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View Full Version : Lacob says Warriors will try to keep Green and Thompson



mrblisterdundee
06-11-2018, 01:57 AM
Warriors owner Joe Lacob plans to try and keep Klay Thompson and Draymond Green, although both would have to surrender significant money:



"All good things cost a lot," Lacob told ESPN.com's Ramona Shelburne. "We're going to try to sign Klay and Draymond to extensions this summer. They've earned the right to do whatever they want; maybe they want to wait until free agency. I can't control that. But we'll do whatever we can to keep them."
...
It's not in Thompson's best interest to ink an extension right now. An extension this summer would pay out $102 million, while a max contract in the summer of 2019 could net him $187.9 million.
Green, meanwhile, is slated to net $17.5 million next season and $18.5 million during the 2019-20 campaign. Like Thompson, it stands to reason he would be forfeiting some serious cash if he re-upped now instead of waiting until he becomes an unrestricted free agent.
"We've proven that if we think we're competing for a championship, we'll be in the luxury tax," Lacob said. "No one wants to be, but we expect to be. All I can tell you is we're going to sit down and do our planning on how we're going to improve the team for the future and setting ourselves up in the future. And it could go a number of different ways."
- Alec Nathan, Bleacher Report (https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2780426-warriors-to-try-to-sign-klay-thompson-draymond-green-to-contract-extensions)

Saddletramp
06-11-2018, 02:05 AM
Unbelievable! Lacob wants to retain those two? You don’t say.


Don’t worry, they’ll make up that lost income (and then some for taking a sweetheart deal) from Lacob’s buddies in endorsement deals.

BKLYNpigeon
06-11-2018, 02:34 AM
That’s a big reason why the Warriors are moving to SF in the New Chase Arena.

Ticket sales and the money they make from renting the arena out, will offset the impending luxury tax.

Dade County
06-11-2018, 03:50 AM
Klay shouldn't re-sign now, you never know GS might just trade him. No reason to rush.

KingstonHawke
06-11-2018, 07:01 AM
While Klay is the better player, Green is more unique and potentially cheaper. If they can't keep both don't be surprised if it's Green who stays. This is the same thing that happened with the Thunder. The correct decision was keeping Ibaka and trading the better Hardin.

I'd trade Klay for the right offer right now, let him go be a superstar somewhere else. That 2nd overall and Buddy Hield would be enough. Ayton, Bagley, or Bamba would all develop amazingly on this Warriors roster. Look at how good McGee looked at times.

warfelg
06-11-2018, 07:03 AM
Heard a rumor that there is estimations that in the new arena, season ticket prices will skyrocket.

Like first 10 rows will balloon from $100,000 to $500,000.

nastynice
06-11-2018, 07:04 AM
Unbelievable! Lacob wants to retain those two? You don’t say.


Don’t worry, they’ll make up that lost income (and then some for taking a sweetheart deal) from Lacob’s buddies in endorsement deals.

Gotta even it up somehow. Or should teams in states that have no state tax be the only ones with inherit advantages?

Scoots
06-11-2018, 10:34 AM
Gotta even it up somehow. Or should teams in states that have no state tax be the only ones with inherit advantages?

The Warriors local TV deal is terrible right now, not sure when it's available for renegotiation, but it will likely triple.

That said, this whole thread isn't news at all.

Giannis94
06-11-2018, 10:36 AM
Ima create a thread anytime an owner says they're trying to create a player.

Bucks trying to keep Snell and ROY Broggy? thread. Bulls trying to keep Dunn and some scrub? Thread.

kobe4thewinbang
06-11-2018, 11:04 AM
Push comes to shove, keep Draymond over Klay. Draymond is a poor man's LeBron.
I could see Draymond being chill with an extension, but not Klay. Time will tell.

WestCoastSportz
06-11-2018, 11:56 AM
The NBA is a business of entertainment and like any business, they're goal is to maximize their profits. There aren't many ways to cut costs in the NBA, except for the enormous salaries they give to their employees. As fans, of course we want to see them keep re-signing their own players, but you also have to look at what it costs in order to do so, especially when they're paying a million per every million that they're over the threshold. Thats still a lot of money no matter what tax bracket you're in. Over the last two seasons, the Warriors will have paid roughly $32M in luxury taxes. They had a payroll of $139M this past season so that figure becomes $157M after the taxes are paid. Lets not forget that they're also spending $1B on the new Chase Center as well. Sooner or later, they'll have to find way to cut costs.

I was absolutely surprised when Curry took a max deal. Sure he has been underpaid for the last 5 years but that was because of his ankle issues. The Warriors didn't want to invest too much into him at the time and Curry was looking for a guaranteed stable financial solution just in case his ankle never really healed. Looking into the future. Klay signs an extension at $27M a year and Draymond Green, after the 19-20 season, signs an extension for around the same amount. Durant continues to sign his 2 year contracts with an opt out in the second year, lets say for $30M, which is still a bargain for him. In that 20-21 season, they would have to allocate $127M just for those four players. With the pattern of the cap rise, they would still be over the cap with only 4 players.

Thats not to say that the Warriors can't win another championship with just Curry and KD, but the salary cap is there of reason.

TrueFan420
06-11-2018, 12:07 PM
Klay shouldn't re-sign now, you never know GS might just trade him. No reason to rush.

It wouldn't be hard to have a NTC added to the contract

tredigs
06-11-2018, 01:04 PM
Ima create a thread anytime an owner says they're trying to create a player.

Bucks trying to keep Snell and ROY Broggy? thread. Bulls trying to keep Dunn and some scrub? Thread.
In case it needs to be spelled out for you, those players (and frankly your team) does not matter to the NBA. These are All Stars and have implications of how a dynasty will progress, which in turn colors how the entire league will progress.

The owners are getting a $300 million dollar 30 year loan (interest free) this summer from personal-seat-licenses at the new arena. And their sales as is on a global level are astronomical. They reportedly made $130 million on their 11 home playoff games this year alone. If they want to keep everyone, they have the means.

Giannis94
06-11-2018, 02:12 PM
In case it needs to be spelled out for you, those players (and frankly your team) does not matter to the NBA. These are All Stars and have implications of how a dynasty will progress, which in turn colors how the entire league will progress.

The owners are getting a $300 million dollar 30 year loan (interest free) this summer from personal-seat-licenses at the new arena. And their sales as is on a global level are astronomical. They reportedly made $130 million on their 11 home playoff games this year alone. If they want to keep everyone, they have the means.

My team does ****ing matter. We have the best Bucking (not filter dodging) in the entire god damn league. Nice fialed troll attempt. Bucks woulda taken down the worriers in 5. Child plz.

BKLYNpigeon
06-11-2018, 02:22 PM
It wouldn't be hard to have a NTC added to the contract

I think not giving Curry one sets the tone for the team. Nobody can have one on the Warriors.

I think theres alot of trust between players and front office. If they ever had to trade a piece it wouldnt be to a bad situation.

When we had to dump Bogut we gave him options to Houston Dallas and Celtics.

BKLYNpigeon
06-11-2018, 02:26 PM
My team does ****ing matter. We have the best Bucking (not filter dodging) in the entire god damn league. Nice fialed troll attempt. Bucks woulda taken down the worriers in 5. Child plz.

lol sure buddy.. Bucks havent made it out of the first round since 2000. You're still a tier below Boston and Philly in the East.

Giannis94
06-11-2018, 02:29 PM
lol sure buddy.. Bucks havent made it out of the first round since 2000. You're still a tier below Boston and Philly in the East.

Raptors are TBD. the team who had Miami had the easiest first round matchip. Bucks took Boston to 7. Nuff said. I'm not allowed to talk about a certain team otherwise I'd drop some real knowledge.

Bucks actually have a coach now. The Eas....NVM. The ENTIRE League has been put on watch.

#nomorebuckingaround #trustthegiannis

BKLYNpigeon
06-11-2018, 02:33 PM
Raptors are TBD. the team who had Miami had the easiest first round matchip. Bucks took Boston to 7. Nuff said. I'm not allowed to talk about a certain team otherwise I'd drop some real knowledge.

Bucks actually have a coach now. The Eas....NVM. The ENTIRE League has been put on watch.

#nomorebuckingaround #trustthegiannis

Boston was without their 2 allstars.

Definitely a make or break year for the Bucks. It would be interesting to see what happens with Jabari.

Giannis94
06-11-2018, 02:38 PM
Boston was without their 2 allstars.

Definitely a make or break year for the Bucks. It would be interesting to see what happens with Jabari.

I personally only want Jabari if its a team friendly/short deal. Aka nothing >3 years. 3 years and high AAV, sure. But even at his peak, until he proves otherwise, I only see a Danny Dranger/Melo.

TrueFan420
06-11-2018, 02:46 PM
I think not giving Curry one sets the tone for the team. Nobody can have one on the Warriors.

I think theres alot of trust between players and front office. If they ever had to trade a piece it wouldnt be to a bad situation.

When we had to dump Bogut we gave him options to Houston Dallas and Celtics.

I agree that there's a lot of trust but Curry got the Max and he's the face of the franchise. Klay could be leaving a lot of money on the table to stay. He's also the most redundant of the group. He may want that NTC and I wouldn't blame him if he did.

FOXHOUND
06-11-2018, 03:01 PM
I agree that there's a lot of trust but Curry got the Max and he's the face of the franchise. Klay could be leaving a lot of money on the table to stay. He's also the most redundant of the group. He may want that NTC and I wouldn't blame him if he did.

I disagree about Klay being the most redundant. I don't think there's a single player in the league who could replicate what he does. Not only on offense, where his ability to snipe and pour in points at times without needing the ball is invaluable next to Durant and Curry, but as a strong multi-positional defender on top of it.

Now you could say the same about Draymond in terms of no one being able to fill all the blanks he provides either, but I think they could easier get away with a more traditional big in his place (say, Jordan Bell?) in no small part thanks to the added rim protection they have with Durant around. Offensively his passing would be missed, but Durant, Curry and Klay can do more than enough to cover that up, IMO.

mngopher35
06-11-2018, 03:15 PM
I disagree about Klay being the most redundant. I don't think there's a single player in the league who could replicate what he does. Not only on offense, where his ability to snipe and pour in points at times without needing the ball is invaluable next to Durant and Curry, but as a strong multi-positional defender on top of it.

Now you could say the same about Draymond in terms of no one being able to fill all the blanks he provides either, but I think they could easier get away with a more traditional big in his place (say, Jordan Bell?) in no small part thanks to the added rim protection they have with Durant around. Offensively his passing would be missed, but Durant, Curry and Klay can do more than enough to cover that up, IMO.

Not on this team though. Klay gets nuetralized due to Curry/Durant while Green is still maximized with his defense/passing/playmaking off Curry/others. Curry/Durant both shoot great and score high volume bringing very similar things to Klay. Curry also is a great playmaker but this is where Draymonds playmaking/versatility come in as something different next to him this team doesn't have. Defense should be obvious why as well.

Take out Klay and you still have the engine to the offense. You still have defensive wings (KD/Iggy). You still have an elite scorer, from 3pt range as well (two of them actually). The things Klay brings just get nuetralized to an extent on this team and he goes from 2016 Klay in the first couple rounds to the Klay we have seen the last two post seasons. He becomes a 3/d role player with elite talent type thing.

12 PER, .082 WS/48, -.1 BPM. This doesn't mean he sucks but it seems pretty clear he is used as a role player now moreso than an all star like his talents would normally dictate. It's because he is a bit redundant as was mentioned in a sense. Draymond crushes these numbers as his impact isn't as hindered by his surroundings (in fact you could argue it helps him a lot as opposed to holding him back). RS RPM numbers etc help show this too, the key being Draymond is still having a huge impact while Klay is kinda playing a role to allow the others to keep having theirs type of thing because his skills are a bit redundant so he isn't used in a maximizing way (which makes him more expendable imo).

FOXHOUND
06-11-2018, 03:29 PM
Not on this team though. Klay gets nuetralized due to Curry/Durant while Green is still maximized with his defense/passing/playmaking off Curry/others. Curry/Durant both shoot great and score high volume bringing very similar things to Klay. Curry also is a great playmaker but this is where Draymonds playmaking/versatility come in as something different next to him this team doesn't have. Defense should be obvious why as well.

Take out Klay and you still have the engine to the offense. You still have defensive wings (KD/Iggy). You still have an elite scorer, from 3pt range as well (two of them actually). The things Klay brings just get nuetralized to an extent on this team and he goes from 2016 Klay in the first couple rounds to the Klay we have seen the last two post seasons. He becomes a 3/d role player with elite talent type thing.

12 PER, .082 WS/48, -.1 BPM. This doesn't mean he sucks but it seems pretty clear he is used as a role player now moreso than an all star like his talents would normally dictate. It's because he is a bit redundant as was mentioned in a sense. Draymond crushes these numbers as his impact isn't as hindered by his surroundings (in fact you could argue it helps him a lot as opposed to holding him back). RS RPM numbers etc help show this too, the key being Draymond is still having a huge impact while Klay is kinda playing a role to allow the others to keep having theirs type of thing because his skills are a bit redundant so he isn't used in a maximizing way (which makes him more expendable imo).

Ya I definitely agree that Draymond is elevated by the situation more than anyone. Not to crap on him, because he's like the dream role player of course, but I think there's an element of sacrifice from others that allow him to do as much as he does. Probably most so from Curry, in terms of playmaking, but it all works.

On Klay, I don't know I don't think he's marginalized that much. Those rate stats are never going to be kind to him, as he doesn't handle the ball much at all and gives you very little on the boards and in assists, but I don't think his scoring should be understated.

You can look at the WCF vs Houston, the real NBA Finals. Durant and Curry were dominating the ball and doing their thing, to the tune of 30.4 PPG and 25.0 PPG. Traditionally when we see a duo dominate like this it doesn't leave much for anyone else as there's only one ball and so many shots to go around. You can look at this current OKC group as a horrendous example of that, or the LeBron-Kyrie-Love Cavs and LeBron-Wade-Bosh Heat as others. Some cases where it can work is Houston, because Harden-Paul-Gordon are rotating and only two are on the court at the same time.

But with Klay, he's able to play 38 MPG just like Durant and Curry and drop in his efficient 19.4 PPG needing just 106 FGA (15.1 per game) and 10 FTA (1.4 per game). The ball dominance drop off can be seen after that too, with no other player averaging even 9 PPG for the series (Iggy at 8.7 and Draymond at 8.3 being the next two).

Without Klay, I think they would suffer a huge scoring vacuum and become waaay too much like the Durant-WB OKC teams post Harden-trade. Another player in that role would be much more like Love-Bosh in a good case or Melo in a bad one, someone who traditionally needs the ball to score and fails to fit into such a limited touch role.

mngopher35
06-11-2018, 03:44 PM
Ya I definitely agree that Draymond is elevated by the situation more than anyone. Not to crap on him, because he's like the dream role player of course, but I think there's an element of sacrifice from others that allow him to do as much as he does. Probably most so from Curry, in terms of playmaking, but it all works.

On Klay, I don't know I don't think he's marginalized that much. Those rate stats are never going to be kind to him, as he doesn't handle the ball much at all and gives you very little on the boards and in assists, but I don't think his scoring should be understated.

You can look at the WCF vs Houston, the real NBA Finals. Durant and Curry were dominating the ball and doing their thing, to the tune of 30.4 PPG and 25.0 PPG. Traditionally when we see a duo dominate like this it doesn't leave much for anyone else as there's only one ball and so many shots to go around. You can look at this current OKC group as a horrendous example of that, or the LeBron-Kyrie-Love Cavs and LeBron-Wade-Bosh Heat as others. Some cases where it can work is Houston, because Harden-Paul-Gordon are rotating and only two are on the court at the same time.

But with Klay, he's able to play 38 MPG just like Durant and Curry and drop in his efficient 19.4 PPG needing just 106 FGA (15.1 per game) and 10 FTA (1.4 per game). The ball dominance drop off can be seen after that too, with no other player averaging even 9 PPG for the series (Iggy at 8.7 and Draymond at 8.3 being the next two).

Without Klay, I think they would suffer a huge scoring vacuum and become waaay too much like the Durant-WB OKC teams post Harden-trade.

I have covered the numbers before but look at 2016 Klay when Curry was out in the playoffs after game 1 rockets and came back up 2-1 against portland (they were great even for a legit #1). Klay killed it as the first option in the playoffs with a 5-2 record essentially without Curry and Green as the 2nd best player. Small sample but you get to there not being enough touches for him in the league etc. so you seem to get the point. If his skills weren't redundant and they didn't have 2 MVP players who also score in volume (and high efficiency 3) he would be going off more with these types of numbers. That's the point, that is part of the proof that he is redundant is that he went from elite numbers in a 1 role to role player numbers in this role. He isn't being maximized but his spacing (what 3/d role players provide) is still more elite than a role player sure.

I mean doesn't it make sense that if Green is maximized here then he is bringing things that aren't redundant? Klay isn't maximized because he is. I think the raw stats would be better if he were using his best skills to score more etc. instead of being used more as the spacer for the other two to do damage (even you get at there not being enough ball to go around, because they are redundant to an extent). A 3/d player would hurt their scoring a bit but right now Curry's numbers have also suffered from sharing more etc. so they have the star power to possibly still pick that up (and then we actually could see them tested some individually tbh, right now imo it is clear they aren't being pushed to their limits)

tredigs
06-11-2018, 04:21 PM
I have covered the numbers before but look at 2016 Klay when Curry was out in the playoffs after game 1 rockets and came back up 2-1 against portland (they were great even for a legit #1). Klay killed it as the first option in the playoffs with a 5-2 record essentially without Curry and Green as the 2nd best player. Small sample but you get to there not being enough touches for him in the league etc. so you seem to get the point. If his skills weren't redundant and they didn't have 2 MVP players who also score in volume (and high efficiency 3) he would be going off more with these types of numbers. That's the point, that is part of the proof that he is redundant is that he went from elite numbers in a 1 role to role player numbers in this role. He isn't being maximized but his spacing (what 3/d role players provide) is still more elite than a role player sure.

I mean doesn't it make sense that if Green is maximized here then he is bringing things that aren't redundant? Klay isn't maximized because he is. I think the raw stats would be better if he were using his best skills to score more etc. instead of being used more as the spacer for the other two to do damage (even you get at there not being enough ball to go around, because they are redundant to an extent). A 3/d player would hurt their scoring a bit but right now Curry's numbers have also suffered from sharing more etc. so they have the star power to possibly still pick that up (and then we actually could see them tested some individually tbh, right now imo it is clear they aren't being pushed to their limits)
To be fair, Houston and Portland were the two worst D's in the entire playoffs and bottom 10 in the league (and their perimeter D was the main culprit for that). Klay has issues generating his own shot and is definitely best fit as a #2/3 in an offense that can get him looks (and he does get a 1st-option level of shots somehow). I actually can't think of a better role for either of them to showcase their abilities. It's definitely a symbiotic relationship. KD is really the only one who screws up the offense at times when he gets ISO happy, but as we saw in G3 it can also prove highly valuable.

FOXHOUND
06-11-2018, 04:23 PM
I have covered the numbers before but look at 2016 Klay when Curry was out in the playoffs after game 1 rockets and came back up 2-1 against portland (they were great even for a legit #1). Klay killed it as the first option in the playoffs with a 5-2 record essentially without Curry and Green as the 2nd best player. Small sample but you get to there not being enough touches for him in the league etc. so you seem to get the point. If his skills weren't redundant and they didn't have 2 MVP players who also score in volume (and high efficiency 3) he would be going off more with these types of numbers. That's the point, that is part of the proof that he is redundant is that he went from elite numbers in a 1 role to role player numbers in this role. He isn't being maximized but his spacing (what 3/d role players provide) is still more elite than a role player sure.

I mean doesn't it make sense that if Green is maximized here then he is bringing things that aren't redundant? Klay isn't maximized because he is. I think the raw stats would be better if he were using his best skills to score more etc. instead of being used more as the spacer for the other two to do damage (even you get at there not being enough ball to go around, because they are redundant to an extent). A 3/d player would hurt their scoring a bit but right now Curry's numbers have also suffered from sharing more etc. so they have the star power to possibly still pick that up (and then we actually could see them tested some individually tbh, right now imo it is clear they aren't being pushed to their limits)

Right, I get what you're saying and you're definitely right in the sense that Klay would be scoring more if he were a 2nd option, but at the same time there is no better microwave catch and shoot player in the NBA. Even in his limited role, Klay will still have his moments where he quickly drops 9 points and helps explode the game wide open. Your average 3 and D player is not doing that, or at least not in the same universe of frequency as Klay can do even next to three ball handlers in Durant, Curry and Draymond.

On the flip side, my point was that Draymond is maximized at the expense of the others to an extent. They let him do as much as he does to give him value offensively, IMO, while the three are elite off the ball players regardless. It would change things offensively, but that goes to my point that there would be many more possessions/ball time to go around. In that space you would have Durant and Curry pick up the playmaking slack and Klay would get to do more again. And honestly I think a lot of their reads out of the post aren't that difficult because they're hitting Curry, Klay and Durant. Their offense doesn't get much worse when Draymond is off the court, dropping just 1 point per 100 possessions.

Or think of it this way - Draymond has some great skills for right now. I think his assists are definitely heavily inflated due to their system and passing to 3 of the best off ball players in the NBA/of all time, but obviously he's a very good passer for a big regardless. Klay though is simply one of the greatest shooters ever. Like top 2-5 greatest shooters ever. You just can't replace that. There's no one who can give you the insane efficiency on volume over years and consistently hit the shots with such little time and space like he does while virtually never needing the ball otherwise.

This year you can look at someone like Joe Ingles as someone who came fairly close, hitting the same 44% clip on a very high 5.7 3PA a game. It's not the 7.1 3PA that Klay took, and his 11.5 PPG on a team that really had no 2nd option - especially once Hood was trade - vs Klay's 20 PPG despite being with Durant and Curry leaves a lot to be desired. Ingles is a pretty solid defender too, but a 3/4 as opposed to Klay being able to guard 1-3 and sometimes 4, which does a lot to help Curry. Ingles is a really good passer though, so he has that clear advantage.

I think it's just in their bones. So much of what they do is possible because of how much scoring they get from just those three players. They currently don't have to worry that Draymond is going to give you only 8-9 and same for Iggy despite playing all those minutes because those three are giving you 72+ a night.

To replace Klay's scoring in that role you have to look at guys like Love and Bosh who did next to those duos, and you know you're talking about guys who were All-NBA players as franchise players. For Draymond? I mean any really strong defensive big is going to mostly cover him, IMO. That's not easy to find either, but it's something Jordan Bell could realistically develop into just like Draymond did.

mngopher35
06-11-2018, 04:28 PM
To be fair, Houston and Portland were the two worst D's in the entire playoffs and bottom 10 in the league (and their perimeter D was the main culprit for that). Klay has issues generating his own shot and is definitely best fit as a #2/3 in an offense that can get him looks (and he gets a 1st-option level of shots somehow). I actually can't think of a better role for either of them to showcase their abilities.

I mean sure it wasn't great defense but we are talking legitimate #1 numbers to what I posted haha. You don't need to think he can be that number one to see that he is still a bit redundant now on GS but there is at least an example out there. I agree in that 2/3 role he was great playing off Curry/Green. Now KD is there and he has become more redundant, especially in comparison to Green.

His skillset would allow him in the right situation to be a #1 option. This would need to be loaded and have a Green type big probably with a real pg but the point is even in the playoffs we have seen a snapshot of what could be. On a championship team I agree that 2nd guy off of a creator is best suited for him far moreso than being a first option. He does have limitations for sure but there is no denying that he isn't being maximized either due to KD and pushing him further down on priority etc. on this team now.

Scoots
06-11-2018, 04:32 PM
I agree Klay isn't being maximized by the system. It's more Klay trying to maximize his impact within the system.

mngopher35
06-11-2018, 04:37 PM
Right, I get what you're saying and you're definitely right in the sense that Klay would be scoring more if he were a 2nd option, but at the same time there is no better microwave catch and shoot player in the NBA. Even in his limited role, Klay will still have his moments where he quickly drops 9 points and helps explode the game wide open. Your average 3 and D player is not doing that, or at least not in the same universe of frequency as Klay can do even next to three ball handlers in Durant, Curry and Draymond.

On the flip side, my point was that Draymond is maximized at the expense of the others to an extent. They let him do as much as he does to give him value offensively, IMO, while the three are elite off the ball players regardless. It would change things offensively, but that goes to my point that there would be many more possessions/ball time to go around. In that space you would have Durant and Curry pick up the playmaking slack and Klay would get to do more again. And honestly I think a lot of their reads out of the post aren't that difficult because they're hitting Curry, Klay and Durant. Their offense doesn't get much worse when Draymond is off the court, dropping just 1 point per 100 possessions.

Or think of it this way - Draymond has some great skills for right now. I think his assists are definitely heavily inflated due to their system and passing to 3 of the best off ball players in the NBA/of all time, but obviously he's a very good passer for a big regardless. Klay though is simply one of the greatest shooters ever. Like top 2-5 greatest shooters ever. You just can't replace that. There's no one who can give you the insane efficiency on volume over years and consistently hit the shots with such little time and space like he does while virtually never needing the ball otherwise.

This year you can look at someone like Joe Ingles as someone who came fairly close, hitting the same 44% clip on a very high 5.7 3PA a game. It's not the 7.1 3PA that Klay took, and his 11.5 PPG on a team that really had no 2nd option - especially once Hood was trade - vs Klay's 20 PPG despite being with Durant and Curry leaves a lot to be desired. Ingles is a pretty solid defender too, but a 3/4 as opposed to Klay being able to guard 1-3 and sometimes 4, which does a lot to help Curry. Ingles is a really good passer though, so he has that clear advantage.

I think it's just in their bones. So much of what they do is possible because of how much scoring they get from just those three players. They currently don't have to worry that Draymond is going to give you only 8-9 and same for Iggy despite playing all those minutes because those three are giving you 72+ a night.

To replace Klay's scoring in that role you have to look at guys like Love and Bosh who did next to those duos, and you know you're talking about guys who were All-NBA players as franchise players. For Draymond? I mean any really strong defensive big is going to mostly cover him, IMO. That's not easy to find either, but it's something Jordan Bell could realistically develop into just like Draymond did.

Yes, like I said he is still a better version of 3/d due to what you mention but he still is used more in that way is the point. That is because his talents aren't as needed/are redundant. He's not your average one but him in just more of that role than the 2nd star is due to being redundant now.

Yup but this is what makes Green a bit special in GS too is how he fits and is maximized by these other players/system. Offense isn't the key for him either though haha they don't have anything like a DPOY big man without him bringing near the same versatility. That's what makes him especially needed and not nearly as redundant.

We fully agree on some of this offensive talent and who is helping who but the reasons why is because one is more redundant than the other. Klay is the one that is more hindered individually in this offense due to being redundant AND he doesn't bring the same DPOY/big man versatility that GS doesn't have outside Green. In 2016 Curry/Green/Durant all were doing more on the offensive end production wise than last year. There is room for them to help pick up some of the slack so while a role player might be closer to 10 ppg if you just look at the differences from now to when they weren't all loaded up together we see they likely have the skill to be ok. Sure there would be a bit of a drop off still but it isn't quite like losing the anchor on the other side of the ball that gives you matchup advantages etc. and we see all that in the impact numbers currently.

The thing is those other teams you mentioned did have some redundant issues too. It was pointed out by tons when Miami joined up. This team has an extra star haha. Draymond/Klay is basically the perfect compliments to a #1 you could ask for (scoring/spacing/playmaking/versatility/defense) but now you can just KD in where Thompson is and it's even better! They bring enough similar things etc. that it is just a better version.

Saddletramp
06-11-2018, 05:09 PM
Gotta even it up somehow. Or should teams in states that have no state tax be the only ones with inherit advantages?

If you some how think the two are the same...... One of your dumber posts.

FOXHOUND
06-11-2018, 05:20 PM
Yes, like I said he is still a better version of 3/d due to what you mention but he still is used more in that way is the point. That is because his talents aren't as needed/are redundant. He's not your average one but him in just more of that role than the 2nd star is due to being redundant now.

Yup but this is what makes Green a bit special in GS too is how he fits and is maximized by these other players/system. Offense isn't the key for him either though haha they don't have anything like a DPOY big man without him bringing near the same versatility. That's what makes him especially needed and not nearly as redundant.

We fully agree on some of this offensive talent and who is helping who but the reasons why is because one is more redundant than the other. Klay is the one that is more hindered individually in this offense due to being redundant AND he doesn't bring the same DPOY/big man versatility that GS doesn't have outside Green. In 2016 Curry/Green/Durant all were doing more on the offensive end production wise than last year. There is room for them to help pick up some of the slack so while a role player might be closer to 10 ppg if you just look at the differences from now to when they weren't all loaded up together we see they likely have the skill to be ok. Sure there would be a bit of a drop off still but it isn't quite like losing the anchor on the other side of the ball that gives you matchup advantages etc. and we see all that in the impact numbers currently.

The thing is those other teams you mentioned did have some redundant issues too. It was pointed out by tons when Miami joined up. This team has an extra star haha. Draymond/Klay is basically the perfect compliments to a #1 you could ask for (scoring/spacing/playmaking/versatility/defense) but now you can just KD in where Thompson is and it's even better! They bring enough similar things etc. that it is just a better version.

I mostly agree with you, I just think they would survive better without Draymond than Klay. They would be different, of course, but I think the other parts are easier to replace.

Part of that is the fact that Klay has the capability to do more where as Draymond is very much maxed out. That may sound backwards but situation wise it makes sense. What if there's a big injury, like Curry just had? Or just having rotations where Klay gets moments to be on his own or one of two out there, and that keeps your offense at a crazy high level for 48 minutes. Games where there's foul trouble to Durant or Curry, same concept. Etc.

On the flip side, who you bring in to replace Draymond will have all of those elements that help maximize him, therefore they will be better there than they would be on another team. You can basically ignore his offensive contributions, because like we said those aren't really why he's there and there's three guys on the team who are far better offensive players anyways.

Yes those teams in Miami and Cleveland had redundant issues, but ultimately you're talking about guys who were All-NBA players on their own. My point was that Klay is in the role and position that those guys were in, where as I don't think Draymond would be an All-NBA player if he wasn't on the Warriors. Klay? It's possible, but I'm not sure he does enough rebounding and passing wise to be up there. But on this type of team, he's in their shoes.

The thing to remember is that the Warriors were always constructed this way, they just had Harrison Barnes in Klay's current position and Klay was in Durant's. You can look at the 2016 Finals and WCF as clear potential issues of going back to that sort of setup. Barnes on the Warriors was an 11 PPG scorer and on Dallas became an 18-20 PPG scorer the very next season. That's what I mean by undervaluing Klay's scoring on this team. It's easy to look at it and think yeah, maybe if they had Gary Harris he could do a close enough job? Orrr maybe Gary Harris in that spot in scoring 13-14 PPG instead of the 17-18 that he did this year? All of sudden you just dropped 6-7 PPG from Klay's 20 and for any team that's a very big deal.

Saddletramp
06-11-2018, 05:22 PM
In case it needs to be spelled out for you, those players (and frankly your team) does not matter to the NBA. These are All Stars and have implications of how a dynasty will progress, which in turn colors how the entire league will progress.

The owners are getting a $300 million dollar 30 year loan (interest free) this summer from personal-seat-licenses at the new arena. And their sales as is on a global level are astronomical. They reportedly made $130 million on their 11 home playoff games this year alone. If they want to keep everyone, they have the means.

Yeah, everyone that says that they’ll need to eventually let someone go just doesn’t understand how much money they’re taking in and how much of an ego guys like Lacob have. They’ll pay whatever they need to keep it together. I seriously think the league should have a luxury cap at some point because how can any other team compete with that? War said earlier that season tickets might be as high as $500,000 and those tech guys just **** that amount of money out a week. This money stuff is just ridiculous.

mngopher35
06-11-2018, 05:40 PM
I mostly agree with you, I just think they would survive better without Draymond than Klay. They would be different, of course, but I think the other parts are easier to replace.

Part of that is the fact that Klay has the capability to do more where as Draymond is very much maxed out. That may sound backwards but situation wise it makes sense. What if there's a big injury, like Curry just had? Or just having rotations where Klay gets moments to be on his own or one of two out there, and that keeps your offense at a crazy high level for 48 minutes. Games where there's foul trouble to Durant or Curry, same concept. Etc.

On the flip side, who you bring in to replace Draymond will have all of those elements that help maximize him, therefore they will be better there than they would be on another team. You can basically ignore his offensive contributions, because like we said those aren't really why he's there and there's three guys on the team who are far better offensive players anyways.

Yes those teams in Miami and Cleveland had redundant issues, but ultimately you're talking about guys who were All-NBA players on their own. My point was that Klay is in the role and position that those guys were in, where as I don't think Draymond would be an All-NBA player if he wasn't on the Warriors. Klay? It's possible, but I'm not sure he does enough rebounding and passing wise to be up there. But on this type of team, he's in their shoes.

The thing to remember is that the Warriors were always constructed this way, they just had Harrison Barnes in Klay's current position and Klay was in Durant's. You can look at the 2016 Finals and WCF as clear potential issues of going back to that sort of setup. Barnes on the Warriors was an 11 PPG scorer and on Dallas became an 18-20 PPG scorer the very next season. That's what I mean by undervaluing Klay's scoring on this team. It's easy to look at it and think yeah, maybe if they had Gary Harris he could do a close enough job? Orrr maybe Gary Harris in that spot in scoring 13-14 PPG instead of the 17-18 that he did this year? All of sudden you just dropped 6-7 PPG from Klay's 20 and for any team that's a very big deal.

Ya I disagree but even so Klay is still currently more redundant skills wise etc. That is the exact reason Klay can do more but isn't. I think it would be fair to say Klay is more talented or you would pick him first to lead a team etc. but this specific team like I have been saying is different.

Sure if they have a big injury to Curry/Durant those redundancies disapear a bit but that furthers my point. Klay is better offensively and can carry more of a load, he isn't doing that because his skills are redundant with Curry/KD rn. I agree and have been saying that but that isn't the convo and the reason he isn't now is being a bit redundant. He is capable of more the redundant skills/talent make him less useful and impactful as the numbers show.

I think you partially underrate what Green brings probably because it is on the defensive end. He is one of the best defenders in the league and much of this stuff you are talking about in comparison to Klay is the extra he brings (whereas for Klay his defense is the extra part).

6-7 ppg is like the difference between what Curry/Green did pre Durant to what they put up this season haha. Durant is better than Klay as well and that initial trio was fine offensively. Like I said I get they drop off some but they have players/talents capable of picking it up on that end especially with KD now. They just don't have anything like the DPOY anchor/versatility/spacing and passing from a big man like Green in nearly the same way. What you mean to say is that for most teams it would be a big deal, this isn't most teams.

Scoots
06-11-2018, 06:44 PM
Yeah, everyone that says that they’ll need to eventually let someone go just doesn’t understand how much money they’re taking in and how much of an ego guys like Lacob have. They’ll pay whatever they need to keep it together. I seriously think the league should have a luxury cap at some point because how can any other team compete with that? War said earlier that season tickets might be as high as $500,000 and those tech guys just **** that amount of money out a week. This money stuff is just ridiculous.

Sounds like the real answer is 100% revenue sharing where the economical advantages and disadvantages of every team are equalized. Share ALL of the money and give breaks for cost of living differences by location so Texas/Florida tax advantages are equalized too. Then it would be "fair" ... even though there will still be teams that do better than others year after year.

FOXHOUND
06-11-2018, 08:39 PM
What you mean to say is that for most teams it would be a big deal, this isn't most teams.

Uhhh, no what I meant to say is what I said. :laugh2:

Obviously how you view Klay and Draymond is going to influence what you think on this. I just personally think that Draymond wouldn't be who he is on any other team, where as the other three would be. And no, it has nothing to do with undervaluing defense - I'm the complete opposite on that in general lol.

I don't think it would be to the same extent, but an example off the top of my head would be Tayshaun Prince. When Detroit was at their peak and he had the Wallace's behind him he was an elite defender. Once that foundation was gone he had some flaws badly exposed and fell off a cliff on that end.

In short, I think that Golden State's system and foundation does a lot of propping up of Draymond on both ends, although much more severely on the offensive end. And yes, that would be still be a big deal for this team. It would be the difference between beating Houston and not beating Houston, for example.

mngopher35
06-11-2018, 09:21 PM
Uhhh, no what I meant to say is what I said. :laugh2:

Obviously how you view Klay and Draymond is going to influence what you think on this. I just personally think that Draymond wouldn't be who he is on any other team, where as the other three would be. And no, it has nothing to do with undervaluing defense - I'm the complete opposite on that in general lol.

I don't think it would be to the same extent, but an example off the top of my head would be Tayshaun Prince. When Detroit was at their peak and he had the Wallace's behind him he was an elite defender. Once that foundation was gone he had some flaws badly exposed and fell off a cliff on that end.

In short, I think that Golden State's system and foundation does a lot of propping up of Draymond on both ends, although much more severely on the offensive end. And yes, that would be still be a big deal for this team. It would be the difference between beating Houston and not beating Houston, for example.

Haha I guess so. Well I will just say we have literally seen them put up those numbers efficiently/winning IRL so saying they can't or would struggle seems crazy to me, especially considering they add Durant too here. Those points wouldn't be tough to come by if you believe they are capable of playing like they have in the past and Durant is at least as good as Klay.

Yes Draymond is propped up on the offensive end. His main value is at the defensive end. This is the key thing that separates them is he is the anchor to the other side of the ball. An example of this would be looking at Utah without Gobert and then with him this year. Now he can definitely be argued as a better defender but Green does bring things he doesn't offensively to help negate that. We can go in circles for days about examples that have happened with other similar players etc. though this was just to counter yours.

I think the system benefits everyone but if anything Draymond props them up on the defensive end more than any other player. Thats the key and why they can't lose him he is the anchor on one side while being maximized on the other due to Curry/KD and even Klay. He brings something completely different AND is maximized in the area he has good secondary skills but couldn't carry a load (which they have 2 players who can). Klay isn't a top 2 on either side of the ball for them in that same way and if he were gone it doesn't create that gap anywhere.

TrueFan420
06-11-2018, 11:15 PM
Sounds like the real answer is 100% revenue sharing where the economical advantages and disadvantages of every team are equalized. Share ALL of the money and give breaks for cost of living differences by location so Texas/Florida tax advantages are equalized too. Then it would be "fair" ... even though there will still be teams that do better than others year after year.

How do you make Dolan smarter? The NBA might need to start handing out lobotomies.

Scoots
06-11-2018, 11:16 PM
Curry, KD, Klay, and Green all want to stay, the front office and owners want them to stay. The only question is what the two sides can work out. I suspect that KD, Klay, and Green re-up. It's possible they leave significant money on the table when they do. But there are no guarantees of course.

Scoots
06-11-2018, 11:18 PM
How do you make Dolan smarter? The NBA might need to start handing out lobotomies.

You can't.

I actually suggested in the past that the best way to stop tanking of lottery teams would be to only allow owners to attend half the number of games their team won the previous year. I've never seen a team win with regularity with bad owners, maybe the best way to get rid of the owners is to make it less fun.

TrueFan420
06-11-2018, 11:28 PM
You can't.

I actually suggested in the past that the best way to stop tanking of lottery teams would be to only allow owners to attend half the number of games their team won the previous year. I've never seen a team win with regularity with bad owners, maybe the best way to get rid of the owners is to make it less fun.
Eh it will play on their egos which is a good idea but there's a lot of stuff they'll need to do. It won't just be one thing.

mrblisterdundee
06-12-2018, 12:28 AM
Unbelievable! Lacob wants to retain those two? You don’t say.
Don’t worry, they’ll make up that lost income (and then some for taking a sweetheart deal) from Lacob’s buddies in endorsement deals.

Ima create a thread anytime an owner says they're trying to create a player.
Bucks trying to keep Snell and ROY Broggy? thread. Bulls trying to keep Dunn and some scrub? Thread.

The thread was meant to start a discussion on what could happen with Thompson and Green, a couple all-NBA players who will have to surrender tens of millions to keep the band together. Bob Myers just told some reporters he would give Durant "whatever he wants." I don't really see what you're busting my balls over.

nastynice
06-12-2018, 01:22 AM
If you some how think the two are the same...... One of your dumber posts.

Haha :hi5:

Chapin78
06-12-2018, 07:12 AM
This has been an interesting thread I agree with several post. Just to throw this out there but what do you think that Klay or Green could get in a trade for the Warriors? This is just straight hypothetical to the Warriors paying them and being way over the lux tax or Lacob trying to make it seem as if he wouldn't want to let Klay or Green go to drive up the price. The Warriors could land a huge haul for Green and Klay even more.

FOXHOUND
06-12-2018, 07:21 AM
Haha I guess so. Well I will just say we have literally seen them put up those numbers efficiently/winning IRL so saying they can't or would struggle seems crazy to me, especially considering they add Durant too here. Those points wouldn't be tough to come by if you believe they are capable of playing like they have in the past and Durant is at least as good as Klay.

Yes Draymond is propped up on the offensive end. His main value is at the defensive end. This is the key thing that separates them is he is the anchor to the other side of the ball. An example of this would be looking at Utah without Gobert and then with him this year. Now he can definitely be argued as a better defender but Green does bring things he doesn't offensively to help negate that. We can go in circles for days about examples that have happened with other similar players etc. though this was just to counter yours.

I think the system benefits everyone but if anything Draymond props them up on the defensive end more than any other player. Thats the key and why they can't lose him he is the anchor on one side while being maximized on the other due to Curry/KD and even Klay. He brings something completely different AND is maximized in the area he has good secondary skills but couldn't carry a load (which they have 2 players who can). Klay isn't a top 2 on either side of the ball for them in that same way and if he were gone it doesn't create that gap anywhere.

Yeah we clearly just view Draymond very differently. I don't view him like Gobert, in this example. Whenever I have watched the Warriors play when he's been out I've never felt the vacuum being as severe as Gobert this season. And yes, of course they would be fine overall and either way haha. They just played in a game 7 though, and Harden wasn't even good that series, so we don't need to pretend that they're some unbeatable force even as is.

To me Klay is the Harden to Draymond's Ibaka, if you will. Durant and WB were perfectly fine without Harden, but they became an extremely top heavy team when it came to scoring and had to rely on people like Dion Waiters for scoring assistance. The wear and tear and fatigue of doing all of that work leads to bad things at the end of the postseason, as we saw in 2016. Losing Ibaka would have hurt as well, but scoring is a premium in the NBA for a reason.

It's a hypothetical scenario so who knows if we'll ever get the answer. It certainly sounds like all parties involved are focused on keeping it from happening though.

TrueFan420
06-12-2018, 09:12 AM
Yeah we clearly just view Draymond very differently. I don't view him like Gobert, in this example. Whenever I have watched the Warriors play when he's been out I've never felt the vacuum being as severe as Gobert this season. And yes, of course they would be fine overall and either way haha. They just played in a game 7 though, and Harden wasn't even good that series, so we don't need to pretend that they're some unbeatable force even as is.

To me Klay is the Harden to Draymond's Ibaka, if you will. Durant and WB were perfectly fine without Harden, but they became an extremely top heavy team when it came to scoring and had to rely on people like Dion Waiters for scoring assistance. The wear and tear and fatigue of doing all of that work leads to bad things at the end of the postseason, as we saw in 2016. Losing Ibaka would have hurt as well, but scoring is a premium in the NBA for a reason.

It's a hypothetical scenario so who knows if we'll ever get the answer. It certainly sounds like all parties involved are focused on keeping it from happening though.

The issue with that analogy is the warriors have an effective offensive system built around Curry. That won't just go away with Klay gone. You could plug a 3 & D guy and the system keeps going smoothly. Just a little less dangerous as Klay is more than JUST a 3 & D.

You take Green and it's much harder to go small. Bell looks legit but he's still a rookie and he can't space out to 3. He can switch onto guards but not nearly as effectively. And largest thing your missing if you let Green go has nothing to do with BBall. He's their vocal leader, he's their coach on the court, he's the heart that gets them going and doesn't let them settle for their talent. That can't be replaced.

Scoots
06-12-2018, 09:41 AM
The Warriors need to keep the crew together while drafting and developing players in their model to replace them. I think they all get another contract and any moves wait a couple more years at least.

mngopher35
06-12-2018, 10:01 AM
Yeah we clearly just view Draymond very differently. I don't view him like Gobert, in this example. Whenever I have watched the Warriors play when he's been out I've never felt the vacuum being as severe as Gobert this season. And yes, of course they would be fine overall and either way haha. They just played in a game 7 though, and Harden wasn't even good that series, so we don't need to pretend that they're some unbeatable force even as is.

To me Klay is the Harden to Draymond's Ibaka, if you will. Durant and WB were perfectly fine without Harden, but they became an extremely top heavy team when it came to scoring and had to rely on people like Dion Waiters for scoring assistance. The wear and tear and fatigue of doing all of that work leads to bad things at the end of the postseason, as we saw in 2016. Losing Ibaka would have hurt as well, but scoring is a premium in the NBA for a reason.

It's a hypothetical scenario so who knows if we'll ever get the answer. It certainly sounds like all parties involved are focused on keeping it from happening though.

Well like I said we could go for days on examples but imo that's far far more realistic than Prince. Gobert/Green impact numbers wise, defensive anchor wise, and All NBA/All star/DPOY wise etc. are much closer together. Same thing with Ibaka. We can just keep coming up with random seperate examples but I feel like at least I was using someone with more similarities in his impact/numbers/awards/talent etc.

Like I mentioned above Ibaka never was quite as impactful or getting those same accolades. Same with Harden/Klay. Statistically on those Thunder teams you could see that Harden was the more impactful player etc in the numbers. You can see that same thing for GREEN on GS, not Klay. That's part of the key to this whole conversation is just how meh some of those impact stats for Klay have become while Green hasn't taken a hit in the same way. Since KD it has made Klay redundant/role player type far more than before and it shows in said impact #'s. Curry as the engine to the offense and Green being a much better playmaker than Ibaka and overall brings a bit more on that side too.

Did I mention OKC was 2nd in offensive rating the year before KD ditched? Haha without GS already in the league that team was still the best offenses in the league even with Ibaka a shell of himself and dion waiters starting. Westy+KD was enough to lead that offense and Curry/Green is definitely better than Westy/Ibaka on that end compared to the 2nd best offense in the NBA (behind only themselves haha).

Like I have been saying with this group and Curry/KD around they would be just fine on the offensive end.

FOXHOUND
06-12-2018, 10:11 AM
The issue with that analogy is the warriors have an effective offensive system built around Curry. That won't just go away with Klay gone. You could plug a 3 & D guy and the system keeps going smoothly. Just a little less dangerous as Klay is more than JUST a 3 & D.

You take Green and it's much harder to go small. Bell looks legit but he's still a rookie and he can't space out to 3. He can switch onto guards but not nearly as effectively. And largest thing your missing if you let Green go has nothing to do with BBall. He's their vocal leader, he's their coach on the court, he's the heart that gets them going and doesn't let them settle for their talent. That can't be replaced.

Well of course, they're not going away as long as they have Durant and Curry no matter what. I think Curry's health is also something to consider though. A normal 3 & D guy could mostly do the job in that full lineup, but you're losing rotation strength not having a three headed machine rotating throughout the game and in the case of a Curry injury you're in deep sh/t lol.

His leadership value is a very good point. I didn't mean to sound so harsh on Draymond, probably sounded like I think he sucks haha. I think it would be a considerable blow either way. I'm also very high on Jordan Bell and wanted my Knicks to draft him, and he did not disappoint, so that's in my mind as well.

FOXHOUND
06-12-2018, 10:42 AM
Well like I said we could go for days on examples but imo that's far far more realistic than Prince. Gobert/Green impact numbers wise, defensive anchor wise, and All NBA/All star/DPOY wise etc. are much closer together. Same thing with Ibaka. We can just keep coming up with random seperate examples but I feel like at least I was using someone with more similarities in his impact/numbers/awards/talent etc.

Like I mentioned above Ibaka never was quite as impactful or getting those same accolades. Same with Harden/Klay. Statistically on those Thunder teams you could see that Harden was the more impactful player etc in the numbers. You can see that same thing for GREEN on GS, not Klay. That's part of the key to this whole conversation is just how meh some of those impact stats for Klay have become while Green hasn't taken a hit in the same way. Since KD it has made Klay redundant/role player type far more than before and it shows in said impact #'s. Curry as the engine to the offense and Green being a much better playmaker than Ibaka and overall brings a bit more on that side too.

Did I mention OKC was 2nd in offensive rating the year before KD ditched? Haha without GS already in the league that team was still the best offenses in the league even with Ibaka a shell of himself and dion waiters starting. Westy+KD was enough to lead that offense and Curry/Green is definitely better than Westy/Ibaka on that end compared to the 2nd best offense in the NBA (behind only themselves haha).

Like I have been saying with this group and Curry/KD around they would be just fine on the offensive end.

Aye, I wasn't making a 1:1 comparison. Draymond is obviously way better than Prince on defense in any scenario. I do think he relies heavily on their foundation to do what he does though due to his size. I think that's the main difference between him and Gobert, in this sense. I don't think Draymond would be quite Draymond if they switched places, but I think Gobert would be even better.

Yes, again not a 1:1 comparison. Klay and Green are obviously much closer in ability than Harden and Ibaka were, but their roles are largely the same. I don't think those advanced stat rate numbers can evaluate Klay's impact for them properly, and those numbers for anyone are largely circumstantial beyond just their own ability.

In the regular season OKC was fine yes, but the playoffs are a different animal and two man offensive teams usually bite the bullet at some point in the western conference gauntlet. We obviously know that OKC did.

They would be just fine on either end either way lol, it's just a matter of which you think is better/would impact them more. We just obviously view each player differently.

mngopher35
06-12-2018, 11:30 AM
Aye, I wasn't making a 1:1 comparison. Draymond is obviously way better than Prince on defense in any scenario. I do think he relies heavily on their foundation to do what he does though due to his size. I think that's the main difference between him and Gobert, in this sense. I don't think Draymond would be quite Draymond if they switched places, but I think Gobert would be even better.

Yes, again not a 1:1 comparison. Klay and Green are obviously much closer in ability than Harden and Ibaka were, but their roles are largely the same. I don't think those advanced stat rate numbers can evaluate Klay's impact for them properly, and those numbers for anyone are largely circumstantial beyond just their own ability.

In the regular season OKC was fine yes, but the playoffs are a different animal and two man offensive teams usually bite the bullet at some point in the western conference gauntlet. We obviously know that OKC did.

They would be just fine on either end either way lol, it's just a matter of which you think is better/would impact them more. We just obviously view each player differently.

I mean overall I don't disagree too much but Dray is better for their offense with his skill set. Gobert could add some on D/size but Green brings some offensively he couldn't to counter. The whole small ball/spacing out etc. is because of Green and his versatility so that isn't a big knock at all imo that he is different.

The point is even your comparison here has the numbers showing Harden/Green as more impactful. That's another part of what makes the comparison not work is that while you can argue similar roles for these guys the impact Klay/Green have had has been really different. I agree the stats don't measure everything he is doing or capable of but again another major factor for him is being redundant due to KD. He is no longer the top scorer off Curry he is after KD and he needs to space for Curry/KD/Green to be effective etc. like a role player far more often now.

In the playoffs the team that beat them was with Curry as the engine and Green as the defensive anchor with Klay as a good 2nd option haha. If KD simply plays well to close out the final 3 games he could easily have won a title that year in OKC due to a great offense. They had a 108.8 ORTG against the Warriors just slightly above them actually despite losing the series (again it was that close KD nor Westy stepped up though that's all). Cleveland had a 109 ortg so they won a title with very similar production and again this is with Westy/KD "choking in a sense.

The point is they would actually have a hole to cover on defense and might not be ok. They have no anchor on defense then. Offense without Klay they have 2 MVP's still so it's easy but this is a major whole in an area they aren't redundant (no other DPOY big man). I have simply been responding to your point of it being tough for them to cover up like 7 points from Klay etc. on that end when the reality is they could easily have the best offense in the league still with Curry/KD/Dray. The other side of the ball that hasn't really been covered is the key thing that makes Green not redundant and Klay doesn't have any quality/impact like that on O where Curry/KD can't cover.

zookman65
06-17-2018, 08:41 AM
Push comes to shove, keep Draymond over Klay. Draymond is a poor man's LeBron.
I could see Draymond being chill with an extension, but not Klay. Time will tell.

Poor mans LeBron? LOL More like a poor mans Rodman on rebounding and defense but with a better outside shot than Rodman

BKLYNpigeon
06-17-2018, 09:02 AM
Poor mans LeBron? LOL More like a poor mans Rodman on rebounding and defense but with a better outside shot than Rodman

Draymond is a much more versatile defender then Rodman. He the QB on defense, always talking and communicating with his teammmates. He’s also an excellent help defender and can guard 1-5. That’s what Lebron used to do 5 years ago, before conserving energy.

What sets draymond apart from a lot of big men is his floor vision and being able to handle the ball like a guard.

BKLYNpigeon
06-17-2018, 09:05 AM
The warriors will have this Superteam for 2 more years. I don’t expect the warriors to trade him at all when draymond declines the extensions. Expect Draymond to enter free agency. He will find his true value, ask the warriors to match.

Heediot
06-17-2018, 10:22 AM
Draymond is a much more versatile defender then Rodman. He the QB on defense, always talking and communicating with his teammmates. He’s also an excellent help defender and can guard 1-5. That’s what Lebron used to do 5 years ago, before conserving energy.

What sets draymond apart from a lot of big men is his floor vision and being able to handle the ball like a guard.

I don't know about much more versatile. Rodman was one of the best perimeter defenders when he was younger. One of the top interior defenders as he aged. Strong as **** for his size. Uncanny rebounding instincts. This guy was one of the most instinctive players ever both on d and on the glass. I think his feel and iq would make him a good help defender if needed. He wasn't a shot blocker, as Draymond isn't as well, but the guy could still man the paint and hold his own.