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WaDe03
05-17-2018, 12:18 PM
Here are my top 25 players ever, in order. I base my all time list off of 5 different categories....Championships, peak, playoff performance, longevity, and era. Feel free to post yours or critique mine, Iím interested to see how much some of ours differ and why.

1. Jordan
2. LeBron
3. KAJ
4. Magic
5. Bird
6. Shaq
7. Wilt
8. Duncan
9. Kobe
10. Hakeem
11. Russell
12. Moses
13. Wade
14. Oscar
15. Malone
16. Dr. J
17. West
18. Dirk
19. KG
20. Barkley
21. Elgin
22. Isiah
23. Durant
24. Pippen
25. Curry

GREATNESS ONE
05-17-2018, 12:28 PM
Lolz looks pretty close to me

Chronz
05-17-2018, 12:49 PM
Yeah but they get hoes and have lots of money so your opinion is invalid

Oakmont_4
05-17-2018, 01:10 PM
1. Jordan
2. LeBron
3. KAJ
4. Magic
5. Bird

Pretty undeniable at this point. Anyone who doesn't have these 5 here, I wouldn't bother reading the rest.


6. Shaq
7. Wilt
8. Duncan
9. Kobe
10. Hakeem

Also correct


11. Russell
12. Moses
13. Wade - lol
14. Oscar
15. Malone

Here's where you start to go off the rails.

11. Russell
12. Moses
13. Oscar
14. Dr. J
15. West



16. Dr. J
17. West
18. Dirk
19. KG
20. Barkley

16. Robinson
17. Malone
18. Garnett
19. Barkley
20. Wade



21. Elgin
22. Isiah
23. Durant
24. Pippen
25. Curry

21. Dirk
22. Isiah
23. Pippen
24. Durant
25. Stockton

WaDe03
05-17-2018, 01:14 PM
Actually forgot about Robinson and Stockton so thatís my bad.

Wade is better than Oscar Dr. J West (better peak, won more, far better era) Malone and Barkley (never won)

Your list is pretty good though, seems we have majority of the same players. Iím not sure where I would slide Robinson in.

europagnpilgrim
05-17-2018, 01:14 PM
Here are my top 25 players ever, in order. I base my all time list off of 5 different categories....Championships, peak, playoff performance, longevity, and era. Feel free to post yours or critique mine, Iím interested to see how much some of ours differ and why.

1. Jordan
2. LeBron
3. KAJ
4. Magic
5. Bird
6. Shaq
7. Wilt
8. Duncan
9. Kobe
10. Hakeem
11. Russell
12. Moses
13. Wade
14. Oscar
15. Malone
16. Dr. J
17. West
18. Dirk
19. KG
20. Barkley
21. Elgin
22. Isiah
23. Durant
24. Pippen
25. Curry

be honestly real with your self, you wouldn't draft those players in that order coming out of college / HS, there is not way on any bball planet where any GM / Owner / casual or fanatic follower / scout / farm worker / college student / technician etc. would select Wilt 7th overall in nba history starting a team from scratch

your categories are cute and all but Bird is not a player I would draft 5th overall in nba history, not even close

WaDe03
05-17-2018, 01:16 PM
be honestly real with your self, you wouldn't draft those players in that order coming out of college / HS, there is not way on any bball planet where any GM / Owner / casual or fanatic follower / scout / farm worker / college student / technician etc. would select Wilt 7th overall in nba history starting a team from scratch

your categories are cute and all but Bird is not a player I would draft 5th overall in nba history, not even close

Wilt played against a bunch of scrubs, I donít have a problem with him being anywhere from 4-9 but any higher than that is wrong.

mrblisterdundee
05-17-2018, 01:18 PM
Yay; another thinly veiled excuse to take a ride on Wade's dick.

WaDe03
05-17-2018, 01:21 PM
Yay; another thinly veiled excuse to take a ride on Wade's dick.

Because heís on my top 25? Get out of here clown

Oakmont_4
05-17-2018, 01:25 PM
Actually forgot about Robinson and Stockton so thatís my bad.

Wade is better than Oscar Dr. J West (better peak, won more, far better era) Malone and Barkley (never won)

Your list is pretty good though, seems we have majority of the same players. Iím not sure where I would slide Robinson in.

The thing Wade has going against him is the other players of his era. Oscar Dr. J and West were icons of their eras. West is the damn NBA icon. Their careers were just as solid for their time as Wades is for his. But Wade ranks further down against the other players around him. Malone and Barkley may have never won but we just as dominant and for just as long as Wade. Both averaged over 20ppg for 10+ straight seasons. Wade didn't.

When it comes down to it...I can't say Dwayne Wade - top 15 all time. Because he just wasn't. Few others would say he is either.

WaDe03
05-17-2018, 01:26 PM
The thing Wade has going against him is the other players of his era. Oscar Dr. J and West were icons of their eras. West is the damn NBA icon. Their careers were just as solid for their time as Wades is for his. But Wade ranks further down against the other players around him. Malone and Barkley may have never won but we just as dominant and for just as long as Wade. Both averaged over 20ppg for 10+ straight seasons. Wade didn't.

When it comes down to it...I can't say Dwayne Wade - top 15 all time. Because he just wasn't. Few others would say he is either.

I can respect that, everyone ranks their lists differently with different reasoning. I just canít take those guys over a guy who was great on both sides, played in one of the best eras, one of the greatest/clutchest big game performers ever, who has 3 championships.

Oakmont_4
05-17-2018, 01:29 PM
I can respect that, everyone ranks their lists differently with different reasoning. I just canít take those guys over a guy who was great on both sides, played in one of the best eras, one of the greatest/clutchest big game performers ever, who has 3 championships.

2 of those championships were with a top 2 all time player. Pippen gets docked for playing with MJ...Wade should also get docked for playing next to LBJ. I also don't rank the era as one of the best. It's like 3rd best in my book.

WaDe03
05-17-2018, 01:30 PM
2 of those championships were with a top 2 all time player. Pippen gets docked for playing with MJ...Wade should also get docked for playing next to LBJ. I also don't rank the era as one of the best. It's like 3rd best in my book.

What eras are better? His era was better than Dr J West and Oscar for sure. One of his rings came in the 2nd greatest finals performance ever behind LeBron in 2016 as well.

Oakmont_4
05-17-2018, 01:36 PM
What eras are better? His era was better than Dr J West and Oscar for sure. One of his rings came in the 2nd greatest finals performance ever behind LeBron in 2016 as well.

I'm partial to the 1980's era and the 1990's era of ball over the 2000's and 2010's.

That's all well and good. But I he doesn't play next to LBJ does he have 3 ships? Highly doubtful. If Pippen doesn't play with MJ does he have 6? Or any even? Has to be accounted for in this equation.

WaDe03
05-17-2018, 01:37 PM
I'm partial to the 1980's era and the 1990's era of ball over the 2000's and 2010's.

That's all well and good. But I he doesn't play next to LBJ does he have 3 ships? Highly doubtful. If Pippen doesn't play with MJ does he have 6? Or any even? Has to be accounted for in this equation.

Possibly not but if they got a different big name free agent instead of LeBron that year they probably beat the Mavs as long as his replacement doesnít choke (another finals MVP for Wade) and after that who knows? LBJ also never won until he got with Wade.

mightybosstone
05-17-2018, 01:38 PM
Here are my top 25 players ever, in order. I base my all time list off of 5 different categories....Championships, peak, playoff performance, longevity, and era. Feel free to post yours or critique mine, Iím interested to see how much some of ours differ and why.

1. Jordan
2. LeBron
3. KAJ
4. Magic
5. Bird
6. Shaq
7. Wilt
8. Duncan
9. Kobe
10. Hakeem
11. Russell
So this is definitely the right top 11 guys. Any decent list I've seen over the last few years has these 11 guys, and I'm not sure there's a strong enough case to be made for anyone to top any of these 11 guys at this point. However, I completely disagree with the poster who said the top 5 should be locks.

For me, the top 3 is spot on. Those are the top three guys, and I see little reason to justify putting anyone ahead of them. But I think how you value longevity and peak performance really matters for the next few guys on the list.

Personally, I always think Magic and Bird get crazy overrated. Their peaks and primes were very good, they won titles and were critical to the growth of the NBA in the 80s. However, their primes were also really short and their overall careers were really short by the standards of other guys in this top 11. For those reasons and for the fact that their peaks aren't spectacular enough to separate them from the group, they usually fall closer to the 8-10 range for me.

I'd put Wilt, Duncan, Shaq and Hakeem in some order, ahead of those two, typically with Russell and Kobe right behind them.


12. Moses
13. Wade
14. Oscar
15. Malone
16. Dr. J
17. West
18. Dirk
19. KG
20. Barkley
So this is another case where I think you have the right set of guys, generally, but I'd probably go with a different order. I'd put Moses, Oscar and West toward the top. And, I'm sorry, but Wade is way too high here. His peak was great, but it was criminally short when compared with other guys in this group. His three titles are nice, but the fact that two came as a No. 2, and he was a shell of himself by the time he earned that third one knocks him down a few points for me.

I'd put Wade in the same group with Dr. J, KG, Dirk and Barkley, as well as Robinson, who you somehow left off this list. What's your justification for Robinson not being in the top 25? And the one guy I obviously would not put in my top 20 is Karl Malone. I hate him, and he's the bane of my existence. (But there's also that whole "massive playoff choker" thing that doesn't exactly help him in these conversations either.)


21. Elgin
22. Isiah
23. Durant
24. Pippen
25. Curry
This is where you lose me a bit. I do think Pippen deserves to be in this conversation, and Durant and Curry have done enough to be here as well. Hell, I might put Durant in my top 20. You can't tell me that Dr. J is a better player at his peak than Durant. He simply isn't.

But Elgin Baylor is crazy overrated for me. He has a decent 4-5 year peak in terms of advanced stats in the early 60s when everybody sucked, but then his numbers drastically fell off to being totally pedestrian. Oh yeah, and then there's the 0-8 Finals record. I'd feel better about Zeke being here, but his advanced stats are atrocious as well. Personally, I'd rather put Chris Paul here or McHale or Stockton (despite my hatred of him). Or if you wanted to go with a 60s-70s guy, Havlicek was a far superior player to Baylor, IMO.

Those are just my takes, though. I recognize that there's a lot of wiggle room in these conversations, and everybody is entitled to their opinions. Overall, it's a pretty solid list, sir.

WaDe03
05-17-2018, 01:43 PM
So this is definitely the right top 11 guys. Any decent list I've seen over the last few years has these 11 guys, and I'm not sure there's a strong enough case to be made for anyone to top any of these 11 guys at this point. However, I completely disagree with the poster who said the top 5 should be locks.

For me, the top 3 is spot on. Those are the top three guys, and I see little reason to justify putting anyone ahead of them. But I think how you value longevity and peak performance really matters for the next few guys on the list.

Personally, I always think Magic and Bird get crazy overrated. Their peaks and primes were very good, they won titles and were critical to the growth of the NBA in the 80s. However, their primes were also really short and their overall careers were really short by the standards of other guys in this top 11. For those reasons and for the fact that their peaks aren't spectacular enough to separate them from the group, they usually fall closer to the 8-10 range for me.

I'd put Wilt, Duncan, Shaq and Hakeem in some order, ahead of those two, typically with Russell and Kobe right behind them.


So this is another case where I think you have the right set of guys, generally, but I'd probably go with a different order. I'd put Moses, Oscar and West toward the top. And, I'm sorry, but Wade is way too high here. His peak was great, but it was criminally short when compared with other guys in this group. His three titles are nice, but the fact that two came as a No. 2, and he was a shell of himself by the time he earned that third one knocks him down a few points for me.

I'd put Wade in the same group with Dr. J, KG, Dirk and Barkley, as well as Robinson, who you somehow left off this list. What's your justification for Robinson not being in the top 25? And the one guy I obviously would not put in my top 20 is Karl Malone. I hate him, and he's the bane of my existence. (But there's also that whole "massive playoff choker" thing that doesn't exactly help him in these conversations either.)


This is where you lose me a bit. I do think Pippen deserves to be in this conversation, and Durant and Curry have done enough to be here as well. Hell, I might put Durant in my top 20. You can't tell me that Dr. J is a better player at his peak than Durant. He simply isn't.

But Elgin Baylor is crazy overrated for me. He has a decent 4-5 year peak in terms of advanced stats in the early 60s when everybody sucked, but then his numbers drastically fell off to being totally pedestrian. Oh yeah, and then there's the 0-8 Finals record. I'd feel better about Zeke being here, but his advanced stats are atrocious as well. Personally, I'd rather put Chris Paul here or McHale or Stockton (despite my hatred of him). Or if you wanted to go with a 60s-70s guy, Havlicek was a far superior player to Baylor, IMO.

Those are just my takes, though. I recognize that there's a lot of wiggle room in these conversations, and everybody is entitled to their opinions. Overall, it's a pretty solid list, sir.

Thank you sir, good explanations. Itís gets to a point in some areas where itís very hard to put one guy over the other so you just try and make sure the grouping is at least right. Like 4-11 Iíve seen in many different orders.

I forgot Robinson by accident, not sure where exactly I would drop him in but that more than likely bumps Curry off my list.

mrblisterdundee
05-17-2018, 01:45 PM
Because heís on my top 25? Get out of here clown

Because he's in your top 15, about the only list in the world where he ranks that high all-time. I'll get out of here now ó left some lube on the counter, in case it gets a bit dry.

WaDe03
05-17-2018, 01:49 PM
Thereís 2 players in history with as many points, rebounds, assists, blocks, steals, all star games, and Championships as Wade - Jordan and LeBron

Thereís 2 guards in NBA history who have finished top 3 in MVP and DPOY - Wade and Jordan

Wade has the peak, accomplishments, numbers, era, etc on his side so I feel good about where I ranked him. Iím not going to derail with strictly Wade debate though, I made this list because I was bored and wanted to see what others thought of my list and how they ranked guys.

WaDe03
05-17-2018, 01:50 PM
Because he's in your top 15, about the only list in the world where he ranks that high all-time. I'll get out of here now ó left some lube on the counter, in case it gets a bit dry.

Donít you think Clyde is better? Your opinion is irrelevant.

Iíve seen him listed multiple times from 15-17, sorry Iím taking him over the old guys who played in weak eras and still didnít win as much as him.

WaDe03
05-17-2018, 01:52 PM
And MBT I agree on your take about the top 11, I donít think Iíve ever seen a list that doesnít have those 11 guys listed at the top.

mightybosstone
05-17-2018, 02:01 PM
For the record, my list (which is constantly changing and totally off the top of my head) probably looks something like this:

1. Jordan
2. Lebron
3. Kareem
4. Wilt
5. Shaq
6. Hakeem
7. Duncan
8. Magic
9. Bird
10. Russell
11. Kobe
12. Moses
13. Oscar
14. West
15. Robinson
16. KG
17. Barkley
18. Dirk
19. Wade
20. Durant
21. Dr. J
22. CP3
23. Curry
24. Malone (:puke:)
25. Pippen

WaDe03
05-17-2018, 02:04 PM
Why do you hate Malone so much lol?

Driven
05-17-2018, 02:13 PM
The Jazz were the Rockets enemy in the 90s

mightybosstone
05-17-2018, 02:16 PM
Why do you hate Malone so much lol?

He was like the villain of my childhood. I adored Hakeem and the Rockets when I was a kid, and the Jazz were easily their biggest rivals of that era, with Malone being their best player. Kobe was that guy for me in the 2000s, but whereas I grew up and matured with him to the point where I grew to respect him over time, I've pretty much just always loathed Malone.

numba1CHANGsta
05-17-2018, 02:19 PM
You can't ever rank players correctly due to them playing in different era's especially Russell who at the time played in a league with lesser teams. Top 11 is correct but there will never be a right order other than #1 which belongs to MJ.

WaDe03
05-17-2018, 02:21 PM
He was like the villain of my childhood. I adored Hakeem and the Rockets when I was a kid, and the Jazz were easily their biggest rivals of that era, with Malone being their best player. Kobe was that guy for me in the 2000s, but whereas I grew up and matured with him to the point where I grew to respect him over time, I've pretty much just always loathed Malone.

Haha thatís understandable. I used to hate LeBron and Kobe but love them now.

WaDe03
05-17-2018, 02:21 PM
Lebron at #2 must be the new joke in town.

I think the top 3 is pretty much set in stone to be honest.

NYKalltheway
05-17-2018, 02:22 PM
Lebron at #2 must be the new joke in town.

WaDe03
05-17-2018, 02:24 PM
You can't ever rank players correctly due to them playing in different era's especially Russell who at the time played in a league with lesser teams. Top 11 is correct but there will never be a right order other than #1 which belongs to MJ.

Yea era is the hardest thing to guage imo. If you put LeBron in Russellís era I feel like he would average a 40 point triple double.

kdspurman
05-17-2018, 02:25 PM
He was like the villain of my childhood. I adored Hakeem and the Rockets when I was a kid, and the Jazz were easily their biggest rivals of that era, with Malone being their best player. Kobe was that guy for me in the 2000s, but whereas I grew up and matured with him to the point where I grew to respect him over time, I've pretty much just always loathed Malone.

I felt the same about Malone growing up. Screw that guy. Kobe too actually. (though like you, I started appreciating Kobe and became a fan later on) We shared common enemies

mightybosstone
05-17-2018, 02:29 PM
Lebron at #2 must be the new joke in town.

C'mon man. I get that some people aren't fans of the guy, but you have to be able to at least look at his resume and go "OK, he's not in my top 2, but I understand why other people think that way." Some people have Kobe in their top 5-7. Personally, I think that's way too high, but I an at least understand the case for him to be ranked at that spot.

NYKalltheway
05-17-2018, 02:29 PM
I felt the same about Malone growing up. Screw that guy. Kobe too actually. (though like you, I started appreciating Kobe and became a fan later on) We shared common enemies

It had to be Michael Jordan... And Reggie Miller!

NYKalltheway
05-17-2018, 02:31 PM
C'mon man. I get that some people aren't fans of the guy, but you have to be able to at least look at his resume and go "OK, he's not in my top 2, but I understand why other people think that way." Some people have Kobe in their top 5-7. Personally, I think that's way too high, but I an at least understand the case for him to be ranked at that spot.

See, that's the problem. There's no such thing as "resume" in basketball. It's a sport. You watch sports, you judge sports. There's no individual "resume". There's a bigger stage, a smaller stage and more intense competition at any stage. That's about it. The second biggest achievement a player can get is when people go "I want that guy in my team". The biggest is "I don't wanna play against that guy". Lebron was the guy that everyone against him wanted to see him have the ball for 95% of his career at crucial moments. So, please, don't tell me that he has a resume that's worth looking at. When it comes to all time basketball.

I don't care that people decided to stop caring about the sport and just want to eat what the media feeds them. Lebron is not a top 10 player, being listed at #2 is hilarious though. Kobe is not a top 10 player either. People really wanted to persuade the world that he was top 5 by 2010 or something. Stop eating media crap please :)

WaDe03
05-17-2018, 02:31 PM
See, that's the problem. There's no such thing as "resume" in basketball. It's a sport. You watch sports, you judge sports. There's no individual "resume". There's a bigger stage, a smaller stage and more intense competition at any stage. That's about it.

I don't care that people decided to stop caring about the sport and just want to eat what the media feeds them. Lebron is not a top 10 player, being listed at #2 is hilarious though. Kobe is not a top 10 player either. People really wanted to persuade the world that he was top 5 by 2010 or something. Stop eating media crap please :)

Iím very curious to see your top 25 if thatís how you really feel.

mightybosstone
05-17-2018, 02:35 PM
See, that's the problem. There's no such thing as "resume" in basketball. It's a sport. You watch sports, you judge sports. There's no individual "resume". There's a bigger stage, a smaller stage and more intense competition at any stage. That's about it.

I don't care that people decided to stop caring about the sport and just want to eat what the media feeds them. Lebron is not a top 10 player, being listed at #2 is hilarious though. Kobe is not a top 10 player either. People really wanted to persuade the world that he was top 5 by 2010 or something. Stop eating media crap please :)

I consume very little that's fed to me from the media. I use my eyes and my brain to judge athletes. And you and I both know there's absolutely a "resume" when it comes to judging athletes in all-time conversations. It's peak statistical dominance, overall versatility, dominance of his era, postseason production, titles, accolades, etc. You can call it whatever you like, but that stuff matters.

If all we ever did was judge players off our memories of them in the games we watched, how reliable would that be? You'd be judging players you haven't watched live for 10, 20, 30, 40+ years! That's completely unreliable. You have to use something other than your memory and the eye test to judge guys in conversations like these or you're not going to get a fair, unbiased assessment.

kdspurman
05-17-2018, 02:36 PM
It had to be Michael Jordan... And Reggie Miller!

Growing up in NYC I rooted for the Knicks (after the Spurs) I def get that lol. Especially Reggie

mightybosstone
05-17-2018, 02:38 PM
I felt the same about Malone growing up. Screw that guy. Kobe too actually. (though like you, I started appreciating Kobe and became a fan later on) We shared common enemies

Yeah, I'm glad we can just sweep all of that Houston/San Antonio hate from the last 20 years under the rug and both appreciate how much Karl Malone sucks for a second. :hi5:

I'm curious, though, did you feel that same way about Hakeem, too? Because Robinson was high on that list of guys for me as well during the 90s. And Duncan and Dirk were right behind Kobe for me in the 2000s.

Oakmont_4
05-17-2018, 02:46 PM
Personally, I always think Magic and Bird get crazy overrated. Their peaks and primes were very good, they won titles and were critical to the growth of the NBA in the 80s. However, their primes were also really short and their overall careers were really short by the standards of other guys in this top 11. For those reasons and for the fact that their peaks aren't spectacular enough to separate them from the group, they usually fall closer to the 8-10 range for me.

I'd put Wilt, Duncan, Shaq and Hakeem in some order, ahead of those two, typically with Russell and Kobe right behind them.

Careers shorter. Yes. Peaks, I disagree.

Here's each of those players peaks and I took the 8 best consecutive seasons for all and got their averages. I'm throwing Wilt out because his stats are insanely inflated because he played in a garbage area. He can't be top 5 just for that. But he gets top 10 because his stats are just so absurd.

Hakeem 88/89-95/96 25.5PPG 12.7RPG 3.0APG FG.512 3P .202 FT .712 - 2 Titles 589 games
Shaquill 95/96-02/03 27.7PPG 11.8RPG 3.0APG FG.582 3P.045 FT .527 - 3 Titles 501 games
Duncan 97/98-04/05 25.7PPG 13.9RPG 3.6APG FG .506 3P.179 FT .696 - 3 Titles 513 games

Bird 80/81-87/88 29.2PPG 11.7RPG 7.3APG FG.496 3P.376 FT .886 - 3 Titles 550 games
Magic 83/84-90/91 20.4PPG 6.7RPG 12.6APG FG.520 3P .303 FT .848 - 5 Titles 603 games

This is 8 year spans for each players peak of their careers. Magic and Bird clearly separate themselves. They both played more games than Duncan and Shaq in that time span. Bird was the top scorer and nearly rebounded as much as Duncan did at PF/C. A full 4 more APG. He didn't need to be taken out at the end of games in key moments (like Shaq). He had massive playoff performances throughout this span. He won as many titles as both Shaq and Duncan in their primes (more than Hakeem).

Magic won more than anyone on this list. Played more games than anyone on this list. Wasn't as big a scorer but for a PG he was grabbing 6.7 boards and dishing 12.6 assists. his FG% is just as good as any of the bigs you want to place over him.

The only thing counting against both Bird and Magic to these other guys are the lack of seasons outside their peak 8. To which Magic only has 1 and Bird only has 5 (which were also damn good). There was no latching on in the twig lights of their careers seeing their career averages drop in half like with the others. I don't see why it even matters. Bird and Magic accomplished just as much if not more in less time. That should be a plus not a negative.

Bird to Hakeem - Bird has 3.7 more points. 1 less rebound. 4.3 more assists and more titles
Bird to Shaq - Bird has 2 more points. Same rebounds. 4.3 more assists and same amount of titles
Bird to Duncan- Bird has more 3.5 more points. 2 less rebounds. 3.5 more assists and same amount of titles

NYKalltheway
05-17-2018, 02:47 PM
Iím very curious to see your top 25 if thatís how you really feel.

Top 5 is Michael Jordan, Magic Johnson, Kareem, Larry Bird and Shaq.

You then have the likes of Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain, Moses Malone, Hakeem Olajuwon, Oscar Robertson, Tim Duncan, Julius Erving and Jerry West that need to be considered in the next spots.

There's no such thing as a top 25. Most of these players are great and all you have to show for it is their career path, which could have been brought a completely different outcome. People pay attention to all the wrong things when it comes to judging players. They're not really comparing players, they're just stating who they feel has had the best situation in his career...

MBT, nobody suggested judging based on memory and live television.

kdspurman
05-17-2018, 02:51 PM
Yeah, I'm glad we can just sweep all of that Houston/San Antonio hate from the last 20 years under the rug and both appreciate how much Karl Malone sucks for a second. :hi5:

I'm curious, though, did you feel that same way about Hakeem, too? Because Robinson was high on that list of guys for me as well during the 90s. And Duncan and Dirk were right behind Kobe for me in the 2000s.

Hakeem, I hated him for what he did to us in 95... But never got to Malone level hate. He was a division rival that I routed against. Harden is higher on my list than Dream ever was tbh

europagnpilgrim
05-17-2018, 03:55 PM
Wilt played against a bunch of scrubs, I donít have a problem with him being anywhere from 4-9 but any higher than that is wrong.

Every player in every era played against, scrubs, its more volume of scrubs right now, being a high jumper doesn't equate to being a special dominant player

quick question, after Jordan who was the 2nd and 3rd best SG's in the entire NBA? Jordan was being guarded by Ehlo / Starks / Wilkins(not Nique,his bro) / Majerle / D Rivers, I mean for the most part those were scrubs with the task of guarding Jordan, Rivers and Starks / Wilkins were scrappy defenders but that doesn't mean much, Jerry Sloan was scrappy as hell and Duncan / Barkley etc. would destroy those style of defenders

even your boy Wade was being guarded by scrubs in his 06' Finals, Devin Harris and Marquis Daniels, Shaq was being guarded by the scrub Dampier in the same series, c'mon you would have to know this speaking on behalf of those 'scrubs' Wilt played against, like I said always look on both sides of the coin, its nothing new under the sun

so whats worse, playing against 7 other team with scrubs or against 29 other teams with scrubs?

if you would draft Wilt anywhere from 4 - 9 you would be equally incompetent as to Cavs drafting Bennett first overall or Sixers drafting Bradley that high

I would tell you to StandDown but you just committed GM suicide choosing the most dominant player ever in the 4 - 9 range

you would make a great stat keeper I would imagine

europagnpilgrim
05-17-2018, 04:00 PM
Careers shorter. Yes. Peaks, I disagree.

Here's each of those players peaks and I took the 8 best consecutive seasons for all and got their averages. I'm throwing Wilt out because his stats are insanely inflated because he played in a garbage area. He can't be top 5 just for that. But he gets top 10 because his stats are just so absurd.

Hakeem 88/89-95/96 25.5PPG 12.7RPG 3.0APG FG.512 3P .202 FT .712 - 2 Titles 589 games
Shaquill 95/96-02/03 27.7PPG 11.8RPG 3.0APG FG.582 3P.045 FT .527 - 3 Titles 501 games
Duncan 97/98-04/05 25.7PPG 13.9RPG 3.6APG FG .506 3P.179 FT .696 - 3 Titles 513 games

Bird 80/81-87/88 29.2PPG 11.7RPG 7.3APG FG.496 3P.376 FT .886 - 3 Titles 550 games
Magic 83/84-90/91 20.4PPG 6.7RPG 12.6APG FG.520 3P .303 FT .848 - 5 Titles 603 games

This is 8 year spans for each players peak of their careers. Magic and Bird clearly separate themselves. They both played more games than Duncan and Shaq in that time span. Bird was the top scorer and nearly rebounded as much as Duncan did at PF/C. A full 4 more APG. He didn't need to be taken out at the end of games in key moments (like Shaq). He had massive playoff performances throughout this span. He won as many titles as both Shaq and Duncan in their primes (more than Hakeem).

Magic won more than anyone on this list. Played more games than anyone on this list. Wasn't as big a scorer but for a PG he was grabbing 6.7 boards and dishing 12.6 assists. his FG% is just as good as any of the bigs you want to place over him.

The only thing counting against both Bird and Magic to these other guys are the lack of seasons outside their peak 8. To which Magic only has 1 and Bird only has 5 (which were also damn good). There was no latching on in the twig lights of their careers seeing their career averages drop in half like with the others. I don't see why it even matters. Bird and Magic accomplished just as much if not more in less time. That should be a plus not a negative.

Bird to Hakeem - Bird has 3.7 more points. 1 less rebound. 4.3 more assists and more titles
Bird to Shaq - Bird has 2 more points. Same rebounds. 4.3 more assists and same amount of titles
Bird to Duncan- Bird has more 3.5 more points. 2 less rebounds. 3.5 more assists and same amount of titles

Titles are team / owner based

for instance Magic said he would have went back to college had Bulls won coin toss to draft first, so Magic saw Bulls as non contender as opposed to Kareem / Lakers, and then they drafted Worthy 1st after I think either winning a title or making the Finals, who does that?

that's why I said who would you draft out of College / HS to build your team from scratch, you keep muddying the waters by adding titles and other cute stats to try and put this player over that player when to make it fair just go back to who they were pre nba and who would you select first

Who would you draft Bird or Duncan to start team? its really that simple

no one in their competent bball mind would draft Bird over Duncan or Shaq or Dream coming out of NCAA building a team from scratch

europagnpilgrim
05-17-2018, 04:08 PM
[/QUOTE]


Every player in every era played against, scrubs, its more volume of scrubs right now, being a high jumper doesn't equate to being a special dominant player

quick question, after Jordan who was the 2nd and 3rd best SG's in the entire NBA? Jordan was being guarded by Ehlo / Starks / Wilkins(not Nique,his bro) / Majerle / D Rivers, I mean for the most part those were scrubs with the task of guarding Jordan, Rivers and Starks / Wilkins were scrappy defenders but that doesn't mean much, Jerry Sloan was scrappy as hell and Duncan / Barkley etc. would destroy those style of defenders

even your boy Wade was being guarded by scrubs in his 06' Finals, Devin Harris and Marquis Daniels, Shaq was being guarded by the scrub Dampier in the same series, c'mon you would have to know this speaking on behalf of those 'scrubs' Wilt played against, like I said always look on both sides of the coin, its nothing new under the sun

so whats worse, playing against 7 other team with scrubs or against 29 other teams with scrubs?

if you would draft Wilt anywhere from 4 - 9 you would be equally incompetent as to Cavs drafting Bennett first overall or Sixers drafting Bradley that high

I would tell you to StandDown but you just committed GM suicide choosing the most dominant player ever in the 4 - 9 range

you would make a great stat keeper I would imagine

WaDe03
05-17-2018, 04:43 PM
Every player in every era played against, scrubs, its more volume of scrubs right now, being a high jumper doesn't equate to being a special dominant player

quick question, after Jordan who was the 2nd and 3rd best SG's in the entire NBA? Jordan was being guarded by Ehlo / Starks / Wilkins(not Nique,his bro) / Majerle / D Rivers, I mean for the most part those were scrubs with the task of guarding Jordan, Rivers and Starks / Wilkins were scrappy defenders but that doesn't mean much, Jerry Sloan was scrappy as hell and Duncan / Barkley etc. would destroy those style of defenders

even your boy Wade was being guarded by scrubs in his 06' Finals, Devin Harris and Marquis Daniels, Shaq was being guarded by the scrub Dampier in the same series, c'mon you would have to know this speaking on behalf of those 'scrubs' Wilt played against, like I said always look on both sides of the coin, its nothing new under the sun

so whats worse, playing against 7 other team with scrubs or against 29 other teams with scrubs?

if you would draft Wilt anywhere from 4 - 9 you would be equally incompetent as to Cavs drafting Bennett first overall or Sixers drafting Bradley that high

I would tell you to StandDown but you just committed GM suicide choosing the most dominant player ever in the 4 - 9 range

you would make a great stat keeper I would imagine

The scrubs of the league today are far more skilled and far better off physically than the midgets Wilt dominated. LeBron would average a 40 point triple double in that era.

Wade was guarded by Daniels and Howard, none of the Mavs you listed were scrubs.

WaDe03
05-17-2018, 04:45 PM
Top 5 is Michael Jordan, Magic Johnson, Kareem, Larry Bird and Shaq.

You then have the likes of Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain, Moses Malone, Hakeem Olajuwon, Oscar Robertson, Tim Duncan, Julius Erving and Jerry West that need to be considered in the next spots.

There's no such thing as a top 25. Most of these players are great and all you have to show for it is their career path, which could have been brought a completely different outcome. People pay attention to all the wrong things when it comes to judging players. They're not really comparing players, they're just stating who they feel has had the best situation in his career...

MBT, nobody suggested judging based on memory and live television.

So if you donít look at situation or career path at all youíre saying you judged strictly on the players skills and thatís it? If thatís the case how can LeBron and Kobe be so low on your list? LeBron is arguably the most skilled player ever.

NYKalltheway
05-17-2018, 04:52 PM
So if you donít look at situation or career path at all youíre saying you judged strictly on the players skills and thatís it? If thatís the case how can LeBron and Kobe be so low on your list? LeBron is arguably the most skilled player ever.


Lebron and skill? Come on, the guy learned how to post up in his early 30s and couldn't dribble properly until his late 20s :laugh2: Crab dribble :laugh: He's no scrub obviously, he's yet another all time great. But there's too many of those, he's not really that special in terms of basketball skill. 50 or 30 years ago he wouldn't exist, he's a product of modern science and nutrition.

Lebron is an athletic force. Whether he was playing basketball or in the NFL or in some 200m sprint, he'd still be well respected in that sport. He's more of an athlete than a basketball player. And that's why he will never be a real legend. On the other hand, Michael Jordan was one of the most sublime basketball players ever and he was also a top athlete. There's a vast difference between these two categories.

KnicksorBust
05-17-2018, 04:59 PM
You forgot Tmac.

KnicksorBust
05-17-2018, 05:01 PM
Just kidding. I think everyone agrees this list is pretty solid beside your Wade ranking. Nice work.

WaDe03
05-17-2018, 05:03 PM
Just kidding. I think everyone agrees this list is pretty solid beside your Wade ranking. Nice work.

Appreciate it, I stand strong on where I ranked Wade and feel very good about those I ranked him over.

WaDe03
05-17-2018, 05:03 PM
You forgot Tmac.

Must be why chronz was angry earlier

WaDe03
05-17-2018, 05:05 PM
Lebron and skill? Come on, the guy learned how to post up in his early 30s and couldn't dribble properly until his late 20s :laugh2: Crab dribble :laugh: He's no scrub obviously, he's yet another all time great. But there's too many of those, he's not really that special in terms of basketball skill. 50 or 30 years ago he wouldn't exist, he's a product of modern science and nutrition.

Lebron is an athletic force. Whether he was playing basketball or in the NFL or in some 200m sprint, he'd still be well respected in that sport. He's more of an athlete than a basketball player. And that's why he will never be a real legend. On the other hand, Michael Jordan was one of the most sublime basketball players ever and he was also a top athlete. There's a vast difference between these two categories.

Thereís nothing LeBron canít do though. Majority of the greats are ridiculously athletic mixed with skill. The guys who make it because of athleticism usually donít last long or fall off in college

europagnpilgrim
05-17-2018, 05:05 PM
The scrubs of the league today are far more skilled and far better off physically than the midgets Wilt dominated. LeBron would average a 40 point triple double in that era.

Wade was guarded by Daniels and Howard, none of the Mavs you listed were scrubs.

The scrubs are still scrubs, go look at the roster clutter of scrubs, on a nba roster and g league, like I said its way more in volume and since its more players it would be naturally more athletes but nobody today is better athlete than Wilt or Russell was, they were Olympic top apex flight athletes in the 60's, Wilt is considered to be the best / greatest athlete ever in any sport

did you just start watching ball in 2003? because placing Bron back then wouldn't be taking the advanced / better physical Bron back then, he would be basically Baylor / G Johnson(Wilt dislocated his shoulder from blocking his shot), G Johnson was said by those of his day to be the Bron of the nba, 255 - 260lbs all muscle, high riser, he dunked on Wilt previous time before Wilt sent him off on a stretcher

placing Bron back in that era would be no hyper chamber to soak his body, no 2million to spend on maintaining his body, back then I would say nutrition was better being more farmed / home grown as opposed to all the junk / hybrid foods on the market today that most athletes indulge in, Wilt was bench pressing 350lbs at 13yrs old, you got nba grown men right now today that cant do that, football players as well

you are underrating era's because they were all the same, just like some say the 60 - 70's was weakest era but has the most HOF, especially the so called ''midgets'' you claim Wilt was dominating, but once you go do the research you see the avg. guy guarding Wilt was Dwight / Dream height or taller, go do some homework on actual nba history, like where Dirk got his one foot fade or where Duncan got his 15 - 17ft bank shot, all from Wilt, who did it way back in the 60's, he had the skyhook as well just didn't do it as often as he did the turn around fadeaway or finger roll, Wilt was that skilled way back in the 60's so he would actually translate to being even more dominant because of the so called advanced nutrition / training today, which Wilt had back then in spades

Howard / Harris / Daniels were all babies / scrubs / wet behind the ears, Wade was at his apex so he should have dismantled those scrubs, and if you don't think Dampier was a scrub or a avg bench player forced to start then I don't know what ball you have been watching, or you just start watching ball when Wade got drafted

WaDe03
05-17-2018, 05:07 PM
The scrubs are still scrubs, go look at the roster clutter of scrubs, on a nba roster and g league, like I said its way more in volume and since its more players it would be naturally more athletes but nobody today is better athlete than Wilt or Russell was, they were Olympic top apex flight athletes in the 60's, Wilt is considered to be the best / greatest athlete ever in any sport

did you just start watching ball in 2003? because placing Bron back then wouldn't be taking the advanced / better physical Bron back then, he would be basically Baylor / G Johnson(Wilt dislocated his shoulder from blocking his shot), G Johnson was said by those of his day to be the Bron of the nba, 255 - 260lbs all muscle, high riser, he dunked on Wilt previous time before Wilt sent him off on a stretcher

Howard / Harris / Daniels were all babies / scrubs / wet behind the ears, Wade was at his apex so he should have dismantled those scrubs, and if you don't think Dampier was a scrub or a avg bench player forced to start then I don't know what ball you have been watching, or you just start watching ball when Wade got drafted

Josh Howard wouldíve been a monster back when wilt played.

Where would you rank Russell and Wilt, as they were, if they were playing in the nba today?

WaDe03
05-17-2018, 05:18 PM
no Howard wouldn't have, you keep taking a player from today and just blindly throwing him back in that era, it doesn't work like that, they would be on par with the skill / talent of that era, Wilt was just a whole diff type player, he was a literal Giant on the court

Russell would be a better athletic D Green with better defense, more so on the interior, 18 - 20rpg, 5 blocks, ultimate winner / team player, basically Rodman mixed with Green is what Russell would be today

Wilt would be what I said he would be, the most dominating player ever

just think about the 40pt triple doubles Bron is getting now

now imagine 60+pts, 20 - 40rebounds, 12 - 25 blocks, 10 dimes, 5 - 10 steals

nobody dominated the stats like Wilt, and they did him injustice by not keeping track of blocks in his day or he would have doubled up Dream

Get the hell out of here lmao!! Wilt would be prime Dwight at best

europagnpilgrim
05-17-2018, 05:18 PM
Josh Howard wouldíve been a monster back when wilt played.

Where would you rank Russell and Wilt, as they were, if they were playing in the nba today?

no Howard wouldn't have, you keep taking a player from today and just blindly throwing him back in that era, it doesn't work like that, they would be on par with the skill / talent of that era, Wilt was just a whole diff type player, he was a literal Giant on the court

Russell would be a better athletic D Green with better defense, more so on the interior, 18 - 20rpg, 5 blocks, ultimate winner / team player, basically Rodman mixed with Green is what Russell would be today

Wilt would be what I said he would be, the most dominating player ever

just think about the 40pt triple doubles Bron is getting now

now imagine 60+pts, 20 - 40rebounds, 12 - 25 blocks, 10 dimes, 5 - 10 steals

nobody dominated the stats like Wilt, and they did him injustice by not keeping track of blocks in his day or he would have doubled up Dream

europagnpilgrim
05-17-2018, 05:24 PM
Get the hell out of here lmao!! Wilt would be prime Dwight at best

Rebound and defense he would be like apex Howard, though 3x better

apex Wilt avg damn near 40ppg and 30 rpg as a rookie, get the hell out of here with this prime Dwight, prime Dwight is comparable to Ewing and Ewing was a way better offensive player, but don't disrespect Wilt like that ever again

you might as well have said a Prime Gasol, either one

Most dynamic athlete ever in any sport

https://youtu.be/FCRIB6ZBSA4

europagnpilgrim
05-17-2018, 05:29 PM
If you want to try and devalue Wilt numbers then I can do that for Bron and many others as well


like I said Jordan was being guarded by Ehlo / Starks / D Rivers / D Wilkins, scrubs or serviceable players,pick one, the other apex SGs were Richmond / Drexler who both played out West so they saw Jordan twice out of 82 game season, Jordan feasted on scrubs

Bron is being guarded by OG and other baby players of the game and little small ball players, every time I turn around he is being guarded by a midget / scrub defender, KD is the only SF that can be remotely close to Bron, and we all hear about how the East has been a joke past odd number of years, meaning Bron has feasted on scrubs, and its so weak on SF talent out East that dare I say Bron strongest competition is G Hayward, really Hayward as competiton for Bron or Otto porter jr. or J Brown or Pistons SF or baby GreekFreak or Bulls SF or Badgonavic or Thad Young or who ever else you can think of in the gauntlet of SF's in the beast known as the 'least'? child please miss me with this scrubs talk because it covers all eras

only time worth watching a defender on Bron is Leonard, a good team defense like Warriors / old spurs scheme

you are living in the moment as a blind witness to the rise of better jumping athletes, but they lack the passion / heart / skill of those golden years where the competition trumped the brand / partying

Dawkins was shattering backboards back in the day but you would sware Shaq was the first to do it based on your limited knowledge on this topic at hand

europagnpilgrim
05-17-2018, 06:27 PM
Thereís nothing LeBron canít do though. Majority of the greats are ridiculously athletic mixed with skill. The guys who make it because of athleticism usually donít last long or fall off in college

it works both ways, some can be just skilled and not be athletic enough to make it like Leattner / Fredette and do good in college but I would always say they wouldn't translate in nba because they weren't athletic enough, when you equally combine the skill + athletic ability that's when you start talking about the most dominant players, or the apex level

its what made Wade / Iverson legends, they had both
its why centers like Jabbar / Wilt / DRob and others were super dominant in their time, they had both

europagnpilgrim
05-17-2018, 06:39 PM
Lebron and skill? Come on, the guy learned how to post up in his early 30s and couldn't dribble properly until his late 20s :laugh2: Crab dribble :laugh: He's no scrub obviously, he's yet another all time great. But there's too many of those, he's not really that special in terms of basketball skill. 50 or 30 years ago he wouldn't exist, he's a product of modern science and nutrition.

Lebron is an athletic force. Whether he was playing basketball or in the NFL or in some 200m sprint, he'd still be well respected in that sport. He's more of an athlete than a basketball player. And that's why he will never be a real legend. On the other hand, Michael Jordan was one of the most sublime basketball players ever and he was also a top athlete. There's a vast difference between these two categories.

are you comparing Bron handle to people his size or to PG / SG? just imagine if K Malone were asked to bring the ball up and facilitate, but Bron is doing that like Malone sidekick Stockton did, and his passing ''skill'' is Stockton or better level

couldn't dribble properly? dude is 6'8'' 255lbs not 5'10'' 155lbs like a Iverson

players usually post up more as they age and Bron came straight out of HS operating as a Magic / Kidd type player so his game was way more perimeter, open court train, usually a player on the wing ages and works on post game / footwork, Bron is no diff. but he didn't have the luxury of Jordan going to Dean University and learning the fundamentals of coaching / footwork etc., Bron was in the Finals at 22yrs old as a baby in 2nd post season appearance

Jordan was one of the perfect storm marketing campaigns ever and Bron is a remixed / recycled version, just bigger faster stronger but same number and he is the sole reason you hear Jordan name so much, they are using Bron to not only build up his rankings but make sure the media brainwashed GOAT in Jordan stays there as well, its such a blatant agenda and they have no problem of not hiding it daily on sports channels

Bron is a athletic skilled force, coming into the league his scouting report had him listed as having 25ft range on his shot, Bron just uses his size and athletic ablity against smaller players, I thought that was using high iq?

Lebron is the reincarnation of Jordan for the nba, I don't really see a difference at all until people start mentioning the dumb Finals / rings talk, Jordan is the original authentic and Bron is the authentic certified copy of the original, nothing more nor less

WaDe03
05-17-2018, 07:58 PM
Rebound and defense he would be like apex Howard, though 3x better

apex Wilt avg damn near 40ppg and 30 rpg as a rookie, get the hell out of here with this prime Dwight, prime Dwight is comparable to Ewing and Ewing was a way better offensive player, but don't disrespect Wilt like that ever again

you might as well have said a Prime Gasol, either one

Most dynamic athlete ever in any sport

https://youtu.be/FCRIB6ZBSA4

Wilt wouldnít have anywhere near those numbers in the nba today

papipapsmanny
05-17-2018, 09:26 PM
1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Lebron
4. Magic
5. Bird
6. The Dream
7. Shaq
8. Wilt
9. Duncan
10. Russell
11. Kobe
12. Moses
13. Oscar
14. Robinson (Admiral)
15. Barkley
16. Dr. J
17. Malone
18. West
19. Durant
20. Hayes
21. Wade
22. Wilkins
23. Pippen
24. Stockton
25. Drexler

Probably get some crap for people at the end of the list, but hey its my list

Chronz
05-17-2018, 09:37 PM
Lots of guys belong. I only know Iverson doesn't. Maybe top 80

Chronz
05-17-2018, 09:42 PM
Wilt played against a bunch of scrubs, I donít have a problem with him being anywhere from 4-9 but any higher than that is wrong.
Prove it

R. Johnson#3
05-17-2018, 10:51 PM
Wilt wouldnít have anywhere near those numbers in the nba today

Iím confident he could pull off 30/15 (probably more) in todayís NBA which is still unheard of. Wilt didnít play against ďmidgetsĒ the man was just a freak of nature. Have you ever seen the man move? Dude was 7í1 and could run the floor like Lebron.

Watch a Wilt documentary and just see what people say about him. John Havlicek tells a story of how he literally held on to Wiltís arm as Wilt lifted him and dunked the ball. Nobody can do that in todayís NBA. People are in awe over Lebronís athleticism but I think Wilts was way more impressive.

Oakmont_4
05-18-2018, 06:44 AM
Every player in every era played against, scrubs, its more volume of scrubs right now, being a high jumper doesn't equate to being a special dominant player

Not even close. Every decade the athletes get better. 80's-90's were peak competition wise. 2000's-2010's have featured the best athletes of all time - however the product on the floor is not as competitive as it was in the 80's-90's but still far exceeds anything pre 1980's.


quick question, after Jordan who was the 2nd and 3rd best SG's in the entire NBA? Jordan was being guarded by Ehlo / Starks / Wilkins(not Nique,his bro) / Majerle / D Rivers, I mean for the most part those were scrubs with the task of guarding Jordan, Rivers and Starks / Wilkins were scrappy defenders but that doesn't mean much, Jerry Sloan was scrappy as hell and Duncan / Barkley etc. would destroy those style of defenders

Sidney Moncreif
Alvin Robertson
Dan Majerle
Clyde Drexler
Joe Dumars
Latrell Spreewell
Eddie Jones

Certainly didn't match up against "scrubs".

You can't even compare the 60's game to todays. There wasn't even a 3pt line back then. Before 1966 zone defenses were allowed and a center like Wilt could literally plop himself in front of the hoop and make no attempt to even guard a player, just defend the rim. The game is completely different and has been changed in ways that make it impossible to dominate the game as an individual like Wilt did or as a team like the Celtics did.

JeniferWilliams
05-18-2018, 06:51 AM
I agree with your list it seems perfect but I guess here everyone has different thinking.

Driven
05-18-2018, 12:42 PM
The scrubs of the league today are far more skilled and far better off physically than the midgets Wilt dominated. LeBron would average a 40 point triple double in that era.

Wade was guarded by Daniels and Howard, none of the Mavs you listed were scrubs.

I think I would argue that Wilt playing against "scrubs" would make him more valuable and higher on the top players of all-time list.

The best way to compare players of different eras is to compare them versus their peers, and then compare the two players in question based on what value they had against their peers.

The game has developed over the years, as do they players and the athletes. Today's LeBron would have not been the same player in the 1960s. Wilt would not have been the same player if he were around today. You certainly can't go back in time and pretend that the plethora of 6'9" ultra-athletic swingman today can just be inserted in previous eras as is.

I've always thought that a guy like Kenny Smith would be fantastic in today's NBA. That doesn't make him any better than he was.

ewing
05-18-2018, 12:46 PM
People were critical of Pippen being on original the top 50 now he's top 25. That guy gets better with age!

mightybosstone
05-18-2018, 02:10 PM
Careers shorter. Yes. Peaks, I disagree.

Here's each of those players peaks and I took the 8 best consecutive seasons for all and got their averages. I'm throwing Wilt out because his stats are insanely inflated because he played in a garbage area. He can't be top 5 just for that. But he gets top 10 because his stats are just so absurd.

Hakeem 88/89-95/96 25.5PPG 12.7RPG 3.0APG FG.512 3P .202 FT .712 - 2 Titles 589 games
Shaquill 95/96-02/03 27.7PPG 11.8RPG 3.0APG FG.582 3P.045 FT .527 - 3 Titles 501 games
Duncan 97/98-04/05 25.7PPG 13.9RPG 3.6APG FG .506 3P.179 FT .696 - 3 Titles 513 games

Bird 80/81-87/88 29.2PPG 11.7RPG 7.3APG FG.496 3P.376 FT .886 - 3 Titles 550 games
Magic 83/84-90/91 20.4PPG 6.7RPG 12.6APG FG.520 3P .303 FT .848 - 5 Titles 603 games

This is 8 year spans for each players peak of their careers. Magic and Bird clearly separate themselves. They both played more games than Duncan and Shaq in that time span. Bird was the top scorer and nearly rebounded as much as Duncan did at PF/C. A full 4 more APG. He didn't need to be taken out at the end of games in key moments (like Shaq). He had massive playoff performances throughout this span. He won as many titles as both Shaq and Duncan in their primes (more than Hakeem).

Magic won more than anyone on this list. Played more games than anyone on this list. Wasn't as big a scorer but for a PG he was grabbing 6.7 boards and dishing 12.6 assists. his FG% is just as good as any of the bigs you want to place over him.

The only thing counting against both Bird and Magic to these other guys are the lack of seasons outside their peak 8. To which Magic only has 1 and Bird only has 5 (which were also damn good). There was no latching on in the twig lights of their careers seeing their career averages drop in half like with the others. I don't see why it even matters. Bird and Magic accomplished just as much if not more in less time. That should be a plus not a negative.

Bird to Hakeem - Bird has 3.7 more points. 1 less rebound. 4.3 more assists and more titles
Bird to Shaq - Bird has 2 more points. Same rebounds. 4.3 more assists and same amount of titles
Bird to Duncan- Bird has more 3.5 more points. 2 less rebounds. 3.5 more assists and same amount of titles

I misspoke. I should have said that Magic and Bird have shorter "primes," not "peaks." Also, you're looking solely at base stats and not advanced numbers, where guys like Shaq, Wilt and Duncan tend to have advantages over those two. Hakeem doesn't, but I tend to grant him some leniency in advanced numbers due to him being probably one of the five greatest defensive players in the history of the game. On that end of the floor, I'd give Shaq, Wilt and certainly Duncan an edge over Bird and Magic as well.

Oakmont_4
05-18-2018, 05:01 PM
I misspoke. I should have said that Magic and Bird have shorter "primes," not "peaks." Also, you're looking solely at base stats and not advanced numbers, where guys like Shaq, Wilt and Duncan tend to have advantages over those two. Hakeem doesn't, but I tend to grant him some leniency in advanced numbers due to him being probably one of the five greatest defensive players in the history of the game. On that end of the floor, I'd give Shaq, Wilt and certainly Duncan an edge over Bird and Magic as well.

What advanced stats are you looking at? They're all similar really...

VORP
79.7
77.4
89.3
74.0
77.1

BPM
7.2
7.2
5.5
5.0
4.9

PER
23.5
24.1
24.2
26.4
23.6

USG%
26.5
22.3
27.0
29.5
27.3

WS/48
.203
.225
.208
.209
.177

I wouldn't say any single player separates themselves with advanced metrics.

Jeffy25
05-18-2018, 05:38 PM
See, that's the problem. There's no such thing as "resume" in basketball. It's a sport. You watch sports, you judge sports. There's no individual "resume". There's a bigger stage, a smaller stage and more intense competition at any stage. That's about it. The second biggest achievement a player can get is when people go "I want that guy in my team". The biggest is "I don't wanna play against that guy". Lebron was the guy that everyone against him wanted to see him have the ball for 95% of his career at crucial moments. So, please, don't tell me that he has a resume that's worth looking at. When it comes to all time basketball.

I don't care that people decided to stop caring about the sport and just want to eat what the media feeds them. Lebron is not a top 10 player, being listed at #2 is hilarious though. Kobe is not a top 10 player either. People really wanted to persuade the world that he was top 5 by 2010 or something. Stop eating media crap please :)

That's because you think anyone who played after 2000 is worse than everyone who came before them.

europagnpilgrim
05-18-2018, 05:51 PM
Wilt wouldnít have anywhere near those numbers in the nba today

Jordan avg 28ppg as a rookie, Iverson avg almost 24ppg as a rookie, Shaq put up like 24ppg rookie, Bron 20ppg straight out of HS

So I am pretty damn sure Wilt would have put up more ppg as rookie than Jordan, in any era

so he would have been right on par, not exactly 40ppg and 30rpg, but in the 30ppg range and no doubt seeing that Drummond and young Howard could get 15 - 18rpg, Wilt would easily do that, we are talking about a athletic Giant who challenged pretty much every shot, had they kept tracks of blocks his totals would exceed 8k, he was just that dominant

had Wilt avg just 15ppg for his career you would be screaming what a big disappoint / waste of talent, but since he dominated and then went to better teams and did less shooting / scoring that makes him even worth more since most players who can still put up 30ppg wont change, Wilt could have easily avg 30ppg for those Lakers teams but he chose to reach more Finals in his Lakers years than to put up his gaudy numbers like first 7yrs of 40ppg, Wilt said if was all about just scoring he would have avg. 70ppg, each season

utter dominance, its like we are talking about a fairytale, PaulBunyan

europagnpilgrim
05-18-2018, 06:56 PM
Not even close. Every decade the athletes get better. 80's-90's were peak competition wise. 2000's-2010's have featured the best athletes of all time - however the product on the floor is not as competitive as it was in the 80's-90's but still far exceeds anything pre 1980's.






Sidney Moncreif
Alvin Robertson
Dan Majerle
Clyde Drexler
Joe Dumars
Latrell Spreewell
Eddie Jones

Certainly didn't match up against "scrubs".

You can't even compare the 60's game to todays. There wasn't even a 3pt line back then. Before 1966 zone defenses were allowed and a center like Wilt could literally plop himself in front of the hoop and make no attempt to even guard a player, just defend the rim. The game is completely different and has been changed in ways that make it impossible to dominate the game as an individual like Wilt did or as a team like the Celtics did.

out of a 30 team league that's all you could muster up? like really? I could mention more scrubs who Jordan went up against, especially come playoff time where they claim legends are made, Hornacek and Russell / S. Anderson in 98' Finals, scrubs

Majerle in 93' Finals watched Jordan go for like 42ppg, who else you going to count the midget KJ? KJ was no doubt legit but we are talking about defending Jordan and he doesn't qualify at all, who else was on that Suns roster besides Majerle to defend / put fear in Jordan? who was Lakers starting SG in 91' Finals? and who was the backup SG? Drexler in 92' Finals put up I think around 25ppg so he gave Jordan the biz but Jordan gave it to him more, that's legit competition for Jordan though, the Glove was legit but still undersized and outmatched but he played the best overall to me out of those players, the player who would have contained Jordan and gave him the most fits played with him and won 6 rings, Pippen


I never disputed the athletes more better, I stated its more total / volume more scrubs today due to number of teams and euro style players who are average or just spot shooters and bring nothing else to the table, they are everywhere on rosters, some even in street clothes and g league, euro players infested the league with flopping and teams are filled with scrubs, just go look at every team and see it for yourself, its a scrub league, top heavy superstars then falters off horribly after that

when you have players like Gobert / Adams / Lowry getting 100mill deals, Hardaway Jr. overpaid, Conley super duper over paid with like 150mill and I don't even know if he has made 1 all star game in what 10yrs? when Wiggins is getting 150 or so mill and McCollum getting basically 100mill and Bazemore getting like 96ish million then it is right on par to what I am saying, a league full of over paid scrubs, contract wise

don't forget to add Otto Porter and his damn near 100mill as a forced 3rd option but really a 4th - 7th option on legit title team, over paid scrub, don't forget players like Crabbe who signed for damn near 80mill, and Jackson from Detroit who signed for like 80mill, over paid scrubs, once again contract wise according to on court play / value / impact


Drexler was out West so he saw Jordan for a whopping 2x per season
Eddie Jones? really?
Joe Dumars really? solid player and defended Jordan well at times, along with that team defense he had in his back pocket

Moncrief / Robertson are ranked all time where? they were solid for sure and known for defense, nobody has in them in their top tier all time rankings list outside of Milwaukee

Majerle, really?

Sprewell was solid as well, but he wasn't stopping no Jordan nor was Jordan worried

so he had Dumars / Robertson / Moncrief to worry about for 9 - 12 games per year as his toughest competition according to you, Majerle / Jones / Drexler were out West so that was a total of 6 games

I will give you R Miller just to try and help you out that deep water

the competition was scrubs for most part, I am just pointing it out since someone on here was claiming Wilt went up against scrubs, and its far from the truth if you are looking at actual Position vs. Position, same with Bron, he has midgets / scrubs guarding him a lot during his run / era

I bet Wilt went up against more HOF'er at his Center position than Jordan did at his SG position and I am just guessing off top of my head, and I know for damn sure none of the HOF SG's Jordan went up against were on the level of Russell / Jabbar, Drexler was he closest and though he was a bad Phi Slamma Jamma man he still wasn't on the level of Russell / Jabbar, Facts

europagnpilgrim
05-18-2018, 07:24 PM
Lots of guys belong. I only know Iverson doesn't. Maybe top 80

You need to maybe start 'know - ing' more on who belongs and who doesn't, knowledge is key, just listen to your favorite players, listening is a skilled art

He is still your favorite players favorite player

ask your PointGod CP3
ask the most dominant player of his era, LBJ

Facts

TylerSL
05-18-2018, 08:30 PM
This is all entirely subjective, but your list isn't bad. This would be my list.

1. Michael Jordan-6 rings, 6 NBA Finals appearances 6 Finals MVPs, 5 league MVPs, 1 time DPOY, 10 scoring titles, 3 time steals leader, 14 All Star appearances, 3 All Star Game MVPs, 11 All NBA teams, 9 All Defensive teams, RoTY, 1 Olympic Gold Medal.

2. Lebron James*-3 rings, 8 NBA Finals appearances, 3 Finals MVPs, 4 league MVPs, 1 scoring title, 14 All Star appearances, 3 All Star Game MVPs, 13 All NBA teams, 6 All Defensive teams, RoTY, only player in history with 30,000/8,000/8,000, 2 Olympic Gold Medals, 1 Olympic Bronze Medal.

3. Tim Duncan-5 rings, 6 NBA Finals appearances, 3 Finals MVPs, 2 league MVPs, 15 All Star appearances, 1 All Star Game MVP, 15 All NBA teams, 15 All Defensive teams, RoTY, 1 Olympic Bronze Medal.

4. Kareem Abdul Jabbar-6 rings, 10 NBA Finals appearances, 2 Finals MVPs, 6 league MVPs, 19 All Star appearances, 15 All NBA teams, 11 All Defensive teams, #1 All Time points leader, 4 time blocks leader, 1 time rebounding champion, 2 scoring titles, RoTY.

5. Magic Johnson-5 rings, 7 NBA Finals appearances, 3 Finals MVPs, 3 league MVPs, 12 All Star appearances, 2 All Star Game MVPs, 10 All NBA teams, 4 time assists leader, 2 time steals leader, 1 Olympic Gold Medal.

6. Wilt Chamberlain- 2 rings, 6 NBA Finals appearances, 1 Finals MVP, 4 league MVPs, 13 All Star appearances, 1 All Star Game MVP, 10 All NBA teams, RoTY, won MVP and RoTY in same season, #1 All Time rebounds leader, holds many statistical records for per game basis, #1 All Time rebounder

7. Hakeem Olajuwon-2 rings, 2 NBA Finals Appearances, 2 Finals MVPs, 1 league MVP, 12 All Star Appearances, 12 All NBA teams, 9 All Defensive teams, 2 DPoY awards, 2 time rebounding leader, 3 time blocks leader, 1 Olympic Gold Medal.

8. Shaquille O'Neal-4 rings, 6 NBA Finals appearances, 3 Finals MVPs, 1 league MVP, 15 All Star appearances, 3 All Star Game MVPs, 14 All NBA teams, 3 All Defensive teams, 2 scoring titles, RoTY, 1 Olympic Gold Medal.

9. Larry Bird-3 rings, 5 NBA Finals appearances, 2 Finals MVPs, 3 league MVPs, 12 All Star appearances, 1 All Star Game MVP, 10 All NBA teams, 3 All Defensive teams, made the 50-40-90 club 2 times, RoTY, 1 Olympic Gold Medal.

10.Oscar Robertson-1 ring, 2 NBA Finals appearances, 1 league MVP, 12 All Star appearances, 3 All Star Game MVPs, 11 All NBA teams, 6 time assists leader, averaged a triple double in a season, All Time triple double leader, RoTY

11. Kobe Bryant-5 rings, 7 NBA Finals Appearances, 2 Finals MVPs, 1 league MVP, 18 All Star appearances, 4 All Star Game MVPs, 15 All NBA teams, 12 All Defensive teams, 2 scoring titles, 2 Olympic Gold Medals.

12. Bill Russell-11 rings, 12 NBA Finals appearances, 5 league MVPs, 12 All Star appearances, 1 All Star Game MVP, 11 All NBA teams, 1 All Defensive team, 4 time rebounding leader.

13. David Robinson-2 rings, 2 NBA Finals appearances, 1 league MVP, 10 All Star appearances, 10 All NBA teams, 8 All Defensive teams, 1 DPoY, 1 scoring title, 1 time leader in rebounds, 1 time leader in blocks, RoTY, had a quadruple double in a game, 1 Olympic Gold Medal.

14. Jerry West-1 ring, 9 NBA Finals appearances, 1 Finals MVP, 14 All Star appearances, 1 All Star Game MVP, 12 All NBA teams, 5 All Defensive teams, 1 scoring title, 1 time assists leader.

15. Karl Malone-3 NBA finals appearances, 2 league MVPs, 14 All Star appearances, 2 All Star Game MVPs, 14 All NBA teams, 4 All Defensive teams, 2 Olympic Gold Medals.

16. Moses Malone-1 ring, 2 NBA Finals appearances, 1 Finals MVP, 3 league MVPs, 12 All Star appearances, 8 All NBA teams, 2 All Defensive teams, 6 time rebounding leader, 1 ABA All Star appearance.

17. Julius Erving-1 ring, 4 NBA Finals appearances, 1 league MVP, 11 All Star appearances, 2 All Star Game MVPs, 7 All NBA teams, 2 ABA Championships, 2 ABA Playoff MVPs, 3 ABA MVPs, 5 ABA All Star appearances, 5 All ABA teams, 1 ABA All Defensive Team

18. Dwyane Wade*-3 rings, 5 NBA Finals appearances, 1 Finals MVP, 12 All Star appearances, 1 All Star Game MVP, 8 All NBA teams, 3 All Defensive teams, 1 scoring title, 1 Olympic Gold Medal, 1 Olympic Bronze Medal.

19. Dirk Nowitzki*-1 ring, 2 NBA Finals appearances, 1 Finals MVP, 1 league MVP, 13 All Star appearances, 12 All NBA teams, averaged 50-40-90 club in 1 season.

20. John Stockton-2 NBA Finals appearances, 10 All Star appearances, 1 All Star Game MVP, 11 All NBA teams, 5 All Defensive teams, 9 time assists leader, 2 time steals leader, All time leader in both Assists and Steals.

21. Bob Pettit-1 ring, 4 NBA Finals appearances, 2 league MVPs, 11 All Star appearances, 4 All Star Game MVPs, 11 All NBA teams, 2 scoring titles, RoTY

22. Kevin Garnett-1 ring, 2 NBA Finals appearances, 1 league MVP, 15 All Star appearances, 1 All Star Game MVP, 9 All NBA teams, 12 All Defensive teams, 1 DPoY, 4 time rebounding leader, 1 Olympic Gold Medal.

23. Kevin Durant*-1 ring, 2 NBA Finals appearances, 1 Finals MVP, 1 league MVP, 9 All Star appearances, 1 All Star Game MVP, 7 All NBA teams, averaged 50-40-90 in 1 season, 4 scoring titles, RoTY, 2 Olympic Gold Medals.

24. Charles Barkley-1 NBA Finals appearance, 1 league MVP, 11 All Star appearances, 1 All Star Game MVP, 11 All NBA teams, 1 time rebounding leader, 2 Olympic Gold Medals.

25. Steve Nash-2 league MVPs, 8 All Star appearances, 7 All NBA teams, averaged 50-40-90 4 times, 5 time assists leader,

* still playing

Jamiecballer
05-18-2018, 08:48 PM
People were critical of Pippen being on original the top 50 now he's top 25. That guy gets better with age!Pippen actually does get better as our understanding of the game evolves in a way. For starters, the more of these Jordan like clones we see the more we see that good players tend to shrink numbers wise when paired with a superior offensive force. Don't you always marvel at how good players all of a sudden "suck" when they play with LeBron? I know you are being tongue in cheek. It should be pretty clear by now that Pippen took up all the available oxygen Jordan left him.

Second, I think watching LeBron succeed at such a high level despite being inclined to pass and involve his teammates and fill up the stat sheet has demonstrated there is more than one way to have Jordan like impact.

I mean, isn't Pippen sort of to LeBron what Kobe was to Jordan? Low fat version.

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More-Than-Most
05-18-2018, 08:53 PM
seeing the arguments so far id have wade between 18-30... i see no real argument for him in the top 15.

Chronz
05-18-2018, 08:57 PM
Wilt wouldnít have anywhere near those numbers in the nba today
They'd be better. You just have to understand numbers

Chronz
05-18-2018, 09:00 PM
You need to maybe start 'know - ing' more on who belongs and who doesn't, knowledge is key, just listen to your favorite players, listening is a skilled art

He is still your favorite players favorite player

ask your PointGod CP3
ask the most dominant player of his era, LBJ

Facts
Nah . I'll stick to facts

Chronz
05-18-2018, 09:02 PM
Pippen actually does get better as our understanding of the game evolves in a way. For starters, the more of these Jordan like clones we see the more we see that good players tend to shrink numbers wise when paired with a superior offensive force. Don't you always marvel at how good players all of a sudden "suck" when they play with LeBron? I know you are being tongue in cheek. It should be pretty clear by now that Pippen took up all the available oxygen Jordan left him.

Second, I think watching LeBron succeed at such a high level despite being inclined to pass and involve his teammates and fill up the stat sheet has demonstrated there is more than one way to have Jordan like impact.

I mean, isn't Pippen sort of to LeBron what Kobe was to Jordan? Low fat version.

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I don't remember you being so eloquent

ewing
05-18-2018, 09:28 PM
Pippen actually does get better as our understanding of the game evolves in a way. For starters, the more of these Jordan like clones we see the more we see that good players tend to shrink numbers wise when paired with a superior offensive force. Don't you always marvel at how good players all of a sudden "suck" when they play with LeBron? I know you are being tongue in cheek. It should be pretty clear by now that Pippen took up all the available oxygen Jordan left him.

Second, I think watching LeBron succeed at such a high level despite being inclined to pass and involve his teammates and fill up the stat sheet has demonstrated there is more than one way to have Jordan like impact.

I mean, isn't Pippen sort of to LeBron what Kobe was to Jordan? Low fat version.

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The guy was a great player he was not arguably a top 25 player ever and unlike LeBron teammates he actually played his best next to MJ. Offensively he was a second option and in the playoffs he was a regular choker. Good narrative though.


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europagnpilgrim
05-18-2018, 10:05 PM
Nah . I'll stick to facts

Well to start with those facts, start with his GM / Core / Coach

Brown was the Coach and quasi - GM who built the team and publicly admitted he made a mockery of drafting Hughes over Pierce because of a pre - draft promise, Pierce had his jersey retired and will be a HOF'er, not Hughes, he wont get in, Facts

Mckie and Snow were the core for 7yrs, career 13ppg combined( and incompetent followers of the game wonder why he shot 30x per game, well there you have it, Facts)

so do as you preach and stick to Facts

the quotes made by CP3 and Bron about Iverson are indeed.....Facts

when you stick to the Facts you over - stand Truth

europagnpilgrim
05-18-2018, 11:01 PM
Wilt wouldnít have anywhere near those numbers in the nba today

https://youtu.be/G94iJr8ZbzM

Most dominant solo act / athlete of all time, WNC

NYKalltheway
05-19-2018, 05:12 AM
Pippen was a top 20-25 player in the early 90s and arguably a top 10 player in the mid 90s. Maybe top 15 in the late 90s when new talent started to emerge. The love he's getting is due to playing for the Bulls during Michael Jordan's era and because people need to reduce Michael's greatness in order to "prove" (lol) that Lebron is even comparable in our universe.

The following lists are not in order.

Early 90s (let's call this 1990-1993)
Michael Jordan
Charles Barkley
Hakeem Olajuwon
Patrick Ewing
David Robinson
Karl Malone
John Stockton
Clyde Drexler
Magic Johnson
Larry Bird
Isiah Thomas
Dominique Wilkins
Mark Price
Kevin Johnson
Joe Dumars
Brad Daugherty
Buck Williams
Chris Mullin
Mitch Richmond
Shawn Kemp

That's at least 20 players who were definitely considered better than Pippen in that period and that's also excluding guys like Tom Chambers and Bernard King who have had some great seasons in the meantime. Of course one could argue about a couple of names but there's also at least 5 more than are worth mentioning that I've excluded, like Reggie Miller or Danny Manning.


Mid 90s: (let's call this 1993-1996)
(I'm guessing Michael Jordan cannot be part of this period but his 1995-6 is included so I'm guessing it's great enough to warrant his name on the list)
Shaquille O'Neal
Hakeem Olajuwon
Charles Barkley
Patrick Ewing
John Stockton
Karl Malone
Gary Payton
Alonzo Mourning
Penny Hardaway

I think these were definitely better than Pippen in that time and that puts Scottie at around #10. Then there's guys like Shawn Kemp, Grant Hill (his first 2 seasons), Reggie Miller, Mitch Richmond, Clyde Drexler, Latrell Sprewell and Tim Hardaway among others so even that #10 is heavily contested.

Late 90s: (let's call this 1996-1999)
Michael Jordan
Shaquille O'Neal
Alonzo Mourning
Gary Payton
Tim Hardaway
Kobe Bryant
Glen Rice
Karl Malone
John Stockton
Grant Hill
Allen Iverson
Chris Webber
Kevin Garnett

could also add Mutombo, Duncan(2 seasons), Jason Kidd, Vin Baker, David Robinson, Mitch Richmond, Reggie Miller, Allan Houston... so Pippen is slotted somewhere around #15.

His early 2000s Portland tenure wasn't really great to There's no way Scottie Pippen is a top 30 player in NBA history. Maybe if we ignore the first 40 years of the NBA he has such a claim.

Jamiecballer
05-19-2018, 09:17 AM
I don't remember you being so eloquentThe day I had 2 small kids was the day i started using my phone exclusively on psd. It was also the last time I had more than 60 seconds to make a point on here.

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Jamiecballer
05-19-2018, 09:35 AM
The guy was a great player he was not arguably a top 25 player ever and unlike LeBron teammates he actually played his best next to MJ. Offensively he was a second option and in the playoffs he was a regular choker. Good narrative though.


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narrative. i appreciate the chuckle and the irony. Pippen was Lebrons age now when he finally moved on from Chicago, and we've spent the past 2 months marvelling at how he hasn't slowed down yet at his age. So yeah, he was sort of at his best playing alongside Jordan for the bulk of his years, although he was pretty damn good the 2 years MJ was gone. and the notorious choker label, again, unless you are referring to his post Chicago days certainly doesn't stand up to closer scrutiny either. the definition of narrative.

ewing
05-19-2018, 10:23 AM
narrative. i appreciate the chuckle and the irony. Pippen was Lebrons age now when he finally moved on from Chicago, and we've spent the past 2 months marvelling at how he hasn't slowed down yet at his age. So yeah, he was sort of at his best playing alongside Jordan for the bulk of his years, although he was pretty damn good the 2 years MJ was gone. and the notorious choker label, again, unless you are referring to his post Chicago days certainly doesn't stand up to closer scrutiny either. the definition of narrative.

Iím not saying he wasnít good Iím saying he is not even arguably a top 25 of all time player. He was best as a second option offensively. He only scored 22 a night the year Jordan was gone and the reason the team was good was bc they were still an elite defensive team. The second year they were around 500 til MJ returned. For his career he is a 16 6 and 5 guy! For his career he scored 17, 7, and 5 on 44% in the playoffs! In over 200 playoff games he has one memorable playoff moment- the dunk over Ewing- unless you count headaches and getting benched for Kocok. He was a heck of a defender but to be top 25 all time he would have had to be Bill Russell level defender in that end . The guy was good but has become vastly overrated in a historical context.


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JAZZNC
05-19-2018, 02:10 PM
You need to maybe start 'know - ing' more on who belongs and who doesn't, knowledge is key, just listen to your favorite players, listening is a skilled art

He is still your favorite players favorite player

ask your PointGod CP3
ask the most dominant player of his era, LBJ

Facts

You seem to be confusing facts with opinion and anecdotal evidence.

WaDe03
05-19-2018, 02:23 PM
seeing the arguments so far id have wade between 18-30... i see no real argument for him in the top 15.

Whatever helps LeBron the most right?

Chronz
05-19-2018, 02:59 PM
Well to start with those facts, start with his GM / Core / Coach

Brown was the Coach and quasi - GM who built the team and publicly admitted he made a mockery of drafting Hughes over Pierce because of a pre - draft promise, Pierce had his jersey retired and will be a HOF'er, not Hughes, he wont get in, Facts

Mckie and Snow were the core for 7yrs, career 13ppg combined( and incompetent followers of the game wonder why he shot 30x per game, well there you have it, Facts)

so do as you preach and stick to Facts

the quotes made by CP3 and Bron about Iverson are indeed.....Facts

when you stick to the Facts you over - stand Truth
Every team misses out on talent, not everyone fails as hard as Iverson.

AI shot that much and was surrounded by those players because of his weaknesses on both sides. Bron had an older snow and an injured Hughes and never played as selfishly and inefficiently, that's the difference between greatness and mediocrity.

I'll stick to facts, you keep your opinions tho

Chronz
05-19-2018, 03:02 PM
Pippen was a top 20-25 player in the early 90s and arguably a top 10 player in the mid 90s. Maybe top 15 in the late 90s when new talent started to emerge. The love he's getting is due to playing for the Bulls during Michael Jordan's era and because people need to reduce Michael's greatness in order to "prove" (lol) that Lebron is even comparable in our universe.

The following lists are not in order.

Early 90s (let's call this 1990-1993)
Michael Jordan
Charles Barkley
Hakeem Olajuwon
Patrick Ewing
David Robinson
Karl Malone
John Stockton
Clyde Drexler
Magic Johnson
Larry Bird
Isiah Thomas
Dominique Wilkins
Mark Price
Kevin Johnson
Joe Dumars
Brad Daugherty
Buck Williams
Chris Mullin
Mitch Richmond
Shawn Kemp

That's at least 20 players who were definitely considered better than Pippen in that period and that's also excluding guys like Tom Chambers and Bernard King who have had some great seasons in the meantime. Of course one could argue about a couple of names but there's also at least 5 more than are worth mentioning that I've excluded, like Reggie Miller or Danny Manning.


Mid 90s: (let's call this 1993-1996)
(I'm guessing Michael Jordan cannot be part of this period but his 1995-6 is included so I'm guessing it's great enough to warrant his name on the list)
Shaquille O'Neal
Hakeem Olajuwon
Charles Barkley
Patrick Ewing
John Stockton
Karl Malone
Gary Payton
Alonzo Mourning
Penny Hardaway

I think these were definitely better than Pippen in that time and that puts Scottie at around #10. Then there's guys like Shawn Kemp, Grant Hill (his first 2 seasons), Reggie Miller, Mitch Richmond, Clyde Drexler, Latrell Sprewell and Tim Hardaway among others so even that #10 is heavily contested.

Late 90s: (let's call this 1996-1999)
Michael Jordan
Shaquille O'Neal
Alonzo Mourning
Gary Payton
Tim Hardaway
Kobe Bryant
Glen Rice
Karl Malone
John Stockton
Grant Hill
Allen Iverson
Chris Webber
Kevin Garnett

could also add Mutombo, Duncan(2 seasons), Jason Kidd, Vin Baker, David Robinson, Mitch Richmond, Reggie Miller, Allan Houston... so Pippen is slotted somewhere around #15.

His early 2000s Portland tenure wasn't really great to There's no way Scottie Pippen is a top 30 player in NBA history. Maybe if we ignore the first 40 years of the NBA he has such a claim.
Based on what tho

More-Than-Most
05-19-2018, 03:12 PM
Whatever helps LeBron the most right?

Lebron doesnt need help... The only reason you made this thread/list is to try and stroke Wades junk and its failed miserably because nobody shares your opinion.

WaDe03
05-19-2018, 03:25 PM
Lebron doesnt need help... The only reason you made this thread/list is to try and stroke Wades junk and its failed miserably because nobody shares your opinion.

Thatís axtually not why I made it, Iíve explained why. We know why you said the **** you do though, thereís literally no argument for Wade at 30.

More-Than-Most
05-19-2018, 03:31 PM
Thatís axtually not why I made it, Iíve explained why. We know why you said the **** you do though, thereís literally no argument for Wade at 30.

18-30... depends on how people put weight on era/help etc... Id have him between the 20-22 range personally... I can see arguments for 18 or as low as say 28 or so... Above 18 is just hilarious. Also Id already have Durant ahead of him or right there with him... Durant will blow by him within 2 years on almost everyones list.

WaDe03
05-19-2018, 04:45 PM
18-30... depends on how people put weight on era/help etc... Id have him between the 20-22 range personally... I can see arguments for 18 or as low as say 28 or so... Above 18 is just hilarious. Also Id already have Durant ahead of him or right there with him... Durant will blow by him within 2 years on almost everyones list.

Yea letís give KD credit for being a ***** and joining a 73-9 team. His rings mean nothing and his numbers against single coverage donít mean much either.

ewing
05-19-2018, 05:03 PM
Pippen was a top 20-25 player in the early 90s and arguably a top 10 player in the mid 90s. Maybe top 15 in the late 90s when new talent started to emerge. The love he's getting is due to playing for the Bulls during Michael Jordan's era and because people need to reduce Michael's greatness in order to "prove" (lol) that Lebron is even comparable in our universe.

The following lists are not in order.

Early 90s (let's call this 1990-1993)
Michael Jordan
Charles Barkley
Hakeem Olajuwon
Patrick Ewing
David Robinson
Karl Malone
John Stockton
Clyde Drexler
Magic Johnson
Larry Bird
Isiah Thomas
Dominique Wilkins
Mark Price
Kevin Johnson
Joe Dumars
Brad Daugherty
Buck Williams
Chris Mullin
Mitch Richmond
Shawn Kemp

That's at least 20 players who were definitely considered better than Pippen in that period and that's also excluding guys like Tom Chambers and Bernard King who have had some great seasons in the meantime. Of course one could argue about a couple of names but there's also at least 5 more than are worth mentioning that I've excluded, like Reggie Miller or Danny Manning.


Mid 90s: (let's call this 1993-1996)
(I'm guessing Michael Jordan cannot be part of this period but his 1995-6 is included so I'm guessing it's great enough to warrant his name on the list)
Shaquille O'Neal
Hakeem Olajuwon
Charles Barkley
Patrick Ewing
John Stockton
Karl Malone
Gary Payton
Alonzo Mourning
Penny Hardaway

I think these were definitely better than Pippen in that time and that puts Scottie at around #10. Then there's guys like Shawn Kemp, Grant Hill (his first 2 seasons), Reggie Miller, Mitch Richmond, Clyde Drexler, Latrell Sprewell and Tim Hardaway among others so even that #10 is heavily contested.

Late 90s: (let's call this 1996-1999)
Michael Jordan
Shaquille O'Neal
Alonzo Mourning
Gary Payton
Tim Hardaway
Kobe Bryant
Glen Rice
Karl Malone
John Stockton
Grant Hill
Allen Iverson
Chris Webber
Kevin Garnett

could also add Mutombo, Duncan(2 seasons), Jason Kidd, Vin Baker, David Robinson, Mitch Richmond, Reggie Miller, Allan Houston... so Pippen is slotted somewhere around #15.

His early 2000s Portland tenure wasn't really great to There's no way Scottie Pippen is a top 30 player in NBA history. Maybe if we ignore the first 40 years of the NBA he has such a claim.

There are a couple guys on here I think Pip was clearly better then (Brad Daughterty for example) but general this post crushes it


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More-Than-Most
05-19-2018, 05:04 PM
Yea letís give KD credit for being a ***** and joining a 73-9 team. His rings mean nothing and his numbers against single coverage donít mean much either.

I dont disagree but there is only so much you can hold against the guy... he will end up with probably 3 or 4 rings as well and likely a top 5 player ever statistically when all is said and done... The guys prime is insane right now.

Jamiecballer
05-19-2018, 06:11 PM
Iím not saying he wasnít good Iím saying he is not even arguably a top 25 of all time player. He was best as a second option offensively. He only scored 22 a night the year Jordan was gone and the reason the team was good was bc they were still an elite defensive team. The second year they were around 500 til MJ returned. For his career he is a 16 6 and 5 guy! For his career he scored 17, 7, and 5 on 44% in the playoffs! In over 200 playoff games he has one memorable playoff moment- the dunk over Ewing- unless you count headaches and getting benched for Kocok. He was a heck of a defender but to be top 25 all time he would have had to be Bill Russell level defender in that end . The guy was good but has become vastly overrated in a historical context.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

i get it. he is only a career 16ppg, 6rpg, 5apg. then you remember that the list of players in the history of the game that satisfy that criteria are

Michael Jordan
LeBron James
Oscar Robertson
Larry Bird
Rick Barry
Russell Westbrook
Clyde Drexler
Magic Johnson
Scottie Pippen

now, take what you know about Lebron James and how basically everyone shrinks playing with him and tell me you don't think that modest 16ppg wouldn't be 20ppg easy without Michael Jordan soaking up all those scoring opportunities. that's not something that can be treated as fact but come on, you are not dense.

then you add in his incredible defense, and yes he was incredible on the defensive end. excellent rebounder for his position, don't lose sight of the fact that MJ was awfully tough competition for rebounds as well. blocked shots and had an extraordinary nose for the ball. a total force on that end.

there are only 3 players in history BTW who averaged > 1.95 spg and > 0.7 bpg.

Michael Jordan
Jerry West
Scottie Pippen

europagnpilgrim
05-19-2018, 06:45 PM
Every team misses out on talent, not everyone fails as hard as Iverson.

AI shot that much and was surrounded by those players because of his weaknesses on both sides. Bron had an older snow and an injured Hughes and never played as selfishly and inefficiently, that's the difference between greatness and mediocrity.

I'll stick to facts, you keep your opinions tho


No **** Sherlock, its the reason why they leaned on those 13ppg players because they drafted horribly, they didn't miss out on talent, they drafted talent, they just didn't draft the HOF game / talented players

don't know what you mean by failing but if having Mckie and Snow in the Finals as your go to sidekicks that is about as much success as you can ever imagine, stop over ranking /valuing 6ppg career scorers, its such a incompetent disease running amok on here about players abilities

AI shot that much because I just showed you why, why is that so hard for you to grasp? just like you mention Bron had an older Snow, who on the public record said when he was there Cavs he had no job because Bron dominated the ball, ran the entire offense, remember Barkley use to say on TNT over and over about the first stint Bron Cavs? dribble dribble dribble dribble then take a shot or pass, that is about as selfish as you can get, Snow didn't even see the court because the only thing he was good at was setting up offense so he said he had a job with Iverson, with Bron he didn't, once again.....Facts

but once you wrap your basic mind around it you realize Bron had Boobie Gibson as his 2nd option in the postseason so what is he supposed to do? let Boobie get 20+ shots? he set up Mo Will as much as he could but it was Bron or bust, and who cares that Bron shot 48% with Cavs because it was clear as day to me he could shoot what he did in Miami with the talent, just like when AI shot 46% in his 12th season with Melo, he could have done that when he was younger if the high end talent was there from the jump, not 12 years into his career, that was because of the talent around him earlier, Bron should be more efficient,especially with his size to man the post area at will, reaching for that elusive needle in the haystack and coming up shorter than alligator arms, Facts

Hughes was good for Bron until his injuries, Sixers tried to trade that same Hughes for TMac after making a blunder of the 98' draft, Facts

difference between greatness and mediocrity is a ring / winning, but whatever makes you feel better about yourself, keep thinking that and tell Iverson don't stiff you for a autograph anymore, CP3 loves Iverson so much he patterned his unselfish game / style after his, CP3 says he plays his way because of Iverson, so much for being selfish

I give you inefficient pertaining to FG percentage, just as long as you add on those 6ppg career scorers and their inefficient ways, pre and post Iverson

when you are the only player they game plan to stop and you still give teams / players the biz, you are utterly dominant, in any era

Jamiecballer
05-19-2018, 06:49 PM
Pippen was a top 20-25 player in the early 90s and arguably a top 10 player in the mid 90s. Maybe top 15 in the late 90s when new talent started to emerge. The love he's getting is due to playing for the Bulls during Michael Jordan's era and because people need to reduce Michael's greatness in order to "prove" (lol) that Lebron is even comparable in our universe.

The following lists are not in order.

Early 90s (let's call this 1990-1993)
Michael Jordan
Charles Barkley
Hakeem Olajuwon
Patrick Ewing
David Robinson
Karl Malone
John Stockton
Clyde Drexler
Magic Johnson
Larry Bird
Isiah Thomas
Dominique Wilkins
Mark Price
Kevin Johnson
Joe Dumars
Brad Daugherty
Buck Williams
Chris Mullin
Mitch Richmond
Shawn Kemp

That's at least 20 players who were definitely considered better than Pippen in that period and that's also excluding guys like Tom Chambers and Bernard King who have had some great seasons in the meantime. Of course one could argue about a couple of names but there's also at least 5 more than are worth mentioning that I've excluded, like Reggie Miller or Danny Manning.


Mid 90s: (let's call this 1993-1996)
(I'm guessing Michael Jordan cannot be part of this period but his 1995-6 is included so I'm guessing it's great enough to warrant his name on the list)
Shaquille O'Neal
Hakeem Olajuwon
Charles Barkley
Patrick Ewing
John Stockton
Karl Malone
Gary Payton
Alonzo Mourning
Penny Hardaway

I think these were definitely better than Pippen in that time and that puts Scottie at around #10. Then there's guys like Shawn Kemp, Grant Hill (his first 2 seasons), Reggie Miller, Mitch Richmond, Clyde Drexler, Latrell Sprewell and Tim Hardaway among others so even that #10 is heavily contested.

Late 90s: (let's call this 1996-1999)
Michael Jordan
Shaquille O'Neal
Alonzo Mourning
Gary Payton
Tim Hardaway
Kobe Bryant
Glen Rice
Karl Malone
John Stockton
Grant Hill
Allen Iverson
Chris Webber
Kevin Garnett

could also add Mutombo, Duncan(2 seasons), Jason Kidd, Vin Baker, David Robinson, Mitch Richmond, Reggie Miller, Allan Houston... so Pippen is slotted somewhere around #15.

His early 2000s Portland tenure wasn't really great to There's no way Scottie Pippen is a top 30 player in NBA history. Maybe if we ignore the first 40 years of the NBA he has such a claim.

that list is ****ing hilarious. i am crapping my pants. glen rice. tim hardaway. allen iverson. mitch richmond. vin baker LMAO reggie miller mark price brad daugherty buck williams LMFAO joe dumars. you should just stop LMFAO

europagnpilgrim
05-19-2018, 06:53 PM
that list is ****ing hilarious. i am crapping my pants. glen rice. tim hardaway. allen iverson. mitch richmond. vin baker LMAO reggie miller mark price brad daugherty buck williams LMFAO joe dumars. you should just stop LMFAO

Make sure you use toilet paper to wipe your face as well - The Answer

NYKalltheway
05-19-2018, 06:56 PM
that list is ****ing hilarious. i am crapping my pants. glen rice. tim hardaway. allen iverson. mitch richmond. vin baker LMAO reggie miller mark price brad daugherty buck williams LMFAO joe dumars. you should just stop LMFAO

Almost all of these players were ahead of Pippen in MVP voting during the period I mentioned them. I guess everyone was an idiot back then and they needed your insight to correct their view.

But they didn't have 1,5 steals and 0,7 blocks per game and 3 chewing gums per quarter, so they suck right?

europagnpilgrim
05-19-2018, 06:59 PM
i get it. he is only a career 16ppg, 6rpg, 5apg. then you remember that the list of players in the history of the game that satisfy that criteria are

Michael Jordan
LeBron James
Oscar Robertson
Larry Bird
Rick Barry
Russell Westbrook
Clyde Drexler
Magic Johnson
Scottie Pippen

now, take what you know about Lebron James and how basically everyone shrinks playing with him and tell me you don't think that modest 16ppg wouldn't be 20ppg easy without Michael Jordan soaking up all those scoring opportunities. that's not something that can be treated as fact but come on, you are not dense.

then you add in his incredible defense, and yes he was incredible on the defensive end. excellent rebounder for his position, don't lose sight of the fact that MJ was awfully tough competition for rebounds as well. blocked shots and had an extraordinary nose for the ball. a total force on that end.

there are only 3 players in history BTW who averaged > 1.95 spg and > 0.7 bpg.

Michael Jordan
Jerry West
Scottie Pippen

So is Iverson boosted higher since him and Jordan are the only players in NBA history to put up two 50pt games in a 7 game series? you know the playoffs are where legends are made right?

Iverson is 2nd all time PPG in playoff history, does that mean he is the 2nd best player ever being behind only Jordan in that category?

I am just saying this because you are using the same thing to place Pippen up there, thanks for the advice for me to utilize to best of my ability, Facts

Jamiecballer
05-19-2018, 07:37 PM
Almost all of these players were ahead of Pippen in MVP voting during the period I mentioned them. I guess everyone was an idiot back then and they needed your insight to correct their view.

But they didn't have 1,5 steals and 0,7 blocks per game and 3 chewing gums per quarter, so they suck right?

i'm going to let you in on a secret: scottie pippen played on the same team as michael jordan. i'll put it to you this way - if you can spare the time have a look at the difference between Kevin Love's numbers as a member of the TWolves and his numbers as a Cav. then ponder what the difference there is. then also consider if you will, the difference in the way Love was perceived before and after making the move to Cleveland.

another way to put this - Allen Iverson has an MVP. An actual MVP award. Unless you think there is any possible justification using the data available to us in the year 2018 for this man actually getting an MVP at the same time Kobe Bryant, Shaquille Oneal, Tim Duncan and Kevin Garnett were playing.

Jamiecballer
05-19-2018, 07:52 PM
So is Iverson boosted higher since him and Jordan are the only players in NBA history to put up two 50pt games in a 7 game series? you know the playoffs are where legends are made right?

Iverson is 2nd all time PPG in playoff history, does that mean he is the 2nd best player ever being behind only Jordan in that category?

I am just saying this because you are using the same thing to place Pippen up there, thanks for the advice for me to utilize to best of my ability, Facts

lmao. not quite what i am doing. the fact that you are using PPG even though the underlying numbers are awful tells me how out of touch you really are though. Like, if you tell me you get to have sex with a supermodel - thats a great accomplishment. Im proud of you. Until it comes out that you had to drug her and knock her out first. Same outcome, different level of pride.

Chronz
05-19-2018, 08:43 PM
No **** Sherlock, its the reason why they leaned on those 13ppg players because they drafted horribly, they didn't miss out on talent, they drafted talent, they just didn't draft the HOF game / talented players
That's the same thing, you're wasting time arguing semantics .



don't know what you mean by failing but if having Mckie and Snow in the Finals as your go to sidekicks that is about as much success as you can ever imagine, stop over ranking /valuing 6ppg career scorers, its such a incompetent disease running amok on here about players abilities
That was 1 year and he had the best sidekick in dikembe who was a monster statistically. He failed less that year but again, we're talking career here.




AI shot that much because I just showed you why, why is that so hard for you to grasp?
I just explained why they felt the need to build that way, it's not like they didn't try offensively oriented players.




just like you mention Bron had an older Snow, who on the public record said when he was there Cavs he had no job because Bron dominated the ball, ran the entire offense, remember Barkley use to say on TNT over and over about the first stint Bron Cavs? dribble dribble dribble dribble then take a shot or pass, that is about as selfish as you can get, Snow didn't even see the court because the only thing he was good at was setting up offense so he said he had a job with Iverson, with Bron he didn't, once again.....Facts
And he still made the finals with older snow without playing as selfishly. Nothing is more selfish than chucking.



but once you wrap your basic mind around it you realize Bron had Boobie Gibson as his 2nd option in the postseason so what is he supposed to do? let Boobie get 20+ shots? he set up Mo Will as much as he could but it was Bron or bust, and who cares that Bron shot 48% with Cavs because it was clear as day to me he could shoot what he did in Miami with the talent, just like when AI shot 46% in his 12th season with Melo, he could have done that when he was younger if the high end talent was there from the jump, not 12 years into his career, that was because of the talent around him earlier, Bron should be more efficient,especially with his size to man the post area at will, reaching for that elusive needle in the haystack and coming up shorter than alligator arms, Facts
He had the boobie game that sent them to the finals remember, you make the right basketball play, which bron did better than ai. Who cares that bron shot whatever fg%(dumb metric choice btw), idk, you brought it up, my point remains no matter who brons teammates are he will always be more effective than ai. That ai needs his touches reduced that drastically doesn't help you. In fact even in Denver his own coach and fans hated how little he passed the ball.



Hughes was good for Bron until his injuries, Sixers tried to trade that same Hughes for TMac after making a blunder of the 98' draft, Facts
He got injured year 1, remember, he played like half the season and couldn't even finish the playoff series against Detroit. Then he couldn't finish the series vs the spurs. If being chronically injured and declining athletically is good for bron then it no wonder you can't evaluate players. Try again plz




difference between greatness and mediocrity is a ring / winning, but whatever makes you feel better about yourself, keep thinking that and tell Iverson don't stiff you for a autograph anymore, CP3 loves Iverson so much he patterned his unselfish game / style after his, CP3 says he plays his way because of Iverson, so much for being selfish

That's not the difference, idgaf about rings. As for cp3, thank God he added more to that emulation. I know shamgod influenced him too. Great players take from the past generation, hell curry was mentored by paul and you can see how he influenced him (not stylistically, mentally). You know Jamal Crawford and willie green when we had him all said Iverson influenced them, are you really blind enough to suggest they're all the same type of player? Lmfao



I give you inefficient pertaining to FG percentage, just as long as you add on those 6ppg career scorers and their inefficient ways, pre and post Iverson
Only because ai was too dumb to master his game, other stars don't need as many excuses as Iverson ti produce at an all time level. Even ai at his most efficient was the kindof player Denver wanted to throw away.



when you are the only player they game plan to stop and you still give teams / players the biz, you are utterly dominant, in any era
Then why didn't he prove it? Why he miss so much? Why the bad defense? Why couldn't he hit 3s st a respectable rate?

Chronz
05-19-2018, 09:09 PM
lmao. not quite what i am doing. the fact that you are using PPG even though the underlying numbers are awful tells me how out of touch you really are though. Like, if you tell me you get to have sex with a supermodel - thats a great accomplishment. Im proud of you. Until it comes out that you had to drug her and knock her out first. Same outcome, different level of pride.
Remember when stackhouse averaged 30 or when he averaged 22 on a 50 win team that won with defense. Yeah turns out he wasn't that good, just chucking. He's like a mini version of Iverson if that makes sense, its no wonder the 2 clashed in their youth, both wanted to chuck every chance they got

Chronz
05-19-2018, 09:13 PM
Almost all of these players were ahead of Pippen in MVP voting during the period I mentioned them. I guess everyone was an idiot back then and they needed your insight to correct their view.

But they didn't have 1,5 steals and 0,7 blocks per game and 3 chewing gums per quarter, so they suck right?

Dude they prolly got like 1 homer vote in the city and never came close to actually winning the way pippen did when mj wasnt around to be the far and away most valuable bull.

Place pippen on any of those guys team, and he gets way more votes. I remember when the dream team began and everyone expected clyde and malone to use the stage to really break out on an mj level. Instead it was chuck and pippen who really impressed. Ever since then, scottie was on that level where you couldn't compare him to half the bums you mention

Jeffy25
05-19-2018, 10:16 PM
So is Iverson boosted higher since him and Jordan are the only players in NBA history to put up two 50pt games in a 7 game series? you know the playoffs are where legends are made right?

Iverson is 2nd all time PPG in playoff history, does that mean he is the 2nd best player ever being behind only Jordan in that category?

I am just saying this because you are using the same thing to place Pippen up there, thanks for the advice for me to utilize to best of my ability, Facts

With a .489 career TS%, gtfo with that



He took 26.5 FGA per playoff game in his career

That's 1.4 more field goal attempts per game than Jordan, and he scored 4 less ppg
LeBron is at 20.8 FGA per game, and is less than a point per game behind him.

That's a reach, and I realize you are only making a point. But it's a shallow point.

FlashBolt
05-20-2018, 04:10 AM
NYKalltheway is lost in all of this. He thinks the Big O is better than LeBron. Someone get this guy a VHS and a box TV so he can enjoy his MASH re-runs. I don't think this guy even watches basketball. Big O better than LeBron.. lol, stop it buddy. You're embarrassing yourself and revealing your hate for a player that is beyond comprehension.

1) MJ
2) KAJ
3) Bron = Tier 1
4) Wilt
5) Shaq
6) Duncan = Tier 2
7) Magic
8) Kobe
9) Bird
10) Hakeem = Tier 3

The rest isn't really worth solving. If you value peak longevity over rings or MVP's, you're going to have a different list than anyone else. I think KD is a top 15 player right now but I'm pretty sure most don't have him there, yet. Wade's lack of longevity puts him in the 20-25 area range. He's had a relatively low level of sustainable peak seasons. Barkley+KG+Malone+Dirk will always be the same tier for me so trying to distinguish those four guys are again, a matter of what you value. KG's defense over Dirk's offense? Up to you guys.

I think any list that doesn't have MJ, KAJ, and Bron in their top three is a total joke. There is no excuse anymore. LeBron is top three and it's not an opinion.

NYKalltheway
05-20-2018, 06:15 AM
Why are you hating on Bird and Magic? You're saying Lebron is better than either of them? Someone get this guy a pair of eyes and a brain please.

europagnpilgrim
05-20-2018, 08:51 AM
lmao. not quite what i am doing. the fact that you are using PPG even though the underlying numbers are awful tells me how out of touch you really are though. Like, if you tell me you get to have sex with a supermodel - thats a great accomplishment. Im proud of you. Until it comes out that you had to drug her and knock her out first. Same outcome, different level of pride.

I was just using something basic to counter what you or whoever wrote, it is exactly what you are doing just diff. play with words I guess

I would never have sex with these media / tv 'supermodel gender benders', it is not a great accomplishment for a alpha male / man to sleep with a gender bender MTF, that is an abomination according to the sacred HolyBible scriptures, but I am sure you look at these supermodels like Brady ''wife''(I don't mean it literally) and say wow what a supermodel, until you start looking down that rabbit hole

so was Iverson being 2nd in PPG have to do with more of who his teammates were or did he just chuck shots up with 2 other HOF / All star teammates? show me the outcome without your pride involved

europagnpilgrim
05-20-2018, 08:58 AM
With a .489 career TS%, gtfo with that



He took 26.5 FGA per playoff game in his career

That's 1.4 more field goal attempts per game than Jordan, and he scored 4 less ppg
LeBron is at 20.8 FGA per game, and is less than a point per game behind him.

That's a reach, and I realize you are only making a point. But it's a shallow point.

what was his playoff roster like? was it top heavy? was it get out the way and let Lynch and Snow get their 20ppg for his TS% to be so low? this is whats so funny about these numbers, are they isolated or team worthy? did Iverson play golf in a nba league or did the team build it that way? did Iverson wield his Lebron power and say I want all defenders? c'mon genius let me know

did he take 26 FGA attempts playing with KG / Shaq on the frontline and R Allen in the backcourt as help? or did he have career 6ppg scorers riding shotgun? Jordan is listed at 6'6'' and Lebron at 6'8'', its like saying Mugsy Bogues should shoot the same percentage if he had to shoot 26x per game and expect Bogues to shoot a high percentage with a bunch of forced shots per game, half of those attempts were shot clock running down, this is all public documented and I guess since you don't like Iverson you wouldn't know the stories told about him publicly, you only deal with numbers which I guess when dealing with Iverson numbers none of his teammates matter because they well just didn't matter

where do you rank Snow and Mckie

this is for everybody on here talking incompetent



where do you rank Eric Snow and Aaron Mckie on all time list?

this is a open question for all fanatics / incompetent / fake followers of the game on PSD

once I figure out where you rank those guys on a honest scale then I will be able to decipher your Iverson knowledge a lot better, now watch everybody run and hide like cowards because they know those players suck

if Iverson is in the 80 range, Snow and Mckie are in the 8000th range, Facts

europagnpilgrim
05-20-2018, 09:51 AM
That's the same thing, you're wasting time arguing semantics .


That was 1 year and he had the best sidekick in dikembe who was a monster statistically. He failed less that year but again, we're talking career here.


I just explained why they felt the need to build that way, it's not like they didn't try offensively oriented players.



And he still made the finals with older snow without playing as selfishly. Nothing is more selfish than chucking.


He had the boobie game that sent them to the finals remember, you make the right basketball play, which bron did better than ai. Who cares that bron shot whatever fg%(dumb metric choice btw), idk, you brought it up, my point remains no matter who brons teammates are he will always be more effective than ai. That ai needs his touches reduced that drastically doesn't help you. In fact even in Denver his own coach and fans hated how little he passed the ball.


He got injured year 1, remember, he played like half the season and couldn't even finish the playoff series against Detroit. Then he couldn't finish the series vs the spurs. If being chronically injured and declining athletically is good for bron then it no wonder you can't evaluate players. Try again plz



That's not the difference, idgaf about rings. As for cp3, thank God he added more to that emulation. I know shamgod influenced him too. Great players take from the past generation, hell curry was mentored by paul and you can see how he influenced him (not stylistically, mentally). You know Jamal Crawford and willie green when we had him all said Iverson influenced them, are you really blind enough to suggest they're all the same type of player? Lmfao


Only because ai was too dumb to master his game, other stars don't need as many excuses as Iverson ti produce at an all time level. Even ai at his most efficient was the kindof player Denver wanted to throw away.


Then why didn't he prove it? Why he miss so much? Why the bad defense? Why couldn't he hit 3s st a respectable rate?

1. Its the same thing? really Sherlock? you meaning to tell me that TMAC / Pierce / Dirk combo is same as trading for Mckie and Snow? damn, now I know the incompetent characters are for real, damn

2. They were mates for 7yrs, the 2001 season was 1 year, he had Mutombo for 1yr and a 1 / 2, damn you Iverson bashers are sure incompetent, speaking on **** you have no clue about and Mutombo was a slow footed 35yr old when Iverson got him, wow, just that you mention a 35yr old Mutombo is something else, what happen to Mutombo very next season they put in 3 second defense rule? best sidekick? well Ratliff got traded, you know a fast athletic rim running big who compliments players like Bron / Iverson better , he failed less that year but we are talking about careers right? so how do you keep leaving off Mckie and Snow who was there for 7yrs out of 10yrs, that is a 70% clip, now last I checked that is a pretty high percentage, if a player is shooting that from the field it is looked at as the holy grail, well Iverson had those 6ppg scorers for the holy grail of his career in Philly, 70%TS, that is amazing he didn't complain to the front office, oh wait he did and wanted to play smaller / faster and they spinned it in the media as him wanting to leave and he never wanted to leave that dump hole of an org., once again how is that failing have two 6ppg scorers are your core for 70% of philly career(10 1 / 2 seasons)? are you that damn ignorant and mad at Iverson for saying he failed with Mckie and Snow? did Bron fail for having Boobie / Mo Will as his sidekicks? why did Bron leave Cavs first time? didn't Bron say he didn't want to have bad knees by 30? code phrase for ''I am getting the hell out of here with my version of mckie / snow and going to Wade / Riley / Bosh, better situation more winning, titles, same Bron. same way I looked at Iverson but he decided to stay and not leave after first extension expired, he kept re upping with the dumb org., I guess loyalty did exist at one point, Iverson is the poster boy for when loyalty goes bad as well, good for him


3. Stackhouse was there and should have been 6th man but he wanted to chuck and they had new franchise player, so either Stack would have came off bench or we move him for pieces and focus on getting best talent / frontcourt players, Bowen would have been my SG / Defender / corner 3 guy or I would have tried to land a marksmen with range as backcourt help, anything better than what he had, L Brown built the team in his mold, not because Iverson wanted to shoot shots, that's the dumbest **** ever to try and explain to actual ball players, maybe to non ball players you can trick them but L Brown was on record saying he promised to draft Hughes, not Iverson made a promise, Brown the GM / Head Coach who made those mckie / snow trades to bring those players over, so it was L Brown team, cant you see that claiming you know about ball? that was all L Brown, why do you think Iverson was on the verge of 2000 trade to Pistons? because the team was L Brown, front office during those days really trumped the players, Brown had more clout so that team was built in his mold, Iverson just provided the scoring punch / minutes to make it work somewhat, still weak but AI was that guy, Facts

if you want to count T Thomas and Van Horn as trying, then damn go ahead its your free will, those were plan d type drafts, they shouldn't have been plan a type picks, but hey incompetent is as incompetent does, kudos to you for over ranking avg. players


4. Snow didn't get on the court(or barely) with Bron so what is that saying that he made it with Bron? Snow said in a interview / public record he had no job with Bron, Bron dominated / handled / pounded the ball all the time, Snow said with Iverson he had a job, come down and set up the play for Iverson to come off screen to shoot / attack, so once again your incompetent remarks about Snow are well just that, incompetent and holds not a ounce of water

really, nothing is more selfish than chucking? Snow was avg 1.5ppg pre Sixers trade and you want to complain about a guy shooting? have you ever played meaningful ball ever? be honest with yourself because last I checked if a player was avg. 1.5ppg and then went and played with superstar player and his avg go up to 12 - 13ppg then that is the superstar player making that teammate ''better'' right? then why in the hell when it comes to Iverson no one on here says he took Snow avg from 1.5ppg to career high 12 - 13ppg? well as I have stated on here, incompetent fanatics of their own nba world, you guys watch the game from a diff. lens, non playing lens that is

a guy forced chucking shots who can score vs. letting 6ppg career scorers chuck, who you got? we know, you are going with the ''latter'', good for you Chronzy boy

5. So Iverson and his 16 assists vs. Raptors to send them to Conference finals is not making right play? Iverson had to sit out a game just to heal against Bucks after getting pounded and Jordan rules by other teams, so was that the right call / play by AI to heal and come back to help team win series? Iverson always made the right play, they called him for 90% of the time to shoot, so he did what they asked of him, they moved him to SG, he was drafted out of G'Town a PG, who could score and dish and won back to back Defensive Player of the Year in BigEast, stealing the ball, as he did for 3 straight yrs in the league leading in steals, not a big deal at all, I only mention FG percentage because that's the only dumb stat you and others try to mention to try and derail Iverson, you probably didn't like his dress code style as well, and probably got stiffed for an autograph

in a big mans league the bigger guy should be more dominant, its just that Bron said Iverson play like his height so even Bron knows that if height were equal Iverson would **** on him and the league, Bron wont say that about Nash or Stockton or CP3 or any other little guy, they are not on that level

Karl hated him because he wasn't assist hunting like Miller, Melo / AI were the scorers and Smith was 3rd option, I guess AI should have tried to avg 10apg instead of the 7apg he gave them from the SG position, poor Iverson, cant do nothing right but be a 1st ballot HOF'er

and from the looks of it every player hated Karl, see how it ended in Sac town, that was just a small fire compared to how players legit hated him, I bet you missed that boat as well though.

6. what about Kukoc being out for Sixers? him and AI were playing real well together, if Ratliff doesn't get hurt then they are way better because he was the type of rim runner that would run all day and would have given Shaq fits, Shaq being 400lbs could outrun Mutombo slow footed self, so Bron had injuries to deal with and that Sixers team was injured as well, why do you think you say R Bell / K Ollie / McCullough in the Finals game 1? that was his other core after the main core in mckie / snow, do those sound like D League players or what? you don't know **** about basketball, sad to say

Iverson inherited 2x micro fracture in Webber, he got whatever was left of the injured big dog, who didn't play at all for them and somehow won a ring with the Spurs not playing either, Big Dog is better than Barkley and Malone because he has a ring and they don't, see how dumb that sounds?

so both inherited injured players, or does Lebron get the edge on that as well since you seem to love gloating about his shortcomings but act like Iverson was his own doing, which is clearly far from the F - actual truth

7. CP3 made the comment so we are going to stick to the actual sources mouth over any other opinion made by man / womb man, no CP3 didn't add more, he stuck to the script and only diff. is the way they are built, Iverson wanted to pass but it wasn't in the cards, just like CP3 needed to score more for Clippers but it wasn't in the cards, being mentored and playing / mimicking game style is way diff. Crawford play a lot like AI, Green was mentored and was small like AI, playing out of position, that's about all the comparison I see. I mention these comments that these players make which would be more legit than you or me trying to figure out what this player is thinking, Jordan influenced a **** load of players but it doesn't make them the same type of player, I state this to show who that those who heavily influence players are dominant / legend / icons of the game, Jordan was a dominant player who players mimicked and wanted to be / play like, Iverson is in that ilk / realm, so if you cant see that then you are about as incompetent as they could ever get

8. too dumb to master his game or too stuck in his ways like players of old? like Jordan couldn't master his game and get Washington to playoffs? at was at his most efficient on back side of apex / career, pushing 33yrs of age and having most efficient career says more to the team talent of Sixers vs. Nuggets, AI would have shot 50% as a young stud given the proper scenario / pieces, easily

Iverson went from 30 shots per game to 18 per game with Nuggets, then even lower with Pistons at around 14 shots per game which would round out to 7 shots per half, now did AI master his lower shot selection or was he forced to take less shots because of his surrounding talent / system of play? did Stockton learn to master his game when he finally reached the Finals a decade plus later in his career? why didn't Stockton learn how to master the 'scoring' help game, you know the same 20ppg Pippen would give Jordan, Malone needed it from his sidekick HOF'er over assist hunting PG, Stockton couldn't master the art of scoring and ''passing'' needed for that series, Malone needed a Iverson / Zeke who could at any moment match Jordan bucket for bucket, Malone would have matched or trumped Pippen, who new ball game in that series only if Stockton could have mastered something other than super assist hunting, and he still didn't get his 13 - 15apg that he was accustomed to getting, he was too one dimensional

Wizards used up Jordan and threw him away as well, guess AI / Jordan are one in the same

9. why didn't he prove it? why did the late great C Daly said he went into the archives when he coached Orlando and threw the Jordan rules at Iverson? what more proof do you need?

why did he miss so much? go asked SAS who has stated many times on public tv about the 'Iverson shooting too much scenario'', he breaks it down in plain simple English, and you would still find something to knitpick about once you hear it. bad defense? since when did a PG guarding a SG ever amount to anything good for the PG, unless you are Oscar / Magic / Simmons / Bron size, Iverson had to guard and being guarding by guys 6 - 8 inches taller, you say that is bad defense? when CP3 gets switched on taller players its bbq for the other player and isn't CP3 a 9x all defensive team player? what is a respectable rate? did he get open looks like Fisher playing with Shaq or like others who play with Bron? or did Iverson have to create the 3 for himself? is shooting in the mid 30's a horrible percentage for 3's? did you even watch Iverson play ever? who created shots for him in Philly to take wide open?

europagnpilgrim
05-20-2018, 11:20 AM
With a .489 career TS%, gtfo with that



He took 26.5 FGA per playoff game in his career

That's 1.4 more field goal attempts per game than Jordan, and he scored 4 less ppg
LeBron is at 20.8 FGA per game, and is less than a point per game behind him.

That's a reach, and I realize you are only making a point. But it's a shallow point.


- Detractors to Iverson's legacy have quite a bit of ammunition, if I had to say so myself. One could point to his inefficiency, but it's important to remember the circumstances of Iverson's era. For starters, Iverson starred in an era based on 'hero ball'. The notion at this time was to put the ball in the hands of your top guy night-in, night-out, and no matter what the stats said, as long as your club got the win, that's what mattered.


And to be clear, Iverson's team got wins. In just his third season, "The Answer" was able to guide the 76ers past the first round for three straight seasons, culminating in a trip to the NBA Finals in 2001. And to talk more about his efficiency: during the pre-hand check era prior to 2004-05, Iverson shot the ball at a 41.6% clip (5,104-of-12,247), whereas his percentages increased massively almost immediately.


AI jumped to a 44.2% shooting percentage once defenses weren't given incredible advantages. This was highlighted by what I believe to be Iverson's finest season in 2005-06, when Iverson averaged 33.0 PPG, 7.4 APG, and 1.9 SPG on a solid 44.7% FG. The year prior, just 30.7 PPG, 7.9 APG, 4.0 RPG, and 2.4 SPG. These are right on par with his 2001 MVP season. All he was missing was a solid supporting cast.




At shooting guard, Allen Iverson gets the nod above both George ďIce ManĒ Gervin and Pistol Pete Maravich because of a deep postseason run and a Finals appearance to his credit. In the 2001 NBA Finals, Iverson ran into the middle of the Lakersí three-peat, led by the formidable one-two punch of Kobe Bryant and Shaquille OíNeal.

While Philly went down four games to one, Iverson carried on as the franchiseís sole hope, flanked by players like Eric Snow and an aging Dikembe Mutumbo. In any event, A.I. torched the Lakers for 36 points per game through this championship series.


Arguably the toughest man to play the game of basketball, Iverson stood just 6 feet tall and weighed in at a mere 165 pounds, but that didnít stop his fearless drives to the hoop. A.I. never shied away from the contact and physical play of much larger forwards and centers. For his career, Iverson averaged 27 points per game after leading the league in scoring through four separate seasons.



http://thehoopdoctors.com/2008/04/are-the-2008-cavs-just-a-reincarnation-of-the-2001-sixers/

FlashBolt
05-20-2018, 03:24 PM
Why are you hating on Bird and Magic? You're saying Lebron is better than either of them? Someone get this guy a pair of eyes and a brain please.

You lost your remarkably low credibility already when you try and argue Big O is better than LeBron.

Jamiecballer
05-20-2018, 03:38 PM
I was just using something basic to counter what you or whoever wrote, it is exactly what you are doing just diff. play with words I guess

I would never have sex with these media / tv 'supermodel gender benders', it is not a great accomplishment for a alpha male / man to sleep with a gender bender MTF, that is an abomination according to the sacred HolyBible scriptures, but I am sure you look at these supermodels like Brady ''wife''(I don't mean it literally) and say wow what a supermodel, until you start looking down that rabbit hole

so was Iverson being 2nd in PPG have to do with more of who his teammates were or did he just chuck shots up with 2 other HOF / All star teammates? show me the outcome without your pride involved

is it? it's the exact same thing? my sample size is enormous, and includes the productivity of an entire career. look, i get it, if the list of players that came up when you run a filter of 16ppg, 6rpg, 5apg was

Michael Jordan
Boobie Gibson
Oscar Robertson
Scott Padgett
Rick Barry
Robert Horry
Magic Johnson
Amir Johnson
Scottie Pippen

it would be far less impactful. but it isn't.

Michael Jordan
LeBron James
Oscar Robertson
Larry Bird
Rick Barry
Russell Westbrook
Clyde Drexler
Magic Johnson
Scottie Pippen

you don't show up in this company unless you possess an extremely diverse and rare combination of skills. how about this statline

> 15.9 ppg
> 5.9 rpg
> 4.9 apg
> 1.95 spg
> 0.7 bpg

that combination is so unbelievably rare that it has shown up exactly twice in NBA history. Michael Jordan & Scottie Pippen.

at the end of the day, people are going to get hung up on the 16ppg as if that is somehow pedestrian, but for a (long) career? that includes the growth and decline phases? it's not. 16ppg for a career is something only 200 players in the history of the game can claim, and clearly Pippen was suppressed in counting numbers by the great MJ.

papipapsmanny
05-20-2018, 03:55 PM
Whatever helps LeBron the most right?

Wade isn't top 15... he is in that 19-28 range

NYKalltheway
05-20-2018, 06:57 PM
You lost your remarkably low credibility already when you try and argue Big O is better than LeBron.

You cannot talk about credibility when you try to argue that Lebron > Oscar.

Jeffy25
05-20-2018, 08:41 PM
You cannot talk about credibility when you try to argue that Lebron > Oscar.

Dude, come the hell on. No way you actually believe the stuff you type.

Even if we just took the raw stats of Oscar playing in a track meet with no three's, no international players, and the sport was hardly professional at the time. LeBron is still whooping him every where.

LeBron, Kareem, and Jordan. Top 3 ever, no matter the criteria. How you rank those three, how you tier them, etc is a discussion, but nobody else really belongs in that top 3 consideration (maybe Wilt, but that seems wrong considering the era)

Oscar is around the 15thish player of all time, according to every one else on this list. LeBron, safely in the top 3. What is your argument for Oscar over LeBron?

NYKalltheway
05-21-2018, 02:41 AM
Oscar was a better player than Lebron is. That's the only argument that matters.

Jeffy25
05-21-2018, 04:08 AM
Oscar was a better player than Lebron is. That's the only argument that matters.

But you can't make that argument logically at all.

NYKalltheway
05-21-2018, 04:41 AM
But you can't make that argument logically at all.

What's the argument that Lebron > Oscar?

ewing
05-21-2018, 06:52 AM
i get it. he is only a career 16ppg, 6rpg, 5apg. then you remember that the list of players in the history of the game that satisfy that criteria are

Michael Jordan
LeBron James
Oscar Robertson
Larry Bird
Rick Barry
Russell Westbrook
Clyde Drexler
Magic Johnson
Scottie Pippen

now, take what you know about Lebron James and how basically everyone shrinks playing with him and tell me you don't think that modest 16ppg wouldn't be 20ppg easy without Michael Jordan soaking up all those scoring opportunities. that's not something that can be treated as fact but come on, you are not dense.

then you add in his incredible defense, and yes he was incredible on the defensive end. excellent rebounder for his position, don't lose sight of the fact that MJ was awfully tough competition for rebounds as well. blocked shots and had an extraordinary nose for the ball. a total force on that end.

there are only 3 players in history BTW who averaged > 1.95 spg and > 0.7 bpg.

Michael Jordan
Jerry West
Scottie Pippen

You keep saying comparing Jordan taking opportunities away from Pippen but he really didn't Pip was the primary ball handler on Chicago. Teams dared Pippen to take jump shots to try to keep the ball out of micheal's hands. W/O MJ in the middle of his prime he went from 19 a game to 22 and then back to 19 in the year Jordan missed 2/3 rds the season. Then he went from 19 to 14 after MJ retired. I don't think you watched. He just wasn't a good scorer outside of transition. The stats you are throwing out show nothing other then the fact that he was unusually versatile- not many guys get that many rebounds and that many assists. He was a excellent wing defender that never won a defense player of the year award and never deserved one in an era dominated defensively by great defensive centers. A #2 with a good floor game, and excellent defense who during his teams 2nd 3 peat shot under 40% for the playoffs. Top 25 of the 90's sure but not all time or close to it

Jeffy25
05-21-2018, 11:28 AM
What's the argument that Lebron > Oscar?

Greatest playoff numbers ever, by a good distance
More career points, rebounds, 3 time NBA Champ, 3 time Finals MVP, 14 time all-star, 4 time MVP in a full league

Oscar has 12 time all star, 1 MVP, 1 time NBA Champ, more assists (for now)

And he showed up when there were 8 teams in the entire league, and he never played in a league with more than 17 teams in it.

There are more than twice as many guys in the NBA today as there were when Oscar played, during the track meet era, and his numbers are sill lesser than James.

There is no comparison.

IKnowHoops
05-21-2018, 12:51 PM
Pretty undeniable at this point. Anyone who doesn't have these 5 here, I wouldn't bother reading the rest.



Also correct



Here's where you start to go off the rails.

11. Russell
12. Moses
13. Oscar
14. Dr. J
15. West




16. Robinson
17. Malone
18. Garnett
19. Barkley
20. Wade




21. Dirk
22. Isiah
23. Pippen
24. Durant
25. Stockton

Thank you. Drob disrespect kills me

IKnowHoops
05-21-2018, 12:56 PM
1.Bron
2.Mike
3. Shaq
4. Kareem
5. Wilt
6. Dream
7. Drob
8. Durant
9. Magic
10.Curry
11. KG

Peak Impact IMO

Jamiecballer
05-21-2018, 01:11 PM
You keep saying comparing Jordan taking opportunities away from Pippen but he really didn't Pip was the primary ball handler on Chicago. Teams dared Pippen to take jump shots to try to keep the ball out of micheal's hands.
This is true of course. It doesn't mean however that as the best player on a team, as he would have been on the majority of the teams in the league, that he would not have accrued plenty more scoring opportunities and had more plays drawn up for him. This is about as obvious as it gets.


W/O MJ in the middle of his prime he went from 19 a game to 22 and then back to 19 in the year Jordan missed 2/3rds the season.
This is not actually the case. The season MJ played 17 games scottie still averaged 21.4.



Then he went from 19 to 14 after MJ retired.
Well yeah, but have you forgotten about the fact that he missed half of the 97-98 season with a back injury? Or the fact that he moved on from the Bulls to join Charles Barkley and Hakeem Olajuwon? Then he moved on to the Blazers who were loaded with young talent. He is a natural facilitator who moved from a HOF duo, to a HOF trio, and finally to a young team with lots of talent, all as his age advanced and ability to play 80 games declined.

IMO You can pretty much trace the beginning of his decline to his first major injury, and a back one at that. How many guys can you think of that dealt with a major back injury who were the same or better after? and he was in his early 30's to boot.

I don't think you watched. He just wasn't a good scorer outside of transition.
Of course I watched. I'm 39, that puts my basketball education as a young man right in the middle of Jordans era. I don't know what the tv options were like where you lived but in Toronto with no team you watched whatever was played on the major sports networks on saturday and sunday. It was always MJ and the Bulls.

Bartlee23
05-21-2018, 01:12 PM
Thank you. Drob disrespect kills me

I think he has him at 16?

ewing
05-21-2018, 01:23 PM
This is true of course. It doesn't mean however that as the best player on a team, as he would have been on the majority of the teams in the league, that he would not have accrued plenty more scoring opportunities and had more plays drawn up for him. This is about as obvious as it gets.


This is not actually the case. The season MJ played 17 games scottie still averaged 21.4.



Well yeah, but have you forgotten about the fact that he missed half of the 97-98 season with a back injury? Or the fact that he moved on from the Bulls to join Charles Barkley and Hakeem Olajuwon? Then he moved on to the Blazers who were loaded with young talent.

IMO You can pretty much trace the beginning of his decline to his first major injury, and a back one at that. How many guys can you think of that dealt with a major back injury who were the same or better after? and he was in his early 30's to boot.

Of course I watched. I'm 39, that puts my basketball education as a young man right in the middle of Jordans era. I don't know what the tv options were like where you lived but in Toronto with no team you watched whatever was played on the major sports networks on saturday and sunday. It was always MJ and the Bulls.

With and without Jordan he had similar #s. as the man without the Bulls adding offensive weapons Pip scored at around the same rate. He just wasn't a great scorer. Again, very good defender, good floor game, good in transition. Not a legit #1 option and not a guy you could depend on for buckets b/c he wasn't a good scorer in the 1/2 court. He was a very good basketball player but a 7 time all star who finished his career averaging 16 and 6 and isn't a top 25 player

NYKalltheway
05-21-2018, 01:50 PM
Greatest playoff numbers ever, by a good distance
More career points, rebounds, 3 time NBA Champ, 3 time Finals MVP, 14 time all-star, 4 time MVP in a full league

Oscar has 12 time all star, 1 MVP, 1 time NBA Champ, more assists (for now)

And he showed up when there were 8 teams in the entire league, and he never played in a league with more than 17 teams in it.

There are more than twice as many guys in the NBA today as there were when Oscar played, during the track meet era, and his numbers are sill lesser than James.

There is no comparison.

What are their head to head stats then?

Jamiecballer
05-21-2018, 02:49 PM
With and without Jordan he had similar #s. as the man without the Bulls adding offensive weapons Pip scored at around the same rate. He just wasn't a great scorer. Again, very good defender, good floor game, good in transition. Not a legit #1 option and not a guy you could depend on for buckets b/c he wasn't a good scorer in the 1/2 court. He was a very good basketball player but a 7 time all star who finished his career averaging 16 and 6 and isn't a top 25 playerI don't know where I would put him tbh.

Sent from my SM-A520W using Tapatalk

ewing
05-21-2018, 03:02 PM
I don't know where I would put him tbh.

Sent from my SM-A520W using Tapatalk

These things are hard to do but he stands out a guy that doesn't belong with that group. That group is guys that were number 1 options with 10 plus all stars games, MVPs etc. maybe top 50 I'm really not sure.

FlashBolt
05-21-2018, 03:21 PM
NYkalltheway thinks Big O is better than Bron. Ignore his posts

IKnowHoops
05-21-2018, 03:29 PM
I think he has him at 16?

The original quote forgot him, but he admitted he forgot him. Drob is my fav player. I admit a small small bias, but dude is super underrated. He was as dominant as any center ever in his absolute Prime.

IKnowHoops
05-21-2018, 03:30 PM
Oscar was a better player than Lebron is. That's the only argument that matters.

Oscar disagrees with you.

Jeffy25
05-21-2018, 04:25 PM
What are their head to head stats then?

How is that an argument against LeBron?

Because if that's all you got, I'll take your concession.

FlashBolt
05-21-2018, 04:31 PM
How is that an argument against LeBron?

Because if that's all you got, I'll take your concession.

I'm surprised you're even willing to entertain it. How does one watch basketball, claim to know as much as he does, and come to the conclusion that The Big O was better than leBron?

europagnpilgrim
05-21-2018, 05:05 PM
Oscar disagrees with you.


so should we appeal to Oscar's authority?

europagnpilgrim
05-21-2018, 05:08 PM
I'm surprised you're even willing to entertain it. How does one watch basketball, claim to know as much as he does, and come to the conclusion that The Big O was better than leBron?

Are you comparing just sheer numbers or commercial / athlete net worth? I mean didn't Oscar basically avg a triple double his first 6 - 8 yrs? I would go with the bigger player since they both flirt or get nightly triple doubles

Dr J. thinks Oscar is better, or has him in his top / best / fav 5 players ever

just because someone doesn't choose Bron doesn't mean they know any less, its what they like

People choose players who they like all the time on here over superior players, some people just love Stockton / Nash so much they view them better / more dominant than Zeke / Iverson and other day 1 ''better'' players

europagnpilgrim
05-21-2018, 05:10 PM
Dude, come the hell on. No way you actually believe the stuff you type.

Even if we just took the raw stats of Oscar playing in a track meet with no three's, no international players, and the sport was hardly professional at the time. LeBron is still whooping him every where.

LeBron, Kareem, and Jordan. Top 3 ever, no matter the criteria. How you rank those three, how you tier them, etc is a discussion, but nobody else really belongs in that top 3 consideration (maybe Wilt, but that seems wrong considering the era)

Oscar is around the 15thish player of all time, according to every one else on this list. LeBron, safely in the top 3. What is your argument for Oscar over LeBron?


Its Wilt


then


the



rest

europagnpilgrim
05-21-2018, 05:12 PM
Greatest playoff numbers ever, by a good distance
More career points, rebounds, 3 time NBA Champ, 3 time Finals MVP, 14 time all-star, 4 time MVP in a full league

Oscar has 12 time all star, 1 MVP, 1 time NBA Champ, more assists (for now)

And he showed up when there were 8 teams in the entire league, and he never played in a league with more than 17 teams in it.

There are more than twice as many guys in the NBA today as there were when Oscar played, during the track meet era, and his numbers are sill lesser than James.

There is no comparison.

have you ever thought about the excess of teams make a league weaker?

you make it seem like more teams the more stronger, I feel its the opposite, like a music label having 8 solid platinum acts vs. 30 acts with 3 going platinum and the rest avg.

that's what Bron is playing in, do you watch his games at all to see the proof of how incompetent defense is today for like 90percent of the league, 10 percent play team d

europagnpilgrim
05-21-2018, 05:15 PM
NYkalltheway thinks Big O is better than Bron. Ignore his posts

Flashinthepan thinks Bron is better than everyone, ignore all the above

FlashBolt
05-21-2018, 05:25 PM
Flashinthepan thinks Bron is better than everyone, ignore all the above

euro is a senile old man who receives a walking cane for Christmas as a present. This is the same old man who thinks Iverson is on the same level as other all-time greats because his lone NBA achievement was leading a team to the NBA Finals where he proceeded to be dismantled in five games.

europagnpilgrim
05-21-2018, 05:26 PM
is it? it's the exact same thing? my sample size is enormous, and includes the productivity of an entire career. look, i get it, if the list of players that came up when you run a filter of 16ppg, 6rpg, 5apg was

Michael Jordan
Boobie Gibson
Oscar Robertson
Scott Padgett
Rick Barry
Robert Horry
Magic Johnson
Amir Johnson
Scottie Pippen

it would be far less impactful. but it isn't.

Michael Jordan
LeBron James
Oscar Robertson
Larry Bird
Rick Barry
Russell Westbrook
Clyde Drexler
Magic Johnson
Scottie Pippen

you don't show up in this company unless you possess an extremely diverse and rare combination of skills. how about this statline

> 15.9 ppg
> 5.9 rpg
> 4.9 apg
> 1.95 spg
> 0.7 bpg

that combination is so unbelievably rare that it has shown up exactly twice in NBA history. Michael Jordan & Scottie Pippen.

at the end of the day, people are going to get hung up on the 16ppg as if that is somehow pedestrian, but for a (long) career? that includes the growth and decline phases? it's not. 16ppg for a career is something only 200 players in the history of the game can claim, and clearly Pippen was suppressed in counting numbers by the great MJ.

Iverson played 15(really 12 full) and is like top 5 - 7 all time PPG for regular season with the company of Jordan / Wilt / Bron / KD / and I think West / Baylor, so that is a huge sample size

Iverson is 2nd PPG in playoffs history, I know he didn't play a huge volume of games but hey they say its the biggest stage so he showed up for most part

the guys mentioned in the top PPG in league and playoff history are highly regarded unless you are named Iverson, poor Iverson, he not only got blackballed by the nba but it trickled over to the casual fanatic

so something that is so rare boosts you up right? how often do players get 10 steals or more in a playoff game? Iverson is in rare company

at the end of the day 16ppg is solid especially if you bring the other tools to the table like Pippen did, another thing about Pippen is that if you go back and watch those playoffs runs, especially the first 3peat, he would come up with the most timely crucial baskets but they weren't buzzer beaters so he never got the glory for it, but they were back breaking type buckets, the same type Iverson use to get over and over, sometimes we call them ''nail in the coffin'', Iverson hit many of those, he was super clutch

I am glad you posted Pippen scoring avg, because had Mckie and Snow each avg. 16ppg for their careers with AI over there that would have been something to work with and then I would trash AI for his play, but once you flip that valuable coin over and realize that both Mckie and Snow avg. a combined 13ppg for their careers really just stamps my package for approval and delivery

its rare to find a player 5'10'' that is clutch, can get buckets like Wilt / Jordan and show up in postseason with mckie and snow and baby korver and iggy as his ''support''

its rare you find a superstar starving for team help and still reach a Finals appearance, its rare, only players I can think of are Dream / Dirk / Bron who has done something like that, and I would have to discount Dream 2nd title since they acquired Drexler.

ewing
05-21-2018, 05:35 PM
I was just using something basic to counter what you or whoever wrote, it is exactly what you are doing just diff. play with words I guess

I would never have sex with these media / tv 'supermodel gender benders', it is not a great accomplishment for a alpha male / man to sleep with a gender bender MTF, that is an abomination according to the sacred HolyBible scriptures, but I am sure you look at these supermodels like Brady ''wife''(I don't mean it literally) and say wow what a supermodel, until you start looking down that rabbit hole

so was Iverson being 2nd in PPG have to do with more of who his teammates were or did he just chuck shots up with 2 other HOF / All star teammates? show me the outcome without your pride involved

WTF are you talking about?

europagnpilgrim
05-21-2018, 05:37 PM
from what I have come across is that all this debating about this 'male' athlete and so on may not even be a natural male at all, and vice versa watching 'female' athletes

we could be sitting up here debating about a bunch of tall / short born females who morphed into what we are debating constantly over on here, that's the crazy **** about all this madness

keep both and your third eye open, its right smack 'dead' in your face

europagnpilgrim
05-21-2018, 05:39 PM
WTF are you talking about?

he made the reply and used a supermodel as example and I went in on what I said about how I wouldn't use / drug a supermodel for sex, the supermodel you guys are talking about are born men / male

no supermodel is a true nature female that is on tv and has A - List fame / money, none

none of those things have child bearing hips, have you ever looked closely at these so called super models / miss universe / beauty pageants? they are all a bunch of RuPauls running wild around here

so that's what the Hell I am talking about

are you not entertained?

Jamiecballer
05-21-2018, 06:42 PM
yes, its true, i brought up the supermodel sex

Jeffy25
05-21-2018, 07:17 PM
have you ever thought about the excess of teams make a league weaker?

you make it seem like more teams the more stronger, I feel its the opposite, like a music label having 8 solid platinum acts vs. 30 acts with 3 going platinum and the rest avg.

that's what Bron is playing in, do you watch his games at all to see the proof of how incompetent defense is today for like 90percent of the league, 10 percent play team d

If you actually think the defenders that are chasing down his fade-a-ways and that are being bulldozed into the basket by him are just being lazy or can't defend him, you aren't watching his games.

How many times does he makes shots with hands in his face? Think Oscar had to deal with that sort of intensity and training on defense? No way.

There are way more highly effective and talented players in the league today than there were 50 years ago. That's not even debatable. Of course there are more weaker players, but those guys get filtered out pretty quickly. Oscar was playing in an era where guys had part time jobs in the off-seasons.

WaDe03
05-21-2018, 07:54 PM
Oscar isnít even better than Wade. He averaged a trip dub against bums playing at a very high pace. Westbrook averaging a trip dub is more impressive, you all definitely over hype some of these older guys like Oscar and West.

YAALREADYKNO
05-21-2018, 08:58 PM
Top 25 nba players
1.Jordan
2.Lebron
3.Magic
4.Kareem
5.Shaq
6.Kobe
7.Duncan
8.Bird
9.Wilt
10.Hakeem
11.Russell
12.Moses
13.West
14.Dirk
15.Oscar
16.Garnett
17.Wade
18.Malone
19.Barkley
20.Durant
21.Robinson
22.Erving
23.Thomas
24.Pippen
25.Kidd

NYKalltheway
05-22-2018, 10:48 AM
How is that an argument against LeBron?

Because if that's all you got, I'll take your concession.

No, that's not all I got. That's just all the evidence needed to show that a bunch of numbers mean ****. They're not comparable, they're inadmissible in any serious basketball discussion. You have to make this comparison by knowing the players, not by reading their resume or a spreadsheet. If you think Lebron's inflated RS numbers and inflated Playoffs numbers against the weakest competition in playoff history (Eastern Conf. first two rounds since his career started) is the best argument you can make, then you obviously do not have the ability to understand how a basketball player can be judged and compared with someone else.

NYKalltheway
05-22-2018, 10:53 AM
There are way more highly effective and talented players in the league today than there were 50 years ago. That's not even debatable. Of course there are more weaker players, but those guys get filtered out pretty quickly. Oscar was playing in an era where guys had part time jobs in the off-seasons.

Manhandling was pretty much legal D back in the day... It became soft in the late 70s. And late 70s half of the defensive possessions would end up as technicals in today's game.

KingstonHawke
05-22-2018, 12:18 PM
"Championships, peak, playoff performance, longevity, and era"

Limiting the criteria to this makes no sense other than as an excuse to put Jordan at the top of the list.

Winning is important, but championships are a team accomplishment. Also this idea that playoff performance made the list but regular season performances didn't is crazy. It's as silly as when people bring up Jordan's finals record but ignore the times he didn't advance to the finals. It all matters, we can't cherrypick.

I'd of added...

1. How good would that team be if he got hurt.
2. How good would that team be if he was replaced with the second best player that year at his position.
3. How good would that team be if he was replaced with the other players at his position on this list.
4. Offensive versatility. Must I build a team around him, or could he thrive in different situations.
5. Defensive versatility. Same idea.
6. Individual skill set. I grade out and compare legends the same way I do prospects entering the draft. And just treat them as if they were going to a team with no players or coaches. Who would I want.

And then your list doesn't make sense even given your own criteria before adding my own amendments.

How does Bird get rated so high when he had very little longevity, and in an era that didn't have nearly the talent that later eras did? I get the nostalgia, but do we all realize that the league is much more talent dense now than ever before? Demonstrably so? We may not love specfic trends, like bigs that run and face up instead of pound the low block. But to deny that there's more talent in the league today would be to deny the evolution of at least 10 different sciences relevent to the sport. Things like nutrution science, exercise science, shoe and other clothing advancements, etc.

You've got Barkley on that list over Kevin Durant. Kevin Durant would've embarrased Barkley everytime they played if they had to share the court. Barkley was good, but he's wildy overrated because of his personality. Go look up his shooting stats. He's one of the worse effiency three point takers of all time. And he was a below average defender his entire career.

I love Magic but he's another one that get's terribly overrated. He was great and versatile but he also was slow and a horrible outside shooter for a PG. He's not better than Kobe, Duncan, and Dream.

ewing
05-22-2018, 12:43 PM
"Championships, peak, playoff performance, longevity, and era"

Limiting the criteria to this makes no sense other than as an excuse to put Jordan at the top of the list.

Winning is important, but championships are a team accomplishment. Also this idea that playoff performance made the list but regular season performances didn't is crazy. It's as silly as when people bring up Jordan's finals record but ignore the times he didn't advance to the finals. It all matters, we can't cherrypick.

I'd of added...

1. How good would that team be if he got hurt.
2. How good would that team be if he was replaced with the second best player that year at his position.
3. How good would that team be if he was replaced with the other players at his position on this list.
4. Offensive versatility. Must I build a team around him, or could he thrive in different situations.
5. Defensive versatility. Same idea.
6. Individual skill set. I grade out and compare legends the same way I do prospects entering the draft. And just treat them as if they were going to a team with no players or coaches. Who would I want.

And then your list doesn't make sense even given your own criteria before adding my own amendments.

How does Bird get rated so high when he had very little longevity, and in an era that didn't have nearly the talent that later eras did? I get the nostalgia, but do we all realize that the league is much more talent dense now than ever before? Demonstrably so? We may not love specfic trends, like bigs that run and face up instead of pound the low block. But to deny that there's more talent in the league today would be to deny the evolution of at least 10 different sciences relevent to the sport. Things like nutrution science, exercise science, shoe and other clothing advancements, etc.

You've got Barkley on that list over Kevin Durant. Kevin Durant would've embarrased Barkley everytime they played if they had to share the court. Barkley was good, but he's wildy overrated because of his personality. Go look up his shooting stats. He's one of the worse effiency three point takers of all time. And he was a below average defender his entire career.

I love Magic but he's another one that get's terribly overrated. He was great and versatile but he also was slow and a horrible outside shooter for a PG. He's not better than Kobe, Duncan, and Dream.

Imagine how good Bird would be with baggy shorts


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Jeffy25
05-22-2018, 01:45 PM
No, that's not all I got. That's just all the evidence needed to show that a bunch of numbers mean ****. They're not comparable, they're inadmissible in any serious basketball discussion. You have to make this comparison by knowing the players, not by reading their resume or a spreadsheet. If you think Lebron's inflated RS numbers and inflated Playoffs numbers against the weakest competition in playoff history (Eastern Conf. first two rounds since his career started) is the best argument you can make, then you obviously do not have the ability to understand how a basketball player can be judged and compared with someone else.

You act like we are comparing two different sports here or something. We aren't talking about the greatest cricket player ever vs the greatest NASCAR driver ever.

They played the same sport. The era is different, and the opponents are different. But LeBron has been crushing a significantly more challenging league for 15 years. Oscar crushed much weaker era, for what....11 years?

You are acting like Oscar was playing better playoff competition, that's a joke. The 64 76ers are not better than what LeBron has had to manage and beat.


You being completely alone in this thinking should probably tell you plenty.

Anyone who has LeBron outside of the top 3 has a major bias or hatred. Objectively, he's clearly there.

ODB13
05-22-2018, 02:47 PM
If you guys just started watching basketball, you would think this is the greatest era, too.

Jeffy25
05-22-2018, 03:03 PM
If you guys just started watching basketball, you would think this is the greatest era, too.

Stop with this nonsense trolling. Nobody said this is the greatest era. It's clearly the best and most athletic though.

And in 15 years that will be as well.

It's the same thing in every single sport.

NYKalltheway
05-22-2018, 03:08 PM
Anyone who has LeBron outside of the top 3 has a major bias or hatred. Objectively, he's clearly there.

Actually given the fact that I don't give a **** about the NBA, don't live in the USA and have no concern over what sounds popular and what isn't and given my background and present in the sport, as well as the fact that I'm probably more aware of most eras than many here, I'd say I'm one of the more qualified persons to comment on this without bias. Impartiality is a very important thing that most people lack. I don't give a damn if Jordan's legacy is at stake. I didn't even like Michael Jordan. Lebron played for the obscure Cavs, no one gives a **** about the Cavs, sorry. Lebron got universal hate for moving to Miami and he's back to obscure Cleveland that's know around the world as the city Americans make fun of. Kobe fans were also very annoying in trying to make us believe that Kobe was GOAT or a top 5 player.

Anyone who has Lebron in his top 10 is biased. Anyone who has Lebron in his top 3 and doesn't get paid to say it has no business talking about the sport.

Jeffy25
05-22-2018, 03:15 PM
Actually given the fact that I don't give a **** about the NBA, don't live in the USA and have no concern over what sounds popular and what isn't and given my background and present in the sport, as well as the fact that I'm probably more aware of most eras than many here, I'd say I'm one of the more qualified persons to comment on this without bias. Impartiality is a very important thing that most people lack. I don't give a damn if Jordan's legacy is at stake. I didn't even like Michael Jordan. Lebron played for the obscure Cavs, no one gives a **** about the Cavs, sorry. Lebron got universal hate for moving to Miami and he's back to obscure Cleveland that's know around the world as the city Americans make fun of. Kobe fans were also very annoying in trying to make us believe that Kobe was GOAT or a top 5 player.

Anyone who has Lebron in his top 10 is biased. Anyone who has Lebron in his top 3 and doesn't get paid to say it has no business talking about the sport.

I don't even have a favorite team or player(s). No teams exist anywhere near where I live or ever have. So I don't have any bias either.

And I strongly disagree with your love affair over the past.

It's impossible to watch LeBron and then go back and rewatch the tapes of the Celtics and Lakers battles and think LeBron isn't at the very least competitive with both squads on an individual level (probably not team) and likely better. He's clearly heads and tails better than Magic and Bird, and is playing significantly longer.

Go back and rewatch all of those Celtics and Lakers finals. Then watch all of LeBron's playoff games. He's clearly superior, and doing it for a much longer stretch.


There are things I dislike about LeBron. He takes the foot off the pedal all the time, has a prima dona personality, and I hate that the NBA lets guys like him and Harden and others ram into defensive players and then get a shooting foul drawn.

But Bird and Jordan weren't hitting step back 3's, throwing cross court to an open man after drawing the double team, and then locking up the opponents leading scorer on such a consistent basis.


Kobe is like 11th best ever. Bron is top 3. Jordan still a top the mantle, for now.


I do love your debate/argument tactics. And your grasp at straws and appeals to authority.

It's what old men do in sports. Your experience speaks to your expertise and validity of opinions, right? It's a wonder why elsewhere in the world being the manager of a company for 30 years and then being replaced by a younger and more efficient and brighter young guy, just can't ever happen, right? And it lead to great results.

It's as if, experience matters, but it's not the ultimate measure of knowledge.

bklynny67
05-22-2018, 03:41 PM
Wade being top 15 on any list is an incredible joke. The rest of the Ops list is pretty good.

Wade is not even top 25, let along 13th. I think few, if any, educated NBA fans would agree with him being anywhere close to 13th.

ewing
05-22-2018, 03:43 PM
yes, its true, i brought up the supermodel sex

Tell me, when you look inside yourself, do you see a man or a woman?

NYKalltheway
05-22-2018, 03:50 PM
But Bird and Jordan weren't hitting step back 3's,

Bird probably invented the step back 3...




throwing cross court to an open man after drawing the double team,

Did you actually ever see Larry Bird?



and then locking up the opponents leading scorer on such a consistent basis.


Did you also happen to see Michael Jordan?

And when did Lebron lock up anyone? How overrated is this guy now? He was never an elite defender, he was just a big body that the new rules dictate that you cannot touch because the media loves him.

Jeffy25
05-22-2018, 03:53 PM
Bird probably invented the step back 3...
And it's been perfected in this era

Bird never took more than 3 3's per game

You can blame his era. Bron took 5 3's per game this year alone.


Did you actually ever see Larry Bird?
Yes, he was an incredible passer, and it's a ton of fun to watch his highlight videos of him faking guys out and making smooth passes.

If there is a favorite player for me, I was born near French Lick. Bird was the guy to root for.




Did you also happen to see Michael Jordan?

His entire career, but yes, paid great attention in the 90's

Jordan didn't lock up the opponent leading scorer. Harper, Rodman, Pippen, etc all helped more than a little with that.


And when did Lebron lock up anyone? How overrated is this guy now? He was never an elite defender, he was just a big body that the new rules dictate that you cannot touch because the media loves him.

When he cares, he locks guys up. So basically, in the playoffs.

I don't watch or listen to any media and don't listen to the broadcasters during the games because they are super annoying.

It's not a media driven bias. It's my eyes, backed up and supported by all of the numbers. Confirming my eyes.

You have your eyes, I have my eyes. But I also have the data, and you don't.

NYKalltheway
05-22-2018, 04:00 PM
And it's been perfected in this era

Bird never took more than 3 3's per game

You can blame his era. Bron took 5 3's per game this year alone.

Yes, he was an incredible passer, and it's a ton of fun to watch his highlight videos of him faking guys out and making smooth passes.

If there is a favorite player for me, I was born near French Lick. Bird was the guy to root for.





His entire career, but yes, paid great attention in the 90's

Jordan didn't lock up the opponent leading scorer. Harper, Rodman, Pippen, etc all helped more than a little with that.



When he cares, he locks guys up. So basically, in the playoffs.

I don't watch or listen to any media and don't listen to the broadcasters during the games because they are super annoying.

It's not a media driven bias. It's my eyes, backed up and supported by all of the numbers. Confirming my eyes.

You have your eyes, I have my eyes. But I also have the data, and you don't.

No, I have the data, too. But being in charge of a basketball team has made me to actually be able to read that data and know when it's saying BS.
And I also didn't need to be in that position to know that an 80s stats sheet cannot be compared to a 90s stats sheet or with a 2010s stats sheet... It actually surprises people to hear that!

No comment on Rodman and Harper helping Jordan on D. That was like for 3.5 seasons.

ODB13
05-22-2018, 04:59 PM
Bird probably invented the step back 3...



Did you actually ever see Larry Bird?



Did you also happen to see Michael Jordan?

And when did Lebron lock up anyone? How overrated is this guy now? He was never an elite defender, he was just a big body that the new rules dictate that you cannot touch because the media loves him.

He's new to the game and figuring it out on spreadsheets. Let him do his thing. He will get there someday.

papipapsmanny
05-22-2018, 06:19 PM
His entire career, but yes, paid great attention in the 90's

Jordan didn't lock up the opponent leading scorer. Harper, Rodman, Pippen, etc all helped more than a little with that.

When he cares, he locks guys up. So basically, in the playoffs.

I don't watch or listen to any media and don't listen to the broadcasters during the games because they are super annoying.

It's not a media driven bias. It's my eyes, backed up and supported by all of the numbers. Confirming my eyes.

You have your eyes, I have my eyes. But I also have the data, and you don't.

For the Bold, not not really, he has always been overrated as a defender and is no where close to MJs level defensively. Watch Terry blow by him in the mavericks series over and over, or Jalen Brown blowing by him constantly in this series. Some come from behind blocks doesn't make him a really good defender.

(this seemed like an MJ vs Lebron thing so I will stick with that).

Jordan was 20-7 against 50+ win teams in the playoffs, I believe Lebron is now 10 and 6? so he hasn't even played 20 50+ teams in the playoffs. So that's called context.

Accolades are all in Jordan's favor... so I guess have have to stick to stats, and I'll also pretend it isn't a bit easier to score in this era or that it is less physical.

I will use Jordan's numbers in Chicago, since that was when he was what MJ really was. (if you want to use a 40 year old scoring 20+ points a game after 3 years our of the league as an argument... go ahead... seems like a huge reach to me)

Per 36 -

Points: 29.4 - Assists: 5 - Rebounds: 5.9 - Steals 2.2 - FG%: 50.5% - 3P%: 33.2% - FT%: 83.8% (Jordan)

Points: 25.9 - Assists: 6.8 - Rebounds: 7 - Steals 1.5 - FG%: 51.4% - 3P%: 34.6% - FT%: 73.8% (Lebron)

And before someone tries to bring it up those stats for James don't include his first two seasons... so they start when he was 21.

Next thing that will be brought up is Jordan was not as well rounded and couldn't put up the all around stats that Lebron does (James is essentially the point much of the time)

... even though in the 24 games that Collins moved MJ to PG Jordan averaged 30.4 Points, 10.7 Assists, 9.2 Rebounds, and 2.4 Steals and had a triple double in 10 times in 11 games.....

So at the worst for MJ there stats are a wash..., then you throw the rings, the finals MVPs, all that stuff in along with the playoff stats.... how can you then still pick Lebron? I really just don't see it.


(apologize now for grammar errors, did not edit for spelling)

YAALREADYKNO
05-22-2018, 11:06 PM
For the Bold, not not really, he has always been overrated as a defender and is no where close to MJs level defensively. Watch Terry blow by him in the mavericks series over and over, or Jalen Brown blowing by him constantly in this series. Some come from behind blocks doesn't make him a really good defender.

(this seemed like an MJ vs Lebron thing so I will stick with that).

Jordan was 20-7 against 50+ win teams in the playoffs, I believe Lebron is now 10 and 6? so he hasn't even played 20 50+ teams in the playoffs. So that's called context.

Accolades are all in Jordan's favor... so I guess have have to stick to stats, and I'll also pretend it isn't a bit easier to score in this era or that it is less physical.

I will use Jordan's numbers in Chicago, since that was when he was what MJ really was. (if you want to use a 40 year old scoring 20+ points a game after 3 years our of the league as an argument... go ahead... seems like a huge reach to me)

Per 36 -

Points: 29.4 - Assists: 5 - Rebounds: 5.9 - Steals 2.2 - FG%: 50.5% - 3P%: 33.2% - FT%: 83.8% (Jordan)

Points: 25.9 - Assists: 6.8 - Rebounds: 7 - Steals 1.5 - FG%: 51.4% - 3P%: 34.6% - FT%: 73.8% (Lebron)

And before someone tries to bring it up those stats for James don't include his first two seasons... so they start when he was 21.

Next thing that will be brought up is Jordan was not as well rounded and couldn't put up the all around stats that Lebron does (James is essentially the point much of the time)

... even though in the 24 games that Collins moved MJ to PG Jordan averaged 30.4 Points, 10.7 Assists, 9.2 Rebounds, and 2.4 Steals and had a triple double in 10 times in 11 games.....

So at the worst for MJ there stats are a wash..., then you throw the rings, the finals MVPs, all that stuff in along with the playoff stats.... how can you then still pick Lebron? I really just don't see it.


(apologize now for grammar errors, did not edit for spelling)

Damn you should send this to Shannon sharpe, nick wright, and Colin cowherd

WaDe03
05-23-2018, 01:08 PM
Wade being top 15 on any list is an incredible joke. The rest of the Ops list is pretty good.

Wade is not even top 25, let along 13th. I think few, if any, educated NBA fans would agree with him being anywhere close to 13th.

Heís closer to 15 than he is to 25 for sure. Lmao at you saying he isnít top 25. Name 25 players with a better peak, 3 championships, and the 2nd greatest finals performance weíve ever seen. Donít worry, Iíll wait.

WaDe03
05-23-2018, 01:21 PM
.

Chronz
05-27-2018, 02:04 AM
1. Its the same thing? really Sherlock? you meaning to tell me that TMAC / Pierce / Dirk combo is same as trading for Mckie and Snow? damn, now I know the incompetent characters are for real, damn
Ughh... you're not getting it. I dont know how else to say it but you're arguing BS nobody ever said. Lets just move on from this point.



2. They were mates for 7yrs, the 2001 season was 1 year, he had Mutombo for 1yr and a 1 / 2, damn you Iverson bashers are sure incompetent, speaking on **** you have no clue about and Mutombo was a slow footed 35yr old when Iverson got him, wow, just that you mention a 35yr old Mutombo is something else, what happen to Mutombo very next season they put in 3 second defense rule? best sidekick?
Yes, I mentioned Mutombo for that one year. Not sure what else you're trying to get at, AI put up inferior numbers the year following the Finals too. Both dealt with more injuries as well. I dont see why you seem to think being 35 years old is suppose to matter more than him being the DPOY and being a productive force in the loffs. Mutombo was still impressive enough that New Jersey thought he was the missing piece remember. He got hurt that year, wound up having very productive seasons with NY and Houston before getting injured for the last time. I'd say he aged gracefully considering he outlasted Iverson lol.


well Ratliff got traded, you know a fast athletic rim running big who compliments players like Bron / Iverson better , he failed less that year but we are talking about careers right? so how do you keep leaving off Mckie and Snow who was there for 7yrs out of 10yrs, that is a 70% clip, now last I checked that is a pretty high percentage, if a player is shooting that from the field it is looked at as the holy grail, well Iverson had those 6ppg scorers for the holy grail of his career in Philly, 70%TS, that is amazing he didn't complain to the front office, oh wait he did and wanted to play smaller / faster and they spinned it in the media as him wanting to leave and he never wanted to leave that dump hole of an org., once again how is that failing have two 6ppg scorers are your core for 70% of philly career(10 1 / 2 seasons)? are you that damn ignorant and mad at Iverson for saying he failed with Mckie and Snow? did Bron fail for having Boobie / Mo Will as his sidekicks? why did Bron leave Cavs first time? didn't Bron say he didn't want to have bad knees by 30? code phrase for ''I am getting the hell out of here with my version of mckie / snow and going to Wade / Riley / Bosh, better situation more winning, titles, same Bron. same way I looked at Iverson but he decided to stay and not leave after first extension expired, he kept re upping with the dumb org., I guess loyalty did exist at one point, Iverson is the poster boy for when loyalty goes bad as well, good for him
It would be best if you quoted me directly because you're all over the place with your fake stats. Please dont cite TS% if you have no actual data behind it. Iverson did fail because look at all the excuses you have to make for him. Again, I dont buy your theory, real superstars would've done better, hell, if you simply get a swing with size that eventually elite Philly defense gets better. Sadly, AI wasn't on that level.


3. Stackhouse was there and should have been 6th man but he wanted to chuck and they had new franchise player, so either Stack would have came off bench or we move him for pieces and focus on getting best talent / frontcourt players, Bowen would have been my SG / Defender / corner 3 guy or I would have tried to land a marksmen with range as backcourt help, anything better than what he had, L Brown built the team in his mold, not because Iverson wanted to shoot shots, that's the dumbest **** ever to try and explain to actual ball players, maybe to non ball players you can trick them but L Brown was on record saying he promised to draft Hughes, not Iverson made a promise, Brown the GM / Head Coach who made those mckie / snow trades to bring those players over, so it was L Brown team, cant you see that claiming you know about ball? that was all L Brown, why do you think Iverson was on the verge of 2000 trade to Pistons? because the team was L Brown, front office during those days really trumped the players, Brown had more clout so that team was built in his mold, Iverson just provided the scoring punch / minutes to make it work somewhat, still weak but AI was that guy, Facts

Larry Brown was brought in late, Im talking about everything the organization witnessed leading up to his hiring. L Brown was part of that vision. Yes I remember AI almost getting traded, that he was thought of as disposable doesn't help your case at all. And I agree with your stance on Stackhouse, doesn't change anything.


if you want to count T Thomas and Van Horn as trying, then damn go ahead its your free will, those were plan d type drafts, they shouldn't have been plan a type picks, but hey incompetent is as incompetent does, kudos to you for over ranking avg. players

Why wouldn't I? Its not like they had many options in the trade market, do you think teams just stick with it and never try? LOL, you keep trying to insult me but you're the only one who made the mistake of thinking Larry Hughes was a great piece for LeBron and forgot he got injured year 1. Sorry bud, the more you try to insult me the more confident I am that you overrate the **** out of AI.


4. Snow didn't get on the court(or barely) with Bron so what is that saying that he made it with Bron? Snow said in a interview / public record he had no job with Bron, Bron dominated / handled / pounded the ball all the time, Snow said with Iverson he had a job, come down and set up the play for Iverson to come off screen to shoot / attack, so once again your incompetent remarks about Snow are well just that, incompetent and holds not a ounce of water

He started every game for them one year and of course he played less as the years went on, dude was damn near retirement. I just brought him up as an example of a star playing better with him and not being as ineffective as Iverson. Its why the excuse doesn't hold water for true stars.



really, nothing is more selfish than chucking? Snow was avg 1.5ppg pre Sixers trade and you want to complain about a guy shooting? have you ever played meaningful ball ever? be honest with yourself because last I checked if a player was avg. 1.5ppg and then went and played with superstar player and his avg go up to 12 - 13ppg then that is the superstar player making that teammate ''better'' right? then why in the hell when it comes to Iverson no one on here says he took Snow avg from 1.5ppg to career high 12 - 13ppg? well as I have stated on here, incompetent fanatics of their own nba world, you guys watch the game from a diff. lens, non playing lens that is

a guy forced chucking shots who can score vs. letting 6ppg career scorers chuck, who you got? we know, you are going with the ''latter'', good for you Chronzy boy
Its impossible for a player not to score more when given that kind of minutes increase. Roles matter you know, should I blame AI for holding Stackhouse back when he scored 30PPG one year ? And your stats are all over the place here, he was at 1.5 and then averaged 3.9 in Philly. If you're going to cite his stats after then at least show his complete career average before. I know its nitpicking but its about being consistent and people trying to decieve with stats is a pet peave of mine.



5. So Iverson and his 16 assists vs. Raptors to send them to Conference finals is not making right play? Iverson had to sit out a game just to heal against Bucks after getting pounded and Jordan rules by other teams, so was that the right call / play by AI to heal and come back to help team win series? Iverson always made the right play, they called him for 90% of the time to shoot, so he did what they asked of him, they moved him to SG, he was drafted out of G'Town a PG, who could score and dish and won back to back Defensive Player of the Year in BigEast, stealing the ball, as he did for 3 straight yrs in the league leading in steals, not a big deal at all, I only mention FG percentage because that's the only dumb stat you and others try to mention to try and derail Iverson, you probably didn't like his dress code style as well, and probably got stiffed for an autograph

Nobody uses FG% anymore man, get with the times. Yes getting that many assists is usually indicative of great decision making, especially if he limits the turnovers or leads an efficient offense. Shame AI couldn't really do that at the level of true greats. Consistancy is what George Karl wanted from Iverson. He had some great years tho


in a big mans league the bigger guy should be more dominant, its just that Bron said Iverson play like his height so even Bron knows that if height were equal Iverson would **** on him and the league, Bron wont say that about Nash or Stockton or CP3 or any other little guy, they are not on that level

Karl hated him because he wasn't assist hunting like Miller, Melo / AI were the scorers and Smith was 3rd option, I guess AI should have tried to avg 10apg instead of the 7apg he gave them from the SG position, poor Iverson, cant do nothing right but be a 1st ballot HOF'er

and from the looks of it every player hated Karl, see how it ended in Sac town, that was just a small fire compared to how players legit hated him, I bet you missed that boat as well though.

Him being small is exactly what held him back.



6. what about Kukoc being out for Sixers? him and AI were playing real well together, if Ratliff doesn't get hurt then they are way better because he was the type of rim runner that would run all day and would have given Shaq fits, Shaq being 400lbs could outrun Mutombo slow footed self, so Bron had injuries to deal with and that Sixers team was injured as well, why do you think you say R Bell / K Ollie / McCullough in the Finals game 1? that was his other core after the main core in mckie / snow, do those sound like D League players or what? you don't know **** about basketball, sad to say

Given Shaq fits? LMFAO, Dikembe did such a great job that New Jersey thought he was the missing piece even after everything you said about him. Shaq would've ate that shrimp up for breakfast to a much larger degree. Theo never did anything worthy of that praise.



Iverson inherited 2x micro fracture in Webber, he got whatever was left of the injured big dog, who didn't play at all for them and somehow won a ring with the Spurs not playing either, Big Dog is better than Barkley and Malone because he has a ring and they don't, see how dumb that sounds?

so both inherited injured players, or does Lebron get the edge on that as well since you seem to love gloating about his shortcomings but act like Iverson was his own doing, which is clearly far from the F - actual truth
Thats been my point, both inherited **** and missed out on lots of talent. You can see why one player was far superior, there are alot of guys like that compared to AI. We dont have to focus on Bron if you want.


7. CP3 made the comment so we are going to stick to the actual sources mouth over any other opinion made by man / womb man,
Same here, everything I said came straight from the source AND I got the facts to back it.


no CP3 didn't add more, he stuck to the script and only diff. is the way they are built, Iverson wanted to pass but it wasn't in the cards,
LMFAO, **** no AI wasn't built to pass, if that were true he wouldn't be such a mediocre passer for a guy with the ball as much as him. His coaches have wanted him to play like a truer PG in the past and he couldn't space the floor well enough or consistently make the right reads. Iverson was a scorer thru and thru.


just like CP3 needed to score more for Clippers but it wasn't in the cards,
LOL, actually what he needed was the same thing every small player has had behind them in order to win, which is an elite defensive backing. Clippers routinely fielded an elite offense so long as CP3 was healthy.


being mentored and playing / mimicking game style is way diff. Crawford play a lot like AI, Green was mentored and was small like AI, playing out of position, that's about all the comparison I see. I mention these comments that these players make which would be more legit than you or me trying to figure out what this player is thinking, Jordan influenced a **** load of players but it doesn't make them the same type of player, I state this to show who that those who heavily influence players are dominant / legend / icons of the game, Jordan was a dominant player who players mimicked and wanted to be / play like, Iverson is in that ilk / realm, so if you cant see that then you are about as incompetent as they could ever get

Yeah, and MJ mimicked some inferior players too, guys like Skywalker weren't that special but MJ loved them growing up. So what?


8. too dumb to master his game or too stuck in his ways like players of old? like Jordan couldn't master his game and get Washington to playoffs? at was at his most efficient on back side of apex / career, pushing 33yrs of age and having most efficient career says more to the team talent of Sixers vs. Nuggets, AI would have shot 50% as a young stud given the proper scenario / pieces, easily

I cant imagine how, maybe in a TP role where he can score 20 PPG and get 5 assists, but he'd have to limit his turnovers. Still a far cry from the elite.


Iverson went from 30 shots per game to 18 per game with Nuggets, then even lower with Pistons at around 14 shots per game which would round out to 7 shots per half, now did AI master his lower shot selection or was he forced to take less shots because of his surrounding talent / system of play?
What are you arguing, nobody ever denied usage, the point remains hes not on that level of true greats no matter which of those you want to isolate. AI was an all-star but you're overrating him for sure.


did Stockton learn to master his game when he finally reached the Finals a decade plus later in his career? why didn't Stockton learn how to master the 'scoring' help game, you know the same 20ppg Pippen would give Jordan, Malone needed it from his sidekick HOF'er over assist hunting PG, Stockton couldn't master the art of scoring and ''passing'' needed for that series, Malone needed a Iverson / Zeke who could at any moment match Jordan bucket for bucket, Malone would have matched or trumped Pippen, who new ball game in that series only if Stockton could have mastered something other than super assist hunting, and he still didn't get his 13 - 15apg that he was accustomed to getting, he was too one dimensional

Nah , if you replaced Stockton with Iverson, Karl Malone scores less and the defense takes a hit since AI had to be paired with a true PG to run the offense he couldn't. They never make the Finals and AI gets kicked out of Utah. I dont view the game with the simplicity of "More chucking gets the job done".



Wizards used up Jordan and threw him away as well, guess AI / Jordan are one in the same

Nah, MJ got a retirement tour. AI got booted by a couple of teams before playing a few games with Philly outta respect.


9. why didn't he prove it? why did the late great C Daly said he went into the archives when he coached Orlando and threw the Jordan rules at Iverson? what more proof do you need?

Oh wow the Jordan rules? lol, defenses have loaded up more when they were allowed to zone. Besides, its not like the Jordan rules stopped them from getting swept when MJ had 1 all-star. AI would miss the playoffs altogether with that kind of talent.


why did he miss so much? go asked SAS who has stated many times on public tv about the 'Iverson shooting too much scenario'', he breaks it down in plain simple English, and you would still find something to knitpick about once you hear it. bad defense? since when did a PG guarding a SG ever amount to anything good for the PG, unless you are Oscar / Magic / Simmons / Bron size, Iverson had to guard and being guarding by guys 6 - 8 inches taller, you say that is bad defense?
Thats the point, its a flaw in his design. Hes a midget who has to play SG in that era, he'd do much better today tho.


when CP3 gets switched on taller players its bbq for the other player and isn't CP3 a 9x all defensive team player?
Actually, CP3 puts up FAR more of a fight defensively. Firstly hes usually guarding his position so the size mismatch plays less of a role, secondly, you really dont know jack about CP3 if you're comparing him to Iverson defensively. Lets put it this way, Iverson would never insist on taking on a guy like KD if a game was getting that desperate. CP3 DID : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opdFzn3teSA&feature=youtu.be

Neither CP3 nor AI could defend the paint but lets not get it twisted, only one of them really put his heart and intelligence into defense. AI just gambled and hoped his shot blockers saved his ***.


what is a respectable rate? did he get open looks like Fisher playing with Shaq or like others who play with Bron? or did Iverson have to create the 3 for himself? is shooting in the mid 30's a horrible percentage for 3's? did you even watch Iverson play ever? who created shots for him in Philly to take wide open?
A respectable rate is above league average. And to answer your question Iverson got plenty of set shot opportunities, teams just rarely ran those sets because he was such a ****** outside shooter. Its why with the EXACT SAME TEAM, Billups was able to maintain his 3pt %, whereas AI couldn't even help Detroit despite being taken off the ball. Cuz see, thats what shooters do, they dont need the excuses a chucker like AI needs. If AI could shoot the 3 ball at a high rate, he would have lasted alot longer in the NBA. I remember back in the day looking at set shot% off synergy, a guy like Melo ranked high but didn't get that many looks cuz of his playstyle and/or talent level too. Maybe playing with AI didn't help him as much as a true playmaker like Andre Miller. I do know when AI first got to Denver he and Melo didnt mesh and I do know one of Melo's worst playoff series of his prime was with Iverson. The 2 were just chuckers, chucking together.

More-Than-Most
05-27-2018, 05:54 AM
Heís closer to 15 than he is to 25 for sure. Lmao at you saying he isnít top 25. Name 25 players with a better peak, 3 championships, and the 2nd greatest finals performance weíve ever seen. Donít worry, Iíll wait.

peak isnt the end all be all or guys like Kobe/Duncan etc wouldnt be ahead of guys where they are.. Longevity matters and that is the one thing that hurts wade and its massive.

wade was great for what 6 of the 14 years he played?

hidalgo
05-28-2018, 05:13 AM
Michael Jordan
LeBron James (might as well put him here a few seasons early, he's getting here anyway)
Magic Johnson
Kareem
Bird
Duncan
Shaq
Wilt
Olajuwon
Bill Russell

papipapsmanny
05-29-2018, 08:30 PM
Michael Jordan
LeBron James (might as well put him here a few seasons early, he's getting here anyway)
Magic Johnson
Kareem
Bird
Duncan
Shaq
Wilt
Olajuwon
Bill Russell

To me he is there already, but already a bit too late to ever surpass MJ (And no James winning a crappy east again didn't really nudge the needle)

Jeffy25
05-29-2018, 10:48 PM
At this moment

I'm in the following tiers

Tier 1 (top 2)
Jordan and LeBron

Tier 2 (top 3)
Kareem

Tier 3 (top 9)
Duncan, Shaq, Hakeem, Wilt, Magic, Bird

Tier 4 (top 14)
Kobe, Russell, Robinson, Oscar, Moses

Tier 5 (top 26)
Malone, Stockton, Durant, Curry, Mikan, Miller, Erving, West, Dirk, Garnett, Barkley, Wade


You can be moved one tier up or down within a debate, but not two.

FlashBolt
05-29-2018, 11:45 PM
At this moment

I'm in the following tiers

Tier 1 (top 2)
Jordan and LeBron

Tier 2 (top 3)
Kareem

Tier 3 (top 9)
Duncan, Shaq, Hakeem, Wilt, Magic, Bird

Tier 4 (top 14)
Kobe, Russell, Robinson, Oscar, Moses

Tier 5 (top 26)
Malone, Stockton, Durant, Curry, Mikan, Miller, Erving, West, Dirk, Garnett, Barkley, Wade


You can be moved one tier up or down within a debate, but not two.

I'd put KAJ on that tier 1 category if we're going by career.

papipapsmanny
05-30-2018, 08:24 PM
At this moment

I'm in the following tiers

Tier 1 (top 2)
Jordan and LeBron

Tier 2 (top 3)
Kareem

Tier 3 (top 9)
Duncan, Shaq, Hakeem, Wilt, Magic, Bird

Tier 4 (top 14)
Kobe, Russell, Robinson, Oscar, Moses

Tier 5 (top 26)
Malone, Stockton, Durant, Curry, Mikan, Miller, Erving, West, Dirk, Garnett, Barkley, Wade


You can be moved one tier up or down within a debate, but not two.

I got

Jordan (based off the stats, the rings, the accolades, influence and the fact I don't think a player will be bigger than the league again, oh and Space Jam)

Tier 2
Lebron and Kareem

Rest is basically how you had it

Wrigheyes4MVP
05-31-2018, 03:22 PM
I think Wilt is firmly in the top 4