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View Full Version : NBA All-Time Redraft Championship! (Red Ribbon Army v Seaside Seagulls)



valade16
06-21-2018, 09:39 AM
Every year Members of PSD participate in a draft of all players all-time in an attempt to make the best team possible and win in a playoff determined by fellow members of PSD.

This years rules included being able to only start 2 players from the 00's and 1 from the 70's and earlier.

This is the Championship Match!

Look over the two teams and vote on which team you think would win in a 7 game series. The top team has home-court advantage for this series.

Red Ribbon Army - Homecourt Advantage

C: Hakeem Olajuwon (80-99) / Andrew Bogut (00-18)
PF: Willis Reed (60-79) / Jamaal Wilkes (60-79)
SF: Andre Igoudala (00-18) / Gordon Hayward (00-18)
SG: Manu Ginobili (00-18) / Marques Johnson (80-99)
PG: Isiah Thomas(80-99) / Danny Ainge (80-99)

v

Seaside Seagulls

PG: Steph Curry 38 | Norm Van Lier 10
SG: Clyde Drexler 38 | Steve Smith 10
SF: Billy Cunningham 24 | Mark Aguirre 24
PF: Karl Malone 38 | Billy Cunningham 6 | Antawn Jamison 4
C: Tyson Chandler 36 | LaMarcus Aldridge 12

Dunkapolooza
06-21-2018, 03:42 PM
I must be one of the few GMs here who don't think much of Ginobili and Iguodala. Honestly that's one of the worst wing groups of all the teams.

Lakers + Giants
06-21-2018, 07:38 PM
I must be one of the few GMs here who don't think much of Ginobili and Iguodala. Honestly that's one of the worst wing groups of all the teams.

WHAT?!

Manu actually compares nicely to drexler:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=1&player_id1_hint=Clyde+Drexler&player_id1_select=Clyde+Drexler&player_id1=drexlcl01&player_id2_hint=Manu+Ginobili&player_id2_select=Manu+Ginobili&player_id2=ginobma01&idx=players

PER 36 are similar
Advanced are similar
Playoffs Manu is better.

Hakeem also has the HUGEST position advantage in this series. Tyson Chandler guarding him?! Really? Lamarcus Aldridge as the backup? Who's supposed to stop or even slow down Hakeem? The best player in this series has the biggest mismatch on BOTH ends. He's gonna feast offensively while being able to rest on Chandler defensively.

KnicksorBust
06-21-2018, 09:47 PM
Both deserving teams. Seaside had my favorite trio with Curry-Drexler-Mailman trio and red ribbon has the most solid 5 with no real holes.

Quinnsanity
06-22-2018, 12:46 PM
Went with Seaside but I was never really excited about any of this year's teams.

Dunkapolooza
06-22-2018, 03:17 PM
Went with Seaside but I was never really excited about any of this year's teams.

I think we'll look back on Harden / Wilt better and better. Especially when built like a modern team; surrounded by three point shooters and defenders.

AntiG
06-22-2018, 03:39 PM
WHAT?!

Manu actually compares nicely to drexler:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=1&player_id1_hint=Clyde+Drexler&player_id1_select=Clyde+Drexler&player_id1=drexlcl01&player_id2_hint=Manu+Ginobili&player_id2_select=Manu+Ginobili&player_id2=ginobma01&idx=players

PER 36 are similar
Advanced are similar
Playoffs Manu is better.


Drexler in his prime was unstoppable. He was the 2nd best player in the entire league at that time. The stats may show that they were close but the reality was prime Drexler was on the same level as prime Kobe and prime Jordan.

Quinnsanity
06-22-2018, 03:42 PM
I think we'll look back on Harden / Wilt better and better. Especially when built like a modern team; surrounded by three point shooters and defenders.

That team was a time bomb.

Lakers + Giants
06-22-2018, 03:57 PM
Seriously tho, how is seaside going to even slow down Hakeem?

Iggy is going to be guarding drexler, meaning Clyde will struggle to get his. Meanwhile, Hakeem is free to do as he pleases on BOTH ends.

valade16
06-22-2018, 04:12 PM
Seriously tho, how is seaside going to even slow down Hakeem?

Iggy is going to be guarding drexler, meaning Clyde will struggle to get his. Meanwhile, Hakeem is free to do as he pleases on BOTH ends.

I have a DPOY guarding Hakeem. I’d take Tyson guarding Hakeem over IT guarding Curry.

Lakers + Giants
06-22-2018, 06:19 PM
I have a DPOY guarding Hakeem. I’d take Tyson guarding Hakeem over IT guarding Curry.

DPOY against the weakest era of centers ever... never went up against someone even remotely close to Hakeem.

Curry would struggle to guard IT too tho. It'd be like how he couldn't even stay in front of Kyrie...

Hakeem doesn't even have to worry about chandler on the other end.

Lucky.
06-22-2018, 07:50 PM
Think I originally had LG 3rd in my rankings but in hindsight I believe he has the best team. I think Seasides front court will be crowded and in a game where Hakeem can focus primarily on help defense, that’s a big issue.

It’s unfortunate, because I really thought LG would have won this. Feel his team is at the very least as good as Seaside, and also matches up well. But congrats to both teams.

Raps18-19 Champ
06-22-2018, 10:10 PM
Went with Seaside but I was never really excited about any of this year's teams.

My team man.

Quinnsanity
06-23-2018, 12:34 AM
DPOY against the weakest era of centers ever... never went up against someone even remotely close to Hakeem.

Curry would struggle to guard IT too tho. It'd be like how he couldn't even stay in front of Kyrie...

Hakeem doesn't even have to worry about chandler on the other end.

I hate this logic on so many levels. If Chandler can't slow down Hakeem, you're basically making it seem like there only a few centers in NBA history who could. That's nonsense. We go down this road every year with Shaq, where whoever has him treats him like he is 100% unguardable and would go off for 60 every game. That's not how this works. Chandler is a very good defensive center. He'll do well against Hakeem. He won't shut him down because nobody can. But to treat it like Hakeem would automatically dominate every game because someone besides like Tim Duncan is on him is just sort of ridiculous to me. It almost makes me wonder if you'd be better off intentionally putting bad defenders on these guys. Like start Brad Miller at center. If Shaq and Hakeem are going to get credit for dominating Chandler, it's not like there's that much more they could do on Miller, but you'd torture them on defense by keeping them out on the perimeter.

Also, yes, Hakeem would have to worry about Chandler on offense. Alley-oops are easy points. Chandler is rather good at finishing them.

GREATNESS ONE
06-23-2018, 12:54 AM
Quitsannity.

GREATNESS ONE
06-23-2018, 12:56 AM
Here come the "click votes" waiting on Dhop + lol well, let's make this match more even

lakerfan85
06-23-2018, 01:19 AM
I hate this logic on so many levels. If Chandler can't slow down Hakeem, you're basically making it seem like there only a few centers in NBA history who could. That's nonsense. We go down this road every year with Shaq, where whoever has him treats him like he is 100% unguardable and would go off for 60 every game. That's not how this works. Chandler is a very good defensive center. He'll do well against Hakeem. He won't shut him down because nobody can. But to treat it like Hakeem would automatically dominate every game because someone besides like Tim Duncan is on him is just sort of ridiculous to me. It almost makes me wonder if you'd be better off intentionally putting bad defenders on these guys. Like start Brad Miller at center. If Shaq and Hakeem are going to get credit for dominating Chandler, it's not like there's that much more they could do on Miller, but you'd torture them on defense by keeping them out on the perimeter.

Also, yes, Hakeem would have to worry about Chandler on offense. Alley-oops are easy points. Chandler is rather good at finishing them.

You seem bitter...

Lakers + Giants
06-23-2018, 01:34 AM
I hate this logic on so many levels. If Chandler can't slow down Hakeem, you're basically making it seem like there only a few centers in NBA history who could. That's nonsense. We go down this road every year with Shaq, where whoever has him treats him like he is 100% unguardable and would go off for 60 every game. That's not how this works. Chandler is a very good defensive center. He'll do well against Hakeem. He won't shut him down because nobody can. But to treat it like Hakeem would automatically dominate every game because someone besides like Tim Duncan is on him is just sort of ridiculous to me. It almost makes me wonder if you'd be better off intentionally putting bad defenders on these guys. Like start Brad Miller at center. If Shaq and Hakeem are going to get credit for dominating Chandler, it's not like there's that much more they could do on Miller, but you'd torture them on defense by keeping them out on the perimeter.

Also, yes, Hakeem would have to worry about Chandler on offense. Alley-oops are easy points. Chandler is rather good at finishing them.

I also have a player that I proved performed just as well as clyde yet someone earlier posted he's not even in the same level as clyde, yet the numbers prove manu is....

Also was told IT couldn't guard Curry which I can just as easily say Curry can't guard IT.

Kyrie Irving was able to average 29pts in the 2017 finals and 27 pts in the 2016 finals... IT will get his.

You can't just call out my claims as being exaggerations but ignore the ones used against me...

Additionally, I have Iggy on Clyde, another elite defender that got a FMVP for limiting Lebron. If he could guard lebron like he did, i love my chances vs Clyde, who couldn't shoot from three. If he's taking jumpers against iggy I love that. Attacking the paint against Hakeem and Reed? love that even more.

Out of all the star players in the series, Hakeem has the biggest advantage, and it's enormous compared to the rest.

Lakers + Giants
06-23-2018, 01:49 AM
I also want to add, this is a FINALS matchup. My team was built for this specific moment. The same moment where Malone CRUMBLED. the same moment where HAKEEM carried clyde. The same moment were Iggy will play the same role and will limit the opposing wing. The same moment where IT won finals MVP vs another sharpshooter in Terry Porter, and DOMINATED him. The same moment where Willis Reed excelled as well two separate times.

Simply put, there are players that perform better in the finals, and others that can't handle the pressure as well. My entire team was able to perform even better when it mattered most. The same situation we're in right now, the Finals. That has to count for something, you can't just ignore that experience.

valade16
06-23-2018, 10:48 AM
I also want to add, this is a FINALS matchup. My team was built for this specific moment. The same moment where Malone CRUMBLED. the same moment where HAKEEM carried clyde. The same moment were Iggy will play the same role and will limit the opposing wing. The same moment where IT won finals MVP vs another sharpshooter in Terry Porter, and DOMINATED him. The same moment where Willis Reed excelled as well two separate times.

Simply put, there are players that perform better in the finals, and others that can't handle the pressure as well. My entire team was able to perform even better when it mattered most. The same situation we're in right now, the Finals. That has to count for something, you can't just ignore that experience.

Yes your players performed well in the finals, but it’s easier to do that when you’re on a stacked team. All of your players were on stacked teams. IT’s Pistons, Iggy’s Dubs, Reeds Knicks, when in the Finals were they ever not clearly the better team on the floor?

Malone and Drexler carrued teams to the Finals and if not for MJ they’d have 3 rings to their names. Now they’re the ones on the stacked team. Not to mention Hakeem didn’t carry Clyde to his ring, without Clyde Hakeem never gets ring #2. In fact Clyde scored 29 and 31 pts in the final game of both the 1st and 2nd rounds. He was incredibly clutch for them that year. His playoff WS/48 and BPM were actually both higher than Hakeem’s that postseason.

lakerfan85
06-23-2018, 12:41 PM
Yes your players performed well in the finals, but it’s easier to do that when you’re on a stacked team. All of your players were on stacked teams. IT’s Pistons, Iggy’s Dubs, Reeds Knicks, when in the Finals were they ever not clearly the better team on the floor?

Malone and Drexler carrued teams to the Finals and if not for MJ they’d have 3 rings to their names. Now they’re the ones on the stacked team. Not to mention Hakeem didn’t carry Clyde to his ring, without Clyde Hakeem never gets ring #2. In fact Clyde scored 29 and 31 pts in the final game of both the 1st and 2nd rounds. He was incredibly clutch for them that year. His playoff WS/48 and BPM were actually both higher than Hakeem’s that postseason.

What are you talking about? Those Blazer teams were really good..

AntiG
06-23-2018, 09:13 PM
Yes your players performed well in the finals, but it’s easier to do that when you’re on a stacked team. All of your players were on stacked teams. IT’s Pistons, Iggy’s Dubs, Reeds Knicks, when in the Finals were they ever not clearly the better team on the floor?

Malone and Drexler carrued teams to the Finals and if not for MJ they’d have 3 rings to their names. Now they’re the ones on the stacked team. Not to mention Hakeem didn’t carry Clyde to his ring, without Clyde Hakeem never gets ring #2. In fact Clyde scored 29 and 31 pts in the final game of both the 1st and 2nd rounds. He was incredibly clutch for them that year. His playoff WS/48 and BPM were actually both higher than Hakeem’s that postseason.

Clyde is the most underrated superstar in history. The guy is a legit top 20 and has a good argument for 2nd best SG ever, but gets knocked for only winning one ring. Those Blazers teams were solid, but Clyde was the only legit star on roster full of great role players, hence why he's the only one in the HOF. When he was on the Rockets with Hakeem, they were 1A and 1B, both of them were kicking butt that whole playoff run. Keep in mind too, when faced off against Jordan and Pippen in the finals, two of the greatest defensive wings in NBA history, he was still putting up 25 PPG. I remember back in the early 90s, people were arguing over Jordan vs Drexler on who was the best player in the NBA. Later on, people were discussing whether Kobe had caught Drexler yet as the 2nd greatest SG ever.

Crazy to think that Drexler and Jordan almost became the dynamic duo had the Blazers not passed on MJ in the draft.

Dunkapolooza
06-24-2018, 01:55 AM
Yeah I don't understand how this match up is close. Ginobili? Igu? Two players in the starting line up that where at their best on the bench... What.

They are both among the least decorated players in this entire game. Most of these teams already eliminated have at least two guys who made more all star games.

Isiah Thomas never shared the ball with anyone who should get it as much as Hakeem. And if Isiah doesn't have the ball he's making everyone else on this team worse. Complete liability

Provides zero spacing, too small to guard anyone. I mean he's small to curry...

He's a massive switch liability. Clyde gets IT on him and it's automatic points. Curry is always automatic points and over all there is absolutely zero space for Hakeem.

I don't understand the voters thinking here. Igu should not be starting. Period. No freaking way should he be a starter. Cunningham at least was able to lead a team when he wasn't a sixth man. Igu simply can't.

Seagulls have the best wing player here by a mile. The best guard by a big margin and an elite big man. Top three pf. Top three pg. Top five sg.

Vs a top five center? What...

And ginobili is barely a starter.

Lakers + Giants
06-24-2018, 04:12 PM
Yeah I don't understand how this match up is close. Ginobili? Igu? Two players in the starting line up that where at their best on the bench... What.

From 2004 to 2011 Giniboli in the playoffs:

59.6 TS%, 18.8 PPG, 37.7 3P% on 5 attempts per game, 6.5 FTA, 5 RPG, 4 APG, 1.5 SPG .184 WS/48 (Higher than any 3 year stretch of Clyde's playoff career). Sure he came off the bench in the regular season, but he was an all star player his whole career and was playing starter minutes in the playoffs and even starting in the playoffs.


They are both among the least decorated players in this entire game. Most of these teams already eliminated have at least two guys who made more all star games.

Tyson chandler has 1 all star game... Iggy has one and a FMVP to counter Chandler's DPOY which he won in the weakest era of centers ever!

Manu has 2 allstar appearances, more than chandler, he would easily have had more but he chose to win instead of leaving to be the man.


Isiah Thomas never shared the ball with anyone who should get it as much as Hakeem. And if Isiah doesn't have the ball he's making everyone else on this team worse. Complete liability

An elite playmaker in IT making plays for Hakeem and Reed? Iggy doesn't mind his role of guarding the opposing teams best wing, he doesn't need to score to be effective, his defense alone makes him a valuable asset. Manu? I've already gone over how he's always been willing to take a "lesser role" to win. Sign me up for this, it's exactly why my team fits perfectly.


Provides zero spacing, too small to guard anyone. I mean he's small to curry...

I can't dispute the fact that he couldn't shoot from three, but curry still would struggle to guard IT as well. Same handles as Kyrie and just 47%FG in his 5 year prime, not a liability at all on offense. Curry will struggle to guard IT too, and it's evident with how Kyrie was able to get his own as well vs curry in the finals. Averaging 29 ppg and 27 ppg in back to back finals. Lets not act like curry is a good defender himself. Hell, I even want to point out that in the playoffs IT shot 34.6% from 3P in his career, while Clyde shot 28.8% from three in his playoff career. Clyde's the one to worry about with iggy hounding him all game.


He's a massive switch liability. Clyde gets IT on him and it's automatic points. Curry is always automatic points and over all there is absolutely zero space for Hakeem.

Zero space for Hakeem? What?! Hakeem is known as being able to play next to any C or PF, it's how versatile he was offensively. Hell, he played with 7'4 Ralph Sampson and 6'9 Otis thorpe who is the exact same height as Reed, and they both played PF/C. If anything Reed is way better than thorpe and Thorpe was able to win it all with Hakeem...


I don't understand the voters thinking here. Igu should not be starting. Period. No freaking way should he be a starter. Cunningham at least was able to lead a team when he wasn't a sixth man. Igu simply can't. [QUOTE]

Iggy's 4 year stretch as starter:

He started all 322 games. 18.5 PPG, 5.8 RPG, 5.4 APG, 1.8 SPG, 6.2 FTA... you're completely underrating Iggy. He did it ALL. That's a point away from averaging 20-6-5-2 in a 4 year stretch... that's the problem here, you're underrating the hell out of Manu and Iggy. Oh yea, and he can easily guard the opposing teams best wing.

[QUOTE]Seagulls have the best wing player here by a mile. The best guard by a big margin and an elite big man. Top three pf. Top three pg. Top five sg. Vs a top five center? What... And ginobili is barely a starter.

I've already proven how Manu compares to clyde, especially in the playoffs.

I have a top 10 SG, top 5 PG, a top 5 C, and another top 50 player in Reed..

Dunkapolooza
06-24-2018, 06:01 PM
LG what you're forgetting about Manu is that he was never the guy anywhere. He never had the best defender locked on him all game. He never guarded the best offensive player on the other end. He was simply a role player. Which if you take a great player and make them a role player their eff goes way up. If you take a great player and make them do everything their eff goes down.

So yes, Ginobili has great advanced stats. Take Clyde off the blazers and put him on those spurs teams and those spurs teams get A LOT better. He instantly becomes their number one ball handler and probably their top scorer.

Take Manu and put him on those blazers teams and those blazers teams probably barely squeak into the playoffs. Maybe even so ****** they become a lottery team. Manu cannot lead a team to the finals. Clyde took a team to the finals without a single other hall of famer on his team. Manu on the other hand needed multiple hall of famers and was a back up for most of his career lol.


Put back ups on Clyde Drexler and you'd see absolutely insane eff.


You can say iggy doesn't need to score to be effect but he needs other people to score. The only career success he ever had in his life was surrounded by two of the most efficient scorers in the history of the nba. Hakeem Reed and IT are great, but they can't score at that volume. None of those three really scored at an all time - all time level (like an Adrian Dantley, a MJ, a Bernard King, a Wilt, A Harden...). So iggy brings your overall scoring down. Plus he's not a good spacer. As a fifth option spacing the floor he's great. Meh as 4th. Terrible as a second option. He's supposed to be your second best shooter? Yeah right.


Actually Hakeem found his most success playing next to Horry <.< … hence the modern nba. Your team is designed like the 60s or 90s when scoring was ****. Yeah Hakeem can play in every era, duh, but playing in the nba today it'd be way easier for him. Without spacing you don't have a modern styled team.

Tyson is a defense player of the year. That's as good as finals mvp. So the least decorated player on Seagulls is as decorated as either of your wings... that's a **** wing group... period man.

Lucky.
06-24-2018, 06:41 PM
I feel like Manu in his prime is getting severely underrated here lol. Like we’re talking prime Manu, not Manu from the past 6 years or so.

James Harden, someone you view very highly (and rightfully so) was once looking like he was going to be the next Manu. A guy that looked like he could clearly start and be the guy but came off the bench to better his team. How’d that turn out? We’ll never know just how productive Manu would have been, but using him coming off the bench as an argument is silly in my opinion. Manu is a clear exception, and would clearly be a starter, a productive one at that.

Manu is an ideal 3rd-4th option in this game, I would say.

Iggy isn’t the greatest starter, I won’t argue that. But still, being the 5th best starter (when the other four are really good, no less) I wouldn’t say is that bad of a thing. In fact, and you can certainly disagree (I wouldn’t argue), I would say that majority of the GMs in this game would pick Iggy before Tyson or Cunningham. Right or wrong, I’m pretty sure they would.

Lucky.
06-24-2018, 06:43 PM
Also, talking about this reminds me of when Manu went off against team USA in 2004, carrying his team to a victory and eventually a gold medal. That was awesome.

Heediot
06-24-2018, 07:12 PM
Olajuwon has proven he can carry a team to a title without the greatest help. Manu is another proven big time player. These teams are all close in talent, so I'm taking guys who I think will do best in the biggest stage. Thomas, Reed and Iggy are all FMVPs too. There are 5 FMVPs (total) in the starting lineup and Manu won a Euroleague Finals MVP. I'm taking the team I think is going to handle the pressure better.

KnicksorBust
06-24-2018, 07:38 PM
I also want to add, this is a FINALS matchup. My team was built for this specific moment. The same moment where Malone CRUMBLED. the same moment where HAKEEM carried clyde. The same moment were Iggy will play the same role and will limit the opposing wing. The same moment where IT won finals MVP vs another sharpshooter in Terry Porter, and DOMINATED him. The same moment where Willis Reed excelled as well two separate times.

Simply put, there are players that perform better in the finals, and others that can't handle the pressure as well. My entire team was able to perform even better when it mattered most. The same situation we're in right now, the Finals. That has to count for something, you can't just ignore that experience.

Great post. Convincing.

Heediot
06-24-2018, 07:41 PM
Great post. Convincing.

Didn't read his post prior to posting mine, but I was thinking along the same lines. Yeah that was a great post. All these teams have talent, it comes down to who can play big first (IMO) and chemistry a close second.

GREATNESS ONE
06-24-2018, 08:35 PM
:win:

Dunkapolooza
06-24-2018, 10:51 PM
Prime Manu who never was the leading scorer on his own team? I mean seriously, is Brent Barry some kind of all time great?

Manu never was the most important player on his team. I'm not saying he sucks here guys. What team in the NBA today could prime Manu walk onto, be their best player, and lead them to a finals appearance? What team?

lakerfan85
06-24-2018, 11:09 PM
Prime Manu who never was the leading scorer on his own team? I mean seriously, is Brent Barry some kind of all time great?

Manu never was the most important player on his team. I'm not saying he sucks here guys. What team in the NBA today could prime Manu walk onto, be their best player, and lead them to a finals appearance? What team?

Why does he have to be the most important player on a team with the Dream, Reed and IT?

Lakers + Giants
06-24-2018, 11:37 PM
Why does he have to be the most important player on a team with the Dream, Reed and IT?

Exactly, He's my 4th option and he's used to that role. You can even argue he did it better than anyone else in the history of the game. 4th option yet someone who could still take over games, I do not see what' wrong with that. Even Iggy is free to play his playmaking/defense role which he excelled at too.

Same thing that's being said about Manu/Iggy I can say about Tyson Chandler. When did he lead a team to a championship, when was he the teams leading scorer, when was he even an offensive threat?! His highest per 36 three year peak he averaged 12.2 ppg.... His highest playoff per game ppg? 7.4...

Like I said, Hakeem doesn't even need to try on the defensive end..

Dunkapolooza
06-24-2018, 11:42 PM
I mean damn guys. Manu's career best game is comparable to Clyde's averages... What are we talking about here? Clyde is better with Mj on him than Manu is vs league average defense. And he didn't even face the opposing teams best defenders.

Lakers + Giants
06-24-2018, 11:53 PM
I mean damn guys. Manu's career best game is comparable to Clyde's averages... What are we talking about here? Clyde is better with Mj on him than Manu is vs league average defense. And he didn't even face the opposing teams best defenders.

Manus playoff #s are = / actually better than clyde's playoff numbers tho. Are we just supposed to ignore that because of clyde's name? If #s are being ignored then that's a whole different story. Again, I'm not arguing who's had the better career, or even who the better player is. I'm arguing that in THIS situation we are in, ALL of my players have proven to play ABOVE what they're averages suggest when playing in bigger moments.

Dunkapolooza
06-25-2018, 02:00 AM
My point is that Manu is nowhere close to Clyde lol. Who could walk on to most of the play off teams and be their best player. So no I'm not underrating Manu. He's simply not even remotely close to Clyde. Who out played LGs best player Hakeem in the play offs durring their title run.

Clyde is closer to Hakeem than Manu is close to Clyde.

Thomas curry and Iggy would get absolutely smoked. Billy Cunningham and Clyde could out score all three of them. And averaged as much as the three of them combined.

Oh yeah then there is curry... arguably the best offensive player of all time. Against a smaller ****** defender in Isiah. Curry will easily be the highest scoring player in the series given the d he's facing.

And Karl can at least match either big man. He is closer to Hakeem than Isiah is close to curry.

I mean guys, seagulls have three of the best four players here. How is this a contest?

Dunkapolooza
06-25-2018, 02:07 AM
Manus playoff #s are = / actually better than clyde's playoff numbers tho. Are we just supposed to ignore that because of clyde's name? If #s are being ignored then that's a whole different story. Again, I'm not arguing who's had the better career, or even who the better player is. I'm arguing that in THIS situation we are in, ALL of my players have proven to play ABOVE what they're averages suggest when playing in bigger moments.

You keep saying that but it's a garbage argument and you have to know that right? Manus numbers are a factor of being a role player. Is Brent Barry some kind of good with his monster eff? Didn't see anyone starting him. So your argument is weak. He was always the third most important guy to stop. At best. Never the guy defenses keyed against.

Manu rarely faced the opponents best defenders. In fact he usually faced their back ups. Almost any starter in this game, playing against back ups would have a fantastic ts% and a 20 per.

How do you not get that?

Clyde always guarded the other teams best wing player. He then had their best wing defender on him. That's what it means to be THE GUY. As opposed to "we'll live with what Manu does." Which is how most teams had to play the Spurs.

GREATNESS ONE
06-25-2018, 03:39 PM
Why does he have to be the most important player on a team with the Dream, Reed and IT?

he's just an *** hat lmao

GREATNESS ONE
06-25-2018, 03:39 PM
:win:

valade16
06-25-2018, 03:43 PM
Red Ribbon was down 3-9 and got 10 straight votes. Talk about a comeback.

Lakers + Giants
06-25-2018, 04:38 PM
You keep saying that but it's a garbage argument and you have to know that right? Manus numbers are a factor of being a role player. Is Brent Barry some kind of good with his monster eff? Didn't see anyone starting him. So your argument is weak. He was always the third most important guy to stop. At best. Never the guy defenses keyed against.

Manu rarely faced the opponents best defenders. In fact he usually faced their back ups. Almost any starter in this game, playing against back ups would have a fantastic ts% and a 20 per.

How do you not get that?

Clyde always guarded the other teams best wing player. He then had their best wing defender on him. That's what it means to be THE GUY. As opposed to "we'll live with what Manu does." Which is how most teams had to play the Spurs.

Those numbers I posted were of Manu in the playoffs! Where from 2005-2011 those are the numbers he put up while playing 33 minutes per game. You're telling me that he's facing backups for 33 minutes? That's completely untrue.

So Clyde who played 40 minutes in the playoffs should be praised for playing 7 more minutes and averaging 3 more points and significantly worse efficiency? That doesn't make sense. You're just praising volume now, and disregarding efficiency. Manu played 33 minutes per game during that 6 year stretch, sure he didn't start, but to say he faced inferior competition is just plain false... You can't sit here and tell me with a straight face that the other teams put a bench player on manu just because he came off the bench too. lmfao...

He exploited the hell out of other teams not because of who he went up against but because of how underrated manu is. You say he never saw the opposing teams defender, that's false, he did. Who were the other teams gonna guard? Duncan? Well yes, obviously a PF/C will try to contain him, that has nothing to do with Manu. The opposing team's best wing defender was always on manu, and he still dropped those impressive numbers on em. Did Duncan help make life easier for Manu? No doubt, just like there is no doubt Hakeem, Reed, and IT will make life easier for him as well. He'll still be just as efficient on my team and he'll be playing a role that's natural to him.

Brent Barry played significantly less minutes than Manu, like I said, just because manu came off the bench doesn't mean he wasn't the wing player other teams planned against. If you're arguing that opposing teams tried to limit Brent ****in Barry instead of Manu, then Idk what to tell you.

GREATNESS ONE
06-25-2018, 04:54 PM
Red Ribbon was down 3-9 and got 10 straight votes. Talk about a comeback.

https://youtu.be/vimZj8HW0Kg


Don't call it a comeback!

Dunkapolooza
06-25-2018, 06:01 PM
Those numbers I posted were of Manu in the playoffs! Where from 2005-2011 those are the numbers he put up while playing 33 minutes per game. You're telling me that he's facing backups for 33 minutes? That's completely untrue.

So Clyde who played 40 minutes in the playoffs should be praised for playing 7 more minutes and averaging 3 more points and significantly worse efficiency? That doesn't make sense. You're just praising volume now, and disregarding efficiency. Manu played 33 minutes per game during that 6 year stretch, sure he didn't start, but to say he faced inferior competition is just plain false... You can't sit here and tell me with a straight face that the other teams put a bench player on manu just because he came off the bench too. lmfao...

He exploited the hell out of other teams not because of who he went up against but because of how underrated manu is. You say he never saw the opposing teams defender, that's false, he did. Who were the other teams gonna guard? Duncan? Well yes, obviously a PF/C will try to contain him, that has nothing to do with Manu. The opposing team's best wing defender was always on manu, and he still dropped those impressive numbers on em. Did Duncan help make life easier for Manu? No doubt, just like there is no doubt Hakeem, Reed, and IT will make life easier for him as well. He'll still be just as efficient on my team and he'll be playing a role that's natural to him.

Brent Barry played significantly less minutes than Manu, like I said, just because manu came off the bench doesn't mean he wasn't the wing player other teams planned against. If you're arguing that opposing teams tried to limit Brent ****in Barry instead of Manu, then Idk what to tell you.

Why do I have to explain this man? Yeah he played 33 minutes... but he didn't start. He didn't play against the starters in rotation all game. That's how substitutions work. He played back ups when he first came in the game. And he played back ups in the back of the third quarter. Sat out the start of the fourth. And came in at the end. Manu only played against the other teams entire starting line up for a few minutes in the fourth. That's it.

Actual starters play the other teams whole starting unit at the beginning of the game. The start of the second half. And at the end of the fourth. Manu only played them at the end of the fourth. That means he's playing an inferior line up for most of those 33 minutes.

There is no team Clyde could ever have played for where he'd come in off the bench.

Tony Parker was the starter, who the spurs have always treated as better and more important to their team. Stopping tony from getting in the paint and stopping tim Duncan was always how teams approached the spurs. Then once Kawhi got their he was the focus of their defenses.

Never Ginobili. Ginobili never lead them in scoring, which goes to show you the difference between him and Clyde who lead his team in scoring almost every year of his career. While playing better defense, getting more rebounds, and more assists. You guys are hyping a scorer who couldn't even lead his own team in scoring lol. Did he even lead them in assist? Ever?

Clyde is miles above Ginobili.

Still waiting on a single team where prime ginobili could walk onto their team, be their best player, and lead that team deep in the playoffs. He is not the kind of player you are making him out to be. He is a nice piece to a team. Not the foundation of a team like Clyde. Meaning Manu is closer to brent barry (the best possible brent barry) than Manu is close to Clyde (who is closer to Michael Jordan than to Manu.) Its simply a question of limits. yes Clyde can be a nice piece but he can also be a great alpha. Manu can't be an alpha at all, and can just be a nice piece. He'd get smoked by Clyde on defense and on offense. On rebounding. Everywhere.

Clyde joining the Raptors would be their best player. Celtics? Their best player. Jazz, their best player. Blazers now, their best player. If he walked onto those championship spurs teams he'd either be their best player or their second best player. Manu was at best only ever their third best player.

Its ridiculous to think that Manu will anyway compete with Clyde Drexler.

And you guys are completely forgetting Karl Malone who is arguably comparable to LG's best player.

And Curry would destroy IT as if he were playing in an empty gym. IT with the ball could not even remotely compete with the offense of Clyde, Karl, and definitely not Curry. Look at his eff. IT needed elite defense at every level which LG does not have. Iggy is not Rodman. Manu is not Dumars. So there is no way that defense is going to compare overall to the pistons even with Hakeem protecting the paint.

At G - Seagulls would destroy LG and its not even close. Curry / Clyde vs IT / Manu? Come on man.

At wing - Seagulls would destroy LG. Clyde / Cunningham vs Manu / Iggu? Come on man. Two mvp caliber players vs two barely all stars.

Down Low - Seagulls have Tyson who is better defensively than Iggu is, so he'll do a better job on Hakeem or Reed than Iggu will do against Clyde. DPOY vs … a couple all d teams? Yeah...
And Karl can match anyone in scoring in the post.


I don't understand how Reed / Hakeem (a combined 50 pts) is supposed to outscore Curry / Clyde (55-60 pts) more than Karl / Cunningham (50 pts) outscores Manu / Iggu. (30 pts.)


It just doesn't make any sense.

Lakers + Giants
06-25-2018, 09:10 PM
Why do I have to explain this man? Yeah he played 33 minutes... but he didn't start. He didn't play against the starters in rotation all game. That's how substitutions work. He played back ups when he first came in the game. And he played back ups in the back of the third quarter. Sat out the start of the fourth. And came in at the end. Manu only played against the other teams entire starting line up for a few minutes in the fourth. That's it.

It's still 33 minutes, though, you are acting like ALL bench players get that, especially in the playoffs. He's playing 7 minutes less than what Clyde played. He's still playing more than Barry played even though Barry was the starter, and like you said, he's playing the quarter that matters most, the fourth. Why? Because of how good he was, not playing the fourth would be indicative of him not being good, yet he is playing the fourth because he's an elite talent. Pop just brought him off the bench because he was willing to do it for the betterment of the team..


Actual starters play the other teams whole starting unit at the beginning of the game. The start of the second half. And at the end of the fourth. Manu only played them at the end of the fourth. That means he's playing an inferior line up for most of those 33 minutes.

In a playoff matchup, a player plays 30+ minutes, like clyde who played 40. You mean to tell me that Manu avoided players up until the 4th when in the playoffs star players are played as much as possible? That makes zero sense. So say Clyde and Manu each play the entire 4th, that's 12 minutes. Manu still plays 21 more minutes, clyde still another 28. The rest of the 3 Quarters = 36 minutes. If manu is playing 21 minutes of those 36 and Clyde is playing 28 of those 36, they would only be avoiding each other for a maximum of 8 minutes. That means manu IS facing the better players the majority of the time, in fact, the only time he "avoids" the other teams best player is most likely in the first quarter, that's it.


There is no team Clyde could ever have played for where he'd come in off the bench.

Like I said, Im not denying clyde was the better overall player career wise, but this is more of an ego thing. Not that there's anything wrong at all with wanting to start. It's just manu was WILLING to come off the bench to help the team win, he put the team goal ahead of his own. Manu would still absolutely start on any other team..


Tony Parker was the starter, who the spurs have always treated as better and more important to their team. Stopping tony from getting in the paint and stopping tim Duncan was always how teams approached the spurs. Then once Kawhi got their he was the focus of their defenses.

Kawhi came once manu was declining, so that's a moot point.

In the same stretch I'm using (2005-2011): TP only scored 1 more point per game than Manu in the playoffs, on over 4 more attempts. So you're saying volume is more important than efficiency now? Because despite what you're saying, manu was scoring the same amount as TP in the playoffs. You're acting like in the playoffs other teams play their bench players 33 minutes as well, that's where your argument is completely incorrect.


Never Ginobili. Ginobili never lead them in scoring, which goes to show you the difference between him and Clyde who lead his team in scoring almost every year of his career. While playing better defense, getting more rebounds, and more assists. You guys are hyping a scorer who couldn't even lead his own team in scoring lol. Did he even lead them in assist? Ever?

Clyde is miles above Ginobili.

Never lead them in scoring, but he averaged 19-5-4 on elite efficiency in the playoffs. In the playoffs Clyde was not better though, what makes him better, again, is it volume?!? Cuz his efficiency dropped noticeably in the playoffs.. 53.2TS%.. It's not solely about who the players are, but how they perform in the situation that they're in, and manu performed better than clyde did in those big moments.. as did the rest of my team..


Still waiting on a single team where prime ginobili could walk onto their team, be their best player, and lead that team deep in the playoffs. He is not the kind of player you are making him out to be. He is a nice piece to a team. Not the foundation of a team like Clyde. Meaning Manu is closer to brent barry (the best possible brent barry) than Manu is close to Clyde (who is closer to Michael Jordan than to Manu.) Its simply a question of limits. yes Clyde can be a nice piece but he can also be a great alpha. Manu can't be an alpha at all, and can just be a nice piece. He'd get smoked by Clyde on defense and on offense. On rebounding. Everywhere.

But you're acting like empty stats on bad teams mean anything. If anything it's much more difficult to put up meaningful stats on a good team. Look at what happens to players when they join super teams, they're not the same players anymore. So you don't think manu can go to a team, take more shots at the cost of his efficiency and score more points average more rebounds and assists? Lmao, AGAIN, you're arguing volume over efficiency...

You're wrong about Clyde being the better defender tho, go look at the #s, they're basically IDENTICAL, you say I overrate Manu, I say you underrate him. Manu on Clyde is no where near as big a mismatch as Chandler on Hakeem is..


Clyde joining the Raptors would be their best player. Celtics? Their best player. Jazz, their best player. Blazers now, their best player. If he walked onto those championship spurs teams he'd either be their best player or their second best player. Manu was at best only ever their third best player.

Its ridiculous to think that Manu will anyway compete with Clyde Drexler.

So because he would be the best player on another team manu can't compete with him? Im not arguing the better overall player, i'm arguing the better player given the situation, playoffs, finals to be exact. Manu, and the rest of my players played at or above their career average. While Clyde himself didn't play like clyde, Malone didn't play like Malone, Curry didn't play like Curry until KD showed up, and even then KD outshined him both times.

I can use the same argument for Chandler, How is he even going to compete with Hakeem?! He won a DPOY vs Greg Monroe, Demarcus Cousins, Al Jefferson, Andrew Bynum, Dwight Howard, Roy Hibbert, and Al Horford.. Please tell me which of those guys is even on Hakeem's level offensively. It's one thing to win DPOY in an era rich with elite centers, like Hakeem did, it's another to win DPOY in the weakest era of centers...

How is Chandler even going to compete on EITHER end vs Hakeem? How? That's wayyyyy worse than manu on Clyde.


And you guys are completely forgetting Karl Malone who is arguably comparable to LG's best player.

Hakeem is still easily better than Karl Malone..

I will admit that Malone is better than my 2nd best player for his career, but his players never played liked themselves in this situation. In the playoffs, those players were basically a shell of themselves because they underperformed relative to their regular season performances. My team did the opposite.


And Curry would destroy IT as if he were playing in an empty gym. IT with the ball could not even remotely compete with the offense of Clyde, Karl, and definitely not Curry. Look at his eff. IT needed elite defense at every level which LG does not have. Iggy is not Rodman. Manu is not Dumars. So there is no way that defense is going to compare overall to the pistons even with Hakeem protecting the paint.

But why would IT he need better defense at all positions? IT's efficiency would be more dependent on my offense than my teams defense. Hakeem is better than any option that IT has ever had, hell, Manu is probably better offensively than any player IT played with too. Could you imagine IT's playmaking ability improving even more with Hakeem and Manu?


At G - Seagulls would destroy LG and its not even close. Curry / Clyde vs IT / Manu? Come on man.

At wing - Seagulls would destroy LG. Clyde / Cunningham vs Manu / Iggu? Come on man. Two mvp caliber players vs two barely all stars.

Down Low - Seagulls have Tyson who is better defensively than Iggu is, so he'll do a better job on Hakeem or Reed than Iggu will do against Clyde. DPOY vs … a couple all d teams? Yeah...
And Karl can match anyone in scoring in the post.


I don't understand how Reed / Hakeem (a combined 50 pts) is supposed to outscore Curry / Clyde (55-60 pts) more than Karl / Cunningham (50 pts) outscores Manu / Iggu. (30 pts.)


It just doesn't make any sense.

So you disregard Manu's #s because you argue he played against bench players. However, you call cunningham an MVP caliber player? Why because he won it in the ABA? in the 60s... Chandler would compete with Hakeem because chandler competed against Dwight, Hibbert, Monroe, Bynum, Lopez, Jefferson, and Cousins? lmfao, way to show your bias...

GREATNESS ONE
06-26-2018, 10:40 AM
:win:

valade16
06-26-2018, 11:58 AM
Congratulations LG! You built a great team.

Lakers + Giants
06-26-2018, 02:29 PM
Congratulations LG! You built a great team.

Appreciate it. That trade ended up being great for both of us.

I'm glad I was able to discuss Manu and Clyde while Ignoring Reed v Malone and IT v Curry as much as possible lmao.