happened to also be his 2nd worse ORTG in the playoffs in his career (2010 was worst for both). So Westy wasn't completely stopping KD at all from getting touches, he just wasn't setting them up in extremely easy 1v1 fashion etc and KD was forced to create (he couldn't very well so he ran). To this day the highest playoff usage he ever had was 2016 the year he left his team, he didn't want that type of responsibility. He just doesn't want to (and has stuggled when asked) have to create in the ways you are saying he can.

nastynice
07-30-2018, 02:49 PM
Durant was showing us all along he isn't an alpha though, despite what we wanted from him. He made a pure beta move, which shouldn't surprise us. Great players, or people in general, go get what they desire. Durant could have taken the reigns, instead he let the alpha (Westbrook) do whatever he liked.

Pure beta personality, so his move fits perfectly. For him. We just aren't used to players of his caliber being such a follower.

Lebrons better than kd tho, he's a beta too. It's not all that uncommon

LakersEaglesLA
07-30-2018, 02:51 PM
I don't understand what Westbrook have to do with this... And it's not about twisting analytics to support a argument. WHY IS IT SOOOO HARD FOR PEOPLE ON THIS SITE TO LOOK AT TV AND JUDGE WHO THE BETTER MORE SKILLED AND TALENTED PLAYER IS?????? KOBE is EASY ANSWER!!

nastynice
07-30-2018, 02:54 PM
I don't understand what Westbrook have to do with this... And it's not about twisting analytics to support a argument. WHY IS IT SOOOO HARD FOR PEOPLE ON THIS SITE TO LOOK AT TV AND JUDGE WHO THE BETTER MORE SKILLED AND TALENTED PLAYER IS?????? KOBE is EASY ANSWER!!

Durant is more talented, that's not even a debate. Kobe is more skilled but Durants skills been trending up,hes still elevating his game

Jamiecballer
07-30-2018, 03:03 PM
even your comparisons are based on fantasyWell if you want to have conversations about how different players throughout history compare there is a lot of fantasy involved. It's not like Westbrooks, Iversons, Jordan's grow on trees.

Hmmm.... but imagine if they did!

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Jamiecballer
07-30-2018, 03:12 PM
I think it could but Jordan is clearly different than Durant as well, he didn't struggle to create in nearly the same ways and that's an important factor. If KD=Jordan much of this would be moot from the start but this is where we must differ I guess. I totally get that Westy can hold Durant back. You don't seem to get that KD could have also stepped up and that's what I would expect of Jordan no matter who he played with TBH.

Durant's usage actually went down in the RS Harden left, that's how he got his MVP with lower usage. Durant's playoff usage 2016 when he left was the 2nd highest it had been in OKC for a playoff run and it happened to also be his 2nd worse ORTG in the playoffs in his career (2010 was worst for both). So Westy wasn't completely stopping KD at all from getting touches, he just wasn't setting them up in extremely easy 1v1 fashion etc and KD was forced to create (he couldn't very well so he ran). To this day the highest playoff usage he ever had was 2016 the year he left his team, he didn't want that type of responsibility. He just doesn't want to (and has stuggled when asked) have to create in the ways you are saying he can.I get what you are saying, but that is why I created a fictional scenario. It's easy to say Jordan would have imposed his will but would he? Who of his era was comparable to Westbrook? There is no comparable in my opinion. Guys like Iverson or Westbrook do not grow on trees and I think we imagine them being far less headstrong than their play indicates.

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mngopher35
07-30-2018, 03:23 PM
I get what you are saying, but that is why I created a fictional scenario. It's easy to say Jordan would have imposed his will but would he? Who of his era was comparable to Westbrook? There is no comparable in my opinion. Guys like Iverson or Westbrook do not grow on trees and I think we imagine them being far less headstrong than their play indicates.

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I am saying we have tons of actual data of different scenarios and they all point to the same thing. Then he ran to a situation that fits all this context exactly as to the type of player he is. I don't think some MJ hypothetical makes much sense in order to ignore everything mentioned/all the actual stats and data over time. Durant isn't just magically going to become MJ and the lack of creating ability makes it a major flaw from the start imo.

When Harden left, when Westy was injured, when he took highest usage in 2016 playoffs and tons of scenarios in between and extended to GS at no point has KD ever stepped up his creating/usage and not fallen off when it mattered most to those high levels. He also has run from opportunities to do so and to a championship/73 win team without him once he failed in 2016 trying to carry a little more. I am going to base my analysis based on what we have seen moreso than trying to make a hypothetical with him and MJ matter. I just don't get the approach here and writing off what I have been saying in favor of it

valade16
07-30-2018, 03:23 PM
I get what you are saying, but that is why I created a fictional scenario. It's easy to say Jordan would have imposed his will but would he? Who of his era was comparable to Westbrook? There is no comparable in my opinion. Guys like Iverson or Westbrook do not grow on trees and I think we imagine them being far less headstrong than their play indicates.

Neither do MJ's. Yes, he would have imposed his will. I have yet to hear of a story, anecdote, or situation where MJ didn't do exactly that. I think of all the possible scenarios we can hypothetically conjure, MJ deferring is at or near the bottom of realistic outcomes.

beasted86
07-30-2018, 03:54 PM
Neither do MJ's. Yes, he would have imposed his will. I have yet to hear of a story, anecdote, or situation where MJ didn't do exactly that. I think of all the possible scenarios we can hypothetically conjure, MJ deferring is at or near the bottom of realistic outcomes.

We've heard the dream team stories also. Jordan was simply an alpha who could also walk the talk.

Hawkeye15
07-30-2018, 04:25 PM
Lebrons better than kd tho, he's a beta too. It's not all that uncommon

LeBron isn't a beta. At all. He actually grapped the steering wheel and won his rings. He didn't hop in the backseat and buckle up.

Jamiecballer
07-30-2018, 05:20 PM
Neither do MJ's. Yes, he would have imposed his will. I have yet to hear of a story, anecdote, or situation where MJ didn't do exactly that. I think of all the possible scenarios we can hypothetically conjure, MJ deferring is at or near the bottom of realistic outcomes.

i hear you. but just humour me. who are the highest profile point guards he ever played with. i was going to say Ron Harper, but then i double-checked. Harpers first year with the Bulls was the year MJ came back near the end, so not even Harper qualifies. MJ simply never had a comparable teammate.

i hear what y'all are saying but i don't believe, genuinely, that MJ wouldn't take a hit if he had Iverson as his point guard. not because he wouldn't try to put Iverson in his place, but because Iverson could not be prevented from calling his own number whenever he felt like it on the court.

valade16
07-30-2018, 05:28 PM
i hear you. but just humour me. who are the highest profile point guards he ever played with. i was going to say Ron Harper, but then i double-checked. Harpers first year with the Bulls was the year MJ came back near the end, so not even Harper qualifies. MJ simply never had a comparable teammate.

i hear what y'all are saying but i don't believe, genuinely, that MJ wouldn't take a hit if he had Iverson as his point guard. not because he wouldn't try to put Iverson in his place, but because Iverson could not be prevented from calling his own number whenever he felt like it on the court.

What does take a hit mean? Slightly lower stats? Sure, possibly. But he would still have been the alpha. The reason that the Bulls didn't have a ball dominant PG is because Pippen/MJ were the ones initiating the offense (or being the offense). The most likely scenario to the KD/Westy one would have been what happened between Shaq/Kobe where Kobe (or MJ in this case) pushes out the other for not being able to fall in line.

But acting like there's even a chance, a slight possibility that KD and MJ are the same it's just the uniqueness of their circumstances that dictated their different behaviors is ludicrous. I guess to sum up your hypothetical in the most direct terms, I don't know how MJ would have handled KD's situation in OKC other than to say, a lot differently than KD handled it.

mngopher35
07-30-2018, 05:35 PM
What does take a hit mean? Slightly lower stats? Sure, possibly. But he would still have been the alpha. The reason that the Bulls didn't have a ball dominant PG is because Pippen/MJ were the ones initiating the offense (or being the offense). The most likely scenario to the KD/Westy one would have been what happened between Shaq/Kobe where Kobe (or MJ in this case) pushes out the other for not being able to fall in line.

But acting like there's even a chance, a slight possibility that KD and MJ are the same it's just the uniqueness of their circumstances that dictated their different behaviors is ludicrous. I guess to sum up your hypothetical in the most direct terms, I don't know how MJ would have handled KD's situation in OKC other than to say, a lot differently than KD handled it.


MJ's style clashes much more with a ball dominant PG though too. KD ran to a better PG for a reason, he doesn't mind not having to be the engine/leader and prefers to score within the offense. MJ was the engine for his teams, KD is not.

On top of everything else mentioned I think this factor is being missed cause that's pretty significant factor in his hypotheticals. I agree depending on what we mean he might drop slightly statistically but overall I don't see MJ not taking over.

Raps18-19 Champ
07-30-2018, 05:38 PM
No. Don't like Kobe at all but KD probably not passing him. He should have though but went to the Warriors.

Raps18-19 Champ
07-30-2018, 05:40 PM
I don't understand what Westbrook have to do with this... And it's not about twisting analytics to support a argument. WHY IS IT SOOOO HARD FOR PEOPLE ON THIS SITE TO LOOK AT TV AND JUDGE WHO THE BETTER MORE SKILLED AND TALENTED PLAYER IS?????? KOBE is EASY ANSWER!!

He doesn't like Werstbrook. He's going to take shots at players he doesn't like because they don't play the way he wants them to.

Jamiecballer
07-30-2018, 05:40 PM
have we actually ever seen Durant in a situation where he had to be a creator?

Jamiecballer
07-30-2018, 05:45 PM
He doesn't like Werstbrook. He's going to take shots at players he doesn't like because they don't play the way he wants them to.

you can't have a conversation about Durant and his legacy without bringing Westbrook into the conversation any more than you can talk Kobe's legacy without acknowledging Shaq's impact on it.

Raps18-19 Champ
07-30-2018, 05:47 PM
you can't have a conversation about Durant and his legacy without bringing Westbrook into the conversation any more than you can talk Kobe's legacy without acknowledging Shaq's impact on it.

Yea but that all goes to waste when you can't properly evaluate Westbrook.

Raps18-19 Champ
07-30-2018, 05:50 PM
I don't understand why people are talking about leadership ... Jordan wasn't a leader and he's at the top of the list.

It shouldn't have any impact on all time rankings but of course he's a leader. Jordan might have been a dick but even Hitler was a great leader.

Raps18-19 Champ
07-30-2018, 05:53 PM
Westbrook in the playoffs since 2012 finals run:
25.3 PER, .16 WS/48, 9.7 BPM, 108 ORTG

Durant in the playoffs since 2012 finals run:
24 PER, .194 WS/48, 5.5 BPM 115 ORTG

Looks like the big difference stat wise between them is KD upped his WS% and ORTG jumping onto an all time great team (best two in his career last two seasons, had 110 ORTG before move and .155 WS/48). Rings wise only one of them ran to a champion/73 wins team without them. So the biggest differences already appear to come simply from the team one may have jumped to (and the resulting load on Westy). I really don't get all the overrating of KD, have done this with guys like Harden before too. If you wanna use stats to compare KD to past greats he might look a bit better but then you should not be ignoring that same stuff for Westbrook/Harden etc in these all time discussions.

That's why I think looking back people will be able to see the obvious, someone who struggles when needed to be a lead superstar but who took an extremely easy route to boost rings/easy looks. He looks much better when he is picking on 1v1 matchups set up by teammates/system as opposed to creating as the best player for his team type thing. When forced to carry even a little more of the load we see him fall off in multiple ways but specifically his efficiency. This is part of why he knows he isn't and doesn't want to be a leader imo, he can't deal with taking on the other defense's attention. He knows someone else has to take on that role for him to be the most effective as opposed to raising his own level of play/becoming capable of being that type of player.

Yup.

Durant is a MUCH better player than Kobe. His legacy will be worse than Kobe's.

His advantage as player isn't going to surpass his underwhelming legacy unless he does something drastic.

mngopher35
07-30-2018, 05:56 PM
have we actually ever seen Durant in a situation where he had to be a creator?

Not really since he always had so much talent but we have seen a series. Memphis series 2013 was only full series he played without Westy or GS I think. https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2013-nba-western-conference-semifinals-grizzlies-vs-thunder.html
He had 4.4 turnovers per game and was at 103 ORTG overall on higher volume (29 ppg 6.6 apg). Super small sample.

I mean even in his scoring though we can see it from him as he is assisted on like 50+% of his makes throughout his career. He just isn't a creator on that level and it's part of the reason he wanted a place like GS where he wouldn't have that responsibility imo (after not having it earlier in his career either, it's never been a priority nor something he is capable of anyways). It's why 2016 was his worst playoff efficiency wise since his 1st time there and also happened to be the highest usage. It's just not a main part of his game and he clearly has no want/need to try and show it no matter who his teammates are (or where he chooses to go).

Jamiecballer
07-30-2018, 06:27 PM
Yea but that all goes to waste when you can't properly evaluate Westbrook.People said the same thing to me about Iverson. I have zero doubt the same thing will occur here in time.

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Raps18-19 Champ
07-30-2018, 06:33 PM
People said the same thing to me about Iverson. I have zero doubt the same thing will occur here in time.

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Well what exactly did they tell you?

mngopher35
07-30-2018, 06:40 PM
Yup.

Durant is a MUCH better player than Kobe. His legacy will be worse than Kobe's.

His advantage as player isn't going to surpass his underwhelming legacy unless he does something drastic.

I wouldn't go that far, I will say I think Durant has/had the potential to be greater than Kobe overall. Whether or not he will be/can prove that he is over time has yet to be seen but I doubt this GS team as loaded as it is ever gets seen as spectacular for individual resumes (outside of the few homers). I hope at some point he grows a pair and we get to see the very best of both him and Curry when pushed to the limits but until then I doubt he makes my top 10 or so ever given what we have seen so far and where it appears to be headed rn (near future, not predicting far out he has plenty of time to grow/show more still).

We will see how it goes but ya something probably needs to change for his legacy to be at the top level for me too.

Jamiecballer
07-30-2018, 06:47 PM
I know you guys will say the exact same thing about me but I feel like, respectfully, you guys want to retrofit your feelings about Durant now onto his years preceding his infamous decision.

I look at it this way. For better or worse, Westbrook has pretty much first crack at the ball most of the time. So if you've got a trigger-happy alpha like Westbrook, who doesn't think anybody is more deserving of being the man than himself, how can you be sure that Durant wasnt being held down?

How do you outgun a guy who feels no obligation to team basketball and has never seen a shot that he didnt like? Answer. You dont. Unless Durant is supposed to abandon good fundamental basketball and I dont think he has that in him.

Again, I personally dont remember Durant being criticized for this until after he was labeled as some big follower.

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Raps18-19 Champ
07-30-2018, 06:56 PM
I know you guys will say the exact same thing about me but I feel like, respectfully, you guys want to retrofit your feelings about Durant now onto his years preceding his infamous decision.

I look at it this way. For better or worse, Westbrook has pretty much first crack at the ball most of the time. So if you've got a trigger-happy alpha like Westbrook, who doesn't think anybody is more deserving of being the man than himself, how can you be sure that Durant wasnt being held down?

How do you outgun a guy who feels no obligation to team basketball and has never seen a shot that he didnt like? Answer. You dont. Unless Durant is supposed to abandon good fundamental basketball and I dont think he has that in him.

Again, I personally dont remember Durant being criticized for this until after he was labeled as some big follower.

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Well of course. His decision finally sheds light on his previous play despite being a superior talent. If his decision implies something, that provides new information I didn't have access to/was not aware of and I'd be foolish to try and not consider that to years prior to his decision.

It's not different than the additional conclusions you made about Durant/Westbrook in the years after he left now that you saw Durant play with the Warriors.

mngopher35
07-30-2018, 07:08 PM
I know you guys will say the exact same thing about me but I feel like, respectfully, you guys want to retrofit your feelings about Durant now onto his years preceding his infamous decision.

I look at it this way. For better or worse, Westbrook has pretty much first crack at the ball most of the time. So if you've got a trigger-happy alpha like Westbrook, who doesn't think anybody is more deserving of being the man than himself, how can you be sure that Durant wasnt being held down?

How do you outgun a guy who feels no obligation to team basketball and has never seen a shot that he didnt like? Answer. You dont. Unless Durant is supposed to abandon good fundamental basketball and I dont think he has that in him.

Again, I personally dont remember Durant being criticized for this until after he was labeled as some big follower.

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I just don't give Durant credit for what we haven't seen yet, it seems like that's what you are trying to do using hypotheticals with MJ. It just seems kinda odd to ignore what we have seen in his career. I don't disagree some of what you are saying isn't true (I think you exaggerate the levels some and underplay who Durant is as a player being a factor in the dynamic too). Durant isn't much of a creator and until he proves he is and isn't just a great scorer off better opportunities on an all time team (which was obvious from the start to most of us) I won't just assume he's changed. He has to do something to get ranked at a high level.

I saw you mention something about Curry and I agree it IS the same with him. Both of them lose something on their individual chase/legacy teaming up with such ridiculous talent/gap over others. Best TEAM ever. Individuals are great but never truly proven like most other all stars who were needed to their top extent (let alone at all) in order to win. We know what they can do with no other team reasonably that close talent wise to win unless something happened (injury, very poor level of play/choke, player leaving etc) but what if they ever had to be pushed to the limits like... We have seen in Durant's career before and he looked great but again not quite all time level either. They have to prove it individually and they will struggle doing that on this team.

Edit: To be clear there is plenty of time I am not saying anything is stuck forever, just that where we are now and appear headed short term it doesn't seem like anyone individually will be seen as that dominant force. They just are loaded unlike anything we have really ever seen before.

mrblisterdundee
07-30-2018, 08:06 PM
As in Curry Green and Klay.

As in Shaq was the most important player during that three peat. The first time Kobe the MVP of a title team was with Gasol.


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WaDe03
07-30-2018, 09:02 PM
As in Shaq was the most important player during that three peat. The first time Kobe the MVP of a title team was with Gasol.


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Idk what that has to do with anything. Are you trying to make a point here? KD couldnít win while have the talent many years to do so. Kobe won 2 rings as the lead guy and was a huge factor in the other 3 and didnít have to join a 73-9 team because he couldnít win.

steamroller
07-30-2018, 09:20 PM
It'll be close. Durant already has three more scoring titles and just as many finals MVP's.

He's not perceived as an "alpha" but he's arguably getting better results.

Kobe was the superior player maker, that's for sure. But that's really the only area where he's clearly better. Durant is much more efficient, and the gap is especially clear from 3 pt. range. Durant is also vastly superior playing off the ball.

I'd say that Kobe outworked just about every player of his generation, played through injuries frequently and eked out every bit of his potential. Then again, Durant works very hard in the offseason and has continued to improve just about every season.

He's clearly a much better rebounder and defender now than he was earlier in his career. If he was Kobe's equal as a playmaker one could make a strong case he was better.

nastynice
07-30-2018, 10:47 PM
It'll be close. Durant already has three more scoring titles and just as many finals MVP's.

He's not perceived as an "alpha" but he's arguably getting better results.

Kobe was the superior player maker, that's for sure. But that's really the only area where he's clearly better. Durant is much more efficient, and the gap is especially clear from 3 pt. range. Durant is also vastly superior playing off the ball.

I'd say that Kobe outworked just about every player of his generation, played through injuries frequently and eked out every bit of his potential. Then again, Durant works very hard in the offseason and has continued to improve just about every season.

He's clearly a much better rebounder and defender now than he was earlier in his career. If he was Kobe's equal as a playmaker one could make a strong case he was better.

Yup, good post (tho I'm not sure if kd is better off the ball), Durant is definitely a more specialized player, a pure scorer, its reasonable to bekieve that with no injury and no sudden drop off, strictly as a scorer he can end up in that top tier with kareem and Jordan etc. Kobe is more versatile, not as specialized. Also better intangibles, but KD still got time, lots of players be making mental leaps starting around this age

That's why golden state is such a perfect fit, we needed that iso scorer

LakersEaglesLA
07-30-2018, 11:34 PM
Durant is more talented, that's not even a debate. Kobe is more skilled but Durants skills been trending up,hes still elevating his game

Whoever isn't Old enough to have watched Kobe 1999-2010 should not Have A VOTE

LakersEaglesLA
07-30-2018, 11:38 PM
Durant is a 7 foot pull up jump shooter, Kobe is the most TALENTED and SKILLED Scorer Ever.. Maybe Jordan is also there... Kobe Post moves, Jumper, Finisher fast break, Ball Handler, Footwork Specialist..... AND Defender! This is not close if you Know Ball...

steamroller
07-31-2018, 01:53 AM
Footwork Specialist? lol. Kind of like a Talent Specialist or a Skilled Specialist or a Kobe Be Awesome Specialist. AND Defender Specialist! If you know Ball that is. As in Liangelo shoplifting sunglasses and throwing his teammates under the bus because it ain't a big deal Big Baller Specialist. Yea, you know Ball All Right.

GREATNESS ONE
07-31-2018, 02:08 AM
:facepalm: it made complete sense. As a footwork specialist/ Genius. It's beautiful, lots of BBall players have been amazing with their footwork. Soccer is a beautiful sport.

nastynice
07-31-2018, 02:31 AM
Durant is a 7 foot pull up jump shooter, Kobe is the most TALENTED and SKILLED Scorer Ever.. Maybe Jordan is also there... Kobe Post moves, Jumper, Finisher fast break, Ball Handler, Footwork Specialist..... AND Defender! This is not close if you Know Ball...

Kobe is not more talented, talent is what you're born with, a 7 footer with guard like fluidity is clearly above and beyond what kobe brings to the table as far as straight up talent. He is more skilled.

Also jumper and fastbreak is Durant. Have you not seen durantula in action?

LakersEaglesLA
07-31-2018, 03:24 AM
Kobe is not more talented, talent is what you're born with, a 7 footer with guard like fluidity is clearly above and beyond what kobe brings to the table as far as straight up talent. He is more skilled.

Also jumper and fastbreak is Durant. Have you not seen durantula in action?

Forget it I give up, So many NBA players are in Aww of KOBE'S Talent and Skill Set. People grew up watching him and having to say "Wow did you see that" there are things Only Kobe and Jordan were able to do. That's why he had a farewell tour at end of career.. Durant is Great, but 2000- 2010 Kobe was a Jordan Clone...

GREATNESS ONE
07-31-2018, 03:26 AM
https://youtu.be/Pqbi7OnkjWI

LakersEaglesLA
07-31-2018, 03:28 AM
PSD Hates Kobe Soo much smh it's just a matter of time before every ALL STAR player gets a thread of "when will he pass Kobe" lol pathetic

LakersEaglesLA
07-31-2018, 03:30 AM
https://youtu.be/Pqbi7OnkjWI

I think these kids Need to Watch THIS, thanks

jaydubb
07-31-2018, 03:38 AM
PSD Hates Kobe Soo much smh it's just a matter of time before every ALL STAR player gets a thread of "when will he pass Kobe" lol patheticYou're very smart for the teams that you follow. :nod:

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jaydubb
07-31-2018, 03:45 AM
https://youtu.be/Pqbi7OnkjWINice ****. Haters always gonna hate though. All the nba legends regard kobe as one of the very best ever but these so called psd experts have kobe around 15 or so on their all time rankings. That should say a lot.

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Heediot
07-31-2018, 06:17 AM
Not really since he always had so much talent but we have seen a series. Memphis series 2013 was only full series he played without Westy or GS I think. https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2013-nba-western-conference-semifinals-grizzlies-vs-thunder.html
He had 4.4 turnovers per game and was at 103 ORTG overall on higher volume (29 ppg 6.6 apg). Super small sample.

I mean even in his scoring though we can see it from him as he is assisted on like 50+% of his makes throughout his career. He just isn't a creator on that level and it's part of the reason he wanted a place like GS where he wouldn't have that responsibility imo (after not having it earlier in his career either, it's never been a priority nor something he is capable of anyways). It's why 2016 was his worst playoff efficiency wise since his 1st time there and also happened to be the highest usage. It's just not a main part of his game and he clearly has no want/need to try and show it no matter who his teammates are (or where he chooses to go).

I feel the same way, I've always said he was over-rated off the dribble when defenses game plan and key in harder in the playoffs. He's not bad or terrible but he isn't up there with Jordan, Kobe, Bron, Wade, Kyrie types off the bounce vs. playoff defense. I think Harden is over-rated as well.

cmellofan15
07-31-2018, 07:53 AM
Lmao I canít believe what i just read about Westbrookís ďleadershipĒ.

We see time and time again when a player breaks the shackles of the OKC offense and gets to play somewhere else where a guy isnít bouncing the air out of the ball and stealing rebounds they flourish.

Hence why KD left and is now the most underwhelming 2x Finals MVP ever :laugh2:

MygirlhatesCod
07-31-2018, 08:01 AM
Durant is a 7 foot pull up jump shooter, Kobe is the most TALENTED and SKILLED Scorer Ever.. Maybe Jordan is also there... Kobe Post moves, Jumper, Finisher fast break, Ball Handler, Footwork Specialist..... AND Defender! This is not close if you Know Ball...

cant take anything you say seriously after you utter this nonsense.

go home you're drunk.

Jamiecballer
07-31-2018, 09:01 AM
Well of course. His decision finally sheds light on his previous play despite being a superior talent. If his decision implies something, that provides new information I didn't have access to/was not aware of and I'd be foolish to try and not consider that to years prior to his decision.

It's not different than the additional conclusions you made about Durant/Westbrook in the years after he left now that you saw Durant play with the Warriors.

see, there is the rub. what additional conclusions? i felt this way always. i'm not looking through the lens of my feelings about Durant today and going back and creating a story that is consistent with it. that's all i'm saying. maybe you guys are right. i don't think so. the one constant here is westbrook, which is why i say in 20 years when people are remembering Westbrook in much the same way we remember Iverson people will start to look at the Durant decision in a different light. just my opinion.

Jamiecballer
07-31-2018, 09:07 AM
I just don't give Durant credit for what we haven't seen yet, it seems like that's what you are trying to do using hypotheticals with MJ. It just seems kinda odd to ignore what we have seen in his career. I don't disagree some of what you are saying isn't true (I think you exaggerate the levels some and underplay who Durant is as a player being a factor in the dynamic too). Durant isn't much of a creator and until he proves he is and isn't just a great scorer off better opportunities on an all time team (which was obvious from the start to most of us) I won't just assume he's changed. He has to do something to get ranked at a high level.

I saw you mention something about Curry and I agree it IS the same with him. Both of them lose something on their individual chase/legacy teaming up with such ridiculous talent/gap over others. Best TEAM ever. Individuals are great but never truly proven like most other all stars who were needed to their top extent (let alone at all) in order to win. We know what they can do with no other team reasonably that close talent wise to win unless something happened (injury, very poor level of play/choke, player leaving etc) but what if they ever had to be pushed to the limits like... We have seen in Durant's career before and he looked great but again not quite all time level either. They have to prove it individually and they will struggle doing that on this team.

Edit: To be clear there is plenty of time I am not saying anything is stuck forever, just that where we are now and appear headed short term it doesn't seem like anyone individually will be seen as that dominant force. They just are loaded unlike anything we have really ever seen before.

fair enough, i am not trying to compare Durant to Jordan as if they are close in any way shape or form. i used Jordan as an example because he is sort of the epitome of exerting ones will. my point is only that exerting ones will is perhaps not an easy thing to do when there is a guy between you and the ball who loves to take things upon himself, not even from time to time, but most of the time IMO. i'm not sure we can properly frame Durants time in OKC without factoring for that. IMO.

Hawkeye15
07-31-2018, 09:11 AM
PSD Hates Kobe Soo much smh it's just a matter of time before every ALL STAR player gets a thread of "when will he pass Kobe" lol pathetic

PSD is normal. Kobe fans, for some reason, are some of the more insecure, bias fans of any player I have seen. Kobe is also polarizing, and invited conversation about him over his career. The thing is, even his "haters" still have him top 10-15 EVER. If that isn't showing respect for his career, I am not sure what is.

Kobe fans made me go from disliking him, to hating him with a passion. Once he retired (or towards the end anyways), I actually started to not mind him at all. Perhaps because I am only a couple of years older, and he, along with a few others, were retiring and it made me feel old and nostalgic.

ewing
07-31-2018, 09:57 AM
fair enough, i am not trying to compare Durant to Jordan as if they are close in any way shape or form. i used Jordan as an example because he is sort of the epitome of exerting ones will. my point is only that exerting ones will is perhaps not an easy thing to do when there is a guy between you and the ball who loves to take things upon himself, not even from time to time, but most of the time IMO. i'm not sure we can properly frame Durants time in OKC without factoring for that. IMO.

if Westbrook enters a gym I blame everything negative that has ever happened in that gym on Westbrook.

WaDe03
07-31-2018, 10:22 AM
PSD Hates Kobe Soo much smh it's just a matter of time before every ALL STAR player gets a thread of "when will he pass Kobe" lol pathetic

Itís out with the old in with the new as fast as possible on here lol. ***** hilarious.

mngopher35
07-31-2018, 10:36 AM
fair enough, i am not trying to compare Durant to Jordan as if they are close in any way shape or form. i used Jordan as an example because he is sort of the epitome of exerting ones will. my point is only that exerting ones will is perhaps not an easy thing to do when there is a guy between you and the ball who loves to take things upon himself, not even from time to time, but most of the time IMO. i'm not sure we can properly frame Durants time in OKC without factoring for that. IMO.

It didn't seem to stop Durant from having great RS over that time, only in the playoffs did WB magically become so destructive to KD I guess.

I agree Westy could have held him back some but it still doesn't exempt him from everything that actually happened and what we saw from him. He still shoulders some of that blame it isn't all one sided and he has to prove he has grown as a player and can do the things we haven't seen him do to get credit. This is what I mean about giving too much blame to one guy and not acknowledging the other has some too. Like I said already I agree Westbrook overall can hold him back some but that doesn't mean we ignore everything I have mentioned and write it off on Westy. Durant is the main culprit for his own play and the reason he fell off so much is mostly on him not another player (fall off because it was worse for him than RS, he had already shown a certain level next to Westy he wasn't replicating)

Jamiecballer
07-31-2018, 10:50 AM
if Westbrook enters a gym I blame everything negative that has ever happened in that gym on Westbrook.You are trying to create a false narrative here and I'm not biting.

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Jamiecballer
07-31-2018, 10:52 AM
It didn't seem to stop Durant from having great RS over that time, only in the playoffs did WB magically become so destructive to KD I guess.

I agree Westy could have held him back some but it still doesn't exempt him from everything that actually happened and what we saw from him. He still shoulders some of that blame it isn't all one sided and he has to prove he has grown as a player and can do the things we haven't seen him do to get credit. This is what I mean about giving too much blame to one guy and not acknowledging the other has some too. Like I said already I agree Westbrook overall can hold him back some but that doesn't mean we ignore everything I have mentioned and write it off on Westy. Durant is the main culprit for his own play and the reason he fell off so much is mostly on him not another player (fall off because it was worse for him than RS, he had already shown a certain level next to Westy he wasn't replicating)I'm not sure what you mean. Durant was not as effective in the postseason. Either was Westbrook. Durant was still a .200 win share guy in the playoffs. Pretty good.

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bagwell368
07-31-2018, 10:54 AM
Tough call. Kobe was a borderline volume scorer, but his D in critical playoffs was very good. Competitive fellow, to say the least. Durant offensively is well better, but where is the D, where is the fire on floor? Off the floor both of them have done stupid things. Durant needs a few titles to catch up on that side.

Both are likely top 15 all time, but, good chance than when Durant retires neither will be top 10.

ewing
07-31-2018, 10:55 AM
You are trying to create a false narrative here and I'm not biting.

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If Emily Ratajkowski is in a room and so is Russell Westbrook that ***** gets ugly

mngopher35
07-31-2018, 11:22 AM
I'm not sure what you mean. Durant was not as effective in the postseason. Either was Westbrook. Durant was still a .200 win share guy in the playoffs. Pretty good.

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Yup we agree he was still pretty good. Until he proves more he is not top 10 all time is they key I guess. The same way you can point to Westy holding him back you can point to this GS team being perfect to prop him up. Individually it's up to him to take his game to the next level above pretty good and shine over the rest, will be tough given the situation he is in and what we have seen in the past.

I am saying KD was great plenty next to Westy but fell off specific years in the playoffs, that's on him

Durant
28.7 PER, .283 WS/48, 7.9 BPM 122 ORTG
22.6 PER, .155 WS/48, 4.4 BPM 110 ORTG
Westy
26.4 PER, .214 WS/48, 8.2 BPM 112 ORTG
25.8 PER, .184 WS/48, 10.1 BPM 111ORTG


The top is RS the bottom is playoffs, it looks a lot like one player is very different and the other plays pretty similar either way. You want to put almost all of the blame in the drop off from KD on Westy when only one of them was dropping off to such a great extent come each post season (between harden/GS).

WhiteShadow42
07-31-2018, 12:12 PM
if Westbrook enters a gym I blame everything negative that has ever happened in that gym on Westbrook.

LOL. Not a huge Westbrook fan, but sometimes it feels that way here. If anyone wants to see athletic abilities to the max live, Westbrook is the one to watch. I have never seen anyone move like him.

I used to be an All State wide receiver and he makes me look like a 350 lb Defensive Tackle.

tredigs
07-31-2018, 12:17 PM
Could he? Of course. He already has a prime that rivals Kobe's best (can easily argue exceeds it), and has a ton of career ahead of him. For reference, Kobe was an 8 time All Star (5 legitimate) after KD's current age (and while that also illustrates Kobe's longevity, that will become more common in the current climate imo). Barring injury, KD will be one of the top 5 best players in the league for at least half a decade. That gets him into the top 10 conversation at that point. Ditto Curry as far as current players are concerned. Harden will be top 20 level as well.

Jamiecballer
07-31-2018, 12:37 PM
Yup we agree he was still pretty good. Until he proves more he is not top 10 all time is they key I guess. The same way you can point to Westy holding him back you can point to this GS team being perfect to prop him up. Individually it's up to him to take his game to the next level above pretty good and shine over the rest, will be tough given the situation he is in and what we have seen in the past.

I am saying KD was great plenty next to Westy but fell off specific years in the playoffs, that's on him

Durant
28.7 PER, .283 WS/48, 7.9 BPM 122 ORTG
22.6 PER, .155 WS/48, 4.4 BPM 110 ORTG
Westy
26.4 PER, .214 WS/48, 8.2 BPM 112 ORTG
25.8 PER, .184 WS/48, 10.1 BPM 111ORTG


The top is RS the bottom is playoffs, it looks a lot like one player is very different and the other plays pretty similar either way. You want to put almost all of the blame in the drop off from KD on Westy when only one of them was dropping off to such a great extent come each post season (between harden/GS).I dont understand where you are cherrypicking those numbers from but both guys have win-shares per 48 in the playoffs that are lower than RS. Westbrook much more so than Durant. Please explain.

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Chronz
07-31-2018, 12:43 PM
PSD Hates Kobe Soo much smh it's just a matter of time before every ALL STAR player gets a thread of "when will he pass Kobe" lol pathetic
KD has to have that insatiable lust to prove himself before he ever comes close to kobe

mngopher35
07-31-2018, 01:31 PM
I dont understand where you are cherrypicking those numbers from but both guys have win-shares per 48 in the playoffs that are lower than RS. Westbrook much more so than Durant. Please explain.

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This is without Harden and not on GS like I said. It is the years specifically with Westbrook "holding/bringing him down". Only Durant seems to really drop off in the playoffs though unlike what you were getting at before over that span. You are blaming almost in total the one of those guys that was consistent from RS to playoffs for the other one dropping off to such a drastic extent.

I think as someone else already mentioned it is your bias getting in the way of seeing that Durant is partially at fault for his own play. Like any other player has those standards but because he played with Westy you wanna ignore his faults/issues that have been mentioned.

Jamiecballer
07-31-2018, 02:34 PM
This is without Harden and not on GS like I said. It is the years specifically with Westbrook "holding/bringing him down". Only Durant seems to really drop off in the playoffs though unlike what you were getting at before over that span. You are blaming almost in total the one of those guys that was consistent from RS to playoffs for the other one dropping off to such a drastic extent.

I think as someone else already mentioned it is your bias getting in the way of seeing that Durant is partially at fault for his own play. Like any other player has those standards but because he played with Westy you wanna ignore his faults/issues that have been mentioned.

ok, it's pretty much what i thought. we definitely have to agree to disagree here. my comments regarding Westbrook deadening Durant's impact on the game were not specifically related to postseason play. i am talking about the effect of Westbrook the teammate. period.

my only interest in the discussion on the post-season talk was to point out that of the two of them, they both have seen a decent size drop in their post-season performance - not just Durant. i keep hearing that he didn't get it done, but they both failed to deliver. you can look at Durant's numbers compared to Westbrook for the time they were together, that's fine. i am merely pointing out that Westbrook has pretty much underperformed no matter who the teammates are and by a larger margin overall. seperate from the whole "holding back" discussion.

to that point, however, a cursory look at Russell Westbrook's playoff stats are telling, to me. i know you guys will take the exact opposite interpretation of it, but what the hell. Westbrook had career FGA's of 17.3 per game in the regular season alongside Durant. in the playoffs - that number jumped to 20.4! this goes to my point that it's tough to step up when the guy who carries the ball upcourt has never met a shot he doesn't like and feels like HE is the man.

mngopher35
07-31-2018, 02:58 PM
ok, it's pretty much what i thought. we definitely have to agree to disagree here. my comments regarding Westbrook deadening Durant's impact on the game were not specifically related to postseason play. i am talking about the effect of Westbrook the teammate. period.

my only interest in the discussion on the post-season talk was to point out that of the two of them, they both have seen a decent size drop in their post-season performance - not just Durant. i keep hearing that he didn't get it done, but they both failed to deliver. you can look at Durant's numbers compared to Westbrook for the time they were together, that's fine. i am merely pointing out that Westbrook has pretty much underperformed no matter who the teammates are and by a larger margin overall. seperate from the whole "holding back" discussion.

to that point, however, a cursory look at Russell Westbrook's playoff stats are telling, to me. i know you guys will take the exact opposite interpretation of it, but what the hell. Westbrook had career FGA's of 17.3 per game in the regular season alongside Durant. in the playoffs - that number jumped to 20.4! this goes to my point that it's tough to step up when the guy who carries the ball upcourt has never met a shot he doesn't like and feels like HE is the man.

Yes, him being a teammate was true that ENTIRE time. KD gets the blame for falling off in the playoffs to the extent that he did has been my point that keeps being ignored.

Durant was the one dropping off a ton without other creators there though is the point. He excels when he isn't asked to carry as much of a load but when it was "just" him and Westbrook we saw only one of them falling off to a drastic extent. That puts the blame on said individual more than anyone else has been the point while you keep trying to blame Westy in total.

Shots Per 36 in the RS/playoffs for both:
Westbrook: 19.3/20.3
Durant: 18.8/18.4 (in time in GS not with Westy he is at: 18.4/18.9)

Per 36 we are talking about Westbrook adding 1 shot per game more and doing so often times when he is more efficient than KD (note like the years I outlined earlier, he should shoot 1 more shot per game if the other star is playing so much worse in post seasons, no?). Again it seems like reaching to blame Westy here.

I fully get the stance that Westbrooks game can hold people back, especially if it were an on ball creator like MJ for example. With Durant we have NEVER seen that aspect from him and in fact like the Memphis series or recent years up until GS he always seemed to struggle mightly individually when the pressure was ramped up in the playoffs with him being needed to a larger extent. He thrives next to creators and generally wants to just take easier scoring opportunities than carry the load/be the engine on offense. It doesn't mean he sucks but I won't just ignore this aspect while blaming Westy for all their problems either as his continual drop off in the playoffs is a huge reason OKC never quite reached the heights I think a top 10 or probably even 20 player could have taken them at their peak (and playing well). This part is not just on Westbrook as I have been trying to point out, Durant is at fault for dropping off too.

Jamiecballer
07-31-2018, 03:41 PM
Yes, him being a teammate was true that ENTIRE time. KD gets the blame for falling off in the playoffs to the extent that he did has been my point that keeps being ignored.

Durant was the one dropping off a ton without other creators there though is the point. He excels when he isn't asked to carry as much of a load but when it was "just" him and Westbrook we saw only one of them falling off to a drastic extent. That puts the blame on said individual more than anyone else has been the point while you keep trying to blame Westy in total.

Shots Per 36 in the RS/playoffs for both:
Westbrook: 19.3/20.3
Durant: 18.8/18.4 (in time in GS not with Westy he is at: 18.4/18.9)

Per 36 we are talking about Westbrook adding 1 shot per game more and doing so often times when he is more efficient than KD (note like the years I outlined earlier, he should shoot 1 more shot per game if the other star is playing so much worse in post seasons, no?). Again it seems like reaching to blame Westy here.

I fully get the stance that Westbrooks game can hold people back, especially if it were an on ball creator like MJ for example. With Durant we have NEVER seen that aspect from him and in fact like the Memphis series or recent years up until GS he always seemed to struggle mightly individually when the pressure was ramped up in the playoffs with him being needed to a larger extent. He thrives next to creators and generally wants to just take easier scoring opportunities than carry the load/be the engine on offense. It doesn't mean he sucks but I won't just ignore this aspect while blaming Westy for all their problems either as his continual drop off in the playoffs is a huge reason OKC never quite reached the heights I think a top 10 or probably even 20 player could have taken them at their peak (and playing well). This part is not just on Westbrook as I have been trying to point out, Durant is at fault for dropping off too.Your numbers, I believe, are wrong.

Sent from my SM-A520W using Tapatalk

mngopher35
07-31-2018, 04:08 PM
Your numbers, I believe, are wrong.

Sent from my SM-A520W using Tapatalk

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/westbru01.html

18.2/18.4 for KD instead for his career (GS part was on as well https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/duranke01.html) so that first number had a different decimal but nothing that would at all change the point in any way...

mrblisterdundee
07-31-2018, 04:27 PM
Idk what that has to do with anything. Are you trying to make a point here? KD couldnít win while have the talent many years to do so. Kobe won 2 rings as the lead guy and was a huge factor in the other 3 and didnít have to join a 73-9 team because he couldnít win.

I already made my point in a previous post and was responding to your comment about Durant having Curry, Klay and Draymond. Durant winning two with them is no less valuable than Kobe winning three with Shaq against relatively crap competition in the early post-Jordan era. Had Kobe ended up in New Jersey or Charlotte, things might have been a lot different.

valade16
07-31-2018, 04:29 PM
I already made my point in a previous post and was responding to your comment about Durant having Curry, Klay and Draymond. Durant winning two with them is no less valuable than Kobe winning three with Shaq against relatively crap competition in the early post-Jordan era. Had Kobe ended up in New Jersey or Charlotte, things might have been a lot different.

While true, let's not pretend like KD ended up in the equivalent of late 90's Jersey or Charlotte. He ended up on a team with 2 other NBA MVPs and a DPOY. OKC was a good team. More than talented enough to actually win the title.

mrblisterdundee
07-31-2018, 06:16 PM
While true, let's not pretend like KD ended up in the equivalent of late 90's Jersey or Charlotte. He ended up on a team with 2 other NBA MVPs and a DPOY. OKC was a good team. More than talented enough to actually win the title.

... had they been kept together. But they were broken up before they were mature enough to win a title, a shortsighted move that also likely wouldn't have happened had they been fortunate enough to be in Los Angeles.
Also, the Thunder never had a DPOY. Ibaka got close in 2012 but lost out to Tyson Chandler.

valade16
07-31-2018, 07:01 PM
... had they been kept together. But they were broken up before they were mature enough to win a title, a shortsighted move that also likely wouldn't have happened had they been fortunate enough to be in Los Angeles.
Also, the Thunder never had a DPOY. Ibaka got close in 2012 but lost out to Tyson Chandler.

You're right, I should have said DPOY-caliber player. They were broken up prematurely, but even after that point, they were still plenty talented. They still had the talent. He was not on some squad devoid of talent was my point.

More-Than-Most
07-31-2018, 09:43 PM
one could actually argue he is already better than kobe... so yes he will be better than kobe all time... I hate the ***** but he will end up a top 5-9 player.

someone quickly tell me one thing kobe does better than Durant?

Scoring-Durant
Defense-Durant
Rebounding-Durant
Efficiency-Durant
needed talent to win rings-Both guys
Playoff performance-Durant


Kobe has longevity which durant will make meaningless in like 2 more seasons... this is durants like 11th year right? If people want to **** on Durant for going to the warriors and wanting help to win WHICH THEY SHOULD... Then kobe refusing to play for his drafted team and going to the lakers or him threatening to leave before they traded for Gasol are 2 big factors as well.


Durant is a ***** but he is great

WaDe03
07-31-2018, 09:51 PM
I already made my point in a previous post and was responding to your comment about Durant having Curry, Klay and Draymond. Durant winning two with them is no less valuable than Kobe winning three with Shaq against relatively crap competition in the early post-Jordan era. Had Kobe ended up in New Jersey or Charlotte, things might have been a lot different.

Ummmm yes itís way less valuable but also very irrelevant to my original point. Kobe didnít need a 73-9 team to win a championship like KD.

WaDe03
07-31-2018, 09:59 PM
Kobe:

Elite on both ends
Elite big game performer
Didnít need 73-9 team to win
Elite winner

Durant:

Elite scorer
Couldnít win a ring until teaming up and forming the most stacked team ever
Mental midget

This reminds me a lot of Wade vs KG in the 5th pick thread:

Wade:

Elite on both ends
GOAT level big game performer
One of the greatest playoff/finals runs ever
3 time champion
One of the clutchest players ever
Made KG his ***** many, many, many times (see post in the 5th pick thread)

KG:

Elite on both ends
Playoff folder
Needed the big 4 to get it done

How anyone can choose KD or KG in either of these threads and actually think theyíre making the right decision is beyond me. But thatís just a little bit about my self.

More-Than-Most
07-31-2018, 10:06 PM
Kobe:

Elite on both ends
Elite big game performer
Didnít need 73-9 team to win
Elite winner

Durant:

Elite scorer
Couldnít win a ring until teaming up and forming the most stacked team ever
Mental midget

This reminds me a lot of Wade vs KG in the 5th pick thread:

Wade:

Elite on both ends
GOAT level big game performer
One of the greatest playoff/finals runs ever
3 time champion
One of the clutchest players ever
Made KG his ***** many, many, many times (see post in the 5th pick thread)

KG:

Elite on both ends
Playoff folder
Needed the big 4 to get it done

How anyone can choose KD or KG in either of these threads and actually think theyíre making the right decision is beyond me. But thatís just a little bit about my self.

my god this is what i am talking about... the ignorance for a dude joining a team is amazing to me... Fun note Durant in the playoffs has been better than wade who you consider a big game performer


Wades best playoff performance wasnt better than Durants best playoff performance. Wade needed both shaq and or lebron but you **** on durant for needing a big 3 around him... why do we ignore stats/facts and rely on nothing with substance while trying to make our arguments... Name me one thing wade did/does better than Durant? Let me help you out here... Nothing.... Wade isnt even in the discussion... Kobe is because of longevity something wade doesnt have.

LakersEaglesLA
07-31-2018, 10:08 PM
one could actually argue he is already better than kobe... so yes he will be better than kobe all time... I hate the ***** but he will end up a top 5-9 player.

someone quickly tell me one thing kobe does better than Durant?

Scoring-Durant
Defense-Durant
Rebounding-Durant
Efficiency-Durant
needed talent to win rings-Both guys
Playoff performance-Durant


Kobe has longevity which durant will make meaningless in like 2 more seasons... this is durants like 11th year right? If people want to **** on Durant for going to the warriors and wanting help to win WHICH THEY SHOULD... Then kobe refusing to play for his drafted team and going to the lakers or him threatening to leave before they traded for Gasol are 2 big factors as well.


Durant is a ***** but he is great

Did you actually watch the Western Conference Playoffs 2000-2005? Did you watch Western Conference Playoffs 2008-2010? To say Durant is better in playoffs is CRAZY! He got to one Championship without the most stacked Team in History... And you know Damn Well Kobe was a lock down Defender, Scorer=Kobe.. the ONLY thing Durant is better than Kobe is efficiency smh

LakersEaglesLA
07-31-2018, 10:12 PM
cant take anything you say seriously after you utter this nonsense.

go home you're drunk.

So Jordan himself and most NBA players are Wrong about KOBE... Because yo ***** say So lol

More-Than-Most
07-31-2018, 10:13 PM
Did you actually watch the Western Conference Playoffs 2000-2005? Did you watch Western Conference Playoffs 2008-2010? To say Durant is better in playoffs is CRAZY! He got to one Championship without the most stacked Team in History

more ignorance. Yes durant had more help over these 2 years than what kobe had in his gasol years but the warriors also went up against much better competition then those years... as for the 2000-2005-Shaq. That overtakes everything the warriors have. Again Durant was still the better playoff performer

More-Than-Most
07-31-2018, 10:14 PM
So Jordan himself and most NBA players are Wrong about KOBE... Because yo ***** say So lol

players are morons... just because they play the sport means nothing why do you think jordan has been such a **** owner???? He can play but understanding talent is an entirely different thing.

More-Than-Most
07-31-2018, 10:16 PM
right now the only thing making this a discussion is kobes longevity.. within 2 seasons when durant probably wins 2 more titles and 2 more finals mvps while playing 2 more insanely great statistical seasons there will no longer even be a discussion because durant will be in like year 13... 13 years playing at this level or near this level destroys the longevity argument.

LakersEaglesLA
07-31-2018, 10:19 PM
more ignorance. Yes durant had more help over these 2 years than what kobe had in his gasol years but the warriors also went up against much better competition then those years... as for the 2000-2005-Shaq. That overtakes everything the warriors have. Again Durant was still the better playoff performer

Wrong Again!! As Shaq just told Kobe on interview "I didn't get in Shape because I knew I could COUNT ON YOU" so are you gonna argue with Shaq Now?

LakersEaglesLA
07-31-2018, 10:21 PM
players are morons... just because they play the sport means nothing why do you think jordan has been such a **** owner???? He can play but understanding talent is an entirely different thing.

That's ASSININE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

More-Than-Most
07-31-2018, 10:25 PM
Wrong Again!! As Shaq just told Kobe on interview "I didn't get in Shape because I knew I could COUNT ON YOU" so are you gonna argue with Shaq Now?

jesus christ what does this have to do with anything? true or false was shaq the better player in every playoff run with kobe? TRUE... Even while not staying in shape he was still the force that carried. Do you want the stats?

LakersEaglesLA
07-31-2018, 10:27 PM
I see Nothing has changed, a bunch of computer geeks that NEVER PLAYED the Game and don't UNDERSTAND the Game! You smart guys know more about basketball than Jordan Shaq Magic Ainge Bird West And All the other NBA GREATS

More-Than-Most
07-31-2018, 10:28 PM
I see Nothing has changed, a bunch of computer geeks that NEVER PLAYED the Game and don't UNDERSTAND the Game! You smart guys know more about basketball than Jordan Shaq Magic Ainge Bird West And All the other NBA GREATS

ty /thread


by you saying nothing has changed i guess you left the site when the lakers fell off the map and are now back because they signed lebron? True or false?

Raps18-19 Champ
07-31-2018, 10:38 PM
see, there is the rub. what additional conclusions? i felt this way always. i'm not looking through the lens of my feelings about Durant today and going back and creating a story that is consistent with it. that's all i'm saying. maybe you guys are right. i don't think so. the one constant here is westbrook, which is why i say in 20 years when people are remembering Westbrook in much the same way we remember Iverson people will start to look at the Durant decision in a different light. just my opinion.

Yea but even the most clueless guys sometimes like Bayless and SAS get it right everyone once in a while lol. I've been absolutely lucky on claims that didn't have enough information to make my conclusions.

Even if you (along with the tons of other players) felt that way about Westbrook, you may not have had the information you needed to make those conclusions. Or maybe you had enough information but it wasn't reinforced until after Durant left. You might have concluded about Westbrook-Durant before and after he left but there's no way that you couldn't/wouldn't have adjusted your conclusions based on what happened with Durant in GSW. Durant could have struggled playing with a guy like Curry and you'd have to adjust your conclusions. Him fitting in with Curry reinforced what you felt about Westbrook most likely.

If PG has a career year beside Westbrook, it'd be foolish not to reconsider Westbrook's impact on his teammates. They might still come to the same conclusion but they would have to think about it with new information available.

As for the bolded, I don't see why they would look at the Durant decision different anyway. Durant outright said on his fake twitter accounts that he left because he felt there was no one around him and Westbrook, not Westbrook himself. His anonymous confession (where he got caught) is probably more reliable than his scripted answers.

LakersEaglesLA
07-31-2018, 11:09 PM
jesus christ what does this have to do with anything? true or false was shaq the better player in every playoff run with kobe? TRUE... Even while not staying in shape he was still the force that carried. Do you want the stats?

They were Both Stars SMH

More-Than-Most
07-31-2018, 11:18 PM
They were Both Stars SMH

In what year did the opposing teams come in game planning around Kobe while Shaq was there?
In what year did the other team come in thinking all we need to do is stop Kobe?


Kobe his first 2 championships he was a role player at best... Kobe was not a star. He was a young player with high upside that was coddled and carried because the other team only focused on stopping the most unstoppable player we have seen since wilt and more recently lebron. Teams doubled Shaq constantly and he would still drop 38/12 on them nightly. I am so sick and tired of the lets find any avenue to elevate our player... Kobe is an all time great top 11 in almost every persons all time great lists... He would be 9th best to me in which i argue him over most compared to other people on here but for whatever reason its the same dumb stuff in this thread that has always been my number 1 criticism of laker fans.

Its always always been Kobe has 5 rings him having Shaq is irrelevant... Him being gifted Gasol is irrelevant... He has 5 rings yada yada yada... Which is true... But now Durant who is going to flat out be better and probably end up a top 5 player is having his supporting cast held against him by lakers fans who have argued until they were blue in the face when arguing for kobe that rings/end all be all? You can not sit here and take away from durants accomplishments because he has won these rings with this super team but not take away from kobe when he was carried by a top 5 player and possibly the GOAT Dominating force we might have ever seen along side him.

LakersEaglesLA
07-31-2018, 11:18 PM
ty /thread


by you saying nothing has changed i guess you left the site when the lakers fell off the map and are now back because they signed lebron? True or false?

Nothing Changed means I haven't posted consistently about Lakers for a couple years and still don't because most of you don't use logic, just Hate of Kobe and Lakers.. The reason I checked back in is because YOU guys nut hugged LeBron Sooo much, Said LeBron was the "Greatest Ever" "A King that could do No wrong" on here the last 7 or 8 years...I wanted to see how the LAKERS HATERS would discredit LeBron now that he is a "Laker"

More-Than-Most
07-31-2018, 11:21 PM
Nothing Changed means I haven't posted consistently about Lakers for a couple years and still don't because most of you don't use logic, just Hate of Kobe and Lakers.. The reason I checked back in is because YOU guys nut hugged LeBron Sooo much, Said LeBron was the "Greatest Ever" "A King that could do No wrong" on here the last 7 or 8 years...I wanted to see how the LAKERS HATERS would discredit LeBron now that he is a "Laker"

so you left when they stunk and came back because lebron all while trying to take shots at people for using stats because we enjoy weight backing up our arguments over just defending to defend?

WaDe03
07-31-2018, 11:25 PM
my god this is what i am talking about... the ignorance for a dude joining a team is amazing to me... Fun note Durant in the playoffs has been better than wade who you consider a big game performer


Wades best playoff performance wasnt better than Durants best playoff performance. Wade needed both shaq and or lebron but you **** on durant for needing a big 3 around him... why do we ignore stats/facts and rely on nothing with substance while trying to make our arguments... Name me one thing wade did/does better than Durant? Let me help you out here... Nothing.... Wade isnt even in the discussion... Kobe is because of longevity something wade doesnt have.

Fun fact, Wades 2006 playoffs/finals run **** on literally anything KD has ever done. I donít want to hear his stats when he was surrounded by Curry Klay Green Iggy etc lmao! Please let a prime Wade be guarded in single coverage because his supporting cast is too good to be helped off of. Talk about ignorance. Every player needs help to win a championship. 2006 Wade had an older Shaq who was god awful in the finals. KD had Westbrook Harden and Ibaka, he had Westbrook and Ibaka (whoís nowhere near as good now as he was with OKC) and he wasnít able to do ****. He literally has to join a 73-9 team. Wade is a far better defender than KD, better passer, better handle, better slasher/attacker, clutcher player, better big game performer.

I wasnít even talking Wade vs Durant though so shows your lack of reading comprehension and if ignorance. Youíre the last person on here that should call someone ignorant now that your buddy got banned.

WaDe03
07-31-2018, 11:27 PM
It donít matter if Shaq was better than Kobe, Kobe got 2 more as the main guy on a team built around him. KD has to join a 73-9 team. Dudes is a pure *****.

More-Than-Most
07-31-2018, 11:27 PM
Fun fact, Wades 2006 playoffs/finals run **** on literally anything KD has ever done. I donít want to hear his stats when he was surrounded by Curry Klay Green Iggy etc lmao! Please let a prime Wade be guarded in single coverage because his supporting cast is too good to be helped off of. Talk about ignorance. Every player needs help to win a championship. 2006 Wade had an older Shaq who was god awful in the finals. KD had Westbrook Harden and Ibaka, he had Westbrook and Ibaka (whoís nowhere near as good now as he was with OKC) and he wasnít able to do ****. He literally has to join a 73-9 team. Wade is a far better defender than KD, better passer, better handle, better slasher/attacker, clutcher player, better big game performer.

I wasnít even talking Wade vs Durant though so shows your lack of reading comprehension and if ignorance. Youíre the last person on here that should call someone ignorant now that your buddy got banned.

older shaq that still demanded double teams... Again Durant statistically out did anything wade ever did in any of wades playoffs... This is what i mean about people loving 1 player with 0 actual weight to any of their arguments outside of talking out the wrong end and defending just to defend. Wade shouldnt even be mentioned in the same breath as durant because durant already flew by him... We get it you love wade... Tell me what he does better than durant ever?


Durant is at least still trying to be the best player on his mega team... wade begged lebron/bosh to come and took a backseat... Dont throw stones at durant while wade lives in a glass house my dude

LakersEaglesLA
07-31-2018, 11:27 PM
In what year did the opposing teams come in game planning around Kobe while Shaq was there?
In what year did the other team come in thinking all we need to do is stop Kobe?


Kobe his first 2 championships he was a role player at best... Kobe was not a star. He was a young player with high upside that was coddled and carried because the other team only focused on stopping the most unstoppable player we have seen since wilt and more recently lebron. Teams doubled Shaq constantly and he would still drop 38/12 on them nightly. I am so sick and tired of the lets find any avenue to elevate our player... Kobe is an all time great top 11 in almost every persons all time great lists... He would be 9th best to me in which i argue him over most compared to other people on here but for whatever reason its the same dumb stuff in this thread that has always been my number 1 criticism of laker fans.

Its always always been Kobe has 5 rings him having Shaq is irrelevant... Him being gifted Gasol is irrelevant... He has 5 rings yada yada yada... Which is true... But now Durant who is going to flat out be better and probably end up a top 5 player is having his supporting cast held against him by lakers fans who have argued until they were blue in the face when arguing for kobe that rings/end all be all? You can not sit here and take away from durants accomplishments because he has won these rings with this super team but not take away from kobe when he was carried by a top 5 player and possibly the GOAT Dominating force we might have ever seen along side him.

Kobe 1st Championship ave 23 6 and 5..... Kobe 2nd Championship ave 29 6 and 5.... You sound like you tryna change history bro.. Everyone in America Understood Kobe was a Star.. Shaq more than Anyone considering Kobe had to be the Closer in Playoffs Because Shaq Couldn't shoot free throws smh

More-Than-Most
07-31-2018, 11:34 PM
Kobe 1st Championship ave 23 6 and 5..... Kobe 2nd Championship ave 29 6 and 5.... You sound like you tryna change history bro.. Everyone in America Understood Kobe was a Star.. Shaq more than Anyone considering Kobe had to be the Closer in Playoffs Because Shaq Couldn't shoot free throws smh

do you wanna see what Shaq did while double teamed those years? Role player that second year for kobe def isnt accurate but he was never the best player on his team while with shaq. It was Shaq and crew.


per 36 in the playoffs

19/4/4 on 44pct shooting

2nd championship 24/6/5 on 47 percent shooting

3rd championship-22/5/3 on 43pct shooting


you wanna see what Shaq did?????

26/13 56 pct shooting

26/13 59pct shooting

25/11 53 pct shooting


all of this while being the one other teams tried to stop.

More-Than-Most
07-31-2018, 11:43 PM
even on the warriors Durant was still their best player both years. He didnt take a backseat like kobe/wade did for Shaq/Lebron. Again durants a massive puss but on the court his play is alpha like even if his mentality isnt.

WaDe03
07-31-2018, 11:47 PM
even on the warriors Durant was still their best player both years. He didnt take a backseat like kobe/wade did for Shaq/Lebron. Again durants a massive puss but on the court his play is alpha like even if his mentality isnt.

He shouldnít take a back seat, heís their best player. Hereís the difference, Kobe was young taking a back seat to a top 8 player ever, Wade was leaving his prime taking a back seat to the 2nd best player ever. But like I said, idc about his numbers against single coverage on a stacked team.

WaDe03
07-31-2018, 11:51 PM
older shaq that still demanded double teams... Again Durant statistically out did anything wade ever did in any of wades playoffs... This is what i mean about people loving 1 player with 0 actual weight to any of their arguments outside of talking out the wrong end and defending just to defend. Wade shouldnt even be mentioned in the same breath as durant because durant already flew by him... We get it you love wade... Tell me what he does better than durant ever?


Durant is at least still trying to be the best player on his mega team... wade begged lebron/bosh to come and took a backseat... Dont throw stones at durant while wade lives in a glass house my dude

I listed multiple things Wade was better at than Durant. Please tell me what playoffs KD has had that are better than Wades in 06 that didnít involve him being on a 73-9 team and being guarded in single coverage.

Last I checked Wade was the established champion when LeBron and Bosh fled their teams to join Wade. Oh yeah, it was LeBrons idea to team up in the first place. If peak Wade and Kobe were in the league right now there would actually be a debate as who the best player in the league was instead of it just being LeBron with no debate. That should tell you a little about the level of KD, Curry, Harden etc.

WaDe03
07-31-2018, 11:53 PM
If my opinion is opposite of MTMs I feel very good about it.

More-Than-Most
08-01-2018, 12:50 AM
If my opinion is opposite of MTMs I feel very good about it.

feeling good about being wrong-pat riley when he signed whiteside long term

More-Than-Most
08-01-2018, 12:51 AM
I listed multiple things Wade was better at than Durant. Please tell me what playoffs KD has had that are better than Wades in 06 that didnít involve him being on a 73-9 team and being guarded in single coverage.

Last I checked Wade was the established champion when LeBron and Bosh fled their teams to join Wade. Oh yeah, it was LeBrons idea to team up in the first place. If peak Wade and Kobe were in the league right now there would actually be a debate as who the best player in the league was instead of it just being LeBron with no debate. That should tell you a little about the level of KD, Curry, Harden etc.

wait... you think there was a debate then???? If peak/wade kobe were in the league right now with 300 year old lebron lebron is still the best player in the world without a 2nd thought... same as back then. Kevin Durants peak ***** on wade/kobes peak... Kobe has longevity to keep him in the durant/kobe argument... wade has nothing.

MygirlhatesCod
08-01-2018, 08:12 AM
wait... you think there was a debate then???? If peak/wade kobe were in the league right now with 300 year old lebron lebron is still the best player in the world without a 2nd thought... same as back then. Kevin Durants peak ***** on wade/kobes peak... Kobe has longevity to keep him in the durant/kobe argument... wade has nothing.

he has china.

MygirlhatesCod
08-01-2018, 08:13 AM
wait... you think there was a debate then???? If peak/wade kobe were in the league right now with 300 year old lebron lebron is still the best player in the world without a 2nd thought... same as back then. Kevin Durants peak ***** on wade/kobes peak... Kobe has longevity to keep him in the durant/kobe argument... wade has nothing.

and injuries.

MygirlhatesCod
08-01-2018, 08:17 AM
wait... you think there was a debate then???? If peak/wade kobe were in the league right now with 300 year old lebron lebron is still the best player in the world without a 2nd thought... same as back then. Kevin Durants peak ***** on wade/kobes peak... Kobe has longevity to keep him in the durant/kobe argument... wade has nothing.

he also has 14 years in the league but in that span has missed 412 games!!!! that's 5 seasons worth of missed games yo...........

tredigs
08-01-2018, 08:32 AM
he also has 14 years in the league but in that span has missed 412 games!!!! that's 5 seasons worth of missed games yo...........

And has never played 80 games. Insane. Talk about a ****ing cupcake. PEAK Wade '05-'10 in the playoffs was a spectactle though. Better than peak Kobe.

WaDe03
08-01-2018, 09:13 AM
And has never played 80 games. Insane. Talk about a ****ing cupcake. PEAK Wade '05-'10 in the playoffs was a spectactle though. Better than peak Kobe.

A cupcake that was stronger than majority of the guards, if not all of them in the league at one point.