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View Full Version : Kobe and Pau under D'Antoni, Today



Chronz
06-02-2018, 12:07 PM
Why didn't Kobe thrive with D'Antoni under his system the way almost every other play maker had before and since then?

Why did Pau suffer the most? What if he had the 3pt shot he does today, does the system work all of sudden?

Has D'Antoni become less rigid in his style of play cuz todays Rockets definitely dont play the same kind of style his Suns did but that could partly be a result of more switching defenses or overall team talent. Not sure.

Did Dwight simply ruin it for everyone?



Now Kobe averaged the best assist numbers of his career overall so not thriving is abit much, but he didn't exactly explode the way say James Harden did (and even Harden thought D'Antoni was crazy for predicting his assists numbers doubling). Maybe Kobe does better given a better cast built for that style but I just remember Kobe telling Coach "D" it was time to scrap his offense and start grinding out victories so the 2 kind of butted heads. Maybe D'Antoni has learned not to grapple with his stars today?

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Anyways, if you wanted Kobe and Pau to play in a D'Antoni style offense today, what big moves would you make to the roster and what major differences would have to play out for it to work.

TrueFan420
06-02-2018, 12:21 PM
Kobe was much older when he entered the system with a lot of miles on his body. He wasn't in his prime like Harden is. They also had to many bigs and not enough wings to maxamize the system.

How old are they? And what's the roster your working with to make moves or is it just those two and starting a franchise.

Vinylman
06-02-2018, 12:25 PM
really? you might want to look at how many games key players missed in the only year kobe was healthy... not to mention they were integrating multiple new starters...


you understand that Dantoni benched Gasol for earl clark to clear out room for howard who couldn't run pick and roll to save his life (this according to Nash)


Are you also forgetting that Dantoni was hired after the season started?


The mistake the Lakers made was hiring Dantoni

Chronz
06-02-2018, 12:28 PM
Kobe was much older when he entered the system with a lot of miles on his body. He wasn't in his prime like Harden is. They also had to many bigs and not enough wings to maxamize the system.

How old are they? And what's the roster your working with to make moves or is it just those two and starting a franchise.

What would it take? I should've left this more open ended. Transplant that same team today, would Pau having a 3pt shot have done the trick, would Kobe have to be 2 years younger? Would you keep Pau or Dwight for that system?

Chronz
06-02-2018, 12:30 PM
really? you might want to look at how many games key players missed in the only year kobe was healthy... not to mention they were integrating multiple new starters...
How would they fare if 100% healthy? Kobe and Dwight played enough games to be All-NBA. Im curious to see how they fared with 3 of the 4 there considering Pau did play half the season and had chemistry with Kobe already. Nash I understand, thats why Im ignoring him.

Vinylman
06-02-2018, 12:43 PM
How would they fare if 100% healthy? Kobe and Dwight played enough games to be All-NBA. Im curious to see how they fared with 3 of the 4 there considering Pau did play half the season and had chemistry with Kobe already. Nash I understand, thats why Im ignoring him.

I think it is kind obvious...

they started 12-19 with DantoniÖ

he scrapped his system, benched Pau, moved nash off ball and made kobe the primary ball handler...

they finished 28-12 although Kobe pretty much killed himself playing the 2nd most minutes of anyone in the league next to I think lillard. Kobe injures his achilles

the end

basically once they learned to play together (not Dantoni's system) they played at a clip of 59 wins

the problem with the premise of your question is that they didn't run the Dantoni system yet still had success for a team having no preseason, integrating multiple players, and dealing with significant injuries.

TrueFan420
06-02-2018, 02:02 PM
What would it take? I should've left this more open ended. Transplant that same team today, would Pau having a 3pt shot have done the trick, would Kobe have to be 2 years younger? Would you keep Pau or Dwight for that system?

They'd need to move Dwight or Pau they don't need both. Hill could likely have been moved as well. But I'd get keeping him as a back up big. Get more 3 and D players to surround Kobe and whichever of Pau/Dwight they kept. Play Ron Artest as a PF. Have Nash as a super sub and run the second unit when Kobe comes off. And be healthy.

Lakers + Giants
06-02-2018, 02:13 PM
Nash said Dwight was a diva all season long. Just saying.

ChrisDudley
06-02-2018, 02:28 PM
Absolutely ridiculous thread.

Kobe is one of the ultimate winners in history and he won back to back titles with the second worst supporting cast for such a feat in history. (Hakeem's Rockets had the worst cast for a back to back title team)

That Laker team was old and injured and uninspired; Pau was never the same after Brown slept with his girlfriend.

jaydubb
06-02-2018, 03:03 PM
Pretty much everyone one on that team sucked besides kobe. Also, Pau was being misused. Nash played basketball about the same way my 100 year old great grandfather does, except my great grandfather has a much better back.

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flea
06-02-2018, 04:26 PM
The league wasn't this total P&R switch-fest that the rules changes have made it today and Kobe just never was a primarily P&R player even once the league switched. I'm sure if he was 20 today he would be (because you can't be anything else in the NBA today, they have decided it is the peak of basketball for some reason) but he played a different style. Kobe was a more subtle player too, and basketball now is anything but subtle. It is come off screen, drive, pass back out, come off screen, drive, lob to big man or cutter - rinse and repeat for 48 minutes.

Pau too wasn't really a P&R big and still isn't to a degree, even though he's been forced to. The only big that really went from dominant scoring big to dominant P&R big was Duncan. Even Howard is still trying to find a team that will let him fool around in the post, bad back and all.

JasonJohnHorn
06-03-2018, 10:41 AM
I feel like there were several things at play here.

1. That first year D'Antoni didn't have a pre-season with them. He picked them up a couple of weeks, and that makes a big difference.

2. Injuries/decline. Nash was not the same player, and he only played 50 games. Pau also missed a big chunk of the season.

3. Dwight. I remember analysists going over highligths of the Nash/Amare pick and roll, and then the Dwight/Nelson pick and rolls, and anticipating how effective the Nash/Dwight P&R would be. From my understanding (and I may be mistaken), Dwight simply didn't want to do the P&R. He wanted to post up, he wanted to use the mid-range jumper he'd been working on in the game. Neither of which he was effective at (he could score in the post, yes, but often committed offensive fouls with that shoulder-drop-spear move, as demonstrated by Pau in the finals).


In addition to that, Kobe worked well in the triangle because he grew up idolizing Jordan and moulded his game after MJ. That doesn't translate to succes with D'Antoni. Case and point: Melo.


Melo was an iso player. D'Antoni's system didn't work with him. Melo also lacked the adept passing skills Kobe had, so that made it even worse.

Kobe was an is player who could passs, but who liked to create on his own and knew how to use the spacing of the other players to his advantage, which is how the triangle functioned. But that didn't work in the 'six-second' offense.

I mean... CP3? Nash? Pass-firsts PGs who can shoot: Perfect for D'Antoni. Harden? Willing passer and great scorer. WAs able to lead the league in assists or come in second or whatever under D'Antoni.


That said, Kobe had his highest assist number with D'Antoni, and his percentages went up from the year before, and given that he was on the decline at the point and never played a well as he did that season in the years that followed, I'd say Kobe did pretty well under D'Antoni. His percentages and assists were higher than they were the two years before: Mike Brown and the strike shortened seasn, and PJAx's last year. And Kobe was injury free both seasons.

I'm not a big D'Antoni fan mind you. He was I'd say is a 'good' coach by NBA standards. A good coach has a good system that they have mastered, and with the right players they can succeed. The wrong players? They will struggle.


Great coaches can use multiple systems to win and play to their players' strengths.


That might be unfair, but I think that's why he sucked in NY. In LAL, though, it was more about injuries, decline, Dwight, and the fact he didn't get go through the pre-season with that roster and get them ready.

mrblisterdundee
06-04-2018, 12:59 AM
really? you might want to look at how many games key players missed in the only year kobe was healthy... not to mention they were integrating multiple new starters...
you understand that Dantoni benched Gasol for earl clark to clear out room for howard who couldn't run pick and roll to save his life (this according to Nash)
Are you also forgetting that Dantoni was hired after the season started?
The mistake the Lakers made was hiring Dantoni

I've always thought that no D'Antoni-coached team would ever win a championship. I still think you're blaming him too much.
He inherited a team made to run the triangle instead of his system. If I'm designing a team for D'Antoni's system, Nash and Howard are never traded for. You go all in on Point Kobe, and surround him with wings who shoot and defend, with Pau in the middle stretching the floor. Howard wouldn't be terrible in that system because of his defensive prowess, but I'd rather have Pau's versatility.

GREATNESS ONE
06-04-2018, 01:38 AM
MJ/Pau :drool:

Vinylman
06-04-2018, 08:01 AM
I've always thought that no D'Antoni-coached team would ever win a championship. I still think you're blaming him too much.
He inherited a team made to run the triangle instead of his system. If I'm designing a team for D'Antoni's system, Nash and Howard are never traded for. You go all in on Point Kobe, and surround him with wings who shoot and defend, with Pau in the middle stretching the floor. Howard wouldn't be terrible in that system because of his defensive prowess, but I'd rather have Pau's versatility.

dude... I am not hating on Dandummy Ö. I am just saying when you have a roster like the Lakers had when they hired him you don't hire him...

do you even remember who the other option to hire was? You know that guy that won 11 championships as a head coach.

Jimbaco Buss ****ed it up not that I think it would have gotten the Lakers any further that year but at least there would have been some continuity.

Ishkabibble
06-04-2018, 12:02 PM
All due respect but this probably belongs in the Lakers team forum.

GREATNESS ONE
06-04-2018, 12:04 PM
All due respect but this probably belongs in the Lakers team forum.

Lmao no thanks

Ishkabibble
06-04-2018, 08:39 PM
Lmao no thanks

Suit yourself, skippy.

kobe4thewinbang
06-07-2018, 05:10 PM
If you put that team in today's NBA, it'd still be a disaster. If you remove all injuries, it'd still be a disappointment. You have Dwight, who can't shoot, can't shoot free throws, losing his defensive presence. All-around fail. Then you have Nash, probably the highlight of this team if he were healthy. Distributing, making some shots.

But then you have Kobe chucking 3PTers. Kobe is not a good 3PT shooter, 32% average for career and don't even look at his last three years, injuries aside. He was still taking horrible shots. Then you have Gasol, being misused.

D'Antoni is not a good coach.

If the Rockets had a good coach, they'd probably be in the finals right now.

L8kers4life
06-07-2018, 05:59 PM
Why didn't Kobe thrive with D'Antoni under his system the way almost every other play maker had before and since then?

Why did Pau suffer the most? What if he had the 3pt shot he does today, does the system work all of sudden?

Has D'Antoni become less rigid in his style of play cuz todays Rockets definitely dont play the same kind of style his Suns did but that could partly be a result of more switching defenses or overall team talent. Not sure.

Did Dwight simply ruin it for everyone?



Now Kobe averaged the best assist numbers of his career overall so not thriving is abit much, but he didn't exactly explode the way say James Harden did (and even Harden thought D'Antoni was crazy for predicting his assists numbers doubling). Maybe Kobe does better given a better cast built for that style but I just remember Kobe telling Coach "D" it was time to scrap his offense and start grinding out victories so the 2 kind of butted heads. Maybe D'Antoni has learned not to grapple with his stars today?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Anyways, if you wanted Kobe and Pau to play in a D'Antoni style offense today, what big moves would you make to the roster and what major differences would have to play out for it to work.



If all were healthy and a few years younger, I would say, Trade Dwight for a PG or a SF to help shoulder the ball handling duties. Dwight refused to run the pick and roll, Pau is a better fit in Dantonis system.

Had Nash stayed healthy and you trade Dwight for someone and Pau as your stretch 5 it could have worked to maybe a Second round exit. Dantoni never even coached D, he literally would say, who ever scored more points wins, we are going to score more points then the other team. It was like he was allergic to D.

numba1CHANGsta
06-07-2018, 11:53 PM
TBH it wasn't D'Antoni's fault the Lakers failed with him. First off the Lakers didn't have the right core of players to run his system, i mean come on Dwight in that system should have been a red flag. Then you had old *** Nash who couldn't seem to stay on the court. And then the system was too much for Kobe who had a lot of mileage and then his achillies explodes. D'Antoni needs young guys and players in their prime in order to be effective, this is why CP3 didnt make it all the way without getting injured and Ariza got cold towards the end. Warriors are playing amazing right now cuz they're young and in their prime. Sure you'll have some injuries once in a while cuz that system worns you down but you need the right players, young, athletic, and who can shoot consistent.

numba1CHANGsta
06-07-2018, 11:59 PM
If all were healthy and a few years younger, I would say, Trade Dwight for a PG or a SF to help shoulder the ball handling duties. Dwight refused to run the pick and roll, Pau is a better fit in Dantonis system.

Had Nash stayed healthy and you trade Dwight for someone and Pau as your stretch 5 it could have worked to maybe a Second round exit. Dantoni never even coached D, he literally would say, who ever scored more points wins, we are going to score more points then the other team. It was like he was allergic to D.

I think the 08-09 Lakers squad would have been perfect under D'Antoni's system

Fish
Kobe
Ariza
LO
Pau

He just came into a bad situation when it was already too late. He wasn't the right fit to what the Lakers had at the time.

KingPosey
06-08-2018, 01:26 AM
really? you might want to look at how many games key players missed in the only year kobe was healthy... not to mention they were integrating multiple new starters...


you understand that Dantoni benched Gasol for earl clark to clear out room for howard who couldn't run pick and roll to save his life (this according to Nash)


Are you also forgetting that Dantoni was hired after the season started?


The mistake the Lakers made was hiring Dantoni
It was even couldnít run it, didnít Dwight flat out try to refuse to run it?

Also losing Mike Dís messiah Nash to back injuries was pretty brutal to the overall game plan as well. I also feel like, when Phoenix couldnít get over the hump, the game turned on Mike Dís style, and now the game is beyond influenced by a lot of what he did

Vinylman
06-08-2018, 09:14 AM
It was even couldnít run it, didnít Dwight flat out try to refuse to run it?

Also losing Mike Dís messiah Nash to back injuries was pretty brutal to the overall game plan as well. I also feel like, when Phoenix couldnít get over the hump, the game turned on Mike Dís style, and now the game is beyond influenced by a lot of what he did

yeah Ö dwightmare was a ***** but there was a lot working against Dantoni like I posted... could kobe and pau thrive in his system during their primes... certainly with the right complimentary players but not at the point in time when they tried to.

The roster would have done better under Phil which is why I said Mike was the wrong hire