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View Full Version : Time to balance power between Players vs. Teams?



Heediot
07-02-2018, 09:47 AM
There is too much leverage for players with the current cba.

Right now all these players want to have their cake and eat it too (money and destination). Holding teams hostage and strong arming to get their way.

If there was no max contracts, I think players teaming up would be a tonne harder. Trades would be more difficult to manufacture to appease the player if guys are taking up a bigger chunk of the percentage of the cap.

Should things change or remain status quo?

warfelg
07-02-2018, 09:51 AM
Things should change. But it's been that way for a while.

Heediot
07-02-2018, 09:54 AM
Things should change. But it's been that way for a while.

I think the trend has become more alarming recently, after Miami made the blue print on how to use to the cap and consolidate max contacts into a super team, it has gotten worse annually.

TakeYourL
07-02-2018, 09:55 AM
Bron changed things, and it's just the way it is now, nothing can stop it.

Players and agents know they have the power now. The only thing GMs can really do now is put their teams in a good position, the players and agents take it from there,

NBA is a different sport because a roster change or 2 can dramatically change the landscape of the NBA. You'll never be able to stop players/agents from scheming to make these moves happen.

Heediot
07-02-2018, 09:59 AM
Bron changed things, and it's just the way it is now, nothing can stop it.

Players and agents know they have the power now. The only thing GMs can really do now is put their teams in a good position, the players and agents take it from there,

NBA is a different sport because a roster change or 2 can dramatically change the landscape of the NBA. You'll never be able to stop players/agents from scheming to make these moves happen.

Back in the 90's, there were disgruntled players but it was harder for players and agents to manipulate their ways. If GS had to pay KD 50 and Curry 50 don't you think the dynamics change? If there were no Max contracts, you think LeBron, Wade and Bosh could create that super team?

warfelg
07-02-2018, 10:01 AM
I think the trend has become more alarming recently, after Miami made the blue print on how to use to the cap and consolidate max contacts into a super team, it has gotten worse annually.

I do agree.

HandsOnTheWheel
07-02-2018, 10:03 AM
Last CBA clearly gave a lot more power to the players, and it probably shouldn't have happened in the interest of preventing super teams.

Since the damage is already done though, they should probably leave it as-is and just let teams try to assemble the best super team they can. Unless they set a hard cap (which probably won't happen because that means the players making a lot less than they are currently making), then they should remain status quo and just let it happen. It is what it is.

Vinylman
07-02-2018, 10:06 AM
Honestly... if the tv money hadn't exploded the owners would care more but you have teams that can now tank for 3-4 years and still make money. That was never the case prior to this CBA/TV explosion.

Just think of the LT haul coming teams way next year... it could double some teams bottom lines.

Jamiecballer
07-02-2018, 10:10 AM
yeah the system is really broke atm. I'm not sure how you fix it. it is now more fun to gossip about the league than it is to follow it IMO

Sent from my SM-A520W using Tapatalk

TakeYourL
07-02-2018, 10:12 AM
Honestly... if the tv money hadn't exploded the owners would care more but you have teams that can now tank for 3-4 years and still make money. That was never the case prior to this CBA/TV explosion.

Just think of the LT haul coming teams way next year... it could double some teams bottom lines.

This is also a massive part of it.

Knicks tanked once KP got injured and still only got the 9 th draft spot, that shows just how hard you have to tank to get a top pick.

If you want/need a high draft pick, your tank game has to be immaculate.

Vinylman
07-02-2018, 10:14 AM
yeah the system is really broke atm. I'm not sure how you fix it. it is now more fun to gossip about the league than it is to follow it IMO

Sent from my SM-A520W using Tapatalk

smart man

crewfan13
07-02-2018, 10:18 AM
The whole nba “cap” is broken and easy to manipulate. Let’s say this year, the lakers are able to pull off trades for kawhi and say Kemba Walker, which I don’t think is out of the question. Both of those guys are expiring, but since they were traded, LA would maintain their bird rights. So when’s they both “come off the books” LA could very easily still have room for a max deal to go with Lebron, then resign kawhi and Kemba to huge deals with bird rights. They’d be way above the tax, but in 2 years they could easily build team to rival GS that way.

Kevj77
07-02-2018, 10:22 AM
NBA is a different sport because a roster change or 2 can dramatically change the landscape of the NBA. You'll never be able to stop players/agents from scheming to make these moves happen.That's why it will stay the way it is. Baseball has a 25 man roster and farm systems. A batting order has 9 people so your best hitter might only get 4-5 at bats a game their best defender can only make a play if the ball is hit to him. Your best pitcher only starts one out of 5 games. The NFL has 53 man rosters and a harder salary cap without max contracts. 22 starters 11 on each side of the ball plus rotational players.

In the NBA a player like Lebron can dominate the entire offense and play D for 40-42 minutes in a 5 on 5 situation and attract players to come play with him for a chance at a title. You can change the system, but you can't change the impact a single super star player can have on a NBA roster.

warfelg
07-02-2018, 10:24 AM
yeah the system is really broke atm. I'm not sure how you fix it. it is now more fun to gossip about the league than it is to follow it IMO

Sent from my SM-A520W using Tapatalk

Yup yup yup.


This is also a massive part of it.

Knicks tanked once KP got injured and still only got the 9 th draft spot, that shows just how hard you have to tank to get a top pick.

If you want/need a high draft pick, your tank game has to be immaculate.

The issue here is everyone talks about the cap and draft reform as if they are two individual things. They aren't. They are directly tied. And on top of that the fan issue is the fans of the HAVES call it an issue with the draft, the fans of the HAVE NOTS stay its an issue at the top, and really it's an issue of the middle.

You need draft reform ALONG with cap reform.

But again with that, in the eyes of fans their formula is right, no one elses will work, and you can't even get agreement there.

Like take what my proposition would be:
Tiered lottery odds every 5 spots that includes the bottom few teams in the playoffs. Now even playoff teams at the bottom have a slim chance to get out of purgatory. Do away with max contracts. Create a cap+1 system, where you can pay 1 player whatever you want and they are excluded from the cap, only allowed to exclude 1 player at a time, and everyone else must fit under the cap. Do away with so many exemptions, and get down to the bird rights, early bird rights, MLE, TPE. Narrow the gap between the soft cap and luxury tax. Up the tax penalties.

warfelg
07-02-2018, 10:26 AM
The whole nba “cap” is broken and easy to manipulate. Let’s say this year, the lakers are able to pull off trades for kawhi and say Kemba Walker, which I don’t think is out of the question. Both of those guys are expiring, but since they were traded, LA would maintain their bird rights. So when’s they both “come off the books” LA could very easily still have room for a max deal to go with Lebron, then resign kawhi and Kemba to huge deals with bird rights. They’d be way above the tax, but in 2 years they could easily build team to rival GS that way.

Agreed. There's too many loop holes, exemptions, and allowances.

JWO35
07-02-2018, 10:29 AM
What's wrong with players wanting their cake and eating it too? If teams can trade you at any moment for any reason they seem fit I have zero issue with "these players" deciding where they want to play as a result.

warfelg
07-02-2018, 10:41 AM
What's wrong with players wanting their cake and eating it too? If teams can trade you at any moment for any reason they seem fit I have zero issue with "these players" deciding where they want to play as a result.

Let me paint you a picture:

In 2020, 4 of the top 5 players and 6 of the top 10 are consolidated on 2 teams. The 4 seed in the east just finished with a 44-38 season. 10 of 15 teams in the east are under .500. 5 of them are capped out, or have no room for a max contract just trying to reach the floor. 2 of those 5 can't get a top 10 pick to improve. Meanwhile, 4 teams out west land in the lotto are over .500. One of those teams win the lotto, have cap space to bring in more help.

That's good for the NBA to basically have the death of an entire conference?

Yes the west is stronger and its a nice place, but most the media market (what pays for the NBA to operate) comes from the east coast. The slow death of the east could mean a smaller TV contract next time around.

Hawkeye15
07-02-2018, 10:46 AM
Honestly... if the tv money hadn't exploded the owners would care more but you have teams that can now tank for 3-4 years and still make money. That was never the case prior to this CBA/TV explosion.

Just think of the LT haul coming teams way next year... it could double some teams bottom lines.

this. People need to remember, yes, its a sport. But its business first. Many owners won't care about competitive balance or getting control back in their front office with their revenues skyrocketing like they have/will.

Jeffy25
07-02-2018, 10:46 AM
#getridofthesalarycap

Hawkeye15
07-02-2018, 10:46 AM
Let me paint you a picture:

In 2020, 4 of the top 5 players and 6 of the top 10 are consolidated on 2 teams. The 4 seed in the east just finished with a 44-38 season. 10 of 15 teams in the east are under .500. 5 of them are capped out, or have no room for a max contract just trying to reach the floor. 2 of those 5 can't get a top 10 pick to improve. Meanwhile, 4 teams out west land in the lotto are over .500. One of those teams win the lotto, have cap space to bring in more help.

That's good for the NBA to basically have the death of an entire conference?

Yes the west is stronger and its a nice place, but most the media market (what pays for the NBA to operate) comes from the east coast. The slow death of the east could mean a smaller TV contract next time around.

your team and Boston will now destroy the east though...so at least you have that going for ya

warfelg
07-02-2018, 10:48 AM
your team and Boston will now destroy the east though...so at least you have that going for ya

Touche, but overall it's not in the best long term health for the NBA.

Hawkeye15
07-02-2018, 10:51 AM
Touche, but overall it's not in the best long term health for the NBA.

no not at all. I know a big part of me not watching has to do with having a 15 month old, and my team just isn't stylistically what I like, but the NBA season is a formality at this point, so its annoying. But, viewership and revenue are up, so I doubt changes are coming.

TakeYourL
07-02-2018, 10:53 AM
Truth is NBA needs less teams. A lot of these small markets shouldn't even exist, just the NBA being greedy, that would at least consolidate the talent more.

But no doubt something needs to change, half the teams in the NBA are unwatchable.

warfelg
07-02-2018, 10:53 AM
no not at all. I know a big part of me not watching has to do with having a 15 month old, and my team just isn't stylistically what I like, but the NBA season is a formality at this point, so its annoying. But, viewership and revenue are up, so I doubt changes are coming.

They're up on a bubble. This is like the same thing that happened to the MLB in the home run race.

It would be better for the NBA if viewership and revenue were up, but not just for the league, but evenly among the teams. Even if one or two dipped. I bet if you looked at all of this team by team you would see a spike of about 5-6 teams, 10 even, the remainder down.

Scoots
07-02-2018, 11:47 AM
It would be nice for the cap and draft to be simple, unfortunately that's not the way organization rules tend to work. Things are added and added and added and seldom taken away in bulk. I doubt the sweeping changes we'd like are possible politically.

mgjohnson7851
07-02-2018, 11:50 AM
I've said something needs to change ever since Melo left Denver. The previous poster who said the NBA needs fewer teams is correct. There's too many small market teams, and the business model of the NBA does little to cater to the small markets.

As a fan of a small market team, it's incredibly hard to get really excited about the NBA. With the Broncos, you know that there NFL is set up for parity and with smart leadership, they'll have a chance to compete for a championship now and then... Same with the Avs. But the Nuggets? Even though they have a really promising young core right now, I know they will never win a championship. Never. Because the league is set up for large markets and small market players go off to form these super teams.

I think the NBA could eventually overtake the NFL as the most popular sport in the country, but it never will as long as they continue to cater to the large teams. What reason is there for a Charlotte fan to invest emotionally or financially into the NBA? Portland? Denver? Minnesota? Phoenix? Memphis?

Either cut half the teams or go into the next CBA negotiations with the mindset to create parity. It's not good for the NBA that the Warriors steam roll their way to a championship every year, it's not good for the NBA that one entire conference if basically devoid of talent, and it's not good for the NBA that the REAL championship series is now the Western Conference Finals.

warfelg
07-02-2018, 11:50 AM
Actually that's pretty much exactly the way organizational change happens.

warfelg
07-02-2018, 11:58 AM
I've said something needs to change ever since Melo left Denver. The previous poster who said the NBA needs fewer teams is correct. There's too many small market teams, and the business model of the NBA does little to cater to the small markets.

As a fan of a small market team, it's incredibly hard to get really excited about the NBA. With the Broncos, you know that there NFL is set up for parity and with smart leadership, they'll have a chance to compete for a championship now and then... Same with the Avs. But the Nuggets? Even though they have a really promising young core right now, I know they will never win a championship. Never. Because the league is set up for large markets and small market players go off to form these super teams.

I think the NBA could eventually overtake the NFL as the most popular sport in the country, but it never will as long as they continue to cater to the large teams. What reason is there for a Charlotte fan to invest emotionally or financially into the NBA? Portland? Denver? Minnesota? Phoenix? Memphis?

Either cut half the teams or go into the next CBA negotiations with the mindset to create parity. It's not good for the NBA that the Warriors steam roll their way to a championship every year, it's not good for the NBA that one entire conference if basically devoid of talent, and it's not good for the NBA that the REAL championship series is now the Western Conference Finals.

I don't even think you need to create parity. What you need to create is star distribution.

Heediot
07-02-2018, 12:15 PM
What's wrong with players wanting their cake and eating it too? If teams can trade you at any moment for any reason they seem fit I have zero issue with "these players" deciding where they want to play as a result.

Nothing is wrong with wanting your cake and eating it. But there's also nothing wrong with allowing teams better conditions to make transaction without losing leverage due to the player controlling where he wants to go and minimizing the teams leverage. I prefer balance of power.

Heediot
07-02-2018, 12:17 PM
Yeah the league makes too much money so the status quo is going to remain. Theoretically and intuitively, it doesn't sit right with me. In no other league do players dictate the terms as much as the NBA.

crewfan13
07-02-2018, 12:23 PM
I guess I don’t agree with the contraction argument. If the best players didn’t consolidate on a small handful of teams, I think there’s a enough amount of talent in the league to make it work.

The top few players in the league would still lead the way, but that’s not much different from say the nfl. Guys like Rodgers and Brady are almost always near the top of the league if they’re healthy. So guys like Lebron and Durant would still be the favorites, but without max deals and general league parity, they wouldn’t have as much dominance.

Like others have said, removing max deals goes a long ways in fixing the problem, especially if you put some sort of maximum spending limit in place without the million exceptions.

ewing
07-02-2018, 12:24 PM
What's wrong with players wanting their cake and eating it too? If teams can trade you at any moment for any reason they seem fit I have zero issue with "these players" deciding where they want to play as a result.

often a lot. The Spurs paid KL a lot of money and made long term investments assuming that if they treated him right and made good organizational decisions he would hopefully stay. Instead he left the team, collected his check, and is trying to force them them to trade him from a position of weakness.

Scoots
07-02-2018, 12:37 PM
I don't even think you need to create parity. What you need to create is star distribution.

How do you distribute stars though? Some come in mostly known (LeBron) but others develop to become stars way beyond what was thought possible when they came in the NBA. Curry, Thompson, and Green have all wildly outperformed expectations at the draft. The teams will never go for rules changes that eliminate the chances of a team keeping the players they developed into stars.

I understand making it very hard for a second star to come to a team, but even without max contracts it can happen. If LeBron and Kawhi join the Sixers/Celtics and they have 10 first round picks from other bad teams over the next few years should those picks be taken away to keep them from being too good?

The reality is that well run teams get more players who make all-star and win more games overall. Well run teams draft players that fit or that have potential unseen by others and then those teams develop those players. I think some people think the situation a player is in has no bearing on how they perform, and that's just too simple a view for the vast majority of NBA players.

As an aside, the idea that super teams are "bad for the NBA" isn't borne out by the numbers.

Scoots
07-02-2018, 12:41 PM
From the players perspective ... there are maybe 5-10 players who are worth non-max huge deals, the rest of the players will suffer as every one of those dollars goes out of the pool all the other players are paid from. The players union LOVES max contracts even though the vocal "leaders" of the players don't.

mngopher35
07-02-2018, 12:43 PM
Make it just a hard cap and no max contracts. It won't happen but I think there are obvious changes that would drastically help parity if they wanted

HandsOnTheWheel
07-02-2018, 12:46 PM
Problem is that contracts are already bloated. Players won't accept to start making less with hard cap as crazy money has already set in. Remove the max contract though with luxury tax rules in place and super teams start disappearing

warfelg
07-02-2018, 12:48 PM
How do you distribute stars though?

Structure the cap and CBA in a way that it limits the path to more than 2 stars on a team.


The reality is that well run teams get more players who make all-star and win more games overall.

And that's true in the NFL as well, yet (save the Browns) each of the 31 teams (again outside the Browns) has had a reasonable argument in the past 10-15 years as to why they could be Super Bowl Champions.

Yes the well run teams will always be near the top (Patriots, Steelers, Eagles, Packers). But star distribution has allowed those other teams to jump into that and disrupt the status quo.

You jump to "well run teams will still be good" so quickly as if it's a deterrent to CBA/Draft reform. When in fact that's a reason for CBA/Draft reform. If your team is that well run you shouldn't fear change like this.

crewfan13
07-02-2018, 12:49 PM
often a lot. The Spurs paid KL a lot of money and made long term investments assuming that if they treated him right and made good organizational decisions he would hopefully stay. Instead he left the team, collected his check, and is trying to force them them to trade him from a position of weakness.

But that’s parislly a max contract issue though. And who knows if SA offered the super max or not, but having max contracts makes players decisions often times not about the money, but about other factors. That leads to an inflation of importance of factors like location (both weather and media market size) and ability to win now compared to other sports.

Bryce Harper and manny machado are set to become two of the most sought after free agents in a long time in the mlb. A huge chunk of their decision will come down to money. Sure, they’ll both still factor in location, marketability and all of that, but if an unfavorable market with a losing record blows everyone else out of the water with a financial offer, I bet they think long and hard about that offer. That’s not the case in the nba. If kawhi plays out the season with SA and becomes a FA, every teams offer will likely be almost identical outside of SA. The financial side of the equation is taken out. If LA could offer him $30 mill per year, but say a team like Phoenix or Memphis could offer him $40 mill per year, it likely gives those teams who we deem as less favorable for market and winning in kawhis mind much more of a fighters chance.

At the end of the day, I don’t think anyone thinks the players shouldn’t be able to choose their locations. I think to most people, it’s the fact that max contracts will always make the favorable locations (good weather, strong media markets) and teams with championship rosters more favorable spots for top tier free agents since money isn’t a factor.

Heediot
07-02-2018, 01:40 PM
My beef is more about how much power and manipulation the players have vs. the cba itself, but to change that the cba must change, so there's that. Sick and tired of these guy changing their tune when something goes bad, or they face some kind of adversity.

mgjohnson7851
07-02-2018, 10:00 PM
And now with Boogie in GSW, the NBA is unwatchable. Silver has got to fix this ASAP.

Raps08-09 Champ
07-02-2018, 10:12 PM
This is an easy fix.

Hard cap and no max contracts.

Lets see players team up when teams are waiving 80 mil per year contracts.

Its easy for a guy like durant to take 30 mil instead of 35 to give some money to Dray and Klay but id like to see how low each giy goes when they are offered 70 mil each but need to take like 35 to fit withon a 140 mil hardcap

AllBall
07-02-2018, 11:53 PM
This is an easy fix.

Hard cap and no max contracts.

Lets see players team up when teams are waiving 80 mil per year contracts.

Its easy for a guy like durant to take 30 mil instead of 35 to give some money to Dray and Klay but id like to see how low each giy goes when they are offered 70 mil each but need to take like 35 to fit withon a 140 mil hardcap

The thing is that owners will shoot themselves in the foot. The cap rules was always about keeping owners from being stupid and limiting their freedoms more than about limiting the players and their freedoms. An owner would probably give 1 player 98% of his money and just leave 2% for the rest and then end up as the bottom seed.

Raps08-09 Champ
07-03-2018, 01:19 AM
The thing is that owners will shoot themselves in the foot. The cap rules was always about keeping owners from being stupid and limiting their freedoms more than about limiting the players and their freedoms. An owner would probably give 1 player 98% of his money and just leave 2% for the rest and then end up as the bottom seed.

The intention of giving them that freedom is that they have to deal with their decisions.

AllBall
07-03-2018, 01:22 AM
The intention of giving them that freedom is that they have to deal with their decisions.

Yep, but the fans end up paying for it and you're back in the same boat. With a crap team that can't compete and handcuff by a moron owner.

Raps08-09 Champ
07-03-2018, 01:33 AM
Yep, but the fans end up paying for it and you're back in the same boat. With a crap team that can't compete and handcuff by a moron owner.

Yes but the intention is to give the teams more power, which is the goal here.

Every team is now a live dog to get star players. All they have to do is pay the price. They may have to overpay but they now have that chance and it increases the chance of star players being distributed among all the teams.

It actually doesn't take away the powers from the stars either as they still have the ability to choose whichever team they want at whatever discount they way. You are just making it harder for them to take that discount when you give them an offer they can't refuse.

I can guarantee you that Durant would have a much harder time rejecting a $70 mil offer from say the Nets compared to the $30 million he took with the Warriors (which would probably be the most he can take while taking into consideration Curry/Klay/Dray in a $140 mil hardcap).

Wrigheyes4MVP
07-03-2018, 03:23 PM
Two words: Hard Cap

Chronz
07-03-2018, 04:20 PM
Two words: Hard Cap

No cap