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Redrum187
06-18-2018, 03:15 PM
If Dirk won in 2006, would he be the unanimous (or at least as unanimous as Tim Duncan being the greatest) 2nd best Power-Forward of all time? As it stands, he's many people's 2nd greatest Power-Forward already but Karl Malone, Charles Barkley, and Kevin Garnett are all considered to be on the same level. Why or why not?

(Note: Dirk had to beat the defending champions Spurs with prime Tim Duncan and prime Steve Nash with the Phoenix Suns to get to the Finals.)

FlashBolt
06-18-2018, 03:21 PM
A valid case could be made, for sure. I have Dirk as third in my PF list but it's so damn close. I just feel KG's overall impact has always been better than Dirk. What Dirk does is he steps it up in the playoffs so that's a worthy consideration.

Duncan
KG
Dirk
Barkley/Malone

I know Spurs fans will attest to Duncan being the perfect fit for the Spurs/vice-versa but I think Dirk would have fit right in as well. If he was in the Spurs, he'd have about three rings easily and we would be looking at a top 10 NBA player. As it stands now, Dirk is probably in that 15-20 range.

Dade County
06-18-2018, 03:31 PM
Wade 97 trips to the foul line...:win:

I don't believe Dirk needs that title for his overall ranking at the PF spot. Everyone knows he was greet and they judge him by that.

FlashBolt
06-18-2018, 03:33 PM
Wade 97 trips to the foul line...:win:

I don't believe Dirk needs that title for his overall ranking at the PF spot. Everyone knows he was greet and they judge him by that.

He would have won two titles at his prime being a top five NBA player in both years. In one year (2011), he got past Kobe, Durant, and LeBron/Wade. In 2006, he leads his team to beat the #1/#2 seed in Spurs/Suns. He would definitely have been in the top 13 area - which is a significant feat.

kdspurman
06-18-2018, 03:43 PM
A valid case could be made, for sure. I have Dirk as third in my PF list but it's so damn close. I just feel KG's overall impact has always been better than Dirk. What Dirk does is he steps it up in the playoffs so that's a worthy consideration.

Duncan
KG
Dirk
Barkley/Malone

I know Spurs fans will attest to Duncan being the perfect fit for the Spurs/vice-versa but I think Dirk would have fit right in as well. If he was in the Spurs, he'd have about three rings easily and we would be looking at a top 10 NBA player. As it stands now, Dirk is probably in that 15-20 range.

Idk about that last paragraph. Dirk was not doing near what Timmy was defensively. That was their bread and butter from the moment Duncan came in, having an elite defensive team. Dirk benefited from guys like Marion and Chandler cause they were able to cover a lot of ground defensively. Duncan was that anchor, guarding perimeter bigs and defending at the rim/blocking shots.

Dade County
06-18-2018, 03:47 PM
He would have won two titles at his prime being a top five NBA player in both years.

Lbj gave Dallas that title. If Mavs won in 96, no way they get that title in Lbj first season.

#JustBusiness. Following Orders... NBA=Entertainment


He
In one year (2011), he got past Kobe, Durant, and LeBron/Wade. In 2006, he leads his team to beat the #1/#2 seed in Spurs/Suns. He would definitely have been in the top 13 area - which is a significant feat.

I still believe he is in the same spot. To me KG is better then him, and two rings wouldn't change my mind.

Just like KD having two rings right now. I have not elevated him status wise. He is the same player I always thought he was, a great scorer that can play situational defense. He isn't going to climb any all time list of mine.

This GS team is broken. It's the team I give all the credit too.

FlashBolt
06-18-2018, 04:11 PM
Idk about that last paragraph. Dirk was not doing near what Timmy was defensively. That was their bread and butter from the moment Duncan came in, having an elite defensive team. Dirk benefited from guys like Marion and Chandler cause they were able to cover a lot of ground defensively. Duncan was that anchor, guarding perimeter bigs and defending at the rim/blocking shots.

That's why I said Dirk would have 3 rings easily and not the five Duncan won. You can't deny Dirk would fit right in for obvious reasons.

kdspurman
06-18-2018, 04:20 PM
That's why I said Dirk would have 3 rings easily and not the five Duncan won. You can't deny Dirk would fit right in for obvious reasons.

Idk if I would say 3 easily tho either tbh.. He may have fit into the later year Spurs, but idk how he fits in with the late 90's-mid 2000's spurs, grind it out/defense first style. He doesn't give you anything near what Duncan did defensively, + the other intangibles he brought to the team.

FlashBolt
06-18-2018, 04:59 PM
Idk if I would say 3 easily tho either tbh.. He may have fit into the later year Spurs, but idk how he fits in with the late 90's-mid 2000's spurs, grind it out/defense first style. He doesn't give you anything near what Duncan did defensively, + the other intangibles he brought to the team.

He gives you much better offense. Spurs would have to build differently but Dirk never really needed the ball at all times so he would have been able to play very well alongside Parker and Gino. Defense would be a problem depending on how the team is built but if Dirk was able to win nearly two with the Mavs, I am willing to bet he can win three being coached under Pop as a guarantee.

Redrum187
06-18-2018, 06:53 PM
He gives you much better offense. Spurs would have to build differently but Dirk never really needed the ball at all times so he would have been able to play very well alongside Parker and Gino. Defense would be a problem depending on how the team is built but if Dirk was able to win nearly two with the Mavs, I am willing to bet he can win three being coached under Pop as a guarantee.

Dirk and Timmy are my favorite 2 players of all time, and I'd have to overall agree with you. The "downgrade" from Timmy to Dirk would be somewhat negligible considering the makeup of the Spurs roster and Coach Pop.

Furthermore, while Duncan is clearly the best of all time, he always had the superior team. When PSD has an All Time Redraft, MAYBE someone might select Jason Terry on their bench... but more often than not, he is excluded from being selected on a team while there are multiple players chosen who played with Duncan.

I think the fact Dirk went head-to-head with Duncan holding his own ought to give him the nod at #2. The conspiracy of the 2006 NBA Finals which played a part in Dirk not getting his first ring until 2011 doesn't really make me count it against him either. Surely, if he had won it, I couldn't imagine an argument against Dirk being the unanimous #2.

Name another player who has beat prime Kobe, prime LeBron, prime Duncan, prime Wade, prime Durant and prime Nash in the postseason... I'll wait.... He even did it having INFERIOR teammates which no one can argue otherwise.

ewing
06-18-2018, 08:19 PM
Dirk should be hands down the #2 guy now


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cmellofan15
06-18-2018, 09:32 PM
umm you forgot to put in your note that phoenix with prime nash was missing prime amare in that playoff run.

KingstonHawke
06-18-2018, 10:00 PM
I feel uncomfortable voting just because Barkley's name is on the list. He's not anywhere near the other 3 PFs being discussed. Other than that my answer is no. Very hard to place Dirk over Garnett when Dirk wasn't a two-way star.

Back to Barkley, how can anyone justify putting him in their top 5? That's almost as bad as people who put Bird or Nash in their top 5 at PG or SF. Seems like the worse thing that happened to Kevin Love is being forced to play on a good team. He could've stayed in Minnesota and made the HoF easily.

James and Durant should just pick the worse teams in the league, score 40 pts a night each, and then you guys would respect them more.

Quinnsanity
06-18-2018, 10:47 PM
Dirk could have five championships and would be below KG.

Chronz
06-18-2018, 10:51 PM
Dont need chips to know Barkley was greater than he

JAZZNC
06-19-2018, 12:19 AM
I feel uncomfortable voting just because Barkley's name is on the list. He's not anywhere near the other 3 PFs being discussed. Other than that my answer is no. Very hard to place Dirk over Garnett when Dirk wasn't a two-way star.

Back to Barkley, how can anyone justify putting him in their top 5? That's almost as bad as people who put Bird or Nash in their top 5 at PG or SF. Seems like the worse thing that happened to Kevin Love is being forced to play on a good team. He could've stayed in Minnesota and made the HoF easily.

James and Durant should just pick the worse teams in the league, score 40 pts a night each, and then you guys would respect them more.

Since you're not smart enough to know the difference between "worse" and "worst" your opinion really doesn't matter. We won't even get into your idiotic comments about Larry Bird.


On topic, I've always kind of laughed at the notion of KG being ranked higher than Dirk. Dirk showed up big in the playoffs and was always the unquestioned man on his team. He didn't have to go team up with 2 other first ballot HOFers to finally accomplish something in the playoffs. Not that Dirk didn't have any help as his role players played out of their minds during that championship run but he didn't have to have somebody else be the alpha the way KG did.

jaydubb
06-19-2018, 12:58 AM
KG and dirk are close but I'd give KG the edge because he did it on both ends of the court (though dirk was superior on offense). Neither mailman or Chuck could get it done in the playoffs.

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jaydubb
06-19-2018, 12:59 AM
Oh and BTW.. Happy birthday dirk!

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ewing
06-19-2018, 06:39 AM
KG vs Pau Gasol is a better debate then KG vs Dirk.

WaDe03
06-19-2018, 10:25 AM
Wade 97 trips to the foul line...:win:

I don't believe Dirk needs that title for his overall ranking at the PF spot. Everyone knows he was greet and they judge him by that.

Dirk scored the same percentage of his points from the foul line as Wade did in that series. Wade was just a tougher cover and far more aggressive towards the rim.

KingstonHawke
06-19-2018, 12:38 PM
Since you're not smart enough to know the difference between "worse" and "worst" your opinion really doesn't matter. We won't even get into your idiotic comments about Larry Bird.


On topic, I've always kind of laughed at the notion of KG being ranked higher than Dirk. Dirk showed up big in the playoffs and was always the unquestioned man on his team. He didn't have to go team up with 2 other first ballot HOFers to finally accomplish something in the playoffs. Not that Dirk didn't have any help as his role players played out of their minds during that championship run but he didn't have to have somebody else be the alpha the way KG did.

The ad hominems give away that you're just a racist white guy mad at me because you want to pretend that all the white greats are the greater than they actually are.

I love Dirk, but let's not pretend like he'd of won more than KG if they had switched places at any point in their careers. Now go cry in your MAGA hat you dunce.

JAZZNC
06-19-2018, 01:37 PM
The ad hominems give away that you're just a racist white guy mad at me because you want to pretend that all the white greats are the greater than they actually are.

I love Dirk, but let's not pretend like he'd of won more than KG if they had switched places at any point in their careers. Now go cry in your MAGA hat you dunce.

That may be the best argument I've ever heard as to why Bird shouldn't be a top 5 all time SF and excellent points regarding Dirk and KG. You've totally changed my mind!

Dade County
06-19-2018, 02:51 PM
Dirk scored the same percentage of his points from the foul line as Wade did in that series. Wade was just a tougher cover and far more aggressive towards the rim.

Did not know that.

Chronz
06-19-2018, 03:45 PM
This thread got racially provocative. I can't tell which one of you is the bigot but I'm leaning towards.....

Chronz
06-19-2018, 03:47 PM
Did not know that.

That's cuz the nba let udonis get physical with dirk so he missed alot of shots that would've been ft but instead counted as missed shots.

Ive always wanted to review certain stats from that series. Was zo the 2nd best heat guy

WaDe03
06-19-2018, 04:40 PM
That's cuz the nba let udonis get physical with dirk so he missed alot of shots that would've been ft but instead counted as missed shots.

Ive always wanted to review certain stats from that series. Was zo the 2nd best heat guy

Yes he was, he was big for them off the bench.

YAALREADYKNO
06-21-2018, 12:30 PM
Would’ve been no debate as to who the 2nd greatest PF was of all time but even now I still have him 2nd behind only Duncan

Vee-Rex
06-22-2018, 09:12 AM
KG and dirk are close but I'd give KG the edge because he did it on both ends of the court (though dirk was superior on offense). Neither mailman or Chuck could get it done in the playoffs.

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To be fair both would have a ring if not for MJ. MJ is the reason a lot of hall of famers are ringless.

Quinnsanity
06-22-2018, 01:33 PM
Name another player who has beat prime Kobe, prime LeBron, prime Duncan, prime Wade, prime Durant and prime Nash in the postseason... I'll wait.... He even did it having INFERIOR teammates which no one can argue otherwise.

Your definition of prime is really off. He beat KD in his fourth NBA season. He beat Kobe in his 15th. He beat Nash without Amar'e, and when those two teams played at full strength in '05, Phoenix won. I'm even hesitant to say he beat prime LeBron. Forget about the Finals choke... is there anyone here that really thinks '11 LeBron is in the same universe as current LeBron? Or even '13 LeBron? What defines prime here? Because it seems like you're just saying "not a rookie and not decrepit." There is a difference. I would argue that Duncan has a far more impressive set of heads on his mantle from players that actually were in their prime or at least closer to it. Shaq and Kobe in '03, LeBron in '14, KD and Westbrook in '14 (though Ibaka missed the first two games), Nash in '05 and '07 (though Amar'e was suspended for one game), '10 Dirk, '08 and '12 CP3, I could go on and on.

Chronz
06-22-2018, 02:57 PM
Your definition of prime is really off. He beat KD in his fourth NBA season. He beat Kobe in his 15th. He beat Nash without Amar'e, and when those two teams played at full strength in '05, Phoenix won. I'm even hesitant to say he beat prime LeBron. Forget about the Finals choke... is there anyone here that really thinks '11 LeBron is in the same universe as current LeBron? Or even '13 LeBron? What defines prime here? Because it seems like you're just saying "not a rookie and not decrepit." There is a difference. I would argue that Duncan has a far more impressive set of heads on his mantle from players that actually were in their prime or at least closer to it. Shaq and Kobe in '03, LeBron in '14, KD and Westbrook in '14 (though Ibaka missed the first two games), Nash in '05 and '07 (though Amar'e was suspended for one game), '10 Dirk, '08 and '12 CP3, I could go on and on.

What's impressive about beating hurt shaqobe with a depleted bench after a threepeat?

FlashBolt
06-22-2018, 03:12 PM
Your definition of prime is really off. He beat KD in his fourth NBA season. He beat Kobe in his 15th. He beat Nash without Amar'e, and when those two teams played at full strength in '05, Phoenix won. I'm even hesitant to say he beat prime LeBron. Forget about the Finals choke... is there anyone here that really thinks '11 LeBron is in the same universe as current LeBron? Or even '13 LeBron? What defines prime here? Because it seems like you're just saying "not a rookie and not decrepit." There is a difference. I would argue that Duncan has a far more impressive set of heads on his mantle from players that actually were in their prime or at least closer to it. Shaq and Kobe in '03, LeBron in '14, KD and Westbrook in '14 (though Ibaka missed the first two games), Nash in '05 and '07 (though Amar'e was suspended for one game), '10 Dirk, '08 and '12 CP3, I could go on and on.

Kobe, LeBron, and Wade at that time were regarded as top five players. KD had a case as well. Dirk beat four top five players in the NBA on the road to his first championship. They weren't at their prime but they damn sure were elite players.

Jamiecballer
06-22-2018, 03:15 PM
it wouldn't make a difference in my opinion. he's still last of the four on my list.

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LeonFSU
06-22-2018, 04:38 PM
Yes he was, he was big for them off the bench.

No, it was Shaq. Zo played 10 minutes per game.

KingPosey
06-22-2018, 06:07 PM
Wade 97 trips to the foul line...:win:

I don't believe Dirk needs that title for his overall ranking at the PF spot. Everyone knows he was greet and they judge him by that.

I am Greet.

Mr.ATLHawks
06-22-2018, 07:29 PM
The ad hominems give away that you're just a racist white guy mad at me because you want to pretend that all the white greats are the greater than they actually are.

I love Dirk, but let's not pretend like he'd of won more than KG if they had switched places at any point in their careers. Now go cry in your MAGA hat you dunce.

While I agree Dirk is slightly over rated in the Top PF convo. Idc what color you are, im black BTW, Bird is Top 5 SFs...even Magic and MJ would agree.