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View Full Version : Karl-Anthony Towns, Timberwolves Reportedly 'Not in a Good Place Internally'



More-Than-Most
05-18-2018, 06:56 PM
https://www.prosportsdaily.com/Headlines/ExternalArticle?articleId=513584

More-Than-Most
05-18-2018, 06:58 PM
Wow. If I am the wolves I would clearly keep him but man they could get a game changer for him... Honestly they should offer him up for AD and see if the pelicans take it... They might in all honesty. What about that guy from the spurs... No shot the spurs say no with a towns for KL swap... KL and Butler make things really interesting out west and pop could turn towns into a guy that actually defends.

GREATNESS ONE
05-18-2018, 07:13 PM
Lol

redsox12
05-18-2018, 07:29 PM
According to Zach Lowe on ESPN's Lowe Post Podcast, Karl-Anthony Towns and the Wolves are not in a good place right now.
Lowe also mentioned local Minnesota reporter Darren Wolfson of KSTP had similar thoughts, and ESPN's Brian Windhorst mentioned that the Celtics could possibly take a look at a KAT deal. To be very clear here, there is nothing to report on a trade even being close, so just keep this in mind in July. The Wolves are not going to have cap space and they're one of the shallowest teams in the NBA.

rotoworld

I'm not sure i'd do it but a package of Brown and Rozier could entice the t-wolves.

kobe4thewinbang
05-18-2018, 07:46 PM
Wow. If I am the wolves I would clearly keep him but man they could get a game changer for him... Honestly they should offer him up for AD and see if the pelicans take it... They might in all honesty. What about that guy from the spurs... No shot the spurs say no with a towns for KL swap... KL and Butler make things really interesting out west and pop could turn towns into a guy that actually defends.I like it, but I dunno if KAT has it in him. If he could become Duncan with a 3PT shot, then you do it, no question. Aldridge just isn't. Hell, I'd trade Kawhi and Aldridge for him and Wiggins. But I suspect this may be more or a Team Wiggins v. Team Towns thang.

More-Than-Most
05-18-2018, 07:50 PM
Honestly i get it why towns is pissed... Id be pissed too if I was as good as him offensively and wiggins still takes more shots while complaining about being a 3rd option. lol.

aman_13
05-18-2018, 07:57 PM
The Celtics should be all about Kawhi or Anthony Davis. If it doesn't work, then stick with what you have.

As for KAT, I'm sure they will work it out. Minny cannot afford to lose him.

Jamiecballer
05-18-2018, 08:00 PM
I feel ever less agreeable to a trade for Wiggins than I did before. This is not a good look.

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IndyRealist
05-18-2018, 08:04 PM
Wiggins is causing internal strife and is massively overpaid, and we're floating KAT trades? I think they trade Wiggins to some lottery team needing a 1st option.

kobe4thewinbang
05-18-2018, 08:47 PM
Honestly i get it why towns is pissed... Id be pissed too if I was as good as him offensively and wiggins still takes more shots while complaining about being a 3rd option. lol.LOL, Wiggins is trash. I'd only trade for him to see if Pop could get something out of him. Probably would just be another Richard Jefferson experience.

Cal827
05-18-2018, 08:58 PM
Wiggins is causing internal strife and is massively overpaid, and we're floating KAT trades? I think they trade Wiggins to some lottery team needing a 1st option.

Espn came out with a report on the Raptors, and one trade they put up as an option would be Derozan for Wiggins straight up... infuriating many Raptor fans everywhere. I mean, I know some people want him cause he's Canadian, but the rational fans know Toronto would get fleeced :laugh2:

With all of the bad PR around Wiggins at the moment, I'm not sure if most lottery teams would want him. I mean, most are in rebuild, and if the speculation of Wiggins being complacent, lack of work ethic, and now possibly negatively affecting locker room morale are true, then he could be possibly be cancer to that locker room. I'd say that a veteran team with guys who can tell him to get in place (whether that's owner or players), would be most interested. Maybe a borderline playoff team or just miss the playoffs team (E.g. Miami, Denver)

aman_13
05-18-2018, 09:31 PM
Espn came out with a report on the Raptors, and one trade they put up as an option would be Derozan for Wiggins straight up... infuriating many Raptor fans everywhere. I mean, I know some people want him cause he's Canadian, but the rational fans know Toronto would get fleeced :laugh2:

With all of the bad PR around Wiggins at the moment, I'm not sure if most lottery teams would want him. I mean, most are in rebuild, and if the speculation of Wiggins being complacent, lack of work ethic, and now possibly negatively affecting locker room morale are true, then he could be possibly be cancer to that locker room. I'd say that a veteran team with guys who can tell him to get in place (whether that's owner or players), would be most interested. Maybe a borderline playoff team or just miss the playoffs team (E.g. Miami, Denver)

If they did that, I'd stop watching.

numba1CHANGsta
05-18-2018, 09:32 PM
If the T-Wolves were smart they should try to trade Wiggins over Towns.

hugepatsfan
05-18-2018, 09:34 PM
KAT isnít worth what itíd take for MIN to move him.

Oakmont_4
05-18-2018, 09:35 PM
rotoworld

I'm not sure i'd do it but a package of Brown and Rozier could entice the t-wolves.

Noooo thank you. All set with that trade

thephoenixson28
05-18-2018, 09:55 PM
Phoenix has enough to get him

mrblisterdundee
05-18-2018, 10:59 PM
Honestly i get it why towns is pissed... Id be pissed too if I was as good as him offensively and wiggins still takes more shots while complaining about being a 3rd option. lol.

The Timberwolves should trade Wiggins to a team that can better manage him, but I don't know what they can expect in return. He's so overpaid. Maybe Canada will take him back.

Cal827
05-18-2018, 11:29 PM
The Timberwolves should trade Wiggins to a team that can better manage him, but I don't know what they can expect in return. He's so overpaid. Maybe Canada will take him back.

Please Jebus No.


For KAT, the Suns should be calling the T'wolves right now. They do have some good assets (as well as picks like the 1st overall in this years draft), to at least get some dialogue going.

kobe4thewinbang
05-18-2018, 11:34 PM
Espn came out with a report on the Raptors, and one trade they put up as an option would be Derozan for Wiggins straight up... infuriating many Raptor fans everywhere. I mean, I know some people want him cause he's Canadian, but the rational fans know Toronto would get fleeced :laugh2:

With all of the bad PR around Wiggins at the moment, I'm not sure if most lottery teams would want him. I mean, most are in rebuild, and if the speculation of Wiggins being complacent, lack of work ethic, and now possibly negatively affecting locker room morale are true, then he could be possibly be cancer to that locker room. I'd say that a veteran team with guys who can tell him to get in place (whether that's owner or players), would be most interested. Maybe a borderline playoff team or just miss the playoffs team (E.g. Miami, Denver): https://media.makeameme.org/created/andrew-wiggins-he.jpg

More-Than-Most
05-19-2018, 01:09 AM
the lakers should seriously call the wolves and give them the choice of 2 of the 3 of kuzma/ingram/ball for towns... Towns gets PG13 to come... Towns/Pg13 and one of kuzma/ball or ingram gets the lakers to the playoffs plus a young core for years to come. The wolves likely still say no but that could really jump start **** for the lakers if they say yes.

Lakers + Giants
05-19-2018, 01:59 AM
the lakers should seriously call the wolves and give them the choice of 2 of the 3 of kuzma/ingram/ball for towns... Towns gets PG13 to come... Towns/Pg13 and one of kuzma/ball or ingram gets the lakers to the playoffs plus a young core for years to come. The wolves likely still say no but that could really jump start **** for the lakers if they say yes.:puke:

More-Than-Most
05-19-2018, 02:09 AM
:puke:

why not? Kuzma/Ball/Ingram might never be better than towns is right now... I am not big on Towns defense but if you add him plus Pg13 and keep one of your guys 3 that is a much better situation than you are in now. The wolves likely say no but why not??

GREATNESS ONE
05-19-2018, 02:10 AM
the lakers should seriously call the wolves and give them the choice of 2 of the 3 of kuzma/ingram/ball for towns... Towns gets PG13 to come... Towns/Pg13 and one of kuzma/ball or ingram gets the lakers to the playoffs plus a young core for years to come. The wolves likely still say no but that could really jump start **** for the lakers if they say yes.
We could stand or and only re-sign Randle and on growth alone we will make the playoffs. Iím not giving up 2/3 but itís not up to me or you or anyone on this site for that matter. But just talking about our opinions, I wouldnít give up 2/3, 1 of them.....

GREATNESS ONE
05-19-2018, 02:11 AM
why not? Kuzma/Ball/Ingram might never be better than towns is right now... I am not big on Towns defense but if you add him plus Pg13 and keep one of your guys 3 that is a much better situation than you are in now. The wolves likely say no but why not??

Lmao youíre not big on Towns but definitely even less big on the baby trio ;)

More-Than-Most
05-19-2018, 02:15 AM
Lmao youíre not big on Towns but definitely even less big on the baby trio ;)

Fun note If I were trading for towns and you know hate much i hate ball and love ingram... Id give up ingram/Kuz and get towns... Lonzo could make PG13 and Towns even better than they are and there is value in that. I think a Towns/Ball/Pg13 lineup is really nice over the next 5 years. I love Ingram but man Ball is the piece towns needs Feed the beast and let PG13 do his thing while Ball dishes it around and gets open looks... of the 3 ball is the one id give away but because its Towns Id offer up the 2 i like more for the fit... ball/Towns/PG13 fits so perfectly its insane.

GREATNESS ONE
05-19-2018, 02:39 AM
I couldnít do it, weíre just speaking about potential 10years at this point these kids are all incredibly young, raw and talented. Who knows what BIís number will look like a few years from now, if he makes the same jump from year 1 to year 2 weíre talking about a 22ppg+ scorer 5assist/5rebound and possible all-star. Iím not a huge fan of Towns but I can see why people would have interest.

It would be hard for me (personally) to give BI/Kuz for Kawhi let alone Towns. Iím not sure what the Lakers FO thinks because so many options heading into the Summer and Iím sure theyíll do their due dillegence. If Towns becomes available in the same Summer, Lebron, PG, Kawhi, etc are available...something crazy might just happen.

Like Lebron/Kawhi joining forces on one of our teams.

Lakers + Giants
05-19-2018, 02:57 AM
why not? Kuzma/Ball/Ingram might never be better than towns is right now... I am not big on Towns defense but if you add him plus Pg13 and keep one of your guys 3 that is a much better situation than you are in now. The wolves likely say no but why not??

Completely agree that none of our guys might never be better than what KAT is right now but I just don't like a big that can't defend. while his offensive impact alone could be better than anything we give back in a trade I just simply prefer not making that deal and hoping for the best for Zo, Kuz or Ingram.

More-Than-Most
05-19-2018, 03:13 AM
Completely agree that none of our guys might never be better than what KAT is right now but I just don't like a big that can't defend. while his offensive impact alone could be better than anything we give back in a trade I just simply prefer not making that deal and hoping for the best for Zo, Kuz or Ingram.

I understand... Someone like towns is so far ahead offensively but its the defense that has always bothered me. I dont buy into ball or simmons defense but someone like Ingram in my opinion will always be defensively legit ... I love ingram and he could be a game changer down the line no doubt but Towns offense and rebounding is elite that all he really has to do is try to defend or get a coach that could teach him to excel on that side of the ball. I was never a towns guy much like a tatum because personally i thought they entered the league extremely polished and should excel out of the gate but have their ceiling capped, I think if you guys have a hard on for pg13 then a guy like towns even if it costs you 2 of your 3 guys makes a ton of sense.

Lakers + Giants
05-19-2018, 03:50 AM
I understand... Someone like towns is so far ahead offensively but its the defense that has always bothered me. I dont buy into ball or simmons defense but someone like Ingram in my opinion will always be defensively legit ... I love ingram and he could be a game changer down the line no doubt but Towns offense and rebounding is elite that all he really has to do is try to defend or get a coach that could teach him to excel on that side of the ball. I was never a towns guy much like a tatum because personally i thought they entered the league extremely polished and should excel out of the gate but have their ceiling capped, I think if you guys have a hard on for pg13 then a guy like towns even if it costs you 2 of your 3 guys makes a ton of sense.

It may very well be worth it. This could be the case of us overvaluing our players. I know a lot of people do that, and I'm probably doing it right now haha. I just wouldn't make that move. I've grown to love Ingrams game. Honestly, if it were Zo and Kuz for Towns I'd do it. But no doubt in my mind that if you offer two of 3 (BI, Kuz, Zo) they're starting with BI first. :(

More-Than-Most
05-19-2018, 04:32 AM
It may very well be worth it. This could be the case of us overvaluing our players. I know a lot of people do that, and I'm probably doing it right now haha. I just wouldn't make that move. I've grown to love Ingrams game. Honestly, if it were Zo and Kuz for Towns I'd do it. But no doubt in my mind that if you offer two of 3 (BI, Kuz, Zo) they're starting with BI first. :(

Id get rid of kuz and zo before Ingram as well... I just think if you get PG13 ingram becomes less valuable where is Zo becomes more valuable... So a zo/PG13/Towns lineup is much much better than a Ingram/Pg13/Towns Lineup. Towns Needs a guy like PG13 but also a guy like a zo... Its why I think the wolves made a mistake trading a rubio... I think a zo/Towns/PG13 lineup is a real good starting point for a playoff squad going forward. It makes me sick arguing for a zo over an ingram TRUST ME lol

MILLERHIGHLIFE
05-19-2018, 07:40 AM
If KAT and Wiggins have a beef and cant be worked out. Just deal Wiggins if you can.

PAOboston
05-19-2018, 08:55 AM
"Danny Ainge on line one..."

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BostonBoy
05-19-2018, 10:35 AM
"Danny Ainge on line one..."

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Rozier and Brown for KAT is probably at the front of peopleís minds, but if Iím Danny, I might look to trade Irving for KAT (along with whatever else is needed to match salaries). If Minny wants more, throw in non-SAC picks to sweeten the deal.

Irving and KAT are both incredible offensive players and even though Minny has Teague, KI is a huge upgrade. Heíd fit nicely next to Butler as well. Would be one of the best backcourts in the league. They could start shopping Teague or Wiggins for a legit big man or maybe a Myles Turner type. Or just go into the season with Irving, Butler, Wiggins, Gibson, Dieng. Thatís a pretty good team still...

Short of getting Kawhi Leonard, Iím not sure Minny can get a better player than Kyrie. It also might be more enticing than a high draft pick because they donít want to waste Butlerís prime (unless they plan on blowing it up).

On the Celtics side of things, you have your core once Hayward/Horford expire in Brown/Tatum/KAT and youíre still one of the best teams in the league with a lineup of Rozier, Brown, Tatum, Horford, KAT or Rozier, Brown, Hayward, Tatum, KAT. Take your pick who you want to come off the bench.

warfelg
05-19-2018, 11:58 AM
Iím gonna give a darkhorse team that should be in on him:

Utah Jazz.

D-Leethal
05-19-2018, 12:07 PM
Something tells me Minny would not be interested in trading him for a pick. Thibs is as win-now as they come. They would want to trade him for very good depth (Boston) or a legitimate veteran star (SA-Kawhi).

tp13baby
05-19-2018, 12:14 PM
Espn came out with a report on the Raptors, and one trade they put up as an option would be Derozan for Wiggins straight up... infuriating many Raptor fans everywhere. I mean, I know some people want him cause he's Canadian, but the rational fans know Toronto would get fleeced :laugh2:

With all of the bad PR around Wiggins at the moment, I'm not sure if most lottery teams would want him. I mean, most are in rebuild, and if the speculation of Wiggins being complacent, lack of work ethic, and now possibly negatively affecting locker room morale are true, then he could be possibly be cancer to that locker room. I'd say that a veteran team with guys who can tell him to get in place (whether that's owner or players), would be most interested. Maybe a borderline playoff team or just miss the playoffs team (E.g. Miami, Denver)

I donít see Wiggins in Denver. Hard to trade inside the division and Minnesota would have to be willing to take back some contracts like Faried/Chandler/Arthur and a protected pick.

WaDe03
05-19-2018, 02:12 PM
997648229511577600

I believe these rumors are true, Booker and Towns are best friends. Now it comes out that the Suns are open to trading the first pick. 1st pick and Chriss for Towns, Wolves look to move 1st pick and Chriss somewhere else for an all star and solid role players. Or just trade KAT for a different all star.

WaDe03
05-19-2018, 02:19 PM
Get rid of Wiggins too, heís gsrbage. Will be pretty hard to do though with that contract imo.

flea
05-19-2018, 02:53 PM
Time to tank again for the Wolves, you had your one decent season to last Hawkeye's lifetime.

More-Than-Most
05-19-2018, 03:33 PM
Id offer up bookers overrated *** for towns before id give up a package around that number 1 pick. It would take alot more than the number 1 and criss to get towns.. **** that.

JAZZNC
05-19-2018, 03:42 PM
Iím gonna give a darkhorse team that should be in on him:

Utah Jazz.
But what could we possibly give the Wolves in return? If we could keep Gobert and Mitchell that would be a nice team but no way they don't want one of those 2 guys.

Chronz
05-19-2018, 04:22 PM
Time to tank again for the Wolves, you had your one decent season to last Hawkeye's lifetime.

Poor poor hawk

WaDe03
05-19-2018, 04:47 PM
Id offer up bookers overrated *** for towns before id give up a package around that number 1 pick. It would take alot more than the number 1 and criss to get towns.. **** that.

In a 3 team deal the pick can get them an all star and good role players.

warfelg
05-19-2018, 05:27 PM
But what could we possibly give the Wolves in return? If we could keep Gobert and Mitchell that would be a nice team but no way they don't want one of those 2 guys.

I have no clue. But if you could keep both and get Towns, you got 3 guys that can give the Warriors fits. Especially since Towns and Gobert fit amazingly well together. Maybe Ingles, Exum, Crowder, and a pick?

More-Than-Most
05-19-2018, 06:06 PM
I have no clue. But if you could keep both and get Towns, you got 3 guys that can give the Warriors fits. Especially since Towns and Gobert fit amazingly well together. Maybe Ingles, Exum, Crowder, and a pick?

it woould never work... honestly there is just to many teams that could flat out blow that package away. It would have to be Gobert plus more and that wouldnt be smart.

IndyRealist
05-19-2018, 06:35 PM
Completely agree that none of our guys might never be better than what KAT is right now but I just don't like a big that can't defend. while his offensive impact alone could be better than anything we give back in a trade I just simply prefer not making that deal and hoping for the best for Zo, Kuz or Ingram.
^ This is not overvaluing your own players.

I couldnít do it, weíre just speaking about potential 10years at this point these kids are all incredibly young, raw and talented. Who knows what BIís number will look like a few years from now, if he makes the same jump from year 1 to year 2 weíre talking about a 22ppg+ scorer 5assist/5rebound and possible all-star. Iím not a huge fan of Towns but I can see why people would have interest.

It would be hard for me (personally) to give BI/Kuz for Kawhi let alone Towns. Iím not sure what the Lakers FO thinks because so many options heading into the Summer and Iím sure theyíll do their due dillegence. If Towns becomes available in the same Summer, Lebron, PG, Kawhi, etc are available...something crazy might just happen.

Like Lebron/Kawhi joining forces on one of our teams.

^This is overvaluing your own players.

missionh1llpart
05-19-2018, 07:09 PM
rotoworld

I'm not sure i'd do it but a package of Brown and Rozier could entice the t-wolves.

Celtics fan and I'd do that trade in a minute. We sold high on IT as he entered a contract year and it worked out great for us. Rozier is entering a contract year next season and we should do the same thing with him. Dealing Brown makes sense for a guy like KAT only if we re-sign Smart. We could move Tatum to starting SG (like he was at the end of the regular season after all the injuries and I think he makes more sense there than as a starting PF anyway) and Celtics have a starting 5 of

C- Towns
PF- Horford
SF- Hayward
SG- Tatum
PG- Kyrie

and a solid bench of guys like Smart, Morris, Theis and whoever else they can get in the offseason. Maybe see if Semi O can develop more next season too.

I think it's a good deal.

Quinnsanity
05-19-2018, 11:05 PM
KAT is thinking about his future as much as his poor partnership with Wiggins the present. He has played all 82 games all three seasons of his career. He plays a buttload of minutes for a center. He's going to get hurt. Thibodeau is dangerous for these players, and I think Jimmy Butler is going to leave because of him as well.

Quinnsanity
05-19-2018, 11:07 PM
And for the record, no goddamn way the Wolves take anything less than Tatum if they deal with Boston. This Brown/Rozier love is nonsense. They're good players. They're good starters. Towns was voted the player GMs most wanted to build around. He's a top five young asset in the NBA. Celtics fans are getting ridiculous. If you want Towns, it starts with Tatum. The same goes for Davis. You've swindled enough teams.

BostonBoy
05-19-2018, 11:22 PM
And for the record, no goddamn way the Wolves take anything less than Tatum if they deal with Boston. This Brown/Rozier love is nonsense. They're good players. They're good starters. Towns was voted the player GMs most wanted to build around. He's a top five young asset in the NBA. Celtics fans are getting ridiculous. If you want Towns, it starts with Tatum. The same goes for Davis. You've swindled enough teams.

Brown and Tatum are close to the same tier prospect-wise. There are people in Massachusetts that would give up Tatum before Brown in packages. I think youíre way off base here.

Chronz
05-19-2018, 11:36 PM
Brown and Tatum are close to the same tier prospect-wise. There are people in Massachusetts that would give up Tatum before Brown in packages. I think youíre way off base here.
The contract alone makes one more valuable

GREATNESS ONE
05-20-2018, 12:04 AM
It may very well be worth it. This could be the case of us overvaluing our players. I know a lot of people do that, and I'm probably doing it right now haha. I just wouldn't make that move. I've grown to love Ingrams game. Honestly, if it were Zo and Kuz for Towns I'd do it. But no doubt in my mind that if you offer two of 3 (BI, Kuz, Zo) they're starting with BI first. :(

Get out!!!!! ďZo & KuzĒ!!!! Lmao GET OUT!

GREATNESS ONE
05-20-2018, 12:05 AM
^ This is not overvaluing your own players.


^This is overvaluing your own players.

Well to be fair, I watch every single Lakers game. LG doesnít ;)

GREATNESS ONE
05-20-2018, 12:06 AM
Well to be fair, I watch every single Lakers game. LG doesnít ;)

Oh but yes Indy, here comes the ďit doesnít matter if you watch every gameĒ comment. Tell me how much you know more about the Lakers than me again because youíre a genius and Iím just trying to keep up with your brilliance.

More-Than-Most
05-20-2018, 12:45 AM
Get out!!!!! ďZo & KuzĒ!!!! Lmao GET OUT!

The 5 trade thing has it starting with both ball and ingram. The lakers would have to offer 2 of their 3 nomatter what... Of course they wouldnt and i wouldnt either because Towns isnt an AD but towns is a rebounding/offensive talent on a great contract who is young as hell and again like the other poster said the majority of GMs slob over this dude.

More-Than-Most
05-20-2018, 12:47 AM
what the wolves will want very few teams will pay... So yes as much as it would be Ball and Ingram it would likely be brown and tatum as well or Fultz and saric and picks... You will have to give up a kings ransom for this dude period.

More-Than-Most
05-20-2018, 01:25 AM
I dont like his defense but you dudes are overrating the **** out of your talent and underrating towns... 21/13 on 55 pct shooting with 14 FGA per game. That is with 2 other guys demanding the ball... He is insanely efficient and could get better defensively... If you want towns it starts with Tatum and Brown or Ball and Ingram or Fultz and saric and our 10th pick... That is why a team like Utah has no shot of getting him because unless they are parting Dmitch its an easy no. If you dont want to give up both tatum and Brown you better come hard with 1 of them and a surplus of picks.


As for if they should do it... Hell no the lakers shouldnt... With a towns and maybe a PG13 they still arent getting out of the west or even taking the warriors/rockets to 6 games... Let the kids grow and hit up free agency... Celtics though... They are damn close to a championship and adding a towns and shipping out a tatum and brown and have a team of Kyrie/Horford/Towns and the dude that ****ed up his foot is legit... Though the celtics would be better off just giving them kyrie and a ton of picks in all honesty.

GREATNESS ONE
05-20-2018, 01:28 AM
The 5 trade thing has it starting with both ball and ingram. The lakers would have to offer 2 of their 3 nomatter what... Of course they wouldnt and i wouldnt either because Towns isnt an AD but towns is a rebounding/offensive talent on a great contract who is young as hell and again like the other poster said the majority of GMs slob over this dude.

Iím Not disagreeing with it as I donít run business decisions for the Los Angeles Lakers. I can see offering two but as well can see them not but we CAN put together a VERY competitive package.

More-Than-Most
05-20-2018, 01:36 AM
Iím Not disagreeing with it as I donít run business decisions for the Los Angeles Lakers. I can see offering two but as well can see them not but we CAN put together a VERY competitive package.

i wouldnt even offer 1... what is the point right now? If you are going to give up 2 go for a KL but even then there is no point in trading guys where the lakers currently are... Go for free agency and see how that goes and if need be you mess around via the trades after next season. I am not a ball fan but trading him and 1 of ingram or kuzma is ****ing idiotic.

GREATNESS ONE
05-20-2018, 01:40 AM
i wouldnt even offer 1... what is the point right now? If you are going to give up 2 go for a KL but even then there is no point in trading guys where the lakers currently are... Go for free agency and see how that goes and if need be you mess around via the trades after next season. I am not a ball fan but trading him and 1 of ingram or kuzma is ****ing idiotic.

:nod:

Lakers + Giants
05-20-2018, 02:25 AM
Well to be fair, I watch every single Lakers game. LG doesnít ;)

..... I know it was a joke but cmon now..

Like I said before tho, watching more and actually knowing more are two different things.

FlashBolt
05-20-2018, 03:55 AM
I'll trade Russ for him. Please.

BostonBoy
05-20-2018, 07:31 AM
I dont like his defense but you dudes are overrating the **** out of your talent and underrating towns... 21/13 on 55 pct shooting with 14 FGA per game. That is with 2 other guys demanding the ball... He is insanely efficient and could get better defensively... If you want towns it starts with Tatum and Brown or Ball and Ingram or Fultz and saric and our 10th pick... That is why a team like Utah has no shot of getting him because unless they are parting Dmitch its an easy no. If you dont want to give up both tatum and Brown you better come hard with 1 of them and a surplus of picks.


As for if they should do it... Hell no the lakers shouldnt... With a towns and maybe a PG13 they still arent getting out of the west or even taking the warriors/rockets to 6 games... Let the kids grow and hit up free agency... Celtics though... They are damn close to a championship and adding a towns and shipping out a tatum and brown and have a team of Kyrie/Horford/Towns and the dude that ****ed up his foot is legit... Though the celtics would be better off just giving them kyrie and a ton of picks in all honesty.

People said the same thing about Paul Georgeís value. Bottom line is that we have no idea what Minny is willing to accept. Did you think Oladipo and Sabomis was a fair trade at the time for PG13? No one did. It doesnít necessarily start with Ball/Ingram or Tatum/Brown and if it does and Iím the Celtics, hell no to that.

warfelg
05-20-2018, 07:47 AM
People said the same thing about Paul Georgeís value. Bottom line is that we have no idea what Minny is willing to accept. Did you think Oladipo and Sabomis was a fair trade at the time for PG13? No one did. It doesnít necessarily start with Ball/Ingram or Tatum/Brown and if it does and Iím the Celtics, hell no to that.

There's a huge difference between a rookie wage upcoming RFA as opposed to a Max contract player about to be an URFA.

More-Than-Most
05-20-2018, 07:56 AM
People said the same thing about Paul Georgeís value. Bottom line is that we have no idea what Minny is willing to accept. Did you think Oladipo and Sabomis was a fair trade at the time for PG13? No one did. It doesnít necessarily start with Ball/Ingram or Tatum/Brown and if it does and Iím the Celtics, hell no to that.

PG13 has always been overrated and never as good as Towns the past 2 years... On top of this PG13 was about to be a free agent who had 0 chance of coming back to the pacers and basically made that known where is towns has no choice but to be a wolve and is under a rookie deal. Again you start with Tatum AND Brown or you just keep towns.... This is what I mean about how underrated Towns has become and how overrated pieces on certain teams have become.

hugepatsfan
05-20-2018, 08:14 AM
I dont like his defense but you dudes are overrating the **** out of your talent and underrating towns... 21/13 on 55 pct shooting with 14 FGA per game. That is with 2 other guys demanding the ball... He is insanely efficient and could get better defensively... If you want towns it starts with Tatum and Brown or Ball and Ingram or Fultz and saric and our 10th pick... That is why a team like Utah has no shot of getting him because unless they are parting Dmitch its an easy no. If you dont want to give up both tatum and Brown you better come hard with 1 of them and a surplus of picks.


As for if they should do it... Hell no the lakers shouldnt... With a towns and maybe a PG13 they still arent getting out of the west or even taking the warriors/rockets to 6 games... Let the kids grow and hit up free agency... Celtics though... They are damn close to a championship and adding a towns and shipping out a tatum and brown and have a team of Kyrie/Horford/Towns and the dude that ****ed up his foot is legit... Though the celtics would be better off just giving them kyrie and a ton of picks in all honesty.

Yuck at Brown and Tatum for Towns. People have this archaic fascination of getting scoring from their big man and Are always willing to pay a stupid premium for it. The game is built on being able to defend in space. Guys who can do that and score regardless of position are the building blocks. And on the perimeter you can hide guys to an extent but not your 5. Thereís no hiding lack of defensive skill there.

I wouldnít give up any of Hayward / Horford / Kyrie / Tatum / Brown for KAT. They will all contribute to winning more than he will. If Ingram continues the developmental track heís on and Fultz is the player he was projected to be at draft time then LAL/PHI shouldnít do your deals either.

Forever35
05-20-2018, 08:37 AM
I'm on the fence with KAT... A JB for KAT trade straight up IMO would be fair for both sides... A #1 pick and #3 pick living up to their draft position... I think in the long run, a Tatum/Towns pairing is better than a Tatum/Brown pairing...

IndyRealist
05-20-2018, 09:04 AM
..... I know it was a joke but cmon now..

Like I said before tho, watching more and actually knowing more are two different things.

Shh....let him have it. It's all he's got.

GREATNESS ONE
05-20-2018, 09:53 AM
..... I know it was a joke but cmon now..

Like I said before tho, watching more and actually knowing more are two different things.

Lmao ok Indy.

Heediot
05-20-2018, 10:19 AM
Another article stirring the pot. Wolves got rid of the Development guy who worked with Towns, so that's probably the internal conflict lmao. What say you TWolves fans? Is the rift real of fluff (as I am suspecting)?

KingstonHawke
05-20-2018, 12:03 PM
Phoenix has enough to get him

Suns would make the most sense if they really felt like they needed to trade him. Could possibly even get it done without including Booker.

Josh Jackson, Marquese Chriss, and Deandre Ayton. For KAT and Cole Aldrich? They'd have a very hard time finding an offer better than that one.

Leftcoast_yg
05-20-2018, 12:23 PM
:puke:
+1

mngopher35
05-20-2018, 12:25 PM
Another article stirring the pot. Wolves got rid of the Development guy who worked with Towns, so that's probably the internal conflict lmao. What say you TWolves fans? Is the rift real of fluff (as I am suspecting)?

Probably some fluff but with some hints of truth. I'd be pretty annoyed having thibs in charge too.

I think before moving towns we should fire thibs. Priority #1 for improving the franchise. If new comes in and it's an actual problem then evaluate but do not let thibs be the problem or make any mistakes for our future etc.

Most of the packages listed in here would be pretty easy "no" without hesitation. If towns really wants out to the level of taking the qo instead of high max let's see it.

mngopher35
05-20-2018, 12:27 PM
Also obviously wouldn't mind moving Wiggins compared to towns either

thephoenixson28
05-20-2018, 02:01 PM
Suns would make the most sense if they really felt like they needed to trade him. Could possibly even get it done without including Booker.

Josh Jackson, Marquese Chriss, and Deandre Ayton. For KAT and Cole Aldrich? They'd have a very hard time finding an offer better than that one. That would be too much. I was thinking somewhere like TJ Warren,Chriss, The number 16# pick and our next years 1st

BKLYNpigeon
05-20-2018, 02:47 PM
One bad playoff series and everyones down on KAT. lol

Give him the right system and teammates, KAT can be a top 10ish player in the league.

warfelg
05-20-2018, 03:07 PM
Would a deal for Clint Capella for KAT deal work? I think itís a great base to work around. (If both sides were inclined)

Chronz
05-20-2018, 03:09 PM
Also obviously wouldn't mind moving Wiggins compared to towns either

Is it one or the other? Must know for my franchise

mngopher35
05-20-2018, 03:20 PM
Also obviously wouldn't mind moving Wiggins compared to towns either

Is it one or the other? Must know for my franchise

I mean it shouldn't be but I dunno how they get along etc. I am just getting at Wiggins is considered expendable to most while Kat is the future type thing. I am fine with using Wiggins in a trade even without any issues off court type thing (just not sure he still has that same hype/value so might not get legit offers).

I have been harping on thibs as a problem since the first 10 games until now (like when we had Rubio, not just this season). I think he is the key issue and don't trust him not to give towns away for one of these bad packages mentioned in here tbh. If they can just get joakim Noah he will likely bite

More-Than-Most
05-20-2018, 06:24 PM
One bad playoff series and everyones down on KAT. lol

Give him the right system and teammates, KAT can be a top 10ish player in the league.

Its not the playoff series though... Its his defense but his offense/age/rebounding/rookie contract should just everyone up right now and people are hardcore overrating their own prospects while devaluing what it would take to get a Kat... Some teams shouldnt do it for the price it would cost but others should... It all depends on the situation but the asking price should be the moon.

More-Than-Most
05-20-2018, 06:29 PM
Yuck at Brown and Tatum for Towns. People have this archaic fascination of getting scoring from their big man and Are always willing to pay a stupid premium for it. The game is built on being able to defend in space. Guys who can do that and score regardless of position are the building blocks. And on the perimeter you can hide guys to an extent but not your 5. Thereís no hiding lack of defensive skill there.

I wouldnít give up any of Hayward / Horford / Kyrie / Tatum / Brown for KAT. They will all contribute to winning more than he will. If Ingram continues the developmental track heís on and Fultz is the player he was projected to be at draft time then LAL/PHI shouldnít do your deals either.

I dont disagree with any of this. I am not a towns fan because lets be honest his defense is putrid and embiid got **** for calling him out on it... His age/contract/offensive ability and rebounding makes him worth a boat load. I wouldnt do deals for him if I am philly/Boston or the lakers. I just think if its not tatum and brown or fultz and saric and picks or Ingram and ball then the wolves just keep him... Youd have to blow them away and right now in this day and age over the past 5 years teams have started really over valuing their teams prospects and the trend is continuing with the fans. I am fairly certain the majority of philly fans would refuse a fultz and saric deal for towns by themselves without picks... I love fultz and saric but towns is putting up an insanely efficient 24/12 with ease.

Alayla
05-20-2018, 08:04 PM
I dont disagree with any of this. I am not a towns fan because lets be honest his defense is putrid and embiid got **** for calling him out on it... His age/contract/offensive ability and rebounding makes him worth a boat load. I wouldnt do deals for him if I am philly/Boston or the lakers. I just think if its not tatum and brown or fultz and saric and picks or Ingram and ball then the wolves just keep him... Youd have to blow them away and right now in this day and age over the past 5 years teams have started really over valuing their teams prospects and the trend is continuing with the fans. I am fairly certain the majority of philly fans would refuse a fultz and saric deal for towns by themselves without picks... I love fultz and saric but towns is putting up an insanely efficient 24/12 with ease.

See in a vacuum i'd do fultz and saric for kat but then what happens with embiid? Do you have kat play the 4?

BostonBoy
05-21-2018, 12:04 AM
PG13 has always been overrated and never as good as Towns the past 2 years... On top of this PG13 was about to be a free agent who had 0 chance of coming back to the pacers and basically made that known where is towns has no choice but to be a wolve and is under a rookie deal. Again you start with Tatum AND Brown or you just keep towns.... This is what I mean about how underrated Towns has become and how overrated pieces on certain teams have become.

No thanks then. Iíd hang up the phone if Iím ainge, thatís far too much for a guy that isnít a top 10 player.

BostonBoy
05-21-2018, 12:08 AM
I dont disagree with any of this. I am not a towns fan because lets be honest his defense is putrid and embiid got **** for calling him out on it... His age/contract/offensive ability and rebounding makes him worth a boat load. I wouldnt do deals for him if I am philly/Boston or the lakers. I just think if its not tatum and brown or fultz and saric and picks or Ingram and ball then the wolves just keep him... Youd have to blow them away and right now in this day and age over the past 5 years teams have started really over valuing their teams prospects and the trend is continuing with the fans. I am fairly certain the majority of philly fans would refuse a fultz and saric deal for towns by themselves without picks... I love fultz and saric but towns is putting up an insanely efficient 24/12 with ease.

Fultz and Saric isnít anywhere close to getting it done. Youíre talking damaged goods in Fultz (until he proves otherwise) and Saric who is a role player on a good team. If thatís all it took and Iím Philly, Iíd do that in a heartbeat.

In reality, they likely ask for Simmons.

Vinylman
05-21-2018, 07:33 AM
997648229511577600

I believe these rumors are true, Booker and Towns are best friends. Now it comes out that the Suns are open to trading the first pick. 1st pick and Chriss for Towns, Wolves look to move 1st pick and Chriss somewhere else for an all star and solid role players. Or just trade KAT for a different all star.

LOL

I see Phoenix having to do the following to get him

Phoenix out

Chandler
2018 #1
2019 #1 (top 3 protected)

Phoenix in

Dieng

KAT

Vinylman
05-21-2018, 07:37 AM
People said the same thing about Paul Georgeís value. Bottom line is that we have no idea what Minny is willing to accept. Did you think Oladipo and Sabomis was a fair trade at the time for PG13? No one did. It doesnít necessarily start with Ball/Ingram or Tatum/Brown and if it does and Iím the Celtics, hell no to that.

PG13 had one year left on his deal Ö KAT has 5

not even close to comparable

TheDish87
05-21-2018, 11:43 AM
I dont like his defense but you dudes are overrating the **** out of your talent and underrating towns... 21/13 on 55 pct shooting with 14 FGA per game. That is with 2 other guys demanding the ball... He is insanely efficient and could get better defensively... If you want towns it starts with Tatum and Brown or Ball and Ingram or Fultz and saric and our 10th pick... That is why a team like Utah has no shot of getting him because unless they are parting Dmitch its an easy no. If you dont want to give up both tatum and Brown you better come hard with 1 of them and a surplus of picks.


As for if they should do it... Hell no the lakers shouldnt... With a towns and maybe a PG13 they still arent getting out of the west or even taking the warriors/rockets to 6 games... Let the kids grow and hit up free agency... Celtics though... They are damn close to a championship and adding a towns and shipping out a tatum and brown and have a team of Kyrie/Horford/Towns and the dude that ****ed up his foot is legit... Though the celtics would be better off just giving them kyrie and a ton of picks in all honesty.

youre on some **** wiht this one. Towns doesnt have the type of value, not even close.

IKnowHoops
05-21-2018, 12:09 PM
rotoworld

I'm not sure i'd do it but a package of Brown and Rozier could entice the t-wolves.

No it wouldnít

BostonBoy
05-21-2018, 12:41 PM
PG13 had one year left on his deal Ö KAT has 5

not even close to comparable

Iíd love to know where youíre getting that from. He has nowhere near 5 years on his contract.

https://hoopshype.com/player/karl-anthony-towns/salary/

If you want a different comp, go look at the Jimmy Butler deal then. Dunn/Lavine arenít the players that Brown and Tatum are. An appropriate comp MIGHT be Rozier + Brown, though Rozier and Brown have proven a lot more in their careers than Dunn + Lavine at the time.

Vinylman
05-21-2018, 12:42 PM
Iíd love to know where youíre getting that from. He has nowhere near 5 years on his contract.

https://hoopshype.com/player/karl-anthony-towns/salary/

If you want a different comp, go look at the Jimmy Butler deal then. Dunn/Lavine arenít the players that Brown and Tatum are...

he is signing an extension this summer so he will be under control for 6 years... you think he is going to pass up his first big contract?

Anyway the situations AREN'T the same

BostonBoy
05-21-2018, 01:03 PM
he is signing an extension this summer so he will be under control for 6 years... you think he is going to pass up his first big contract?

Anyway the situations AREN'T the same

Why would he sign in Minny if heís unhappy and can get max dollars as a UFA? Youíre all over the place. You said he had 5 years left on his contract and now youíre backtracking and saying why would he pass up his first big contract...

No situation is the same as Towns because normally guys that talented donít move teams. I would argue that the closest thing we have recently is Jimmy Butler and even then, Tatum + Brown have done a lot more than Dunn + Lavine had done at the time (Tatum > Dunn, Brown > Lavine). Butler was also a different contract-wise than KAT. Maybe Demarcus Cousins? Itís extremely difficult to come up with a comp.

My whole argument is that Tatum + Brown for KAT is stupid and the 76ers fans that think Fultz + Saric gets it done are also crazy.

mngopher35
05-21-2018, 01:09 PM
^hes a rfa coming off a rookie contract so we can match any offer. He has to take the one year qo at a major discount basically or else his long term contract will be here/we get value we want.

Players don't take that qo almost ever (not sure a clear max guy ever has). I think that's what he is getting at

mngopher35
05-21-2018, 01:10 PM
We also gave up our pick/markennen in the deal for butler

Baldyy
05-21-2018, 01:15 PM
Iíd love to know where youíre getting that from. He has nowhere near 5 years on his contract.

https://hoopshype.com/player/karl-anthony-towns/salary/

If you want a different comp, go look at the Jimmy Butler deal then. Dunn/Lavine arenít the players that Brown and Tatum are. An appropriate comp MIGHT be Rozier + Brown, though Rozier and Brown have proven a lot more in their careers than Dunn + Lavine at the time.

KAT's trade value is much higher than Jimmy's.

He's only 1 year older than Brown and 2 years older than Tatum, but has accomplished much more in terms of individual feats. If he was in Boston in that situation and team, we're probably putting him in top 5-7 players in the league talk.

He also is locked up until at least 2020, as he will be a restricted free agent after next year.

I doubt Boston would give Tatum and Brown for Towns, but I would ask for no less.

WestCoastSportz
05-21-2018, 02:23 PM
This team is typical of a bunch of egos colliding. People complaining that they're the 3rd or 4th option on a team. Who cares? If they can put their egos aside, they can be a better team. You don't hear guys like Klay Thompson complaining about being the 3rd option because he's winning championships and still getting his. The Wolves seem like a bunch of guys that are more worried about themselves than the team.

TrueFan420
05-21-2018, 02:37 PM
This team is typical of a bunch of egos colliding. People complaining that they're the 3rd or 4th option on a team. Who cares? If they can put their egos aside, they can be a better team. You don't hear guys like Klay Thompson complaining about being the 3rd option because he's winning championships and still getting his. The Wolves seem like a bunch of guys that are more worried about themselves than the team.
Part of the prob is Thibs as well

Vinylman
05-21-2018, 02:52 PM
^hes a rfa coming off a rookie contract so we can match any offer. He has to take the one year qo at a major discount basically or else his long term contract will be here/we get value we want.

Players don't take that qo almost ever (not sure a clear max guy ever has). I think that's what he is getting at

exactly... I thought he had already signed the extension which was my bad Ö but anyone thinking a guy on a rookie deal isn't gonna sign his extension as soon as he can is nuts.

Also, he can commit to sign the extension with the team he is being traded to so Minnie gets full value (see harden in Houston)

BostonBoy
05-21-2018, 03:40 PM
KAT's trade value is much higher than Jimmy's.

He's only 1 year older than Brown and 2 years older than Tatum, but has accomplished much more in terms of individual feats. If he was in Boston in that situation and team, we're probably putting him in top 5-7 players in the league talk.

He also is locked up until at least 2020, as he will be a restricted free agent after next year.

I doubt Boston would give Tatum and Brown for Towns, but I would ask for no less.

The whole reason I brought it up is because I think Brown + Tatum for KAT is stupid in my eyes. Of course Minny would ask for that, they would be foolish not to ask for both. Some people were posting Fultz + Saric for KAT earlier which I thought was far too little.

Ishkabibble
05-21-2018, 05:52 PM
the lakers should seriously call the wolves and give them the choice of 2 of the 3 of kuzma/ingram/ball for towns... Towns gets PG13 to come... Towns/Pg13 and one of kuzma/ball or ingram gets the lakers to the playoffs plus a young core for years to come. The wolves likely still say no but that could really jump start **** for the lakers if they say yes.

Well, since the T-Wolves took a swipe at the Lakers on Twitter this past weekend and...uh yeah...the two franchises DO kinda have a history, I'd be surprised if the Wolves were willing to deal him to the Lakers at all, under any circumstances.
Not unlike the way Pop feels about LA and how no one believes SA will trade Leonard to LAL for similar reasons.
Lakers need some friends.
They should trade for old friend D'Angelo in Brooklyn.

Scoots
05-21-2018, 07:07 PM
I don't watch many Wolves games, generally I find Thibs teams kind of hard to watch. But the games I've seen it seems KAT has regressed significantly on defense (except a few games mid-season this year that I saw), and seems often uninterested on offense.

From my small data sample it seems Thibs is not working for him at all.

Ahriman
05-22-2018, 04:53 AM
Thibs will prolly trade him for Noah to bring back the almighty Bulls team
God what a **** job he's done in Minny...

KingstonHawke
05-22-2018, 06:59 AM
That would be too much. I was thinking somewhere like TJ Warren,Chriss, The number 16# pick and our next years 1st

0% chance that would get it done. KAT is a very unique commodity in high demand still on his rookie deal with no health issues. He may be most valuable trade asset in the league right now all things considered.


^hes a rfa coming off a rookie contract so we can match any offer. He has to take the one year qo at a major discount basically or else his long term contract will be here/we get value we want.

Players don't take that qo almost ever (not sure a clear max guy ever has). I think that's what he is getting at

Yeah, people aren't really seeming to understand what a value KAT is given his contract status, age, health, and play style. There isn't a team in the league that doesn't want someone with his blend of ability. There aren't many faceup fours that also play defense and rebound. So to have one who is also a legit center with back to the basket game. If the Suns have a chance to pair him with Booker they better not be stingy about making a deal.

More-Than-Most
05-22-2018, 08:35 AM
The whole reason I brought it up is because I think Brown + Tatum for KAT is stupid in my eyes. Of course Minny would ask for that, they would be foolish not to ask for both. Some people were posting Fultz + Saric for KAT earlier which I thought was far too little.

You really underrated saric is why. His game is sweet and he isnt just a role player... Right now Fultz hurts any trade because of his shot issues so tatum is the prize of the 4 if we are comparing them... Brown has come along nicely but Id rather have saric and his upside over brown.

homie564
05-22-2018, 08:43 AM
You really underrated saric is why. His game is sweet and he isnt just a role player... Right now Fultz hurts any trade because of his shot issues so tatum is the prize of the 4 if we are comparing them... Brown has come along nicely but Id rather have saric and his upside over brown.

I think thatís very very close. Iím actually a big fan of Saric, but Brownís offensive game is really coming around. Heís electric and incredibly athletic. And thatís not factoring his defense which I think is going to be among the best at his position. I originally thought Brown would be a Jimmy Butler clone, but after this year I actually think heís going to be better (Iím not sure heís that much worse right now tbh....). Bias might play in but I donít think Iíd trade Brown for Saric straight up


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Ishkabibble
05-22-2018, 09:39 AM
I think thatís very very close. Iím actually a big fan of Saric, but Brownís offensive game is really coming around. Heís electric and incredibly athletic. And thatís not factoring his defense which I think is going to be among the best at his position. I originally thought Brown would be a Jimmy Butler clone, but after this year I actually think heís going to be better (Iím not sure heís that much worse right now tbh....). Bias might play in but I donít think Iíd trade Brown for Saric straight up


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I like Saric. He's only in his second year, versatile, can shoot. I do think it's close but I'd prefer Brown. Still has work to do (such as finishing at the rim, like Tatum) but Brown made HUGE strides offensively this season. And he takes pride in his defense and really works at it. Until further notice, Fultz has zero trade value. I wouldn't touch him.

BKLYNpigeon
05-22-2018, 10:52 AM
Wolves are not trading KAT. this thread is pointless.

Vinylman
05-23-2018, 11:43 AM
in two year Saric and brown won't even be close... they are pretty close right now with Saric being a better rebounder and brown a vastly better defender

Don't forget Saric is almost 3 years older

TheDish87
05-23-2018, 12:10 PM
they both made big leaps from year 1 to year 2 but Saric had more to overcome in transitioning to NBA athletes, 3pt line, speed of the game, etc. Both are going to be good.

Vinylman
05-23-2018, 12:24 PM
they both made big leaps from year 1 to year 2 but Saric had more to overcome in transitioning to NBA athletes, 3pt line, speed of the game, etc. Both are going to be good.

no doubt Ö but I will always take the guy who can defend the 2 or 3

TheDish87
05-23-2018, 01:26 PM
eh Saric covers 3-5 (no idea how effectively stats wise) but Brown definitely has more upside as the perimeter defender. Two completely different players. I didnt realize Brown is so poor from the foul line though despite having really good shooting numbers everywhere else, seems odd.

IKnowHoops
05-23-2018, 02:19 PM
KAT's trade value is much higher than Jimmy's.

He's only 1 year older than Brown and 2 years older than Tatum, but has accomplished much more in terms of individual feats. If he was in Boston in that situation and team, we're probably putting him in top 5-7 players in the league talk.

He also is locked up until at least 2020, as he will be a restricted free agent after next year.

I doubt Boston would give Tatum and Brown for Towns, but I would ask for no less.

As a t wolves fan, I would not trade towns for Tatum and Brown. Neither is close at present or ceiling.

Tg11
05-23-2018, 06:27 PM
Trade KAT to the Cavs to pair up with LeBron but who would the Cavs give up to make that happen? Nah but seriously I see the T Wolves locking up KAT on a max deal

Get rid of Wiggins; trade Wiggins to any team in the East where he can be a #1 option so to a team like the Magic, Hawks, Hornets, Nets or to the Pistons

beasted86
05-23-2018, 06:42 PM
Wolves are not trading KAT. this thread is pointless.

This.

Wiggins and Thibs go before anyone else.

ellington19
05-23-2018, 08:20 PM
That would be too much. I was thinking somewhere like TJ Warren,Chriss, The number 16# pick and our next years 1st

You're not getting Towns for role players and mid-round picks.

Pick 1 would need to be included, otherwise they (Phoenix) would simply be outbid.

hugepatsfan
05-23-2018, 08:31 PM
I just donít see Towns fitting on an elite team. Heís an amazing scorer but heís a weak link defensively at a pivotal spot and not a shot creator for others. Doesnít seem fit to be one of the top 2 or 3 players on a championship team.

Obviously one of the better players in the game but I donít see how he translates to a winning team at the salary/resource level it would take to get/keep him.

BostonBoy
05-23-2018, 11:26 PM
I just donít see Towns fitting on an elite team. Heís an amazing scorer but heís a weak link defensively at a pivotal spot and not a shot creator for others. Doesnít seem fit to be one of the top 2 or 3 players on a championship team.

Obviously one of the better players in the game but I donít see how he translates to a winning team at the salary/resource level it would take to get/keep him.

With the right coach in the right system, I could see him drastically improving defensively. He needs to put in the effort though.

CityofTreez
05-23-2018, 11:41 PM
Thibs will prolly trade him for Noah to bring back the almighty Bulls team
God what a **** job he's done in Minny...

**** job? He may be dumb, but havenít Wolves improved year after year since his arrival? Butler injury ruined Wolves last year, and Towns is a **** defender, and Wiggins is ****. Itís hard to just paint Thibs as **** when he has **** to work with.

ewing
05-23-2018, 11:55 PM
**** job? He may be dumb, but havenít Wolves improved year after year since his arrival? Butler injury ruined Wolves last year, and Towns is a **** defender, and Wiggins is ****. Itís hard to just paint Thibs as **** when he has **** to work with.

He's doesn't get the analytics!!!!!!!

mngopher35
05-24-2018, 12:35 AM
**** job? He may be dumb, but havenít Wolves improved year after year since his arrival? Butler injury ruined Wolves last year, and Towns is a **** defender, and Wiggins is ****. Itís hard to just paint Thibs as **** when he has **** to work with.

When he joined we were largely called one of the best young up and coming team in the league. He improved us from a 29 win team to a 32 win team the year he joined, given our youth that isn't impressive at all and in fact, for those who watched closely, you can point to how we started the year style wise due to Thibs as the main reason. He forced the ball to wiggins 1v1 and it pushed Ricky to the corner far too often and especially late in close games (statistically you can see Rubio's boost post mid december, Towns actually benefited from style change as well). It hurt our team as a whole and is a major reason we lost a lot early until Thibs adjusted. It was pretty evident Thibs isn't used to or good at having to adjust (his offense, rotations, system etc) which is a bad sign in general imo but was evident from the very start as our big issue. We finished the season 25-33 so while we may not have quite been a playoff team yet we clearly weren't as bad as when forced into thibs ball earlier in the year.

This all lead to a change in direction allowing Thibs to get exactly what he wanted by cashing in most of our assets (cap space, 2 top 7 lottery picks, lavine and Rubio all shipped out). We brought in a bunch of older vets ready to compete now but who won't bring as much future value either (Teague, Taj, Crawford and of course Butler in the trade).

This year we saw a team with vets/thibs guys and development from our youth leading to a defensive rating that was 2 points better than in 2016 when Towns was a rookie and we were one of the worst teams in the league. Towns isn't a great defender but he did get better in that time, same with Wiggins. Butler/Taj and thibs guys also should help. I am not going to say Thibs coaching defensively is a problem but this was supposed to be the big area he excels. We should get a bigger boost just from natural development yet going from Mitchell to Thibs, getting his guys/role players and natural development didn't do much on that end at all.

Now we have reports of issues with Towns etc. on top of this. Wiggins on a max. Butler has one year left and hasn't really sounded over committed or anything. Picks/cap has been used up already by Thibs to get this core. Thibs chose most of this group to work with and we went from one of the most promising young teams to a bit of a team in turmoil pretty quick under him. I won't say he can't recover this offseason and make some good moves to improve us going into next year where hopefully it all finally comes together (especially on defense) but so far he has done a pretty bad job imo and many fans think he is our biggest issue moving forward.

ewing
05-24-2018, 12:38 AM
This guy would be great at watching LeBron from the corner


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Tg11
05-24-2018, 04:44 AM
KAT to the Lakers or you can always trade him to the Knicks, Heat, Wizards or even dare I say it to the Raptors. KAT to the Raptors and I would give up Lowry, JV, Van Vleet, and draft pick.

WestCoastSportz
05-24-2018, 12:50 PM
I would fire Thibodeau and trade Wiggins before giving up on KAT. Make it a team that KAT would be happy on. Unfortunately for Wiggins, he's a poison pill so he wouldn't be easy to move.

Tg11
05-24-2018, 03:01 PM
Unless you find a team willing to take a chance on Wiggins taking a chance on that contract of his but teams I can see Wiggins going to

Bulls, Magic, Suns, Pelicans, Kings, Mavericks, Raptors hometown hero or Wiggins going to Brooklyn dare I say it

specialiststeve
05-26-2018, 11:57 PM
Interesting... Just spent the last half an hour reading the thread.

1st let everyone be clear Towns is going nowhere. He may be a little unhappy Tibs fired his development guy but guess what this is a business and stuff like that happens. How much development did Towns have on defense? Not much... new development guy please.

With that I pretty much had to laugh at the majority of "offers" folks have made. Towns had a horrible playoff but his year was dominating otherwise. Sending "parts" offers ... really? If he ever does get moved it would only be for an established young star.... the brow - maybe ... others are realistically not in the ballpark.

2nd - Tibs did get this team to the playoffs for the first time in a lifetime depending on how old you are... He does need to get an offensive coordinator though as his old school Iso ball is horrible basketball.

3rd - Wiggins is still figuring it out but probably played harden as good as anyone in the playoffs and his offensive game is as good as any young player. He needs to be better at 3's but that will come. You don't give away a guy as talented as him for scrubs.... would be stupid. For an established player fine...

overall the Wolves are in a very good spot. Young stars that have a taste of the playoffs with a veteran leader in Butler. Tib's hopefully will get someone in to help him on the offensive side and we can take another step forward. . ..

We have a fair amount of folks in our forum with a "sky is falling" attitude while the sky was a little cloudy at the end of the year there are a ton of sunny days ahead!

GREATNESS ONE
05-27-2018, 12:14 AM
I like SpecialistSteve

IKnowHoops
05-27-2018, 03:13 AM
I just donít see Towns fitting on an elite team. Heís an amazing scorer but heís a weak link defensively at a pivotal spot and not a shot creator for others. Doesnít seem fit to be one of the top 2 or 3 players on a championship team.

Obviously one of the better players in the game but I donít see how he translates to a winning team at the salary/resource level it would take to get/keep him.

I see Tatum eventually locking up that same salary but not being as impactful.

Heediot
05-27-2018, 08:21 AM
Rubio and Lavine in hindsight looks like the ones who should of been kept.

IndyRealist
05-27-2018, 09:04 AM
Interesting... Just spent the last half an hour reading the thread.

1st let everyone be clear Towns is going nowhere. He may be a little unhappy Tibs fired his development guy but guess what this is a business and stuff like that happens. How much development did Towns have on defense? Not much... new development guy please.

With that I pretty much had to laugh at the majority of "offers" folks have made. Towns had a horrible playoff but his year was dominating otherwise. Sending "parts" offers ... really? If he ever does get moved it would only be for an established young star.... the brow - maybe ... others are realistically not in the ballpark.

2nd - Tibs did get this team to the playoffs for the first time in a lifetime depending on how old you are... He does need to get an offensive coordinator though as his old school Iso ball is horrible basketball.

3rd - Wiggins is still figuring it out but probably played harden as good as anyone in the playoffs and his offensive game is as good as any young player. He needs to be better at 3's but that will come. You don't give away a guy as talented as him for scrubs.... would be stupid. For an established player fine...

overall the Wolves are in a very good spot. Young stars that have a taste of the playoffs with a veteran leader in Butler. Tib's hopefully will get someone in to help him on the offensive side and we can take another step forward. . ..

We have a fair amount of folks in our forum with a "sky is falling" attitude while the sky was a little cloudy at the end of the year there are a ton of sunny days ahead!

Those are two contradictory statements.

IndyRealist
05-27-2018, 09:24 AM
Since we're talking about it:



2pt%
3pt%
FT%


Andrew Wiggins
47.5%
33.1%
64.3%


Average Wing
48.1%
35.9%
74.1%


Below average at everything does not make someone a good offensive player.

Vinylman
05-27-2018, 09:25 AM
I like SpecialistSteve

me too

I just want some of the crack he is smoking... appears to be real good stuff

specialiststeve
05-27-2018, 02:38 PM
I see Tatum eventually locking up that same salary but not being as impactful. Love Towns as a Wolves guy but Tatum is a stud also. Has shown he is not afraid in fact pretty much embraces the big stage of the playoffs. Two great young players.... both very impactful. Thing with Tatum he has likely the best coach in the NBA and gets the best out of ALL of his players. Like Tib's and he has been good for the Wolves but he is not in the ballpark as a coach as Stevens...

specialiststeve
05-27-2018, 02:56 PM
Wiggins is still figuring it out but probably played harden as good as anyone in the playoffs and his offensive game is as good as any young player. He needs to be better at 3's but that will come.



Those are two contradictory statements.

Actually not.... there have been many great offensive players that have not been good 3 point shooters.....

Jordan.... 32.7 %
Barkley.... 26.6%
Drexler...... 31.8%
Dr. J......... 29.8%

All Hall of famers .... GREAT offensive players. Mind you I am not comparing Wiggins to them but just pointing out that you "can" be a very good offensive player without being a great 3 point player... they can go together but saying you have to be a great 3 point shooter to be a great offensive player is just not correct.

Understanding the game is changing a ton here in the past few years and it is a large part of the game now. All wings now and even bigs are expected to be able to hit them... I do understand that. Best player in the game today LeBron wasn't a decent 3 point shooter until about 7-8 year into his career...

specialiststeve
05-27-2018, 02:58 PM
me too

I just want some of the crack he is smoking... appears to be real good stuff

Don't touch the stuff... is for stupid people.

Just a sports junkie.

IndyRealist
05-27-2018, 04:19 PM
Actually not.... there have been many great offensive players that have not been good 3 point shooters.....

Jordan.... 32.7 %
Barkley.... 26.6%
Drexler...... 31.8%
Dr. J......... 29.8%

All Hall of famers .... GREAT offensive players. Mind you I am not comparing Wiggins to them but just pointing out that you "can" be a very good offensive player without being a great 3 point player... they can go together but saying you have to be a great 3 point shooter to be a great offensive player is just not correct.

Understanding the game is changing a ton here in the past few years and it is a large part of the game now. All wings now and even bigs are expected to be able to hit them... I do understand that. Best player in the game today LeBron wasn't a decent 3 point shooter until about 7-8 year into his career...

That's a strawman argument. I did not say there were no good offensive players who couldn't shoot 3s well. None of the players you mentioned are "young players" so they are irrelevant to the conversation.

What you said was: "...his offensive game is as good as any young player...."
There are easily several young players that are all better than him offensively. Because he's not good. At anything. But to the specific point, you acknowledge he needs to improve his 3pt shooting, so how can his offensive game be AS GOOD AS any other young player when he is below average at everything? He would have to be unstoppable at getting to the rim, or draw double digit free throws every game, to make up for how poorly he shoots. He does neither.

Andrew Wiggins is the classic example of the fallibility of the eye test. When he does something it LOOKS impressive, because he's hyper athletic. But the only reason he puts up a lot of points is because he takes a lot of shots. Not because he's any good at scoring. But if you were just watching him play, it sure looks impressive.

mngopher35
05-27-2018, 04:24 PM
Those are two contradictory statements.

You said this and bolded him saying "his offensive game is as good as any young player. He needs to be better at 3's but that will come."


That's a strawman argument. I did not say there were no good offensive players who couldn't shoot 3s well. None of the players you mentioned are "young players" so they are irrelevant to the conversation.

What you said was: "...his offensive game is as good as any young player...."
There are easily several young players that are all better than him offensively. Because he's not good. At anything. But to the specific point, you acknowledge he needs to improve his 3pt shooting, so how can his offensive game be AS GOOD AS any other young player when he is below average at everything? He would have to be unstoppable at getting to the rim, or draw double digit free throws every game, to make up for how poorly he shoots. He does neither.

Andrew Wiggins is the classic example of the fallibility of the eye test. When he does something it LOOKS impressive, because he's hyper athletic. But the only reason he puts up a lot of points is because he takes a lot of shots. Not because he's any good at scoring. But if you were just watching him play, it sure looks impressive.

I am sorry but there is no strawaman here, you made a false claim and he pointed out why. You can have as good of offense as any other player AND need to improve you 3 ball (as he mentioned see younger Lebron). This is not contradictory like you claimed, both can be true.

I agree there are flaws to Wiggins game that imo make it so you can argue his offensive game isn't as good as any in the league. You are right on with that assessment imo, just wrong about him using a strawman/that being contradictory. He was simply responding to what you called him out for in that initial post (and he was right, it's not necessarily contradictory)

IndyRealist
05-27-2018, 04:34 PM
You said this and bolded him saying "his offensive game is as good as any young player. He needs to be better at 3's but that will come."



I am sorry but there is no strawaman here, you made a false claim and he pointed out why. You can have as good of offense as any other player AND need to improve you 3 ball (as he mentioned see younger Lebron). This is not contradictory like you claimed, both can be true.

I agree there are flaws to Wiggins game that imo make it so you can argue his offensive game isn't as good as any in the league. You are right on with that assessment imo, just wrong about him using a strawman/that being contradictory. He was simply responding to what you called him out for in that initial post (and he was right, it's not necessarily contradictory)

His offensive game is NOT as good as any young player. His acknowledgement that Wiggins needs to improve his 3pt shooting contradicts his first statement, because there are young players who do NOT need to improve their 3pt shooting, and the rest of Wiggins' offense does not make up for the lack of shooting. If Wiggins was 65% inside the arc, then his offense would be as good as any young player, because while he can't shoot he's still very efficient at scoring. However, as you can see in the chart posted above, he is below average inside the arc, below average outside the arc, and below average at the line.

mngopher35
05-27-2018, 04:39 PM
His offensive game is NOT as good as any young player. His acknowledgement that Wiggins needs to improve his 3pt shooting contradicts his first statement, because there are young players who do NOT need to improve their 3pt shooting, and the rest of Wiggins' offense does not make up for the lack of shooting. If Wiggins was 65% inside the arc, then his offense would be as good as any young player, because while he can't shoot he's still very efficient at scoring. However, as you can see in the chart posted above, he is below average inside the arc, below average outside the arc, and below average at the line.


This is FALSE though and whether or not the rest of Wiggins abilities cover it isn't the issue at all on if it's contradictory or not. Wiggins wouldn't need to have the best 3 point shooting to be the best young offensive player. Lebron and MJ at some point were likely thought of as best offensive players and could be argued they needed to improve their 3 pt shot still. Were young players who didn't have that problem better because of it? Nope, because obviously it's other factors outside of the 3 point shot that also play a part.

Again you are right that Wiggins has multiple issues that lead to him not being among the best offensive players. His statement there was not contradictory though as has been pointed out multiple times now. Wiggins isn't the top offensive player for multiple reasons not relating to 3pt shot.

Edit: This really should be simple, let me try another way of explaining. This is what was said and bolded:

his offensive game is as good as any young player. He needs to be better at 3's but that will come.

You said:

Those are two contradictory statements.

Note that there are 2 statements being made/bolded and you say they are contradictory, even written as seperate sentances to make it easy. 1. Wiggins is as good offensive game as any young player 2. he needs to be better at 3's but that will come. These are not contradictory statements which was what you claimed and he responded to. He was right on in that assessment and it clearly wasn't a strawman unless you forgot you recently posted that.

I get you disagree with him on Wiggins being the best young offensive player but the many reasons you have mentioned since is why, not because his initial post was contradictory like you claimed.

IndyRealist
05-27-2018, 05:00 PM
This is FALSE though and whether or not the rest of Wiggins abilities cover it isn't the issue at all on if it's contradictory or not. Wiggins wouldn't need to have the best 3 point shooting to be the best young offensive player. Lebron and MJ at some point were likely thought of as best offensive players and could be argued they needed to improve their 3 pt shot still. Were young players who didn't have that problem better because of it? Nope, because obviously it's other factors outside of the 3 point shot that also play a part.

Again you are right that Wiggins has multiple issues that lead to him not being among the best offensive players. His statement there was not contradictory though as has been pointed out multiple times now. Wiggins isn't the top offensive player for multiple reasons not relating to 3pt shot.

Edit: This really should be simple, let me try another way of explaining. This is what was said and bolded:

his offensive game is as good as any young player. He needs to be better at 3's but that will come.

You said:

Those are two contradictory statements.

Note that there are 2 statements being made/bolded and you say they are contradictory, even written as seperate sentances to make it easy. 1. Wiggins is as good offensive game as any young player 2. he needs to be better at 3's but that will come. These are not contradictory statements which was what you claimed and he responded to. He was right on in that assessment and it clearly wasn't a strawman unless you forgot you recently posted that.

I get you disagree with him on Wiggins being the best young offensive player but the many reasons you have mentioned since is why, not because his initial post was contradictory like you claimed.

Sorry, I had a chance to think about what you are saying and you are correct. His 2nd statement is not independently contradictory. In a larger context it is, but the statement in isolation is not.

mngopher35
05-27-2018, 05:19 PM
Sorry, I had a chance to think about what you are saying and you are correct. His 2nd statement is not independently contradictory. In a larger context it is, but the statement in isolation is not.

Yup exactly. I just wanted to clear that one part up as I think your overall point/argument against Wiggins himself is correct. He does have flaws and his efficiency just isn't where it needs to be, he isn't one of those top offensive guys like you mentioned. Not just because of the 3 but it also is a part of it.

It was just that initial post/bolded part that seemed off in your analysis even if not intentional and it was gonna have you guys arguing different things I think (if wiggins is a top offensive player and if a top offensive player needs to be best at 3).

GREATNESS ONE
05-27-2018, 05:54 PM
me too

I just want some of the crack he is smoking... appears to be real good stuff

:laugh2:

beasted86
05-27-2018, 06:34 PM
His offensive game is NOT as good as any young player. His acknowledgement that Wiggins needs to improve his 3pt shooting contradicts his first statement, because there are young players who do NOT need to improve their 3pt shooting, and the rest of Wiggins' offense does not make up for the lack of shooting. If Wiggins was 65% inside the arc, then his offense would be as good as any young player, because while he can't shoot he's still very efficient at scoring. However, as you can see in the chart posted above, he is below average inside the arc, below average outside the arc, and below average at the line.

I think you need to step into reality and give the kid a break. Who exactly is this flock of young players in recent years with a better offensive game?

There's a handful of guys you can maybe mention and the list shrinks to nearly ZERO when considering how many are the 3rd option on their team.

Wiggins needs to improve but people have turned reality to hyperbole in bashing his talent.

mngopher35
05-27-2018, 06:51 PM
I think you need to step into reality and give the kid a break. Who exactly is this flock of young players in recent years with a better offensive game?

There's a handful of guys you can maybe mention and the list shrinks to nearly ZERO when considering how many are the 3rd option on their team.

Wiggins needs to improve but people have turned reality to hyperbole in bashing his talent.

Well I think right now the problem is his talent, our offense, and his actual output. Some people define better as more of one of these than a combination etc. so it depends. I think he has extreme talent but low IQ and needs someone setting him up more often than he should be creating. So while I get what you and a few others are getting at in that he is skilled/talented he hasn't put it together and proven to actually be better than many young guys. His offensive production/efficiency isn't that great due to many factors and that's more important than talent in the end. Until Wiggins is able to attack consistently, draw more contact and hit his shots at a better rate (including taking smarter shots) he just isn't going to be in a top tier of young guys offensively to most. Towns would be that guy from our team imo

beasted86
05-27-2018, 07:11 PM
Well I think right now the problem is his talent, our offense, and his actual output. Some people define better as more of one of these than a combination etc. so it depends. I think he has extreme talent but low IQ and needs someone setting him up more often than he should be creating. So while I get what you and a few others are getting at in that he is skilled/talented he hasn't put it together and proven to actually be better than many young guys. His offensive production/efficiency isn't that great due to many factors and that's more important than talent in the end. Until Wiggins is able to attack consistently, draw more contact and hit his shots at a better rate (including taking smarter shots) he just isn't going to be in a top tier of young guys offensively to most. Towns would be that guy from our team imo
Wiggins definitely has a poor basketball IQ and inconsistent effort. But his specific roster fit on top of the Wolves terrible offense magnifies it.

As I've said, there are a number of areas Wiggins needs to improve on, but I feel contact bias along with role expectations have moved so many to be much more pessimistic about him than should be the case.

If I were the development staff I'd actually focus MUCH more on movement off the ball and angles than shooting this summer.

IndyRealist
05-27-2018, 07:29 PM
I think you need to step into reality and give the kid a break. Who exactly is this flock of young players in recent years with a better offensive game?

There's a handful of guys you can maybe mention and the list shrinks to nearly ZERO when considering how many are the 3rd option on their team.

Wiggins needs to improve but people have turned reality to hyperbole in bashing his talent.

Not giving him a break for $100+ million, which is what he's getting on his extension. He can put up or shut up, complaining about his decreased role in the offense.

Jayson Tatum and Jaylen Brown are both better than him at everything. That's 2 without even trying.

mngopher35
05-27-2018, 07:42 PM
Wiggins definitely has a poor basketball IQ and inconsistent effort. But his specific roster fit on top of the Wolves terrible offense magnifies it.

As I've said, there are a number of areas Wiggins needs to improve on, but I feel contact bias along with role expectations have moved so many to be much more pessimistic about him than should be the case.

If I were the development staff I'd actually focus MUCH more on movement off the ball and angles than shooting this summer.

I can agree with this to an extent, some of it is warranted though. It gets too overboard from many too though so I get what you are saying about how negative people can be. I just don't think he is in a top group of young guys atm. He is in the group that need to step up a bit and prove themselves now with real question marks moreso than a group of best young talents.

I think him learning how to play offense with cutting/slashing, angles like you mention, how to take efficient shot's/where to shoot from etc. would be huge. He has the potential if he were to put everything together and play smart but that's an IF I have been waiting on a while now. I definitely want him to succeed but I see it as a question mark moreso than him being a sure thing compared to plenty of other young guys.

beasted86
05-27-2018, 07:51 PM
Not giving him a break for $100+ million, which is what he's getting on his extension. He can put up or shut up, complaining about his decreased role in the offense.

Jayson Tatum and Jaylen Brown are both better than him at everything. That's 2 without even trying.

Okay... So two players who have interchanged 2nd option roles for most of the season...

Just two out of the hundred or so guys still in the NBA that have been drafted in the past 4-5 years. So basically Wiggins is the 3rd best 3rd option player in the NBA from the younger pool of guys < 24 yrs old?

How many are even good enough to be a 3rd option? Or have a team around them good enough that they're 3rd?

Wiggins isn't even making the $100M yet. As I've outlined already... severe contact bias.

IndyRealist
05-27-2018, 08:00 PM
Okay... So two players who have interchanged 2nd option roles for most of the season...

Just two out of the hundred or so guys still in the NBA that have been drafted in the past 4-5 years. So basically Wiggins is the 3rd best 3rd option player in the NBA from the younger pool of guys < 24 yrs old?

How many are even good enough to be a 3rd option? Or have a team around them good enough that they're 3rd?

Wiggins isn't even making the $100M yet. As I've outlined already... severe contact bias.

He already has the extension, it just kicks in next season. It's not bias, it's value. He is not worth what he is going to make. Even in a vacuum, ignoring contracts totally, he is a below average guard.

If he were going to make the MLE you could keep him around to see if he improves. But you're going to pay max money and hope he develops when he's shown no growth so far? That's bad management.

specialiststeve
05-27-2018, 09:09 PM
Wow - Pretty much like the Wolves forum out here...

Again I completely agree that Wiggins has a TON to work on in his game especially his consistency. Getting to his value a ton is expected of him and should be with the tools that he has.

First understand that he made 7.5 mil this year which is peanuts in the NBA and averaged 17.7 pts per game with most of his other stats being also fairly mediocre. Got it. Also understand his usage rate went way down this year. Last hear and the year before he averaged 20.7 and 23.6 per game as a 20 and 21 year old.... You can say what you want but that is a good young scorer on any team. Frame it how you want but with higher usage he had better numbers..... only makes sense... just like being used less with get you less numbers. He got his extension on the 23.6 per game.... tell me a team who is not going to do that?

As far as not being worth what he "is going to make" you may be right or you may be wrong. It all depends on what he puts together "next" year but value for what he made is pretty much what he should have produced for his pay....

You are correct in part of your assessment that he gets you when he goes off and wows you... that needs to become more the norm for him to earn what they are "going" to give him. If he does Wolves take the next step... if not we stay about where we (Wolves) were last year.

IndyRealist
05-27-2018, 09:28 PM
Wow - Pretty much like the Wolves forum out here...

Again I completely agree that Wiggins has a TON to work on in his game especially his consistency. Getting to his value a ton is expected of him and should be with the tools that he has.

First understand that he made 7.5 mil this year which is peanuts in the NBA and averaged 17.7 pts per game with most of his other stats being also fairly mediocre. Got it. Also understand his usage rate went way down this year. Last hear and the year before he averaged 20.7 and 23.6 per game as a 20 and 21 year old.... You can say what you want but that is a good young scorer on any team. Frame it how you want but with higher usage he had better numbers..... only makes sense... just like being used less with get you less numbers. He got his extension on the 23.6 per game.... tell me a team who is not going to do that?

As far as not being worth what he "is going to make" you may be right or you may be wrong. It all depends on what he puts together "next" year but value for what he made is pretty much what he should have produced for his pay....

You are correct in part of your assessment that he gets you when he goes off and wows you... that needs to become more the norm for him to earn what they are "going" to give him. If he does Wolves take the next step... if not we stay about where we (Wolves) were last year.

No it's not. It's volume. Per game stats are next to useless. Not including rookies, 7 of the last 8 #1 picks have averaged 23 ppg. #1 picks are generally on bad teams, are the new "face of the franchise", and are force-fed shots. Points per game is a terrible way of measuring anything.

specialiststeve
05-27-2018, 09:35 PM
Love Jason Tatum and Jaylen brown and they have stepped up BIG TIME in the playoffs....

Stats for the year....

Tatum 30.5 minutes per game... 13.9 ppg, 5 rpg, 1.6 apg, 1 spg, 47% fgp, 3pt % 43%

Brown 30.7 mpg..... 14.5 ppg, 4.9 rpg, 1.6 apg, 1 spg, 46% fgp, 3pt % 39%

Wiggins 36.3 mpg....17.7 ppg, 4.4 rpg, 2 apg, 1.1 spg, 43% fgp, 3pt% 34%

So looking at it I agree that Tatum and Brown have been good and have it on him especially the 3 pt %....Wiggins has higher scoring average........ otherwise everything else is pretty much negligible.... .... at least on the offensive side. Wiggins made some strides on the defensive side which was encouraging.

Will be interesting for Tatum and Brown when Kyrie and Hayward get back next year and they are not the focus of the team.... guessing they will struggle some .... as Wiggins did....

All in all we are fine in agreeing to disagree on Wiggin's value and ability. It will be up to him to prove us right or wrong. Just understanding with someone with his abilities the Wolves are not "giving" him away....

IndyRealist
05-27-2018, 09:45 PM
Love Jason Tatum and Jaylen brown and they have stepped up BIG TIME in the playoffs....

Stats for the year....

Tatum 30.5 minutes per game... 13.9 ppg, 5 rpg, 1.6 apg, 1 spg, 47% fgp, 3pt % 43%

Brown 30.7 mpg..... 14.5 ppg, 4.9 rpg, 1.6 apg, 1 spg, 46% fgp, 3pt % 39%

Wiggins 36.3 mpg....17.7 ppg, 4.4 rpg, 2 apg, 1.1 spg, 43% fgp, 3pt% 34%

So looking at it I agree that Tatum and Brown have been good and have it on him especially the 3 pt %....Wiggins has higher scoring average........ otherwise everything else is pretty much negligible.... .... at least on the offensive side. Wiggins made some strides on the defensive side which was encouraging.

Will be interesting for Tatum and Brown when Kyrie and Hayward get back next year and they are not the focus of the team.... guessing they will struggle some .... as Wiggins did....

All in all we are fine in agreeing to disagree on Wiggin's value and ability. It will be up to him to prove us right or wrong. Just understanding with someone with his abilities the Wolves are not "giving" him away....

Yeah we're just gonna disagree. But I would highly suggest quoting per36 or per 100 possession numbers instead of per game, like I said per game is next to useless. And as a rule I quote 2pt FG% and 3pt FG% separately. FG% obscures how someone scores. All of it's readily available on basketball reference.

specialiststeve
05-27-2018, 09:53 PM
No it's not. It's volume. Per game stats are next to useless. Not including rookies, 7 of the last 8 #1 picks have averaged 23 ppg. #1 picks are generally on bad teams, are the new "face of the franchise", and are force-fed shots. Points per game is a terrible way of measuring anything.

Isn't that how they tell who wins games? ;)

specialiststeve
05-27-2018, 10:04 PM
Yeah we're just gonna disagree. But I would highly suggest quoting per36 or per 100 possession numbers instead of per game, like I said per game is next to useless. And as a rule I quote 2pt FG% and 3pt FG% separately. FG% obscures how someone scores. All of it's readily available on basketball reference.

Where I got the stats. Am a bit old school and all the analytics drive me a bit nuts at times. So you can probably use the stats to make your point which I am not going to try to argue with. I have gone that direction with some and have those that can find stats to defend their point while not actually seeing the game and the player and said players abilities. Wiggins has ability... he has clearly yet to tap all of it... hopefully he will.

As far as getting back to the Wolves as a whole I really believe that all of this is WAY overblown and most of the team will be in tact. They do have some decisions to make in the next year that will determine it's future.

CityofTreez
05-28-2018, 01:09 AM
Steve, you know whatís up with Minny.

Thibs isnít **** like the garbage PSD opinions I read on here!

specialiststeve
05-28-2018, 09:24 PM
Steve, you know whatís up with Minny.

Thibs isnít **** like the garbage PSD opinions I read on here!

There are many in the Wolves forum that are down on Tib's also... He only brought the Wolves to the playoffs for the first time in eons. I get a kick out of the "he is too hard on guys" thing. That was exactly what the young pups needed and still need. Love Towns but he clearly has to get tougher both physically and mentally as well as Wiggins.

I do think his offensive sets are outdated and needs some help on that end as he has a pretty good roster and played WAY to much iso ball with Butler. Love Butler but there was too much talent on the floor to do that so much. Hopefully they stay the course as I think they have a great chance of even being better next year if they commit to Tib's and what he is asking of them. We shall see.

Oakmont_4
05-29-2018, 09:10 AM
Love Jason Tatum and Jaylen brown and they have stepped up BIG TIME in the playoffs....

Stats for the year....

Tatum 30.5 minutes per game... 13.9 ppg, 5 rpg, 1.6 apg, 1 spg, 47% fgp, 3pt % 43%

Brown 30.7 mpg..... 14.5 ppg, 4.9 rpg, 1.6 apg, 1 spg, 46% fgp, 3pt % 39%

Wiggins 36.3 mpg....17.7 ppg, 4.4 rpg, 2 apg, 1.1 spg, 43% fgp, 3pt% 34%

So looking at it I agree that Tatum and Brown have been good and have it on him especially the 3 pt %....Wiggins has higher scoring average........ otherwise everything else is pretty much negligible.... .... at least on the offensive side. Wiggins made some strides on the defensive side which was encouraging.

Will be interesting for Tatum and Brown when Kyrie and Hayward get back next year and they are not the focus of the team.... guessing they will struggle some .... as Wiggins did....

All in all we are fine in agreeing to disagree on Wiggin's value and ability. It will be up to him to prove us right or wrong. Just understanding with someone with his abilities the Wolves are not "giving" him away....

I doubt the struggle because they're no longer the focus. Their stats may go down slights or probably just remain the same - but they'll become more efficient. Now that they're no longer in the top 3 options, now they'll be options 4-5 meaning they'll also be matched up against weaker players. Their volume and usage will go down but their efficiency should go up.

IndyRealist
05-29-2018, 11:06 AM
I doubt the struggle because they're no longer the focus. Their stats may go down slights or probably just remain the same - but they'll become more efficient. Now that they're no longer in the top 3 options, now they'll be options 4-5 meaning they'll also be matched up against weaker players. Their volume and usage will go down but their efficiency should go up.

Usage curves are a myth. There is no inverse correlation between usage and efficiency. It is in fact a slightly positive correlation, i.e. people become slightly more efficient when they start taking more shots. It likely has to do with getting into a shooting rhythm.

If their efficiency goes up, I'd guess it's because of the quality of the players defending them. It's not because of their usage.

specialiststeve
05-29-2018, 01:58 PM
Usage curves are a myth. There is no inverse correlation between usage and efficiency. It is in fact a slightly positive correlation, i.e. people become slightly more efficient when they start taking more shots. It likely has to do with getting into a shooting rhythm.

If their efficiency goes up, I'd guess it's because of the quality of the players defending them. It's not because of their usage.

Interesting take. I would agree that if you are in the game more often and are looked at to score, rebound etc... that your efficiency would be better. As a former player... clearly not at this level.... coming off the bench in limited minutes did not make me more efficient. My guess it would all depend on the player.

Guys like Tatum and Brown who now have a taste of "being the man" put in a roll of being a roll player may play into their game. I seen players many times who were the go to guys and then end up being a roll player struggle as have a hard time adjusting. I have also seen guys thrive on limited rolls as they are more defined and expectations are clearly less. It will be interesting to see how they react. Good part for the Celts is their coach I am sure is going to sell it well....

IndyRealist
05-29-2018, 03:21 PM
Interesting take. I would agree that if you are in the game more often and are looked at to score, rebound etc... that your efficiency would be better. As a former player... clearly not at this level.... coming off the bench in limited minutes did not make me more efficient. My guess it would all depend on the player.

Guys like Tatum and Brown who now have a taste of "being the man" put in a roll of being a roll player may play into their game. I seen players many times who were the go to guys and then end up being a roll player struggle as have a hard time adjusting. I have also seen guys thrive on limited rolls as they are more defined and expectations are clearly less. It will be interesting to see how they react. Good part for the Celts is their coach I am sure is going to sell it well....

Some guys do better with less shots, some guys do worse. It 100% depends on the the player. The overall average is almost flat, i.e. you can't say there's a trend one way or another.

Ishkabibble
05-29-2018, 05:45 PM
what the wolves will want very few teams will pay... So yes as much as it would be Ball and Ingram it would likely be brown and tatum as well or Fultz and saric and picks... You will have to give up a kings ransom for this dude period.

Enough with Fultz already; the kid scored a total of 100 pts. last season. We'll see him in Summer League and pick it up from there. Until then, a total question mark with likely lack-of-confidence issues. The other 5 referenced trade pieces are at least (to some extent) proven. I wouldn't touch that guy with a 10-foot pole until I've seen a helluva lot more. At this juncture, I'm frankly surprised you guys view him as such a valuable trade piece.
And after what we just saw in the postseason, comparing the trade value of Brown and Tatum vs. the trade value of Saric and Fultz is flat-out laughable.

TheDish87
05-31-2018, 11:19 AM
not really laughable.

Giannis94
05-31-2018, 11:25 AM
not really laughable.

Fultz is a lottery ticket with "issues" to say the least and Saric is a stretch 4. Brown and Tatum have proven more and have far higher ceilings, no?

If I'm the Celtics I'm looking to trade Heyward and keep those 2 in the lineup.

IKnowHoops
05-31-2018, 12:39 PM
I like SpecialistSteve

👍

IKnowHoops
05-31-2018, 12:41 PM
Those are two contradictory statements.

Not really. Lebrons offensive game is better than anyoneís right now...and he still needs to be better at 3ís

Giannis94
05-31-2018, 12:45 PM
👍

I love him too

TheDish87
05-31-2018, 01:19 PM
Fultz is a lottery ticket with "issues" to say the least and Saric is a stretch 4. Brown and Tatum have proven more and have far higher ceilings, no?

If I'm the Celtics I'm looking to trade Heyward and keep those 2 in the lineup.

Sorry what has Brown proven over Saric? they have had similar careers so far and both showed great improvement this year. Fultz still looked pretty good at the end of the season even without taking 3s but the plaoyff benching is so fresh in everyones mind so i get it. Tatum/Brown at the moment is worth more than Saric/Fultz no doubt but i just said its not laughably different.

homie564
05-31-2018, 01:55 PM
Sorry what has Brown proven over Saric? they have had similar careers so far and both showed great improvement this year. Fultz still looked pretty good at the end of the season even without taking 3s but the plaoyff benching is so fresh in everyones mind so i get it. Tatum/Brown at the moment is worth more than Saric/Fultz no doubt but i just said its not laughably different.

Saric had a much bigger role than Brown in their rookie years, but I think Brown has proven so far to be a better player. Iím a celts fan, so there may be some obvious bias, but his improvement in the 3 pt game, the fact that heís actually 3 years younger than Saric despite similar NBA experience (which is a huge deal btw when it comes to value...), and the fact that heís THAT much better on defense... idk... I think Brown is clearly the more valuable commodity.

Tatum to Fultz is really not close right now...Iím not closing the door on Fultz at all, but what Tatum did this season and especially in the playoffs.... itís pretty much night and day.

Itís ďnot laughableĒ in the literal sense that itís really not funny lol, but I donít think itís close in terms of value. From a value standpoint... I definitely wouldnít trade Tatum alone for both of those guys, and would probably have a hard trading brown for them too (especially without certainty Fultz can shoot) :shrug:


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

IndyRealist
05-31-2018, 02:06 PM
Not really. Lebrons offensive game is better than anyoneís right now...and he still needs to be better at 3ís

All sorted out already. I said I was wrong.

TheDish87
05-31-2018, 02:17 PM
Saric had a much bigger role than Brown in their rookie years, but I think Brown has proven so far to be a better player. Iím a celts fan, so there may be some obvious bias, but his improvement in the 3 pt game, the fact that heís actually 3 years younger than Saric despite similar NBA experience (which is a huge deal btw when it comes to value...), and the fact that heís THAT much better on defense... idk... I think Brown is clearly the more valuable commodity.

Tatum to Fultz is really not close right now...Iím not closing the door on Fultz at all, but what Tatum did this season and especially in the playoffs.... itís pretty much night and day.

Itís ďnot laughableĒ in the literal sense that itís really not funny lol, but I donít think itís close in terms of value. From a value standpoint... I definitely wouldnít trade Tatum alone for both of those guys, and would probably have a hard trading brown for them too (especially without certainty Fultz can shoot) :shrug:


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

hah i know how you meant laughable! but i just dont see Brown being above Saric like you seem to think and i see 2 guys who made incredible improvements this year compared to year 1.

IndyRealist
05-31-2018, 03:07 PM
hah i know how you meant laughable! but i just dont see Brown being above Saric like you seem to think and i see 2 guys who made incredible improvements this year compared to year 1.

Objectively they're pretty similar right now. However, Brown seems more athletic for his position than Saric is for his, and Brown's 3 years younger. As far as trade value goes, that gives the edge to Brown.

homie564
05-31-2018, 03:25 PM
hah i know how you meant laughable! but i just dont see Brown being above Saric like you seem to think and i see 2 guys who made incredible improvements this year compared to year 1.

Lol I didnít say it, Iím just kind of following it up!

And again, I agree in that sense. I really like Saric, but I think Brown is a much better defender and theyíre similar offensive players. And despite the experience, sorry but Iím going to keep harping on that age gap. The fact that Brown is doing this at 21 makes him a good amount more valuable imo.


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specialiststeve
05-31-2018, 11:45 PM
Trying to follow this Saric/Fultz vs Tatum/Brown thing.... Saric had a nice year but the playoffs showcased Tatum in a way he could be a future star.... Didn't see that from Saric although he was good... . Fultz just had a disastrous rookie year. He could be a good player but who knows. As far as his trade value at this time it is very low and not even close to either Tatum or Brown.

Relating this to this thread I don't see any way Towns goes anywhere but clearly not for Saric/Fultz. Wolves would have to think twice if the Celts offered Tatum and Brown.... but don't think they would as I said before I don't think it will happen but if it did it would have to involve a top "established" star.

TheDish87
06-01-2018, 08:53 AM
well in the playoffs...

Tatum: 18/4/2 with 2 turnovers 47% FG and 32% 3pt and 36MPG

Saric: 17/7/3 with 1.5 turnovers on 42% FG and 38% 3pt in 32MPG

Oakmont_4
06-01-2018, 09:03 AM
well in the playoffs...

Tatum: 18/4/2 with 2 turnovers 47% FG and 32% 3pt and 36MPG

Saric: 17/7/3 with 1.5 turnovers on 42% FG and 38% 3pt in 32MPG

And one was a rookie at 20 and the other a sophomore at 23

TheDish87
06-01-2018, 09:32 AM
correct. but but that doesnt make one player on the way to super stardom and the other not bcuz of age. Lets not forget the physical gifts Tatum has compared to Saric and he still played equally as well.

Oakmont_4
06-01-2018, 09:38 AM
correct. but but that doesnt make one player on the way to super stardom and the other not bcuz of age. Lets not forget the physical gifts Tatum has compared to Saric and he still played equally as well.

When someone plays equally well to someone who's 3 years older and has more league experience. That absolutely shows more room to grow than the older player...Thought this point was kind of obvious.

TheDish87
06-01-2018, 09:40 AM
more room for growth, sure, probably but not a definite. i didnt really argue that. It also doesnt disqualify an older player from growing either.

Giannis94
06-01-2018, 10:54 AM
There's just not much to say to TheDish anymore. Some of the most questionable/poor takes (that I can't even argue) I have ever seen.

IndyRealist
06-01-2018, 12:06 PM
well in the playoffs...

Tatum: 18/4/2 with 2 turnovers 47% FG and 32% 3pt and 36MPG

Saric: 17/7/3 with 1.5 turnovers on 42% FG and 38% 3pt in 32MPG


Player
P/36
R/36
A/36
TO/36
2pt%
3pt%
FT%
TS%


Tatum
18.5
4.4
2.7
2.2
52.6%
32.4%
84.5%
57.8%


Saric
18.8
8.0
3.6
1.6
44.3%
38.5%
85.0%
54.6%


Brown
20.0
5.4
1.6
1.4
51.9%
39.3%
64.0%
56.3%


The bolded is why Tatum (and Brown) look like they're going to be stars and Saric looks like he's "just a good player", considering he's already older than the other two.

TheDish87
06-01-2018, 12:14 PM
you are not serious?

Oakmont_4
06-01-2018, 03:22 PM
more room for growth, sure, probably but not a definite. i didnt really argue that. It also doesnt disqualify an older player from growing either.

Nobody is saying Saric is a bad player. He's good. But he's never going to be a 1 or 2 option on a great team. Tatum and Brown can be. Moreso Tatum

TheDish87
06-01-2018, 03:54 PM
Nobody is saying Saric is a bad player. He's good. But he's never going to be a 1 or 2 option on a great team. Tatum and Brown can be. Moreso Tatum

The only thing i was really arguing was the way it was first presented. someone said Tatums playoff performance would equate to stardom, it made me look at at the stats and see how similar Sarics were who just gets brushed over. I believe Tatum will be a star but might not hit his ceiling in Boston, but as for Brown no im not gonna concede he is any better then Saric.

warfelg
06-01-2018, 03:59 PM
I'm going to start with I love Saric to death.

But

Brown's a better player for the modern NBA. Can shoot with range, like Saric. Can pass and handle, but not quite to the level of Saric. But Brown is a better athlete. He's a better defender. He has more versatility in that he can defend the 1-3 and switch onto the 4 at times. Saric can't do that. And in the current state of the NBA you need a guy who can do things like Brown can do.

FlashBolt
06-01-2018, 04:02 PM
I'm going to start with I love Saric to death.

But

Brown's a better player for the modern NBA. Can shoot with range, like Saric. Can pass and handle, but not quite to the level of Saric. But Brown is a better athlete. He's a better defender. He has more versatility in that he can defend the 1-3 and switch onto the 4 at times. Saric can't do that. And in the current state of the NBA you need a guy who can do things like Brown can do.

Brown's got more dog in him. I lost a hint of respect for Saric as a player when he said he didn't want to face LeBron. I thought that was fairly weak on his part.

Silent
06-01-2018, 04:09 PM
Would a deal for Clint Capella for KAT deal work? I think itís a great base to work around. (If both sides were inclined)

Capella is just another version of Deandre

colinskik
06-01-2018, 04:11 PM
I came to this thread because I thought there was new news about KAT...

Oakmont_4
06-01-2018, 04:12 PM
The only thing i was really arguing was the way it was first presented. someone said Tatums playoff performance would equate to stardom, it made me look at at the stats and see how similar Sarics were who just gets brushed over. I believe Tatum will be a star but might not hit his ceiling in Boston, but as for Brown no im not gonna concede he is any better then Saric.

If you take out Tatums first round against MIL....He averaged 20PPG vs PHI and CLE. That's likely what they're referring to because that's what we remember most. His growth from playoff series to playoff series was immense. I mean he averaged over 23PPG against PHI.

It's also beyond numbers. When the Celtics struggled in CLE and PHI, Tatum was the guy who scored and put them on his back. At such a young age, that's incredible. To be the main scoring threat for a team in the ECF at 20 years old... Watching him was more impressive than his numbers suggest.

specialiststeve
06-01-2018, 09:19 PM
I came to this thread because I thought there was new news about KAT...

Silly guy... you know how this goes... discussion and then off the discussion things go a bit awry. Pretty normal but interesting discussion.

Like others I really like Saric and he may become something special but the "eye test" in watching the playoffs would have Tatum-Brown-Saric in that order of being rated at this point.... includes offense and defense. Others may disagree which is fine but that is what I "saw". Stats aside....

specialiststeve
06-01-2018, 09:25 PM
Capella is just another version of Deandre Pretty much. Like both of them a bunch but not the "whole package" Towns is. They both play much better defense than KAT but his offensive game puts his value at a premium.... again parts (role players) aren't going to get it done.... Think top 20 type players which KAT is ....

Ishkabibble
06-05-2018, 05:23 PM
I'm going to start with I love Saric to death.

But

Brown's a better player for the modern NBA. Can shoot with range, like Saric. Can pass and handle, but not quite to the level of Saric. But Brown is a better athlete. He's a better defender. He has more versatility in that he can defend the 1-3 and switch onto the 4 at times. Saric can't do that. And in the current state of the NBA you need a guy who can do things like Brown can do.

Brown got so much better this season...in very category...that it's remarkable. His handle improved mightily but still has room for improvement. Same with his 3 pt. shooting, passing, defense, everything. More than anything (like Tatum) he needs to learn to finish better at the basket. But he's 21 and if his 3rd season jump is anything like it was this past year...look out.
But Saric is a player, I'm pretty sure of that. Plays his height and I really like his shooting, versatility and overall game. He will also improve.
Point of this whole thing was not unlike a "what's wrong with this picture?" when Fultz's name was included in trade talks along with Tatum, Saric and Brown. Not permanently writing off Markelle at all but until we see essentially a complete 180 from last season he's a complete mystery with little or no value.
And if Philly drafts a PG at #10 in a couple weeks, well....