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View Full Version : NBA All-Time Redraft Playoffs 1st Round (Seaside Seagulls v Team RR)



valade16
06-07-2018, 04:54 PM
Every year Members of PSD participate in a draft of all players all-time in an attempt to make the best team possible and win in a playoff determined by fellow members of PSD.

This years rules included being able to only start 2 players from the 00's and 1 from the 70's and earlier.

Look over the two teams and vote on which team you think would win in a 7 game series. The top team has home-court advantage for this series.

Seaside Seagulls - Homecourt Advantage

PG: Steph Curry 38 | Norm Van Lier 10
SG: Clyde Drexler 38 | Steve Smith 10
SF: Billy Cunningham 24 | Mark Aguirre 24
PF: Karl Malone 38 | Antawn Jamison 10
C: Tyson Chandler 36 | LaMarcus Aldridge 12

v

PG: Oscar Robertson - Mike Conley
SG: Penny Hardaway - Hersey Hawkins
SF: Tracy McGrady - Khris Middleton
PF: Horace Grant - Andrei Kirilenko
C: Dwight Howard - Joakim Noah

Rivera
06-07-2018, 05:06 PM
not gonna lie, Team RR has my heart to win it all. as one of the few Orlando Magic fans on the board. 4 former Orlando Magic players in their starting line up. thats going to be a tough team to beat. Length, athletiscm, defense, 2 #1 scorers, 2 lock down defenders in the paint. Love team RR

valade16
06-07-2018, 05:13 PM
Tyson held Dwight to 15.5 PPG regular season (13.6 PPG playoffs)

Karl Malone scored 25.4 PPG on 49% FG regular season (30.6 PPG 59% playoffs) vs Horace Grant (7.5 PPG regular season, 4.8 PPG playoffs).

Rivera
06-07-2018, 05:41 PM
Tyson held Dwight to 15.5 PPG regular season (13.6 PPG playoffs)

Karl Malone scored 25.4 PPG on 49% FG regular season (30.6 PPG 59% playoffs) vs Horace Grant (7.5 PPG regular season, 4.8 PPG playoffs).

yea but Horrace or Dwight arent scorers or #1/#2 options. They are at there best when they are just defending and in Dwights case rebounding (off the top of my head dont remember how good/bad Horrace was on the boards)

They are running their offense through their 3 guards who all are unselfish and they are going to open up the pick and pop for Horrace as well as the alley oops to Dwight

you dont need offense from either, just defense and rebounding

and I love the length of O/Penny/Tmac on the perimeter, its going to be a tough team to beat

valade16
06-07-2018, 05:56 PM
yea but Horrace or Dwight arent scorers or #1/#2 options. They are at there best when they are just defending and in Dwights case rebounding (off the top of my head dont remember how good/bad Horrace was on the boards)

They are running their offense through their 3 guards who all are unselfish and they are going to open up the pick and pop for Horace as well as the alley oops to Dwight

you dont need offense from either, just defense and rebounding

and I love the length of O/Penny/Tmac on the perimeter, its going to be a tough team to beat

That's good, because they're going to get 0 offense from them.

Yes, he has 3 guys who can score well (Big O, Penny and T-Mac); so do I. So does almost everybody in this game. Saying "It's ok if 3/5 of my starters provide zero offense" is not good in a game where almost every player can provide offense.

I think Curry/Malone/Clyde could outscore T-Mac/Big O/Penny and that still leaves me with multiple other scoring options (Cunningham, Aguirre, LMA, etc.). If his big 3 aren't providing offense, who does he turn to?

Redrum187
06-08-2018, 12:00 AM
Tyson held Dwight to 15.5 PPG regular season (13.6 PPG playoffs)

Karl Malone scored 25.4 PPG on 49% FG regular season (30.6 PPG 59% playoffs) vs Horace Grant (7.5 PPG regular season, 4.8 PPG playoffs).

You're using career numbers in head-to-head as opposed to peak numbers. In Dwight's peak, he scored 19.5 points per game, grabbing 14.7 rebounds per game. Tyson Chandler maintained a consistent peak longer than Dwight did, so we can safely assume Chandler's head-to-head numbers during Dwight's peak would be identical as well (meaning, Chandler wasn't really better or worse in 08-09, 09-10, 10-11 than whichever years you plan to use his peak). I could even make a case they share the same peak which would give a better illustration of how Tyson Chandler got obliterated by Dwight Howard.

So for the sake of anecdotally using a different 3-year peak, let's just use the same numbers Tyson Chandler got when he faced Dwight Howard... Chandler averaged a whopping 6.7 ppg and 4.3 rpg.


2008-2009 season to 2010-2011 season

Dwight Howard: 19.5 ppg (TS% 57.5), 14.7 rpg, 1.2 stl, 1.8 blk
Tyson Chandler: 6.7 ppg, 4.3 rpg, 0.3 stl, 0.7 blk, 4.5 fouls

What the eye test in real life and these numbers confirm is that Dwight Howard was too big and strong to be contained by Tyson Chandler. Even using Valade's career (as oppose to peak numbers), Howard grabs 12.2 rpg to Chandler's 7.6 rpg. It's for exactly this reason Tyson Chandler either fouled out or was really close to fouling out whenever he went up against Howard. Averaging 4.5 fouls per game in their matchup when Chandler only plays 25-27 minutes a game as it is would be crippling for Valade, seeing as Lamarcus Aldridge is his backup center. Aldridge is a guy who explicitly stated he hates playing center and guarding the other bigs... now he's forced to have to bang with someone a lot bigger than he is accustom to.

As for Karl Malone, I don't just have Horace Grant to throw at him defensively. Along with Horace and his 4x All Defensive Teams, I would definitely throw Dwight Howard (3x DPOY) and Joakim Noah (DPOY) at him. Basically, Karl Malone won't ever get a break on offense. Malone will definitely get his points as he's arguably a top 5 power-foward, but he's going to have to work for it going against the defensive juggernauts listed.

GREATNESS ONE
06-08-2018, 12:03 AM
https://goo.gl/images/A6DbDc

GREATNESS ONE
06-08-2018, 12:24 AM
The perimeter defense for SSS is pretty bad to try and stop a offense trio of McGrady/BigO/Penny, I think other way around they can maintain defensively vs Curry/Drexler/Cunningham? I just can't see Drexler responding to the challenge of trying to stop a offensive trio of the Big O, Magic Show. Curry will go off? Against Big O? man, I would ****ing love it lol, some of these matchups just make me smile because what if you know? Malone vs Howard would be epic fun as the duo would bang down low often with a counter punch mate. This in real life would be a fun ****ing series.

Redrum187
06-08-2018, 12:31 AM
That's good, because they're going to get 0 offense from them.

Yes, he has 3 guys who can score well (Big O, Penny and T-Mac); so do I. So does almost everybody in this game. Saying "It's ok if 3/5 of my starters provide zero offense" is not good in a game where almost every player can provide offense.

I think Curry/Malone/Clyde could outscore T-Mac/Big O/Penny and that still leaves me with multiple other scoring options (Cunningham, Aguirre, LMA, etc.). If his big 3 aren't providing offense, who does he turn to?

If your big 3 aren't providing offense, who do you turn to? Outside my big 3 scoring options, Dwight Howard posterized Tyson Chandler (19.5 ppg), Hersey Hawkins (20.4 ppg), Khris Middleton (18.5 ppg), Mike Conley (17.3 ppg), Andrei Kirilenko (15.8 ppg), and Horace Grant (14.1 ppg).

It's a bit of a moot point I'm making though... Seeing as Stephen Curry will absolutely get torched defending a bigger Oscar Robertson. And while Drexler is an All Time great shooting-guard, he wasn't a defensive juggernaut (he was about average). What I really find to be a devastating matchup for Team Valade is Billy Cunningham against Tracy McGrady. Cunningham was a 6'6 power-foward/small-foward who wasn't known to be a defensive stopper. Being shorter and slower will hinder their team's defense... and this isn't even mentioning Cunningham requiring 20+ shots to score 24 points in his 3 year peak (yikes).

So on Valade's starting lineup, he has a PF/SF who jacked up 20+ shots to get 24 points and Tyson Chandler who averaged 6.7 ppg against Dwight Howard. Going by shot attempts, Billy Cunningham is tied with Clyde Drexler as his number 1 option...

Redrum187
06-08-2018, 12:42 AM
I'm reformatting my computer but I'll post a write-up asap. I just want to mention that I have 2 DPOY players as well as a 4x All Defensive Team player to throw at his best (or 2nd best) player in Karl Malone. Big O, Penny, and TMac were all great defenders in their prime who would slow and make life a little harder for Curry and Drexler. When I sub in players from the bench, the defense and shooting gets even deadlier. Conley was considered the 2nd best defensive PG (behind CP3) during his peak, AK47 was a multiple time All Defensive Team player as well who was an excellent shot blocker. Khris Middleton is also no slouch on defense. And of course there is Hersey Hawkins... you know... the guy the Seahawks put on Michael Jordan instead of Gary Payton in a playoff game because he was shown he was capable of giving him fits.

I don't even really want to do a write up about how to limit Billy Cunningham's offense... I want to entice him to jack up shots like he did in real life and be Valade's true #1 scoring option.

Dunkapolooza
06-08-2018, 06:15 AM
I would argue that the seagulls have the best three players in this match up...

valade16
06-08-2018, 08:33 AM
You're using career numbers in head-to-head as opposed to peak numbers. In Dwight's peak, he scored 19.5 points per game, grabbing 14.7 rebounds per game. Tyson Chandler maintained a consistent peak longer than Dwight did, so we can safely assume Chandler's head-to-head numbers during Dwight's peak would be identical as well (meaning, Chandler wasn't really better or worse in 08-09, 09-10, 10-11 than whichever years you plan to use his peak). I could even make a case they share the same peak which would give a better illustration of how Tyson Chandler got obliterated by Dwight Howard.

So for the sake of anecdotally using a different 3-year peak, let's just use the same numbers Tyson Chandler got when he faced Dwight Howard... Chandler averaged a whopping 6.7 ppg and 4.3 rpg.

What the eye test in real life and these numbers confirm is that Dwight Howard was too big and strong to be contained by Tyson Chandler. Even using Valade's career (as oppose to peak numbers), Howard grabs 12.2 rpg to Chandler's 7.6 rpg. It's for exactly this reason Tyson Chandler either fouled out or was really close to fouling out whenever he went up against Howard. Averaging 4.5 fouls per game in their matchup when Chandler only plays 25-27 minutes a game as it is would be crippling for Valade, seeing as Lamarcus Aldridge is his backup center. Aldridge is a guy who explicitly stated he hates playing center and guarding the other bigs... now he's forced to have to bang with someone a lot bigger than he is accustom to.

As for Karl Malone, I don't just have Horace Grant to throw at him defensively. Along with Horace and his 4x All Defensive Teams, I would definitely throw Dwight Howard (3x DPOY) and Joakim Noah (DPOY) at him. Basically, Karl Malone won't ever get a break on offense. Malone will definitely get his points as he's arguably a top 5 power-foward, but he's going to have to work for it going against the defensive juggernauts listed.

The reason you want to use 09-11 is because it was only 5 games and thus made his few good performances look even better. If you simply add one year to each end (which was definitely still Dwight's peak) and go from 08-12 you get 16.2 PPG and 12.6 RPG.

As for having to resort to LMA on Dwight, I'd actually love that. Dwight being pulled out to defend LMA's midrange game? Now he's away from the basket, perfect for me. The Rockets put Dwight on LMA in their first round matchup in 2014 and LMA scored 30 PPG in the series.

valade16
06-08-2018, 09:39 AM
If your big 3 aren't providing offense, who do you turn to? Outside my big 3 scoring options, Dwight Howard posterized Tyson Chandler (19.5 ppg), Hersey Hawkins (20.4 ppg), Khris Middleton (18.5 ppg), Mike Conley (17.3 ppg), Andrei Kirilenko (15.8 ppg), and Horace Grant (14.1 ppg).

It's a bit of a moot point I'm making though... Seeing as Stephen Curry will absolutely get torched defending a bigger Oscar Robertson. And while Drexler is an All Time great shooting-guard, he wasn't a defensive juggernaut (he was about average). What I really find to be a devastating matchup for Team Valade is Billy Cunningham against Tracy McGrady. Cunningham was a 6'6 power-foward/small-foward who wasn't known to be a defensive stopper. Being shorter and slower will hinder their team's defense... and this isn't even mentioning Cunningham requiring 20+ shots to score 24 points in his 3 year peak (yikes).

So on Valade's starting lineup, he has a PF/SF who jacked up 20+ shots to get 24 points and Tyson Chandler who averaged 6.7 ppg against Dwight Howard. Going by shot attempts, Billy Cunningham is tied with Clyde Drexler as his number 1 option...

Far more than you:

Mark Aguirre 26.0 PPG > Hersey Hawkins 20.4 PPG
Billy Cunningham 24.1 > Khris Middleton 18.5 PPG
LaMarucs Aldridge 22.5 PPG > Mike Conley 17.3 PPG
Antawn Jamison 22.3 PPG > Dwight Howard 16.2 PPG
Steve Smith 19.8 PPG > Andrei Kirilenko 15.8 PPG
Horace Grant 14.1 PPG

Literally every single one of my guys when matched up by scoring against yours scores more than yours. So my team has far more offense.

And for all the crap about my perimeter D, yours is no better. Big O, T-Mac and Penny were never standout defenders.

And as for Cunningham's scoring, he already showed he can be a complimentary piece on a championship team when he was on the 76ers, where he shot significantly less than 24 shots a game. So your main argument against my offense is that my 4th/5th scoring option is inefficient.

OK, but your 1st scoring option is inefficient. Tracy McGrady's career TS% is .519. He only has 1 season in his entire career over .535 TS%. He is super inefficient, and he's your #1 scorer.

So you have T-Mac scoring 30 PPG on a .520 TS% vs Curry scoring 30 PPG on a .620 TS%. Yeah, I think my team's offense is going to be drastically better than his. Not to mention Curry is perhaps the best shooting weapon in the Pick and Roll in history and Karl Malone is the best Pick and Roll Big in history, there's simply no way he's going to be able to guard it.

valade16
06-08-2018, 09:44 AM
I'm reformatting my computer but I'll post a write-up asap. I just want to mention that I have 2 DPOY players as well as a 4x All Defensive Team player to throw at his best (or 2nd best) player in Karl Malone. Big O, Penny, and TMac were all great defenders in their prime who would slow and make life a little harder for Curry and Drexler. When I sub in players from the bench, the defense and shooting gets even deadlier. Conley was considered the 2nd best defensive PG (behind CP3) during his peak, AK47 was a multiple time All Defensive Team player as well who was an excellent shot blocker. Khris Middleton is also no slouch on defense. And of course there is Hersey Hawkins... you know... the guy the Seahawks put on Michael Jordan instead of Gary Payton in a playoff game because he was shown he was capable of giving him fits.

I don't even really want to do a write up about how to limit Billy Cunningham's offense... I want to entice him to jack up shots like he did in real life and be Valade's true #1 scoring option.

First Bolded: As evidenced by their combined 0 Defensive teams. None of them were more than average at best defensively.

Second Bolded: Yes, the Sonics put Hawkins on MJ to start the series, and they went in an 0-3 hole and Hawkins did so bad guarding MJ they had to switch and put GP on him. The best defensive achievement of Hawkins career was getting benched, he is certainly not a + on defense.

Rivera
06-08-2018, 10:42 AM
the more i look at team RR the more i love them

they can neutralize Curry with both O and Conley, and if you need some length in case if Curry is having one of those nights, Hawkins/Penny/Tmac can do justice

RR has the length to bother Drexler with Penny/Tmac/Hawkins/Middleton

when tmac was motivated, he played great D. dont let the stats fool you. T-Mac when he wanted to could lock up anyone

as well as Malone with Grant/Kirilenko/Dwight and Noah who all can defend in their prime

team seagguls want to say they wouldnt get any production from Dwight and Grant but

what do they except from Tyson who has 0 offensive game (at least dwight had a hook when he was on) and an inefficient billy cunningham?

I also dont think its close with the bench either, better defenders, 3 good outside shooters, the versatility of Kirelenko and the spirit and leadership of Noah

Team RR also has better rim protection, great job team RR

valade16
06-08-2018, 11:11 AM
the more i look at team RR the more i love them

they can neutralize Curry with both O and Conley, and if you need some length in case if Curry is having one of those nights, Hawkins/Penny/Tmac can do justice

RR has the length to bother Drexler with Penny/Tmac/Hawkins/Middleton

when tmac was motivated, he played great D. dont let the stats fool you. T-Mac when he wanted to could lock up anyone

as well as Malone with Grant/Kirilenko/Dwight and Noah who all can defend in their prime

team seagguls want to say they wouldnt get any production from Dwight and Grant but

what do they except from Tyson who has 0 offensive game (at least dwight had a hook when he was on) and an inefficient billy cunningham?

I also dont think its close with the bench either, better defenders, 3 good outside shooters, the versatility of Kirelenko and the spirit and leadership of Noah

Team RR also has better rim protection, great job team RR

First Bolded: Nobody except the greatest defenders ever is neutralizing Curry, certainly not Big O or Conley. In fact here is Curry's #'s vs. Conley:

RS: 24.0 PPG, 6.8 APG on 45% from 3
PL: 25.0 PPG, 6.4 APG on 39% from 3

So no, Conley isn't stopping Curry at all.

Second Bolded: Again, I already showed the numbers of Grant vs Malone. He isn't stopping him at all. In fact, Malone went off for 30 PPG on 59% FG in the playoffs vs Grant.

Third Bolded: Billy Cunningham was only inefficient because of the era he played in. He was a tremendous scorer and actually won the ABA MVP.

I get it, you're a Magic fan so you likely overrate some of his players. But we have actual evidence that Conley isn't stopping Curry at all and Grant isn't stopping Malone at all. Not to mention pretty much everyone on my team at every level is a better scorer than their counterpart. My offense would steamroll his, Dwight by himself isn't enough defense to stop me, and if he brings in AK47/Conley/Noah defensively, he has no offense.

Rivera
06-08-2018, 11:58 AM
First Bolded: Nobody except the greatest defenders ever is neutralizing Curry, certainly not Big O or Conley. In fact here is Curry's #'s vs. Conley:

RS: 24.0 PPG, 6.8 APG on 45% from 3
PL: 25.0 PPG, 6.4 APG on 39% from 3

So no, Conley isn't stopping Curry at all.

Second Bolded: Again, I already showed the numbers of Grant vs Malone. He isn't stopping him at all. In fact, Malone went off for 30 PPG on 59% FG in the playoffs vs Grant.

Third Bolded: Billy Cunningham was only inefficient because of the era he played in. He was a tremendous scorer and actually won the ABA MVP.

I get it, you're a Magic fan so you likely overrate some of his players. But we have actual evidence that Conley isn't stopping Curry at all and Grant isn't stopping Malone at all. Not to mention pretty much everyone on my team at every level is a better scorer than their counterpart. My offense would steamroll his, Dwight by himself isn't enough defense to stop me, and if he brings in AK47/Conley/Noah defensively, he has no offense.

you can get frustrated all you want, you can stat me to death all you want but its the truth. Conley will make Curry work. Big O would make Curry work. We have seen Curry go through streches (see game 3) of coldness on the biggest stage. We have also seen Curry go super nova. His guards with the length they have will make Curry WORK. you can stat me to death, no one player can stop any superstar player in the NBA its all about team defense and the length RR has with the PG defense he has will make it super difficult.

Clyde is overrated, and Billy cunnigham is inefficient. Grant didnt have the help on the back end that he does now with Dwight and Noah. Team RR is also has more unselfish players

the most overrated thing in these games is having 5 guys that can score. In the NBA theres not many teams were all 5 guys are a threat to score. its about system, and the players around them. Penny/Tmac/O/Conley can get shots for anyone on that team and put them in position to get an easy bucket. The spacing is great too for team RR.

They are always going to have an anchor in the paint, and they will always have a good defensive wing or 2 on the floor no matter what.

you can stat me to death, but the thing about stats. Grant didnt play with Penny tmac or dwight. Dwight didnt play with tmac or penny or O. You have to see how they fit and how stats would change based off fit.

using stats in this hypothetical game is like saying Chris Bosh averages 22 and 10 with the raptors. he joins the heat with bron and wade and hes going to average the same which he didnt. his numbers took a slight hit because hes playing with better players and is a #3 option.

the main stat that would translate over when a player goes from team to different team is really efficiency. How efficient is the player. Bosh and Love maintained about the same efficiency but werent as good as they were when they were #1 options and both in the spotlight got called out for their softness and defense. Bosh raised his game and became a better defender, Love didnt.

This is a hypothetical, Grant didnt have the rim protection he has now. Tmac wishes he played with a second option like O or Penny. We saw what O did with one of the best centers of all time. He would make Dwight better.

You have to use their skillsets to match the team and what you want. The skillsets for team RR fit eachother so much better and have much better overall defenders than your team.

one thing your team lacks big time for curry is the screen setting. You have 2 great screen setters with Malone and Chandler. Jamison is not a screen setter and LMA can do it, but is recognized as pretty soft and that isnt one of his strengths

if you want to call that analysis bias. go right ahead. but my reasoning isnt bias. its all based off teams RR skill sets vs your teams skill set

his team matches up with your best players, plays better overall D based off the personnel and can still score. the team that plays better D and can score usually wins in the playoffs.

its nothing personal its just what i feel would happen if both these teams were in their prime and matched up

valade16
06-08-2018, 12:49 PM
you can get frustrated all you want, you can stat me to death all you want but its the truth. Conley will make Curry work. Big O would make Curry work. We have seen Curry go through streches (see game 3) of coldness on the biggest stage. We have also seen Curry go super nova. His guards with the length they have will make Curry WORK. you can stat me to death, no one player can stop any superstar player in the NBA its all about team defense and the length RR has with the PG defense he has will make it super difficult.

Clyde is overrated, and Billy cunnigham is inefficient. Grant didnt have the help on the back end that he does now with Dwight and Noah. Team RR is also has more unselfish players

the most overrated thing in these games is having 5 guys that can score. In the NBA theres not many teams were all 5 guys are a threat to score. its about system, and the players around them. Penny/Tmac/O/Conley can get shots for anyone on that team and put them in position to get an easy bucket. The spacing is great too for team RR.

They are always going to have an anchor in the paint, and they will always have a good defensive wing or 2 on the floor no matter what.

you can stat me to death, but the thing about stats. Grant didnt play with Penny tmac or dwight. Dwight didnt play with tmac or penny or O. You have to see how they fit and how stats would change based off fit.

using stats in this hypothetical game is like saying Chris Bosh averages 22 and 10 with the raptors. he joins the heat with bron and wade and hes going to average the same which he didnt. his numbers took a slight hit because hes playing with better players and is a #3 option.

the main stat that would translate over when a player goes from team to different team is really efficiency. How efficient is the player. Bosh and Love maintained about the same efficiency but werent as good as they were when they were #1 options and both in the spotlight got called out for their softness and defense. Bosh raised his game and became a better defender, Love didnt.

This is a hypothetical, Grant didnt have the rim protection he has now. Tmac wishes he played with a second option like O or Penny. We saw what O did with one of the best centers of all time. He would make Dwight better.

You have to use their skillsets to match the team and what you want. The skillsets for team RR fit eachother so much better and have much better overall defenders than your team.

one thing your team lacks big time for curry is the screen setting. You have 2 great screen setters with Malone and Chandler. Jamison is not a screen setter and LMA can do it, but is recognized as pretty soft and that isnt one of his strengths

if you want to call that analysis bias. go right ahead. but my reasoning isnt bias. its all based off teams RR skill sets vs your teams skill set

his team matches up with your best players, plays better overall D based off the personnel and can still score. the team that plays better D and can score usually wins in the playoffs.

its nothing personal its just what i feel would happen if both these teams were in their prime and matched up

So basically screw actual information my opinion is supreme? Why debate with you at all? I have several stats that show your basic ignorance about several of your assertions (for one, Grant DID play with Penny, for two his "spacing" is virtually non-existent, for three that his team is more unselfish despite having Dwight), but it would require stats to do so, and you've already said you don't really care to intake new information, so why bother?

I think we will have to agree to disagree at this point. I get it, he has 4 Magic players and you're a Magic fan. I gave you the benefit of the doubt that you weren't going to go full homer and actually responded to you, I see that my benefit was misplaced.

Rivera
06-08-2018, 01:03 PM
So basically screw actual information my opinion is supreme? Why debate with you at all? I have several stats that show your basic ignorance about several of your assertions (for one, Grant DID play with Penny, for two his "spacing" is virtually non-existent, for three that his team is more unselfish despite having Dwight), but it would require stats to do so, and you've already said you don't really care to intake new information, so why bother?

I think we will have to agree to disagree at this point. I get it, he has 4 Magic players and you're a Magic fan. I gave you the benefit of the doubt that you weren't going to go full homer and actually responded to you, I see that my benefit was misplaced.

sensitive much? i actually provided real information as to why you can stat me to death and how stats dont always correlate. but if you want to play that card go ahead

and if you feel your opinion is supreme go ahead. i provided real basketball strategies and i feel my opinion is supreme.

Rivera
06-08-2018, 01:09 PM
and lol at grants spacing as "non existant" grant's game was pulling people to the mid range free throw area that LMA loves

but im the one showing ignorance? LOLOLOL

go ahead and throw shots at what you think my bball knowledge is i have never ever came at you as a poster and discredited you, but if you want to be disrespectful and say mean things about me (especially as a mod) then go ahead with that game plan

be mad that hes got a better team built than you

mngopher35
06-08-2018, 01:13 PM
hmmm Valade I think has more top talent but this matchup is interesting. I actually am pretty high on Oscar/Tmac compared to some I think... Well maybe not Tmac around here. I think there is a little bit of an issue on the perimeter defensively.

I can't decide exactly what I think about Malone here. Valade makes some good points but with Chandler/Dwight down low will there be enough room to operate in the same way? I know he has beaten grant but in this matchup I'm wondering exactly how you plan to use him.

Explain to me how you guys plan to attack some of these weaknesses the numbers/awards etc. expose within the matchup

valade16
06-08-2018, 01:17 PM
sensitive much? i actually provided real information as to why you can stat me to death and how stats dont always correlate. but if you want to play that card go ahead

and if you feel your opinion is supreme go ahead. i provided real basketball strategies and i feel my opinion is supreme.

Not really, you just parroted the opinions you said previously. You said Conley could guard Curry, then when I showed he couldn't you said he'd make him work. Well if he'd make Curry work how come he hasn't?

Other real information you said was Penny/T-Mac/Big O/Conley provide great spacing. Penny is a career 31% 3pt shooter, T-Mac is a career 33% and Big O has never shot an official 3-pointer in his life. There was nothing real about that information.

Another piece of real information you presented is his team is more unselfish. His team has Dwight, perhaps the most selfish player of the past decade or so. You also said that Horace Grant didn't have rim protection when he faced Karl Malone so the result may be different. Well Horace Grant faced Malone when he was on Orlando and LA and had Shaq, and Malone still averaged 23.7 PPG on 48% FG.

So it's not so much that you have an opinion or that you are dismissing my stats, it's that your opinions are factually incorrect.

valade16
06-08-2018, 01:21 PM
and lol at grants spacing as "non existant" grant's game was pulling people to the mid range free throw area that LMA loves

but im the one showing ignorance? LOLOLOL

go ahead and throw shots at what you think my bball knowledge is i have never ever came at you as a poster and discredited you, but if you want to be disrespectful and say mean things about me (especially as a mod) then go ahead with that game plan

be mad that hes got a better team built than you

If you think pulling someone out to the FT line is spacing in today's NBA...

Also, LMA's sweet spot is not the FT line, it's slightly off center past the FT line and the top of the key entirely. 32% of his shots came from back there, only 20% came from 10-16 ft. (FT line distance).

Rivera
06-08-2018, 01:29 PM
Not really, you just parroted the opinions you said previously. You said Conley could guard Curry, then when I showed he couldn't you said he'd make him work. Well if he'd make Curry work how come he hasn't?

Other real information you said was Penny/T-Mac/Big O/Conley provide great spacing. Penny is a career 31% 3pt shooter, T-Mac is a career 33% and Big O has never shot an official 3-pointer in his life. There was nothing real about that information.

Another piece of real information you presented is his team is more unselfish. His team has Dwight, perhaps the most selfish player of the past decade or so. You also said that Horace Grant didn't have rim protection when he faced Karl Malone so the result may be different. Well Horace Grant faced Malone when he was on Orlando and LA and had Shaq, and Malone still averaged 23.7 PPG on 48% FG.

So it's not so much that you have an opinion or that you are dismissing my stats, it's that your opinions are factually incorrect.

but you will leave out that when they played in the playoffs Conley held Curry to 41% shooting and 39% from 3. Which is LOW for Steph. and im incorrect here?

how is that not locked down?

Big O already stated how he would guard curry, be physical and pick him up full court. Big O has the size and length to bother Curry. As seen in the finals for 4 years, when you are physical with Curry you can bother him. its been proven, but go ahead and tell me how ignorant and how im wrong again.

Dwight turned Hedo Turkoglu into a real player and one of Orlandos big players during the playoff strech, he had Jameer Nelson as a starting PG and made Nelson feel near all star caliber. and I will still give you that Dwight can be selfish, but when your on a team full of unselfish players and your not the lead dog (which he wouldnt be) its human instict for people to fit when you have a great culture. Big O is the vocal leader of that team, and the way Big O/Penny/Tmac can pass would make that team super unselfish

personally, i wouldnt have grant on Malone, I would have Dwight because of his athleticism and his muscle, but even if you have Grant, Grant has the rim protection from Dwight and Noah to help neutralize Malone that Grant didnt have before. As good as Shaq was, he wasnt the defender Dwight was in Dwights prime.

but go ahead and tell me how im in correct in a hypothetical game when trying to fit the pieces you guys have together

Rivera
06-08-2018, 01:31 PM
If you think pulling someone out to the FT line is spacing in today's NBA...

Also, LMA's sweet spot is not the FT line, it's slightly off center past the FT line and the top of the key entirely. 32% of his shots came from back there, only 20% came from 10-16 ft. (FT line distance).

Not what I meant, so im sorry for mis speaking. What i meant to say is both Grant and LMA both love shooting from the same distance, 10-16 feet and both can pull their defender in that area for a pick and pop, therefore, spacing

valade16
06-08-2018, 02:10 PM
but you will leave out that when they played in the playoffs Conley held Curry to 41% shooting and 39% from 3. Which is LOW for Steph. and im incorrect here?

how is that not locked down?

Big O already stated how he would guard curry, be physical and pick him up full court. Big O has the size and length to bother Curry. As seen in the finals for 4 years, when you are physical with Curry you can bother him. its been proven, but go ahead and tell me how ignorant and how im wrong again.

Dwight turned Hedo Turkoglu into a real player and one of Orlandos big players during the playoff strech, he had Jameer Nelson as a starting PG and made Nelson feel near all star caliber. and I will still give you that Dwight can be selfish, but when your on a team full of unselfish players and your not the lead dog (which he wouldnt be) its human instict for people to fit when you have a great culture. Big O is the vocal leader of that team, and the way Big O/Penny/Tmac can pass would make that team super unselfish

personally, i wouldnt have grant on Malone, I would have Dwight because of his athleticism and his muscle, but even if you have Grant, Grant has the rim protection from Dwight and Noah to help neutralize Malone that Grant didnt have before. As good as Shaq was, he wasnt the defender Dwight was in Dwights prime.

but go ahead and tell me how im in correct in a hypothetical game when trying to fit the pieces you guys have together

First Bolded: Here were Curry's games against Conley in the playoffs:

G1: 19 pts, 7/19 2/11 from 3 .458 TS%
G2: 23 pts, 8/19 2/10 from 3 .478 TS%
G3: 33 pts, 11/22 4/9 from 3 .636 TS%
G4: 18 pts, 6/16 6/13 from 3 .563 TS%
G5: 32 pts, 11/25 8/13 from 3 .618 TS%

So whatever Conley was doing against Curry stopped working pretty quickly as after the first two games Curry started torching him.

Second Bolded: But the problem is Dwight never wants to be anything other than the primary option. He was fine in Orlando because he was the #1 guy. Now you're asking him to play the same role he had in LA, Houston and Atlanta, in which he moped, didn't put in effort, and left in shame.

Why would anybody assume Dwight would thrive as a complimentary piece when he has never done so?

Redrum187
06-08-2018, 02:51 PM
The reason you want to use 09-11 is because it was only 5 games and thus made his few good performances look even better. If you simply add one year to each end (which was definitely still Dwight's peak) and go from 08-12 you get 16.2 PPG and 12.6 RPG.

As for having to resort to LMA on Dwight, I'd actually love that. Dwight being pulled out to defend LMA's midrange game? Now he's away from the basket, perfect for me. The Rockets put Dwight on LMA in their first round matchup in 2014 and LMA scored 30 PPG in the series.

I mean, basketball reference is available to everyone... I used 08-09 to 10-11 because that was Dwight's superior peak. Those are the 3 seasons in a row he was Defensive Player of the Year... why WOULDN'T I use it? It makes sense not only from a production and impact point of view, but in the way I plan to use Howard in the series (bullying Chandler for rebounds and playing elite defense). Sorry, not going to use the career stats and ignore the 3 year peak Dwight had to convince you I wasn't cherry-picking the head-to-head matchups.

I mean, I'd rather LMA who was not ultra efficient take long 2's than let Curry/Malone/Drexler get their shots, even if I have multiple DPOY players and multiple time All Defensive Team players guarding them. Feel free to use out-of-prime Dwight numbers to make your case... you already used career numbers. This is about peak years and it's unfortunate for you that in their peak, Dwight Howard destroyed Tyson Chandler... and there is no way a prime LMA was close to the level Chandler was defensively especially considering they have a similar build.

valade16
06-08-2018, 03:00 PM
I mean, basketball reference is available to everyone... I used 08-09 to 10-11 because that was Dwight's superior peak. Those are the 3 seasons in a row he was Defensive Player of the Year... why WOULDN'T I use it? It makes sense not only from a production and impact point of view, but in the way I plan to use Howard in the series (bullying Chandler for rebounds and playing elite defense). Sorry, not going to use the career stats and ignore the 3 year peak Dwight had to convince you I wasn't cherry-picking the head-to-head matchups.

I mean, I'd rather LMA who was not ultra efficient take long 2's than let Curry/Malone/Drexler get their shots, even if I have multiple DPOY players and multiple time All Defensive Team players guarding them. Feel free to use out-of-prime Dwight numbers to make your case... you already used career numbers. This is about peak years and it's unfortunate for you that in their peak, Dwight Howard destroyed Tyson Chandler... and there is no way a prime LMA was close to the level Chandler was defensively especially considering they have a similar build.

So you want to use Dwight in the way that whenever anybody tried to use him that way he threw a hissy fit and torpedoed team chemistry to the point where all the teams got rid of him for how bad he was?

As for your numbers, you don't want to use 2008 and 2012 Dwight because you know he didn't do as good against Chandler. Furthermore, Tyson's peak was 2011-2013, so you're not even using his peak vs. Dwight. The moment Chandler hit his peak he started shutting Dwight down.

Dwight's peak vs Chandler:
19.5 PPG | 14.7 RPG

Dwight's #'s vs peak Chandler:
14.2 PPG | 9.2 RPG

Redrum187
06-08-2018, 03:05 PM
The perimeter defense for SSS is pretty bad to try and stop a offense trio of McGrady/BigO/Penny, I think other way around they can maintain defensively vs Curry/Drexler/Cunningham? I just can't see Drexler responding to the challenge of trying to stop a offensive trio of the Big O, Magic Show. Curry will go off? Against Big O? man, I would ****ing love it lol, some of these matchups just make me smile because what if you know? Malone vs Howard would be epic fun as the duo would bang down low often with a counter punch mate. This in real life would be a fun ****ing series.

That's a really good point honestly. Curry is hidden quite well within the Warriors defense that at times he looks like an average defender. On Valades team, without having elite defensive wings (Drexler and Cunningham weren't anything special), Curry is going to be forced to work... He can pick to guard the bigger, faster, and more athletic Oscar Robertson, the 6'7 Penny Hardaway, or the 6'8 Tracy McGrady.

One of the main focuses in the series is to use the trio to force the switch so Curry has to guard one of my wings (Oscar/Penny/TMac). This will cause to 3 things to happen: 1.) easier buckets as Curry isn't fast or strong enough to contain any of Oscar/Penny/TMac 2.) Curry is going to use lots of energy on defense where he'll get in early foul trouble and demand Tyson Chandler cover up for him 3.) Tyson Chandler, who was already foul prone against Dwight Howard, will foul out even faster than he did in real life.

We all know that when a team doesn't have good wing defense it is significantly more taxing on the bigs to cover up for them. Chandler will play less than the 25-27 minutes he typically plays considering he isn't just competing with Dwight for rebounds, but he has 3 elite play-makers/penetraters to try to protect the rim against considering his wings are collectively below-par defensively. I don't think Tyson Chandler is remotely enough to cover up for their starting unit's glaring weakness defensively.

I have a few questions:

1.) Who does Curry guard and how does he do it?
2.) Is Tyson Chandler going to attempt to guard Dwight in this matchup or will Karl Malone be switched onto Dwight as Chandler grabbed less than 5 boards and scored less than 7 points in their head-to-head prime numbers?
3.) Who is Cunningham guarding and how does he do it?

valade16
06-08-2018, 03:18 PM
That's a really good point honestly. Curry is hidden quite well within the Warriors defense that at times he looks like an average defender. On Valades team, without having elite defensive wings (Drexler and Cunningham weren't anything special), Curry is going to be forced to work... He can pick to guard the bigger, faster, and more athletic Oscar Robertson, the 6'7 Penny Hardaway, or the 6'8 Tracy McGrady.

One of the main focuses in the series is to use the trio to force the switch so Curry has to guard one of my wings (Oscar/Penny/TMac). This will cause to 3 things to happen: 1.) easier buckets as Curry isn't fast or strong enough to contain any of Oscar/Penny/TMac 2.) Curry is going to use lots of energy on defense where he'll get in early foul trouble and demand Tyson Chandler cover up for him 3.) Tyson Chandler, who was already foul prone against Dwight Howard, will foul out even faster than he did in real life.

We all know that when a team doesn't have good wing defense it is significantly more taxing on the bigs to cover up for them. Chandler will play less than the 25-27 minutes he typically plays considering he isn't just competing with Dwight for rebounds, but he has 3 elite play-makers/penetraters to try to protect the rim against considering his wings are collectively below-par defensively. I don't think Tyson Chandler is remotely enough to cover up for their starting unit's glaring weakness defensively.

I have a few questions:

1.) Who does Curry guard and how does he do it?
2.) Is Tyson Chandler going to attempt to guard Dwight in this matchup or will Karl Malone be switched onto Dwight as Chandler grabbed less than 5 boards and scored less than 7 points in their head-to-head prime numbers?
3.) Who is Cunningham guarding and how does he do it?

1). Curry can certainly guard Big O adequately. He just performed extremely well against James Harden, and he's a tougher guard than Big O. Not to mention you have the same problem. None of your perimeter players are very good at defense either, so who is guarding Curry?

2). Tyson in his prime shut down Dwight, so he's more than enough to guard him. Especially considering Dwight will be throwing a hissy fit and not trying since you don't plan to use him as the offensive focal point.

3). Cunningham will be guarding either Penny or T-Mac. I get it, he's an older player and he's white so everyone is going to think he sucks or he was un-athletic. But he was actually extremely athletic (his nickname was due to his athletic ability) and he won the ABA MVP. He's no scrub. Not to mention I have Mark Aguirre to come in, who played great defense for the Detroit "Bad Boy" Pistons, as well as Norm Van Lier, one of the best perimeter defenders ever.

The questions I have for you are:

1). Beyond simply having Big O/Penny/T-Mac go ISO what offense are you actually running?

2). Where is your spacing actually coming from?

3). Considering Karl Malone absolutely destroyed Horace Grant whenever they played, are you really going to keep him on Malone? Having my 2nd/3rd scoring option penciled in for 30 points on great efficiency will be awesome for my team.

4). How do you plan to stop a Curry/Malone pick and roll?

Redrum187
06-08-2018, 03:55 PM
Far more than you:

Mark Aguirre 26.0 PPG > Hersey Hawkins 20.4 PPG
Billy Cunningham 24.1 > Khris Middleton 18.5 PPG
LaMarucs Aldridge 22.5 PPG > Mike Conley 17.3 PPG
Antawn Jamison 22.3 PPG > Dwight Howard 16.2 PPG
Steve Smith 19.8 PPG > Andrei Kirilenko 15.8 PPG
Horace Grant 14.1 PPG

Literally every single one of my guys when matched up by scoring against yours scores more than yours. So my team has far more offense.

And for all the crap about my perimeter D, yours is no better. Big O, T-Mac and Penny were never standout defenders.

And as for Cunningham's scoring, he already showed he can be a complimentary piece on a championship team when he was on the 76ers, where he shot significantly less than 24 shots a game. So your main argument against my offense is that my 4th/5th scoring option is inefficient.

OK, but your 1st scoring option is inefficient. Tracy McGrady's career TS% is .519. He only has 1 season in his entire career over .535 TS%. He is super inefficient, and he's your #1 scorer.

So you have T-Mac scoring 30 PPG on a .520 TS% vs Curry scoring 30 PPG on a .620 TS%. Yeah, I think my team's offense is going to be drastically better than his. Not to mention Curry is perhaps the best shooting weapon in the Pick and Roll in history and Karl Malone is the best Pick and Roll Big in history, there's simply no way he's going to be able to guard it.

Your bench players had more ppg, but on entirely more shot attempts. Your bench has players with weaknesses in their game. If you want Cunningham to score the 24.1 ppg you listed, by all means... take 20+ shots to get it. He doesn't offer anything defensively AND he is tied for the number 1 scoring option on your team? I'll take it.

I feared people wouldn't respect Oscar Robertson as a 3 point shooter, which he absolutely would have been, so I loaded my bench with impact players who could ALL pass, shoot, rebound, and defend. Aside from your bench taking a ginormous amount of shots to get their points, it's without question they are not nearly as good defensively or as offensively versatile as my bench.

Wouldn't you say if AK47 was on your team, he'd be the best wing defender by an astronomical margin?

Wouldn't you say peak Joakim Noah was better than peak Chandler both on offense (not quite as efficient but world's better at passing) and defense? Only difference is, Joakim is a backup...

Would you agree with this in terms of defense abilities: Conley >

Wouldn't you say Hawkins/Middleton/Conley/Kirilenko shoot noticeably better (more efficient) than Aguirre/Cunningham/Jamison/Smith?

Also, why do you get to use peak numbers but Dwight Howard is randomly assigned a non-peak average of points (16.2)??? And then you say TMac's TS% was lower than it really was and then list his career TS% as if it has any relevance whatsoever. I mean, isn't this PEAK? I can understand if you wanted to use a larger peak period, maybe 5 years instead of 3 years... that's a fair argument, but it's not fair when you get to cherry-pick stats to soften the blow of my players against your players.

You list Cunningham as 24+ ppg but then say he has proven to be a good complimentary piece on a championship team... So now he is a complimentary piece AND he gets to score 24 points (granted on 20+ shots)? This just reinforces my point from earlier... your complimentary pieces have high point averages but they don't do anything other than that.

How is Cunningham a good complimentary player in your starting unit? Do championship teams really need a high usage/low efficiency power-forward/small-forward who can't guard athletic and bigger wings? How is he even used in this matchup?

As far as my number 1 scoring option goes, Curry is guarding Oscar and Oscar was a VERY efficient player in a time when efficiency wasn't really a thing. He would only be more efficient with today's 3 point line and being guarded by Curry. With Chandler as his only defensive big who only played 25-27 minutes a game, he won't be able to cover up for Curry's weakness.

Now to address the "alternative facts" Valade said about TMac. From 2000-2001 to 2002-2003, TMac didn't have a 52 TS%... He had a 540 TS%. Drexler had a 557 TS% in his 3 year peak... Here is the difference though... TMac was always the number 1 option in real life and he demanded the focus of team defenses... Billy Cunningham is guarding him... a 6'6 PF/SF who won't be able to keep up... In addition, TMac isn't even going to be the number 1 option when Curry is guarding Oscar, which would only make Tmac noticeably more efficient in this series.

The other alternative fact that was said was that Oscar/Penny/TMac weren't "standout" defenders. While none of the trio were as good as Andrei Kirilenko defensively, they were ABSOLUTELY pesky defenders. It's without question that in their peaks and when it matters most (playoffs), they were well above average defenders where as Curry, Clyde, and Cunningham are collectively sub-par. Clyde is the best defensive player on your starting unit, and he was average at best. To make matters worse for you, the only player that was really good on the wing defensively won't even get much time because he plays the same position as Curry.

I'll concede you have a really good offensive trio, but the team is far below average defensively and doesn't have the personnel to defend against my trio (Oscar/Penny/TMac). While your offense is good, my offense is faster, more athletic, lower turnover rate and ultra high assists/play making. Everyone on my roster, with the exception of Dwight, was a great play-maker, which yields to more efficient scoring especially when the defense is light.

Dunkapolooza
06-08-2018, 04:00 PM
Karl Malone is going to beat Dwight like a drum guys, come on lol. The best thing anyone could say about Dwight is that he can jump high and he's real strong. Karl is stronger, and a better athlete. I don't know how Dwight scores with his measly two post moves in this match up.

The warriors play every relevant series with Curry getting switched onto the primary ball handler of the opposing team and they still win. Be it Lebron, be it Harden, or some of the greatest offensive threats to ever play. In an era where you must guard more of the court than ever before. All those guys are bigger than Oscar and more versatile offensive players. Yet, Curry still won championships. So, switch away, its RRís only hope, but it has only worked once when Lebron did it. Failed three times. Didnít work for the Rockets. Didnít work for the Thunder.

Oscar, Penny, and Tmac will score with curry on them sure. But curry will score more than anyone. If Big O Tmac and Penny is scary how on earth is Curry / Clyde not scary either? Seagulls can score inside out or outside in. Meanwhile RR is only going to be able to score outside in. One offense is loaded in every facet, attack the rim, shooting, or post. The other is utterly redundant.

Curry is easily the best scorer in this match up.

Karl Malone is probably the second best scorer in this match up.

Clyde Drexler is arguably as good a scorer as Tmac or Oscar. I meanÖ Clyde is basically a better T-mac.

Defensively, Penny, Tmac, and Oscar were all pretty good defenders. None of them were defensive specialists. None of them are significantly better defensively than Clyde, Curry, or Cunningham. (0-2 dbpm. About 4 dws for all six of these players.) Looking at dbpm Oscar was the worst defender of the bunch and Clyde or Cunningham is the bestÖ check the numbers. Now thatís just the numbers, but it shows that there is not a clear defensive advantage on the perimeter for either team.

There is a clear offensive advantage.

Cunningham can guard anyone in this match up btw, be it McGrady (He's only giving up two measly inches), Penny (cause the Kangaroo kid guarded 1-4 in real life), and even Oscar being that they are about the same size.


Am I the only one who is going to point out that Howard is a chemistry nightmare for this team? When, in his prime, did Dwight ever make it work with a ball dominate perimeter player? Since Dwight can't score more than five feet from the basket, anytime Oscar, Tmac, or Penny drive they will have DPOY and/or Karl waiting for them. Which drives are RR's ONLY chance to get easy buckets. Otherwise they will largely be a jump shooting team. And Dwight will ***** if he doesnít get the ball in the post, where he is outmatched anyway.

Youíd think Penny, Oscar, and Tmac would mean an enormous fast break advantage but that isnít the case here. Clyde, Cunningham, and Curry are all deadly fast break players.

Dunkapolooza
06-08-2018, 04:18 PM
Your bench players had more ppg, but on entirely more shot attempts. Your bench has players with weaknesses in their game. If you want Cunningham to score the 24.1 ppg you listed, by all means... take 20+ shots to get it. He doesn't offer anything defensively AND he is tied for the number 1 scoring option on your team? I'll take it.

He offers just as much defensively as Tmac, Oscar, or Penny. Check the numbers. Cunninghamís best three year span of DWS is 13.6. Tmac 12.6, Penny 9.1, Oscar 10.4 So are you saying that those guys offer nothing defensively? Because if they donít, what are we talking about?

You keep coming back to that too. Its almost your entire argument is based on characterizing Cunningham as the worst defensive starter here. When reality is heís probably the second best behind Clyde, who are numerically both better than anyone you got startingÖ


As far as my number 1 scoring option goes, Curry is guarding Oscar and Oscar was a VERY efficient player in a time when efficiency wasn't really a thing. He would only be more efficient with today's 3 point line and being guarded by Curry. With Chandler as his only defensive big who only played 25-27 minutes a game, he won't be able to cover up for Curry's weakness.

Tyson covered up for Dirkís weaknesses. He managed to anchor a championship defense. None of your big men did so. Lebron and Wade are equal to any rim attackers here. I think youíre seriously underestimating Tysonís length. Curry guarded Lebron, Harden, Westbrook, and so on for most of his games and his team still won.

You can talk about Curry being hidden on GSW but I wonder if you watched the games, because they switch everything. Which means Curry almost always ends up guarding the primary ball handler and they still had the best defense in the league. BTW Clyde and Cunningham have waaaaay better DWS than Klay, and Klayís DBPM are terrible. So overrated defender for sure and Clyde will serve his role defensively much better.


I'll concede you have a really good offensive trio, but the team is far below average defensively and doesn't have the personnel to defend against my trio (Oscar/Penny/TMac). While your offense is good, my offense is faster, more athletic, lower turnover rate and ultra high assists/play making. Everyone on my roster, with the exception of Dwight, was a great play-maker, which yields to more efficient scoring especially when the defense is light.

I donít understand how you can say your team is faster or more athletic either. Cunningham was a great athlete. Curry barely needs to get passed half court to score lol. How can you talk about turnover rates when the guy who will probably have the most turnovers on your team doesnít have any turnover stats lol. Watch his game, Oscar sent that ball into the stands a lot. As far as play making goes Curry, Clyde, and Cunningham were all great play makers. And Karl is worlds better playmaker than Dwight. So how is that a significant advantage?

Redrum187
06-08-2018, 04:18 PM
First Bolded: As evidenced by their combined 0 Defensive teams. None of them were more than average at best defensively.

Second Bolded: Yes, the Sonics put Hawkins on MJ to start the series, and they went in an 0-3 hole and Hawkins did so bad guarding MJ they had to switch and put GP on him. The best defensive achievement of Hawkins career was getting benched, he is certainly not a + on defense.

Shawn Marion never made an All Defensive Team, does that mean he wasn't a good defender? Now, I'll concede they aren't as good defensively as Marion was, but Penny and TMac had incredible peaks but their careers were cut short so they didn't make any teams. To pretend that Penny/TMac/Oscar were average or below average would be entirely inaccurate, as all 3 would be better at guarding wings than Curry/Drexler/Cunningham.

Oscar Robertson was considered the best 2-way wing of his time. By the time the NBA started the All Defensive Team (68-69 season) award, Oscar was out of prime. Granted I wasn't even born when he played and I can't claim to have watched him play games, I can only go off what older NBA fans say about him. Videos show he was athletic and big for a PG, and it makes sense when people say he was a great defender.

Now for Hersey Hawkins (3 point sniper and good defender):

https://www.deseretnews.com/top/2521/20/6-Hersey-Hawkins-The-1988-NBA-draft-redone-Who-did-the-Jazz-miss-out-on-when-they-took-Eric.html
http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19960312&slug=2318528

Also, your history of Hersey Hawkins is backwards... Perhaps another "alternative fact". Gary Payton was on MJ the first 3 games... it was Hawkins who was put on Jordan in the latter part of the series that slowed MJ down. The fact MJ and the Bulls still won shouldn't be a knock on Hawkins... the fact that Hawkins made it competitive when he was on Jordan is a testament to how good he was defensively.

Redrum187
06-08-2018, 04:27 PM
the more i look at team RR the more i love them

they can neutralize Curry with both O and Conley, and if you need some length in case if Curry is having one of those nights, Hawkins/Penny/Tmac can do justice

RR has the length to bother Drexler with Penny/Tmac/Hawkins/Middleton

when tmac was motivated, he played great D. dont let the stats fool you. T-Mac when he wanted to could lock up anyone

as well as Malone with Grant/Kirilenko/Dwight and Noah who all can defend in their prime

team seagguls want to say they wouldnt get any production from Dwight and Grant but

what do they except from Tyson who has 0 offensive game (at least dwight had a hook when he was on) and an inefficient billy cunningham?

I also dont think its close with the bench either, better defenders, 3 good outside shooters, the versatility of Kirelenko and the spirit and leadership of Noah

Team RR also has better rim protection, great job team RR

Much appreciated. I feel the exact same way. I know it's my team so it's difficult to really be 100% objective but when looking at it from a PEAK (not career achievement) point-of-view, I don't know how it isn't true or an objective opinion.

Rivera
06-08-2018, 04:31 PM
Karl Malone is going to beat Dwight like a drum guys, come on lol. The best thing anyone could say about Dwight is that he can jump high and he's real strong. Karl is stronger, and a better athlete. I don't know how Dwight scores with his measly two post moves in this match up.


i only want to talk about this section

Malone was 6'9 256 Dwight is 6 11 265 - without having bench press #s its hard to say Malone is stronger, both are physical freaks

Malone had a 28 inch vert Dwight had a 39.5 vert

I dont have Malones wingspan or quickness down a court, but im sure Dwight had a longer wingspan and was a little slower than Malone but not by alot

Redrum187
06-08-2018, 04:35 PM
hmmm Valade I think has more top talent but this matchup is interesting. I actually am pretty high on Oscar/Tmac compared to some I think... Well maybe not Tmac around here. I think there is a little bit of an issue on the perimeter defensively.

I can't decide exactly what I think about Malone here. Valade makes some good points but with Chandler/Dwight down low will there be enough room to operate in the same way? I know he has beaten grant but in this matchup I'm wondering exactly how you plan to use him.

Explain to me how you guys plan to attack some of these weaknesses the numbers/awards etc. expose within the matchup

Why would I only use Grant when I have 2 DPOY I could throw at Malone? While Grant was a 4x All Defense Team player, he can "hide" on Tyson Chandler from time-to-time and take a break on the defensive end. When one big needs a break, I have another one who is fresh to throw at him.

When you mention an issue with perimeter defense, I assume you're speaking about team Valade? I would agree... Curry isn't going to limit Oscar whatsoever, and when Curry is forced to switch on Penny or TMac, there is no way a 6'2/6'3 skinny PG is going to stop them defensively.

valade16
06-08-2018, 04:45 PM
Your bench players had more ppg, but on entirely more shot attempts. Your bench has players with weaknesses in their game. If you want Cunningham to score the 24.1 ppg you listed, by all means... take 20+ shots to get it. He doesn't offer anything defensively AND he is tied for the number 1 scoring option on your team? I'll take it.

I feared people wouldn't respect Oscar Robertson as a 3 point shooter, which he absolutely would have been, so I loaded my bench with impact players who could ALL pass, shoot, rebound, and defend. Aside from your bench taking a ginormous amount of shots to get their points, it's without question they are not nearly as good defensively or as offensively versatile as my bench.

Wouldn't you say if AK47 was on your team, he'd be the best wing defender by an astronomical margin?

Wouldn't you say peak Joakim Noah was better than peak Chandler both on offense (not quite as efficient but world's better at passing) and defense? Only difference is, Joakim is a backup...

Would you agree with this in terms of defense abilities: Conley >

Wouldn't you say Hawkins/Middleton/Conley/Kirilenko shoot noticeably better (more efficient) than Aguirre/Cunningham/Jamison/Smith?

Also, why do you get to use peak numbers but Dwight Howard is randomly assigned a non-peak average of points (16.2)??? And then you say TMac's TS% was lower than it really was and then list his career TS% as if it has any relevance whatsoever. I mean, isn't this PEAK? I can understand if you wanted to use a larger peak period, maybe 5 years instead of 3 years... that's a fair argument, but it's not fair when you get to cherry-pick stats to soften the blow of my players against your players.

You list Cunningham as 24+ ppg but then say he has proven to be a good complimentary piece on a championship team... So now he is a complimentary piece AND he gets to score 24 points (granted on 20+ shots)? This just reinforces my point from earlier... your complimentary pieces have high point averages but they don't do anything other than that.

How is Cunningham a good complimentary player in your starting unit? Do championship teams really need a high usage/low efficiency power-forward/small-forward who can't guard athletic and bigger wings? How is he even used in this matchup?

As far as my number 1 scoring option goes, Curry is guarding Oscar and Oscar was a VERY efficient player in a time when efficiency wasn't really a thing. He would only be more efficient with today's 3 point line and being guarded by Curry. With Chandler as his only defensive big who only played 25-27 minutes a game, he won't be able to cover up for Curry's weakness.

Now to address the "alternative facts" Valade said about TMac. From 2000-2001 to 2002-2003, TMac didn't have a 52 TS%... He had a 540 TS%. Drexler had a 557 TS% in his 3 year peak... Here is the difference though... TMac was always the number 1 option in real life and he demanded the focus of team defenses... Billy Cunningham is guarding him... a 6'6 PF/SF who won't be able to keep up... In addition, TMac isn't even going to be the number 1 option when Curry is guarding Oscar, which would only make Tmac noticeably more efficient in this series.

The other alternative fact that was said was that Oscar/Penny/TMac weren't "standout" defenders. While none of the trio were as good as Andrei Kirilenko defensively, they were ABSOLUTELY pesky defenders. It's without question that in their peaks and when it matters most (playoffs), they were well above average defenders where as Curry, Clyde, and Cunningham are collectively sub-par. Clyde is the best defensive player on your starting unit, and he was average at best. To make matters worse for you, the only player that was really good on the wing defensively won't even get much time because he plays the same position as Curry.

I'll concede you have a really good offensive trio, but the team is far below average defensively and doesn't have the personnel to defend against my trio (Oscar/Penny/TMac). While your offense is good, my offense is faster, more athletic, lower turnover rate and ultra high assists/play making. Everyone on my roster, with the exception of Dwight, was a great play-maker, which yields to more efficient scoring especially when the defense is light.

First Bolded: I showed you the top end scoring for each of my players to demonstrate that all could score more than your bench yet all were able to also be complimentary pieces on championship rosters.

Billy Cunningham played a complimentary role on a championship team, Mark Aguirre played a complimentary role on a championship team, Steve Smith played a complimentary role on a championship team. Heck, even Clyde Drexler was able to play a complimentary role on a championship team. All my guys know how to fit their skillsets into a championship squad.

The point is, you couldn't ignore any of my players because if you try they can still torch you when needed.

Second Bolded: No, teams don't need that. But he isn't that at all. Billy Cunningham already proved that he could be a complimentary piece on a championship team. He could defend, rebound and score. He was a complete player. He won the ABA MVP. This isn't some scrub.

Third Bolded: Nothing I said was alternative facts: T-Mac is a career 52 TS% player. The reason his TS% is .540 from 01-03 is because one time he had a .564 TS%, but other than that he never had a TS% higher than .532. So in 15 seasons in the league you want to believe he's a .540 TS% player because 1 time in 15 seasons he managed to score that efficiently?


We both have 3 primary scorers, mine are more efficient and you don't have a single person who could slow down any of them.

Redrum187
06-08-2018, 04:45 PM
but you will leave out that when they played in the playoffs Conley held Curry to 41% shooting and 39% from 3. Which is LOW for Steph. and im incorrect here?

how is that not locked down?

Big O already stated how he would guard curry, be physical and pick him up full court. Big O has the size and length to bother Curry. As seen in the finals for 4 years, when you are physical with Curry you can bother him. its been proven, but go ahead and tell me how ignorant and how im wrong again.

Dwight turned Hedo Turkoglu into a real player and one of Orlandos big players during the playoff strech, he had Jameer Nelson as a starting PG and made Nelson feel near all star caliber. and I will still give you that Dwight can be selfish, but when your on a team full of unselfish players and your not the lead dog (which he wouldnt be) its human instict for people to fit when you have a great culture. Big O is the vocal leader of that team, and the way Big O/Penny/Tmac can pass would make that team super unselfish

personally, i wouldnt have grant on Malone, I would have Dwight because of his athleticism and his muscle, but even if you have Grant, Grant has the rim protection from Dwight and Noah to help neutralize Malone that Grant didnt have before. As good as Shaq was, he wasnt the defender Dwight was in Dwights prime.

but go ahead and tell me how im in correct in a hypothetical game when trying to fit the pieces you guys have together

That is the best way to limit Curry. Oscar has the tools to body Curry up and make him work on both sides of the court. I have no doubt that Conley would do a respectable job against Curry as well.

I personally wouldn't have Grant on Malone the majority of the time either. I'd have Grant on Malone in short spurts where he can focus his energy on him, but then switch him to Chandler or LMA to allow my 3x DPOY (Howard) and 1x DPOY (Noah) onto him.

The only thing about causing Chandler to foul out really early is that Grant might actually still have to defend a little bit with LMA, which he's absolutely more than capable of doing. I'll gladly take that and make Karl Malone the only above-average defender on his team (Norm Van Lier isn't going to play over Curry). It'll be bad enough that Malone is guarded by 2 DPOY players and a 4x All Team Defensive player, but to force him to be the only defensive big left on the team would be debilitating for team Valade.

valade16
06-08-2018, 04:50 PM
Shawn Marion never made an All Defensive Team, does that mean he wasn't a good defender? Now, I'll concede they aren't as good defensively as Marion was, but Penny and TMac had incredible peaks but their careers were cut short so they didn't make any teams. To pretend that Penny/TMac/Oscar were average or below average would be entirely inaccurate, as all 3 would be better at guarding wings than Curry/Drexler/Cunningham.

Oscar Robertson was considered the best 2-way wing of his time. By the time the NBA started the All Defensive Team (68-69 season) award, Oscar was out of prime. Granted I wasn't even born when he played and I can't claim to have watched him play games, I can only go off what older NBA fans say about him. Videos show he was athletic and big for a PG, and it makes sense when people say he was a great defender.

Now for Hersey Hawkins (3 point sniper and good defender):

https://www.deseretnews.com/top/2521/20/6-Hersey-Hawkins-The-1988-NBA-draft-redone-Who-did-the-Jazz-miss-out-on-when-they-took-Eric.html
http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19960312&slug=2318528

Also, your history of Hersey Hawkins is backwards... Perhaps another "alternative fact". Gary Payton was on MJ the first 3 games... it was Hawkins who was put on Jordan in the latter part of the series that slowed MJ down. The fact MJ and the Bulls still won shouldn't be a knock on Hawkins... the fact that Hawkins made it competitive when he was on Jordan is a testament to how good he was defensively.

First Bolded: Nobody said that about Big O. They said he was the best wing player, but Jerry West was the best 2 way wing player. Big O was not known for being a good defender. Neither were Penny or T-Mac. Pretending like they were good defenders is revisionist history at best.

Second Bolded: Actually, no, you're the one who is wrong:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fancy-stats/wp/2014/08/21/how-putting-gary-payton-on-michael-jordan-sooner-could-have-changed-the-1996-nba-finals/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.1507171ba2c2

Chicago won the the first three games of the series and were on the brink of a sweep, before George Karl finally made a key adjustment, allowing Payton, ĎThe Glove,í to guard Jordan.*Because Payton was battling a calf muscle injury, George Karl was hesitant to use Payton to defend Jordan, despite Paytonís pleas. It wasnít until Seattle was on the brink of elimination, down 3-0, that Karl finally relented.


Hersey Hawkins was definitely not a good defender. Your first link said he was a good defender because he averaged 2 steals per game. If that's the case both Clyde and Curry are the best defenders out of all our wings as they average the most steals.

valade16
06-08-2018, 04:52 PM
That is the best way to limit Curry. Oscar has the tools to body Curry up and make him work on both sides of the court. I have no doubt that Conley would do a respectable job against Curry as well.

I personally wouldn't have Grant on Malone the majority of the time either. I'd have Grant on Malone in short spurts where he can focus his energy on him, but then switch him to Chandler or LMA to allow my 3x DPOY (Howard) and 1x DPOY (Noah) onto him.

The only thing about causing Chandler to foul out really early is that Grant might actually still have to defend a little bit with LMA, which he's absolutely more than capable of doing. I'll gladly take that and make Karl Malone the only above-average defender on his team (Norm Van Lier isn't going to play over Curry). It'll be bad enough that Malone is guarded by 2 DPOY players and a 4x All Team Defensive player, but to force him to be the only defensive big left on the team would be debilitating for team Valade.

Despite all the evidence to the contrary. This statement is as empty as me saying Curry would lock up Big O. Actually, you're statement is less valid than mine because at least with mine there's nothing that factually disproves it like their is with yours.

Redrum187
06-08-2018, 04:57 PM
So you want to use Dwight in the way that whenever anybody tried to use him that way he threw a hissy fit and torpedoed team chemistry to the point where all the teams got rid of him for how bad he was?

As for your numbers, you don't want to use 2008 and 2012 Dwight because you know he didn't do as good against Chandler. Furthermore, Tyson's peak was 2011-2013, so you're not even using his peak vs. Dwight. The moment Chandler hit his peak he started shutting Dwight down.

Dwight's peak vs Chandler:
19.5 PPG | 14.7 RPG

Dwight's #'s vs peak Chandler:
14.2 PPG | 9.2 RPG

Look up the 3 years in a row Howard won DPOY. What years were they? Do you really think it's a coincidence I chose those years or I ignored the fact he 3-peated DPOY and chose those years because that's when he made Chandler score 6.7 points and 4.3 rebounds in 26 minutes of action? I mean, I can't blame you for thinking I used it because it was advantageous... I only brought up their peak head-to-head because you wanted to use CAREER head-to-head which is pointless as this is assuming each player is in their peak.

What's ironic is that you are saying I used the 3 years in a row Dwight was DPOY because Chandler was garbage in those years and it makes Howard look better, but you first used career head-to-head and it's somehow acceptable?

I've also explained that Chandler's peak was maintained over a 5-7 year range. Meaning, I could make a case that Chandler's peak was better in the same years as Dwight's Peak (which includes the Mavericks championship year) than in the 11-13 seasons you want to use. I can play the same game as you and say, YOU only want to use 11-13 season of Chandler because he was facing an out-of-peak Dwight and those numbers are better than 08-11 head-to-head numbers with Howard. The difference is, if you've watched Chandler, you'd know that 08-11 Chandler (which includes Championship year) is virtually identical to your 11-13 peak. While Chandler was DPOY after 2011, his defense didn't drastically improve... it was damn near the same, the only difference was that he played in NYC and they pushed it. He wasn't even All First Defensive Team the year he was DPOY for God's sake. I'll concede Chandler got more accolades in your 11-13 peak and it makes sense to use those years for his peak, but you have to concede that Chandler 08-09 is not significantly inferior (if at all) to 11-13 Chandler.

Redrum187
06-08-2018, 05:04 PM
Despite all the evidence to the contrary. This statement is as empty as me saying Curry would lock up Big O. Actually, you're statement is less valid than mine because at least with mine there's nothing that factually disproves it like their is with yours.

Curry isn't playing with the current warriors, and Conley isn't going to even be spending 20 minutes in the game. So I think it's a fair opinion to make that in the shorter time Conley defends Curry, he'll do a respectable job.

Oscar Robertson is a better defender and bigger/stronger/faster Curry. He's the one I want to be bodying up Curry, so it isn't really something worth arguing over for me. It only takes away from my biggest point that Oscar is going to defend (physically) Curry WAY better than Curry is going to defend Oscar.

mngopher35
06-08-2018, 05:18 PM
Why would I only use Grant when I have 2 DPOY I could throw at Malone? While Grant was a 4x All Defense Team player, he can "hide" on Tyson Chandler from time-to-time and take a break on the defensive end. When one big needs a break, I have another one who is fresh to throw at him.

When you mention an issue with perimeter defense, I assume you're speaking about team Valade? I would agree... Curry isn't going to limit Oscar whatsoever, and when Curry is forced to switch on Penny or TMac, there is no way a 6'2/6'3 skinny PG is going to stop them defensively.

Honestly I think it would be better to keep Dwight at the hoop and Grant on Malone. When Curry/Malone pick and roll you want Dwight still by the hoop imo. I think his paint presence is more valuable than his 1v1 defense like on a malone. I dunno Malone is an issue I guess, Ill think about your strategy more and read up I missed alot so far haha.

Yes I did mean team Valade. I think that is an area of weakness your team could expose overall. Like I said I need to read up before getting too much into it but if you can convince me you can really exploit the defense and contain Curry/Malone I could be swayed in this matchup. I do still lean valade pre reading up

Dunkapolooza
06-08-2018, 05:39 PM
i only want to talk about this section

Malone was 6'9 256 Dwight is 6 11 265 - without having bench press #s its hard to say Malone is stronger, both are physical freaks

Malone had a 28 inch vert Dwight had a 39.5 vert

I dont have Malones wingspan or quickness down a court, but im sure Dwight had a longer wingspan and was a little slower than Malone but not by alot

Malone could easily go around Dwight. He could step out for extended jumpers and you will find tape nowhere of Dwight being able to defend that. He was not quick footed at all. That's what I mean by athletics.

Dwight is soft. He's a soft man with a soft game and a soft disposition. He didn't dominate an era where he should have. Almost no HOF big men with any sort of physicality. Karl dominated in an era when the NBA had the most HOF big men.

Dwight has blown up every team and produced disappointing results anytime he was on a team where his post game was not featured. As the fourth option here he's going to be a locker-room nightmare. His effort is going to suck because it always does when he's not getting the ball a lot.

Dunkapolooza
06-08-2018, 05:41 PM
The idea that Oscar will win the match up against curry to me is not believable. Its missing the forest through the trees here.

Redrum187
06-08-2018, 05:54 PM
1). Curry can certainly guard Big O adequately. He just performed extremely well against James Harden, and he's a tougher guard than Big O. Not to mention you have the same problem. None of your perimeter players are very good at defense either, so who is guarding Curry?

2). Tyson in his prime shut down Dwight, so he's more than enough to guard him. Especially considering Dwight will be throwing a hissy fit and not trying since you don't plan to use him as the offensive focal point.

3). Cunningham will be guarding either Penny or T-Mac. I get it, he's an older player and he's white so everyone is going to think he sucks or he was un-athletic. But he was actually extremely athletic (his nickname was due to his athletic ability) and he won the ABA MVP. He's no scrub. Not to mention I have Mark Aguirre to come in, who played great defense for the Detroit "Bad Boy" Pistons, as well as Norm Van Lier, one of the best perimeter defenders ever.

The questions I have for you are:

1). Beyond simply having Big O/Penny/T-Mac go ISO what offense are you actually running?

2). Where is your spacing actually coming from?

3). Considering Karl Malone absolutely destroyed Horace Grant whenever they played, are you really going to keep him on Malone? Having my 2nd/3rd scoring option penciled in for 30 points on great efficiency will be awesome for my team.

4). How do you plan to stop a Curry/Malone pick and roll?

1.) Harden is NOT Oscar. Oscar carried teams and didn't shut down or give up in the playoffs. Even in his losses, Oscar still performed and never gave up. Harden also likes to jack up a ton of 3's when being defended by a smaller player... Oscar, while being able to shoot from 3, is going to be attacking the rim with little Curry on him. Also, Curry will be forced to switch throughout the game on Penny and TMac, both don't bode well for him in either scenario.

2.) I debunked the notion Chandler "shut down Dwight"... Maintained peak Chandler (11-13) who is virtually identical to 08-11 Chandler got obliterated and humiliated in Dwight's prime (their prime really). Scoring less than 7 points and just over 4 rebounds in 26 minutes of action for Chandler, to Dwights 19.5 points and 14+ rebounds is a far car from "shutting down" Dwight. Even in the years Chandler "shut down" out-of-peak Howard, Howard scored way more and still had a huge advantage on the boards. Peek Chandler was still vastly inferior to out-of-peek Howard... hell, Chandler was even inferior to my backup center as well.

3.) I mean, Cunningham was a good player in his day. Being a 6'6 power-forward who can jump doesn't necessarily mean they are athletic and have the foot-speed to keep up with Penny or TMac. We can hide behind stereotypes aren't always true, but the reality is, Cunningham didn't defend players like TMac or Penny, and he would get torched on defense and hurt your team on offense. We know the real reason why Cunningham is starting and it has zero to do with his jumping and athletic ability.
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1.) We know ISO is important come playoff time. While people may not like it, it's proven teams that are equipped with great ISO players (take the Rockets for example) win. The offense is constructed with versatility in mind. Every player on the team but Howard are great passers/play-makers and can initiate the fastbreak or the offense in a half-court set. We plan to use the passing skillset of the starting unit and the bench to tire players out defensively and to force critical switches with Curry. Curry doesn't have anyone to hide on and he is (in my opinion) the best option on team Valade. By forcing Curry to play transition defense and bang with Oscar/Penny/TMac, we want to 1.) tire him out 2.) foul Chandler out by having to cover for the lack of wing defense on team Valade. We know Chandler couldn't do anything to prime Howard on the defense or offensive end, so when the bench comes in, we want them to space the floor (they are elite snipers) and have Howard go to town on Chandler.

Howard never had teammates like Oscar/Penny/TMac in his prime, and he was frustrated that guys like Hedo were getting more shot attempts than him (rightfully so). With the team constructed, and the selflessness of the team, Howard won't mind allowing Oscar/Penny/TMac do their thing offensively as he focus on doing what he does best, rebound and defend. It's when the bench comes in and spaces the floor out even further that Howard will be called to feast on Chandler. I don't expect him to score 20 points a game like he did in his prime, but it'll be mid-to-high teens with a boatload of rebounds and blocked shots.

2.) My spacing is superior than yours. You have the greatest 3 point shooter of all time followed by mediocre and subpar 3 point shooters. You do have a couple guys that could space by shooting the midrange, but not nearly enough 3 point shooters.

Penny Hardaway averaged 4.8 3-point attempts, connecting on a more than respectable 38.6% of them. In fact, Hardaway's career playoff 3-point shooting blows his regular season percentages out of the water. Hardaway was more focus in the playoffs which is indicative by his increase scoring output and 3-point shooting percentages. Usually players are noticeably less efficient and/or score less in the playoffs, but Hardaway upped his game. Furthermore, Hardaway was a great midrange shooter. Shooting 3's isn't the only way to space the floor.

Oscar Robertson was a a fantastic midrange shooter. He was a great free-throw shooter as well. At a time when guys like Cunningham were taking 20+ shots to get a little over 20 points a game, Robertson was highly efficient, attacking the rim, hitting his midrange shots, and making his free throws. Due to the high correlation between free throw shooting percentage and 3-point making ability, I'd say Oscar would be a 38%-40% 3 point shooter in today's game. I wouldn't be relying on his 3-point shooting much though, I want him to torture Curry in the post or in transition. He is definitely a floor spacer.

Tracy McGrady averaged 3.9 3-point shot attempts making 37.3% of them. He could literally score from anywhere. Being guarded by Cunningham, it's hard to say what TMac would be doing more of: pulling out and shooting open 3's or blowing by Cunningham for an easy 2. Either way, McGrady is more than capable of spreading the floor.

Horace Grant was a great midrange shooter. While he didn't shoot many 3's, he doesn't need to in order to spread the floor.

Then comes my bench. The bench actually spaces the floor up even more.

3-year Prime

Mike Conley: 5.2 attempts @ 38.4%
Hersey Hawkins: 2.9 attempts @ 40.3%
Khris Middleton: 4.6 attempts @ 38.3%
Andrei Kirilenko: 2.1 attempts @ 32.2%

3.) Dwight would be the primary defender against Malone. Grant will guard him in spurts and will focus his energy on defense. Noah will come in when Dwight goes to the bench and take over. There will be a Defensive Player of the year on the court at all times.

4.) There isn't "stopping" Curry/Malone. And if I didn't have the defensive personnel that I do, it would be incredibly difficult to contain them. Fortunately for me, my bigs are very agile/athletic to do as good a job as any to limit Curry/Malone as much as possible. This is why one of my strategies is to make Curry work excruciatingly hard on defense against Oscar/Penny/TMac. I want to force Curry to switch so he doesn't catch a breath. Being physical with Curry has proven to be effective in the playoffs. My trio has the athleticism, speed, and strength to do it, thereby making Curry less dangerous.

Redrum187
06-08-2018, 06:08 PM
First Bolded: I showed you the top end scoring for each of my players to demonstrate that all could score more than your bench yet all were able to also be complimentary pieces on championship rosters.

Billy Cunningham played a complimentary role on a championship team, Mark Aguirre played a complimentary role on a championship team, Steve Smith played a complimentary role on a championship team. Heck, even Clyde Drexler was able to play a complimentary role on a championship team. All my guys know how to fit their skillsets into a championship squad.

The point is, you couldn't ignore any of my players because if you try they can still torch you when needed.

Second Bolded: No, teams don't need that. But he isn't that at all. Billy Cunningham already proved that he could be a complimentary piece on a championship team. He could defend, rebound and score. He was a complete player. He won the ABA MVP. This isn't some scrub.

Third Bolded: Nothing I said was alternative facts: T-Mac is a career 52 TS% player. The reason his TS% is .540 from 01-03 is because one time he had a .564 TS%, but other than that he never had a TS% higher than .532. So in 15 seasons in the league you want to believe he's a .540 TS% player because 1 time in 15 seasons he managed to score that efficiently?


We both have 3 primary scorers, mine are more efficient and you don't have a single person who could slow down any of them.

What was Cunningham's role then? What is his role on your team? While it benefits your team for Cunningham to use his non-peek years (you want his complimentary years) because he isn't your number 1 scoring option now, he's still a negative on the offensive end. He doesn't defend faster and more athletic wings better because he isn't jacking up as many shots. What does he do on your team?! lol

Your argument was that your bench players can score more points than my bench players if they take a ton more shots? No kidding... I could outscore LeBron James/Kevin Durant/James Harden if I were to take 500 shots more than them in a game too. You're saying they won't be used as a go-to-scorer, that's fine... what does your bench do? Norm isnt' going to defend as he won't see any court time with Curry there... LMA can shoot inefficient 2's but he isn't going to defend at an elite level.

Alternative fact in the sense that you're posting irrelevant facts that have nothing to do with this game. This is a peak game and you use career TS% to bring down TMac's efficiency who is less than .020 TS% from Drexler in their 3-year peak. And you used Howard scoring 16.5 points a game when in his peak he never did that against Chandler or in the regular season against all other teams. How is that not an alternative fact? Fox News couldn't give out alternative facts any better.

As for the bold: If 2 DPOYs, a 4x All Defense Team, AK47 can't "slow down" any of your players, then lets stop the game now and declare you the winner. If they can't slow your starters down, who the hell can? lol

valade16
06-09-2018, 10:34 AM
1.) Harden is NOT Oscar. Oscar carried teams and didn't shut down or give up in the playoffs. Even in his losses, Oscar still performed and never gave up. Harden also likes to jack up a ton of 3's when being defended by a smaller player... Oscar, while being able to shoot from 3, is going to be attacking the rim with little Curry on him. Also, Curry will be forced to switch throughout the game on Penny and TMac, both don't bode well for him in either scenario.

2.) I debunked the notion Chandler "shut down Dwight"... Maintained peak Chandler (11-13) who is virtually identical to 08-11 Chandler got obliterated and humiliated in Dwight's prime (their prime really). Scoring less than 7 points and just over 4 rebounds in 26 minutes of action for Chandler, to Dwights 19.5 points and 14+ rebounds is a far car from "shutting down" Dwight. Even in the years Chandler "shut down" out-of-peak Howard, Howard scored way more and still had a huge advantage on the boards. Peek Chandler was still vastly inferior to out-of-peek Howard... hell, Chandler was even inferior to my backup center as well.

3.) I mean, Cunningham was a good player in his day. Being a 6'6 power-forward who can jump doesn't necessarily mean they are athletic and have the foot-speed to keep up with Penny or TMac. We can hide behind stereotypes aren't always true, but the reality is, Cunningham didn't defend players like TMac or Penny, and he would get torched on defense and hurt your team on offense. We know the real reason why Cunningham is starting and it has zero to do with his jumping and athletic ability.
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1.) We know ISO is important come playoff time. While people may not like it, it's proven teams that are equipped with great ISO players (take the Rockets for example) win. The offense is constructed with versatility in mind. Every player on the team but Howard are great passers/play-makers and can initiate the fastbreak or the offense in a half-court set. We plan to use the passing skillset of the starting unit and the bench to tire players out defensively and to force critical switches with Curry. Curry doesn't have anyone to hide on and he is (in my opinion) the best option on team Valade. By forcing Curry to play transition defense and bang with Oscar/Penny/TMac, we want to 1.) tire him out 2.) foul Chandler out by having to cover for the lack of wing defense on team Valade. We know Chandler couldn't do anything to prime Howard on the defense or offensive end, so when the bench comes in, we want them to space the floor (they are elite snipers) and have Howard go to town on Chandler.

Howard never had teammates like Oscar/Penny/TMac in his prime, and he was frustrated that guys like Hedo were getting more shot attempts than him (rightfully so). With the team constructed, and the selflessness of the team, Howard won't mind allowing Oscar/Penny/TMac do their thing offensively as he focus on doing what he does best, rebound and defend. It's when the bench comes in and spaces the floor out even further that Howard will be called to feast on Chandler. I don't expect him to score 20 points a game like he did in his prime, but it'll be mid-to-high teens with a boatload of rebounds and blocked shots.

2.) My spacing is superior than yours. You have the greatest 3 point shooter of all time followed by mediocre and subpar 3 point shooters. You do have a couple guys that could space by shooting the midrange, but not nearly enough 3 point shooters.

Penny Hardaway averaged 4.8 3-point attempts, connecting on a more than respectable 38.6% of them. In fact, Hardaway's career playoff 3-point shooting blows his regular season percentages out of the water. Hardaway was more focus in the playoffs which is indicative by his increase scoring output and 3-point shooting percentages. Usually players are noticeably less efficient and/or score less in the playoffs, but Hardaway upped his game. Furthermore, Hardaway was a great midrange shooter. Shooting 3's isn't the only way to space the floor.

Oscar Robertson was a a fantastic midrange shooter. He was a great free-throw shooter as well. At a time when guys like Cunningham were taking 20+ shots to get a little over 20 points a game, Robertson was highly efficient, attacking the rim, hitting his midrange shots, and making his free throws. Due to the high correlation between free throw shooting percentage and 3-point making ability, I'd say Oscar would be a 38%-40% 3 point shooter in today's game. I wouldn't be relying on his 3-point shooting much though, I want him to torture Curry in the post or in transition. He is definitely a floor spacer.

Tracy McGrady averaged 3.9 3-point shot attempts making 37.3% of them. He could literally score from anywhere. Being guarded by Cunningham, it's hard to say what TMac would be doing more of: pulling out and shooting open 3's or blowing by Cunningham for an easy 2. Either way, McGrady is more than capable of spreading the floor.

Horace Grant was a great midrange shooter. While he didn't shoot many 3's, he doesn't need to in order to spread the floor.

Then comes my bench. The bench actually spaces the floor up even more.

3-year Prime

Mike Conley: 5.2 attempts @ 38.4%
Hersey Hawkins: 2.9 attempts @ 40.3%
Khris Middleton: 4.6 attempts @ 38.3%
Andrei Kirilenko: 2.1 attempts @ 32.2%

3.) Dwight would be the primary defender against Malone. Grant will guard him in spurts and will focus his energy on defense. Noah will come in when Dwight goes to the bench and take over. There will be a Defensive Player of the year on the court at all times.

4.) There isn't "stopping" Curry/Malone. And if I didn't have the defensive personnel that I do, it would be incredibly difficult to contain them. Fortunately for me, my bigs are very agile/athletic to do as good a job as any to limit Curry/Malone as much as possible. This is why one of my strategies is to make Curry work excruciatingly hard on defense against Oscar/Penny/TMac. I want to force Curry to switch so he doesn't catch a breath. Being physical with Curry has proven to be effective in the playoffs. My trio has the athleticism, speed, and strength to do it, thereby making Curry less dangerous.

First Bolded: Harden is not Big O, you're right about that. When it comes to a one on one matchup, he's tougher to guard. And Curry was able to effectively limit Harden in ISO situations, he'd do even better vs. Big O.

Second Bolded: The real reason Cunningham is on my team is because I picked him. I had several opportunities to trade for other players to replace him and didn't, because he was better than them. He was an MVP player, he is on the Top 50 greatest players ever list and is in the Hall of Fame. He is no scrub.

Third Bolded: So your strategy is ISO ball. You make a pretty bad point considering your example is Houston, which just lost in the playoffs to a Curry led team that beat them by not playing ISO. My offense is more cohesive and doesn't rely on ISO ball, yours does.

Fourth Bolded: Howard did actually have teammates on your level. He played with Kobe, Pau and Nash; and that's was when he was at his most whiny. Saying you're going to ask Dwight to focus on rebounding and defense are the exact things he got whiny about. Prime Dwight doesn't want to just rebound and defend, he wants to get post ups.

Fifth Bolded: I'm counting on your bench playing, because you said you're entire strategy is forcing Curry to switch to guard either Penny, T-Mac, or Big O, but Curry wont' have to do that if you have your bench guys in for spacing. I can have Curry guard any of Hawkins, Conley, or Middleton, which he is more than capable of doing. So by all means, give your bench a lot of minutes, that's only helping me.

Not to mention my team has a lot of 3pt shooting. Clyde Drexler shot 35% from 3 alongside Hakeem, Mark Aguirre who shot 34% from 3 in Detroit, Steve Smith shot 36% from 3, Antawn Jamison shot 37% in his peak as well. Heck, LMA shot 35% from 3 the one year he shot them.

Sixth Bolded: So if Dwight is guarding Malone, that means all your arguments about Howard dominating Chandler are irrelevant, because he won't be guarding him. So now Tyson is going to dominate Horace Grant instead and Dwight will try to guard Malone. So Curry and Malone will be running a PNR 30 feet from the basket, so your rim protector will be 30 feet from the hoop trying to guard Curry in space on a switch or trying to trail Malone to the basket. I love my chances there.


I have an actual offensive identity and a strategy. Your offensive strategy thus far seems to be all-star game tactics, have 1 of your wings go ISO and hope you outscore the other team. That doesn't work very well, especially against such a perfect offensive combo like a Curry/Malone Pick and Roll.

valade16
06-09-2018, 10:41 AM
What was Cunningham's role then? What is his role on your team? While it benefits your team for Cunningham to use his non-peek years (you want his complimentary years) because he isn't your number 1 scoring option now, he's still a negative on the offensive end. He doesn't defend faster and more athletic wings better because he isn't jacking up as many shots. What does he do on your team?! lol

Your argument was that your bench players can score more points than my bench players if they take a ton more shots? No kidding... I could outscore LeBron James/Kevin Durant/James Harden if I were to take 500 shots more than them in a game too. You're saying they won't be used as a go-to-scorer, that's fine... what does your bench do? Norm isnt' going to defend as he won't see any court time with Curry there... LMA can shoot inefficient 2's but he isn't going to defend at an elite level.

Alternative fact in the sense that you're posting irrelevant facts that have nothing to do with this game. This is a peak game and you use career TS% to bring down TMac's efficiency who is less than .020 TS% from Drexler in their 3-year peak. And you used Howard scoring 16.5 points a game when in his peak he never did that against Chandler or in the regular season against all other teams. How is that not an alternative fact? Fox News couldn't give out alternative facts any better.

As for the bold: If 2 DPOYs, a 4x All Defense Team, AK47 can't "slow down" any of your players, then lets stop the game now and declare you the winner. If they can't slow your starters down, who the hell can? lol

First Bolded: Cunningham's role was to hustle, rebound and to help take the scoring role off Greer and Wilt. He did that excellently, and will do so on my team as well.

Second Bolded: No, my argument was my bench players were better scorers period. They could score more points on the same number of shots as your bench. Difference is, nobody is scared of your bench scoring other than in a supporting role. I'm not scared of Middleton creating his own shot, nor AK47. Their points are entirely dependent on teammates. That is not true of my team. All of my bench is capable of scoring independent of assistance from teammates.

Third Bolded: I'm using T-Mac's actual numbers. If you want to use his peak TS% it's still lower than my 3rd leading scorer (and light year's behind my #1 and #2 scorer's efficiency), and that's not even taking into account that inflated TS% is because he had 1 year of decent TS% and 2 years where he was his usual 52% self. I'm betting the 1 year of efficient scoring is the anomaly and not the 14 other years of inefficiency.

Cunningham has more of a role on my team than Penny/Big O/T-Mac all do on yours. They were all best with the ball in their hands creating for themselves and now they're all on the same team. You yourself said your offense is ISO so while Big O or T-Mac is going ISO the other two players are standing around doing nothing.

Redrum187
06-09-2018, 04:28 PM
First Bolded: Harden is not Big O, you're right about that. When it comes to a one on one matchup, he's tougher to guard. And Curry was able to effectively limit Harden in ISO situations, he'd do even better vs. Big O.

Based on what? The only people downplaying Oscar are you and your brother (who coincidentally has Harden on his team). You're saying Curry effectively limited Harden when Curry isn't even known to be an above-average defender and in the same breath saying Harden is the tougher player to guard? Strange how the "tougher" player to guard was limited by such a weak defender, especially in an All Time sense, in Stephen Curry. Furthermore, you don't think Curry being on an All Time great defensive and offensive team had anything to do with Harden giving up in the playoffs? It's an insane assumption to make that because the Golden State Warriors limited Harden that Curry would somehow limit Oscar in the same way when your wing defense is absolutely garbage in comparison. Furthermore, Curry would do an even worse job defending Penny/TMac on the switch.

I guess we just have to respectfully disagree that Harden is the "tougher" player to guard in the playoffs. I'm not sure many would agree with you considering Harden's history.


Second Bolded: The real reason Cunningham is on my team is because I picked him. I had several opportunities to trade for other players to replace him and didn't, because he was better than them. He was an MVP player, he is on the Top 50 greatest players ever list and is in the Hall of Fame. He is no scrub.

Jumping Joe is in the Hall of Fame as well. Maybe 50 years ago Cunningham was in the top 50, but I'm not sure anyone believes he would be able to hang offensively and especially defensively with contemporary wings.


Third Bolded: So your strategy is ISO ball. You make a pretty bad point considering your example is Houston, which just lost in the playoffs to a Curry led team that beat them by not playing ISO. My offense is more cohesive and doesn't rely on ISO ball, yours does.

Every team, including the Golden State Warriors play some ISO ball. I never said that was my sole offense. I wanted to create a versatile team that COULD play ISO (which is important in the playoffs), COULD pass the ball around (my team has better play-makers and passers than even Golden State today), would be long and athetlic enough to to run the fast break in addition to multiple players capable of initiating it, and of course I wanted slashers who were also capable of knocking it down from 3 to stretch the defenses out. You ignored the fact that essentially everyone on my team are elite passers in their peak and that I'd use ball movement, just as the Warriors do.


3-Year Peek Assist #s

Oscar Robertson: 10.6 assists/game (didn't record turnovers at the time)
Penny Hardaway: 6.7 assists/game (only 2.9 turnovers)
Tracy McGrady: 5.1 assists/game (only 2.6 turnovers)
Horace Grant: 2.9 assists/game (only 1.4 turnovers)

The starting unit has an incredible assist rate and ultra low turnover rate. Now take a look at my bench:


3-Year Peek Assist #s

Mike Conley: 6.0 assist/game (only 1.9 turnovers)
Hersey Hawkins: 3.3 assist/game (2.4 turnovers)
Khris Middleton: 4.0 assist/game (only 2.3 turnovers)
Andrei Kirilenko: 3.6 assist/game (2.7 turnovers)
Joakim Noah: 4.1 assist/game (2.2 turnovers

Let's add all this passing up and turnovers up (since they didn't record turnovers in Oscars' day, I'll be liberal and assign him 3.6 turnovers which is the highest amongst all the players on the team):


Total Assists: 46.3
Total Turnovers: 22.0
Assist/Turnover Ration: 2.10 assist/turnover

This isn't just my starting unit, this is the entire roster (minus Dwight) that has over a 2/1 assist/turnover ratio who got plenty of them as well in their prime. I won't pretend I won't ever use ISO, every team does in the playoffs, but it's the passing, speed, athleticism, and shooting that makes the offense so versatile and potent. And with Norm Van Lier being the only guy who was an elite wing defender who can't even get playing time, I don't see how they contain my team.


Fourth Bolded: Howard did actually have teammates on your level. He played with Kobe, Pau and Nash; and that's was when he was at his most whiny. Saying you're going to ask Dwight to focus on rebounding and defense are the exact things he got whiny about. Prime Dwight doesn't want to just rebound and defend, he wants to get post ups.

First of all, no, Howard didn't play with anyone on Oscar/Penny/TMac's level in his prime. I know you want to keep using out-of-prime Howard years because it helps your narrative that Howard was "shut down" by Chandler (even though he scored way more points and grabbed way more rebounds) but please stop doing that. The rules of this game are to use peak years, and when Howard went to LA was the start of his noticeable decline. Furthermore, Kobe Bryant was 34 years old, not in his peak like Oscar/Penny/TMac are in this game. Nash was also injured for almost half the entire season and he was 38 years old for God's sake! lol You want to compare a 34 year old out-of-prime Kobe and a 38 year old grandpa who couldn't play more than 50 games in the single season Howard was in L.A. to PEAK Oscar Robertson, PEAK Penny Hardaway, and PEAK Tracy McGrady?!


Fifth Bolded: I'm counting on your bench playing, because you said you're entire strategy is forcing Curry to switch to guard either Penny, T-Mac, or Big O, but Curry wont' have to do that if you have your bench guys in for spacing. I can have Curry guard any of Hawkins, Conley, or Middleton, which he is more than capable of doing. So by all means, give your bench a lot of minutes, that's only helping me.

Having no one to adequately defend Oscar/Penny/TMac, I'm not surprised you'd look forward to my bench coming in. Curry is about 6'2/6'3, Khris Middleton is 6'8... Middleton isn't just a catch-and-shoot player, he's shown he's more than capable of driving and playmaking. I'd love Curry try to guard someone 5-6 inches taller than him on my bench.

None of my players are going to play 48 minutes a game, so it's nice to know that when I do sub someone out on the starting unit, that my team won't skip a beat.


Not to mention my team has a lot of 3pt shooting. Clyde Drexler shot 35% from 3 alongside Hakeem, Mark Aguirre who shot 34% from 3 in Detroit, Steve Smith shot 36% from 3, Antawn Jamison shot 37% in his peak as well. Heck, LMA shot 35% from 3 the one year he shot them.

This is great! If you want to use out-of-prime Clyde Drexler's 3-point shooting years where he averaged 35% (94-95 to 96-97), I'm cool with that. TMac was a great defender in his peak, and now that Drexler is downgraded to his 32-34 year old self, it'll be easier to contain him.

Mark Aguirre never shot 34% from 3-point in a 3-year peak in Detroit (or anywhere). If you want to use out-of-prime Mark Aguirre numbers in Detroit where he DID shoot better from 3-point, I'll gladly take that as well. He averaged 12 points 3.7 rebounts,1.8 assists, and shot the 3 at 29.7% from 91-93... Or you could use his last year where he shot from 3 the best in his entire career... but then his 3-year peak would be: 10.7 points, 3.1 rebounts, 1.8 assists and only shooting 29.2% from 3.

Your starting unit doesn't have enough spacers to keep the defense honest. Your bench bench player bigs were better than your wings at shooting 3's... the problem is your 2nd best player is also a big so the bench won't see much time. Your lack of overall team spacing is underwhelming, which would make it easier to limit the Curry/Malone pick and roll with more help defense (in addition to the 2x DPOY players and a 4x All Defender + Oscar banging Curry up all series).

I'm also noticing a theme here... you are using out-of-prime stats for me, you use singular seasons of your players when they are out-of-prime where they shot better from 3, and the players who were average 3-point shooters are all on your bench. I'll gladly let you take out Malone for LMA or Jamison... both were incredibly inefficient. I suspect you'll play Malone heavy minutes, so for about 8-10 minutes a game you get a one-dimensional inefficient PF to take his place so he can shoot a couple of 3's. Sounds good to me!


Sixth Bolded: So if Dwight is guarding Malone, that means all your arguments about Howard dominating Chandler are irrelevant, because he won't be guarding him. So now Tyson is going to dominate Horace Grant instead and Dwight will try to guard Malone. So Curry and Malone will be running a PNR 30 feet from the basket, so your rim protector will be 30 feet from the hoop trying to guard Curry in space on a switch or trying to trail Malone to the basket. I love my chances there.

Hahahaha, what? Reread what you wrote in the bold.

Just because Dwight defends Malone (in addition to Grant and Noah) doesn't mean that Dwight won't obliterate Chandler offensively like he did in his 3-year peak. Also, Tyson Chandler never dominated anyone offensively... what are you talking about?

You're essentially saying that LMA could guard Dwight Howard in an earlier post, but Horace Grant (4x All Defense Team) can't hold Chandler defensively?

You're trying to make me fully commit to either using Grant only or Dwight only on Malone. If I pick Grant only, you'll say, "Oh look at their career head-to-head numbers! Malone raped Grant!"... if only commit to Dwight guarding Malone, then it's "Tyson Chandler is going to rape Horace Grant and somehow Chandler will do a better job defensively against Howard because Howard is defending Malone!" Howard guarding Malone has nothing to do with Chandler's inability to limit Dwight Howard defensively.

I'll repeat though... Grant will play Malone in spurts, while Howard and Noah (combined) will spend more time overall than Grant in defending Malone. All 3 defensive players will be taking turns defending Malone. Giving an offensive player multiple defensive looks is the best way to slow them down. Either way, I'll take my chances with "Tyson dominating Horace" over Grant singnle-handedly having to guard Malone... but I don't have to chose any of those options. I choose multiple defensive looks, with Dwight getting the lion's share of the time defending Malone.



I have an actual offensive identity and a strategy. Your offensive strategy thus far seems to be all-star game tactics, have 1 of your wings go ISO and hope you outscore the other team. That doesn't work very well, especially against such a perfect offensive combo like a Curry/Malone Pick and Roll.

You lack the complimentary pieces to make your offensive strategy effective. Clyde and Cunningham (along with your bench wings) don't allow for the killer Curry/Malone pick and roll you could have if you had better spacing.

Also, I can repeatedly tell you my offensive strategy but I can't make you actually read it. You read "ISO ball only" when I only mentioned the importance of ISO ball in the playoffs. It's as if you disagree that ISO ball is an important element in playoff basketball and even the Warriors play ISO ball in key situations.

Lucky.
06-09-2018, 04:31 PM
Close match-up for me but think Iím leaning Valade. Really like Big O-TMac-Dwight. As much as I like Penny I wish there was a different SG there.

Redrum187
06-09-2018, 04:50 PM
By the way, since Cunningham is a hustle player on the starting unit who played PF/SF who didn't have a great shot, is he hustling out on the the perimeter on offense? If so, what business does he have out there when he couldn't even shoot 2's efficiently?

Is Cunningham hustling in the paint (which is where he mostly played) right next to Tyson Chandler and Karl Malone? Do you still plan to use the Curry/Malone pick and roll with Cunningham in the way too?

Dunkapolooza
06-09-2018, 04:56 PM
RR ak can't slow down any of his players... He can't guard curry or Malone that's for damn sure. No where near quick enough for curry and those handles and no where near strong or physical enough for malone. I think Clyde is too fast and quick too. Ak guards stretch 4 and 3 best.

NYKalltheway
06-09-2018, 06:56 PM
I think Seagulls win in 5 here.

GREATNESS ONE
06-09-2018, 07:42 PM
I think Seagulls win in 5 here.

I got RR in 6/7

Redrum187
06-10-2018, 02:03 AM
RR ak can't slow down any of his players... He can't guard curry or Malone that's for damn sure. No where near quick enough for curry and those handles and no where near strong or physical enough for malone. I think Clyde is too fast and quick too. Ak guards stretch 4 and 3 best.

First you say Oscar Robertson is the 4th best player in the series (after Curry/Malone/Drexler)... I ignored it because I wasn't sure if you were serious. Now you're saying AK47 couldn't guard any of his players... The Jazz didn't get the memo because he was used as the primary defender against LeBron James. The Celtics didn't get the memo either, they had him cover Paul Pierce. If you saw AK47 play in his 3-year peak you'd know he was considered a top 5 defender in the NBA at that time. He's a 3 time All Defense Team wing defender. Athletic and quick wings wasn't something he's never seen before in the way it is for Cunningham.

What's hilarious is that you make no mention of Cunningham's inability to guard TMac. I mean, AK47 is night and day a better defender than Cunningham and was actually used to guard elite wings Drexler's size (LeBron and Pierce are about 1 inch taller than Drexler). There aren't many wings as athletic as today's wings, much less on the level of Tracy McGrady, but I'm sure you think Cunningham would do a superb job on defense, huh? :)

AK47 wasn't just a great wing defender either, he was probably the greatest shot-blocking wing in NBA history. He averaged 3.0 blocks/game and 1.7 steals/game in his 3 year peak. He got many of those blocks on help-defense as well. When Curry drives to the rim or the times Grant is guarding Malone, AK47 could come over and help protect the rim.

Speaking of the rim... I would argue that AK47 was a better rim protector and shot blocker than anyone on Valade's team (though I'll concede Malone and Chandler were good man-to-man defenders).

3-year Peaks

Andrei Kirilenko: 3.0 blocks/game
Karl Malone: 0.7 blocks/game
Tyson Chandler: 1.2 blocks/game

AK47 blocked over 50% more shots than Malone and Chandler combined! Hell, Tracy McGrady even averaged more blocks than Karl Malone in his 3 year peak (1.1 blocks/game).

With the penetraters on my team, it's paramount to have a great rim protector, especially when your wing defense is noticeably weak. Would you at least agree with this statement?

dhopisthename
06-10-2018, 12:56 PM
this is a really good matchup. However for me, Oscar-penny-Tmac just seems like it has to many overlapping skills to be truly maximized. Kinda like the Lebron-wade duo, but with an extra guy and not the same talent. if you put Dwight on Malone like RR wants to do that just pulls him from the paint. I think its much better to leave him on Dwight and trust Grant to do his best on Malone. Curry isn't a great cover for any of those guys, but its not like any of those guys are known defensive stoppers either. I wouldn't be surprised for many if this game fell down how you feel about Cunningham with some focusing on his inefficiencies while some liking his pretty insane stats.



*side note shouldn't cunningham have to play 30 minutes or do you get a pass since RR's team isn't playing by the rules either.

Redrum187
06-10-2018, 02:35 PM
this is a really good matchup. However for me, Oscar-penny-Tmac just seems like it has to many overlapping skills to be truly maximized. Kinda like the Lebron-wade duo, but with an extra guy and not the same talent. if you put Dwight on Malone like RR wants to do that just pulls him from the paint. I think its much better to leave him on Dwight and trust Grant to do his best on Malone. Curry isn't a great cover for any of those guys, but its not like any of those guys are known defensive stoppers either. I wouldn't be surprised for many if this game fell down how you feel about Cunningham with some focusing on his inefficiencies while some liking his pretty insane stats.



*side note shouldn't cunningham have to play 30 minutes or do you get a pass since RR's team isn't playing by the rules either.

While people don't know Oscar/Penny/TMac to be Kawhi Leonard or Scottie Pippen on wing defense, they were still known for being above-average defenders. Furthermore, with Curry being the only threat from 3, it'll make guarding Clyde and Cunningham a bit easier to defend as well. Everyone knows the blue prints to limit Curry in the playoffs, play physical with him, Oscar Robertson in real life even mentioned this.

I heard the criticism of "overlapping" skills during the draft. Is passing/play-making, rebounding (they are all above-average rebounders), being an above average defender, being athletic, and having a good shoot really something you DON'T want all your players to have? By the way, those who think this way, please answer... I don't mean to ask this rhetorically.

Before LeBron and Wade teamed up, he was a 32.9% 3-point shooter for his career (Penny shot 38.6% on 4.8 attempts in his playoff peak). Wade was a 28.9% 3-point shooter (TMac was a 37.3% 3-point shooter in his peak). Was the fact LeBron and Wade were both good defenders, great rebounders, good play-makers, and both athletic hurt them? Absolutely not... what hindered them was their spacing. LeBron James adapted his game and worked on his shot. From the time he went to Miami, LeBron has shot 35.9% from 3.

When people use the cliche that they have "overlapping skillsets", are they wanting some of their players to be crappier passers? Do they want them to not be able to rebound extremely well? Do they want them to be average or below average defenders? Do they want them to have a terrible shot? What skills do Oscar/Penny/TMac need to be worse at so that they aren't criticized for having "overlapping skills"?

GREATNESS ONE
06-10-2018, 04:28 PM
Lmfao @ the usual ďclickĒ votes

KnicksorBust
06-10-2018, 05:00 PM
I'm reformatting my computer but I'll post a write-up asap. I just want to mention that I have 2 DPOY players as well as a 4x All Defensive Team player to throw at his best (or 2nd best) player in Karl Malone. Big O, Penny, and TMac were all great defenders in their prime who would slow and make life a little harder for Curry and Drexler. When I sub in players from the bench, the defense and shooting gets even deadlier. Conley was considered the 2nd best defensive PG (behind CP3) during his peak, AK47 was a multiple time All Defensive Team player as well who was an excellent shot blocker. Khris Middleton is also no slouch on defense. And of course there is Hersey Hawkins... you know... the guy the Seahawks put on Michael Jordan instead of Gary Payton in a playoff game because he was shown he was capable of giving him fits.

I don't even really want to do a write up about how to limit Billy Cunningham's offense... I want to entice him to jack up shots like he did in real life and be Valade's true #1 scoring option.

First Bolded: As evidenced by their combined 0 Defensive teams. None of them were more than average at best defensively.

Second Bolded: Yes, the Sonics put Hawkins on MJ to start the series, and they went in an 0-3 hole and Hawkins did so bad guarding MJ they had to switch and put GP on him. The best defensive achievement of Hawkins career was getting benched, he is certainly not a + on defense.

This post almost made me stop reading and vote valade but the bball nerd kept going.

KnicksorBust
06-10-2018, 05:09 PM
hmmm Valade I think has more top talent but this matchup is interesting. I actually am pretty high on Oscar/Tmac compared to some I think... Well maybe not Tmac around here. I think there is a little bit of an issue on the perimeter defensively.

I can't decide exactly what I think about Malone here. Valade makes some good points but with Chandler/Dwight down low will there be enough room to operate in the same way? I know he has beaten grant but in this matchup I'm wondering exactly how you plan to use him.

Explain to me how you guys plan to attack some of these weaknesses the numbers/awards etc. expose within the matchup

Why would I only use Grant when I have 2 DPOY I could throw at Malone? While Grant was a 4x All Defense Team player, he can "hide" on Tyson Chandler from time-to-time and take a break on the defensive end. When one big needs a break, I have another one who is fresh to throw at him.

When you mention an issue with perimeter defense, I assume you're speaking about team Valade? I would agree... Curry isn't going to limit Oscar whatsoever, and when Curry is forced to switch on Penny or TMac, there is no way a 6'2/6'3 skinny PG is going to stop them defensively.

Then this made me want to vote for RR. Honestly I watched all of warriors games in the wcf and finals and he did nothing against lebron and I think Penny and tmac would eat him down low. That's if he does well against Oscar which is not a guarantee either.

KnicksorBust
06-10-2018, 05:09 PM
But I kept reading

KnicksorBust
06-10-2018, 05:12 PM
null

Glad u didn't let him get away with that. Hawkins was not switched on to MJ. That is an egregious mistake.

KnicksorBust
06-10-2018, 05:13 PM
What was Cunningham's role then? What is his role on your team? While it benefits your team for Cunningham to use his non-peek years (you want his complimentary years) because he isn't your number 1 scoring option now, he's still a negative on the offensive end. He doesn't defend faster and more athletic wings better because he isn't jacking up as many shots. What does he do on your team?! lol

Your argument was that your bench players can score more points than my bench players if they take a ton more shots? No kidding... I could outscore LeBron James/Kevin Durant/James Harden if I were to take 500 shots more than them in a game too. You're saying they won't be used as a go-to-scorer, that's fine... what does your bench do? Norm isnt' going to defend as he won't see any court time with Curry there... LMA can shoot inefficient 2's but he isn't going to defend at an elite level.

Alternative fact in the sense that you're posting irrelevant facts that have nothing to do with this game. This is a peak game and you use career TS% to bring down TMac's efficiency who is less than .020 TS% from Drexler in their 3-year peak. And you used Howard scoring 16.5 points a game when in his peak he never did that against Chandler or in the regular season against all other teams. How is that not an alternative fact? Fox News couldn't give out alternative facts any better.

As for the bold: If 2 DPOYs, a 4x All Defense Team, AK47 can't "slow down" any of your players, then lets stop the game now and declare you the winner. If they can't slow your starters down, who the hell can? lol

First Bolded: Cunningham's role was to hustle, rebound and to help take the scoring role off Greer and Wilt. He did that excellently, and will do so on my team as well.

Second Bolded: No, my argument was my bench players were better scorers period. They could score more points on the same number of shots as your bench. Difference is, nobody is scared of your bench scoring other than in a supporting role. I'm not scared of Middleton creating his own shot, nor AK47. Their points are entirely dependent on teammates. That is not true of my team. All of my bench is capable of scoring independent of assistance from teammates.

Third Bolded: I'm using T-Mac's actual numbers. If you want to use his peak TS% it's still lower than my 3rd leading scorer (and light year's behind my #1 and #2 scorer's efficiency), and that's not even taking into account that inflated TS% is because he had 1 year of decent TS% and 2 years where he was his usual 52% self. I'm betting the 1 year of efficient scoring is the anomaly and not the 14 other years of inefficiency.

Cunningham has more of a role on my team than Penny/Big O/T-Mac all do on yours. They were all best with the ball in their hands creating for themselves and now they're all on the same team. You yourself said your offense is ISO so while Big O or T-Mac is going ISO the other two players are standing around doing nothing.

The efficiency argument is so strong here. I love how you keep hammering it home.

KnicksorBust
06-10-2018, 05:20 PM
this is a really good matchup. However for me, Oscar-penny-Tmac just seems like it has to many overlapping skills to be truly maximized. Kinda like the Lebron-wade duo, but with an extra guy and not the same talent. if you put Dwight on Malone like RR wants to do that just pulls him from the paint. I think its much better to leave him on Dwight and trust Grant to do his best on Malone. Curry isn't a great cover for any of those guys, but its not like any of those guys are known defensive stoppers either. I wouldn't be surprised for many if this game fell down how you feel about Cunningham with some focusing on his inefficiencies while some liking his pretty insane stats.



*side note shouldn't cunningham have to play 30 minutes or do you get a pass since RR's team isn't playing by the rules either.

While people don't know Oscar/Penny/TMac to be Kawhi Leonard or Scottie Pippen on wing defense, they were still known for being above-average defenders. Furthermore, with Curry being the only threat from 3, it'll make guarding Clyde and Cunningham a bit easier to defend as well. Everyone knows the blue prints to limit Curry in the playoffs, play physical with him, Oscar Robertson in real life even mentioned this.

I heard the criticism of "overlapping" skills during the draft. Is passing/play-making, rebounding (they are all above-average rebounders), being an above average defender, being athletic, and having a good shoot really something you DON'T want all your players to have? By the way, those who think this way, please answer... I don't mean to ask this rhetorically.

Before LeBron and Wade teamed up, he was a 32.9% 3-point shooter for his career (Penny shot 38.6% on 4.8 attempts in his playoff peak). Wade was a 28.9% 3-point shooter (TMac was a 37.3% 3-point shooter in his peak). Was the fact LeBron and Wade were both good defenders, great rebounders, good play-makers, and both athletic hurt them? Absolutely not... what hindered them was their spacing. LeBron James adapted his game and worked on his shot. From the time he went to Miami, LeBron has shot 35.9% from 3.

When people use the cliche that they have "overlapping skillsets", are they wanting some of their players to be crappier passers? Do they want them to not be able to rebound extremely well? Do they want them to be average or below average defenders? Do they want them to have a terrible shot? What skills do Oscar/Penny/TMac need to be worse at so that they aren't criticized for having "overlapping skills"?

That last sentence might be my favorite thing that I have read on psd in a long time. It is never a bad thing to have a complete player who is athletic, great size, can finish, can shoot, can create, can defend. The irony is we just watched a team whose 3 most important scorers were pg,sg,sf but it is still hard to fathom your trio. Bc none of them are traditional 2 guards who run around like reggie or klay. I also think the whiny D12 argument is overblown. Dwight should get 20ppg just because of the pace of play of your team.

I am leaning RR right now but its 51-49. Best debate I have seen yet. Really expect to support the winner in a big way moving forward. Cant believe this is round 1. Whats the vote?

Redrum187
06-10-2018, 05:24 PM
That last sentence might be my favorite thing that I have read on psd in a long time. It is never a bad thing to have a complete player who is athletic, great size, can finish, can shoot, can create, can defend. The irony is we just watched a team whose 3 most important scorers were pg,sg,sf but it is still hard to fathom your trio. Bc none of them are traditional 2 guards who run around like reggie or klay. I also think the whiny D12 argument is overblown. Dwight should get 20ppg just because of the pace of play of your team.

I am leaning RR right now but its 51-49. Best debate I have seen yet. Really expect to support the winner in a big way moving forward. Cant believe this is round 1. Whats the vote?

You missed the vote. lol

Congratulations Valade. Great team (as usual). I don't mind going down to a homie. Good luck in the next match ups.

Redrum187
06-10-2018, 05:31 PM
That last sentence might be my favorite thing that I have read on psd in a long time. It is never a bad thing to have a complete player who is athletic, great size, can finish, can shoot, can create, can defend. The irony is we just watched a team whose 3 most important scorers were pg,sg,sf but it is still hard to fathom your trio. Bc none of them are traditional 2 guards who run around like reggie or klay. I also think the whiny D12 argument is overblown. Dwight should get 20ppg just because of the pace of play of your team.

I am leaning RR right now but its 51-49. Best debate I have seen yet. Really expect to support the winner in a big way moving forward. Cant believe this is round 1. Whats the vote?

Haha much appreciated. I hear the Golden State Warriors are relinquishing their titles because they had too many players who could score, shoot, defend, rebound, and pass.

valade16
06-10-2018, 05:48 PM
You missed the vote. lol

Congratulations Valade. Great team (as usual). I don't mind going down to a homie. Good luck in the next match ups.

I went in to the movies to see Star Wars down 5-6 and assumed I was going to lose. Came out to 7-6.

You built a great team, you were the person I least wanted to face in the 1st round and of course I drew you lol

GREATNESS ONE
06-10-2018, 06:05 PM
Lmfao at AI finally showing up!

valade16
06-10-2018, 06:42 PM
Seaside Seagulls win.

Raps18-19 Champ
06-10-2018, 06:45 PM
How does this only have 13 votes...

Dunkapolooza
06-10-2018, 09:50 PM
Honestly I think it was probably just harder for people to vote on lol.

GREATNESS ONE
06-10-2018, 10:00 PM
I want Dunk so bad but he won't pass DHOP

dhopisthename
06-10-2018, 10:09 PM
I want Dunk so bad but he won't pass DHOP

I play valade.

AI
06-11-2018, 02:41 AM
Lmfao at AI finally showing up!

Works been ridiculously hectic lately and Iíve got a lot of stuff going on right now.

GREATNESS ONE
06-11-2018, 09:40 AM
Works been ridiculously hectic lately and Iíve got a lot of stuff going on right now.

I hear that brother!