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valade16
06-07-2018, 04:29 PM
Every year Members of PSD participate in a draft of all players all-time in an attempt to make the best team possible and win in a playoff determined by fellow members of PSD.

This years rules included being able to only start 2 players from the 00's and 1 from the 70's and earlier.

Look over the two teams and vote on which team you think would win in a 7 game series. The top team has home-court advantage for this series.

Team Gopher - Homecourt Advantage

PG: John Stockton/Sam Cassell
SG: Rick Barry/Paul Pressey
SF: Shawn Marion/Rashard Lewis
PF: Chris Webber/Rashard Lewis/Dolph Schayes
C: David Robinson/Marcus Camby

v

LA Borrachos

HC- Phil Jackson

C- Jack Sikma/ Joel Embiid
PF- Pau Gasol/ Rick Mahorn
SF- Ron Artest/ Kyle Korver
SG- Micheal Jordan
PG- Gail Goodrich/ Mark Jackson

mngopher35
06-07-2018, 04:42 PM
Oooo the mj trade matchup. I can go further in depth later but for starters Marion will play on Jordan while Barry takes arrest. I think Stockton with my athletic front court could cause issues with movement/pace

mngopher35
06-07-2018, 05:22 PM
Alright to add just a little more about my team the plan is to have a complete offense capable of playing many different styles depending on the match up. Stockton will be the engine/decision maker to start off the offensive flow but everyone is capable of scoring/making the right play on my squad. Defensively I have DPOY type anchor with Drob and a wing like Marion to take the best perimeter threat. Stockton is also an all defensive player while Webber was always good on that end as well. Barry is the weak link to most but even he was a smart team defender type who tried hard (think Curry with a bit more size tbh, high steal numbers like him). While there is defensive talent this is more about having a team without major holes and where everyone knows their assignments, cuts off easy buckets and makes teams grind/work hard for hoops.

Obviously with Stockton/Admiral I feel we can have a staple pick and roll like he did with Malone (imo Robinson is the better player too). Barry is the other playmaker/scorer I would say is the focus of our offense and can play off ball/coming off screens to start action but still make plays/drive off the catch (pretty good shooter too but curling in and attacking will happen often probably in this offense). In this matchup if Jordan is on him I can see this being a bit limited though. Marion and Webber are both capable of hitting open shots/attacking if left open (preferably corner 3 for Marion when he isn't screening) and will likely be used as screeners/cutters often to keep a flow to the offense.

Hopefully most of that makes sense, it doesn't all have to happen at once, there will be plenty of times in a game where we don't get a perfect offense ran but those are the general ideas and I think this team has enough weapons/scorers/playmakers to keep defenses on their heels and exploit most weaknesses. I think there is a capability to openly move the ball like the spurs around the court or to do it slightly more like the Warriors starting with an engine and playing off switches etc. attacking weak links. Really should be flexible on that end.

Defensively in this match up the keys will be to have Marion's size keep MJ out of the paint/post and contest jump shots while allowing contested mid range and out 2's from most of his other players. There isn't a great ability to stretch the floor out to/past the 3 point line and I have a lot of size/defense to help contest in the paint for Jordan/Gasol his biggest threats.

GREATNESS ONE
06-07-2018, 05:57 PM
Best of luck Gopher! I’ll be posting my write-up battle tonight when I get off from work.

mngopher35
06-07-2018, 05:59 PM
(null)

Sounds good ill save anything else till then!

Good luck to you as well (but not really though right? We both wanna win this lol)

Raps18-19 Champ
06-07-2018, 10:31 PM
Too much firepower IMO.

GREATNESS ONE
06-07-2018, 10:38 PM
First thing, I want to say is good thing we have seen a lot of these matchups actually take place in real life, and we have some great player comparisons in the other. The narrative of this match, Micheal Jordan has been disrespected, very much in this ATRD game. He is coming into this match-up pissed off and motivated, he's very upset and hungry to beat this team

defensively

John Stockton faced MJ in the NBA Finals twice in back2back years 97/98, watching both of them as a 15year old kid was a treat these guys are some of the toughest competitors the game has ever seen. MJ hounded Stockton, in these matchups, getting(3steal on Stockton passes) in his flu game and denied him penetration towards the basket, absolutely frustrating Stockton.We're talking about older Micheal he faced, Stockton will be facing off this match against younger even more hungrier, upset Micheal Jordan. DPOY hound, 9xALL NBA Defense, DPOY, 3X Steals Champ. heres some highlights during that match

https://youtu.be/MOuMwmXtgd0

Rick Barry his #1 option is a 6'7 200lbs player, who has high basketball intelligence and a great all-around game, he will be facing a player he's never played against in his era/career. Ron Artest is 1 of 7 DPOY Wing players out of 35!!!! all-time players! Artest a 6'7 250lb player will have a 50lb weight advantage over a skinnier, lighter man in Barry. Since 1996, only 2 Wings have won the DPOY award.. think about that.. only .. Kawhi Leonard and Ron Artest! Ron will be all over Barry, I won't go as far as he will shut him down but he 100% will limit and make Barry's number very subpar. Frustrating Barry with his strong hands, bigger frame, and nastiness Rick Barry has never seen/faced.

Goodrich will not be playing much in this series as Stockton would dominate him, so will be hiding him for his total 16m per game guarding his worst offensive option. Mark Jackson will be playing many more minutes his numbers H2H vs Stockton, very impressive. https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&player_id1_hint=Mark+Jackson&player_id1_select=Mark+Jackson&player_id1=jacksma01&idx=players&player_id2_hint=John+Stockton&player_id2_select=John+Stockton&player_id2=stockjo01&idx=players

Stockton obviously dominated 12/8 in assist but Jackson more than held his own, scored about same ppg/defended and grabbed more rebound.

Chris Webber, a great all-around player but had trouble vs more physical, nastier players. Rick Mahorn will be in the game for Webber, to mentally take Webber out of the game. Rick Mahorn is a nasty player with a mean streak and ability to take players out of the game mentally, when you think BadBoys Mahorn, he was probably the baddest other than Lambier. Taking C-Webb out of the match mentally will be huge for my team in advantage, taking out one of his better offense players, and making him a liability to just be on the court.

Marion... Shawn Marion is a above average wing defender, nowhere near my 2 wing DPOY players. Here's Marions #'s vs Kobe Bryant the 2nd Greatest SG of All-time.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&player_id1_hint=Shawn+Marion&player_id1_select=Shawn+Marion&player_id1=mariosh01&idx=players&player_id2_hint=Kobe+Bryant&player_id2_select=Kobe+Bryant&player_id2=bryanko01&idx=players

Kobe averaged 26ppg on 46% shooting, 27wins to 19 losses and scored over 28ppg 32 times! a few 40 pt games and a high of 51 pts! Kobe also averaged 27ppg on 47% shooting in the playoffs vs Marion. Now he's supposed to guard the greatest SG ever? and somehow slow him down lmfao. Not Happening.

Pau Gasol/Jack Sikma are 75%/85% from FT! and 50%/75% FG! FT%/FG% translates excellent into a modern day stretch big, I will be dragging Robinson out of the paint a lot in this match, even though MJ Dominated in a Era of some of the Greatest Bigs of all-time Robinson, Olajuwon, O'Neal, Ewing, Barkley, Dikembe, Mourning. Micheal Jordan was a one of a kind freak of nature player, who played better when he was mad, his motivation, determination and Will, was unmatched in his time and it will be in this series.

The Zen Master will be coaching my team in this series, making adjustments, playing psychological games with the referees, giving us the advantage with the calls. The Zen Master finished his career leading great team after great team, get on the same page and build amazing chemistry towards 11 NBA Championships!

this is a great match but I don't see how a Phil/MJ team would lose to a Stockton led team, when the Jazz couldn't even get it to 7 games. As great of a team Gopher built, this is a bad match-up for him.

GREATNESS ONE
06-07-2018, 10:39 PM
Too much firepower IMO.

someones bitter. I couldn't even get a write-up in? lmao ok

mngopher35
06-08-2018, 12:33 AM
First thing, I want to say is good thing we have seen a lot of these matchups actually take place in real life, and we have some great player comparisons in the other. The narrative of this match, Micheal Jordan has been disrespected, very much in this ATRD game. He is coming into this match-up pissed off and motivated, he's very upset and hungry to beat this team

defensively

John Stockton faced MJ in the NBA Finals twice in back2back years 97/98, watching both of them as a 15year old kid was a treat these guys are some of the toughest competitors the game has ever seen. MJ hounded Stockton, in these matchups, getting(3steal on Stockton passes) in his flu game and denied him penetration towards the basket, absolutely frustrating Stockton.We're talking about older Micheal he faced, Stockton will be facing off this match against younger even more hungrier, upset Micheal Jordan. DPOY hound, 9xALL NBA Defense, DPOY, 3X Steals Champ. heres some highlights during that match

https://youtu.be/MOuMwmXtgd0

Rick Barry his #1 option is a 6'7 200lbs player, who has high basketball intelligence and a great all-around game, he will be facing a player he's never played against in his era/career. Ron Artest is 1 of 7 DPOY Wing players out of 23 all-time players! Artest a 6'7 250lb player will have a 50lb weight advantage over a skinnier, lighter man in Barry. Since 1996, only 2 Wings have won the DPOY award.. think about that.. only .. Kawhi Leonard and Ron Artest! Ron will be all over Barry, I won't go as far as he will shut him down but he 100% will limit and make Barry's number very subpar. Frustrating Barry with his strong hands, bigger frame, and nastiness Rick Barry has never seen/faced.

Goodrich will not be playing much in this series as Stockton would dominate him, so will be hiding him for his total 16m per game guarding his worst offensive option. Mark Jackson will be playing many more minutes his numbers H2H vs Stockton, very impressive. https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&player_id1_hint=Mark+Jackson&player_id1_select=Mark+Jackson&player_id1=jacksma01&idx=players&player_id2_hint=John+Stockton&player_id2_select=John+Stockton&player_id2=stockjo01&idx=players

Stockton obviously dominated 12/8 in assist but Jackson more than held his own, scored about same ppg/defended and grabbed more rebound.

So you will always have MJ on Stockton or are you saying you are gonna use that PG rotation? Seems like mostly Jordan until that talk about the PG's against him. Either way Goodrich should be exposed in this matchup as even you admit you need to hide him. If Jordan is on Stockton we may run a little less pick and roll through him and more off ball action to get Barry/Marion in the mix (especially with Goodrich on them).

Artest on Barry could slow him down 1v1 but like I said he will be in a lot of action throughout the game. I like having Artest having to run through a lot of screens and try to keep up with him on the perimeter to an extent (moreso than get to use that strength/bulk or nastiness as you say, that actually won't be as useful this matchup) but I won't say it's a win either as obviously Ron was a very high level defender and you are right he will have a tough matchup here still.



Chris Webber, a great all-around player but had trouble vs more physical, nastier players. Rick Mahorn will be in the game for Webber, to mentally take Webber out of the game. Rick Mahorn is a nasty player with a mean streak and ability to take players out of the game mentally, when you think BadBoys Mahorn, he was probably the baddest other than Lambier. Taking C-Webb out of the match mentally will be huge for my team in advantage, taking out one of his better offense players, and making him a liability to just be on the court.

Marion... Shawn Marion is a above average wing defender, nowhere near my 2 wing DPOY players. Here's Marions #'s vs Kobe Bryant the 2nd Greatest SG of All-time.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&player_id1_hint=Shawn+Marion&player_id1_select=Shawn+Marion&player_id1=mariosh01&idx=players&player_id2_hint=Kobe+Bryant&player_id2_select=Kobe+Bryant&player_id2=bryanko01&idx=players

Kobe averaged 26ppg on 46% shooting, 27wins to 19 losses and scored over 28ppg 32 times! a few 40 pt games and a high of 51 pts! Kobe also averaged 27ppg on 47% shooting in the playoffs vs Marion. Now he's supposed to guard the greatest SG ever? and somehow slow him down lmfao. Not Happening.

I mean your backup PF who is behind Gasol is the big stop for Webber? I mean he won't single handedly decide the matchup but isn't that helping me if you need to play him more over a starter like Gasol who brings much more on O? Also why does he just become a liability? Seems like you are stretching it here.

Marion is a very good but sure not elite wing defender. Most of my team has great IQ and I should have plenty of help/recovery throughout games due to this. I won't deny this is a matchup if left alone Jordan will win. However when Mahorn is out there we can help pack the paint some(sounds like he should be out there plenty with Webber). As I stated before the goal will be to play strong team defense and help out Marion as much as possible. Leaving some guys a little open from mid range may happen from time to time but I have a nice strong physical defender to stop him dominating the post and the help to not allow him alone to kill me. MJ is going to end up getting his but limiting his effectiveness/ability to get to close to the hoop as a team should be plenty given you don't have other elite scoring options. Keeping your team on the perimeter more with my size etc. down low should be somewhat effective overall against this team.



Pau Gasol/Jack Sikma are 75%/85% from FT! and 50%/75% FG! FT%/FG% translates excellent into a modern day stretch big, I will be dragging Robinson out of the paint a lot in this match, even though MJ Dominated in a Era of some of the Greatest Bigs of all-time Robinson, Olajuwon, O'Neal, Ewing, Barkley, Dikembe, Mourning. Micheal Jordan was a one of a kind freak of nature player, who played better when he was mad, his motivation, determination and Will, was unmatched in his time and it will be in this series.

The Zen Master will be coaching my team in this series, making adjustments, playing psychological games with the referees, giving us the advantage with the calls. The Zen Master finished his career leading great team after great team, get on the same page and build amazing chemistry towards 11 NBA Championships!

this is a great match but I don't see how a Phil/MJ team would lose to a Stockton led team, when the Jazz couldn't even get it to 7 games. As great of a team Gopher built, this is a bad match-up for him.

I am not overly concerned with you using your bigs to space/take jumpers (mahorn in to guard Webber helps there too). I won't leave them open but do feel Drob's quickness should allow help and at least contesting mid rangers from Sikma. The rules have changed since MJ's days and anchors can hang around the paint much more. You do get some spacing but my frontcourt is good defensively with plenty of size/athletecism to create some problems here (Marion/Webber/Drob)


1. MJ doesn't have Pippen
2. Drob is better than Malone and won't have Rodman to deal with
3. Rick Barry is much better 3rd option than they ever had
4. Marion/Webber are also better than your last two starters

Ok I will stop with the numbers but there are tons of differences. How much better is your team than the Bulls with Pippen/Rodman etc? Barry/Marion/Webber is much better support than those Jazz teams and even Drob should be an upgrade as well (anchor defense for one). I get why you wanna use that but cmon man we all know these aren't remotely the same and I have far more talent/support.

You didn't really cover how you plan to stop my best player, David Robinson should be great in this matchup. Marion it sounds like will have Goodrich on him for chunks and was an efficient 20 ppg type scorer in his prime without such easy matchups. We are talking 45+ very efficient points from this duo based on what it sounds like will be focus on other areas leaving them to feast

GREATNESS ONE
06-08-2018, 01:00 AM
So you will always have MJ on Stockton or are you saying you are gonna use that PG rotation? Seems like mostly Jordan until that talk about the PG's against him. Either way Goodrich should be exposed in this matchup as even you admit you need to hide him. If Jordan is on Stockton we may run a little less pick and roll through him and more off ball action to get Barry/Marion in the mix (especially with Goodrich on them).

[/QUOTE]You will definitely get the Goodrich/Marion option but Artest will be 100% assignment on Barry. MJ will be on Stockton a lot but will be hawking him like he did in both NBA Finals match-ups with another guard on him. This is a MUCH tougher MJ than Stockton has ever seen. [/QUOTE]

Artest on Barry could slow him down 1v1 but like I said he will be in a lot of action throughout the game. I like having Artest having to run through a lot of screens and try to keep up with him on the perimeter to an extent (moreso than get to use that strength/bulk or nastiness as you say, that actually won't be as useful this matchup) but I won't say it's a win either as obviously Ron was a very high level defender and you are right he will have a tough matchup here still.



I mean your backup PF who is behind Gasol is the big stop for Webber? I mean he won't single handedly decide the matchup but isn't that helping me if you need to play him more over a starter like Gasol who brings much more on O? Also why does he just become a liability? Seems like you are stretching it here.


[/QUOTE]Yes, Gasol will be playing the majority of the minutes, Mahorn will be using every single foul and mentally attacking Webber. Strategically your team is full of players that could never get it done, and I feel I can creeping doubt mentally into your squad, you will crumble. Team full of stars with 1..2? Championships...
[/QUOTE]

Marion is a very good but sure not elite wing defender. Most of my team has great IQ and I should have plenty of help/recovery throughout games due to this. I won't deny this is a matchup if left alone Jordan will win. However when Mahorn is out there we can help pack the paint some(sounds like he should be out there plenty with Webber). As I stated before the goal will be to play strong team defense and help out Marion as much as possible. Leaving some guys a little open from mid range may happen from time to time but I have a nice strong physical defender to stop him dominating the post and the help to not allow him alone to kill me. MJ is going to end up getting his but limiting his effectiveness/ability to get to close to the hoop as a team should be plenty given you don't have other elite scoring options. Keeping your team on the perimeter more with my size etc. down low should be somewhat effective overall against this team.



[/QUOTE]No Mahorn will be there as a nuisance, pestering and legit being the bad boy, slamming Webber down, getting physical. Embiid off the bench too, is great in this series as he's big enough to score on both Robinson/Camby. I think you're sleeping on the damage your team would take from MJ, you even know Marion would lose the battle, bad.... who's behind him to stop MJ? Rashard Lewis? Paul Pressey? Sam Cassell? lmao c'mon MJ would average 45ppg[/QUOTE]


I am not overly concerned with you using your bigs to space/take jumpers (mahorn in to guard Webber helps there too). I won't leave them open but do feel Drob's quickness should allow help and at least contesting mid rangers from Sikma. The rules have changed since MJ's days and anchors can hang around the paint much more. You do get some spacing but my frontcourt is good defensively with plenty of size/athletecism to create some problems here (Marion/Webber/Drob)



[/QUOTE]you're absolutely right, the game has completely changed since MJ's days, no more hand checking.... how are you supposed to stop MJ again?[/QUOTE]


1. MJ doesn't have Pippen
2. Drob is better than Malone and won't have Rodman to deal with
3. Rick Barry is much better 3rd option than they ever had
4. Marion/Webber are also better than your last two starter

[/QUOTE]1. Ron Artest DPOY 1 > Pippen 0 also feel likke I have offensive Pippen in Gasol 20pp

2. DROB is better than Rodman... offensively. We'll let him get his 1v1 vs Sikma/Embiid as he's shown in his career you can't rely on Robinson to win a title unless next paired to Duncan.

3. everyone is sleeping on Pau, Sikma, Artest, Goodrich 20ppg avg with a 45ppg MJ.

4. probably true but MJ is much better than Drob/Stockton... start a franchise who do you want, DRob/Stockton or MJ?[/QUOTE]


Ok I will stop with the numbers but there are tons of differences. How much better is your team than the Bulls with Pippen/Rodman etc? Barry/Marion/Webber is much better support than those Jazz teams and even Drob should be an upgrade as well (anchor defense for one). I get why you wanna use that but cmon man we all know these aren't remotely the same and I have far more talent/support.



[/QUOTE]offensively, much better. Defensively almost as good, would really depend on Embiid/Mahorn but with two DPOY in the starting line-up(Rodman/MJ) we would have elite wing defense with Artest/MJ, Pau is a back2Back winner with Kobe, imagine what he could do with a more efficient, young, dominant, prime MJ.


You didn't really cover how you plan to stop my best player, David Robinson should be great in this matchup. Marion it sounds like will have Goodrich on him for chunks and was an efficient 20 ppg type scorer in his prime without such easy matchups. We are talking 45+ very efficient points from this duo based on what it sounds like will be focus on other areas leaving them to feast[/QUOTE]

Robinson will probably be your highest scorer in this series, even though I love the Embiid/Robinson match-up. It's not a good thing for your team, as your team has very little championship experience and what it takes to win it all, they wouldn't pass a Phil/MJ team. Goodrich will be all over in off assignments defending who he can, MJ played amazing off the ball defense against Stockton, I can see 8/9minutes on John, with MJ hawking.

mngopher35
06-08-2018, 01:57 AM
You will definitely get the Goodrich/Marion option but Artest will be 100% assignment on Barry. MJ will be on Stockton a lot but will be hawking him like he did in both NBA Finals match-ups with another guard on him. This is a MUCH tougher MJ than Stockton has ever seen.

I mean that's why I will be plaing through other players a bit more so I do agree Jordan is elite and will make things tougher which is why Stockton can start the offense and space. MJ can't leave my best shooter so it basically nuetralizes your best defender. Then consider that Barry will be running through screens potentially forcing switches with Marion/Webber/Drob there could be mismatches here. Even if not once again your 2nd best defender is on my 2nd best shooter who can space and create if left open as well. This leaves Marion/Webber/Drob being guarded by Goodrich/Gasol/Sikma of your starters which is a huge advantage overall in my frontcourt (all of which can score).




Yes, Gasol will be playing the majority of the minutes, Mahorn will be using every single foul and mentally attacking Webber. Strategically your team is full of players that could never get it done, and I feel I can creeping doubt mentally into your squad, you will crumble. Team full of stars with 1..2? Championships...


Ya that's fine then, this doesn't mean too much overall and the more time Mahorn is out there with Jordan to eat up the paint the better imo. If you think a few hard fouls from a backup is gonna be a gamechanger I think we just see things differently. My team hasn't been surrounded by overwhelming talent in this way though haha. If the best arguments you have are related to what they did on different teams and awards accumulated on said teams etc I feel like I must have a pretty big advantage on the court in this matchup :)




No Mahorn will be there as a nuisance, pestering and legit being the bad boy, slamming Webber down, getting physical. Embiid off the bench too, is great in this series as he's big enough to score on both Robinson/Camby. I think you're sleeping on the damage your team would take from MJ, you even know Marion would lose the battle, bad.... who's behind him to stop MJ? Rashard Lewis? Paul Pressey? Sam Cassell? lmao c'mon MJ would average 45ppg


[/QUOTE]you're absolutely right, the game has completely changed since MJ's days, no more hand checking.... how are you supposed to stop MJ again?[/QUOTE]


I know Marion would "lose the battle" because it is MJ, I won't deny his individual greatness. I mentioned the ways I will slow him down already as Marion's size/strength should help keep him out of the post and I have great help defenders to meet him in the lane. As much as possible keep Jordan as a perimeter player and use my defense/size/athletecism in the frontcourt to help make that happen. No one but Marion has to guard MJ. Paul Pressey is a multiple all defensive team player off the bench though if ever needed in a quick pinch.



1. Ron Artest DPOY 1 > Pippen 0 also feel likke I have offensive Pippen in Gasol 20pp

2. DROB is better than Rodman... offensively. We'll let him get his 1v1 vs Sikma/Embiid as he's shown in his career you can't rely on Robinson to win a title unless next paired to Duncan.

3. everyone is sleeping on Pau, Sikma, Artest, Goodrich 20ppg avg with a 45ppg MJ.

4. probably true but MJ is much better than Drob/Stockton... start a franchise who do you want, DRob/Stockton or MJ?

I mean sure your 2nd/3rd players combined make up for Pippen but that is a drop off then at the top of your roster still. In the end you have a deeper team but aren't as strong at the top as those Bulls were and Pippen is just better than either Gasol/Artest (with Rodman being an elite defender/rebounder as 3rd guy). You definitely lose defense here which was a huge part of what lead the Bulls and you drop off on that end now. I agree Gasol makes up for the offensive end but that defense isn't the same and I have much more talent to defend too and expose that drop off.

Drob can ONLY be relied on to win next to Duncan? This is where you once again are focused only on the specific situations they have been put in their career instead of looking at their talent/impact. So if Drob had Stockton+Barry+Marion+Webber you honestly think he still never wins a title just because Duncan isn't there? Yes or no. Titles are a team accomplishment and players like Pippen etc. are huge factors (see # of titles for MJ before Pippen)

It took MJ+Scottie+Rodman etc. when they played Stockton/Malone's Jazz. If you remove Pippen/Rodman and upgrade Malone to Drob? Ill take them over just MJ.



offensively, much better. Defensively almost as good, would really depend on Embiid/Mahorn but with two DPOY in the starting line-up(Rodman/MJ) we would have elite wing defense with Artest/MJ, Pau is a back2Back winner with Kobe, imagine what he could do with a more efficient, young, dominant, prime MJ.


You clearly drop defensively but I do agree that you get better on offense. The point here though is this isn't drastically better than those bulls in nearly the same way my team is drastically better than those Jazz they had a close matchup to, mentioning it isn't really a win. I improve across the board players outside of Stockton while you drop off from a top 30 player all time in Pippen and make up for it with better depth (overall trading some defense for more offense).

Rivera
06-08-2018, 09:12 AM
im very surprised the MJ team beat Raps team, but thats the power of MJ

GREATNESS ONE
06-08-2018, 11:44 AM
https://youtu.be/H30roqZiHRQ

MJ Revenge plays, Micheal will be playing this series with a HUGE CHIP on his shoulder as Gopher traded MJ for Stockton/Robinson. My main line-up will have Embiid in playing as he’s big enough, agile, and atheistic enough to to hang with Robinson, As well, as spacing the floor.

Embiid
Gasol
Artest
Jordan
Mark Jackson

Will be the lineup, playing the most minutes, this team will be following a pissed off MJ’s lead, looking to prove GOpher wrong for trading him. You TRADED Micheal Jordan! He’s more determined to beat you and prove you wrong than any other team. Jordan, will be schooling Marion to the hole, picking up fouls on Robinson and getting him in foul trouble. To even “slow” down Michael, you need a Elite Wing defender, your wings are Swiss cheese against a pissed off MJ.

GREATNESS ONE
06-08-2018, 11:52 AM
https://youtu.be/4SbJ4Xf-t5E

This is AWESOME. Exactly what Mike would be playing like, tweaked, motivated, absolute pissed off. You have 0 answers for MJ.

mngopher35
06-08-2018, 11:52 AM
https://youtu.be/H30roqZiHRQ

MJ Revenge plays, Micheal will be playing this series with a HUGE CHIP on his shoulder as Gopher traded MJ for Stockton/Robinson. My main line-up will have Embiid in playing as he’s big enough, agile, and atheistic enough to to hang with Robinson, As well, as spacing the floor.

Embiid
Gasol
Artest
Jordan
Mark Jackson

Will be the lineup, playing the most minutes, this team will be following a pissed off MJ’s lead, looking to prove GOpher wrong for trading him. You TRADED Micheal Jordan! He’s more determined to beat you and prove you wrong than any other team. Jordan, will be schooling Marion to the hole, picking up fouls on Robinson and getting him in foul trouble. To even “slow” down Michael, you need a Elite Wing defender, your wings are Swiss cheese against a pissed off MJ.

First of all them playing most of the minutes is against the rules given you have to play a pre 70's guy 30minutes etc. but I get why you want to hide your older guys. That's one reason why I am set this matchup is that you simply have to start hiding some of your starters because they are so outmatched here.

Mj is the best player in the matchup. Lebron has been the best player in the league. Lebrons teams haven't won the titles though because the rest of his team was outmatched, just like this matchup. After MJ the next 4 best players are Drob, Stockton, Barry, Webber.

You have the best player but I have far and away the best overall team outside of that here and my team doesn't have weakness to hide from like yours either. MJ was great but he doesn't have Pippen/elite defense and is going up against a much tougher team than he has ever faced on top of that.

mngopher35
06-08-2018, 11:58 AM
im very surprised the MJ team beat Raps team, but thats the power of MJ

Ya the last game a very poor MJ team won too, some people just see one name and vote. I actually had the chance to take MJ like G1 has mentioned but didn't go for it because I actually wanted to build a fun overall team more to go up with the heavyweight individuals. Probably losing strategy on PSD

NYKalltheway
06-08-2018, 12:08 PM
I had Gopher's team as #2 overall, G1 wasn't even in my eventual top 10. I think Gopher's team overall is more talented, has greater depth but there's one important category (and an added bonus) that makes me consider going with G1 here. Gopher's team is one of the worst in terms of deep playoff runs (Can't blame individuals though) out of the game but what does hurt them is that they're not a clutch team with most of their players disappearing from their usual selves when it's winning time. On the other hand, not only you have Michael Jordan, but you have a team filled with determined players and winners. But there's an evident lack of depth and roster completeness there which is what drives me away from voting them instantly.

Still have not seen any of the two tackling the issue of depth so I'll wait a little bit more.

mngopher35
06-08-2018, 12:15 PM
I had Gopher's team as #2 overall, G1 wasn't even in my eventual top 10. I think Gopher's team overall is more talented, has greater depth but there's one important category (and an added bonus) that makes me consider going with G1 here. Gopher's team is one of the worst in terms of deep playoff runs (Can't blame individuals though) out of the game but what does hurt them is that they're not a clutch team with most of their players disappearing from their usual selves when it's winning time. On the other hand, not only you have Michael Jordan, but you have a team filled with determined players and winners. But there's an evident lack of depth and roster completeness there which is what drives me away from voting them instantly.

Still have not seen any of the two tackling the issue of depth so I'll wait a little bit more.

Ya I covered it in the chatzy but one thing about my team I actually liked is trying to overcome the poor perception. I 100% think NBA fans are some of the blindest people when it comes to judging individual players and the way championships are used. If it would have been possible I was gonna try and go with even less winners.

FYI didn't Barry win a title as the man in pretty great fashion? I feel like for all this talk Drob won when he got young Duncan, all it took was some talent. Stockton never won but again just use logic and look at how his teams made the finals and took those Bulls to 6. His team loses Pippen/Rodman defense to Gasol/Artest and I upgrade from Malone to Drob and add Barry/Marion/Webber. Again I got better in every way essentially and his team is just a bit better because while they gain offense the get hurt on D

Rivera
06-08-2018, 12:24 PM
gophers kind of winning me over. i actually like LA Borrachos in this particular matchup even though I hated them vs Raps team. but gopher is strong in his write ups

im still on the fence and havent voted yet

mngopher35
06-08-2018, 12:55 PM
I mean one way of putting it is how often have we seen a team with 4/5 best players in the matchup (arguably) lose? Basketball is a team game and after Michael Jordan I just kill this matchup. BTW my last starter is Marion who isn't the worst one in the matchup either.

Marion is a perfect role player type who can score in high volume/efficiency too (aka abuses weak defenders leaving me no weak links on the court). For those wondering about my bench I basically have Cassell/Rashard/Camby as my main backups. The first two can come into the game and again beat up a bit on weak matchups and also space the floor out to give my other stars room. Camby is to insure that at all times I have a DPOY caliber big man in the game. In certain matchups I can use both together but I am not sure that this is the matchup for this, I think Rashard spacing out Mahorn hurts his value (or force Mahorn in at specific times with MJ to impede their offense, he has to pick one). Paul Pressey could be used at times just to give MJ a different look/fresh legs type of thing but I wouldn't say he will be an impact player or anything I just like to have a mix of talents/roles/skills etc. to give me balance/mismatches and he was a good wing defender left for off my bench. I not only have far more talent but mine fits together very well with backups who can come in to score/space/defend at times to spell them depending on matchups.

JAZZNC
06-08-2018, 01:08 PM
Gopher has the better team top to bottom and they mesh well together. Some really good passers all over the court and Stockton can run pick and roll/pop all day long with Robinson and Webber. Plus that team in the fast break is going to be unstoppable.

I just think Gopher has more than enough talent to overcome not having the best player in the series. But I know too many people are just gonna see MJ and that'll decide their vote.

mngopher35
06-08-2018, 02:19 PM
Gopher has the better team top to bottom and they mesh well together. Some really good passers all over the court and Stockton can run pick and roll/pop all day long with Robinson and Webber. Plus that team in the fast break is going to be unstoppable.

I just think Gopher has more than enough talent to overcome not having the best player in the series. But I know too many people are just gonna see MJ and that'll decide their vote.

Yup. I went with the same idea of pairing Stockton with a dominant big to pick and pop (I just prefer Drob a bit more) and as I mentioned my athleticism (especially frontcourt) is an advantage here.

MJ just has that perception he would never lose to some so even when he's up against far superior talent and without Pippen etc. it won't matter. MJ doesn't lose, ever (except for when he didn't have Pippen irl). Even with young Pippen when they went against the loaded Pistons they came up short. Now there are factors like Pippen but that team wasn't close to as loaded as mine and like I said still had 24 year olds Pippen/Grant with MJ and lost because in general the talent was closeish and some minor things can decide a close series (IT/Dumars/Rodman/Laimbeer so not even close to the top talent I have either and they can still beat a IRL MJ team).

Like I said show me how often he went up against a team with 4/5 best players (him being the 1) and took them down? It just didn't happen irl on those Bulls teams but RINGS, MJ the GOAT etc. will always be a factor in NBA (and especially PSD) discussions lol. That Pistons series will be forgotten when debates like this come up but as I mentioned that's part of what I like about a team without an elite top 5 or 10 talent but is overwhelming throughout.

I agree MJ was the goat but basketball being a team game just doesn't register with everyone, can't tell you how many times I have seen the best player lose for my teams/in college/in the NBA etc.just because of a better team and again before Jordan had some type of comparable help to his competition (Pippen and Grant/Rodman) he was losing in the playoffs too because the rest does matter. It's not on him as no one can carry a team of less talented overall players etc. over too much I am just out to try and make people think about matchups/talent/context/fit etc more with this team I guess.

NYKalltheway
06-08-2018, 04:25 PM
Ya I covered it in the chatzy but one thing about my team I actually liked is trying to overcome the poor perception. I 100% think NBA fans are some of the blindest people when it comes to judging individual players and the way championships are used. If it would have been possible I was gonna try and go with even less winners.

FYI didn't Barry win a title as the man in pretty great fashion? I feel like for all this talk Drob won when he got young Duncan, all it took was some talent. Stockton never won but again just use logic and look at how his teams made the finals and took those Bulls to 6. His team loses Pippen/Rodman defense to Gasol/Artest and I upgrade from Malone to Drob and add Barry/Marion/Webber. Again I got better in every way essentially and his team is just a bit better because while they gain offense the get hurt on D

Oh, I agree trust me.

People might see a team like:

Stockton
Richmond
Sprewell
Barkley
Ewing

and say they won't win lol.

I actually mostly "penalized" your team because of Chris Webber being there. That clutchless factor stuck with him since his college days. And Rashard Lewis backing him up doesn't make things look better there.

GREATNESS ONE
06-08-2018, 04:50 PM
At work but wanted to make a few points. I’ll get on later again and debate.

1- MJ answer, Gophers team is well constructed but he has 0 answers for Jordan, he has a lack of wing depth and absolutely nothing to slow down MJ at all.

2. Traded MJ, Gopher Legit traded Michael Jordan, not only have we seen Michael play fantastic basketball but there’s moments, when MJ took it to the next level, not only does he have a HUGE Chip on his shoulders but MJ is pissed off at the lack of respect he’s getting. No answers + a pissed off mad MJ is HUGE PROBLEMS.

3. Not only do I have MJ 6-0record in the finals but my entire starting 5 has won an NBA Champion being the 1st/2nd option. My team is full of excellent role players, who know their role and know what it take shape to get it done. Sure Gopher had a good team but the lack of championship experience and doing what it takes to get it done kills him.

4. Wings, My team carries the HUGE advantage on both side of the Ball, defensively and offensively. Your wings will get 0 production with two DPOY wth the ability to frustrate and **** your wings down and on the other end demoralize your team with easy buckets. Your team has shown historically when things get tough, they fold under pressure. With MJ’s determination and will and constant offensive barrage, I see your team crumbling when things get tough, like they have shown historically. I don’t think, I have the best team in this tournament but these series are definitely about match ups and Gopher has 0 wing defense for the greatest SG ever. This match up hugely favors LA.

mngopher35
06-08-2018, 05:00 PM
Oh, I agree trust me.

People might see a team like:

Stockton
Richmond
Sprewell
Barkley
Ewing

and say they won't win lol.

I actually mostly "penalized" your team because of Chris Webber being there. That clutchless factor stuck with him since his college days. And Rashard Lewis backing him up doesn't make things look better there.

I mean he is my 4th option on this team essentially though. Given Marion's matchup and him wanting mahorn in you could argue he is less of one than him this game. Webber just needs to be an all around PF playing hard on defense, passing/screening within the offenses, scoring when it's his turn (he will have less volume on this team than his normal career). That's why having so much talent/scoring at every position and a team of high IQ players who can all move the ball etc. is so key to this design. Even if you don't like one or two of my matchups I should have a couple high level guys (like Marion/Drob) with mismatches to an extent (Goodrich/Sikma). Barry coming around screens can possibly get him free from a larger Artest than maybe a quicker defender as well and anytime he gets goodrich on him he can attack. Webber is just another of many options and doesn't need to be the main scorer/creator in any fashion on this team just play within the flow. None of these guys have the same individual pressure that they would have normally had during their peak due to the talent around them, that's the key!

Ya I know and have seen your posts on the topic which is why I couldn't believe it was coming from you too. Overall I think you get the game of basketball etc. (you even coach overseas right?) even if you are ridiculous with your Lebron isn't a top 10 player bias lol. I actually had the chance to pair Bird/Drob if I pushed for it but really liked the idea of this well rounded team and trying to break this trend. You may have missed it in the chatzy but ya I started trying to make some lineups of non winners that I could obtain and at least have the potential to win with.

mngopher35
06-08-2018, 05:07 PM
At work but wanted to make a few points. I’ll get on later again and debate.

1- MJ answer, Gophers team is well constructed but he has 0 answers for Jordan, he has a lack of wing depth and absolutely nothing to slow down MJ at all.

2. Traded MJ, Gopher Legit traded Michael Jordan, not only have we seen Michael play fantastic basketball but there’s moments, when MJ took it to the next level, not only does he have a HUGE Chip on his shoulders but MJ is pissed off at the lack of respect he’s getting. No answers + a pissed off mad MJ is HUGE PROBLEMS.

3. Not only do I have MJ 6-0record in the finals but my entire starting 5 has won an NBA Champion being the 1st/2nd option. My team is full of excellent role players, who know their role and know what it take shape to get it done. Sure Gopher had a good team but the lack of championship experience and doing what it takes to get it done kills him.

4. Wings, My team carries the HUGE advantage on both side of the Ball, defensively and offensively. Your wings will get 0 production with two DPOY wth the ability to frustrate and **** your wings down and on the other end demoralize your team with easy buckets. Your team has shown historically when things get tough, they fold under pressure. With MJ’s determination and will and constant offensive barrage, I see your team crumbling when things get tough, like they have shown historically. I don’t think, I have the best team in this tournament but these series are definitely about match ups and Gopher has 0 wing defense for the greatest SG ever. This match up hugely favors LA.

1. Marion with big men at the hoop. You have yet to explain how MJ on the perimeter or attacking into a DPOY with Marion on his side is some huge advantage. MJ is MJ but that's all you have in this matchup and have ignored my explanation of how I will play your team above I guess.

2. Ok MJ is angry, got it. Like I said MJ is MJ I already expected the goat.

3.This is just MJ's accomplishment that were obtainted with Pippen+ etc. I do have some championship experience and with far more talent all around than these guys have played with before. Again you just have off court stuff nothing related to our matchups really so far.

4. Oh my bad jumped the gun here we go wings. You have now said MJ will be covering both Stockton and one of my wings now so which is it? You have been all over the place so far in the write ups yet people still just see MJ haha. Oh back to the my team has MJ and championships on their IRL teams etc. You portraying Marion as 0 wing defense just shows the lengths you need to go here. He won't stop MJ but he was a very good wing defender and his size etc. should prevent too much post damage

Raps18-19 Champ
06-08-2018, 10:11 PM
Lol at this rate, MJ team going to win it all.

Raps18-19 Champ
06-08-2018, 10:13 PM
someones bitter. I couldn't even get a write-up in? lmao ok

Nah. I've always vote without a writeup. Much better than those puss GMs who pretend they want a writeup before deciding on a matchup but never vote anyway.

Gopher was #1 in my seeding and you were in the 12-16 range I think so don't see a need for a writeup.

JAZZNC
06-08-2018, 11:29 PM
Could someone please add my vote for gopher's team.

GREATNESS ONE
06-09-2018, 12:09 AM
Could someone please add my vote for gopher's team.

Nightmares from the B2B?

mngopher35
06-09-2018, 12:10 AM
Lol at this rate, MJ team going to win it all.

Haha I noticed he posted in the Lakers forum and 5/7 of his votes are lakers fans that didn't vote in another matchup, if that keeps up he's a lock given the number of voters usually. At this point that's all these games really come down to is a handful of votes like that

Edit: 7/9 can see poll again and it's 7/9 coming from LA forum and only voted this game, he's got this one on lock at least with that many.

GREATNESS ONE
06-09-2018, 12:29 AM
Haha I noticed he posted in the Lakers forum and 5/7 of his votes are lakers fans that didn't vote in another matchup, if that keeps up he's a lock given the number of voters usually. At this point that's all these games really come down to is a handful of votes like that

Edit: 7/9 can see poll again and it's 7/9 coming from LA forum and only voted this game, he's got this one on lock at least with that many.

I <3 you..

KnicksorBust
06-09-2018, 12:31 AM
Because its Jordan I would never say "easily" but I think Gopher wins. 3 players that are almost first round value and great chemistry. No one smart strategically to put on Stockton and Drob should feast.

dhopisthename
06-09-2018, 12:35 AM
Haha I noticed he posted in the Lakers forum and 5/7 of his votes are lakers fans that didn't vote in another matchup, if that keeps up he's a lock given the number of voters usually. At this point that's all these games really come down to is a handful of votes like that

Edit: 7/9 can see poll again and it's 7/9 coming from LA forum and only voted this game, he's got this one on lock at least with that many.

eh I wouldn't give up. you are only down 9-5 at this point. I was up 9-3 at one point and barely held on to 10-9 and like you said you had multiple people who didn't vote on mine. I bet you come back to get this close.

GREATNESS ONE
06-09-2018, 12:40 AM
Because its Jordan I would never say "easily" but I think Gopher wins. 3 players that are almost first round value and great chemistry. No one smart strategically to put on Stockton and Drob should feast.

You don’t think MJ can guard Stockton? Lol or is that not “smart”

mngopher35
06-09-2018, 12:45 AM
eh I wouldn't give up. you are only down 9-5 at this point. I was up 9-3 at one point and barely held on to 10-9 and like you said you had multiple people who didn't vote on mine. I bet you come back to get this close.

True, that comes off as if I am giving up which wasn't the intent. If he kept up that rate of LA fans (over half the total voters) it would be over is how I should have worded that. What I need is a lot of voters jumping into this and it seems like a lot of the people playing the game haven't voted yet so there is room.

Debate wise though I feel like I said what I needed and most hasn't been countered so not sure what to do other than wait and hope.

GREATNESS ONE
06-09-2018, 12:48 AM
True, that comes off as if I am giving up which wasn't the intent. If he kept up that rate of LA fans (over half the total voters) it would be over is how I should have worded that. What I need is a lot of voters jumping into this and it seems like a lot of the people playing the game haven't voted yet so there is room.

Debate wise though I feel like I said what I needed and most hasn't been countered so not sure what to do other than wait and hope.

I feel 100% the same debate wise. The score looks tied to me, can’t skip out the click votes.

Raps18-19 Champ
06-09-2018, 12:49 AM
Haha I noticed he posted in the Lakers forum and 5/7 of his votes are lakers fans that didn't vote in another matchup, if that keeps up he's a lock given the number of voters usually. At this point that's all these games really come down to is a handful of votes like that

Edit: 7/9 can see poll again and it's 7/9 coming from LA forum and only voted this game, he's got this one on lock at least with that many.

Made a similar comment in my matchup. Don't think he's asking for votes but asking people to vote on the matchup does lead to some skewed votes as he's only asking people who would vote for him.

He already admitted that he catered his team to the PSD public as opposed to actually making the best team possible so all credit to him.

GREATNESS ONE
06-09-2018, 12:50 AM
Same *** every year , you got the “click” votes, against everyone else. Lmfao MJ vs Marion is hilarious, I feel like you made a HUGE mistake building your team with 1/22 round picks and not getting any, ANY perimeter defense.

GREATNESS ONE
06-09-2018, 12:52 AM
Made a similar comment in my matchup. Don't think he's asking for votes but asking people to vote on the matchup does lead to some skewed votes as he's only asking people who would vote for him.

He already admitted that he catered his team to the PSD public as opposed to actually making the best team possible so all credit to him.

Don’t hate the player, hate the game. I know, I won’t win it all but this ain’t the matchup to stop MJ. DHOp and Lucky tho.... oh oh

Raps18-19 Champ
06-09-2018, 01:04 AM
Don’t hate the player, hate the game. I know, I won’t win it all but this ain’t the matchup to stop MJ. DHOp and Lucky tho.... oh oh

I did. Well we have said multiple times to get rid of MJ and I gave you credit for the strategy of catering to the public (though they seem to be oblivious to it given you already admitted it).

mngopher35
06-09-2018, 01:06 AM
Same *** every year , you got the “click” votes, against everyone else. Lmfao MJ vs Marion is hilarious, I feel like you made a HUGE mistake building your team with 1/22 round picks and not getting any, ANY perimeter defense.

What are the click votes? Is this in response to me pointing out the voters thing?

Stockton was a multiple time All Defense defender and Marion is similar in DRAPM and DRTG at his peak to Andre Kirlinko numbers wise (even though drtg is team based his team was the suns lol so that only hurts). His DRTG and DBPM numbers aren't far off Iggy/Battier either etc there are plenty of examples of guys considered good defenders like Marion. They may not be the best defensive group or anything for an all time game but it's not like I have nothing on that end either lol.

still1ballin
06-09-2018, 01:49 PM
Borrachos


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Lakers + Giants
06-09-2018, 02:06 PM
I'm not even gonna lie. I actually think this is a good matchup for G1. He's going up against a team full of players that couldn't get it done when it mattered most with the exception of Barry.

Stockton, Marion, Webber and DRob never won when In their primes. Granted, that's mostly a team accomplishment, or in this case team failure, but those players were to blame as well since they were on those teams numerous times.

Overall matchup wise Gopher wins @ PG And C. G1 wins @ SG and PF. The tossup matchup is @ SF but neither of those are going at each other. MJ is guarded by Marion and Barry is guarded by Artest, and I have to say, MJ would do much better in that scenario than Barry.

The question for me is, will DRob take advantage of his matchup vs Sikma more than MJ will? This is where I make my decision. Although probably unfair, DRob is known for shrinking in the spotlight while Jordan excelled. Although I believe gopher's team is better overall I don't like this matchup for you.

I'm voting G1.

mngopher35
06-09-2018, 06:58 PM
I'm not even gonna lie. I actually think this is a good matchup for G1. He's going up against a team full of players that couldn't get it done when it mattered most with the exception of Barry.

Stockton, Marion, Webber and DRob never won when In their primes. Granted, that's mostly a team accomplishment, or in this case team failure, but those players were to blame as well since they were on those teams numerous times.

Overall matchup wise Gopher wins @ PG And C. G1 wins @ SG and PF. The tossup matchup is @ SF but neither of those are going at each other. MJ is guarded by Marion and Barry is guarded by Artest, and I have to say, MJ would do much better in that scenario than Barry.

The question for me is, will DRob take advantage of his matchup vs Sikma more than MJ will? This is where I make my decision. Although probably unfair, DRob is known for shrinking in the spotlight while Jordan excelled. Although I believe gopher's team is better overall I don't like this matchup for you.

I'm voting G1.

So my advantages are Stockton+Drob over Goodrich+Sikma. He has MJ over Barry (with the SF's guarding)? A 15ish and top 25ish player all time compared to a couple people drafted past pick 100 is an incredible advantage (SF/PF is similar here imo). MJ definitely wins his matchup over Barry (a FMVP) but not at the level of one of the best PG's in history to run the offense and a DPOY MVP anchor compared to guys he has been trying to hide in his write ups...

You know this though that's why you stuck to the same "they are winners" while admitting that it is a team game (logic should take over from there). Not sure if you read the write ups but what happened when MJ/Pippen/Grant went up against talented team (and note I am far better than those pistons)? They lost. MJ is the "winner" here to you guys but this is a much different situation for him and my team is far better than teams he has played. That stuff is where the debate of matchups etc. come in but it has been avoided to just harp on MJ/his accomplishments essentially (which isn't new around here haha).

All you had to say was that you won't abandon your fellow lakers fans.

mngopher35
06-09-2018, 07:02 PM
Your PR's LG

TIER 1: CONTENDERS (TEAMS I BELIEVE CAN WIN IT ALL AS IS)

mngopher35

PG: John Stockton/Sam Cassell
SG: Rick Barry/Paul Pressey
SF: Shawn Marion/Rashard Lewis
PF: Chris Webber/Rashard Lewis/Dolph Schayes
C: David Robinson/Marcus Camby
This team has it all. A great oldie, great interior defending and scoring, an elite defensive wing, and playmaking, there’s a reason this team is a contender, solid bench too.


TIER 3: NOT 1, BUT 2 MOVES AWAY

G1

Tyson Chandler / Joel Embiid
Pau Gasol
Ron Artest / Kyle Korver
Michael Jordan / Craig Hodges
Gail Goodrich / Mark Jackson

Not a bad team around Jordan, but underwhelming. Understandable because you gave up everything to move up for Jordan and still had to suffer the Jordan rule curse. When you have to get Phil Jackson as your coach you know how bleak things are. Good luck “brother”.

GREATNESS ONE
06-09-2018, 07:03 PM
“Far better”? Your nowhere close “Defensively” to those Pistons. 0 perimiter Defense. Drob is great defensively but is he really better and nastier than those Bad Boys Pistons alone?

Lmao Gopher, don’t be so bitter, LG voted against my team last round.

mngopher35
06-09-2018, 07:09 PM
“Far better”? Your nowhere close “Defensively” to those Pistons. 0 perimiter Defense. Drob isn’t great defensively but is he really better and nastier than those pistons alone?

Lmao Gopher, don’t be so bitter, LG voted against my team last round.

So you are saying that you don't think my team is far better than IT/Dumars/Rodman/Laimbeer Aguirre/others? Feel free to check where my guys are generally drafted compared to them if you wanna see what others think... I am not the one being ridiculous here G1.

I know he voted against you haha, he knows your team isn't as good (and it shows in his PR's). He voted for you this time over a team he considered better due to... Well we know how PSD games work. Am I not allowed to point out the obvious?

GREATNESS ONE
06-09-2018, 07:22 PM
Defensively no I don’t think your team is better than the BadBoy Pistons. I think the obvious point is never trade MJ ;)

mngopher35
06-09-2018, 07:33 PM
Defensively no I don’t think your team is better than the BadBoy Pistons. I think the obvious point is never trade MJ ;)

Hmmm you once again are talking about something I never asked. I can look up where they all were drafted last time but again you don't think my team is far better? Do you think that team would be beating any teams remaining in these playoffs ever (other than mine lol)? Which one?

The MJ trade isn't really related to the overall matchup haha no one is really making many points other than MJ/rings and even that's basically just you/LG (and have shown his PR's). It looks like I am leading 9-2 outside your laker votes. If more non laker fans vote than laker fans moving forward I actually could come back. We have found that you are a better politican than me so far.

Do Jazz and KOB votes count, they posted but didn't vote? If not it's still 7-2 but I would probably be done for

GREATNESS ONE
06-10-2018, 12:52 AM
https://youtu.be/bcDBJJkWvDk

I think, I would have Magic’s vote too.

mngopher35
06-10-2018, 01:07 AM
https://youtu.be/bcDBJJkWvDk

I think, I would have Magic’s vote too.

Not sure if you are aware but he is probably a laker fan too, just vm him to come vote like the others

GREATNESS ONE
06-10-2018, 01:28 AM
https://youtu.be/EDksoPbL3nc

mngopher35
06-10-2018, 01:32 AM
https://youtu.be/EDksoPbL3nc

Haha MJ was great no doubt. We are long past this being any sort of basketball discussion/debate and I am not gonna go around pming people etc. back and forth to get votes

GREATNESS ONE
06-10-2018, 01:36 AM
https://youtu.be/w0BQKX_lszY

lmao, I just don't see a how you can stop MJ w/o no perimeter defense... MJ routinely scored on Robinson with ease, and now you're supposed to slow him down to averages he got 35+ppg without hand checking? and unless Marion will be scoring 30+ppg, I don't see how you will get much production from your wings/guards. You have even a worse bench on the wings, absolute 0 answers for MJ.

GREATNESS ONE
06-10-2018, 01:38 AM
Haha MJ was great no doubt. We are long past this being any sort of basketball discussion/debate and I am not gonna go around pming people etc. back and forth to get votes

you got the usual "click" votes. ;) just don't see how your team full of losers and players unable to get it done in their primes, can beat a driven upset MJ.

13-10

mngopher35
06-10-2018, 01:50 AM
you got the usual "click" votes. ;) just don't see how your team full of losers and players unable to get it done in their primes, can beat a driven upset MJ.

13-10

People that voted for me have been in the other matchups voting etc what do you mean? You have all but 3 votes coming from laker forum/fans and you have vmed multiple personally lolol. 90% didn't vote in the other matchups either haha. Has anyone but LG made a post in here then voted for you? Even then his PR's show he doesn't actually think that way. I get why he would vote you here it makes sense for him moving forward too.

Are you really arguing this right now with how you played the matchup, wtf? Like I don't care in the end it's just a fun game but I play to debate basketball not just see how many psd friends we can pm/get to vote. If anyone was going for just click votes here it was obviously you though, I constantly was looking to debate until you just weren't responding anymore.

GREATNESS ONE
06-10-2018, 02:13 AM
There was no debate, you have 0 answers for MJ. Also this series caught on during the worst time (during the weekend, I work over 36 hours) so did the best I can with posts, until I realized it was the same ole "click" votes and you'll be joining them (click) next round, it's the same **** every year, this was 6/8-0 in favor of you before we even posted and it will be next round, no matter who I'm playing lmfao because Mookie Blaylock/Vince Carter are going to shut down MJ, or how much better Malone/Drexler are than MJ etc etc etc even though Jordan killed them BOTH. Now you're trying to tell me MJ would get "slowed" w/o hand checking by Shawn LOL Marion.

All good, most of these ATRD matches have little to no votes, this is the second time a battle went 4+pages, 1,000 views, and over 24 votes. All I am doing is asking people to come look at the match-up. I guess, I'm in the minority to believe your team full of under-achievers can beat a Zen Master coached MJ/Pau/Artest team, with players like Embiid(would be sexy in the triangle), Sikma a great shooter and post player, intelligent passer. I just don't see it happening, oh yea the "Triangle is like running the wish bone" **** like that is hilarious. It's like saying you can't win a Superbowl by running the football and playing great defense.

Lakers + Giants
06-10-2018, 02:19 AM
I just want to point out that G1 and I actually went at it on chatzy several times because I stated how I wouldn't vote for him just because he's a homie and a Laker fan. Hell, even last series I voted against him and argued how much better raps team was.

You're correct that I had you way higher than G1, but that was before he acquired sikma. I still think your team is better built overall tbh, it's why I had you 2nd. But I legitimately believe it's a bad matchup for you. Imo you each hold two advantages and there's 1 wash, sorry, but in that scenario I give MJ the tiebreaker. I'm not trying to upset anyone, I'm just posting and giving my reasoning because I figured it's better than just voting without giving any reason why.

Lakers + Giants
06-10-2018, 02:22 AM
Also want to add that I honestly didn't vote to avoid you in a future matchup. But I understand your frustration, I did have you ranked significantly higher.

I truthfully think this matchup isn't in your favor, obviously nothing I can do to change your opinion because your team is superior, I just don't believe this matchup is too kind to you.

Lakers + Giants
06-10-2018, 02:26 AM
My guess is some GMs vote without giving their reasoning for this specific reason. They don't want to be called out and risk being spited. I fear that too tbh, but I'm just trying to stay true to the game.

mngopher35
06-10-2018, 02:27 AM
There was no debate, you have 0 answers for MJ. Also this series caught on during the worst time (during the weekend, I work over 36 hours) so did the best I can with posts, until I realized it was the same ole "click" votes and you'll be joining them (click) next round, it's the same **** every year, this was 6/8-0 in favor of you before we even posted and it will be next round, no matter who I'm playing lmfao because Mookie Blaylock/Vince Carter are going to shut down MJ, or how much better Malone/Drexler are than MJ etc etc etc even though Jordan killed them BOTH. Now you're trying to tell me MJ would get "slowed" w/o hand checking by Shawn LOL Marion. All good, most of these ATRD matches have little to no votes, this is the second time a battle went 4+pages, 1,000 views, and over 24 votes. All I am doing is asking people to come look at the match-up. I guess, I'm in the minority to believe your team under-achievers can beat a Zen Master coached MJ/Pau/Artest with players like Embiid(would be sexy in the triangle), Sikma a great shooter and post player etc. I just don't see it happening, oh yea the "Triangle is like running the wish bone" **** like that is hilarious. Like saying you can't win a Superbowl by running the football and playing great defense.

There wasn't a debate because you just kept saying this over and over and never responding to my points lol. For like the 5th time this has been covered multiple times in my posts if you wanted to break down what I have said you easily could.

It's whatever I don't blame you for being busy but I guess you had the time to pm those guys still instead of responding haha. I just play these for basketball discussion and this was easily the most "political" and least "basketball" related game I have probably played on psd so far. I don't do the whole pander for votes thing unless you count my arguments in thread.

I have no idea where you are going with this click stuff, that's like all of your votes none of them posted or even voted in other threads. The people that have posted/been involved in other games have mostly sided with me as have large majority the non laker fans you recruited. It's whatever at this point but again wtf are you complaining about here when u were the one actively searching for votes from friends here etc? I agree little to no votes on these games suck, it also means a few friends can be the difference quite easily which has played to your strengths so far.

mngopher35
06-10-2018, 02:34 AM
I just want to point out that G1 and I actually went at it on chatzy several times because I stated how I wouldn't vote for him just because he's a homie and a Laker fan. Hell, even last series I voted against him and argued how much better raps team was.

You're correct that I had you way higher than G1, but that was before he acquired sikma. I still think your team is better built overall tbh, it's why I had you 2nd. But I legitimately believe it's a bad matchup for you. Imo you each hold two advantages and there's 1 wash, sorry, but in that scenario I give MJ the tiebreaker. I'm not trying to upset anyone, I'm just posting and giving my reasoning because I figured it's better than just voting without giving any reason why.

You had me as a top contender and had him 2 moves away. The big change was Tyson Chandler to Sikma haha.

I mean I covered the reasoning above why I don't think it makes sense feel free to respond to my points. Based on those PR's it would take a pretty big explanation/good arguments though, I definitely am open to hearing them. I think you changing course drastically on me/G1 (aka were very high on me, low on him and voted Raps last round) seems to obvious to ignore with your explanation above. So you are saying Stockton over Gail and Drob over Sikma is similar to Pau/Webber comparison to you? See that seems like extreme bias to me out of no where (you both win two matchups and there's one wash). His other win is over Barry who is a top 50 pick on the regular too.

Let me ask this why did Raps beat him in your mind if I can't? Dennis Johnson/Bowen/Cowens etc. and now I have homecourt. I have a better PG, SF, C than Raps and his advantages are Gervin/Duncan compared to Barry/Drob. Like I said I am open to discussion but based on everything else this seems very odd from you.

GREATNESS ONE
06-10-2018, 02:37 AM
So much Salt. It's taking away the fun of the game. It's nothing personal, I don't even wanna play anymore lmao.

I was just trying to have fun with you guys, I had a blast playing these before with you guys but it is what it is.. I guess we can go back to u/10 vote matches.

mngopher35
06-10-2018, 02:45 AM
So much Salt. It's taking away the fun of the game. It's nothing personal, I don't even wanna play anymore lmao.

I was just trying to have fun with you guys, I had a blast playing these before with you guys but it is what it is.. I guess we can go back to u/10 vote matches.

I mean you have multiple posts complaining on just click stuff or whatever too haha. It seems like you are also a bit salty I called you out for what you were doing, I agree that isn't really fun for me either when it goes that route. I love the basketball discussions and my one matchup didn't really want that.

I have fun playing the games and discussing but the voting is usually tough I agree. This is totally different than normal though and not what I am really into with trying to pander votes etc. I just wanna debate the other guy about basketball/our teams usually. Oh well G1 congrats, you may not want it but you get to keep playing.

mngopher35
06-10-2018, 02:56 AM
Also want to add that I honestly didn't vote to avoid you in a future matchup. But I understand your frustration, I did have you ranked significantly higher.

I truthfully think this matchup isn't in your favor, obviously nothing I can do to change your opinion because your team is superior, I just don't believe this matchup is too kind to you.

I mean even here you seem to understand my team is superior. It mostly seems like you just use the same type of stuff G1 has posted, ignore your own past thoughts/PR's, still admit I am superior etc. you just say it's a bad matchup without much reasoning.

Yet matchup wise you seem to understand I have an elite defender in Marion (your words from PR), I have Drob on Sikma as an advantage and another big advantage at PG Stockton/Goodrich. My frontcourt is much more athletic than his and he lacks defensively there in comparison so the paint should be much more open for me than him (and I have better spacing/playmaking around the court). I haven't really heard what match up wise are these big issues etc. so it's hard for me to take it overly seriously as your real reasoning. You didn't really get into matchups you simply said I have two advantages he has two and there is one wash so I choose MJ (extreme basics, no actual match ups discussed AND it equates a Drob/Sikma difference to a Gasol/Webber difference type of thing as your logic).

Lakers + Giants
06-10-2018, 02:57 AM
Raps Had G1 beat at C PF and PG by a long shot.

Cowens, Duncan and Dennis Johnson/ Tony Parker are those players that won their matchups vs him. All players that have proven to perform big when it mattered most.

Also, Bowen was on Jordan, while Marion is clearly the better overall player and a solid defender as well Bowen is imo the superior 1 on 1 defender.

If anything I'm actually being consistent with my reasoning. I have raps the benefit of the doubt for having a superior team that performed big in the postseason. Meanwhile your team has two players that couldn't win IRL because of the same guy your facing in this matchup. DRob and Stockton weren't able to win against Jordan, I can't just ignore that and say they will now that they're together, when Stockton and Malone wasn't too far off this duo.

As for Pau > CWebb. I'm sure most would agree Pau is the superior player. Webber also played on a great team and he most likely has a ring if it isn't for Horry, but we can't ignore how Pau went from loser to winner as soon as he teamed up with Kobe. Hell, he was playing at the same level as Duncan, KG and Dirk at that time. He excelled in that Robin role. KG punked him in the first finals matchup in 08 but CWebb is nowhere near what KG was on the defensive end. I think Pau wins this matchup rather easily. You can't afford to have G1s top two players won their matchups without any defensive resistance. If it was defensive/physical PF then I'd vote in your favor. It's why raps won that matchup for me. Duncan is a monster on both ends, CWebb isn't.

That's my reasoning for voting Raps and why I voted G1 here. I'm honestly surprised you think I'm trying to just bs my vote here, but I can't do much to make you think otherwise.

Redrum187
06-10-2018, 03:02 AM
Most people who do the ATRD know I absolutely HATE Chris Webber. Here's why:


3-Year Peak

Regular season

TS%: .527
Shot attempts: 21.4
3-Point %: 23.9
Shooting: 48.2% of shots 10 feet to < 3 point line where he only shot 42%
Usage Rate: 29.7%

Postseason

TS%: .487
Shot attempts: 21.6
3-Point %: 10.0
Shooting: 28.6% from 10 feet to <16 feet
Shooting: 40.6% from 16 feet to <3 point line
Usage Rate: 28.4%

(They only posted shooting numbers starting in 2000, so I don't have it for the first season of his 3-year peak.)

If I had Stockton on my team, I would absolutely not want Webber on my team. The fugger needed the ball in his hands to be effective... That's why his usage rate is so damn high. To put his usage rate into prospective, John Stockton averaged a 20.2% usage rating in his 3-year peak! I don't want the ball in the hands of a guy that jacks up as many shots as he can regardless of them going in or not.

For someone not hitting midrange jumpers at a high clip, you'd think he would stop taking half his shots from 10 feet and out. Webber is even worse in his 3-year playoff peak. The guy crumbled there. Those are Jumping Joe type of efficiency numbers...

Anyways, I'm not voting for G1 just because of my personal hatred of Chris Webber. Granted, I talk crap about him every ATRD and say how overrated he is. I believe I had Gopher in my top 5 and even over G1. I just think this is a great matchup for G1 where he has an advantage in 3 spots on the starting lineup. I actually liked G1's team more than most people it seems. He without question has the best wing defense, and he has bigs that can space the floor quite well.

MJ is without question the best player in the series. I don't have to add much there. I like Ron Artest over Marion for their respective teams as well (though I am high on Marion). And of course... Pau Gasol is worlds better than Chris Webber in my honest opinion. It's not a simple mathematics game where whoever gets more "greater than's" in the starting unit wins the series either. I just think in addition to having an advantage in 3 out of the 5 starting units, they have a tremendous advantage in playoff pedigree along with the greatest player of all time. There is a reason I ranked Gopher so damn high on my list... he has a lot of talent... and I feel I would have easily voted for him over just about any other team.

This match up sort of makes think of LeBron James and the Cavs beating the 73 win team Golden State Warriors. The Warriors were stacked even before Durant came along, but LeBron and the grit of the Cavs managed to grind out a victory. Chris Webber played worse in the postseason, and while I think people are overly critical of David Robinson's playoff struggles, there is SOME merit to it.

G1 in 7.

Lakers + Giants
06-10-2018, 03:09 AM
RR basically just said what I've been saying but said it better than I ever could've. Lmao.

mngopher35
06-10-2018, 03:10 AM
Most people who do the ATRD know I absolutely HATE Chris Webber. Here's why:


(They only posted shooting numbers starting in 2000, so I don't have it for the first season of his 3-year peak.)

If I had Stockton on my team, I would absolutely not want Webber on my team. The dude was need the ball in his hands to be effective... That's why his usage rate is so damn high. To put his usage rate into prospective, John Stockton averaged a 20.2% usage rating in his 3-year peak! I don't want the ball in the hands of a guy that jacks up as many shots as he can regardless of them going in or not.

For someone not hitting midrange jumpers at a high clip, you'd think he would stop taking half his shots from 10 feet and out. Webber is even worse in his 3-year playoff peak. The guy crumbled there. Those are Jumping Joe type of efficiency numbers...

Anyways, I'm not voting for G1 just because of my personal hatred of Chris Webber. Granted, I talk crap about him every ATRD and say how overrated he is. I believe I had Gopher in my top 5 and even over G1. I just think this is a great matchup for G1 where he has an advantage in 3 spots on the starting lineup. I actually liked G1's team more than most people it seems. He without question has the best wing defense, and he has bigs that can space the floor quite well.

MJ is without question the best player in the series. I don't have to add much there. I like Ron Artest over Marion for their respective teams as well (though I am high on Marion). And of course... Pau Gasol is worlds better than Chris Webber in my honest opinion. It's not a simple mathematics game where whoever gets more "greater than's" in the starting unit wins the series either. I just think in addition to having an advantage in 3 out of the 5 starting units, they have a tremendous advantage in playoff pedigree along with the greatest player of all time. There is a reason I ranked Gopher so damn high on my list... he has a lot of talent... and I feel I would have easily voted for him over just about any other team.

This match up sort of makes think of LeBron James and the Cavs beating the 73 win team Golden State Warriors. The Warriors were stacked even before Durant came along, but LeBron and the grit of the Cavs managed to grind out a victory. Chris Webber played worse in the postseason, and while I think people are overly critical of David Robinson's playoff struggles, there is SOME merit to it.

G1 in 7.

Most of the reasoning is about my 4th option and his efficiency as a 1st option. His role is drastically different on this team and alot of metrics actually would argue his defense as his best attribute (on my team athleticism and passing are great too).

Again people seem to say I lose X amount of matchups but include like Marion/Webber to Artest/Gasol. Those are extremely close and while you can think either way it really should be obvious this isn't even remotely close to Stockton/Drob against Gail/Sikma. It really seems like people keep saying I have matchup issues yet not a single one of you has actually talked about the matchups hurt me on court etc. in this series.

mngopher35
06-10-2018, 03:15 AM
Raps Had G1 beat at C PF and PG by a long shot.

Cowens, Duncan and Dennis Johnson/ Tony Parker are those players that won their matchups vs him. All players that have proven to perform big when it mattered most.

Also, Bowen was on Jordan, while Marion is clearly the better overall player and a solid defender as well Bowen is imo the superior 1 on 1 defender.

If anything I'm actually being consistent with my reasoning. I have raps the benefit of the doubt for having a superior team that performed big in the postseason. Meanwhile your team has two players that couldn't win IRL because of the same guy your facing in this matchup. DRob and Stockton weren't able to win against Jordan, I can't just ignore that and say they will now that they're together, when Stockton and Malone wasn't too far off this duo.

As for Pau > CWebb. I'm sure most would agree Pau is the superior player. Webber also played on a great team and he most likely has a ring if it isn't for Horry, but we can't ignore how Pau went from loser to winner as soon as he teamed up with Kobe. Hell, he was playing at the same level as Duncan, KG and Dirk at that time. He excelled in that Robin role. KG punked him in the first finals matchup in 08 but CWebb is nowhere near what KG was on the defensive end. I think Pau wins this matchup rather easily. You can't afford to have G1s top two players won their matchups without any defensive resistance. If it was defensive/physical PF then I'd vote in your favor. It's why raps won that matchup for me. Duncan is a monster on both ends, CWebb isn't.

That's my reasoning for voting Raps and why I voted G1 here. I'm honestly surprised you think I'm trying to just bs my vote here, but I can't do much to make you think otherwise.

I have never accused people of this but I think it seems obvious from Laker fans etc. here and the lack of reasoning/past discussions and PR's made it all seem quite odd. I still don't think anyone has actually covered match ups you guys just keep saying a position with > type of thing.

I just think matchup wise I have less issues than Raps and haven't seen too much of that stuff actually mentioned. Yet that was your reasoning here. Considering I am more talented and you say I am superior etc. (while theirs was "close" and that gave him the slight edge as away team) makes me think you are clearly reaching/hanging on those couple arguments.

Redrum187
06-10-2018, 03:28 AM
Most of the reasoning is about my 4th option and his efficiency as a 1st option. His role is drastically different on this team and alot of metrics actually would argue his defense as his best attribute (on my team athleticism and passing are great too).

Again people seem to say I lose X amount of matchups but include like Marion/Webber to Artest/Gasol. Those are extremely close and while you can think either way it really should be obvious this isn't even remotely close to Stockton/Drob against Gail/Sikma. It really seems like people keep saying I have matchup issues yet not a single one of you has actually talked about the matchups hurt me on court etc. in this series.

I totally get your point of view... but your 4th option thinks he's the 1st option but has the efficiency of someone who should be the last option. He's like Westbrook who was really OKC's number 1 option when Durant was there. He averaged more shot attempts... but Durant averaged more points.

I do agree, Stockton is a lot better than Gail and Robinson is a lot better than Sikma. Maybe the gap in those 2 positions would really crush peak MJ. But you have to admit something... Some players played so well in the postseason, that in spite of their elite level of play, they didn't go far in the playoffs or they didn't win it all. Dirk Nowitzki is the perfect example of this. If you look at his playoff stats before he won his ring in 2011, you'll see he was an efficient 25/10 guy. People labeled him a choker because of the 2007 playoffs... Many didn't give Dirk the proper respect when he proved he was an elite playoff performer, his team just didn't win. Now then, there are guys like Webber, and some would say David Robinson (I wouldn't be as critical with him), who just crumbled under pressure. I also think John Stockton gets a ton of unfair wrap for not being able to beat MJ in the finals... Eerily coincidentally, John Stockton may not even be able to get passed MJ in an online ATRD.

mngopher35
06-10-2018, 03:29 AM
My team isn't built on each matchup being a number one option etc. at all type of thing. The diversity and ability of each takes the pressure off each individual in the same way as that GS team someone mentioned. The key is I don't have any sort of actual weak link on the court at any time they all CAN score and I can pick and choose the best matchups each series to attack type of thing.

I have write ups guys if you really believe this matchup stuff I ask you please reference those and make a real case about my problems I haven't covered etc. and how he would handle those mismatches for me like Drob, Marion on Goodrich etc.

Here is Webber/Gasol head to head matchups from 01-07

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&player_id1_hint=Chris+Webber&player_id1_select=Chris+Webber&player_id1=webbech01&idx=players&player_id2_hint=Pau+Gasol&player_id2_select=Pau+Gasol&player_id2=gasolpa01&idx=players

Webber has pts, assists, is .6 off in rebounds and shoots a better percentage. My 4th best player and his 2nd best

mngopher35
06-10-2018, 03:39 AM
I totally get your point of view... but your 4th option thinks he's the 1st option but has the efficiency of someone who should be the last option. He's like Westbrook who was really OKC's number 1 option when Durant was there. He averaged more shot attempts... but Durant averaged more points.

I do agree, Stockton is a lot better than Gail and Robinson is a lot better than Sikma. Maybe the gap in those 2 positions would really crush peak MJ. But you have to admit something... Some players played so well in the postseason, that in spite of their elite level of play, they didn't go far in the playoffs or they didn't win it all. Dirk Nowitzki is the perfect example of this. If you look at his playoff stats before he won his ring in 2011, you'll see he was an efficient 25/10 guy. People labeled him a choker because of the 2007 playoffs... Many didn't give Dirk the proper respect when he proved he was an elite playoff performer, his team just didn't win. Now then, there are guys like Webber, and some would say David Robinson (I wouldn't be as critical with him), who just crumbled under pressure. I also think John Stockton gets a ton of unfair wrap for not being able to beat MJ in the finals... Eerily coincidentally, John Stockton may not even be able to get passed MJ in an online ATRD.

I mean he has Stockton to help create, Drob to take best defender, can play Barry off him in a sense with screens etc. He hasn't had a team at this level either to allow him to take easy buckets and not need creation in nearly the same way. His defense is a key part of the appeal as well and that works in my favor with Gasol. I posted head to head overall above and even Webber in his final years (06/07) when Pau was an all star they had 3 matchups.

Webber: 24.3 ppg, 8.66 rpg, 5.33 assists on 59.7%
Gasol: 16.66 ppg, 9.33 rpg, 2.66 apg on 37.25%

This is getting closer to peak Gasol and the final years of Webber too. I dunno how you guys can use this as one of your oG1 has the PF advantage and equate it to Stockton over Gail etc. It just doesn't make much sense basketball wise imo and is definitely not a matchup issue like is being implied. Even at these ages Webber was not only not an issue but actually killing the matchup.

You see what you did is point out that Dirk was very similar but his credit was drastically different. Why? His supporting cast and how they stepped up as much as anything else. I agree that some people (especially so far with their arguments in here) are ignoring the obvious fact that different/better teammates are huge factors etc. but if you can see this and point it out why hold it against my team in the same way they are (or in the same way people did with Dirk, I agree there too same logic).

Are you voting based on these "unfair" reps or just pointing it out? Seems like you understand the basic concept of different teams/situations playing a part in getting rings etc. over just the individual with everything you say. I fully am on board with you but this is helping my case.

Edit: to emphasize your big issue for me in this matchup was Webber and that older version was 24ppg on great efficiency irl against gasol. Even if I did believe he wouldn't be capable of fitting in that's production of take any day haha. You guys would use this as a big advantage in your write ups if someone had this production probably.

mngopher35
06-10-2018, 05:03 AM
So to be clear given that above and thinking and how you guys have talked about "matchups" and just used that position by position thing.

Looking at Marion/Artest https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&player_id1_hint=Metta+World+Peace&player_id1_select=Metta+World+Peace&player_id1=artesro01&idx=players&player_id2_hint=Shawn+Marion&player_id2_select=Shawn+Marion&player_id2=mariosh01&idx=players
They are somewhat similar but marion is more efficient/better rebounder.

So you could make the argument that matchup wise irl both my SF and PF won their battles. That would be 4/5 positions for me with Stockton/Drob and them based on irl. Now I am not saying it is drastic or a gamechanger or anything (like it kinda was for you guys with Webber and Gasol somehow clearly better) but if you even call it equal and then see Stockton/Barry/Drob to Goodrich/MJ/Sikma...

Think of the top 3 players from each side in the Bulls/Jazz series and then think about that comparison of trios above. Stockton/Barry/Drob is BETTER than Stockton/Malone/Hornacek AND Pippen/Rodman to Goodrich/Sikma is a huge drop off for MJ . Like I said this is a team game and while MJ is amazing even he has lost with Pippen before and those two aren't Pippen.

Again despite having the clear advantage in numbers irl I am just saying they need to be even for this to be true. You guys call me superior, great fit and I have all of these advantages here so I just don't get the reasoning you are coming up with as if there are mismatches for me here and my position by position stuff is a negative etc.

dhopisthename
06-10-2018, 12:20 PM
I think considering the massive talent gap this is much closer then it should be. Marion is a below average option to be covering the best offensive player probably all time. However I just think that Gophers team has so much more talent that I can't imagine even Jordan pushing through. Also where is g1's spacing coming from? he doesn't have one starter who is a reliable 3 point shooter except MJ who is a 33% career 3pt shooter. like you don't need 4 3pt shooters to have good spacing with Gasol and Sikma who can hit it from the free throw line, but you have to have 1 guy who can sit at the 3pt line and have the defense respect him.

GREATNESS ONE
06-10-2018, 12:23 PM
15-11

mngopher35
06-10-2018, 02:37 PM
15-11

Congrats G1, hope you take it all the way

KnicksorBust
06-10-2018, 02:45 PM
null

Not smart bc then MJ is guarding the primary ball handler and 6'1 goodrich would have to guard 6'7 scoring machine rick barry or 6'7 athletic freak shawn marion. I guess he gets marion but I am not thrilled with it.

jaydubb
06-10-2018, 02:51 PM
I'm going barrachos. I've been thinking about this one for a while because gopher has home court advantage, but also has players that don't play as good in the postseason. Whereas G1 has players that have come up big repeatedly in the postseason. I think the big matchups are gophers front court against G1s front court and then it's MJ against Barry in the back court as the main perimeter scorers. I think G1 has good defense in the front court in mahorn, embiid, and sikma that can, at least, slow down Robinson and webber. I also think a rotation of MJ and ron artest versus Barry would give Barry a very hard time but I don't see anybody is giving MJ a hard time at all, even Paul pressey who MJ actually played pretty well against and on those paul pressey teams, MJ also had to play against two time DPOY sidney moncrief as well during those matchups so MJ put up great numbers against better back court defense. I think the individual matchups overall favors barrachos

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

Shammyguy3
06-10-2018, 03:56 PM
Gopher is perfecly constructed without a weakness. G1 is a well constructed team without any shooting.


Gopher

GREATNESS ONE
06-10-2018, 04:31 PM
Congrats G1, hope you take it all the way

Was a honor battling you my dude, you’re super classy and really enjoyed playing this game with you. Appreciate the kind words, I’ll do my best to not let you down. Great match.

GREATNESS ONE
06-10-2018, 04:32 PM
16-13 final.

valade16
06-10-2018, 06:41 PM
LA Borrachos win.

Raps18-19 Champ
06-10-2018, 06:43 PM
Why are we getting double the votes in this matchup instead of the other one?

JAZZNC
06-11-2018, 08:17 AM
The power that MJ has is almost laughable. I mean this is an all time redraft with Pau Gasol as his second best player and easily "beat" a MUCH better team. And literally the only argument from Jordan's GM was saying "angry Jordan" over and over....ugh. oh well, such is PSD.

GREATNESS ONE
06-11-2018, 09:38 AM
https://youtu.be/PRCTp57LQro

JAZZNC
06-11-2018, 10:44 AM
https://youtu.be/PRCTp57LQro

Stay classy bro!

mngopher35
06-11-2018, 12:05 PM
The power that MJ has is almost laughable. I mean this is an all time redraft with Pau Gasol as his second best player and easily "beat" a MUCH better team. And literally the only argument from Jordan's GM was saying "angry Jordan" over and over....ugh. oh well, such is PSD.

Nah it's all good, I thought so at first but then pointed out what was happening. 13 votes I got which was more than any other games winner so I appreciate yours and others votes. I agree is discussion/matchups are pointless in these now which is a bummer as it's been going downhill and clearly just useless at this point. In general these games are just less active at this point which is a key.

He asked lakers forum/vm'd to friends to come vote and got a ton of help that way was the key. I think 4 of his votes weren't through laker forum posters type thing so it really wasn't even MJ related I had a 13-4 lead or so without this factor. We just don't get enough votes to overcome 10+ like that