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View Full Version : Dante Exum 3yr $33M w/Jazz



beasted86
07-06-2018, 10:25 AM
http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/23987540/dante-exum-agrees-extension-utah-jazz

Not understanding why they bid against themselves. Are some of the years team options? Too risky IMO and didn't earn that contact at all.

YAALREADYKNO
07-06-2018, 11:33 AM
Damn, not bad for a guy who averages 5ppg in his career and played only 24 games last year including the playoffs.

IndyRealist
07-06-2018, 11:54 AM
Sunk cost fallacy.

beasted86
07-06-2018, 09:17 PM
Damn, not bad for a guy who averages 5ppg in his career and played only 24 games last year including the playoffs.

Can't forget the lights out 39% FG , 31% 3PT

More-Than-Most
07-06-2018, 09:23 PM
now this is exactly what i talked about in the other thread... the jazz are a very good team yet they do something this stupid... this dude is bad and gets 33 mill... alright. There is no upside in this deal at all. This is exactly what I was talking about how overpays are overpays but overpays can be good for bad teams... this move doesnt help the jazz at all.

Chronz
07-06-2018, 09:39 PM
He's gonna bust out. Guaranteed

GiantsSwaGG
07-06-2018, 11:21 PM
The guy didnít do **** and he got 33 million

mightybosstone
07-07-2018, 12:00 AM
I don't understand this deal at all. Far better players have gotten worse deals than this. Who was Utah bidding against?

FlashBolt
07-07-2018, 02:48 AM
I don't understand this deal at all. Far better players have gotten worse deals than this. Who was Utah bidding against?

I'm guessing they are gambling on his potential still because there is no reasoning to this signing.

mightybosstone
07-07-2018, 09:24 AM
I'm guessing they are gambling on his potential still because there is no reasoning to this signing.

I'm not sure I get what Utah has done so far this summer. They overpaid Favors and then backed it up for an overpay to Batum. Checking out Spotrac, it would appear that Favors deal was made to give them more flexibility next season, when Rubio and Burks come off the books and they might feasibly have cap room. But if that's the case, why give Batum three years? Why not just sign him to a one-year deal or sign some other role playing wing to a more team-friendly deal?

I get that it's a smaller market, so they probably have to pay guys at a premium to keep them at times. But I still think both deals were unnecessary overpays.

hugepatsfan
07-07-2018, 10:09 AM
Seems like an overpay in terms of long ter commitment. I will say though, I remember as a Celtics fan Bradley and Crowder extensions were planned but then they grew beyond them and they were steals. You always want to maintain flexibility and short term deals helpnthat. But itís long term deals where the player progresses that you really lock inbsurplus value to help build going forward.

beasted86
07-07-2018, 10:31 AM
Seems like an overpay in terms of long ter commitment. I will say though, I remember as a Celtics fan Bradley and Crowder extensions were planned but then they grew beyond them and they were steals. You always want to maintain flexibility and short term deals helpnthat. But itís long term deals where the player progresses that you really lock inbsurplus value to help build going forward.

Problem is he would have to grow so much just to break even. Next year I don't predict him as a 12 PPG on good efficiency and at least average defense. For me that's the break even point for a guard on this type of contact.

beasted86
07-07-2018, 10:45 AM
To put things further in context, Exum will be making the same as teammate Ingles the next 3 years.

Contacts like this are problematic for the league because the next guy says "I definitely deserve more than him". It's that logic comparison that got John Wall $38-$44M per year.

hugepatsfan
07-07-2018, 12:17 PM
Problem is he would have to grow so much just to break even. Next year I don't predict him as a 12 PPG on good efficiency and at least average defense. For me that's the break even point for a guard on this type of contact.

Definitely valid concerns. I donít like the deal either. But he was extremely highly touted we have to remember. Heís had a lot of injury problems and I donít think itís unreasonable that they still think he could tap into his ultimate potential (still very young). Jazz are a smart organization and they know him better than anyone having watched him for 4 years on the court and in rehab. So I do give them some benefit of the doubt.

dhopisthename
07-07-2018, 01:04 PM
Problem is he would have to grow so much just to break even. Next year I don't predict him as a 12 PPG on good efficiency and at least average defense. For me that's the break even point for a guard on this type of contact.

I understand why non fans would see this as such a weird signing, but you have to remember that he is only 22 about to be 23 years old. Also, the Jazz coaches and front office guys really believe that he can be a very good player. per 36 last year he averaged 17.5/6.6/4 on 56.6 ts% and really good defense. I don't think he has to grow that much for this to be a fair deal and if he can stay healthy and play like he did when he was healthy last year this is a good deal for the Jazz. The health if by far the biggest obstacle for him though which you can say both injuries were just fluke injuries, but some people just have a body type that doesn't stay healthy we have to see.

BKLYNpigeon
07-07-2018, 01:09 PM
low key good signing. Exum is a good player, just has to stay healthy. Its a small prove it contract, and could pay off.

Everyone said Curry 4 years 44m was a terrible contract...

Vinylman
07-07-2018, 01:13 PM
I understand why non fans would see this as such a weird signing, but you have to remember that he is only 22 about to be 23 years old. Also, the Jazz coaches and front office guys really believe that he can be a very good player. per 36 last year he averaged 17.5/6.6/4 on 56.6 ts% and really good defense. I don't think he has to grow that much for this to be a fair deal and if he can stay healthy and play like he did when he was healthy last year this is a good deal for the Jazz. The health if by far the biggest obstacle for him though which you can say both injuries were just fluke injuries, but some people just have a body type that doesn't stay healthy we have to see.

lol

he played 14 games last year so those stats you posted are meaningless...

ANYWAY... is he worth $11 million per year... sure on a 1 or 2 year deal if the second year is a team option.

This is a massive overpay for a guy who probably doesn't even get a sheet on the open market because of the 3 year minimum deal to get one.

the signing won't cripple them but it definitely isn't a market deal and in fact is far from it.

BKLYNpigeon
07-07-2018, 01:23 PM
The Jazz will never get a top tier FA.

They have to Draft, Develop and keep their own players.

GiantsSwaGG
07-07-2018, 01:38 PM
low key good signing. Exum is a good player, just has to stay healthy. Its a small prove it contract, and could pay off.

Everyone said Curry 4 years 44m was a terrible contract...

Itís a bad signing, I donít mind them keeping him but who the **** was going to give him 33 million?

Vinylman
07-07-2018, 01:39 PM
The Jazz will never get a top tier FA.

They have to Draft, Develop and keep their own players.

sure Ö and avoid overpaying

If someone thinks exum gets that sheet on the street they are nuts

dhopisthename
07-07-2018, 02:08 PM
lol

he played 14 games last year so those stats you posted are meaningless...

ANYWAY... is he worth $11 million per year... sure on a 1 or 2 year deal if the second year is a team option.

This is a massive overpay for a guy who probably doesn't even get a sheet on the open market because of the 3 year minimum deal to get one.

the signing won't cripple them but it definitely isn't a market deal and in fact is far from it.

obviously small sample size, but it shows that he can put up good numbers with good efficiency and good defense. 11 million isn't that much at all

Vinylman
07-07-2018, 02:15 PM
obviously small sample size, but it shows that he can put up good numbers with good efficiency and good defense. 11 million isn't that much at all

like I said Ö the rate isn't the issue... its the guaranteed years

dhopisthename
07-07-2018, 02:21 PM
I'm not sure I get what Utah has done so far this summer. They overpaid Favors and then backed it up for an overpay to Batum. Checking out Spotrac, it would appear that Favors deal was made to give them more flexibility next season, when Rubio and Burks come off the books and they might feasibly have cap room. But if that's the case, why give Batum three years? Why not just sign him to a one-year deal or sign some other role playing wing to a more team-friendly deal?

I get that it's a smaller market, so they probably have to pay guys at a premium to keep them at times. But I still think both deals were unnecessary overpays.

The Jazz were stuck in cap limbo. we could have made max cap space, but it would have required giving up most of our depth and its not like PG was never leaving and Lebron wasn't coming here. So they just resigned all their guys back from a squad that finished the year 28-6. Favors salary really doesn't matter since its likely a one year deal based on twitter reports that the second year is a team option. Exum's deal is a deal based on his potential. So this year they brought the squad back hoping that Mitchell improves, Ricky gets more comfortable, and Exum gets a full year healthy. Then next offseason we will have 50+ mill in cap space where we can hopefully make a few more moves.

dhopisthename
07-07-2018, 02:25 PM
like I said Ö the rate isn't the issue... its the guaranteed years

The reality of this deal is that its likely either an overpay if he gets hurt again or doesn't develope any more or its a underpay if he plays like he did last year when he was healthy. The Jazz took a chance that its the latter. They said all year that they still believed in him and think both his injuries where just fluke things.

beasted86
07-07-2018, 06:52 PM
The reality of this deal is that its likely either an overpay if he gets hurt again or doesn't develope any more or its a underpay if he plays like he did last year when he was healthy. The Jazz took a chance that its the latter. They said all year that they still believed in him and think both his injuries where just fluke things.

For 8 and 3 with average defense and efficiency $11M is an underpay?

He averaged 5 PPG in the playoffs.

Help me understand. Maybe there's something I'm missing.

dhopisthename
07-07-2018, 08:19 PM
For 8 and 3 with average defense and efficiency $11M is an underpay?

He averaged 5 PPG in the playoffs.

Help me understand. Maybe there's something I'm missing.

8/3 in 17 minutes coming off major shoulder surgery. his quickness is ridiculous and it allows him to get to the rim at will and defend very well. again per 36 was 17.5/6.6/4 on 56.6 ts% last year with elite defensive potential. 11 million is barely more then the MLE at this point. to put it into perspective he was playing better then any other guards on our team before he got hurt.

beasted86
07-07-2018, 08:44 PM
8/3 in 17 minutes coming off major shoulder surgery. his quickness is ridiculous and it allows him to get to the rim at will and defend very well. again per 36 was 17.5/6.6/4 on 56.6 ts% last year with elite defensive potential. 11 million is barely more then the MLE at this point. to put it into perspective he was playing better then any other guards on our team before he got hurt.

Smells like Alec Burks from the description. How did that turn out?

Some teams never learn with these "untapped potential" contacts given to injury prone players.

dhopisthename
07-08-2018, 01:45 PM
Smells like Alec Burks from the description. How did that turn out?

Some teams never learn with these "untapped potential" contacts given to injury prone players.

for every alec burks contract the Jazz sign they have joe ingles, Royce oneal, and derrick favors(old contract). Also, burks contract wasn't really potential. he had put up 14/3/4 the two years prior, but after singing the extension paul pierce undercut him on a layup and he hasn't been the same since.

JAZZNC
07-08-2018, 06:51 PM
Smells like Alec Burks from the description. How did that turn out?

Some teams never learn with these "untapped potential" contacts given to injury prone players.

I'd much rather pay Exum his contract than pay Whiteside his. It's definitely based on potential and they may have been able to get him for less, who knows. And if he stays healthy it'll be a fine contract. I truly think the FO envisions a backcourt of Exum/Mitchell and it makes sense barring injury. Only time will tell.

basch152
07-08-2018, 07:33 PM
it's hilarious how crazy people get about these contracts because they can't grasp the fact that the salary cap keeps skyrocketing and they're stuck in 2010 when 11 mil a year was actually big.

11 million now is the equivalent of about 6-7 million in the mid 2000s.

this isn't some insanely huge contract.

people have to understand that in todays salary cap range ****** players are going to get 10 mil a year contracts.

beasted86
07-08-2018, 07:39 PM
I'd much rather pay Exum his contract than pay Whiteside his. It's definitely based on potential and they may have been able to get him for less, who knows. And if he stays healthy it'll be a fine contract. I truly think the FO envisions a backcourt of Exum/Mitchell and it makes sense barring injury. Only time will tell.
What does Whiteside have to do with any of this? I know he's overpaid. If he continued playing like he did 2016-2017 he would be at break even on his contact.

Exum did nothing to be worth this contact and has a long way to go before Jazz break even on value.

Joe Ingles, Josh Richardson, Dion Waiters, Kelly Olynk all these guys make basically the same as Exum for the next 3 years, between $11-12M. And all of those guys are way, way better already, and could similarly improve widening the gap an absurd amount still.

If we're even canceling the comparison discussion... I'm still not understanding who the Jazz were bidding against with this deal. Who would have given him $10M+ on 1yr let alone 3 years? If he went back overseas he wouldn't sniff $10M either.

But it's whatever. If you guys are happy with the contract and the office is, that's good for you guys.

steamroller
07-09-2018, 04:17 AM
low key good signing. Exum is a good player, just has to stay healthy. Its a small prove it contract, and could pay off.

Everyone said Curry 4 years 44m was a terrible contract...

There's no way you just compared Steph to Exum. Exum shot 27% from 3's at age 22. Curry shot 44%.

Garbage signing by Utah. This is Luol Deng, Mozgov tier bad.

Vinylman
07-09-2018, 07:12 AM
it's hilarious how crazy people get about these contracts because they can't grasp the fact that the salary cap keeps skyrocketing and they're stuck in 2010 when 11 mil a year was actually big.

11 million now is the equivalent of about 6-7 million in the mid 2000s.

this isn't some insanely huge contract.

people have to understand that in todays salary cap range ****** players are going to get 10 mil a year contracts.

its a massive overpay in terms of years and the competitive landscape Ö your supposed "Analysis" is what is hilarious

FlashBolt
07-09-2018, 07:37 AM
It can pay off if Exum stays healthy. It's a bet off potential.. why are you guys so upset? Utah likely can't recruit any top free agents and are looking to rebuild with their current core. Worry about your own team.. Basch is right. People need to start looking at the % of salary a player takes up rather than the whole number. The league's salary cap will continue increasing and Dante, if he can just stay healthy, is worth a 10% salary cap risk for a small market team who can't attract free agents.

FlashBolt
07-09-2018, 07:39 AM
its a massive overpay in terms of years and the competitive landscape Ö your supposed "Analysis" is what is hilarious

Utah ain't the Lakers. They couldn't even get Gordon to resign. What makes you think they can recruit top free agents? They aren't the Lakers.. if they were, they wouldn't even think to resign Exum. You're a Lakers fan so it makes no sense from your perspective but small market teams sometimes have to take these risks.

dhopisthename
07-09-2018, 01:08 PM
btw

@EricPincus

Dante Exum will have a cap hit of $9.6 mil flat over 3 - but that can drop to $9.1 mil or climb to $11 mil per based on incentives w/Utah Jazz @BBallInsiders

Rivera
07-09-2018, 04:32 PM
not a bad deal, he can play some D and is still young even though it seems hes been around forever. he feels like a college player who has stayed all 4 years and its like, exum still is playing at duke?

but considering the Jazz situation, not a bad deal that can be a great deal down the line. even if dante is what he is, hes the very least, a good defender

Firefistus
07-09-2018, 05:01 PM
Joe Ingles, Josh Richardson, Dion Waiters, Kelly Olynk You mention these players, but all of them are well older than Exum. How is it that these guys can have deals and somehow improve (even though most of them are in their prime at this point). And Exum is going to remain stagnant the rest of his career. As Flashbolt stated, it's a bet that he's going to be healthy and can turn into something.

The Jazz front office still believes in him, they're the ones that work with him everyday. I find it funny that people are getting all bent out of shape over signing him. People said the EXACT same thing with Joe Ingles last year. THE EXACT SAME THING. And now Joe Ingles is a bargain, as his contract is a front loaded contract (meaning he gets paid less every year).

beasted86
07-09-2018, 06:16 PM
Exum will be 23 in less than a week. Richardson is 24.

Nobody is bent out of shape. I already said if you guys are happy great. But to put it plainly, Exum did nothing to earn this contract. I think you guys have in a round about way agreed with that sentiment. We're talking about a guy that has scored double digits 37 times, and 4 or more assists 21 times in his 3 year career. This was not the player they expected to get who played like he did in FIBA.

Vinylman
07-09-2018, 07:18 PM
Utah ain't the Lakers. They couldn't even get Gordon to resign. What makes you think they can recruit top free agents? They aren't the Lakers.. if they were, they wouldn't even think to resign Exum. You're a Lakers fan so it makes no sense from your perspective but small market teams sometimes have to take these risks.

sighÖ they could match any sheet he signed... he wasn't getting a 3/33 from any other team Ö he would have been lucky to get a sheet...

like I said early on Ö I don't have a problem with the 11 per Ö its the years Ö dude would have gladly taken 2/22 with only 1 year guaranteed.


it has nothing to do with him playin in Utah... its a bad deal for the current market...

steamroller
07-09-2018, 11:27 PM
Utah ain't the Lakers. They couldn't even get Gordon to resign. What makes you think they can recruit top free agents? They aren't the Lakers.. if they were, they wouldn't even think to resign Exum. You're a Lakers fan so it makes no sense from your perspective but small market teams sometimes have to take these risks.

The Lakers have had zero success in signing important free agents until Lebron. And Lebron only has 2 years left in his prime. The last time they signed anyone of import was with Shaq, and that was 22 years ago.

basch152
07-10-2018, 10:06 PM
its a massive overpay in terms of years and the competitive landscape Ö your supposed "Analysis" is what is hilarious

it wasn't analysis.

and yeah, overpay, but kot nearly as bad as people are making it. 11 mil isnt that insane towards the salary cap anymore and they're expecting it to continue skyrocketing.

soon we'll see players even worse getting 10 mil contracts.

steamroller
07-11-2018, 01:59 AM
Another dumb contract. With zero competing offers, the Jazz could've signed him for a lot less. NBA owners just love to piss away money. It's unbelievable.

Scoots
07-17-2018, 01:24 PM
If healthy Exum is absolutely worth it. If he signed a 1 year deal and played like he could next year he would get a lot more.

Vinylman
07-17-2018, 02:13 PM
If healthy Exum is absolutely worth it. If he signed a 1 year deal and played like he could next year he would get a lot more.

nope... the market is horrid and will only be worse next year

Scoots
07-17-2018, 03:33 PM
nope... the market is horrid and will only be worse next year

So, if Exum absolutely kills it next year you are saying, in a market where wings are at a premium, that there are no teams that will offer a 6'6" athletic player with long arms who is an elite defender and decent scorer $12M when there is a huge amount more money available?

I think you are wrong, but we'll never know both because he's not going to be a UFA next year and because he's not likely to be 100% healthy all year.

Vinylman
07-17-2018, 03:49 PM
So, if Exum absolutely kills it next year you are saying, in a market where wings are at a premium, that there are no teams that will offer a 6'6" athletic player with long arms who is an elite defender and decent scorer $12M when there is a huge amount more money available?

I think you are wrong, but we'll never know both because he's not going to be a UFA next year and because he's not likely to be 100% healthy all year.

if he is healthy... which was your post... he still isn't getting more next year under the same circumstances as this year (ie RFA)Ö I will take it a step further... if he thought that he was gonna be healthy and blow up he wouldn't have signed the deal he just did.


I will be more than happy to revisit this thread in 9 months

Scoots
07-17-2018, 04:15 PM
if he is healthy... which was your post... he still isn't getting more next year under the same circumstances as this year (ie RFA)Ö I will take it a step further... if he thought that he was gonna be healthy and blow up he wouldn't have signed the deal he just did.


I will be more than happy to revisit this thread in 9 months

He would have been a UFA next year, not RFA. It's the Jazz protecting themselves from losing a player they put work into and betting he'll be healthy, Exum was unwilling to risk not being healthy and losing out. Neither side makes it a bad deal.

If he's not healthy or he is healthy and his game regresses then it will be a bad deal.

steamroller
07-19-2018, 02:49 AM
He would have been a UFA next year, not RFA. It's the Jazz protecting themselves from losing a player they put work into and betting he'll be healthy, Exum was unwilling to risk not being healthy and losing out. Neither side makes it a bad deal.

If he's not healthy or he is healthy and his game regresses then it will be a bad deal.

So who's backing up the brinks truck for him next offseason? No one. The team just tossed away a ton of money for no good reason.

Honestly, he's not a very valuable player. Just a solid rotation player with middling potential. And that's only if he can stay healthy. Stupid move.

beasted86
07-19-2018, 02:00 PM
He would have been a UFA next year, not RFA. It's the Jazz protecting themselves from losing a player they put work into and betting he'll be healthy, Exum was unwilling to risk not being healthy and losing out. Neither side makes it a bad deal.

If he's not healthy or he is healthy and his game regresses then it will be a bad deal.

If Jazz need to protect themselves from losing a completely average player their entire business model is broken.

If Exum doubles his scoring production he basically becomes Will Barton who just signed for 4/54 basically $13.5M per. Exum just got $11M per for being half the player + injuries. Yes he's 4 years younger, but nonetheless it applies.

Scoots
07-19-2018, 08:54 PM
If Jazz need to protect themselves from losing a completely average player their entire business model is broken.

If Exum doubles his scoring production he basically becomes Will Barton who just signed for 4/54 basically $13.5M per. Exum just got $11M per for being half the player + injuries. Yes he's 4 years younger, but nonetheless it applies.

1. I said assuming he is healthy.

2. If he doubles his scoring he's twice the player Barton is (and I really like Barton) because he plays great defense and Barton doesn't know what defense is.

MannyWood
07-20-2018, 01:09 AM
If Jazz need to protect themselves from losing a completely average player their entire business model is broken.

If Exum doubles his scoring production he basically becomes Will Barton who just signed for 4/54 basically $13.5M per. Exum just got $11M per for being half the player + injuries. Yes he's 4 years younger, but nonetheless it applies.

You just nailed it. 4 years younger and he has been hurt. They bet on youth and development. Better than mlb letting him go and watch him turn it around somewhere else

beasted86
07-20-2018, 08:09 AM
1. I said assuming he is healthy.

2. If he doubles his scoring he's twice the player Barton is (and I really like Barton) because he plays great defense and Barton doesn't know what defense is.

Then... Avery Bradley just signed 2yr $25M or $12.5M per year, same 4 yr age gap. 14 PPG and waaay better defense than Exum. Just whole different level of better.


You guys can keep trying, but by comparison with what everyone else got this is an overpay. If Jazz are in the business of overpaying because of their market or if they are happy with him and this contact, kudos to them. But nonetheless it's an overpay.

MannyWood
07-20-2018, 09:28 AM
Then... Avery Bradley just signed 2yr $25M or $12.5M per year, same 4 yr age gap. 14 PPG and waaay better defense than Exum. Just whole different level of better.


You guys can keep trying, but by comparison with what everyone else got this is an overpay. If Jazz are in the business of overpaying because of their market or if they are happy with him and this contact, kudos to them. But nonetheless it's an overpay.

Avery Bradley sucks at defense and offense. You might want to make another comparison

WaDe03
07-20-2018, 09:40 AM
Avery Bradley sucks at defense and offense. You might want to make another comparison

Avery Bradley was the 2nd best perimeter defender in the league behind Kawhi when he was on Boston, he was injured last year. Offensively heís pretty solid for a role player too so idk what youíre talking about lol

MannyWood
07-20-2018, 09:48 AM
Avery Bradley was the 2nd best perimeter defender in the league behind Kawhi when he was on Boston, he was injured last year. Offensively heís pretty solid for a role player too so idk what youíre talking about lol

Nah. He was good at defending his 1st 2 or 3 years in the NBA. Has been below average ever since. His numbers clearly show it and last season he totally fell off on the offensive end also.

WaDe03
07-20-2018, 09:58 AM
Nah. He was good at defending his 1st 2 or 3 years in the NBA. Has been below average ever since. His numbers clearly show it and last season he totally fell off on the offensive end also.

He was injured last season. The players will tell you themselves heís a top 2 perimeter defender. **** the numbers.

MannyWood
07-20-2018, 10:01 AM
He was injured last season. The players will tell you themselves heís a top 2 perimeter defender. **** the numbers.
What players have told you this? Lol
I'll go by his career numbers and you can go by eye test and what players have told you.

WaDe03
07-20-2018, 10:05 AM
What players have told you this? Lol
I'll go by his career numbers and you can go by eye test and what players have told you.

CJ McCollumn said heís the best defender thatís ever guarded him. Itís well known around the league, Iím sure you could google it and find plenty of quotes. Youíre take on him both defensively and offensively is so far off.

MannyWood
07-20-2018, 10:08 AM
CJ McCollumn said heís the best defender thatís ever guarded him. Itís well known around the league, Iím sure you could google it and find plenty of quotes. Youíre take on him both defensively and offensively is so far off.
Don't need to. He isn't good anymore, hasn't been for a while. Maybe he had a good game against CJ. Numbers still show he hasn't been good at defending for a while

WaDe03
07-20-2018, 10:14 AM
Don't need to. He isn't good anymore, hasn't been for a while. Maybe he had a good game against CJ. Numbers still show he hasn't been good at defending for a while

Which should tell you numbers arenít everything. Numbers tell me Wade was the best/most impactful player on the Cavs last year.

He was elite defensively and pretty damn good offensively his last year in Boston, the year after he left Boston he was injured and was playing through it for awhile. Thatís what hurt him. Now he should be healthy and good to go.

MannyWood
07-20-2018, 10:18 AM
Which should tell you numbers arenít everything. Numbers tell me Wade was the best/most impactful player on the Cavs last year.

He was elite defensively and pretty damn good offensively his last year in Boston, the year after he left Boston he was injured and was playing through it for awhile. Thatís what hurt him. Now he should be healthy and good to go.

You believe what you want. I don't know what you are trying to prove. It doesn't change my opinion of him or his numbers

beasted86
07-20-2018, 04:31 PM
You believe what you want. I don't know what you are trying to prove. It doesn't change my opinion of him or his numbers

Nobody has the opinion Exum is a standout defender except for homers.

steamroller
07-20-2018, 05:16 PM
No-one thinks this is a good signing. Except for homers. Dumb homers at that. Doh!

MannyWood
07-20-2018, 05:20 PM
Nobody has the opinion Exum is a standout defender except for homers.

Who claimed Exumbis a standout defender? All I said was Bradley isn't good.

Firefistus
07-20-2018, 06:16 PM
Alright, lets clear some things up. It's 9 million with 2 million in incentives.

Ricky Rubio is the best defender at guard. Exum is number 2. Utah has the best perimeter defense in the league, with the lowest OPP 3% and the least amount of opposing three pointers made in the league.

Let me re-iterate. Exum is our number 2 defensive guard. Ask anyone who watches him play, they will all concur this.

This isn't a good signing, but it isn't a bad signing. Utah has the extra money, and they'll have loads of cash next season.

And if Exum desn't play well, or doesn't improve, or doesn't play because of injury, they'll wind up spending 9 million a year on him. If he performs better than anticipated than we'll pa 11 million a year and everyone will magically be ok with the signing.

People said the EXACT same thing about Hayward, and the last year of his deal he wound up being an all-star. Suddenly he's on a good contract. Parker just got 20 million and is a defensive sieve. He is strictly a one way player, so much so that he actually negatively impacts the floor. And yet, you don't hear anyone complain about his 20 million dollar contract.

Exum is getting half that, is the same age, has an injured background as well, is one of, if not THE fastest guard in the league, has better defense, but doesn't have a developed offensive game yet. And he's not worth half of what Parker is worth? GTFO.

And for those of you that think I'm a homer, I'm a Jazz homer, but I'm by no means an Exum homer. I like Rubio a whole lot more than Exum, and think Rubio's going to have an amazing season this year. I'm hoping Exum will improve, but I honestly don't think he'll be on the floor more than half the season due to some freak injury. But to say he's average at defense is laughable, and quite frankly naive.

steamroller
07-20-2018, 09:25 PM
It doesn't matter how great he is on defense. No one was bidding against you!

He's only played 80 games in the last two seasons and is shooting an abysmal 39% from the field, and 30% from 3's. Not to mention he only gives you 17 mpg over 2 seasons! So he's averaging 40 games a season, 17 minutes a game, and he's worth $11 million. No. He's not worth $9 million.

Let another team make an offer and see what he's worth. Because it's not $9 million.

steamroller
07-20-2018, 09:27 PM
You're comparing this guy to Gordon Hayward????

beasted86
07-21-2018, 09:48 AM
Alright, lets clear some things up. It's 9 million with 2 million in incentives.

Ricky Rubio is the best defender at guard. Exum is number 2. Utah has the best perimeter defense in the league, with the lowest OPP 3% and the least amount of opposing three pointers made in the league.

Let me re-iterate. Exum is our number 2 defensive guard. Ask anyone who watches him play, they will all concur this.

This isn't a good signing, but it isn't a bad signing. Utah has the extra money, and they'll have loads of cash next season.

And if Exum desn't play well, or doesn't improve, or doesn't play because of injury, they'll wind up spending 9 million a year on him. If he performs better than anticipated than we'll pa 11 million a year and everyone will magically be ok with the signing.

People said the EXACT same thing about Hayward, and the last year of his deal he wound up being an all-star. Suddenly he's on a good contract. Parker just got 20 million and is a defensive sieve. He is strictly a one way player, so much so that he actually negatively impacts the floor. And yet, you don't hear anyone complain about his 20 million dollar contract.

Exum is getting half that, is the same age, has an injured background as well, is one of, if not THE fastest guard in the league, has better defense, but doesn't have a developed offensive game yet. And he's not worth half of what Parker is worth? GTFO.

And for those of you that think I'm a homer, I'm a Jazz homer, but I'm by no means an Exum homer. I like Rubio a whole lot more than Exum, and think Rubio's going to have an amazing season this year. I'm hoping Exum will improve, but I honestly don't think he'll be on the floor more than half the season due to some freak injury. But to say he's average at defense is laughable, and quite frankly naive.

It's homer blinded when you quote Utahs defensive rating and include a guy who played less than 25 games total regular and playoff seasons combined.

A few mocked the Parker contract, but most don't complain because Parker got a 1yr deal entirely. Parker has also won a few games in his career with just his offense. Exum really hasn't won any games for Utah, neither with offense nor defense. Exum may be fast but he's also weak.

Scoots
07-21-2018, 12:44 PM
It's homer blinded when you quote Utahs defensive rating and include a guy who played less than 25 games total regular and playoff seasons combined.

No question the Exum contract is an optimistic projection. IF he is healthy he can outplay the contract, if he's not healthy it's going to be wasted money. What seems to be happening is that people are denying the first and holding on to the second. Sometimes such deals can really pay off.

beasted86
07-21-2018, 03:32 PM
No question the Exum contract is an optimistic projection. IF he is healthy he can outplay the contract, if he's not healthy it's going to be wasted money. What seems to be happening is that people are denying the first and holding on to the second. Sometimes such deals can really pay off.

Not really in my personal takeaway because there are 3 options.

A. If he is healthy and doesn't improve he will be overpaid.
-I wouldn't pay a backup PG averaging 8 PPG regular season and 5PPG in the playoffs $11M. No way no how. He would have be an NBA first team shut down defender like Tony Allen in his prime, and even then Allen never made more than $5M in his career. Even with cap inflation Exum is higher paid than Allen was.


B. If he improves and he's injured he's still overpaid
- With his history and lack of bulk there's few reasons to be super optimistic health wise

C. If he is healthy and improves he could be either paid fairly or underpaid
- I feel he would have to improve night and day to be underpaid. Paid "just right" is the realistic optimistic outlook.

Scoots
07-21-2018, 05:09 PM
Not really in my personal takeaway because there are 3 options.

A. If he is healthy and doesn't improve he will be overpaid.
-I wouldn't pay a backup PG averaging 8 PPG regular season and 5PPG in the playoffs $11M. No way no how. He would have be an NBA first team shut down defender like Tony Allen in his prime, and even then Allen never made more than $5M in his career. Even with cap inflation Exum is higher paid than Allen was.


B. If he improves and he's injured he's still overpaid
- With his history and lack of bulk there's few reasons to be super optimistic health wise

C. If he is healthy and improves he could be either paid fairly or underpaid
- I feel he would have to improve night and day to be underpaid. Paid "just right" is the realistic optimistic outlook.

We agree on B. I think on A and he doesn't improve from when we last saw him he'll get more minutes and be about on par for the money he'll be making.

On C, you say he could be underpaid, but then say the optimistic outlook has him paid "just right" which doesn't make logical sense. Clearly this is what the Jazz are betting on and Exum wasn't confident enough or have a good enough history to get better money ... so clearly the Jazz gave him the money to keep him happy, but they can justify the money based on what they've seen of him, and I don't believe you have a better take on his ability than the Jazz do. From what I've seen in admittedly brief flashes Exum could be much better than that money based on what so many other players in the NBA are being paid now, even if it doesn't show up in the box score directly next to his name. Exum can effect the game like Marcus Smart and Draymond Green can, if in somewhat different ways ... not that he will, but that the potential is there.

steamroller
07-21-2018, 06:35 PM
The money the Jazz are throwing out to players no one else wants is just mind boggling. Ingles at 12 MILLION. Rubio at 15 MILLION. Alec Burks at 12 MILLION. Exum at 11 MILLION.

Yeah, there's a salary floor, and that's the only reason I can see for players of this calibre getting the money they're getting.

dhopisthename
07-22-2018, 02:33 AM
The money the Jazz are throwing out to players no one else wants is just mind boggling. Ingles at 12 MILLION. Rubio at 15 MILLION. Alec Burks at 12 MILLION. Exum at 11 MILLION.

Yeah, there's a salary floor, and that's the only reason I can see for players of this calibre getting the money they're getting.

if you think Ingles at 12 mill is bad then you just don't watch any Jazz basketball. Rubio is worth about 15 million. Alec Burks is worth no where near 12 million, but he signed that deal got hurt and has never been the same. Yes they Jazz probably could have signed Exum for 5 mill this year on a one year deal and then dealt with it again next year, but lets say he averaged 15 ppg in 30 minutes and plays great defense. Suddenly he is getting 15 mill a year and the Jazz are paying more next year when they have cap space. This is a bet that he turns into a 15 a year mill guy and they are getting him at 9.6 mill.

JAZZNC
07-22-2018, 05:51 PM
The money the Jazz are throwing out to players no one else wants is just mind boggling. Ingles at 12 MILLION. Rubio at 15 MILLION. Alec Burks at 12 MILLION. Exum at 11 MILLION.

Yeah, there's a salary floor, and that's the only reason I can see for players of this calibre getting the money they're getting.
Dude, if you think nobody would want Joe Ingles you are just clueless and have never watched him play. He can pass, defend, and is a phenomenal shooter. He's the kind of player literally every team wants but whatever.

Scoots
07-22-2018, 08:23 PM
Dude, if you think nobody would want Joe Ingles you are just clueless and have never watched him play. He can pass, defend, and is a phenomenal shooter. He's the kind of player literally every team wants but whatever.

The Warriors would offer him $12M even though it will cost them 4 times that a year :)

steamroller
07-22-2018, 10:28 PM
Dude, if you think nobody would want Joe Ingles you are just clueless and have never watched him play. He can pass, defend, and is a phenomenal shooter. He's the kind of player literally every team wants but whatever.

Calm down. He entered the NBA at 27. It's not like every team in the league was beating down the doors trying to sign him.

He's averaged FIVE points a game in his first THREE seasons. What is that worth? Now that he's been allowed a huge role with the loss of Hayward, he's done a fine job. But he's still only averaging 11 ppg and 5 rpg as a 6'8" forward. It's not like he can consistently create his own shot.

He's a terrific role player on a team that is desperate for scoring and he's providing SOME scoring.

As I said before, the Jazz are loyal to their players and of course, they have to meet the salary floor. They have had a **** ton of cap space and decided to show some loyalty to their hardworking but average players getting above average results.

Quin Snyder is a top 5 coach in the nba. That dude is a beast. He's getting the absolute max potential out of a squad that is lacking in scoring, lacking in exceptional athletes, and lacking in individual talent. This one's on Snyder.

But no, Ingles is an average player thrust into a situation that is absolutely perfect for him (a team with no scoring, no outside shooting).

Even Rubio has had to take on a relatively big role as a scorer, that's how bad this team is on the offensive end.

steamroller
07-22-2018, 10:51 PM
if you think Ingles at 12 mill is bad then you just don't watch any Jazz basketball. Rubio is worth about 15 million. Alec Burks is worth no where near 12 million, but he signed that deal got hurt and has never been the same. Yes they Jazz probably could have signed Exum for 5 mill this year on a one year deal and then dealt with it again next year, but lets say he averaged 15 ppg in 30 minutes and plays great defense. Suddenly he is getting 15 mill a year and the Jazz are paying more next year when they have cap space. This is a bet that he turns into a 15 a year mill guy and they are getting him at 9.6 mill.

EVERYONE on the jazz is overpaid. Except their rookie. The NBA has a 104 million cap, a 100 million salary floor and the Jazz have no stars. That means everyone gets overpaid.

Draymond and Klay are earning $16 mil a year. Draymond is a top 3 DPOY candidate each year and Klay is the game's best shooter, averaging twice as many points as Ingles, and Klay is the THIRD option.

What did Rubio do to earn his contract? He led the Wolves to 40 wins. OK, that's not much to brag about. That's with 3 elite scorers on his team.

Burks and Exum are garbage. Obvious overpays. Rubio and Ingles are good role players.

As I said before, Snyder is a legit top 5 coach in the nba. I'm not sure what coach I'd take over him if I had a HC spot. Maybe Brad Stevens. Maybe Kerr. Snyder is a top 3 HC in the NBA. To take this roster to 50 wins is pretty close to unbelievable.

steamroller
07-22-2018, 10:54 PM
btw, good to see some feisty Jazz fans on this forum. The jazz are a great organization and it's fun to see them succeed without all NBA caliber players.

For whatever reason, I can't hate Grayson as an NBA player. He's going to be extremely fun to watch this season. :-)