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View Full Version : NBA All-Time Redraft Playoffs 1st Round (Team Rosh v Scottish Highlanders)



valade16
06-04-2018, 09:09 AM
Every year Members of PSD participate in a draft of all players all-time in an attempt to make the best team possible and win in a playoff determined by fellow members of PSD.

This years rules included being able to only start 2 players from the 00's and 1 from the 70's and earlier.

Look over the two teams and vote on which team you think would win in a 7 game series. The top team has home-court advantage for this series.

Team Rosh - Homecourt Advantage

C: Shaquille O'Neal (34) | Wes Unseld (10) | Mychal Thompson (4)
PF: Wes Unseld (20) | Robert Horry (28)
SF: Grant Hill (34) | Stephen Jackson (14) | Cedric Maxwell
SG: Sidney Moncrief (33) | Kyrie irving (13)
PG: Kyrie Irving (20) | Deron Williams (28)

v

Scottish Highlanders

PG: Chris Paul - Isaiah Thomas
SG: David Thompson - Avery Bradley
SF: Dale Ellis - Gerald Wallace
PF: Dirk Nowitzki - Dan Issel
C: Robert Parish - Arvydas Sabonis

Shammyguy3
06-04-2018, 01:58 PM
I have big boy Robert Parish who guarded the elite centers of the 80s and 90s going up against Shaq. Honestly, Parish should be able to handle him one one one which allows me to play everyone else. CP3 guardings Irving, and CP3 is one of the best defensive points of all time. I have Thompson guarding Moncrief most of the time on the floor, with Bradley taking turns on Irving and Squid. Dale Ellis guarding Grant Hill will be difficult, but I have Gerald Wallace to come in off the bench.

I don't see their offense works though. My team has a clear functioning offense, with CP3 running the show, Dirk as the pick and roll/pick and pop big that spaces the floor, Thompson as a secondary ball-handler, and Ellis a pure sniper from deep that doesn't demand the ball to be effective. Parish is a great low-post scorer too.

Their offense has a ball-hog in Irving taking the ball from the more efficient playmakers. And then there is Shaq, who will slow everything down. My team will be able to push the ball up the floor and play a fast paced game. To me, this will come down to the more efficient of the 2 offenses as neither teams defense is superb.

CP3's prime of 4 years he posted a 124 ORtg, 58.5ts%, 26.8 PER, 0.259 WS/48, 7.3 OBPM, 27.7 VORP.
Irving's prime of 4 years he posted a 115 ORtg, 58.1ts%, 22.4 PER, 0.180 WS/48, 4.9 OBPM, 12.1 VORP.

Paul, clearly more efficient.

Thompson's prime of 4 years he posted a 115 ORtg, 57.1ts%, 21.0 PER, 0.185 WS/48, 4.0 OBPM, 14.6 VORP
Squid's prime of 4 years he posted a 120 ORtg, 59.0ts%, 20.6 PER, 0.211 WS/48, 4.2 OBPM, 20.8 VORP

Squid is clearly more efficient.

Ellis' prime of 4 years he posted a 118 ORtg, 58.3ts%, 19.3 PER, 0.153 WS/48, 4.5 OBPM, 12.4 VORP
Hill's prime of 4 years he posted a 108 ORtg, 53.9ts%, 22.7 PER, 0.182 WS/48, 3.0 OBPM, 23.1 VORP

Ellis is the moree efficient offensive scorer here. Hill is a better offensive player overall with his playmaking ability, however he won't have the ball because of Irving's ISO game and Shaq's ISO game, so give me Ellis in this offensive matchup.

Dirk's prime of 4 years he posted a 121 ORtg, 58.9ts%, 26.6 PER, 0.256 WS/48, 4.9 OBPM, and 23.0 VORP
Unseld's prime of 4 years he posted a __ ORtg, 53.4ts%, 17.6 PER, 0.155 WS/48, ___ OBPM, and ___ VORP.
* For unseld, his prime years don't list the ___ numbers. For the 4 best seasons we have those available, he posted a 113 ORtg, a 1.1 OBPM, and a 18.3 VORP.

There is no question who is the better offensive player here. It's Dirk, and by a mile.


Parish's prime of 4 years he posted a 114 ORtg, 57.9ts%, 22.3 PER, 0.200 WS/48, 2.0 OBPM, and 14.4 VORP
Shaq's prime of 4 years he posted a 115 ORtg, 58.1ts%, 30.3 PER, 0.262 WS/48, 5.9 OBPM, and 25.3 VORP.

Shaq is definitely the best offensive player between him and Parish.


On top of all of this, Unseld is a 6'7 center that is playing next to Shaq. Hill is a drive and kick penetrator that won't have the ball. Squid is a penetrator. Shaq clogs the lane with Unseld. Irving is their only good 3 point shooter. Their team will be easy to defend in the half-court because they have only 1 shooter who demands the ball and is otherwise limited offensively.



So let's look at one more thing here. Which offense collectively is better? An offense that has 3 snipers (CP3, Ellis, Dirk) spacing the floor and a behemoth in the paint collecting boards, with a true secondary ball-handler in David Thompson that averaged nearly 26ppg? An offense that is based around their 2 most efficient offensive players?

Or, is it an offense with 4 players crowding the paint, with one of them playing the more inefficient back to the basket game with limited ball-movement and their best 3 point shooter actually being on the ball most of the time as the premier perimeter ball-handler?



Honestly guys. They have atough team. But they are also playing Robert Horry 28 minutes a game! They're choosing to play a 12th man in an all-time redraft game nearly teh same amount of minutes as Wes Unseld. THat doesn't make any sense. THey don't even have a true backup shooting guard.

Their rotation is a mess, their lineup construction is a mess, and they will be clogging the lane making it easier to defend.


Scottish Highlanders in 6.

KnicksorBust
06-04-2018, 06:11 PM
I like highlanders a lot. Interesting rosh has Horry and Sjax for Dirk. Almost fell *** backward into that dream defensive combo.

roshan3ai
06-04-2018, 09:06 PM
Shaq vs Robert Parish aka "Slim" - Shaq in his prime was virtually unarguable and I don't see an answer for Shaq on Shammy's roster. Shaq has an absurd 95 pound advantage on Parish, he just wouldn't be a match in the post. Sure, Parish played against top centers like Moses, Hakeem, and KAJ but those guys are finesse bigs in the post. Shaq's strength advantage is a huge problem in this series. And when Parish inevitably gets in foul trouble, Sabonis won't have much of a shot of stopping him (https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&player_id1_hint=Arvydas+Sabonis&player_id1_select=Arvydas+Sabonis&player_id1=sabonar01&idx=players&player_id2_hint=Shaquille+O%27Neal&player_id2_select=Shaquille+O%27Neal&player_id2=onealsh01&idx=players)


Wings Matchup - Moncrief and Hill are extremely efficient and tough two way players while Thompson and Dale Ellis are very effective scorers who struggle on D. The Highlanders are asking far too much of Parish and Ellis to stop Shaq and Hill (6 APG) in a two man pick and roll game. Both of these guys have huge advantages one on one. Moncrief, who averaged 21.1 PPG, 4.4 APG (another quality passer) on , should find alot of shooting room and cutting space versus Thompson, a mediocre defender.


Countering CP3 - Obviously CP has an advantage versus Kyrie. But Kyrie hasn't faired poorly versus CP3 in their 9 career matchups, averaging 19.7 PPG with a TS% of 55% and 3P% of 43% while CP3 averaged 16.6 PPg with a TS% 54% and 10.8 APG. Kyrie will also see some time on Thompson while DPOYx2 Moncrief hounds CP3. Although Kyrie versus Thompson is in their favor, we'd rather them run their offense through Thompson while neutralizing CP3.


Kyrie's Fit - Kyrie has shown to be able to score on catch and shoots and on isos in the biggest situations. He hit the biggest shot of the finals versus the unanimous MVP and arguably outplayed him in the finals. He's the kind of player who ups his game in the biggest moments and in the playoffs. And he fits well in his roll as a secondary ball handler while spotting up from three on catch and shoots and off-ball screens by Unseld.


Horry Closing - Robert Horry will be part of the closing lineup. He's another proven player in his role as a spread big man who can defend. Being able to throw Horry, Jackson, Hill in stints at Dirk should give Dirk some fits. Horry also is a proven floor spacer and big time shooter. Kyrie, Horry, and Moncrief are all plus perimeter shooters giving Hill and Shaq some space to operate.

mightybosstone
06-05-2018, 06:53 PM
Wow, people are giving Shaq a LOT of credit here when shammy's team seems incredibly well-constructed. And who do you put the 6'7" Unseld on? You almost can't put him on Dirk, but you also can't move Shaq from under the basket, so where is he going to play? As much as Shaq on Parrish is a decent mismatch, that seems like the far greater mismatch for me.

A 6'7" center on one of the most skilled 7-foot power forwards of all-time seems like a terrible matchup. And I think it's pretty obvious why Rosh avoided bringing that up in his writeup...

Shammyguy3
06-05-2018, 09:56 PM
Wow, people are giving Shaq a LOT of credit here when shammy's team seems incredibly well-constructed. And who do you put the 6'7" Unseld on? You almost can't put him on Dirk, but you also can't move Shaq from under the basket, so where is he going to play? As much as Shaq on Parrish is a decent mismatch, that seems like the far greater mismatch for me.

A 6'7" center on one of the most skilled 7-foot power forwards of all-time seems like a terrible matchup. And I think it's pretty obvious why Rosh avoided bringing that up in his writeup...

I don't get it either

Dunkapolooza
06-06-2018, 05:33 AM
I think you're seriously under estimating what it was like to play unseld. Much taller players, and Kareem even, talked about what a grueling ordeal it was to play unseld.

There are no stats for "boxing out" guys really hard and literally driving them out of the play. No stats for denials or pass outs. Yeah dirk will shoot over him plenty still. Simply too good to stop like a first round kinda guy. but it won't be from where he wants to shoot it from. And he's going to be beat up by the fourth.

Shaq will get where he wants when he wants right? Parish was a tactician and technique guy as much as anything. Bodes well for shaq.

I don't like Kyrie starting though. Hits some big shots but he didn't have to take that shot, so I wonder if he's going to take more shots than the rest of the team would like. Or Horry as a serious go to offense to close. He's basically a jug machine offensively on these courts. Just my thoughts so far.

Dunkapolooza
06-06-2018, 05:44 AM
I also don't think Ellis, dirk, parish seems all that gritty. Or "strong.
". Thompson being undersized to only makes it worse.

JAZZNC
06-06-2018, 08:25 AM
Am I the only one that thinks prime Deron Williams is a better player than prime Kyrie?

NYKalltheway
06-06-2018, 08:50 AM
I think the Highlanders are a much better basketball team than Team Rosh, but they cannot overcome this matchup. Things like this happen.

Shammyguy3
06-06-2018, 09:32 AM
I also don't think Ellis, dirk, parish seems all that gritty. Or "strong.
". Thompson being undersized to only makes it worse.

Thompson is 6'4. Is Wade undersized at 6'4? Is Squid undersized at 6'3 then

Shammyguy3
06-06-2018, 09:53 AM
I think the Highlanders are a much better basketball team than Team Rosh, but they cannot overcome this matchup. Things like this happen.

I honestly don't see it though. 4 of the 5 guys do their damage within 10 feet. They have 3 guys that play best with the ball in their hand during ISO situations.

Their offense just doesnt fit at all, making it super easy to defend

mightybosstone
06-06-2018, 10:15 AM
I think you're seriously under estimating what it was like to play unseld. Much taller players, and Kareem even, talked about what a grueling ordeal it was to play unseld.

There are no stats for "boxing out" guys really hard and literally driving them out of the play. No stats for denials or pass outs. Yeah dirk will shoot over him plenty still. Simply too good to stop like a first round kinda guy. but it won't be from where he wants to shoot it from. And he's going to be beat up by the fourth.

Shaq will get where he wants when he wants right? Parish was a tactician and technique guy as much as anything. Bodes well for shaq.

I don't like Kyrie starting though. Hits some big shots but he didn't have to take that shot, so I wonder if he's going to take more shots than the rest of the team would like. Or Horry as a serious go to offense to close. He's basically a jug machine offensively on these courts. Just my thoughts so far.

Against a more traditional big man, Unseld would be fine. But it's very different playing big, plodding 6'10" guys and keeping them out of the paint than playing an athletic 7-footer like Dirk who can score anywhere on the floor. Kareem was great, but he wasn't going to take you off the dribble 25 feet from the basket or pull up to hit a 23-footer. Unseld is a bad matchup for Dirk. Period.

Shammyguy3
06-06-2018, 11:18 AM
Against a more traditional big man, Unseld would be fine. But tt's very different playing big, plodding 6'10" guys and keeping them out of the paint than playing an athletic 7-footer like Dirk who can score anywhere on the floor. Kareem was great, but he wasn't going to take you off the dribble 25 feet from the basket or pull up to hit a 23-footer. Unseld is a bad matchup for Dirk. Period.

Thanks for understanding thst. Honestly Dirk is arguably better than Shaq offensively, and considering my offense is designed to maximize that and his is designed to hinder Shaq's, this is a shock to me that im not just losing but losing by a lot

NYKalltheway
06-06-2018, 01:32 PM
I honestly don't see it though. 4 of the 5 guys do their damage within 10 feet. They have 3 guys that play best with the ball in their hand during ISO situations.

Their offense just doesnt fit at all, making it super easy to defend

I'll be honest and say that I don't really like that team. It's not a Shaq team, but no one can say that it's not a talented team. They lack depth, they don't have much flexibility but the problem your team has is what mine has in the my corresponding matchup. It simply cannot defend them. It's overwhelming offense and Parish is your best shot stopper but Shaq would run circles around him. If it was anyone other than Shaq you could argue that they're not that good a team, but that center matchup kills your chances.

Your team is great offensively as well, probably more complete overall, but at the end of the day, they'll get easier baskets than you and that's the catalyst.

Dunkapolooza
06-06-2018, 02:57 PM
Thompson is 6'4. Is Wade undersized at 6'4? Is Squid undersized at 6'3 then

Wade has about 20 - 25 lbs on Thompson for starters. But yes squid is undersized. We like to pretend that he can guard anyone on the perimeter but I don't buy that. Back in the 80s he just didn't have to guard as thick of players. Of course in this match up squid can guard anyone highlanders have.


Against a more traditional big man, Unseld would be fine. But it's very different playing big, plodding 6'10" guys and keeping them out of the paint than playing an athletic 7-footer like Dirk who can score anywhere on the floor. Kareem was great, but he wasn't going to take you off the dribble 25 feet from the basket or pull up to hit a 23-footer. Unseld is a bad matchup for Dirk. Period.

Plodding is not how I would describe Reed, or Kareem, or a lot of the guys Unseld guarded in his time. Kareem can get to the rim with zero dribbles from like free throw line lol. You lose discipline, reach, or end up on your heels and those guys were going by you.


I think this team gets killed on the boards. Unseld is going to be in contact with Dirk almost the entire game, and Dirk is going to be beat to **** any time he steps inside the three point line. To take any shot at the freethrow or closer Dirk will have to battle with Unseld.

So I'm not saying Dirk won't score. He'll get his 20 / 25 points. But by the fourth quarter those long range jump shots and fadeaways will become increasingly less effective. Nothing will make Shaq less effective here. I think someone like Unseld is better against dirk than long and skinny like a Rasheed


Also who can seriously guard Grant Hill? You're going to rely on Gerald Wallace for what 18 minutes? That's a lot of time for Grant hill to operate vs Ellis.

roshan3ai
06-06-2018, 04:00 PM
Thanks for understanding thst. Honestly Dirk is arguably better than Shaq offensively, and considering my offense is designed to maximize that and his is designed to hinder Shaq's, this is a shock to me that im not just losing but losing by a lot

What?

roshan3ai
06-06-2018, 04:17 PM
Highlanders will get absolutely manhandled low. I know Unseld having to guard Dirk outside will be a mismatch, but Dirk will have to work on defense with unseld setting picks and crashing boards. Dirk has the quickness to give Unseld issues but he sure isn't going to have his way in the post. Unseld was a very good defender during his time.

And who is stopping my wings? Hill and Moncrief are going to get a ton of open looks and both of them are efficient scorers and play makers.

At least I have multiple looks to stop Dirk with Unseld, Horry, and Jackson. I dony see anyone on Boston who can even hinder Shaq. It's a 95 pound advantage he has on Parish........

Kyrie has also shown he can thrive with other scorers on his team. I love his fit on this team because he can bail out an offense late in the shot clock but also space the floor and knock down open jumpers. Hill is still the primary ball handler Ala lebron, but Kyrie will get his shots. Just because he thrives in iso doesn't mean he isn't efficient, he has a 58% TS% in the regular season and 57.3% TS% in the postseason with very good box score plus minus numbers.

roshan3ai
06-06-2018, 04:18 PM
Also just an FYI I'm using three year peak numbers for everyone.

mightybosstone
06-06-2018, 05:08 PM
Plodding is not how I would describe Reed, or Kareem, or a lot of the guys Unseld guarded in his time. Kareem can get to the rim with zero dribbles from like free throw line lol. You lose discipline, reach, or end up on your heels and those guys were going by you.
There's a big difference between those guys, though. Within 5-7 feet? Unseld is a tough guy to score on. But Dirk made a career out of shooting over forwards he was taller than, and he's being guarded by a guy who's a good 5-6 inches shorter. His fallaway jumper is going to be essentially uncontested all series long. That's a problem no matter how you try to argue it.


I think this team gets killed on the boards.
Now this is a valid point. And if you wanted to make a strong case one way or the other, this is pretty good place to start. Parish and Shaq posted pretty much identical TRB% numbers in their careers and Paul has an obvious edge over Kyrie, but Rosh's wings and forwards are just absolutely superior rebounders. That's definitely an advantage in his favor.


Unseld is going to be in contact with Dirk almost the entire game, and Dirk is going to be beat to **** any time he steps inside the three point line. To take any shot at the freethrow or closer Dirk will have to battle with Unseld. So I'm not saying Dirk won't score. He'll get his 20 / 25 points. But by the fourth quarter those long range jump shots and fadeaways will become increasingly less effective.
I'll just agree to disagree on this one. It doesn't matter where Dirk is on the floor... He'll always have an open jumper when Unseld is on him. Will have have a tougher time scoring in the post? Sure. But I don't see Unseld defending him at an elite level on dribble drives or jump shots.


Nothing will make Shaq less effective here. I think someone like Unseld is better against dirk than long and skinny like a Rasheed
I think Parish isn't given enough credit in this matchup. Look at his numbers against Moses over their careers together:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&player_id1_hint=Moses+Malone&player_id1_select=Moses+Malone&player_id1=malonmo01&idx=players&player_id2_hint=Robert+Parish&player_id2_select=Robert+Parish&player_id2=parisro01&idx=players

Moses clearly one those matchups, but Parish held his own on a regular basis. I don't think he'll nearly be the pushover you're implying.


Also who can seriously guard Grant Hill? You're going to rely on Gerald Wallace for what 18 minutes? That's a lot of time for Grant hill to operate vs Ellis.
Now that is a legitimate concern as well. Shammy's wing defense is certainly suspect. But on the flip side, I'm not sure Rosh has a great answer to guarding the 1-2 punch of CP3 and Thompson. Between the two of them, one of those guys is going to absolutely destroy Kyrie over a 7-game series on the offensive end of the floor.

Dunkapolooza
06-07-2018, 03:21 PM
I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying about Unseld. Its not about stopping Dirk. Cause he can't, and really he wasn't much of a "stopper." Yet he won MVP, mainly for his defense.

Its about wearing Dirk down. Maybe dirk scores 25 pts. But 4 pts in the 4th. Maybe Dirk averages 25 pts but in game 6 / 7 he only scores 20 on human level eff. Simply because he's too bruised and battered to be fluid and loose. I mean that bullets team did not win because they just shut down teams. They didn't win because of Hayes' incredible offense lol. They gooned you up, and I don't care how good Dirk is or how tall, his weakness is physical strength.

When it comes to crunch time, in the fourth, in game seven, Shaq, Squid, and his main offensive players are going to be less beat up than your scorers. I don't see this as an automatic advantage either, its just the reason I would pick his team at the end of a close game or end of a series.

valade16
06-07-2018, 04:19 PM
Team Rosh wins.