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mrblisterdundee
05-16-2018, 09:40 PM
The Ringer released its first mock draft for 2018 (https://nbadraft.theringer.com/?_ga=2.105623747.1197144020.1526492250-423222367.1465416794):

1. Suns: Luka Doncic (PG)
2. Kings: DeAndre Ayton (C)
3. Hawks: Jarren Jackson Jr. (F/C)
4. Grizzlies: Mohamed Bamba (C)
5. Mavericks: Michael Porter Jr. (F)
6. Magic: Marvin Bagley III (F/C)
7. Bulls: Miles Bridges (F)
8. Cavalaiers: Mikal Bridges (SF)
9. Knicks: Trae Young (PG)
10. 76ers: Wendell Carter Jr. (C)
11. Hornets: Collin Sexton (PG)
12. Clippers: Troy Brown Jr. (SG)
13. Clippers: Robert Williams (F/C)
14. Nuggets: Shai Gilgeous-Alexander (G)
15. Wizards: Kevin Knox (F)
16. Suns: Lonnie Walker IV (SG)
17. Bucks: Keita Bates-Diop (SF)
18. Spurs: Zhaire Smith (SF)
19. Hawks: Dzanan Musa (SF)
20. Timberwolves: Jacob Evans (SF)
...

Jeffy25
05-16-2018, 11:05 PM
I think the Suns take Ayton, personally.

GREATNESS ONE
05-16-2018, 11:07 PM
Jeffy, update your clubhouse please!

ChI_ShIzzLe
05-16-2018, 11:23 PM
Bulls will draft Mikal not Miles.

tredigs
05-17-2018, 12:03 AM
The Ringer released its first mock draft for 2018 (https://nbadraft.theringer.com/?_ga=2.105623747.1197144020.1526492250-423222367.1465416794):

1. Suns: Luka Doncic (PG)
2. Kings: DeAndre Ayton (C)
3. Hawks: Jarren Jackson Jr. (F/C)
4. Grizzlies: Mohamed Bamba (C)
5. Mavericks: Michael Porter Jr. (F)
6. Magic: Marvin Bagley III (F/C)
7. Bulls: Miles Bridges (F)
8. Cavalaiers: Mikal Bridges (SF)
9. Knicks: Trae Young (PG)
10. 76ers: Wendell Carter Jr. (C)
11. Hornets: Collin Sexton (PG)
12. Clippers: Troy Brown Jr. (SG)
13. Clippers: Robert Williams (F/C)
14. Nuggets: Shai Gilgeous-Alexander (G)
15. Wizards: Kevin Knox (F)
16. Suns: Lonnie Walker IV (SG)
17. Bucks: Keita Bates-Diop (SF)
18. Spurs: Zhaire Smith (SF)
19. Hawks: Dzanan Musa (SF)
20. Timberwolves: Jacob Evans (SF)
...
I like that mock. I think Doncic and Ayton are the superstars, and the Suns have to be leaning Doncic with their HC hire (his old coach). You never know where teams will eventually lean, but that top 10 also seems like the right crop of players. Below that there's a lot of names that I've yet to learn their game. I don't watch a ton of college.

mrblisterdundee
05-17-2018, 12:25 AM
I'm betting Bagley goes ahead of Porter.
I could see the Magic taking Trae Young with the sixth pick. Bagley's great, but he seems to overlap a bit with Gordon, who I think the Magic will max if they have to. They just traded away a shot-less point guard in Payton. They're starting a 30-year-old journeyman at point guard. Young lost some luster later in the season, but he could be a steal if his shot translates.
I wouldn't be surprised if they took Bagley either. He and Gordon would be a nice, athletic front court.

Laker Legend42
05-17-2018, 01:12 AM
I think the Suns take Ayton, personally.

I agree. Played his college ball there which will create a real buzz in the city and that will get fans in the building.

TheDish87
05-17-2018, 10:01 AM
i posted this in the sixers forum during our draft discussion and it works here too i guess.

1. Suns- Ayton. Has the highest ceiling in this class to me with massive Embiid like 2 way potential, just needs to show more of a motor i think but this kid showed steady progression on offense all season and fits too perfectly with that they have in Booker and Jackson.

2. Kings: Who knows what they will do but Id expect Vlade to take Donic here and play him at SF en route to ruining the kids career bcuz he will get torched on D.

3. Hawks: Porter. If not for the back injury he could be going 1 and the Hawks basically have nothing and this kid has at least all star, top scorer potential.

4. Grizz: Jaren Jackson. Fits next to Gasol and could stand to learn a lot from the Grizz traditional style of hard nosed play.

5. Mavs: Wouldnt be shocked to see Cuban going for a potential draw in Trae Young but I like Bagley here while they have Barnes and Smith on the perimeter. He can wreak havoc on the glass on both ends and be double double machine.

6. Magic: I like Sexton here too. They dont have much either and probably have a roster overhaul coming but they have a glaring hole at PG and Sexton gives them everything Payton couldnt.

7. Bulls: Bamba. They need a rim protecting big to compliment Markannen who had a very nice season, should be a really good duo to allow Bamba to focus on defense and rebounding.

8. Cavs: Trae Young. If James stays they add a shooter with serious potential who is also good at creating for others. If James leaves they have an exciting young player to be the focal point and still draw fans.

9. Knicks: Kevin Knox. Good 2 way player who can play with Porz and be a force on the perimter on the defensive end.

10. SIXERS. I think I lean toward Miles Bridges right now since he has the most all around game of the guys I like and can play the 3 and 4. Wont be mad with Wendall Carter or Mikal Bridges among a few others like Gilges-Alexander

JLynn943
05-17-2018, 10:01 AM
Kings should have the easiest decision in the draft. I'm sure there'll be speculation about trading the pick, but I'm hoping they just take whoever Phoenix doesn't take. Doncic or Ayton are good fits with us.

KingstonHawke
05-17-2018, 10:53 AM
Luka is the most overrated player I've seen in a while. Maybe since Jimmer. Seems like every year there's a white player that get's a boost to his draft stock for playing against nothing but second or even third rate athletes.

Everyone will have you focus on the skill level of the European game and disregard the fact that just like in college football you have to subtract a step or two from every play you're watching. I've seen highlights from Luka that against an NBA starter just wouldn't have happened based on the athleticsm alone.

He shouldn't even be considered until pick 10. Sexton and Gilgeous-Alex are my steals of this draft. If Trae Young goes above either than some GM just got himself fired.

TheDish87
05-17-2018, 11:04 AM
eh Jimmer was the 10th pick thats a big difference to how Donic is being talked about. But when athleticism is a concern i have a hard time buying into him as an elite prospect and i hate the 'he plays in the 2nd best league in the world' argument

Heediot
05-17-2018, 11:14 AM
Luka is the most overrated player I've seen in a while. Maybe since Jimmer. Seems like every year there's a white player that get's a boost to his draft stock for playing against nothing but second or even third rate athletes.

Everyone will have you focus on the skill level of the European game and disregard the fact that just like in college football you have to subtract a step or two from every play you're watching. I've seen highlights from Luka that against an NBA starter just wouldn't have happened based on the athleticsm alone.

He shouldn't even be considered until pick 10. Sexton and Gilgeous-Alex are my steals of this draft. If Trae Young goes above either than some GM just got himself fired.

What separates Doncic is his IQ, Feel and court vision. These things are hard to teach. Jimmer, Adam Morrison types were just high level college scorers. Doncic rebounds at a high clip against grown and physically mature men. He has a stout frame so I don't think he gets bullied defensively, but I think he'll be more like Bojan on Indy on that end. His lack of footspeed and no hand check may expose him on that end. On the flip side, with no hand check and less cluttered lanes in the nba, it might help his below par explosiveness on that end. His mind and ability to read defenses and think a few steps ahead will help offset some of that.

I see where your getting at with the great white hope, there's always a over-rated white player due to pretty/efficient college stats like Hansbrough and the guys I've mentioned and more I can't say on top of my head. There's a chance he could be next in line, but I watch enough euroleague to think that his floor is a solid starter. His ceiling is probably Gordon Hayward/Rubio clone with Bojan level defense. There may be a few guys with higher ceilings, but no one with a higher floor IMO.

tredigs
05-17-2018, 11:30 AM
Thank God there's no overrated black players in every draft or else this thing would be super hard to predict.

Heediot
05-17-2018, 11:34 AM
Thank God there's no overrated black players in every draft or else this thing would be super hard to predict.

LOL. Yeah not all athletes translate to the nba either. Sometimes craftiness and feel make up for lack of explosiveness, speed, or whatever. A guy like Manu did pretty good for being almost undrafted.

Heediot
05-17-2018, 11:50 AM
I got a feeling Phoenix goes Doncic if the Coach/GM are risking their futures. Suns GM needs to win soon before he gets canned, and the new coach probably wants to risk his future with a guy he is familiar with and can create a id and style with.

With DA's defense being undeveloped, in the nba even if you have a high scoring young big like Towns, it might not guarantee wins. Bigs (5s) make more impact on defense if your elite there like Gobert, Gasol, Noah (prime).
I don't know if they want to wait for his defense to catch up and they are fired by then. Ayton may end up being the better player, or not, but I got a hunch they will go Doncic here.

tp13baby
05-17-2018, 12:22 PM
Suns- Ayton they need a rebounding, defensive anchor.
Kings- Doncic is a stud in the second best league in the world.
ATL- Porter has arguably the highest ceiling in this draft for a team that
Memphis-Jackson great fit.
Mavs- Bagley has star potential and is a need for a team that needs a big.
Orlando- Trae Young- they desperately need a star type player that will attract attendance.
Bulls- Bamba- a very solid fit next to Lauri
Cleveland-Sexton big name and Grant Hill has shown he has slowed down a ton.
Knicks-Mikal Bridges
Sixers-Knox I feel he is just the better fit cause I donít know how Miles fits an NBA league.
Hornets-Miles Bridges
LAC- Zhaire Smith I love this kid and this is the best fit for him.
LAC- Wendall Carter preparing for Jordan to be gone. He drops in this because of the Centers in front of him.
Denver- Alexander allows Murray to run around screens and play off ball from time to time.
Washington-Robert Williams. DMC wonít go to Washington and Gortat will be traded.
Suns- Musa you can stash him but also provides flexibility with TJ Warren too.
Bucks- Mitchell Robinson a top talent C Cause idk if Maker is that guy.
Spurs- Hutchinson he can do it all and can come in right away and get minutes with Leonard gone.
Hawks- Arnefee simons a high potential guy which the Hawks are needing at this point.
Minnesota- Lonnie Walker is a good bench piece that can give them defense.
.

BostonBoy
05-17-2018, 01:05 PM
Suns would be stupid not to take Ayton. You canít pass on a guy with that level of skill that has the body of a Greek God. He has generational talent so take the upside and hope he hits it.

I donít think Doncic is ever a star in this league. If you watch his tape, his footwork is super slow, he runs slow, and heís just slow in general. High basketball IQ, good passer, good shooter, but the lack of athleticism is going to hurt him in the NBA. I donít think heís a flat out bust because he does have some good skills, but I canít see someone who is so limited athletically becoming a huge star in the league. The only stars in the league with limited athletic ability are 7 footers and even then, theyíre few and far between.

Kings should take whoever is available between Ayton and Michael Porter. Porter gets a bad rap because he rushed back from that back injury and clearly wasnít right. He has immense upside still as a guy that could average 22+/6+ during his peak on pretty efficient shooting numbers. Heíll need to work on his passing game and defense.

I really like Mo Bomba as well. I think his offensive issues are overblown and his defense is really, really good. I could see Ayton, Porter, and Bomba as future all stars whereas Doncic is more of a role player to me.

Iím beginning to feel like this draft class is overhyped but thatís just me. I really feel like last yearís class was way better than this one, yet this class is getting so much talk as being amazing.

Edit: thanks for changing random words, iPhone

Heediot
05-17-2018, 01:39 PM
Suns would be stupid not to take Ayton. You canít pass on a guy with that level of skill that has the body of a Greek God. He has generational talent so take the upside and hope he hits it.

I donít think Doncic is ever a star in this league. If you watch his tape, his footwork is super slow, he runs slow, and heís just slow in general. High basketball IQ, good passer, good shooter, but the lack of athleticism is going to hurt him in the NBA. I donít think heís a flat out bust because he does have some good skills, but I canít see someone who is so limited athletically becoming a huge star in the league. The only stars in the league with limited athletic ability are 7 footers and even then, theyíre few and far between.

Kings should take whoever is available between Ayton and Michael Porter. Porter gets a bad rap because he rushed back from that back injury and clearly wasnít right. He has immense upside still as a guy that could average 22+/6+ during his peak on pretty efficient shooting numbers. Heíll need to work on his passing game and defense.

I really like Mo Bomba as well. I think his offensive issues are overblown and his defense is really, really good. I could see Ayton, Porter, and Bomba as future all stars whereas Doncic is more of a role player to me.

Iím beginning to feel like this draft class is overhyped but thatís just me. I really feel like last yearís class was way better than this one, yet this class is getting so much talk as being amazing.

Edit: thanks for changing random words, iPhone

I think his lateral quickness and explosiveness are issues and causes of treading carefully. I don't see him as a guy that runs the floor slow. The guy runs one of the highest paced offenses in the euroleague.

It's interesting with him, I tend to agree he doesn't have the highest ceiling, but I think he has the lowest bust potential. I think he's such a safe pick and a skilled player, it catapults him up draft boards despite limitations athletically and projected upside.

Lonzo (soon to tell) isn't the greatest athlete, neither is Steph. Brandon Roy etc.. there are plenty of examples of guys using skill/iq/feel to make a name for themselves in the league.

TheDish87
05-17-2018, 02:19 PM
Donic hasnt committed to coming over next season, says he may wait. I cant imagine that helps his stock inside the top 2-3

TylerSL
05-17-2018, 03:48 PM
I feel like Phoenix will end up taking Doncic as well. While they do need a center, they have a big need at point guard as well and at 6'6, 220 lbs, Doncic will be able to play at least both guard positions, probably SF eventually as well. I feel like the Suns will hope/believe that a Booker/Doncic back court duo could resemble Steph/Klay. This is where I see the top 5,

1. Pheonix-Doncic
2. Sacramento-Ayton
3. Atlanta-Bagley
4. Memphis-Jackson Jr
5. Dallas-Bamba

j-bay
05-17-2018, 04:04 PM
Suns- Ayton they need a rebounding, defensive anchor.
Kings- Doncic is a stud in the second best league in the world.
ATL- Porter has arguably the highest ceiling in this draft for a team that
Memphis-Jackson great fit.
Mavs- Bagley has star potential and is a need for a team that needs a big.
Orlando- Trae Young- they desperately need a star type player that will attract attendance.
Bulls- Bamba- a very solid fit next to Lauri
Cleveland-Sexton big name and Grant Hill has shown he has slowed down a ton.
Knicks-Mikal Bridges
Sixers-Knox I feel he is just the better fit cause I donít know how Miles fits an NBA league.
Hornets-Miles Bridges
LAC- Zhaire Smith I love this kid and this is the best fit for him.
LAC- Wendall Carter preparing for Jordan to be gone. He drops in this because of the Centers in front of him.
Denver- Alexander allows Murray to run around screens and play off ball from time to time.
Washington-Robert Williams. DMC wonít go to Washington and Gortat will be traded.
Suns- Musa you can stash him but also provides flexibility with TJ Warren too.
Bucks- Mitchell Robinson a top talent C Cause idk if Maker is that guy.
Spurs- Hutchinson he can do it all and can come in right away and get minutes with Leonard gone.
Hawks- Arnefee simons a high potential guy which the Hawks are needing at this point.
Minnesota- Lonnie Walker is a good bench piece that can give them defense.
.

Can't or Won't.

KingstonHawke
05-18-2018, 04:35 AM
What separates Doncic is his IQ, Feel and court vision. These things are hard to teach. Jimmer, Adam Morrison types were just high level college scorers. Doncic rebounds at a high clip against grown and physically mature men. He has a stout frame so I don't think he gets bullied defensively, but I think he'll be more like Bojan on Indy on that end. His lack of footspeed and no hand check may expose him on that end. On the flip side, with no hand check and less cluttered lanes in the nba, it might help his below par explosiveness on that end. His mind and ability to read defenses and think a few steps ahead will help offset some of that.

I see where your getting at with the great white hope, there's always a over-rated white player due to pretty/efficient college stats like Hansbrough and the guys I've mentioned and more I can't say on top of my head. There's a chance he could be next in line, but I watch enough euroleague to think that his floor is a solid starter. His ceiling is probably Gordon Hayward/Rubio clone with Bojan level defense. There may be a few guys with higher ceilings, but no one with a higher floor IMO.

That intagables argument is my issue. Think about how silly it is that you just said it'd be easier to teach someone to become a great athlete than to develop elite basketball IQ. Also, you think his floor is highest in this draft? Ayton is almost guaranteed to give you a double double no matter what team/coach/system he's drafted to. What is Luka if he's asked to go somewhere where he doesn't get to be ridiculously ball dominant? He's an average spot up shooter with bad defense.


Thank God there's no overrated black players in every draft or else this thing would be super hard to predict.

I get you want to pretend that race doesn't exist. But all you really did by throwing out that strawman is prove that you didn't have a counterargument. Black players get overrated all the time. But you almost never hear that nonsense about their amazing intelligence being more important than everyone else's atheleticism. Seriously, who was the last black player that was a below average athlete but still went top 5 because his percieved high IQ?

Heediot
05-18-2018, 06:40 AM
That intagables argument is my issue. Think about how silly it is that you just said it'd be easier to teach someone to become a great athlete than to develop elite basketball IQ. Also, you think his floor is highest in this draft? Ayton is almost guaranteed to give you a double double no matter what team/coach/system he's drafted to. What is Luka if he's asked to go somewhere where he doesn't get to be ridiculously ball dominant? He's an average spot up shooter with bad defense.

His defense isn't bad in the euroleague, it's just projected to be bad in the nba. He can play on and of the ball. When Slovenia won the european title he played off ball a lot with Dragic. He also played off ball letting Llull and Sergio (a few years ago with Madrid) be the primary ballhandler. He's a streaky shooter for sure, but that's how it is for all guys his age, except a rare few. Doncic isn't ridiculously ball dominant, his role is dependent depending on lineups and mismatches, because he's a positionless player.

Nobody said you could teach someone athleticism. You can develop baskeball IQ sure, but it also helps to have natural feel instincts/vision and thinking the game ahead. Look RW can pass the ball and he has been a high usage ball handler for a decade and his decision making is questionable, just because you rack up assists doesn't mean your a great passer or have good court vision. Some guys play the game as a dominant ball handler and don;t really develop much in certain aspects.

Yes his floor is the highest, that's the only way you can explain why he is a projected top 3 pick, challenging for the top spot with average to even below average athleticism and footspeed. Why else is he so highly regarded? I mean playmaking and court vision can only catapult you so high.

I am not anti Ayton, just putting out my view on Doncic. whom I actually watch on average once per week . He's Lonzo ball with more upside as a scorer. I can see the argument that Ayton has a high floor, but that doesn't mean doncic doesnt have one either.

KingstonHawke
05-18-2018, 11:42 AM
His defense isn't bad in the euroleague, it's just projected to be bad in the nba. He can play on and of the ball. When Slovenia won the european title he played off ball a lot with Dragic. He also played off ball letting Llull and Sergio (a few years ago with Madrid) be the primary ballhandler. He's a streaky shooter for sure, but that's how it is for all guys his age, except a rare few. Doncic isn't ridiculously ball dominant, his role is dependent depending on lineups and mismatches, because he's a positionless player.

Nobody said you could teach someone athleticism. You can develop baskeball IQ sure, but it also helps to have natural feel instincts/vision and thinking the game ahead. Look RW can pass the ball and he has been a high usage ball handler for a decade and his decision making is questionable, just because you rack up assists doesn't mean your a great passer or have good court vision. Some guys play the game as a dominant ball handler and don;t really develop much in certain aspects.

Yes his floor is the highest, that's the only way you can explain why he is a projected top 3 pick, challenging for the top spot with average to even below average athleticism and footspeed. Why else is he so highly regarded? I mean playmaking and court vision can only catapult you so high.

I am not anti Ayton, just putting out my view on Doncic. whom I actually watch on average once per week . He's Lonzo ball with more upside as a scorer. I can see the argument that Ayton has a high floor, but that doesn't mean doncic doesnt have one either.

His defense isn't awful in the Euroleague, it's projected to be awful in the NBA. I would grade his Euroleague defense as below average. I'll link a video I was watching of him the other day that was highlighting some of his stregnths and weaknesses and showed some pretty good examples of what I'm basing that opinion on. If he catches a good matchup he'll look average. But too often he gets bodied by bigger SFs and beat off the dribble by faster ones. Go to 3 minutes in and just watch him defensively...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTHNgEpDoQ8

I'm not saying he can't play off the ball. I'm saying that he's only special if he's allowed to be ball dominant. We agree about his stregnths. I love what he can do in the P&R as a ball handler and his court vision. He reminds me of Lonzo ball in that way. But the more he's off the ball the more he's not getting to make use of those talents. Off the ball you want a catch and shoot guy with great defense. His shooting could improve, but right now it's average at best. And that's against lesser defenders. He's not a positionless player. He's a versatile offensive weapon. But you can only play the positions you can also defend. I don't see him being able to defend a single position consistently. You put him on the court at the same time as Booker and someone's having a career night on the other team.

"Nobody said you could teach someone athleticism." I've been making comparative statements between intellectual and physical potential. When you say that "What separates Doncic is his IQ, Feel and court vision. These things are hard to teach." You're literally making the argument that it's easier to teach athleticism than IQ. Otherwise you're just saying that basketball is hard, and that's obvious.

I think he's being projected top three because he fits a mold of players that always get overvalued. Remember, Saric was being touted as a top 5 pick until he made it clear he wasn't coming over right away.

Funny you also see Lonzo Ball in him (I respond as I read). I just don't see him with more scoring upside. I see him as Lonzo with less scoring upside. While he's the better shooter Lonzo is a much better athlete. It's a lot more likely that Lonzo's shot improves than it is that Doncic will become more athletic. I almost want Doncic to lose 10lbs so that he can play SG.

It's not just Ayton, you're saying he has a better floor than Bagley, Porter, Bamba, and Bridges. Bagley and Porter are going to be matchup nightmares in the NBA. Bamba was born to protect the rim. And Bridges is the protoypical 3 and d wing every team is in need of. If I'm the Suns I'm trading back a few spots.

tredigs
05-18-2018, 11:48 AM
That intagables argument is my issue. Think about how silly it is that you just said it'd be easier to teach someone to become a great athlete than to develop elite basketball IQ. Also, you think his floor is highest in this draft? Ayton is almost guaranteed to give you a double double no matter what team/coach/system he's drafted to. What is Luka if he's asked to go somewhere where he doesn't get to be ridiculously ball dominant? He's an average spot up shooter with bad defense.



I get you want to pretend that race doesn't exist. But all you really did by throwing out that strawman is prove that you didn't have a counterargument. Black players get overrated all the time. But you almost never hear that nonsense about their amazing intelligence being more important than everyone else's atheleticism. Seriously, who was the last black player that was a below average athlete but still went top 5 because his percieved high IQ?

Most black college athletes are very athletic, so you're not going to have much of a crop of players to choose from. CP comes to mind first though. There are certainly 1000x more examples of athletic players being plucked far too high simply because of their size and athleticism. I'm willing to bet the Clips (and countless other teams) would look for another shot at grabbing Dirk instead of Olawakandi. But Dirk was an unathletic euro so they had reservations. I'm thinking the Nuggets are pretty thrilled they took a fligher on the unathletic Euro Nikola Jokic in the 2nd round due to his bbiq and playmaking ability.

Rest assure, Doncic is going to be a STAR in this league. There is more than enough evidence of that watching film of the 18 year old. Has great size, incredible vision + playmaking ability and is an NBA ready scorer. A PROVEN gamer/leader as well. Shocks me anyone could watch him play and not come to the clear conclusion that this teenager will be a perenniel All Star if he stays healthy. He'll join the long list of white non high flyers who are laughably underrated by some due to their skin tone and lack of a 40" vert.


Out of curiosity, what is the list of black guys with no athleticism and a high bbiq that went way too low? Since that is the flip side of your question.

Heediot
05-18-2018, 12:03 PM
His defense isn't awful in the Euroleague, it's projected to be awful in the NBA. I would grade his Euroleague defense as below average. I'll link a video I was watching of him the other day that was highlighting some of his stregnths and weaknesses and showed some pretty good examples of what I'm basing that opinion on. If he catches a good matchup he'll look average. But too often he gets bodied by bigger SFs and beat off the dribble by faster ones. Go to 3 minutes in and just watch him defensively...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTHNgEpDoQ8

I'm not saying he can't play off the ball. I'm saying that he's only special if he's allowed to be ball dominant. We agree about his stregnths. I love what he can do in the P&R as a ball handler and his court vision. He reminds me of Lonzo ball in that way. But the more he's off the ball the more he's not getting to make use of those talents. Off the ball you want a catch and shoot guy with great defense. His shooting could improve, but right now it's average at best. And that's against lesser defenders. He's not a positionless player. He's a versatile offensive weapon. But you can only play the positions you can also defend. I don't see him being able to defend a single position consistently. You put him on the court at the same time as Booker and someone's having a career night on the other team.

"Nobody said you could teach someone athleticism." I've been making comparative statements between intellectual and physical potential. When you say that "What separates Doncic is his IQ, Feel and court vision. These things are hard to teach." You're literally making the argument that it's easier to teach athleticism than IQ. Otherwise you're just saying that basketball is hard, and that's obvious.

I think he's being projected top three because he fits a mold of players that always get overvalued. Remember, Saric was being touted as a top 5 pick until he made it clear he wasn't coming over right away.

Funny you also see Lonzo Ball in him (I respond as I read). I just don't see him with more scoring upside. I see him as Lonzo with less scoring upside. While he's the better shooter Lonzo is a much better athlete. It's a lot more likely that Lonzo's shot improves than it is that Doncic will become more athletic. I almost want Doncic to lose 10lbs so that he can play SG.

It's not just Ayton, you're saying he has a better floor than Bagley, Porter, Bamba, and Bridges. Bagley and Porter are going to be matchup nightmares in the NBA. Bamba was born to protect the rim. And Bridges is the protoypical 3 and d wing every team is in need of. If I'm the Suns I'm trading back a few spots.

Most people admit he has flaws and weaknesses and your show harping on them. All these prospects have flaws and weaknesses. If you like the more athletic prospect, it's all good then that's your preference. Me personally, I take it by the individual,

The guy is going to be all euroleague first team as a 18-19 YO, and might even be MVP. That is why everyone thinks he's a safe pick and has a high floor. Your mixing floor with any kind of potential, just thowing out Bamba's name as having a higher floor tells me you define in it your own way. Bamba is a boom or bust prospect, kinda like Thabeet was, and some other uber athletic big who only showed flashes of offense in college but had raw tools, and fared well defensively.

The reason why Doncic has a higher floor is because of his seasoned/mature game, and is was against better and more mature competition then college. Euroleague defense is way more complex and the concepts and plays the guy has to learn is well beyond 95 percent of what a college prospect most likely has to take in. He is the least raw of the top prospects which also helps his case as having a higher floor.

I'm not mixing **** all up, your pretty much making up your own comparisons. Just because you highlight one persons strength which in Doncic case is iq/feel/vision doesn't take away from another if it's athleticism or whatever else.

I'm done responding, I can feel its a waste of time and going to go in circles. We can agree to disagree and let the man's play do the talking.

Mr.ATLHawks
05-18-2018, 01:02 PM
i posted this in the sixers forum during our draft discussion and it works here too i guess.

1. Suns- Ayton. Has the highest ceiling in this class to me with massive Embiid like 2 way potential, just needs to show more of a motor i think but this kid showed steady progression on offense all season and fits too perfectly with that they have in Booker and Jackson.

2. Kings: Who knows what they will do but Id expect Vlade to take Donic here and play him at SF en route to ruining the kids career bcuz he will get torched on D.

3. Hawks: Porter. If not for the back injury he could be going 1 and the Hawks basically have nothing and this kid has at least all star, top scorer potential.

4. Grizz: Jaren Jackson. Fits next to Gasol and could stand to learn a lot from the Grizz traditional style of hard nosed play.

5. Mavs: Wouldnt be shocked to see Cuban going for a potential draw in Trae Young but I like Bagley here while they have Barnes and Smith on the perimeter. He can wreak havoc on the glass on both ends and be double double machine.

6. Magic: I like Sexton here too. They dont have much either and probably have a roster overhaul coming but they have a glaring hole at PG and Sexton gives them everything Payton couldnt.

7. Bulls: Bamba. They need a rim protecting big to compliment Markannen who had a very nice season, should be a really good duo to allow Bamba to focus on defense and rebounding.

8. Cavs: Trae Young. If James stays they add a shooter with serious potential who is also good at creating for others. If James leaves they have an exciting young player to be the focal point and still draw fans.

9. Knicks: Kevin Knox. Good 2 way player who can play with Porz and be a force on the perimter on the defensive end.

10. SIXERS. I think I lean toward Miles Bridges right now since he has the most all around game of the guys I like and can play the 3 and 4. Wont be mad with Wendall Carter or Mikal Bridges among a few others like Gilges-Alexander


I like this mock alot better. We drafted John Collins (PF) last year and I cant see us taking Jaren Jackson this year that high. Taurean Prince (SF) really came into his own end of last year dropping 30+ PPG quite a few times. I like the Porter pick but i think they take Bamba as we also need an interior presence and its hard to deny his length and defensive capabilities. He has the ability to shoot the 3, although not at a very good percentage in college, that can be worked on. Dennis Schroder is also apparently looking togo to Bucks or Pacers so we'll see how that shakes up we may be needing a PG as well which might make Colin Sexton, from Mableton GA, an intriguing option. We have 3 First rounders as well which could be an interesting trade package to move up, etc. If we walked out with Ayton and Sexton id be a happy camper

Mr.ATLHawks
05-18-2018, 01:10 PM
Im skeptical on Doncic as well but from all the tape ive seen the kid has excellent vision and makes the right basketball plays and has succeded on every level he's been on despite his young age. . Rubio had this kind of hype coming in and although i think Rubio is an excellent PG I wouldnt say hes quite lived up to the hype.

tredigs
05-18-2018, 03:44 PM
Im skeptical on Doncic as well but from all the tape ive seen the kid has excellent vision and makes the right basketball plays and has succeded on every level he's been on despite his young age. . Rubio had this kind of hype coming in and although i think Rubio is an excellent PG I wouldnt say hes quite lived up to the hype.

Rubio did not have Doncic's hype other than entertainment appeal, and rightfully so. Doncic is a far better prospect with his size and jump shot to accompany the playmaking. That said, I think Rubio is at least average for a #5 pick. The following #5's were Cousins, Valancunius, Thomas Robinson, Alex Len, Hezonja, Dunn, Fox. Not exactly murderers row.

TheDish87
05-18-2018, 03:50 PM
I like this mock alot better. We drafted John Collins (PF) last year and I cant see us taking Jaren Jackson this year that high. Taurean Prince (SF) really came into his own end of last year dropping 30+ PPG quite a few times. I like the Porter pick but i think they take Bamba as we also need an interior presence and its hard to deny his length and defensive capabilities. He has the ability to shoot the 3, although not at a very good percentage in college, that can be worked on. Dennis Schroder is also apparently looking togo to Bucks or Pacers so we'll see how that shakes up we may be needing a PG as well which might make Colin Sexton, from Mableton GA, an intriguing option. We have 3 First rounders as well which could be an interesting trade package to move up, etc. If we walked out with Ayton and Sexton id be a happy camper

i like Porter for ATL bcuz its a chance to get a star player to build around, Bamba doesnt have that type of upside and guys like him can be found every year for the most part. Prince will be a fine player but hes a role player and wouldnt stop the Hawks from taking Porter.

HowFit
05-18-2018, 05:05 PM
I like this mock alot better. We drafted John Collins (PF) last year and I cant see us taking Jaren Jackson this year that high. Taurean Prince (SF) really came into his own end of last year dropping 30+ PPG quite a few times. I like the Porter pick but i think they take Bamba as we also need an interior presence and its hard to deny his length and defensive capabilities. He has the ability to shoot the 3, although not at a very good percentage in college, that can be worked on. Dennis Schroder is also apparently looking togo to Bucks or Pacers so we'll see how that shakes up we may be needing a PG as well which might make Colin Sexton, from Mableton GA, an intriguing option. We have 3 First rounders as well which could be an interesting trade package to move up, etc. If we walked out with Ayton and Sexton id be a happy camper

Prince was something else in the 2nd half, especially behind the arc. For the Hawks, I think they need to trade up and trade down along with trading Schroder for future pick. Not sure how that can work but stranger things had happened. Draft Trae Young with their 1st pick (move down 5th or 6th?) and group other picks to move up to get Bamba. Bamba playing alongside with Collins would be quite a duo...

Young
Prince
Collins
Bamba
Bazemore

Dorsey, Dedmon, Illasova, etc all play off the bench

KingstonHawke
05-18-2018, 06:02 PM
Most black college athletes are very athletic, so you're not going to have much of a crop of players to choose from. CP comes to mind first though. There are certainly 1000x more examples of athletic players being plucked far too high simply because of their size and athleticism. I'm willing to bet the Clips (and countless other teams) would look for another shot at grabbing Dirk instead of Olawakandi. But Dirk was an unathletic euro so they had reservations. I'm thinking the Nuggets are pretty thrilled they took a fligher on the unathletic Euro Nikola Jokic in the 2nd round due to his bbiq and playmaking ability.

Rest assure, Doncic is going to be a STAR in this league. There is more than enough evidence of that watching film of the 18 year old. Has great size, incredible vision + playmaking ability and is an NBA ready scorer. A PROVEN gamer/leader as well. Shocks me anyone could watch him play and not come to the clear conclusion that this teenager will be a perenniel All Star if he stays healthy. He'll join the long list of white non high flyers who are laughably underrated by some due to their skin tone and lack of a 40" vert.


Out of curiosity, what is the list of black guys with no athleticism and a high bbiq that went way too low? Since that is the flip side of your question.

Why do people keep trying to move the goalpost to athletic players being overvalued? Athletic players are overvalued regardless of race. My point is that unathletic black players aren't ever overvalued based on IQ. And I'm going to pretend like you didn't call Chris Paul unathletic. Not like he had a 39 inch vertical coming out of college and was one of the quickest PGs of all time.



Most people admit he has flaws and weaknesses and your show harping on them. All these prospects have flaws and weaknesses. If you like the more athletic prospect, it's all good then that's your preference. Me personally, I take it by the individual,

The guy is going to be all euroleague first team as a 18-19 YO, and might even be MVP. That is why everyone thinks he's a safe pick and has a high floor. Your mixing floor with any kind of potential, just thowing out Bamba's name as having a higher floor tells me you define in it your own way. Bamba is a boom or bust prospect, kinda like Thabeet was, and some other uber athletic big who only showed flashes of offense in college but had raw tools, and fared well defensively.

The reason why Doncic has a higher floor is because of his seasoned/mature game, and is was against better and more mature competition then college. Euroleague defense is way more complex and the concepts and plays the guy has to learn is well beyond 95 percent of what a college prospect most likely has to take in. He is the least raw of the top prospects which also helps his case as having a higher floor.

I'm not mixing **** all up, your pretty much making up your own comparisons. Just because you highlight one persons strength which in Doncic case is iq/feel/vision doesn't take away from another if it's athleticism or whatever else.

I'm done responding, I can feel its a waste of time and going to go in circles. We can agree to disagree and let the man's play do the talking.

It's perfectly fine for us to have a differing of opinion and then to debate those opinions respectfully, that's sort of the point of this entire site...

I'm just not nearly as high on Luka as the rest of you seem to be. Of course all prospects are imperfect. But when you're talking about highest floor I'm thinking you're talking about someone who you know 100% is going to contribute regardless of the team that drafts him. Bamba is going to be able to protect the rim and finish at the rim no matter where he lands, he's WAY more mobile than Thabeet was with a much longer wingspan as well. If he stays healthy he's almost guaranteed to be in the league for 10 years. I don't feel that way about almost any player that's dependent on the P&R to be at his best and isn't a knock down shooter. I said the same thing about Lonzo and took a lot of heat for trashing him. But look, when he's been able to dominate the ball he's had some great nights. As soon as he wasn't identified as the best player and was asked to supplement someone else he's not worth a top 10 selection. That's Luka, if you build an entire team around him he could be a star, but that team won't ever be special.

Euroleague defense isn't more complex. They just help and rotate more because everyone is slow and can't beat a pick and roll to save their life. The pick and roll isn't even overly complicated from the ball handlers perspective...

If your man goes under take the step back three. If he goes over then read the big man. If the big stays back take the midrange. If the big hedges beat him off the dribble. If a third man rotates then his man is ALWAYS open. Simple as hell, rinse and repeat. But what can you do when you're on the court with Elfrid Payton and we send his man to rotate constantly and gift him open threes all game? I made the same argument about why Curry is better than prime Wade. Wade make LeBron worse because he needed the ball in his hands to be at his best. Curry gives you that same P&R ability, but with a better 3pt ability, a better midrange ability, and the option to simply play off the ball and be one of the all time best spot up shooters.

Your boy can be good, but if he's taken #1 overall and they don't trade away half the team to make room for him he's going to bust.

KingstonHawke
05-18-2018, 06:54 PM
I like this mock alot better. We drafted John Collins (PF) last year and I cant see us taking Jaren Jackson this year that high. Taurean Prince (SF) really came into his own end of last year dropping 30+ PPG quite a few times. I like the Porter pick but i think they take Bamba as we also need an interior presence and its hard to deny his length and defensive capabilities. He has the ability to shoot the 3, although not at a very good percentage in college, that can be worked on. Dennis Schroder is also apparently looking togo to Bucks or Pacers so we'll see how that shakes up we may be needing a PG as well which might make Colin Sexton, from Mableton GA, an intriguing option. We have 3 First rounders as well which could be an interesting trade package to move up, etc. If we walked out with Ayton and Sexton id be a happy camper

The Hawks should do everything they can to move up and take Ayton. Collins and Ayton would be a great core moving forward. Suns need a PG, and Hawks have cap space. Maybe all it would take is giving them Schroder to swap up two spots.

DamnGoat
05-18-2018, 07:19 PM
I'd be pretty thrilled with getting Bamba as a Bulls fan. I think he compliments Lauri pretty well and I like that he's been working on his jumper since the season ended. He has nice form, a good stroke for his size. Overall, super raw as a prospect, but not hard to see the tremendous upside with him.

KnicksorBust
05-19-2018, 09:45 AM
The Ringer released its first mock draft for 2018 (https://nbadraft.theringer.com/?_ga=2.105623747.1197144020.1526492250-423222367.1465416794):

1. Suns: Luka Doncic (PG)
2. Kings: DeAndre Ayton (C)
3. Hawks: Jarren Jackson Jr. (F/C)
4. Grizzlies: Mohamed Bamba (C)
5. Mavericks: Michael Porter Jr. (F)
6. Magic: Marvin Bagley III (F/C)
7. Bulls: Miles Bridges (F)
8. Cavalaiers: Mikal Bridges (SF)
9. Knicks: Trae Young (PG)
10. 76ers: Wendell Carter Jr. (C)
11. Hornets: Collin Sexton (PG)
12. Clippers: Troy Brown Jr. (SG)
13. Clippers: Robert Williams (F/C)
14. Nuggets: Shai Gilgeous-Alexander (G)
15. Wizards: Kevin Knox (F)
16. Suns: Lonnie Walker IV (SG)
17. Bucks: Keita Bates-Diop (SF)
18. Spurs: Zhaire Smith (SF)
19. Hawks: Dzanan Musa (SF)
20. Timberwolves: Jacob Evans (SF)
...

I would be thrilled.

Heediot
05-20-2018, 04:20 PM
Doncic, named Euroleague MVP, Euroleague Final Four MVP. Madrid wins the title, Slovenia the european championship (making all tournament first team). Pretty strong and unprecedented accomplishments for a european his age. The guy plays big in big moments and doesn't shrink to the stage.

TheDish87
05-21-2018, 08:45 AM
already rumors of him falling out of top 3.

Tg11
05-22-2018, 06:11 PM
The Ringer released its first mock draft for 2018 (https://nbadraft.theringer.com/?_ga=2.105623747.1197144020.1526492250-423222367.1465416794):

1. Suns: Luka Doncic (PG)
2. Kings: DeAndre Ayton (C)
3. Hawks: Jarren Jackson Jr. (F/C)
4. Grizzlies: Mohamed Bamba (C)
5. Mavericks: Michael Porter Jr. (F)
6. Magic: Marvin Bagley III (F/C)
7. Bulls: Miles Bridges (F)
8. Cavalaiers: Mikal Bridges (SF)
9. Knicks: Trae Young (PG)
10. 76ers: Wendell Carter Jr. (C)
11. Hornets: Collin Sexton (PG)
12. Clippers: Troy Brown Jr. (SG)
13. Clippers: Robert Williams (F/C)
14. Nuggets: Shai Gilgeous-Alexander (G)
15. Wizards: Kevin Knox (F)
16. Suns: Lonnie Walker IV (SG)
17. Bucks: Keita Bates-Diop (SF)
18. Spurs: Zhaire Smith (SF)
19. Hawks: Dzanan Musa (SF)
20. Timberwolves: Jacob Evans (SF)
...

I say Ayton goes #1 and Luka goes #2

LeonFSU
05-23-2018, 10:59 AM
Seriously, who was the last black player that was a below average athlete but still went top 5 because his percieved high IQ?

Maybe Harden